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Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 11:50 AM

Our GM now refuses to accept metavariants in combination with Surge. I created an fomori-mystic adept with 5 power points (hardmaxed magic) and i urgently need a higher agility. I am not going to implant ´ware and i lack spellcasting skills. I also spent most of my quality points (10 for mystic adept, 10 for "way of the adept", 5 for mentor spirit) so i don´t have the 20BP left that would be needed for the exceptional attribute (agility). I planned to ask the GM for a medium rating 2 surge, only to get metagenetic agility, nothing freakish or something else. IF he declines, do you see how to manage to raise the attribute anyway and save the build?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 17 2011, 12:20 PM

I would suggest using Adrenaline Surge Attribute Boost. Yes you don't have a lot of dice for it on a Mysad (although arguably your powers take your full magic attribute, not just whatever you didn't devote to casting), and yes you have to keep refreshing it, but it works reasonably well for me.

Your GM probably won't let you use Geas-learning, if he's already concerned about overpowered stuff, but that of course always helps.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 17 2011, 12:22 PM

Disclaimer: I'm personally biased against SURGE, Infected and Metavariants. To me, it's like they stand for "the species is the character concept", as well as somewhat cheesy powergaming. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, just my biases in general. No offense meant

How high an Agility do you want? You can get pretty high without resorting to The Strange. Agility 5 is nice, 6-7 is good, and 8-9 is really quite high. Of course, elves are even curvier.

I like Muscle Toner. It's reasonably affordable and at 0.2 Essence per point, more efficient than spending Power Points on it. Restricted Gear and R4 Muscle Toner costs 8.2 BP, add about 10BP for "Magic" - then you've saved 21.8BP over trying to do the same with Magic or mundane Attribute-buying.

Version A: cheapass
Softmax Agility to 5 (40BP), Restricted Gear (5BP), R4 Muscle Toner (3.2BP), compensate a point of Magic (10BP): 58.2BP and 0.8 Essence for Agility 9

Version B: expensive but bigger
Elf (30BP), Genetic Optimization (9BP) Hardmax Agility to 8 (75BP), Restricted Gear (5BP), R4 Muscle Toner (3.2BP), compensate a point of Magic (10BP): 132.2BP and 1.0 Essence for Agility 12, +2 Charisma and Low-Light Vision.

Well, as you can see, there's some diminishing returns when you push past 9.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 12:33 PM

The problem is, that trolls get a -1 reduction in agility. So 7 would already be absolute augmented max. The goal of this build would be to become at least as "flexible" as a human or ork char. This means max. natural agility 6, augmented 9. The char. is intended to be some kind of tank, so i don´t want to switch the metatype. I could go back to standard-troll, but orks, elves etc. are no option. Because ware etc. is no option (genetic optim. also costs essence) there is not much left. I can either go for regular troll and max. surge (but in this case i lack the arcane arrester) or i stick with fomori and find another solution...

Maybe i can convince the GM to let me switch the metagenetic body for metagenetic agility?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 17 2011, 12:46 PM

Ok, sorry, well I totally didn't see that problem..

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 01:18 PM

Wish-list: fomori adept with agility 6 as racial max. but without surge and ware. I only know about genetic optimization, surge and the quality that raise natural maximums...but all are not available. Any alternative solution is welcome.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 17 2011, 01:23 PM

So basically you want all the benefits of a troll (variant) without the downsides?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:36 PM

Looks like it...

Posted by: Blade May 17 2011, 01:41 PM

In a topic called "Preventing of Powergaming", no less.

Posted by: Makki May 17 2011, 01:47 PM

why not just get Attribute Boost [Agility]. with a softmax Agi of 4, you'll end up at 5 to 8 depending on luck.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:51 PM

Well, he will still max out at 7, regardless of Luck. Maximum Augmented is still Maximum Augmented after all.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 17 2011, 01:54 PM

What do you need a 6(9) cap on agility for? If you aren't spellcasting nor using cyberware, what's your plan on raising your agility? Sure it's neat and all to the theoretical max as a human or ork, but what are you going to do with it? Have a friend sustain an increase agility on you? Otherwise you're only down 1 point of agility (softcap 4 versus 5 or hardcap 5 versus 6) which isn't that big.

If you're planning a possession build, then yeah you're losing 2 dice on agility. That isn't so bad. It's less than a hit on average. I would just live with it.

Edit- Removed comment

Posted by: Makki May 17 2011, 01:55 PM

typo *g*. wanted to write 5 to 7, ofc

and 7 is fine. there are no more ways to increase your max attribute than the already mentioned.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 01:57 PM

Yeah... I am often fine with Agility in the 5-7 range. That is downright good in fact.
There is a drug or two that can increase Agility as well, if I remember correctly. Temporary, but useful.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 02:37 PM

Aaah, they got me. Ok, lets specify a little more detailed: "less powergaming". As an mysad with focus in adept powers, agility is important. I can live with reductions in charisma, logic and intuition, but agility? No way. ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 03:03 PM

So.... Don't play a Troll or Troll variant. Play an Elf (or Elf variant) instead.

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 03:21 PM

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
But elf variant do not give you a +4 to Body, you know.

Well, I guess he knows why...

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 04:28 PM

Powergaming for life^^

Posted by: Makki May 17 2011, 04:39 PM

be a gnome. increased body, normal agi, arcane arrester

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 04:43 PM

Yeah, but all powergaming fades at the thought of playing an DWARF....baaaah.^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 04:47 PM

Sure, but you don't suffer with Agility... Which is apparently the concern...

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 04:49 PM

BUT you suffer with Reaction. Not a good trade. AND with running speed...drastically. You suffer with strenght...and body...and mean nasty DWARF JOKES!!!!! The WORST^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 17 2011, 04:57 PM

Well, Dwarfs are short... what do you expect?

Posted by: Makki May 17 2011, 05:28 PM

in my home group there was never one dwarf joke. because i have been the shortest of the group in RL for two decades now, I can play always dwarf as they stopped making short people jokes towards my direction 1.5 decades ago
I think that's actually bad roleplaying by them

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 05:45 PM

Definitely, i think everybody in our group tried at least one time to play a dwarf-character...and no single one lasted more than 2 runs. We have a LOT of dwarf-jokes...^^

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 05:48 PM

And no dump troll or gay elf jokes?

I mean dwarf are small, so...

They don't get a logic mali after all.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 17 2011, 05:51 PM

elf-jokes are fine, but most of them are magically active...so beware.

Troll and ork-jokes seem quite logical, but they are strong. And do YOU want to get over there and tell him how ugly he is?^^

Posted by: Irion May 17 2011, 05:54 PM

Dwarfs are strong too.

No but nothing beats telling a ork.
Well, I will but some flowers on the grave of your grand children.

Posted by: Bodak May 17 2011, 11:50 PM

This thread reminds me of "will you do my homework for me?" on Yahoo answers.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 May 18 2011, 02:28 AM

How about you just tell the GM your situation and offer to pay 10 build points of exceptional attribute before as a sort of down payment. When you pay the rest off in game (20 karma for the 10 build points not payed) then you get the quality but nothing before then. Almost exceptional attribute. Like getting latent awakening. He could even charge you an extra 5 karma to keep everything fair.

Posted by: Falconer May 18 2011, 04:43 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This... very much this... fomori are bad enough and should be banned, let alone surged.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 18 2011, 06:43 AM

Also consider there is a reason your GM nixed the Fomori. Trying to get around that reason may make create an antagonistic relationship between you and you GM. There are no stats that will save you from that.

Posted by: Critias May 18 2011, 07:46 AM

Maybe you should just suck it up and not try to make a character that's good at everything.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 18 2011, 08:12 AM

So your games won't allow the Combat Hacker/Rigger Face Mage, Critias?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 18 2011, 08:31 AM

[This was the right quote.]

Hmm... in the past, with SR3, a dwarf joke too many about the albino dwarven mage would quickly end up with a TPK and the dwarf standing grinning over their smouldering corpses. But then of course that's basically the same thing. [Duh, I quoted the wrong post at first]


I had it worse, my gothic albino dwarven cybermage was infected with hairy-butt disease, and that's when the jokes really started.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 18 2011, 09:16 AM

Dwarves make good casters due to willpower, have high Strength and are at the ideal length to punch you in the crotch.. make jokes at your own peril

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 18 2011, 12:31 PM

Honestly, an Ork has almost as much body, only lacking a single point plus the dermal armor. Why is this a problem to play an ork instead?

Also, why are you taking Mystic Adept if you aren't doing spellcasting? Seems like a waste of 5bp.

Honestly, you sound like you're trying to create some kind of do-everything ultimate badass. You need to pick a direction. Tanks generally aren't super agile. Super agility characters usually aren't there to stand and take damage. Pick one and roll with it.

Posted by: Irion May 18 2011, 12:55 PM

@Jhaiisiin
Because he took a fomori.
This back holds:
Smaller (lesser Problems), one additional point of Body and Arcan arrester.
(There is no orc variant with those benefits. The best Orc variant is the oger or may be the Satyr.)
But nothing there is able to beat that troll.

Lets but it like that:
What the pixie is for the caster, the fomori is for the tank.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm May 18 2011, 04:08 PM

While the importance of attributes in uncontested, I still don't quite understand why the two dice are such a big deal: He wants to be a tank, sure enough. So he obviously won't be a 30 Dice elf gunbunny.
Still, for a mysad, there are ways to get more dice on your attacks. There is also posession/channelling, which breaks the max stats by default, and which you can do as a mysad. (At least there are many indications it's supposed to, while not being explicitly spelled out.)

So while I think it's a definite compromise, it's just one you have to make when you want to play a Fomori without shenanigans.

Posted by: Irion May 18 2011, 05:32 PM

No, it does not if you consult the FAQ. It was open for debate.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 18 2011, 05:40 PM

This. I go all the way up to around 9 Agility & Reaction on virtually every Samurai I create and I still find this a touch brazen.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 18 2011, 06:14 PM

This is nothing in comparison to what i usually play if i have completely free hands. I already refused to surge...big step in my progress to get away from real powergaming^^

Posted by: Ryu May 18 2011, 08:23 PM

"Downscaled" powergaming... play an augmented spellcaster with a bunch of sustaining foci (health) and boosting spells. Fomori are not a good choice here (Arcane Arrester), so go Ogre.

Posted by: Glyph May 19 2011, 02:12 AM

Getting a fomori up to 9 Agility is normally no biggie - either get metagenetic improvement to Agility, or some geneware, and add muscle toner: 4. But doing it with no SURGE and no 'ware is kind of a different beast. Honestly, if you are playing a tank, an Agility of 7 is fine. Get a 4 or 5, then get Agility Boost: 1 (you will almost always boost Agility to 7, and you will almost always soak the Drain). Give up on the 9 Agility - if you find some way to get it, odds are your GM will just nix the character anyways.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 02:27 AM

If you're playing a Tank, you want to prioritize Reaction over Agility, anyway.

Each net hit on the defense is worth about 3 hits(on average) on the soak/damage resistance test. And what do you roll for defense? Reaction.

Having a lower Agility cap can be made up for in other areas. Higher skill, specializations, reflex recorders, tacnets(rating one works with just a smartlink, for example), personalized grips on melee weapons, some geneware like synch(or is it reakt) adds to general combat tests, or just plain old wide burst fire. To name a few.

Posted by: James McMurray May 19 2011, 03:34 AM

An interesting idea if you're trying to avoid min-maxing: make a character using just SR4A, no splats. Or even less min-max capable: pick a pregen. Why bang your head against the GM's fear filters when any character can be fun to play?

Note: I'm not against power gaming, just the idea of trying to power game (and even soliciting help from others) when the GM is uncomfortable with it.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 20 2011, 09:37 AM

This was the intention for this topic. The GM feels uncomfortabel with class 3 surge metavariants that use restricted gear and possession magic...so i tried to reduce the powergaming a little bit but this doesn´t mean that i want to play a sore loser. I thought about a combat-character that is capable of doing the tank-job. So a troll is definitely preferable. If you want to be a real tank, you should also bring along some resistance to magic...so magical capabilities are the thing to go. Because i cannot do metavariant and surge alltogether, i had to choose and took the fomorian. But the problem with a troll is the relatively low agility and for this problem i needed a solution. Acutal status is "exceptional attribute - agility" for 20BP, i dropped "way of the adept" for the moment (buy it later in game) and i would also switch the metagenetical increase in body for the same increase but in charisma. So he is tough enough and can deal some damage in the future. Is that still powergaming?

Posted by: Eimi May 20 2011, 10:05 AM

I've always thought it'd be darkly hilarious for a Fomori Supremacist group to form and pick on other trolls (and possibly, well, on EVERYONE).

They're only the most optimal metavariant in a sea of more-optimal-than-base metavariants. By a longshot. So they do kind of have a whiff of cheese to them, despite being kind of cool and undeniably kickass. And they've been part of the game for years upon years, so it's not like you're exploiting anything a great many SR players have exploited before ye.

But no, taking exceptional agility for a fomori (or any troll, really...) isn't powergamey in the slightest. Though you should, as with any other character, play up just how vital that dedication to being above and beyond in an attribute is to your character's...well, character. Years of training, if won through hard work, or how they've always been gifted in that one area, winning competitions or games with their peers (sports, for instance), etc.

But that's no different than any other "big" quality for any given character, really.

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 20 2011, 10:30 AM

You still have 10bp worth of positive qualities to spend.

Go for Genetic Heritage - Genetic Optimization (Agility)

Since it's inherited, there's arguably no Essence loss.

At the very least, the essence loss would occur before awakening, so you wouldn't have to pay for the lost magic point since essence loss before awakening does not reduce starting magic, only maximum magic. So, you'd be sort of like an Infected where your starting essence is below 6, but you don't have to pay for the lost magic to go with the lost essence. That loophole could potentially free up 10bp you could spend on .8 essence of ware/treatments to make up for the lost PPs.

Really though, just get a tac-net or something. 7 Agility is enough.

Posted by: Machiavelli May 20 2011, 10:54 AM

What does a tacnet do? Have no books around.

Posted by: Mardrax May 20 2011, 12:01 PM

A tacnet is a Program that combines and interprets sensory input from all people hooked up to it, to provide them a bonus to certain actions. See Unwired.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 20 2011, 12:52 PM

There's definitely no arguing that Genetic Heritage doesn't cost Essence, nor that it happens 'before' Awakening in chargen.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 01:02 PM

It is Definitely a Twinky Argument, with lots of Cream Filling indeed...

Posted by: Falconer May 20 2011, 01:06 PM

It's also a completely wrong one.

Line devs have stated in the past... that it doesn't cost MONEY... but it still costs essence. You always end up paying the piper somehow.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 20 2011, 01:09 PM

And I am agreeing with you on that... Even to the point that though you may have lost that Essence at Birth, it still impacts your Magic rating at Character Creation...

Still, I have heard the argument more than once...

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 21 2011, 01:12 AM

If you have less than 6 essence at birth and suffer magic loss from it, how is that story going to work?

"Jim was shaking like a sick dog as the older kids barreled down on him in the alley. He slipped against the wall and turned to cover his face with his hands when a surge of energy struck him... in the form of a boot to the junk. Later in the hospital, little Jim thought that maybe that story should have gone differently..."

Posted by: Glyph May 21 2011, 02:19 AM

The rule is so stringent, because if it wasn't, every PC would have gotten their 'ware before they awakened.

And honestly, trying to exploit a cheesy potential loophole will hardly convince the OP's GM that he is not powergaming, so it's kind of an ironic tangent.

Posted by: Falconer May 21 2011, 04:56 AM

Easy answer... "latent awakening" quality. Which means you don't awaken til well after play starts... if ever (GM whim, ).

And if I saw a character like this w/ the quality... it would never awaken. Fomori and shapechangers have a long history of being abused in shadowrun. Good old highest priority on race selection....

Posted by: Saint Sithney May 21 2011, 08:22 AM

It's not every piece of ware; it's a single inherited trait passed down through altered germ-line cells. Consequentially, it's impossible to argue that it was essence lost after awakening. If the rules for this loss are to be consistent with essence loss from other starting and playing rules and qualities, then that means it doesn't count toward lost magic.

Twinky, for sure. The dude is asking for powergaming HAX, and that's the one with the best fit. No net gain or loss in BP, but there is a loss in PP and a buffer of .8 essence to use and lose on select ware.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 21 2011, 01:04 PM

Nah. The rules have no concept of 'when/where's the Essence loss from?' There's no reason the quality should have a unique loophole, especially given the insane abuse. The quality shouldn't even exist, but it does; might as well treat it right.

In other news, I'll take my free Synaptic 3, plz.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 21 2011, 02:44 PM

Yes, Pleeze... Along with My Genetic, in utero, Reakt treatment...

Posted by: longbowrocks May 22 2011, 11:25 PM

If you're GM is really being a putz, go for the 30 die firearms adept. Maybe you can beat the Powergame hate out of him by destroying his tanks with a holdout.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 12:54 PM

That is just going to increase the Powergame Hate, not alleviate it.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 23 2011, 03:29 PM

While I've seen that advice given straight faced, I think in this case longbowrocks is being sarcastic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 03:30 PM

Possibly... it is often so difficult to tell with Longbowrocks...

Posted by: Glyph May 24 2011, 02:09 AM

Yes, yes he was. He did it correctly - he used the sarcasm smiley. Because if you don't use the sarcasm smiley, the sarcasm is invisible.

Posted by: longbowrocks May 24 2011, 03:13 AM

Damn straight. I was trying to draw the ninjas out of my screen. I know they're there somewhere.

Posted by: Shaikujin May 24 2011, 03:11 PM

If your GM is uncomfortable with throwing Surge into the mix, check with him if he is fine with you simply buying metegenetic properties without Surging. From pg 110 of RC:



If he's fine, you can delay picking up Way of the Adept as you have planned, and use the remaining 20 BP to buy Metegenic Improvement (Agility) instead of Exceptional Attribute.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with powergaming. The main idea of a game is to have fun as a group. If everyone in the group does it, it's not a problem. If it's a mixed group, one of the things your GM may be concerned with is that the increased opposition he needs to throw at you may be too much for the rest of the players and make it less fun for them.