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Posted by: redwulf25 May 17 2011, 03:59 AM

Is there a way to increase the body of a drone or the number of slots it has for modifications? I'd like to really pimp out a Transys Steed for a Paraplegic rigger character but 4 slots isn't a lot of room for customizing.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 17 2011, 04:03 AM

Well, no.

BUT, as i see it body-enhancements should be possible. (Even massive ones, at least in design of new drones). I think it should be likely increasing bulk and decreasing speed and especially acceleration and energy efficiancy though.

EDIT: Oh, and screws up the price MASSIVELY... one of the pointers would be that the high-quality cyborg drones (which have unusual high body scores) are incredible expensive.

Posted by: SpellBinder May 17 2011, 04:10 AM

Well, there's the Limited Maneuverability mod that gives 4 mod slots, but then you'll have to be pushed everywhere in your Transys Steed instead of having it roll you there.

Besides, it's right in Arsenal (page 129) that anything beyond the set number of slots for an item is up to GM's discretion. It's possible to overmod something, but I'd expect to pay through the nose for it.

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 08:52 PM

Use a Horseman with an advanced cargo module. Bonus points if you put an enhanced rigger cocoon in it. That will give you 6 body. 5 with a cocoon, 4 with an enhanced rigger cocoon, to play with.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 08:59 PM

You can just Overmodify, as Spellbinder mentioned.

You can also choose… *any* other vehicle for your guy.

sabs, what's this 'cocoon vs. enhanced cocoon' stuff?

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 08:59 PM

Technically the spell increase attribute [Body] offers a way.
Since it is a physical spell it can effect technological devices.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 17 2011, 09:00 PM

And would look ridiculous. And also may not be enough body. EDIT: The Cargo Module i mean.

Well, if you are only after modification slots: Yeah, just ask your gm for overmodification. (I myself allow it easily for my players. Depending on what they cram into their drones they of course become slower, or have energy problems, or higher handling, unreliability issues, or software/hardware screwups)

But for body: If a drone is built not for the mass market and with superior workmanship and especially materials you should get a higher body attribute. (For example the standard- medium Otomo drone has body 6, the big cousin -bigger than a troll- has 10, and they can be outfitted with higher strength with gm- approvel too). Much needed for drones to keep up with living squishies, i mean what are machines known for? Power, speed and endurance.

Body attribute is pretty much working just like body+strength on a critter... normal drones are a bit on the weaker end for some reason.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 09:02 PM

It's pretty clear that Increase [Attribute] is for people, Irion. If you need a reason not to cheat, let's say that an Object can't be a 'voluntary subject'.

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 09:05 PM

Rigger Cocoon (Standard):
Armor 20, Structural Rating 10, increases resist pool for crashes and stuff by 5
Rigger Cocoon(Enhanced ):
Same, but also has the capabilities of a Valkyrie Module.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 09:08 PM

Oh, weird. I've literally never heard of that, despite everything.

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 09:10 PM

standard cocoon is 1 mod slot, enhanced is 2
I always get the enhanced version. Combine it with an agent and medical autosoft.. it is the awesome

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 09:10 PM

Thats said at no point.

Darn it, thats the only RAW weakness. But I could argue that unconscious persons count as voluntary so objects beeing permanent unconscious would count to.
(My point is more: Why the hell are some health spells physical as Mana (only affecting living beeings) would fit perfectly.)

(Thats like the argument that you should be allowed to shapchange into a human. That was silly too. (And made its way in the FAQ)

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 09:11 PM

Because Mana spells can be cast on the astral.
And Physical cannot.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2011, 09:16 PM

Get a higher body vehicle and give it rigger adaptation. Voila, a drone with a higher body. If it has to be a horse, add on walker mode.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 17 2011, 09:28 PM

The Horseman isn't even a horse. Er, the Steed.

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 09:29 PM

The steed is a terrible drone, it's a walking wheelchair. It's completely exposed.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 09:34 PM

So?
(There are some spells where it would make sence as Nutrition or Antidote/Detox. The later is a mana spell of course. )

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 17 2011, 10:32 PM

If it's a drone motorcycle, a sidecar will add Body.





-k

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 17 2011, 11:02 PM

You beat me to it. Sidecar increases body. It would look... unusual... on a wheelchair, but it doesn't sound entirely implausible.

So I wonder if three mod slots suffice to fit in a nuke?

Posted by: Bodak May 17 2011, 11:41 PM

Just note that you cannot have anything higher than Rating 6 at character generation. Higher armour can be added once play starts, however, of course.

It has never made sense to me that the enhanced version's Availability is so much harder than the Valkyrie module on its own or the standard cocoon on its own.

In SR3 the Increase Attribute spells were Mana spells for unaugmented attributes. If you wanted to boost an attribute already enhanced by (physical, technological, non-living) cyberware you had to cast the Physical version of the spell (as you were no longer affecting living tissue, but technological devices). That whole "paid for with essence" insanity didn't seem to cut the mustard in that situation.

Posted by: sabs May 17 2011, 11:51 PM

I would argue that a rigger cocoon is completely the exception to that rating rule.
The availability on that cocoon is very low.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 18 2011, 12:02 AM

I don't think rigger cocoons were meant to be subject to the Rating restriction; there aren't Rating 1-10 rigger cocoons after all. The armor and structure ratings are more subsidiary stats that I don't think fall under that restriction. Just like the walls of a medium house might have an armor rating above 6; I don't think it should be an issue.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 18 2011, 01:28 AM

It was largely a concept exercise, take a wheel chair drone and mod it into a bad ass engine of doom for a paraplegic rigger. But it looks like the best I can do without over moding and taking penalties is either a weapon mount or both engine mods. I considered putting a manipulator arm on it but unless I buggered my metric to imperial conversion or read the formula for the arms size wrong it would barely be over 7 inches. That's not an arm, it's a penis with fingers.



Sorry for that mental image, you're out of luck I've no brain bleach left to pass out to the rest of you.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 18 2011, 04:10 AM

I do believe that's the reason why you install a rigger cocoon on the steed. Armor 20 Structure rating 10 is fairly decent at protecting oneself. The biggest reason I can see using a steed is for the stair climbing and price. If you don't want that, you could likely wrap yourself heavily in armor to the point you can barely move (or cannot move).

In a related note, I don't think your body holder needs to be an offensive powerhouse. It should be tough and safe. If you really need to keep up with teammates, speed becomes useful. But you can leave your carrier in auto-mode while you joystick your combat drones.

With some creative reading, you can make an Iron Will into your body carrier and fighter. It's got Body 6 and can take vehicle mods. Put in rigger adaptation, armor, upgrade response, and maybe a gun. Then you disable the RAS override on your commlink (it's a fairly easy hardware test). Jump into it though the drone. Since your body is moving based on the commands you're sending out, it can provide movement for the Iron Will. I wouldn't actually recommending trying to get this by the GM though. It'll ping his munchkin alarms and is probably illegal RAW. Then again who knows with the mess that is the Iron Will.

Posted by: The Jopp May 18 2011, 08:07 AM

It seems you all forget the "similar models" rule from Arsenal.

So you could make a more (for example) medium drone (BOD 3) into a medium drone BOD 4. Size wouldnt change but the design could be more robust. Disadvantages could be less sensor strength or acceleration or maximum speed.

It gives players and GM's nice flexibility, not to mention rather frightening BOD 5 heavy drones.

Posted by: HeckfyEx May 18 2011, 02:19 PM

Street Magic, p.160.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 18 2011, 02:26 PM

Think it was Synner who posted some cut content from Arsenal regarding increasing Body. If I can find it I'll post link.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 18 2011, 02:34 PM

Posted by Synner many moons ago while still developer.

Posted by: Irion May 18 2011, 03:08 PM

@HeckfyEx
Thank you.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 18 2011, 04:37 PM

Thanks for pointing that out. Won't help much for the Steed as it's body of 2 would only go up to 3, which is still only 4 slots for mods, but good to keep in mind for other drones.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 18 2011, 06:48 PM

HeckfyEx, you're not helping! I was trying to discourage Irion from his crazy munchkinism. Hehehe.

I'd be extra careful of Similar Models for drones, given the very rigorous way they're grouped into Bod 1, 2, 3, or 4. (Cyborgs break the 'rule'. ) Giving a Similar Model drone a +1 Body is kind of a huge difference. I'm not a fan of that rigorous 1-4 setup, personally, but there it is.

Posted by: Falconer May 19 2011, 02:51 AM

Prime:

Yes, the catch is you don't get additional mod slots for doing it... it takes 1 mod slot to add 1 body... on a medium or smaller drone that doesn't help much (as slots are 4 or body whichever is greater).

The biggest reason to do that mod is on a large drone like a steel lynx... drones (which are supposed to be unmanned...) get up to 3x body in armor... so suddenly.. you can make a steel lynx bigger and heavier... and slam 20 points of armor on the sucker (body 7... 20 armor max) instead of the normal 12 max on a drone.

The only other reason I can think to do it is ramming...

For drones where you don't want to waste a mod slot to upgrade their armor, you could use it for a freebie extra 3 dice of body soak (and an extra physical box or two on the damage track). Though it's costly to try and pull that one.

I always figured drones don't have a passenger compartment so they were easier to armor (hence the body * 3, instead of the body * 2 limit passenger vehicles have). Also since they don't have to move much more than their own weight, they generally don't have a large payload capacity compared to a larger passenger/cargo vehicle.

Posted by: The Jopp May 19 2011, 06:17 PM

It could be abused but since you MUST pick a disadvantage I know the GM would exploit it sooner or later, and aside from the occassional powergamer it gives the game flavor.

One should also mention that using a "similar" model might still be something that stand out, I might choose to give it the "Distinctive Style" negative quality to represent that it is a rather unique import or model that is distinct from any other.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 07:50 PM

Additionally,


Object resistance does apply, though.

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 07:53 PM

You could easily argue that Increase Body (for a Metahuman) would not work on an Object. While the two use the term 'body' they are not strictly speaking the same stat.

Increase body is a HEALTH Spell. Machines do not have health.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 08:05 PM

bad reasoning, sabs.

the Category of the spell doesn't matter at all. Its Type(Physical or Mana does).

Unless you want to expand your arguement to Physical Spells In General Do Not Effect Machines, Because they do not have health.

There are already rules in play to account for this. As pointed out already by Hecky, objects count as voluntary targets, and increase attribute needs a voluntary target. Problem solved.

An object is, however, an object with some amount of resistance to the manipulations of magic. Rules are again provided for this, in the form of Object Resistance.

Sweet. Magi-tech here we come.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 19 2011, 08:08 PM

No, I like the Health argument. Show me a counter-example, hehe.

We know from the beginning that Increase [Attribute] is not for machines—it's a similar, but clearer, version of the 'Reinforce is only for objects' question. It's a coincidence that vehicle Body and metahuman/critter Body are the same name. We're just looking (as a fun exercise) for a rules-lawyer reason.

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:13 PM

Health spells can heal physical injury, cure diseases (or inflict them), detoxify poisons or drugs (or mimic their effects), as well as modify attributes. No techniques currently known to magic can erase Stun damage or cure psychological conditions.

A version of this spell exists for each Physical and Mental attribute, but not for Special attributes.


Vehicles have a number of attributes that are relevant to vehicle combat.

Vehicle Body
Vehicle Body functions much like a character’s Body, and is primarily used for damage resistance tests.

Rules Lawyer out of this one

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:42 PM

Well....

I am sure that you can boost Vehicle stats with Magic... I would require you to generate a new spell to do so however... Vehicle body Functions LIKE Metahuman Body, but not the same. Thus necessitating a new spell entirely. I would have you make it a Manipulation spell, as well...

How was that?

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:44 PM

Okay
I'd allow it.

it's only useful on drones, and some motorcycles anyways

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:47 PM

Always works for me... Higher OR is its own punishment, though I do not see it going much higher than 6-7...
Of course, who tries to overcome OR 6-7 on a regular basis? Certainly not any of MY magically awakened characters...

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:48 PM

The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:50 PM

True, I was more concerned about the OR, however... That is going to give you more of a limit than the Force the spell is cast at... If you MUST cast at Force 12 and have an OR of 6, that is crazy whacked...

All for a potential bonus of a single point of gained attribute? No Thanks

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:52 PM

The OR just means you need to cast the thing at Force 7, just to get a 1 point increase in body.
Now the spell is only F/2 -2 . So 4P DV isn't terrible to resist, but it aint pretty.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 08:54 PM

Could be quite Brutal...

Posted by: Fauxknight May 19 2011, 08:57 PM

Thats an incredibly vague rule that needs to be ignored for certain things. If you start counting armor as rating then a good deal of listed armor suites and vehicles would all have to be throw out for character creation. The availability cap is a much more reasonable rule.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 19 2011, 09:05 PM

Cannot be quoted enough... Armor does not Come in RATINGS...

Programs have Ratings (Stealth 1-6)
Armor does not have Ratings... An Armored Jacket is an Armored Jacket... You cannot buy an Armored Jacket Rating 2...

Should be simple enough...

Posted by: Bodak May 19 2011, 11:43 PM

However, you can give a vehicle an armour upgrade; this armour upgrade has a rating.

Mea culpa regarding the inherent armour value of pre-existing stock items such as the cocoon itself or an armoured jacket. Of course, these come off the shelf with their respective armour values. I had mistakenly thought the post was referring to modifying a drone with a rating 20 armour upgrade.

Posted by: sabs May 20 2011, 12:25 AM

It's a way to get a 1 person vehicle with 23 points of armor protecting the user

Posted by: Bodak May 20 2011, 01:38 PM

"The rigger cocoon has an Armor rating of 20 and a Structure rating of 10" (AR142). Armour (AR132) "What helps them to survive this is good old-fashioned armor, rated from 1 to 20." Also "Personal armor has a rating of 1 to 10, which is added as a dice pool bonus to any test to avoid damage inflicted by outside sources onto passengers." (AR141) In all these cases, armour is described as having a rating. The ratings of the Armour and the Personal Armour upgrades are limited to 6 at character generation.
I don't really follow your reasoning for calling it "very low". You cannot get the enhanced cocoon (which we're both talking about) at character generation without the Restricted Gear quality. To my way of thinking, that immediately disqualifies it from having a "very low" availability.

You see both of the Rigger Cocoons listed in a table on AR141. "The enhanced version of the cocoon includes the capabilities of a valkyrie module (p. 146)," (AR142). The Valkyrie Module is listed in a table on AR143.

Basic Cocoon is 1500Y, availability 8.
Valkyrie Module is 2000Y, availability 10.
Enhanced Cocoon is 4000Y, availability 14R.

I could understand if someone installed an availability 10 item inside an availability 8 item and called it availability 10. The installation took a bit of (automated) labour so maybe availability 11 or if you're hours from a mechanic, 12. But 14R? If you put a valkyrie module in your basic cocoon you don't suddenly have to get a licence for the combo. Like I said, it has never made sense to me.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 02:08 PM

Bodak...

Individual Vehicle Armor Comes in Ratings (Rating 1-20)
Personal Vehicle Armor Comes in Ratings (Rating 1-10)

A Rigger Cocoon has no ratings, even though it has Armor 20.

Worn Armor DOES NOT COME IN RATINGS. They have an Intrinsic Armor Rating, but that is not the same thing, and is not limited at character Creation. I could purchase Military Grade Armor if I wanted to do so (and spent the Restricted Gear Quality) because Personal Armor is not Rated...

You are talking about Apples and Oranges. Your line of reasoning would eliminate most trucks, some cars and even a Motorcycle , some low end security vehicles, and even some drones from being purchased, even though they fall well within Availability limits. You do not include Non-Rated equipment in the Ratings above 6 limitation.

Not even sure where you got that idea from...

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 20 2011, 02:51 PM

In general, SR isn't terribly strict on language; many things are formulated fuzzily, perhaps in the interests of readability. I think this is one of those cases; not every instance of the word Rating means the same thing.

I think the best interpretation is that the Rating 6 cap only applies to things where the Rating is something in the price of the item, i.e. "Rating * blah " stuff. Items where the Rating is some sort of variable that you have a choice in, such as vehicle armor.

"Constant" ratings, such as the rigger cocoon, are something different, imho. They weren't meant to be included under that cap; you can't choose to pick a lower rating.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 03:21 PM

Agreed... Thank You for creating clarity, where before there was only confusion.

Posted by: Bodak May 20 2011, 11:37 PM

I think all I can do here is repeat:

I'm still very curious to hear sabs rationale on cocoons though.

Posted by: sabs May 21 2011, 04:30 AM

they're Awesome?
Horseman + Cocoon is a great combo for running around night invulnerable?


Because of the way barriers and vehicle armor rules work, you end up being behind 23 points of armor. It's amazingly good.

Posted by: Bodak May 21 2011, 07:52 AM

That doesn't address why you think availability 14R is "very low".

I can understand always getting the enhanced cocoon because it is better. I can understand how it is better. But "it has never made sense to me that the enhanced version's Availability is so much harder than the Valkyrie module on its own or the standard cocoon on its own." That's what I'm curious about.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 21 2011, 02:33 PM

Becasue the Enhanced Rigger Coccoon has BOTH in ONE MOD. That is why it has a higher availability.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 21 2011, 05:01 PM

Remember that Availability isn't just how hard it is to get in the legal sense, also mixed in there is the plain rarity of the item.

If there aren't many buyers of a particular product, then it probably going to harder to get one. You may have to go through specialty suppliers. While there are plenty of buyers of rigger cocoons and valkyrie units, probably there are far fewer buyers that need BOTH in one package.

The market here is pretty much purely combat riggers. It's really a tiny market.



-k