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Posted by: JM Hardy May 19 2011, 02:51 PM

The latest Shadowrun sourcebook, Spy Games, is out now (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=spy+games&x=0&y=0, http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=91720)! It provides an update on the intrigue-filled city of Denver--find out what Ghostwalker's been up to and why the different sectors of the city are pushing for a renegotiation of the Treaty of Denver. The book also tells you what you need to know about conducting intelligence operations, including a briefing on counterintelligence and details on using spirits in intelligence operations, and of course it contains a nice helping of new spy gear and new spells, adept abilities, and metamagics. All this, and dozens of plot hooks and information on other global espionage hotspots, including Brussels, London, Kansai, and Austin!

For more info, let's check out the official summary:

CITY OF SECRETS

Listen to the whispers—they’re all over town. People have secrets, millions of secrets, and some of them are so explosive they could shift the balance of power in the Treaty City of Denver. Normally, the great dragon Ghostwalker’s tight grip would keep the city under control, but some of the whispers moving around town say that Ghostwalker hasn’t been himself lately. The powers of Denver are scrambling, the Treaty is about to be renegotiated, and information is the hottest commodity in town.

Spy Games brings Shadowrun players to the espionage-filled city of Denver, where secrets are bought and sold, and sometimes the price is paid in blood. Accessing these secrets may mean using cutting-edge surveillance gear or powerful magic, or it could mean turning back the clock and breaking out low-tech cloak-and-dagger approaches that the techheads of the world would never expect. Spy Games provides the setting information, gear statistics, and game rules players need to dive into Sixth World spycraft.

Spy Games is for use with Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition.

Jason H.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 19 2011, 04:45 PM

So 23 pages of goodies and how to hide them, interesting.

btw, seems the jackpoint page name drops two unknown (to me) books:
- Street Legends
- Unfriendly Skies

And wtf is Hestaby doing at the UN?!

(do not have the full pdf yet, just looking at the sample from drivethrurpg).

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 06:43 PM

Who did the cover art? And is Deep Shadows some kind of concept book, a series, or what? Books like War? I sure hope not.

Posted by: JM Hardy May 19 2011, 06:59 PM

Cover art is by Eric Williams. Deep shadows is a series of books where each book is built around a theme, and features place information, gear, and other material related to that theme. They'll have one or two locations that will be the most detailed locations, and generally shorter bits of information about them. War! and Spy Games are the first two of these kinds of books; the next is Conspiracy Theories.

Jason H.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 19 2011, 07:00 PM

The cover is by Eric Williams. (EDIT: Ninjad by Hardy...figures.)

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 07:26 PM

Thanks (to both). The cover's real pretty. Can't say about the book because I don't have it (yet, I suppose).

Conspiracy theories is the London-centric book, right?

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 08:00 PM

Are there any crunchy rules for fluff and gear in this book, or is it another useless Amazonia-book with a page or two of stuff slapped on it, like war?

Posted by: Critias May 19 2011, 08:08 PM

Get a post like that not a half dozen comments in, and yet people still wonder why most of the devs, writers, etc, choose to spend most of their time elsewhere on the 'net.

The preview pdf is right there, contents page(s) and all. Feel free to take a look.

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 08:20 PM

To be quite honest, it's not like we published a book as deeply flawed as War (and Attitude also wasn't exactly top of the line, though better). While it's unfair to condemn the book straight away ... well, it'S not like this comes out of the blue. And unless you ban all who don't suck up to you, you will get such voices for some time anyway. It's publishing, you gotta learn to live with that (even if your stuff objectively is good, some 20% are gonna hate it).

Since my download works now, I'm just skimming, but there seems about as much equipment and rules as there was in Attitude. 83 pages Denver, 48 opages of background fluff and other places, 30 pages equipment and rules. Well, it was 17 pages in Attitude and 26 in War (though it really felt like the reverse - Attitude was 17 pages of interesting and useful stuff and War was 26 pages of fail). So it's a bit more than War. Can't say if there're rules scattered through the background fluff sections (Espionage 101), but I hope not. That went very badly in War.

Posted by: Critias May 19 2011, 08:26 PM

It's not a matter of arguing about War's popularity, or talking about banning, or demanding sucking up -- note, please, I mentioned none of those things, you did -- it's just me pointing out a basic truth. Acting like an asshole to every dev and constantly bad-mouthing their work before even looking at it means it's less fun to hang out here for the devs. It's not rocket science. I see people on here fling stones around willy-nilly, then complaining about a lack of dev interaction; well, you aren't likely to get both at the same time.

There's a world of difference between constructive criticism, a productive dialogue between consumer and producer, and the level of vitriol and entitlement that's been leveled around here since War. Don't be surprised that so few of us choose to hang out here, that's all I'm saying.

And, for the record, the closest you'll come to rules/crunch mixed in with the Tradecraft chapter is a series of NPC templates presented there, very clearly delineated from the rest of the chapter, presented in a shaded text-box and clearly marked as OOC game information (but there within easy page-flipping distance from the discussions about their various roles and agencies, for ease of reference/use).

Posted by: sabs May 19 2011, 08:28 PM

Do you notice the correlation between the Level of Vitriol and the Production of War?

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 08:31 PM

Fair enough. But War! and the ... way soem authors trolled here in the aftermath after they were not praised to high heaven for their writing left an impression by itself.


Certainly not.


Yeah, just seen that. It's surely an improvement on the War mishmash. That's been done in Attitude already and I liked it there, too.

Posted by: Critias May 19 2011, 08:33 PM

Hermit, just an aside, but please note a quick edit I made of my last post (handling your question about mixing IC/OOC stuff).

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 08:35 PM

Scanned through it, seems interesting. But I thought the same of War! until I hit that ER Waiting Room.

One thing I did notice, Clean Car Coating is listed and described, but no price, availability or modification slots are listed for it. And I doubt it's the only item that's missing (Again, no fine toothed comb.).

The update for Denver and the Data Haven/Nexus is greatly appreciated, however.

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 08:43 PM

@Critas: Thanks. Edited.

And yes, Clean Car Coating misses price and potential mod slots (though really, mod slots for paint ...?).

Posted by: Critias May 19 2011, 09:04 PM

Which is part of my point, and part of why the constant dredging up of War! gets so frustrating. Lots of us very quickly caught on that War! was kind of the "African Child" (Get Him To the Greek? Anyone? Anyone?) of recent Shadowrun products. The very day War! hit, we started to talk about what needed to change to keep it from happening again. When folks act like those changes absolutely never happened, several releases later, it gets a little irritating.

We're trying to listen. We're trying to make changes. Some of you guys even (grudgingly?) have admitted that recent products have improved over War!, every once in a while. So then when every release is greeted by "LOL herp derp more War? I hate them all and their mothers smell funny!" before folks even crack the e-cover open and take a peek inside, it gets a little old.

I'm the last guy that's gonna claim every book is perfect. Heck, Way of the Adept was all mine, writing-wise, and I've still admitted that parts of it didn't turn out quite like I would have liked. I'm not passing the buck or claiming we're batting a thousand, here. I'm just wishing the feedback could be a little more constructive, in order to encourage discourse instead of defense.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 09:29 PM

Hey, please excuse me if I want SOME insight into a product I'm interested in buying, before putting money down for it.

At the time of my posting there wasn't a lot of details about what's actually -inside- the book. The battleshop preview has, the table of contents and the intro fiction and... thats it. Compare to This Old Drone's preview, which actually had a hint of interesting useful things for people to look at before hand.

And, well, now there is. Post accomplished, I guess.

You see, I'm actaully playing a spy type in an upcoming game. I want this book to be good, to be worth it, to not cause my gm to roll his eyes at Yet Another Splatbook. I want him to go 'holy crap, this is great, lets all use it'. Coming from someone who loved Attitude, I think you're headed in the right direction.

Since you want some constructive criticism, I figure I'd chime in with my 2 cents. I LIKED the older book design schemes: You want magic stuff, buy street magic, you want setting stuff, buy corporate enclaves or seattle 2072. Currently, it feels like they're kind of being crammed together in one book just to charge a bit more. On the flipside, I'm not sure there's a lot of content left to be treaded for a 200 page book to be made just one of the other.

But yeah. WAR! is basically catalyst's black sheep right now. Sorry if its pushing the devs sensitive buttons right now, but damn, take some pride in your work. Way of the Adept did wonders in my faith that some content producers still understand the system, and what needs shoring up and improvement. Attitude made me laugh, and I rather enjoyed the expanded clothing section ( would it have killed you to put the german arsenal 2072 clothing options in this section too?). Just becuase I enjoy debating rules on here all the time, doesn't mean I won't appreciate a good product.

Spy games, well. We'll see.

Posted by: Critias May 19 2011, 09:40 PM

C'mon, man. Go read your post. Is that closer to "Hey, can I get some insight," or "Hey, you guys write shit?" Honestly. And then, note that in the same breath you bemoan a lack of information about what's in the book, and mention that the table of contents is there, clearly visible to all and sundry. I mean, it's the table of contents. If that's not "some insight into the product," I don't know what is.


I'm glad you enjoyed it, I very much enjoyed working on it. Just do us the favor of remembering not every book is War!, okay? Or, at least understand how treating every book like War! (sight unseen) might explain the scarcity of dev commentary of late, is all I'm saying.

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 09:43 PM

Nah, not grudgingly. Me, I want good SR products. I am deeply disappointed by bad products. I am not happy at all about any bad product. But that doesn't mean I pretend to be happy. And yes, there has been improvement in the line. Credit where credit is due.


To clarify: No options, just different mix-and-match clothes from different brands. There's a wealth more in the Berlin book (fluff only, though) and AAS' personal homepage (some crunch to the fluff), though.

Really, the Berlin book ought to be translated. Right now, it's my benchmark for a truly great SR book. I have to go way, way back to books that are flavored by nostalgia to find one I like as much.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 10:03 PM

*Cough*

THIS! IS! DUMPSHOCK!!! *Kicks random person into a bottomless pit*

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Posted by: Udoshi May 19 2011, 10:29 PM

More like DUMBSHOCK! Haha! Cause it is. Most of the time.

*ahem*

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think the shortbus has enough seating for all of us, anyway.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 10:48 PM

Actually, most of us are quite intelligent. Just opinionated and unabashedly willing to say what we think without caring about other people's feelings.

Not quite Internet Trolls, but not exactly safe for public consumption either.

Which, ironically, makes this forum perfect, both In Character and Out Of Character. Go figure.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 19 2011, 11:38 PM

Well, when's that one coming out? Sounds perfect for fleshing out the conspiracy theorist contact of my groups hacker.

Posted by: CanRay May 19 2011, 11:42 PM

Conspiracy Theories is a conspiracy put out by Topps and CGL to take money away from us in exchange for a PDF or a book!!!

Posted by: hermit May 19 2011, 11:43 PM

So. I read the parts that interested me most: everything except for Denver. Okay, no, just the "hotspots", since they cover a number of actually interesting settings.

I gotta say, this is an improvement on War and Attitude. It's back to a Shadows of Europe level. Editing still could use improvement, but the margin of typos and grammar, format and other errors is back to the level of older books, which is alright I guess. Still, another glance-over would have been nice. The less errors, the better the impression.

Now, to the meat of the section.

The E.C. chapter has some bumpyness and sounds like it was written by a German (Lars, were you very tired when writing this? Uusally, your English is better), though I found it makes sense for German-Dutch Ecotope in a way. It's an interesting writeup though and makes me want to know more about Brussles, E.C. London surprised me most in that it did not make me want to type a colourful, insulting rant. It was a logical development of the SoE plot and respectful to canon for the most part. I care a great deal about London as a setting, and while I miss Lord Marchment, they backpedaled from their making this yet another Seattle clone setting apparently. That's the right choice. Maybe, just maybe, conspiracy Theories will not be an utter and total disaster. Now, Kansei and Austin are only marginally interesting but at least add some local hat to the settings. Berlin South here, with Lone Star; Ninja Samurai Corpers duking it out with Katanas there. Those settings will not win the cake but hey, they're okay. They even tell you why you might be interested in them, which is something that Bogota in War didn't manage in 50-odd pages. Improvement. A nitpick: It's the Yamato ideal, not the Yasuhito ideal. Nairobi is nice to see a mention too, since Africa usually is mentioned only in an offhand way, dismissed as the home of hellhole feral places where people eat each other habitually and love ghouls. And finally, Tel Aviv, another city I've long hoped to hear from again. and it's done reasonably well (as in, SoA quality) again.

Tradecraft looks ok too. Loose Alliance level write-ups of agencies and the likes. I'll read that too, but tomorrow. More then. Unless it'S seriously bad, then I'll just stop.

I hope not too soon. I'd hate to see yet another hackjob book like Attitude and it's wasted potential because no direction and editing happened.

Posted by: Method May 20 2011, 01:29 AM

Still picking my way through it, but right off the bat I'll say:

Thank you guys for fixing the pdf issues.

Grabbed Spy Games and Way of the Adept and they both open beautifully in Apple Preview.

Posted by: Critias May 20 2011, 01:37 AM

Glad you enjoyed those bits, or at least tolerated them.


Nitpick query: Where are you seeing Yamato? It's called the Yasuhito Ideal (all capitalized and everything) in 6WA. Yamato was the pro-segregation one, that encouraged Japanese xenophobia. The Yasuhito was the one that opened up the borders and trade more, softened (in theory) social norms towards metahumans, etc, etc.

Posted by: JM Hardy May 20 2011, 03:56 AM

I apologize for the lack of info on clean car coating. Stats should be as follows:


Mod Slot Threshold Tools Cost Availability
CCC 0 8 shop Body x 50¥ 4

Jason H.

Posted by: CanRay May 20 2011, 04:37 AM

So, when can we expect the errata for this to come out, Jason?

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 04:59 AM

Then it was too late and I messed up. Withdrawn.


Tolerated is a bit harshly put. Overall, it was like reading SoA or SoE. some parts were more interesting than others, but all were useful in case you ever wanted to take your campaign(s) there (unlikely in case of Austin and Kansei with me, but you never know), and none included a wtf moment.

Posted by: CanRay May 20 2011, 05:05 AM

And we found out that the JackPoint can be hacked more than once.

And that FastJack's patience about "The Poster With No Name" is starting to wear thinner than his grey mohawk!

Posted by: hobgoblin May 20 2011, 07:31 AM

Heh, we got another leonardo on our hands?!

Btw, i seem to have missed out on the first hack. What book was it in?

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 08:38 AM

On with my possibly even complete this time review.

So. Thorn is the Brit/Tír Michael Westin of Shadowrun? He sure sounds the part in Tradecraft. Thorne's Top Tricks remind me of the voiceovers in Burn Notice - tone, topics covered, their relative randomness (but at least vague coherence with the surrounding narrative). Not that that's a bad thing for me, I like that show, I even like Westin's somewhat smug tips and tricks (actually, I compiled some 20 out of a long list I found on a web site for newbie players as a quick 101 on what I think a runner should know). Spy Games' Tradecraft could work the same way, which is, I guess, what the chapter aims at. Also, some parts remind me of Spy Games (the movie), like the almost literal part about lies (keep it simple, bla bla). Hey, at least someone did some research here.

Possible Nitpick: CIA and Langley are a CAS affair in SR, right (being in Virginia)? So why compare them to Yale (which is UCAS in SR) and speak of "this country" as though there was an actual USA in SR?

Then, agencies. Here's where we'll see whether canon is getting the War treatment or is handled as respectful as it ought to. First is the UGB. standard russian agency stuff, but reasonably well done. MI5/MI6 next. Can't really remember those form London, but IIRC they were in SoE. Argus and Aegis Cognito then (given the existence of http://jellyfishintel.com/, I'll never say anything about theior dorky names again), Information Secretariat, the CIA and DIA and all the other UCAs and CAS agencies (well, some of them, going by the current USA and it's 25-odd agencies). Short, fast facts in Thorn's anecdotal Westin way of telling things. Reads nice enough. I'd almost say this book is not overall going to stink, but then again I said that about Attitude too. And it did in the end. So, reserving my judgement for now.

A treatise on the tech curve, Technos and the value of not relying on a Matrix that is fundamentally impossible to secure (and emotitoys; not sure if I am angry about their mention or amused at their dismissal) later, we get to the NPC section. Okay, Hardy seems madly in love with teh idea of putting NPCs into his books. The upside: clear differentiation between crunch and fluff, even if they're on the same page (whcih, mostly, they are not). It's not quite ideal but I can't think of any better way to possibly do it, hence I'll save you smugness here and just say it's probably best way to handle this. Unless you want to ban the crunch into the back of the book entirely, that is. The article ended a bit abruptly, with the page space wasted at the end of the 'hotspots's ection, surely a smug good-bye from Thorne would have been possible?

Next stop: counterintelligence, the spy scene seen from the other side of the equasion.

Posted by: Nath May 20 2011, 09:43 AM

CIA remains in Langley and remains an UCAS agency. A chunk of Virginia, north of the Rappahannock River, remained in the UCAS as the state of North Virginia. I'm not sure it appears on all SR maps, but the Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America and the novel Just Compensation clearly state the point. Actually, according to the Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America, the Fairfax county itself became part of the Federal District of Columbia. On the other hand, SOTA:2064 says CIA headquarters are in North Virginia. Anyway, CIA is UCAS.

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 10:16 AM

Thanks for clearing that up.


Well, being sold out to Horizon probably isn't what he expects from his potpourrie of fans and favourites ...

Anyway, on with my review.

So it's time to discuss the opposition: counterintelligence. Writing is solid and sounds different from thorne, because it's a different voice. That's not been standard in previous books and hence, a good sign. Again, the writing's quality seems on par with Loose Alliances, which is good enough (though not great). Info on the working of agencies tries to take into account that SR is not the current real world with elves, but has mechanisms that are real gamechangers in the realm of intelligence. Well, that's also a step up from Attitude (which failed to even acknowledge the prevalence of holo-TV (TriD) and SimSense). I really like the agencies covered, too. The UCAS now has something that is the Jack Bauer CTU in all but name. On a side note, do I understand this right, the UCAS has even more semiindependent or fully independent agencies than the US? Here's something I miss: inter-agency rivalry. It made 9/11 possible, so it can have horrendous consequences. It should get more than a passing mention by Thorne.Anyway. Truth dancers: interesting. KE: well, that's one of these story updates. At least it fits in and does not stand out like a sopre thumb, like that Horizon guy in War's Bogota article who actually isn't even remotely in Bogota and probably does not exist. KE's entry sound useful too for a Seattle campaign. The SSD are a counterintelligence group masquerading as a protection detail - isn't that what the Secret Service does? Anyway, they're a scary corporate-based enemy. GRU, of course. Zone Defense Force (why isn't the ZDF in teh large Denver section though?).- And the Stasi-like Texas rangers, which again made me both laugh and want to cry. Nice writeup though. Not planning a trip to Texas with any of my campaigns anytime soon, but if I did the Rangers woulkd definitly feature. A Mix of Harry Callaghan, deep-accented Texans and grey-faced creepy Stasi who bug everything and have an incredible web of contacts. Neat. Oversight Board - does it have Aurors? SIS is a new face again, and I don't really see the difference between them and ARGUS, but I guess their marketing towards OC and Megas without a dedicated Elite Spy Force gives them their own niche. Also, it's apparently a hook to get anyone to use Kansei. Well, maybe someone will bite. I probably won't.

Of note: The art in tis book is top notch (one thing that has extremly improved with CGL for some time now and steadily - the only thing unbaffected by the Derp that came with the Line Dev transition), and both the shaman and the Ranger in this chapter are priceless as character/NPC illustrations. Bottom line: useful. Not stunning, or dazzlingly written, but solid and usable, tells you why you should care about it, and comes across as coherent with previous chapters, and established Shadowrun canon.

The chapter then wraps up with two counterintelligence scenarios narrated by Hard Exit. It's actuually solid writing, and I like how he describes the first, an Aztlaner doublebluffing locals in Yucatan into killing UN forces, adnd how Hard Exit stopped him (through harsh and illegal in most civilised states means). The second sums up an op in Denver, a classical investigation and a masterful (and almost legal) conviction of a double agent. The kind of stuff you see in shows like Lie To Me and The Closer. As it'S titled "the Legal Divide", I missed some explanation wrapping it up; as is, it'S more like Hard Exit Tells War Stories. Niot bad, but it could've needed an editor's touch and a new writeup, maybe a pargraph explaining the legalness in the elgal divide.

And now, since it's one of the raw spots in the book, comes another chapter that really left me wondering. It has all the makings of a chapter, but where the previous is some 20 pages long, this is a stunning *three*, including a one-page chapter intro fic. What the fuck?. Is this where the missing 36 pages were? Spy Games was originally announced as 206 pages, but clocks in only 170 in it's final form. What has been cut? Did sanity prevail over madness and potted plant plots, a continuation of the "storyline" introduced in War? do I even *want* to know?

Anyway. The one-and-a-half page text detailing "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7AvEysmEQM" actually is a good summary of why and how the metaplanes and spirits affect the way intelligence works in SR. That's a good thing, but does it need it's own 1,5 page chapter? Actually, 1,25 pages, since one quarter of the second page again is empty. This format leaves me wondering, even though the writing as such is not bad or anything. Why not just attach this to the previous chapter? Is this intro fic so damn important to some obscure metaplot build-up? Not to even mention that Milan the tent city (this is Italy, not Vael Dothrak) is the first major break with SR canon in this book. A resounding WTF, though no bad content apart from the intro fic.

Next stop: Spy Stuff. Crunch Time! But not now.

Posted by: TW May 20 2011, 03:59 PM

I'm glad you like it and that the setting's established roots are noticeable. I tried to continue the developments mentioned in 6WA as well as the plots seeded in some olders, like SoE. Out of curiosity, when stating the write up is respectul to canon "for the most part", which parts you noticed that did not?

Posted by: Nath May 20 2011, 04:20 PM

SIS had a mention in Loose Alliances, page 68, as a competitor of Aegis Cognito based in the CAS. But nothing else was known besides this so far.

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 04:22 PM

That was simply badly worded. I don't know London canon that well by heart, not the later developments at least, so I just can't say if not some small thing about the Pendragon was odd. I haven't found any canon issues in that article though (nor anywhere else, except for the weird Vael Dothrak that Milan suddenly has become). One question though, why no mention at all of Regulus? It's born of the large local manufacturing corp, after all, so it should still be felt nationally? And what happened to the Aztech-NDM Alliance of old? Also, will you also do the London part of Conspiracy Theories?

Overall, Spy Games lookes like a book of old, of the height of Synner's era. Some rough edges and weirdness, but nothing like the total offense War was, nor as lackluster thrown together, unguided and beyong canon as Attitude was (which was good in parts and horrifying in others). Not through yet though.

Posted by: Fatum May 20 2011, 05:41 PM

Okay, my grumbling goes under a spoiler tag...
They made the Main Intelligence Directorate a counter-intelligence agency now? Any opinions from the UGB on that? :\

I'm not too keen on Europe fluff, but isn't Milan kinda a part of GeMiTo urban superagglomeration?

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 05:57 PM

The GRU is more or less for the internal stuff, from what I gather, the GRU is the big scary KGB successor who will have Russian mobstes kill you in your sleep if you fuck with them.
Taken from the text: " The Glavnoye Razvedyvatel’noye Upravleniye (GRU) is the Red Army’s military intelligence directorate, an oft overlooked, but fearsome, presence in the spy game." Also, the GRU runs Speznaz, is in league with the russian mafia, Aztech (because Aztech built thjeir own security service with former GRU people), is very fond of assassinating people, hates technomancers, wants to explode the Resonance realms and has some Winternight sleepers still lurking among them. they are, essentially, acting interior intelligence agency, also out to intimidate army and other officials that they better be in oine with the Kremlin.

Compare: "Upravleniye Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti [are] the inheritors of a couple hundred years of cold Russian brutality, hearkening back to the Cheka, the NKVD, the KGB, and all those other alphabet agencies that perpetually played bad guys in European and American tridsims about suave spies and sinister Russian assassins." My KGB comment was off, hence. Apologies.


Yes, which is why it should be houses, not tents. Because Italians are not some sort of Touareg who just long to live in yurts again if their government'd only let them.

Posted by: lokii May 20 2011, 06:04 PM

North Virginia is not on any of the North America maps since Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America. And in that book the map is pretty rough and shows a much bigger portion of Virginia as part of the UCAS. Here is the interpretation I came up with based on the verbal description: http://shadowhelix.de/images/4/4a/Illustration_Aufteilung_von_Virginia.png

Posted by: TW May 20 2011, 07:01 PM

Wordcount, really. There's a lot of other stuff besides Regulus that I wanted to include in the London write up but then focused on what I considered "the important bits" instead. In hindsight I see the London write up as being not so much about the city than about the state of the nation itself.
No, I won't.

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 07:10 PM

I didn't mind that. It was a direly needed update.


shame really. Just when things started to look up again. Well, hopefully whoever picks this up will continue in the vein you did and not in the vein CGL did with their last two books.

Posted by: Fatum May 20 2011, 07:31 PM

Oh. Well, yeah, "military intelligence directorate", about right. Pretty much taken from SoE otherwise, with all the errors trailing.

Posted by: hermit May 20 2011, 07:34 PM

Canon. Warts and all. Just look at the Germany setting. Though they fixed Berlin good, gotta hand them that. Looking forward to the Urban Brawl book.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 20 2011, 11:31 PM

Anyone been able to fully translate what the nameless poster said on page 166? Running it through Google translate so far I can get . . . "Dose: Two fifty. Thirty six. One*. Forty-Five*. Forty-seven**. Ninety-two**. Nine hundered and five***. Fifty-eight***. Quarantase. Konets."

Wasn't able to translate the last two unless the writer meant to say sex in Swedish. Presumably they're numbers like the rest though.



*Spanish

**Italian

***Norwegian

Posted by: Fatum May 21 2011, 12:18 AM

Konets seems to be transliterated "конец", "end" in Russian.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 21 2011, 12:44 AM

Which makes sense for the end of what appears to be a sting on a numbers station. I wonder if quarantase was meant to be quarantasei, which is forty-six in Italian.

Posted by: CanRay May 21 2011, 01:01 AM

Now I really wish I had been able to learn French.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 21 2011, 05:25 AM

There is nothing there in french.

Posted by: Udoshi May 21 2011, 07:44 AM

Did you feel you got your money's worth out of the content inside?

Posted by: hermit May 21 2011, 08:09 AM

translates to:

Italian, Spanish, Italian, Italian, Norwegian, Norwegian, Italian, Russian.


So far, yes. Euro's still strong, which helps. Isn't bad, though. useful info and probably useful gear. But, havuing read, like, a quarter yet, I'm not making final judgements here.

Posted by: CanRay May 21 2011, 08:44 AM

Nothing in the Shadowrun books in French... Yet. We just got a multilingual dump, and French is a major language used around the world. (Asia, North America, Africa, Europe...)


Still haven't gone through it with a fine toothed comb, but I'm happy with my purchase of a PDF copy, especially as I got it on sale.

Posted by: Giabralter May 21 2011, 08:41 PM

Here's the inspiration for it under video and it's the video titled blast mitigation.

http://www.rhinoliningsindustrial.com/applications/military/battle_jacket/76/95

Posted by: hobgoblin May 22 2011, 11:16 AM

Reminds me that one can fix a leaky fuel tank using a bar of soap, thanks to how it interacts with petrol.

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 12:41 PM

Okay, glanced over my buddy's head to see what the book has on the GRU, and what the crunch is good for.

And the first quote is instant WTF:

Does the Army has any other intelligence agencies in addition to the GRU for GRU operatives to order a murder of "Red Army spies"?

The part on the GRU itself is boring, though. No fact-checking done since SoE, the GRU still handles political officers (which has always been the KGB's duty, actually, political officer being in the KGB and not Army's chain of command is what gave him his power, and what made him that hated), but now it uses them to back up its political ambitions (with their political clique called Siloviki, which is a Russian word for any and all state-run organizations bearing arms, but it's a buzzword since Putin's rise to power, so no way for it not to be used, even without knowing its meaning!). But a couple small paragraphs on actual intelligence work. And but of course, Spetznaz used as a name for specific spec-ops group run by the GRU.


On to crunch (which is mixed IC and OOC, despite what's said above; describing an item IC and then giving an OOC stat line is not separating the two).
The disguise rules for equipment are a nice idea, but the even example provided includes the necessity to tell a pen's Device rating. And, but of course, it's never cross-checked with Arsenal - things like SA Puzzler should hardly work with the rules suggested. Same for drone case rules - minidrones, which are said to be the size of a large insect to the size of a mouse in Arsenal, are suggested to be hidden in pen- or key-shaped cases; small drones, which are commlink or toaster to large dog in size, are said to be possible to hide in a commlink- or shoe-shaped case (or a hidden pocket).

Commlink accessories are cool, as well. Although the section leaves you wondering - why is there nothing as handy as Nanite Slicers in Augmentation, and where can I get a whole vat of these Nanite Disassemblers 2.0? Does the Gyroscopic Winch mod come "w/ 50m of high-tensile microwire", as listed in the stats, or without any, as said in the description? Is the "Small Explosive Device" the same as "Self-destruct, Area" mod from Unwired, and if yes, why list it twice, if no, what's the difference?

Same goes for Intelligence Gear. Assembler assembles documents "regardless of the style of shredder used"? Good ultra-secure shredders turn paper into a pulp. There are shredders with a tiny fireplace inside. How does the assembler work, is it magitech, after all? Does it have magnets inside, perchance? Does Card Skimmer record first ten swipes or first ten cards? Is CarnivoreGold your universal lingvosoft to make all lingvosofts obscolete, after all? How is MonaLisa different from Facial Recognition from Arsenal, and why are the rules different? What determines the UM material rating when it's shaped neither as a hood nor as a body bag?

Surveillance equipment is the best rules section, as for me. Mage Sight Eye Drops pretty much solves the problem with astral security for infiltrators I've been so sore about in a recent thread. Good job!
The drone section is weird, though. Olfactory sensors with a range of four kilometers? And how is Bloodhound Olfactory Sensor different from the usual Olfactory Sensors?

At last, the new magic stuff. What the hell does "anywhere the caster can telepathically communicate" mean for Synesthesia? Can he "telepathically communicate" through wards, for example? How does Spell Masking metamagic interact with Extended Masking, which allows you to mask sustained spells, as well, afaik? Why does Master of 1000 Faces limit your weight at 50 kg minimum, is it only available for human males?

The crunch all in all leaves positive impression - a lot of good ideas there, - but it could've used a competent editor.

Posted by: Method May 22 2011, 09:26 PM

This isn't exactly accurate. Yes there is OoC text imbedded in the IC text, but the OoC/crunch stuff is in big black boxes. While I'm sure not everyone will like this format, you can clearly tell which is which.


The device rating limitation only applies to adding Secondary Functionality. And why is this a problem? Its not saying that you need to give every pen a device rating every time a character goes to write something. Just that if you want to build a laser torch into a given pen, you need to consider that pen's device rating (which should be 1 or 2 at most). Seems pretty reasonable to me, and limits the amount of functions you can build into a device without adding a new mechanic (device ratings being well established in cannon, which states that just about everything has one).

And there is mention of Arsenal's disguise rules in the very first paragraph of the section, with page reference even.

The Puzzler is manufactured from start to finish to break down into disguised components. It hardly applies to a discussion of rules for modifying existing gear to be broken down or disguised. Its rules don't even work the same way- requiring a Logic + Armor test implies that the observer needs to be somewhat skilled to even realize what they are looking at. Thats not the same as realizing that a lighter has a microphone built into it, or that a bunch of undisguised pieces can be assembled into a gun.

Drone Cases: If you ask me a pen is about the size of a large insect and disguising a drone the size of a commlink as a commlink seems pretty reasonable. It seems a bit nit-picky to argue that items that are only described in vague size ranges can't be disguised as other items that are only described in vague size ranges. Obviously there has to be some level of common sense and GM logic applied here.


Nanites:Seems like the rules as written can easily be adapted to any other nanite.

Wench: This is a little confusing. As I read it, the wire is included in the price of the mod, but cannot be housed inside the modified commlink. You have to conceal it elsewhere on your person and thread it into the commlink when you intend to use it.

Explosive: This is a good question. As far as I can tell there isn't a lot of difference except that the Spy Games mod packs a much smaller punch. And of course the assumption is that the user plans to use the commlink as a grenade at some point in the mission, whereas the mod in Unwired assumes that the commlink will only be detonated if the shit hits the fan. donno.


Assembler: I think its implicit that you actually have to have shreds to reassemble. Not sure what magnets would contribute?

Card Skimmer: Rules say first ten swipes.

CarnivoreGold: Linguasofts allow the user to speak an unknown language in realtime. CarnivoreGold is only used to translate after the fact. Trying to use it in place of a linguasoft would be like 3 people sitting and having a conversation where 2 are speaking fluently and one is using Babblefish to try to follow along.

Monalisa: Another good question. I think both CarnivoreGold and Monalisa were initially conceptualized as specialized Browse programs used for Data Search tests specific to their types. That didn't seem to translate well to the final product, tho.

UM: The rating is whatever you want to pay for. The hood and body bag are apparently pre-manufactured products, which have a rating of one. You could purchase rating 6 material and make a rating 6 hood, if you wanted to.

A bear can smell a carcass up to 20 miles away if its upwind. Although there are no ranges listed, I think the Olfactory Sensor/Olfactory Booster are meant to be short ranged and used in the immediate vicinity of the user. The Bloodhound System is long ranged, directional and intended for use with the BioTags listed on the previous page. Interesting to note the Std. Upgrades for the drone lists "Olfactory Booster" which is the cyberware system, and clearly a mistake.


Synesthesia: It means not on the metaplanes, as stated in the text. I would say the basic rules for Ward apply (i.e.- the threshold is increased by 1 for every 3 force the ward possesses).

Spell Masking: Another good question. Lots of overlap there. The advantage seems to be that Spell Masking only works for spells and does not require Masking as a prerequisite. Its also weaker than Extended Masking, since you don't add your Intuition. Overall, not a great ability.

Master of 1000 Faces: 50 kg would be a very skinny human male. But otherwise you are right, the limits don't seem to account for a female, dwarf or other adept with smaller body type using this power.

Posted by: Sengir May 22 2011, 11:01 PM

OK guys, how about a little game to pass some time?

Here's how it goes: You open one of the equipment sidebars (well, full-page sidebars), pick an item and then time yourself while trying to figure out what the hell it actually does. (using a search function is cheating of course)
Red Hands? OK, it has similar effects to a light allergy...but what does it actually do?
T-Ray? What the hell is a T-Ray? It has a price and an availability, but that list mentioning it does not even have a heading which would give an indication of what it does. OK, the list below that mentions "visibility modifiers", so it probably has something to do with vision...


If I'm looking for equipment, I want to find the rules FAST. I don't want to read a few pages of text until finding the sentence this stuff is described. If you want to continue this weird mish-mash of fluff and crunch, then PLEASE at least highlight the names of new equipment in the fluff text, so one can figure out what it does.
Also, the tables. The core books used to have really nicely laid out tables, clear to read and without annoying vertical bars. Now all we get is a bunch of numbers, in front of a monochrome background. Randomly intermixed with rules text. Half of it, as mentioned above the other half is hidden somewhere in the fluff. And the "collected tables" are nothing but an exact C&P of the sidebars.


@Method:

A sensor's range is determined by its rating, it equals the broadcast range of a device with that Signal rating

There really is some stuff which is but a repetition of older gear. For example the fingerprint implant thingie, unless I missed something it does exactly the Dynamic Handprints from Augmentation.

Posted by: Method May 22 2011, 11:27 PM

Oh yeah... damn those screwy Sensor rules. But in that case the rating 5 Bloodhound system that comes standard on the drone is compliant with the established rules.

Edit: And btw I agree that this format leaves something to be desired. As I said above, I'm sure that many will not like it, for exactly the reasons you have stated. Granted its not the first example of something where you need to read the fluff to figure out what the hell it does, but in the case of this book you have dig through fluff for most items.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 12:00 AM

The problem is that the OOC boxes do not provide actual info on the things statted - just as Sengir is pointing out.

Why exactly should we be bothered with determining what is a pen's, or a comb's, or a simple radio system's from 1956 Device Rating is? How is it in any way related to its size, which should logically determine what can fit and what can't?

Oh, nice to know they were aware of its existence!

And that's precisely the problem - different rules for the same situation. You can replicate Puzzler (or, so to say, build Puzzler-like equipment) - but the result will not work more often than it will. You can build a gun to replicate Puzzler with Arsenal mod rules, and it will work just fine.

The drone case is a "combination of drone rack and hidden compartment". You're not masking a commlink-sized drone to look like a commlink, you're putting it into a commlink-sized container.
The drone racks are pretty strictly described. As are drone sizes. But now it's written explicitly in the rules that you can put a small drone (like, say, a Transys Steed) into your shoe - and if the rules do not work as written and require GM fiat more often than not, those are bad rules. After all, if there's no way around that, adding "but use GM discretion" hasn't killed anyone.

Sure, it's just that their performance seemed kinda astounding compared to what Augmentation has to offer.

And why precisely should we be guessing that and houseruling instead of getting rules that work right away? Wasn't there an editor among the staff?

Well, the self-destruct can be remotely initiated, so frankly, I fail to see the major difference in function.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 12:01 AM

Magnets work because of magic, bro. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs Cause a miracle is the only way for it to assemble the documents put through any shredder.

Sure, right after they say "it records the first ten cards".

Well, sure it's not a perfect way. But a hacker in VR can have 5 IPs, so for two people talking at 1 IP per turn providing a translation with a barely noticeable lag does not seem to contradict the rules - at least, as long as nothing's said about the time required to translate each message there. You can use delaying your initiative to make the translations more or less effectively instant.

Right, I just didn't see anything making it any different from that piece of sensor software.

My bad. Didn't spot that bit about Rating in the price tag - saw it's not there for availability (why is it F, btw?), and jumped to conclusion. As I said, my bad.

The descriptions actually differ only in that the Bloodhound thing can be used for tracking, far as I remember. But who said a simple Olfactory Booster/Sensor can't?

"Not on the metaplanes" means "not on the metaplanes". "Anywhere the caster can telepathically communicate" might mean anything - for example, a reference to a specific bit of rules I don't remember (not too keen on magic stuff), or whatever else. Why should we be guessing and houseruling that instead of getting rules that work?

Certainly seems so, but it could at least have been pointed out.

Posted by: Method May 23 2011, 02:01 AM

Well I guess we have different definitions of "rules that work".

Because then we either need a book of tables that describe the sizes of everything a runner could possibly own or use, a new rule mechanic for determining size, or we leave it up to the GM (which by your definition = bad rule).

Puzzler: Maybe you hadn't noticed but there are dozens of firearms and vehicles that don't adhere to their respective modification rules. Your argument is that the Failure Pool would mean that the Puzzler would never work? I would argue that a weapon designed and manufactured for the explicit purpose of being disassembled into disguised parts shouldn't have a Failure Pool because *thats what it was designed and manufactured to do*. The point of the Failure Pool is that modifying ordinary items to conceal things with non-standard (and sometimes vastly different) functions should make them less reliable.

Drone Cases: so is the problem that a small drone should fit in a shoe, or that the Steed is classified as "small". If you ask me the retardedness stems from the latter, which is an existing problem in the rules.

Well in that case intelligence services like the CIA and FBI have been working magic for years. In fact for http://www.unshredder.com/buy-a-licence-package/w1/i1001787/ you can work the magic too. So are you saying that with SR computing power its impossible to apply technology that exists today?

The "anywhere the caster can telepathically communicate" line is there to present the idea that "remote observation of metaplanes is still impossible". You are reading way more into it.

Which is ironic really. The whole thrust of your posts seems to be that CGL is expected to provide rules that require no interpretation. This isn't a new argument at all. People around here have gone rounds about how SR4 is too dependent on "GM-fiat" (a term I detest, btw). But if you ask me its stuff like this that makes a GM (or some other means of rule interpretation) necessary. No rule system will ever be complete enough to cover everything. At any rate its not a "problem" specific to this book by any means.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 23 2011, 02:27 AM

Any update on the fractured free spirits of the city of Denver?

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 02:29 AM

Just saying: "Okay, you're the GM, use your judgment" works as well as providing explicit rules for minor things like that. It's trying to write up a rule and dropping it half-way, so that it requires GM judgment more often than not, is what makes a bad rule.

So, are you saying that the intelligence agencies of the world use jury-rigged items, or what? Just on a side note: those same intelligence agencies have whole factories and research tanks working for them exquisitely.

The problem is that any small drone should fit in a shoe by RAW. I used the Steed as the most outrageous example, but Arsenal is full of small-sized drones which are extremely hard to imagine cramped in a shoe. Actually, that's why the drone size description says "up to the size of a large dog" - and that ruling, unlike the new one, makes sense.

I reiterate my point: even now there are shredders that burn the high-secret documentation or turn it into a paper pulp. Those are still shredders. Yes, I doubt that even with SR tech it's possible to restore info from these.

Except, as you might notice, in this thread alone we've seen a different interpretation. Just because whether a caster can telepathically communicate with every point on physical is a question without an obvious answer (at least for me, YMMV). And allowing for different interpretations makes a bad rule.

I'm just pointing out the parts of the rules that made me raise eyebrows. Some of those are just weird wordings and my nitpicking. Some are glaring editor mistakes, which can lead to hours of rules lawyering or make existing working rules subsystems obsolete. Knowing all can help the reader make an informed decision whether they want the book or not, don't you think? :ь

As for my criteria of good rules, those are pretty simple. Good rules
1) describe the situations the gaming system aims to simulate fully (a) and believably (b), in a consistent © and non-controversial (d) manner
2) allow for only a single interpretation
3) are not overly complex both in wording (a) and execution (b).
Frankly, it's a simple set of things I expect from a rule system, and I believe it's easy to see where my hopes do not come true for the book in question.


Sorry, didn't read the fluff, too scared lately.

Posted by: Method May 23 2011, 03:04 AM

Absolutely. If there are other examples, please share!

Which produce things like the Puzzler. Runners don't often have such resources.

I agree. As I stated, if there are no shreddings left, such a system would clearly not work.

This is drifting off topic, but to clarify, I think that groups (GMs *and* players) should discuss vague rules and come to a consensus on how they will apply them. But I also think that in-game the GM needs the authority to say "this is how we'll do it now and we will talk about it more later". This is not to say that a given player at the table might have a better grasp of the rules. The GM is more-often-than-not the best person to make the call because the player is often unaware of all the factors at play. This is why I hate the term "GM-fiat"- because if you sit at a GM's table there is a tacit agreement that you will accept his ruling. "Rules-lawyering" has no place at the table.

Just out of curiosity, is there any system that meets your criteria?

Posted by: Megu May 23 2011, 06:01 AM

You carry food on it?

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 08:49 AM

Yeah, using these ranges for sensors is a bit weird...but certainly easier than giving each sensor individual ranges


Having to read the descriptions would indeed be nothing new, that's what most gear and cyber requires. The difference is that in Augmentation or Arsenal I can pick item X from a table, then look for the paragraph with the bold heading "item X" (in order between "item W" and "item Y"), and find what I was looking for. Whereas in the new books, the descriptions are hidden somewhere in two pages of continuous text, without any special markup to designate "description for item X starts here".
In an electronic product that's annoying, but ctrl+F helps. In a print product, it's unacceptable - would anyone buy an encyclopedia without keywords?

Granted, the old books also require some page flipping, because the tables for half of the gear are not on the same spread as the description. But only SOME because there are clear and lexicographically ordered headings.


PS: And I agree with your interpretation of the winch - to be honest, it seems rather clear to me.

Posted by: Grinder May 23 2011, 08:57 AM

The art on pg. 22 sucks big time; looks very very amateur-ish, especially compared to those on pg. 90, pg. pg. 104, and pg. 136.
And I get to love the artis who created the illustration on pg. 121.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 09:50 AM

As soon as I get my book.

And the rules for that would be...

GM Fiat is when you sit at a GM's table and then a Fiat comes from behind and runs you over.
Now, it all seriousness, I have absolutely nothing against specific interpretations of the rules, and houseruling, as well, and I do both excessively. I just say that the books should not be forcing you that way.

Paranoia, for example.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 23 2011, 11:43 PM

I have several questions about the adept power Demara. First off, why the trideo requirement? Why can't an adept watch someone perform the action in person? Why do have to watch a bunch of youtube videos to use your magical powers? I agree that trideo should count for this power, but it seems odd to be required.

Secondly by restricted skills, does it refer to stuff like conjuring, sorcery, and compiling which can only be used by certain characters? I assume the answer is yes since that's the reading that makes the most sense by fluff and context. However those skills are never refereed to as restricted skills and I want to make sure it's not actually about default:no skills or something weirder. On a related note, does that mean restricted skills the character cannot have or all skills that are restricted? If I'm a mystic adept with Demara, can I "learn" Conjuring this way? If I have Incompetent: Pistols, can I use it for the pistols skill?

While this is all under "Ask your GM", I'll like to know more about the writer's intentions as well as others opinions.

Posted by: Method May 24 2011, 12:11 AM

Can't comment on the authors intent, but I'd imagine that the trideo requirement is because the adept has to see the skill used repeatedly in order to absorb it. I would say if you are watching someone use a skill that entails repetitive motions (shadow basket weaving perhaps?) that would meet the requirement.

But watching somebody shoot a pistol once and then thinking about it for an hour doesn't cut it.

Posted by: hermit May 24 2011, 08:57 AM

So what about spending a day at the shooting range? Where lots of people fire firearms?

Edit: To pick up my Review briefly, an observation: I can read this pdf on my netbook. This was flat out impossible with Attitude, which would just freeze my reader there. So, this PDF works a lot better as a file than previous releases (War was bumpy on my netbook, too). It seems the pdf person is finally getting the hang of producing usable PDFs. Gratz.

Posted by: Nebular May 24 2011, 04:28 PM

I like what I've seen in the book so far, especially since my game is taking place in Denver. I can't say I'm a fan of the format in which items are listed now on those black pages. I keep thinking they're just fluff text so I skip over them, instead trying to find the tables that the older books used to show item costs and the like.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 24 2011, 04:50 PM

What pdf program do you use? If it's Adobe Reader, I advise http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/reader/. I've found it be the better program (tabbed pdfs!) and far less buggy. I never noticed any problems with Attitude or War. I've had issues with War on my smartphone, but that's not exactly surprising.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 24 2011, 05:36 PM

I would say that is largely a issue of habit, as the change in "interface" have been a bit sudden.

Posted by: Mäx May 24 2011, 05:43 PM

Heh i on the other hand love this new format and hope they use it in all the upcoming books.
But hopefully in a way closer to Attitude then Spy Games, as it's much easier to find the relevant fluff texts of the items in any given sidebox in Attitude.

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 06:08 PM

...an estimated 30% of the time. This time they made it consistent, by removing these remaining 30%.

Posted by: Mäx May 24 2011, 06:40 PM

I can find pretty much every single(a whole lot more then 30%) items fluff description in a very short time in Attitude, but really cant do the same with Spy Games.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 25 2011, 04:08 AM

I have to agree that finding the crunch is kinda frustrating in Spy Games. It's scattered throughout the fluff and even when contained in the black sidebars none of the gear gets much text. A line or two and a stat block.

I'd much prefer all the crunch in a separate section for ease of reference.

I will say though - the snot drone is simultaneously disturbing and fascinating.




-k

Posted by: Slithery D May 25 2011, 06:04 AM

I interpret Spell Masking as applying to all spells you cast, including those cast on others; Extended Masking only effects spells you cast on yourself. So with Spell Masking you can put a Mask spell on a teammate that might not be spotted by astral viewers. Still not great and I'd probably tweak it, but there's at least a rationale.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 10:33 AM

After the centipede, yet another Deus drone that was cut from Brainscan makes it's way into Canon.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 01:50 PM

I found the clothing chapter to be extremely lacking in this regard...and of course the author who thought (f) denoted fire damage, which tells quite a bit about how often that person has played


PS: Is there anything publicly available about cut content from Brainscan?

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 02:19 PM

Demonseed Elite used to have them up on a page.

Posted by: Critias May 26 2011, 12:58 AM

Managed to miss a few updates of this thread, and just wanted to thank Hermit for taking the time to tackle this chapter and share his thoughts on it. I had a blast writing it, and I'm glad folks seem to be enjoying it. No one's commented on any of the little easter eggs hiding here and there, but it's only been out about a week.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 09:09 AM

Okay, on with the review. Equipment, was it. Overall impression: As in Attitude, with some rulesslightly more wonky. Which is not bad because equipment was the best chapter in Attitude. Lotsof stuff here I'll like to use, some old things raise their heads again (Loved that blob drone when I ran Brainscan and found it really missing from the book; damnit though I cannot find the page to link it to you anymore ).

So. We start off with general stuff on camouflage we know (and I loved) from the SOTA books, ported into SR4. This is quite nice. The rules work a bit odd, as mentioned by others, and could have used someone familiar with the core rules books to look them over and straighten them out. But they still seem to work more or less, just using unnecessary deviant rules from similar items elsewhere. I like that sidebar with the fake SIN's contents. CCC got stats in this thread; at least that. Commlink Accessories seem a bit futile to me, but if you want to do everything with your commlink now, including decapitating people and blow hit up, you'll love it (I prefer internal links for the business work and secondary external links for private things and PAN, maintianing a business and a private PAN on my charactetrs). Commlink mods are not forme, hence, but YMMV. Some of the other stuff seems really redundant, but hey, Ican still use them for brand names of high-class image recognition software. Gadgets are fun for the most part. New Spells are interesting and, o far, I haven't found a terrifyingly broken thing like Slow. Inculate is, as mentioned before, the final piece for my Space Marine project. Other than that, some metamagics seem redndant, as others have said.

One thing I miss is the ELINT stuff from SOTA. what happened to sattelite coverage, drones, and stuff like this? Granted, Spy Games goes farmore Bond than Bauer, but it should've been accounted for. Not that the Gadgets aren't nice, which they are. Overall, this chapter leaves a positive impression, as well as the impression that it could have been a lot better if there had been tighter editing by someone who knows the rules.

Then, it continues with something completly unrelated: Conspiracy theories and bizarreness. In ... a chapter on equipment. In continuing text, with nothing at all indicating a complete change of topic. Like, what? Was there no fitting short story and art so you could make it's own chapter of these 1,5 pages? Which actually are 1,75 pages, making this longer than extraplanar intelligence. The mind boggles.

Contents are: The Palantir - Quantum Communications. Well, I guess they're useful for that extreme fringe of Deep Space Shadowrun, so you don't have 10minute delays in communication (actually, we're more talking about hours with blackouts due to albedo, but meh). Number stations are the Machine God Talking To US ...? Bizarre. But that is the intent of that section, I guess. Lonsestar can search commlinks? Boo-fucking-hoo, really. Like they couldn't get away with this before. Nerfing the Resonance Realms has long been overdue to make data runs without a technomunchkin viable again, so good stuff. And finally, Skulls&Bones, who are behind everything in the world because the world apparently starts at the Californian West Coast and ends at the Eastern Seaboard. America focus much, here? Anyhows, how does the New Revolution factor in this, then? Alamos 20K and the American agencies? Mr Knight? Daviar? McBain? Colloton? Coleman (Daniel, not Loren)? Look, if you want to build up an America-centric world conspiracy, at least tie up all the weirdness in America. There is plenty of it, after all.

The placement of "The Classified Section" is absolutly bizarre. It could just have been put together with extraplanar intelligence into a section called "The X Files", where it would have been a lot more appropriate. But what's it doing in equipment? The crunch section? It's not really badly written, though falls short of a proper conspiracy theory, but what the hell.

So now. The stuff I was interested in most is done, and I have a fairly positive impression of the book, though it seems a bit rough and could have used some more polishing, it is not a failed potential parade like Atitude, or ... well, let's not even mention War here. Some format decisions are completly out there though.

I'll check on Denver next, but that might take some time.

Posted by: Mäx May 26 2011, 09:54 AM

It makes total sense when you remember that the gear section is written by Plan 9, the resident conspiracy nut.

Posted by: Adarael May 26 2011, 06:05 PM

That's because I haven't bought it yet. I will, and I will do my best to dig up your easter eggs, sir. That's half the reason I buy new SR books, honestly.

Also, the slew of conspiracy/fringe madness stuff is going to fit perfectly with my new game.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite May 27 2011, 03:30 AM

Hmm...I think you mean the material cut from Renraku Arcology: Shutdown. Though that didn't have new drones in it, I don't think. There was material written up for shadowland.org by Dave Hyatt (one of the Deus writers) that did have new drones in it. I know I have it somewhere, but I'll have to dig around.

Posted by: hermit May 27 2011, 06:44 AM

Then I misremembered, but maybe you linked to it once? Would be very nice if you found it, though.

EDIT: Thanks for the offer and your time, but Crimson_Dude http://www.shadowland.org/screamsheet/issue1/drones.html. Thanks for the help.

For reference, the Drone I meant is the Plasm. That and the centipede have been released as drones long after this was cut and compiled.

Posted by: Bira May 27 2011, 12:57 PM

On the one hand, that's a cool bit of character showcasing... on the other hand, people shouldn't have to be aware of NPC quirks in order to understand the text. At least, not if you want to attract new readers .

Posted by: Fatum May 27 2011, 01:50 PM

Is the link only dead for me?

Posted by: hermit May 27 2011, 02:21 PM

Well, it works fine for me. Strange.


The NPC's voice narrating the chapters is the authors' choice. Hence, even if this was to showcase Plan9's randomness, it just is downright bizarre because this book ought to also be useful as a gaming ressource, and not mixing everything randomly like a badly kept blog should go without asking there.

Besides, why does the conspiracy nut narrate all kinds of equipment anyway these days? Fashion? what the hell? Why not give Plan9 the entirety of The X Files, which is extraplanar intelligence and The Classified Files? That would be much more in character for Plan9 than having him talk about fashion and runner equipment. Yeah, that makes him not a well-rounded, deep, intellectual character. Newsflash: That's not what shadowtalkers are all about, and it's certainly something that becomes annoying when it drops pure fluff into a crunch section for no reason at all.

Also, does the artist have the cover image for download anywhere?

Posted by: JM Hardy May 27 2011, 06:39 PM

It's in the photos section of the Shadowrun Facebook page--the full picture, without the text on it.

Jason H.

Posted by: hermit May 27 2011, 06:45 PM

Thanks. That's quite an outstanding cover there, best in a long time (since Companion).

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 07:07 PM

Forgot about that cover.

I wouldn't mind her being my companion. *Wink-wink, nudge-nudge*

Posted by: hermit May 27 2011, 07:12 PM

Ye dirty mind.

When will we see a follow-up on Debt of non-Blood, btw?

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 07:34 PM

Next time I write for "Money" Johnson. He's still hunting for the folks that put the chips out on the street. But that's really, really, REALLY off topic here.

So, Spy Games, anyone go through it with a fine-toothed comb yet? I can't at the moment due to other issues cropping up, but...

Posted by: Mäx May 27 2011, 07:59 PM

Well the quirkines of this particular poster is pretty clearly mentioned near the beginning of both gear chapters he 's narrating(or go narrating in the case of Attitude.)

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 08:11 PM

Um, there's a big (If non-updated) list of who the Shadowtalkers are and their personal quirks available on the website.

Posted by: hermit May 27 2011, 08:53 PM

Well yes, but I have to ask *somewhere*, do I?

A bit more on topic: Glossing over Denver, I found a map. Now, I approve of maps, I really do. We need more maps! But next time, please, use one that doesn't look good only in colour, when printing a b/w book.

Posted by: Udoshi May 27 2011, 10:29 PM

Yeah, I just got spy games.

The equipment section is incredibly shitty.

I mean, seriously, was the format used in ALL the previous books just too good for the writers, or what?

I know you're all trying to distance yourselves from The Previous Management and That Book Called War, but, come on, Arsenal had some nice layout. It had good, consistent rules an tables(even if a few things for left off and had to be errata'd). THAT is the standard you should be shooting for.

However.
Whomever put Sensor types in with the drone descriptions: You are awesome. This needed to be done ages ago. Even if was only for a few sensors, its a good trend. Keep it up.

Posted by: Nath May 28 2011, 01:50 PM

War! was 184 pages-long : 109 pages on Bogota, 11 on hotspots, and 57 on rules and equipment. Spy Games is 176 pages-long, with 82 pages on Denver, 16 pages on hotspots, 31 pages on espionage, 28 pages on equipment and 4 pages of adventures "hooks and seeds".

The first difference between War! and Spy Games is the lower number of mistakes and typos I was able to catch on the first reading. Good point. And it has a map of Denver. Another good point. I would dare to ask for several maps, with a zoom on each sector with the places of interests displayed.

Denver is a good setting, IMO. The whole thing works. Lots of NPC provided, lots of plots. It is not just four countries at each others' throats, next to ten AAA megacorporations at each others' throats. There are behind-the-scene dealings, secret agreements, cooperations and treasons going on with multiple objectives. Just what I like. Of course, this also makes it hard to give the big picture clearly. Maybe the authors went too far in some direction, especially with Ares Macrotechnology who now deals at the same time with the UCAS, the CAS, the Sioux and Aztechnology.

The three first hotspots, Austin, Brussels and Kansai, are good pick. I really hated the War! format for those. So the return to a more classical one is another good point. Kansai is slightly less interesting, but allows some general fluff on Japanese industrial espionage. An update on London is welcome after Sixth World Almanac (at the same time, I noticed the Conspiracy Theories summary on the website makes no mention of London). The spy angle may be a bit forced, to justify featuring London here. But I actually think that's the way to go with any themed-sourcebook if you want plots to move on. Actually, if I had to decide, I would have put Caracas in as the spy hotspot it should be, for the purpose of giving an update on the South America situation. The "military advisor" angle is played heavily on Nairobi (while pretty much ignored in the rest of the book). So, it should rather have been in War! (but then, it would have been covered with the War! hotspot format, so maybe it's not a bad thing it only showed up now).
I can't help thinking Tel-Aviv shouldn't be there. If the Israeli intelligence and security services were up to their reputation, no other agencies should be able to operate here, and it would not be a hotspot (at least not for the fun things that SR adventure should be made of). Nowadays, Beirut or Dubai are the hotspots, not Tel-Aviv or Tehran. In the Cold War, that was Vienna or Berlin, not Washington or Moscow.

The content of the Tradecraft, Counterintelligence and Extraplanar chapters is good, but I still don't get why they get divided that way, except because different authors wrote them. MI-5 and MI-6 is in one chapter, the Oversight Board is in another, GRU is only presented as a counterintelligence agency (as if military intelligence was not an issue), and psy ops as a CI activity. The Extraplanar Intelligence chapter is cut from the rest, but only three pages and half long (introduction short story and illustration included). The same problem goes on in the Spy Equipment chapter, which mix fluff and stats and plots. Searching for one particular piece of information is going to be a mess, even more so in the printed version. IMO, it would have been much much better to make one chapter on intelligence and counterintelligence methods, one chapter on agencies (and free spirits allied with them), one chapter on plots, one chapter on gear fluff and then gear stats and NPC stats. As far as I can tell it never was a problem to have different part of a same chapter written by different authors, with a change of voice.

The Spy Equipment chapter is... annoying. Save a few mistakes, the gear covers some needs of a spy-themed campaign. But Dr. Laura Cross memos just don't sound right to me. I barely saw the difference between the conspiracy theorist Plan 9 and the engineering scientists Dr. Cross parts, and the reason for the jump between one and the other. At some point I even expected a Jackpoint user would post to say Plan 9 probably forged those memos. At least that would explain the bogus details on Terahertz being right behind the visible spectrum "between waves and particles" or MGIC absorbing green spectrum "allowing for easy visibility under special lighting" (in common speak, something absorbing green spectrum is usually called "purple").

While not being only a Denver sourcebook, Spy Games is not a pure espionage sourcebook. Actually, the authors focused a lot on HUMINT and action : James Bond, Alias, Burn Notice, you pick your favorite. And I mean A LOT. SIGINT does not exist in this book. It is somewhat significant that the NSA only mention in the entire book is page 172, in the list of agencies. There is also no mention of reconnaissance satellites.

Part of the problem is, you cannot really draw a line between shadowrunners and spies. It's not like industrial espionage and deniability were of no concern to spies. Shadowrunners were the answer to the ethnic homogeneity of Japanese corporate intelligence services, the absence or relative weakness of "patriotism" among their employees, and the generalization of biometric border controls (compare to Mahmoud al-Mabhoud assassination in Dubai IRL, where Mossad likely burned two dozens of elite operatives whose biometrics are now known by every security services in the world). As far as Spy Games goes, the difference only lies in assets handling and costly hi-tech toys. Everything else spies do, the runners do as well, just on a different scale. A SIGINT chapter would have been carved out of Unwired for the most part (which would still have been better that, say, introducing a Terahertz radar that does the same thing than the Arsenal ultrawide band radar, with different rules).

The same thing goes for magic. The 3-pages chapter on "extraplanar intelligence" is just about free spirits involved in the Great Game. When you look at spells like Mind Probe or Influence, they should be "Great Game-breaker" just as they often are a game-breaker. Mental Manipulation Spells only get two passing mentions. If you asked me, rule-wise, field operatives should be recruited only among the people with the Magic Resistance quality and Exceptional Attribute (Willpower) just because of this. Well, in my game, the CIA would have something like three mages with Mind Probe, and they would become priority targets for every other agencies when their presence somewhere is known (and I would make sure my players know about this when they pick up their spells).

My main comment on Spy Games is about what the authors assume the reader knows. It happens all over the book, in almost every chapter. If you read things in order, you have to wait till page 55 to learn what that "treaty" you keep reading about actually is (as the author of the History of the FRFZ chapter consider that nothing that happened before the arrival of Ghostwalker is actually relevant). Okay, most people reading Spy Games should have read the SR corebook at some point and maybe remember about the Denver Treaty. But it's not like this is the only occurrence. Users' comment mention people like "Cuthbertson" or "Kasigi" before they are actually introduced. You're only told who these people are a few paragraphs later in the best case, but it can also be a dozen of pages. Sometime, you can guess : I understood that Sheba should be a country with Asmara as the capital, as I am not one of people who owns the Sixth World Almanac and remembers the entire map. I do know what the "CID" and "Lone Star's DPI" are and that calling MET 2000 a "little merc outfit" must probably be irony. I still don't know what "Sze Kau" and "zigs" are. And I have yet to check what type of vehicle the Lockheed Sparrow is to know what the Icarus is.
I admit this is somehow logical "in-context" as the Jackpoint users themselves know who/what those are and would post their comment when it is relevant, not only after one name or term have been covered in the download. But OOC, as a reader, I found this to be very annoying.

One odd subset of this issue is the History chapter. This chapter has three and half pages of text. There are exactly three dates given : "November 1" (the Crash), "2070" (Calcutta Olympics) and "2072" (Denver Olympics). No date is given for the arrival of Ghostwalker, the actual year of the Crash, the technomancers crisis and the tempo connection. If you don't remember them, you'll have to search another book.

I'll comment some specific points later.

Posted by: Nath May 28 2011, 06:40 PM

To start, I don't know if it's intentional, but the wordplay on the Denver Olympics and "Spy Games" had me rolling on the floor.

Anyone reading the news in the past few month would know that big financial players certainly are able to affect the European economy through their currency.

As far as the book went, Mitsuhama left Tsimshian in 2064. So the protest would be something like a decade late. Note this can be retconed with Mitsuhama having returned to Tsimshian (under Salish-Shidhe control) at some point since, or by one major trial taking place in Tsimshian around the same time than the Olympics in Denver, with several Tsimshan and MCT officials involved in the mining operations charged.

A Mafia-controlled club in Chinatown, what a strange idea... The story about the Mafia taking over the place is told later in the book.

Just kidding, right ? Right ?

I read Threats 2 and Corporate Guide, so I know what UnlimiTech is doing ad why Soaring-Owl left (or so I think). But to people who do no, this sentence absolutely makes no sense.

Nobody took the time to remind people that may not know that this Aztechnology board member is not (as far as we know) related to the Denver Mafia Chavez family.

So, Horizon Internal Intelligence is selling to outside, European powers ? As a side note, Horizon Internal Intelligence does not appear in the final agencies list, page 173.

Tease.

The sole fact that Haze comment is taken seriously by a guy like Mr. Bonds makes me wanna laugh. Income tax and VAT in a city the size of Denver would represent several hundreds millions of dollars a year nowadays. Just spending a day of tax on drugs would result in a death by overdose, whatever the drug is.

Aztechnology is the fourth world biggest megacorporation and a major in the defense and food industries, and Aztlan has a population of 168 millions. If they need a "smuggling pipeline" from Denver to fight a war, then someone is doing something fuckingly wrong somewhere.

Posted by: Nath May 28 2011, 06:43 PM

Comments continued.

IRL, almost every country in the world has a law banning espionage. In the US, the Espionage Act prohibits "unauthorized possession" of any information that "could be used to the advantage of a foreign nation". And all those countries also have intelligence services that can work because the law authorizes them to do so.

This is just a call for help. I'm not a native English speaker and no matter how many times I read this sentence, I still don't understand what it means.

What did it say in the previous chapter, "if you're firing a gun, you're doing it wrong" ? And now we're talking about shooting people in the face so an analyst somewhere can get a clearer graph in the Powerpoint he is going to show to his boss ?

No. This is not "true" espionage and this is not espionage at all. There is a difference between political communication and psy ops at large, and there's another difference between psy ops at large and espionage. Obviously, someone wanted to give an update to the CAS political scene and explain the Technocrat mistake in Sixth World Almanac. As I said about London above, it is okay by me to play an angle to develop something not directly related to a sourcebook central theme. But in this case, that's stretched too thin. At least, I would have McMulkin campaign manager being a former CAS Army psy ops specialist or something.

Compare to Somalia as described in War!, which boasts no mention of NeoNET and NeoNET plan at all.

So, Laguiller is spying one Knight Errant to learn if Soaring-Owl, who left KE, has been talking (about KE trade secrets I guess). So, by doing so, Laguiller is going to know if Soaring-Owl has been talking only when KE itself get wind of it. Which will be also the moment when KE will take steps to prevent those leaks from having any effect. Doesn't seem such a smart move.

IMO, considering what hackers and technomancers can do, fluff-wise and rule-wise, isolated networks and face-to-face interactions should be the norm in any corporations, intelligence services or organizations that value a bit of secrecy.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 28 2011, 07:23 PM

Best guess from another non-native:

Flipped, a bureaucrat that have been convinced to spy on their own nation or similar.

walk-in, someone that shows up with classified info. As they where not approached they could be trying to pass off false info as the real thing.

Hell, i think there is a real life example from WW2 where a British agent supposedly worked for the Germans as a double agent. But in reality he was still working for British intelligence. So the Germans thought they where dealing with a British agent that was spying on the British for the Germans, while he was actually feeding the Germans false data on behalf of British intelligence.

And during the cold war i think there was at least a couple of Russians that presented themselves to the British and US agencies and where questioned and held in isolation until their claims could be verified via independent sources. If one do not, then one get events like the the wedding that got bombed in Afghanistan because someone claimed it was a Taliban gathering. Later it was found that the source was a rival clan to the one that got bombed...

Posted by: hobgoblin May 28 2011, 07:23 PM

Well she is learning from the best...

Posted by: Nath May 28 2011, 07:40 PM

No, I knew what a walk-in is (it is actually explained in the paragraph that follows the sentence I quoted). I understand the first part of the sentence this way : handlers ("HUMINT officers") usually focus on what their contacts ("assets") can provide to their new master when they are flipped (rather than stealing documents from their employer for instance). My problem rather lies in the second part : "the professional operatives who are recruited or “walk-in” volunteers are run by counterintelligence simply because they have to control someone volunteering for treason." What is the meaning of the verb "run by" here and what kind of control does that give ?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 28 2011, 07:55 PM

supposedly every agent has a handler of some kind that they report to. I guess counterintelligence do the handling of volunteers as they are better equipped to spot double agents and such.

Btw, i suspect counterintel have some of the most paranoid and twisted minds of their nation...

Posted by: Fatum May 28 2011, 09:51 PM

Aren't embassies everywhere considered to be part of the soil of the nation they represent?

IEs are back, aren't you glad?

How do you know, maybe he's into sniffing shed dragon scales or whatever?

Posted by: Bira May 29 2011, 12:28 AM

Yes, but did it have to translate into a confusing chapter layout? This would have been fine in a novel, but not in something that's supposed to be used as reference. Answering "Where can I found out about weird conspiracies in this book?" with "In the gear chapter!" is a little counter-intuitive. Of course, not owning the book, I don't know how extensive that section is - it might have been meant simply as filler joke. If it was meant to be used by a gaming group, though, it should be in its own section.



"You must read the website to grok this book" is not really any better than "you must know the metaplot". It's a picket fence marking the material as "Insiders Only", which is kinda silly for RPG books, the Nineties notwithstanding.

Posted by: Fatum May 29 2011, 12:35 AM

I imagine that's more ok on the RPG market, where there's a high percentage of returning customers (who are likely to know said metaplot)...

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2011, 03:21 AM

Shadowrun has been around for over 20-years real time, AND 20-years game time. Metaplot kinda gets very thick...

Posted by: Nath May 29 2011, 08:44 AM

Hell yes. Embassies of every country, in every capital, have been extraterritorial ever since the 1961 Vienna Convention. Diplomatic extraterritoriality did inspire the corporate extraterritoriality in the first place.

Okay, there are actually parts of corporate extraterritorial rights that the diplomatic missions don't have per the Vienna Convention. But somehow, I kinda doubt the Denver embassies have shop retailing and land mining operations going on in Denver Hub.

Posted by: Mäx May 29 2011, 08:53 AM

It's less then 2 pages and some of it is about gear.
So it's most definitely filler(well possibly a little build up towards Conspiracy Theories), but i find it to be very characterful filler.

Posted by: Tycho May 29 2011, 11:33 AM

the biggest bullshit I have read so far is:

so /dev/grrl prefers MakeUp to Nannopaste Masks, which can change your complete face in an instant instead of haven to put makeup on for a while...

But I guess that is the quality you get if you let a teenage girl write about camouflage.

cya
Tycho

Posted by: hermit May 29 2011, 11:44 AM

Nanopaste are "unfavorable" for her, so yes. Why she gets to write about pro equipment all the time, though, beats me.

Posted by: Mäx May 29 2011, 12:52 PM

All the time?
I'm pretty sure that the Attitude has the only gear chapter written by her.

Posted by: hermit May 29 2011, 01:00 PM

Attitude, Spy Games ... her and Plan 9. I don't really see why none of the less unprofessional and freakish shadowtalkers get to write equipment. I really would prefer a return to Arsenal-ish formating for items, and especially, those tables. Because the way it's currently done is less than ideal.

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2011, 03:52 PM

I sometimes wonder why she gets to write about ANYTHING, really. But, then again, she is on the JackPoint for a reason. Modern Fashion and Pop Culture if nothing else. After all, look at the bands shown in Attitude, obviously written by someone that doesn't know who the "Up and Comers" are, and is really over-enthused that some old bands are back or still going.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 29 2011, 04:45 PM

Fastjack allows her in for a reason, most likely for insider info at some corp or other.

Nothing like keeping a kid around, and then get them riled up enough that they blabber about something that they maybe should not have.

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2011, 05:13 PM

Actually, considering the group she's with, she's probably a good enough hacker on her own (Certainly good enough to hack days off from her high school classes.). The main issue a lot of folks have is that she seems to be so ignorant of the Shadows and it's history. Which, considering her majorly misinformed education she got as a Corporate Kid, is not exactly something that's hard to understand why. It does, however, make her appear like an idiot when she doesn't know how/why/when something happened and has to ask the "Old Folks" (Some of whom are only in their 20s) what is obvious to folks who have followed Shadowrun for years.

The flipside is that this allows for metagaming information to be given out to new players as well.

I think the other issue people have is the "Girly" image she has which goes against so much of what Shadowrun appears to be. After all, it's supposed to be synthleather, mirrorshades and razorblades cyberpunk. Not rainbow-farting unicorns and sundresses. That said, hey, it's her personal style, and might put a lot of Mr. Johnsons at ease by dealing with someone that "Is almost normal" rather than the usual scum (s)he's had to deal with for so many years.

I still say hand her over to me and I'll rough up those rounded edges of hers.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 29 2011, 05:33 PM

re: /dev/grrl

If we ever figure out why, we'll tell you. Some of us are none too happy with her being around, either.

Posted by: hermit May 29 2011, 05:47 PM

YES. I wonder that, too.


Jackpoint =/= ShadowSEA. ShadowSEA is open to any 4chan.2070 hack who can fight their way in. JackPoint is FastJack's elitarian littlen node on the net, which he founded because ShadowSEA is too unwashed for elite runners like the Jackpointers. Except for /dev/.

My main issue with her, though, isn't her being there. FastJack can invite anyone he wants, and if he takes /dev/ under his wing, so be it. What galls me is that she gets to write the sections of the last two Deep Shadows books that SHOULD have been left to people who know their shit, not some brat who can hack a node (big deal in SR4) and considers herself a shadowrunner. A brat with few connections save FastJack and her highschool buddies, a brat with little to zero combat experience, essentially a corp kid who likes to slum it for the lulz and thrillz. Now, perfectly fine as a shadowtalker, but petrfectly shit for an informed voice on the latest in runner-related technology. See "I don't like nanopaste BECAUSE IT MAKES ME LOOK FAT" for proof. And frankly, neither is Plan 9 suited to write about serious running.

The current writers should really use characters who have a reason to write something for their in-book voices, not randomly selected characters or characters where they purposely have a bad voice describing very important things like equipment.

And damnit, learn how to format a book so it does make sense as a gaming ressource as well as work as a book on it's own. It's not fucking rocket science. It's been done by dozens of authors before you. And please, tables instead of copypasting sidebars. Because that is total crap.


Well, her being there isn't the problem, it's how she's being used.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 29 2011, 05:58 PM

must be getting Slamm-o riled to no end


indeed.


Hell, say when and where and lets make it a party

Posted by: Mäx May 29 2011, 06:25 PM

She is an informed voice on the latest in fashion, which makes sense.
Attitudes gear section isn't in any way "latest in runner-related technology".
In Spy Games gear section she has exactly one sidebar and thats pretty much on the same subject as Attitudes gear chapter.
Can't really figure out why her personal reference for face changing matters to you, when she did still mention the other options.

Posted by: hermit May 29 2011, 06:29 PM

Except for the nascent space marine armour. I agree she probably knows *something* about fashion, but I'd be suprised if she could outdo Kat (Rockerbabe) or Ma'fan (face/disguise expert adept) there. Countrary to popular belief, high fashion is NOT teenage fashion.


Because it's weird, to say the least, that in a community of hackers, spies, mercenaries, thugs and bounty hunters, those least quqalified get to write sections that are very important for everyone there?

Posted by: redwulf25 May 29 2011, 07:16 PM

Well, her quote implies that she thinks guards with AR capability (and what guard wouldn't?) would have an easier time spotting a nano-paste mask than subtle alterations with makeup. In which case that would seem more a problem of fluff not matching rules than /dev/ being a /moron/.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 29 2011, 07:33 PM

rfids in the mask perhaps?

Posted by: Fatum May 29 2011, 08:04 PM

What kind of disguise device has an irremovable label saying "hello I'm a disguise device"?

Posted by: hermit May 29 2011, 08:15 PM

Oh get real. Why should nanopaste be WiFi capable? Because it's so unwieldy to just skinlink it? Because you want your disguise utensils scream and shout they're actually a disguise?

This overreaching WiFi-is-everywhere idea of SR4's is totally idiotic. It makes ZERO sense, for runners or anyone doing clandestine things to have their weaposn, cyber and bond gadgets cheerfully messaging every bystander and security detail that they're actually illegal equipment. WiFi can be easily removed, and there is no reason at all disguise equipment should be WiFi capable in the first place. It'S not like Makeup is going to broadcast it's actually a pair of fake ears and coloured contacts either, or is it?

Actually, even having semilegal cyber - or really, ANY cyber or ANY weapon - be WiFi capable is utter lunacy in a world where computer security is a sad joke unless you happen to be the mainframe of a military spacestation. The rules books even say so. So no, that falls flat on it's face.

Posted by: Tycho May 29 2011, 09:58 PM

If that was the author's idea, just beat him with the rulebook until he knows his shit...

but I guess the rest of the chapter don't demonstrate rule-knowledge either.

cya
Tycho

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2011, 10:16 PM

Can we beat /dev/grrl instead?

Posted by: Sengir May 30 2011, 01:44 PM

I remember seeing an episode of Fringe in which number station were claimed to have already been on air when the first human switched on a radio. Maybe that's were the idea comes from.

Posted by: hermit May 30 2011, 01:46 PM

I thought it was a reference to Lost, but you may be onto something there. Still, wtf.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 30 2011, 02:13 PM

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Numbers_station

Posted by: Sengir May 30 2011, 02:27 PM

I'm quite sure everybody knows what number stations are IRL, but Spy Games has some weird conspiracy theories about them

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 30 2011, 02:32 PM

1- They are used by governments to send messages with one-time pads to spies.
2- They are used by the Maçons, Illuminati, Majestic 12 or whatever it is the semi-secret organization of the month that is trying to take over the world to send messages with one time pads to their agents.
3- They are used as transmission tests by some radios (boooooooooring).
4- They are ghosts trying to communicate with the living by sending messages with one-time pads that only mediums can understand.

Am I forgeting something else?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 30 2011, 02:39 PM

Actually had to look it up, so i figured i should post the link for reference reasons.

Posted by: hermit May 30 2011, 02:49 PM

They are the Machine God talking to you. Or rather, the Deep Resonance. Which seems to be what the blurb in the Spy Games equipment section is all about. Because 1,5 pages of weirdness really help if you want to look up the stats of that self-healing car paint or the Icarus.

Posted by: Sengir May 30 2011, 03:41 PM

Rule 34, obviously

@Hogob: OK, I assumed this to be somewhat common knowledge

Posted by: Megu May 31 2011, 06:35 AM

I hadn't heard of them either.

Sengir, I like the way you think.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 5 2011, 04:53 PM

Hmm, Aztech Crawler, weapon mount, SMG (tho one could go whole hog crazy and use a LMG), drone case the shape of a shoe...

Posted by: Faelan Jun 5 2011, 07:32 PM

I have an issue with the Inculcate Metamagic. It provides a method of completely blasting the Augmented Skill Cap, and can be made to last days. Essentially let me borrow some extra firearms skill guys. Thanks watch as I run around and do everyones job except I now have twice the skill any normal has, and am more skilled than any Physical Adept. Was the intent to provide a single bonus die per three physical, because the way it is written it seems like you add them together, and kick ass from there.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 5 2011, 08:41 PM

Palantir? Palantir? Really? Really?!! I don't expect to like everything in a book, I don't even expect every rule to be very well thought out, but this is pretty lame.

Posted by: hermit Jun 5 2011, 09:46 PM

Miniaturize rules, you forgot them. Then you can fit it, LMG included, into a pack of cigarettes.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 5 2011, 11:33 PM

The bullets, however, are also miniaturized.

Which means they might annoy a Pixie.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 03:58 AM

You can only get twice the skill any normal has if your level 6 initiate(8 if we take account aptitude) and you have enought donors you can kill to get that, after all you have to do 3 point of physical damage for every 1 point you want to get, also to make it last for weeks you have to pay 6 karma(8 if you want to have douple that of aptitude guy) assuming you started at 6, if not then it's 1 more karma for every point you where under 6.

Posted by: Tzeentch Jun 6 2011, 04:41 AM

-- I have learned that Coeur d' Alene is so close to Boise and the PCC that it merits special attention (note: CDA and Boise are on opposite ends of Idaho). I had a good laugh at that (Spy Games, p. 169).

Posted by: hermit Jun 6 2011, 06:16 AM

Nah, they're still that generic SR ammo that works on every weapon in a given cathegory.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 6 2011, 06:18 AM

Do I have to hulk out again?

Posted by: hermit Jun 6 2011, 08:01 AM

*hands Dr. Banner's Extra Strong RadAway*

Posted by: Sengir Jun 6 2011, 08:52 AM

Also, it's blood magic. Blood magic is supposed to be powerful with enough "donors" and is generally not something PCs get

Posted by: hermit Jun 6 2011, 12:45 PM

So after Bloodzilla it's the Incredible Flesh Tearer?

Posted by: Faelan Jun 6 2011, 12:55 PM

My point is that it does not spell out that it is a bonus of 1 die per 3 damage, secondly it ties Active Skills to initiate grades. Magic is pretty bad ass as it is, do we really need to make a potentially unlimited advancement in Firearms a part of this. Of course the fact that there is nothing saying he cant boost Sorcery is also pretty major cheezzz to me. It should be limited to the normal Augmented Skill Cap or be restricted to a single follow on action.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 04:19 PM

I just can't understand how you make such a fuss over the fact that an Initiate grade 6 adept can get a non permanent firearm skill thats fopping 3 higher then gunslinger adepts skill, or maybe only 2 higher, for the low low cost of 100+ karma and having to ritually murder a pair of dudes with the firearm skill in question.
It can be an usefull metamagic, i just don't see becoming a super gunslinger as one of the good uses for it.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 6 2011, 05:40 PM

Why just Initiate Grade 6? Why not 10 or even higher? The more grades the worse it gets. There is no mention of a Ritual, just as it does not clealry state what the bonus is. You could simply execute a couple of people. Why not use it for Sorcery? The thing is as it is written it leaves a whole bunch of holes open for abuse. Simply it is poorly designed, and poorly written.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 06:09 PM

Because an actual adept in play is unlikely to become even a grade 6 initiate, 10 or higher isn't realistic at all.
As for the ritual part, here's a quote from the description of cannibalize, witch inculcate says it's similar to
"The sacrifice and consumption of the donor’s blood or flesh allows the adept
to temporarily enhance his own abilities"

Posted by: hermit Jun 6 2011, 06:10 PM

It's still not slow, at least. But yes, the rules are somewhat strange.

BTW, can a Free Spirit learn this metamagic?

Posted by: Faelan Jun 6 2011, 06:21 PM

Unlikely sure, but possible. It says similar to cannibalize, it does not say use the rules for cannibalize. How is it similar? Another example of lazy mechanics. If you are going to add crunch make sure it is clear. Temporary is fine but even Cannibalize is restricted to augmented maximums. I have a real problem when the only uncapped portion of the game begins to allow other portions to be uncapped.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 02:57 PM

Really? Had a Physical Adept Grade 8 Initiate in SR3...
Have a Physical Adept Grade 5 Initiate in SR4....

Not that unlikely, actually. Though it DOES take time and Karma.

As for Inculcate. Yeah, Reads like a Ritual to me.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 7 2011, 05:24 PM

And after how much karma is this?
I din't say it's impossible and i think even you can agree that initiate grade 10(+) isn't really even worth mentioning.

And my point stands "i can get a temporary gun skill of 12 by spending 100+ karma" isn't really some super OP idea for a character build.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 07:33 PM

Yep, A bit...

And no arguments... it is not all that superior of an option, in my opinion...

Posted by: Eimi Jun 20 2011, 10:47 PM

So, I looked through this thread, and googled, and if it was out there somewhere, I missed it: Does anyone happen to know what the maximum rating of the Fingerprint Morphing cyberware is? Because it isn't listed in the OOC gear information (other than being alluded to in the whole "this cyberware is basically retinal duplication but for prints in how you use it" entry and in the Cost section).

Posted by: aikar Jun 23 2011, 07:40 AM

Hello everyone

I don't really understand how to use the Face Case (page 143f).
In the fluff text it is described as a face scanner/automatic mask creator which provides more detail than the Latex Face Mask.

The Box on the right only says it adds its rating (1-3) to the disguise test.

Is it an enhancement for the latex mask (and adds its rating to the rating of the mask) or does it replace it (and produces masks with its rating)? Is it one use only or may it be reused? Does it already include the Facial recognition scanner described in the fluff text or do I have to buy this additionally?

Thanks for clarification

Posted by: Sengir Jun 24 2011, 11:13 AM

My personal guess is that the author was simply not aware of the fact that the Latex Face Mask in the Core Book is not a premade mask, but actually a kit which produces a mask according to specification, and hence came up with the same idea. There are quite a few items in SG which read like exact duplicates of earlier equipment, presumably due to the lacking rules familiarity of the new shake 'n bake freelancers...

So just use the existing mask, the the rules for that one are far more complete.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 24 2011, 05:23 PM

"Shake 'n' Bake Freelancers! It's what's for dinner!" "And I helped!"

Posted by: Sengir Jun 25 2011, 01:04 PM

I just had this image of Jason Hardy putting a handful of SR set pieces into a bag and shaking it, with a bunch of freelancers shuffling around his feet and exclaiming "And I helped!"

Posted by: Grinchy McScrooge Jul 16 2011, 07:25 AM

I think Spy Games looks pretty cool, but then I'm a sucker for espionage-type stuff. I blame a steady diet of James Bond as a child. Unfortunately, since CGL's distribution in Canada is way more miss than hit (can be partially read as Lion Rampant are complete drek), I haven't yet been able to find a copy of neither Spy Games nor A Fistful Of Credsticks. I know I could just buy the PDF's, but I'm quite partial to dead-tree format. I have a professionally-printed copy of each of the recent ebooks.

Guess I'm just ranting/venting a little because of all the trouble I've had to go through to acquire some of my Shadowrun collection. It's been a lot of ordering from The States, which can get really pricey very quickly.

*sigh*

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Posted by: Aku Jul 16 2011, 12:48 PM

I thought it was a pdf only release?

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 09:36 PM

Nope, it's out in hardcopy now. The pdf was out earlier than the paper book, yeah, but it was never a pdf only.

Posted by: Aku Jul 16 2011, 10:20 PM

Oops, I've been struggling to keep up. Still, it might be Grinchy's best way to get it since he's struggling to find a dead tree version

Posted by: hermit Aug 8 2011, 09:30 PM

So, this is my much-belated wrapup of the Spy Games review. I decided to reformat and in little parts edit my review, for easier reading.

Now, to the meat of the book.

The first chapter is the largest: Denver. First things first: This section is structured like the classic guides of old, with a section on getting there up front, then facts in a nutshell, then expanding more broadly into each sector. Nice. Certainly beats the disorganised mess that is War’s Bogota section. Props: Someone remembered Denver is not at sea level. There actually are people at CGL who know how geography works. And it actually thinks about ways of using technology to get around altitude problems! Too bad it doesn’t mention things fro Arsenal, like OxyRush nanites, or neo-EPO infusions, though. The olympic guide texts threwn in are definitly a nice touch.

The premise of border checkpoints on every street, and during rush-hour traffic, doing high-detail searches along the lines of the old East/West German borders is a bit ridiculous if you wish to keep a city functional, but that’s from the riginal Denver setting, I suppose, and people who actually know what such checks are like aren’t exactly common (and for the record, there was next to no borer traffic in divided Berlin. That was the point of the wall). I guess this can be handwaived, but still, how the hell does the Hub ever do business if only one person an hour can enter or leave. And speaking from personal experience, one hour for a thorough passenger-and-vehicle search (including queuing) is very optimistic.

Two blunders in the Hardegraves clinic section: SURGE, not UGE, struck when the comet passed in 2061 (UGE made Orks and Trolls and happened in 2021); and there are four known treatments for old age in Arsenal. Also, I don’t really understand why soul-eating is any less abhorrent to Nagas, Pixies, Centaurs and all the other things that are intelligent enough to sign up for a SIN, but YMMV.

And it seems Yamatetsu’s bid to enter the Olympics side by side with nations has been granted? I can’t remember reaing about that, but won’t claim it didn’t happen in some book (I’d appreaciate a header in which though).

Overall, the facts-at-your-fingertips section is nicely written, save fort he above mentioned inconsistencies. Obviously, someone took a copy of the Denver section of SoNA and the Denver book and tried to figure out a way to progress things. Much more Ghostwanking than necessary, but the Ghostwalker situation isn’t the current writers‘ fault. Still, a little less Ghostwanking ould be nice, and grounding Great Dragons in general. Maybe by killing off GW? All he does is play Godzilla and be in the way of a decent plot anyway.

Denver history seems a bit strange at first, but tries to progress what is in the above mentioned books following the post-2064 storyline. For the most part it does this well. One aside: The safest way to protect data from technos is to print it out and put it in a box. Just saying. It’s not exactly rocket science.

In Denver sectors, things start to really get weird. “With Geneva cut off and in a constant state of siege, Denver is the new center of world politics.” – because what, the World only consists of North American nations and North American megacorps? That is one hell of a stretch. Why not New York, home to the Corp Court and a port city the rest of the world – which is not American – actually knows about? Why some backwater city at the arse of North America that is run by Godzilla the Sue Dragon? Few nations except the sector nations even have embassies there (they’re listed in detail a lot later). One major player in North America – Aztlan– is entirely missing (The Tir has been mysteriously allowed entry, despite GW’s ‘kill on sight’ policy on Tir citizens, as we will learn much, muc later). No European and only few Asian countries to be found, but yes, it’s the navel of world politics now. The mind boggles and boggles.

It also contains the first self contradiction. So Denver weathered the Crash really well compared to places like Calcutta, but the entire middle class evacuated the CAS sector because of the Crash’s huge effects. Uh huh. It also hires university graduates for their service industry. McHugh’s in the CAS sector must be one intelligent place for a Soyburger shop. Or does “to that end, it actively recruits graduating university students, tourists, and even former Ute nationals to work in the service industry” imply that everyone who enters the CAS sector will be pressed to work in it’s burger shops and Wal Marts and call centers? Either way, the mind boggles. And despite being the most pro-gun country in the world according to NRA haven – pardon, Gun heaven – poor people in the bad parts of the CAS sector (which could as well be the North Korean sector by that witeup) defend themselves with pointy sticks.

Also, Chinese are now pigeonholed as hardcore metaracists? That’s pretty new, considering that the Hong Kong writeup never mentions this. Is this the trademark CGL between-the-lines racism from War rearing it’s ugly head again? China, because it scares America, now is the new evil in SR?

Also, what is it with CGL and the sap-shooting trees, really.

The Hub is less weird, but only slightly so. What, only in the Hub are embassies considered exterritorial property? Unlike what, everyplace else? Rrrrright. Also, how are night clubs to attract visitors from all sectors, if there is a curfew? Ever been to a city under a curfew? Did it have a bustling nightlife? Also, while mentioned before, not a single word on what embassies are located within the hub and given special exterritoriality embassies elsewhere do not have. That should be here and not at the other end of the Denver chapter. Or it should at least be referenced.

The PCC sector is set up as a study in contrasts – expressive, inefficient artsy Ute versus efficiency-obsessed communazi Pueblo. While I am pretty sure neither nation had those traits before, it also appears a bit strange to me how much the Pueblo efficiency (which looks a lot less like the nation I remember from NAN, and more like the spooky faux state from Brazil, the Terry Gilliams movie, in being not efficient at all) is pigeonholed into something the author probably imagine evil Germans to be like. The methods used by the Pueblo to streamline restaurants, as an aside, are not efficient at all the way they are described. However, to a degree, every sensible restaurant uses them. Another aside: if the PCC has developed that way, the LA chapter in Corp Enclaves should look drastically different. Again, Research. And after efficience nazi Pueblo and slacker, artsy Ute, we get the macho, wolf-like Sioux. How nice, every Indian tribe wears their hat. Even the tribes that aren’t the tribes at all.

UCAS sector! Full of proud, gun-toting and paranoid Bush era Americans who jump up and down shouting USA USA USA. Because they can has independence! The gallery of cheap clichés continues. They also have a cowboy attitude and like to shoot them some Injuns. Bet that makes them really popular with the wolf-like macho Sioux! Also, while they have the highest wages, they apparently don’t go shopping much, because they dress more poorly than everyone else. Because Matrix shopping seems nonexistent in Denver. Come to think of it, the omnipresent Matrix of SR4 is notoriously missing from this Denver Sectors writeup, in general. It reads more like … today’s Denver with cliché’d Injuns and Confederates and Yankees. Oh, and of course, Ghostwanking.

LOL, the Draco Fondation’s homeless shelter presses homeless for info on dragons and artifacts before letting them in. Because bums are ideal sources for true information on dragons and artifacts.

Okay, this does it: “Brown Palace Hotel. A Seattle institution, the Brown Palace Hotel boasts rooms full of distinct and unusual pieces of art.” Dear author, do you know which city you are writing about? It seems not, because you mistake Seattle for Denver, apparently. It’s marginally understandable if a writer has no idea where Bogota lies (it’s just a few clicks away on Wikipedia, of course, but things like browsers can confuse some people), but confusing two US cities? What the hell did you do in your 13 years of high school?

The Aurora Warrens has a detailedly described Ghoul Meat Market that nobody seems to bother to shut down, but not a single gang is even mentioned by name. Way to go to miss on local colour such settings need. And, in the wrapup, Ghostwanking galore. Somehow, Ghostwalker unifies people, especially those who hate him, under his banner. Somehow, this city that is the new navel of world politics because it has a few consulates is provincial to a level that makes Hicksville, Montana seem worldly and open-minded. And somehow this unifies them as the independent nation of Denver. Eh. This doesn’t come together, not written like this. Overall, Denver Sectors is by far the shabbiest part of Spy Games. Whoever wrote this at the very least be partnered with a more experienced author until they can write an actual text on their own. This chapter really would have needed some lining up with the rest of the book.

Corporate Interests is better written but also has it’s bizarre parts. So Ares’ standing with the paranormal community is bad because they tried to enslave bug spirits? What? Because there’s this huge bond of brotherhood among nonhumans for being, well, nonhuman, or what? Let’s just not consider this written, since the whole Bugs-enslaving thing supposed to be ultra secret anyway. The awakened might be wary because Ares doused Chicago with FAB III, but hell, they were realy desperate. And nuked the place before, so it’s not like they had it ut for the Awakened in particular.

Other than that, though, it’s a nice chapter, detailing what all current big 10 megas and homegrown and smaller corps are up to in Denver. It’s solidly written, if not exciting, and offers sufficient detail. It also gives nice details on local corps, such as Warpdrive and Eagle, and Mesametric which needed some fleshing out.

The Culture Politics starts again that Denver now suddenly is the focus of international politics. It doesn’t even try to explain this anymore. It just “mysteriously happened”. Even though Denver has nothing that’s of interest to non-American nations. It has Ghostwalker, boo fucking hoo. After this little gem, it presents us this bit of deep wisdom: “The Front Range Free Zone’s cultural landscape is informed by the politics as much as the politics are shaped by the culture. To understand one, you must understand the other.” No shit, Sherlock. Guess what, it’s like this everywhere. You forgot to mention the sky is blue. And please stop comparing Seattle, or Denver, to West Berlin. You apparently have absolutely no idea of what West Berlin was like. It is highly annoying to see people who know nothing about that period perpetuate bullshit like “History shows similar circumstances to be detrimental to the citizens of such cities, like the East and West Berlin of the mid-twentieth century.” East Berlin never was a fucking enclave. It was the fucking capital of East Germany. West Berlin never was divided into subsectors with any sort of controls (the Western powers effectively merged their sectors, withdrew to their bases and let the locals do their thing, only coming out in force if the Russians and East Germans were being stupid). If you really have to compare Denver to any real place, try Belfast before Good Friday, or Jerusalem and the West Bank (Seattle’s more like a very affluent and well-armed Gaza that’s the size of the West Bank).

Also, again, with a nightly curfew, how can restaurants with late hours operate? Even given some sort of special permit for the restaurant, I doubt the customers they need to operate have one? That doesn’t quite check out. If sufficient people for a nightlife of sorts had exemptions from the curfew, the curfew itself kind of stops making any sense.

And finally we learn which international eyes have been cast on Denver. It’s … the Algonquian-Manitoo Council! Yep, with such a heavyweight in the international political scene being involved, Denver truly is the navel of international politics now. Really, nothing hints at that. Yes, other North American nations will take notice. Some foreign nations apparently do – Amazonia, Japan, the Expanded Vatican, Egypt, and Austria. But other than that? Nobody cares. And why should they. Denver is a local, temporary hub in world politics, quite unlike the seat of the UN, or New York with the ZOB and the temporary UN HQ, or cities with international relevance like national capitals of important players. Denver is a backwater in the Rockies that’s relevant if you own a piece of North America because of the Contract of Denver and Ghostwalker, or if you happen to be a T-bird smuggler, but that’s all there is to it.

The AMC is in Aztlan’s pocket not because of loans, but because Aztlan monopolized their food industry through rather nasty means.

Tir Tairngire is allowed into Denver? What? Didn’t Ghostwalker issue that any Tir citizen would be killed on sight? Would this please be explained? No, it is not, or I forgot something from Dragons or SoNA.

Overall, though, a worthwhile section. As is the next piece, on lower-level power players. It’s Hardy’s random NPC dump again, but at least this time some of the NPCs might actually be useful. Criminal Elements also is pretty useful – and finally, info on gangs. I had already given up on that. The gangs are varied and okay written, though more detail on their turf/primary area, and a few more of them, would have been nice.

Next is a hotspots section, much like the one in War! which was so bad it had to be rewritten in parts for the German translation. I'm happy to say this section is a good improvement on the last Deep Shadows book.

The E.C. chapter has some bumpyness and sounds like it was written by a German (Lars, were you very tired when writing this? Usually, your English is better), though I found it makes sense for German-Dutch Ecotope in a way. It's an interesting writeup though and makes me want to know more about Brussles, E.C.

London surprised me most in that it did not make me want to type a colourful, insulting rant. It was a logical development of the SoE plot and respectful to canon for the most part. I care a great deal about London as a setting, and while I miss Lord Marchment, they backpedaled from their making this yet another Seattle clone setting apparently. That's the right choice. Maybe, just maybe, conspiracy Theories will not be an utter and total disaster.

Now, Kansei and Austin are only marginally interesting but at least add some local hat to the settings. "Berlin South" (cringe) here, with Lone Star; Ninja Samurai Corpers duking it out with Katanas there. Those settings will not win the cake but hey, they're okay. They even tell you why you might be interested in them, which is something that Bogota in War didn't manage in 50-odd pages. Improvement.

Nairobi is nice to see a mention too, since Africa usually is mentioned only in an offhand way, dismissed as the home of hellhole feral places where people eat each other habitually and love ghouls. And finally, Tel Aviv, another city I've long hoped to hear from again. and it's done reasonably well (as in, SoA quality) again.

Next stop: Thorn's Spying 101. Well, Tradecraft, but that's what it is. That and Loose Alliance level write-ups of agencies and the likes.

So. Thorn is the Brit/Tír Michael Westin of Shadowrun? He sure sounds the part in Tradecraft. Thorne's Top Tricks remind me of the voiceovers in Burn Notice - tone, topics covered, their relative randomness (but at least vague coherence with the surrounding narrative). Not that that's a bad thing for me, I like that show, I even like Westin's somewhat smug tips and tricks (actually, I compiled some 20 out of a long list I found on a web site for newbie players as a quick 101 on what I think a runner should know). Spy Games' Tradecraft could work the same way, which is, I guess, what the chapter aims at. Also, some parts remind me of Spy Games (the movie), like the almost literal part about lies (keep it simple, bla bla). Hey, at least someone did some research here.

Possible Nitpick: CIA and Langley are a CAS affair in SR, right (being in Virginia)? So why compare them to Yale (which is UCAS in SR) and speak of "this country" as though there was an actual USA in SR?

Then, agencies. Here's where we'll see whether canon is getting the War treatment or is handled as respectful as it ought to. First is the UGB. standard russian agency stuff, but reasonably well done. MI5/MI6 next. Can't really remember those form London, but IIRC they were in SoE. Argus and Aegis Cognito then (given the existence of Jellyfish Intel, I'll never say anything about theior dorky names again), Information Secretariat, the CIA and DIA and all the other UCAs and CAS agencies (well, some of them, going by the current USA and it's 25-odd agencies). Short, fast facts in Thorn's anecdotal Westin way of telling things. Reads nice enough. I'd almost say this book is not overall going to stink, but then again I said that about Attitude too. And it did in the end. So, reserving my judgement for now.

A treatise on the tech curve, Technos and the value of not relying on a Matrix that is fundamentally impossible to secure (and emotitoys; not sure if I am angry about their mention or amused at their dismissal) later, we get to the NPC section. Okay, Hardy seems madly in love with teh idea of putting NPCs into his books. The upside: clear differentiation between crunch and fluff, even if they're on the same page (whcih, mostly, they are not). It's not quite ideal but I can't think of any better way to possibly do it, hence I'll save you smugness here and just say it's probably best way to handle this. Unless you want to ban the crunch into the back of the book entirely, that is. The article ended a bit abruptly, with the page space wasted at the end of the 'hotspots's ection, surely a smug good-bye from Thorne would have been possible?

Next stop: Counterintelligence. So it's time to discuss the opposition of spies as we know them. Writing is solid and sounds different from Thorne, because it's a different voice. That's not been standard in previous books and hence, a good sign. Again, the writing's quality seems on par with Loose Alliances, which is good enough (though not great). Info on the working of agencies tries to take into account that SR is not the current real world with elves, but has mechanisms that are real gamechangers in the realm of intelligence. Well, that's also a step up from Attitude (which failed to even acknowledge the prevalence of holo-TV (TriD) and SimSense). I really like the agencies covered, too. The UCAS now has something that is the Jack Bauer CTU in all but name. On a side note, do I understand this right, the UCAS has even more semiindependent or fully independent agencies than the US? Here's something I miss: inter-agency rivalry. It made 9/11 possible, so it can have horrendous consequences. It should get more than a passing mention by Thorne.Anyway. Truth dancers: interesting. KE: well, that's one of these story updates. At least it fits in and does not stand out like a sopre thumb, like that Horizon guy in War's Bogota article who actually isn't even remotely in Bogota and probably does not exist. KE's entry sound useful too for a Seattle campaign. The SSD are a counterintelligence group masquerading as a protection detail - isn't that what the Secret Service does? Anyway, they're a scary corporate-based enemy. GRU, of course. Zone Defense Force (why isn't the ZDF in teh large Denver section though?).- And the Stasi-like Texas rangers, which again made me both laugh and want to cry. Nice writeup though. Not planning a trip to Texas with any of my campaigns anytime soon, but if I did the Rangers woulkd definitly feature. A Mix of Harry Callaghan, deep-accented Texans and grey-faced creepy Stasi who bug everything and have an incredible web of contacts. Neat. Oversight Board - does it have Aurors?

The chapter then wraps up with two counterintelligence scenarios narrated by Hard Exit. It's actuually solid writing, and I like how he describes the first, an Aztlaner doublebluffing locals in Yucatan into killing UN forces, adnd how Hard Exit stopped him (through harsh and illegal in most civilised states means). The second sums up an op in Denver, a classical investigation and a masterful (and almost legal) conviction of a double agent. The kind of stuff you see in shows like Lie To Me and The Closer. As it'S titled "the Legal Divide", I missed some explanation wrapping it up; as is, it'S more like Hard Exit Tells War Stories. Niot bad, but it could've needed an editor's touch and a new writeup, maybe a pargraph explaining the legalness in the elgal divide.

Bottom line: useful. Not stunning, or dazzlingly written, but solid and usable, tells you why you should care about it, and comes across as coherent with previous chapters, and established Shadowrun canon.

And now, since it's one of the raw spots in the book, comes another chapter that really left me wondering. It has all the makings of a chapter, but where the previous is some 20 pages long, this is a stunning *three*, including a one-page chapter intro fic. What the fuck?. Is this where the missing 36 pages were? Spy Games was originally announced as 206 pages, but clocks in only 170 in it's final form. What has been cut? Did sanity prevail over madness and potted plant plots, a continuation of the "storyline" introduced in War? do I even *want* to know?

Anyway. The one-and-a-half page text detailing "extraplanar intelligence" actually is a good summary of why and how the metaplanes and spirits affect the way intelligence works in SR. That's a good thing, but does it need it's own 1,5 page chapter? Actually, 1,25 pages, since one quarter of the second page again is empty. This format leaves me wondering, even though the writing as such is not bad or anything. Why not just attach this to the previous chapter? Is this intro fic so damn important to some obscure metaplot build-up? Not to even mention that Milan the tent city (this is Italy, not Vael Dothrak) is the first major break with SR canon in this book. A WTF is due, though less because of bad content (apart from the intro fic, which is well enough written but takes place in a world that is not Shadowrun) and more because of the bizarre formating. What the hell.

Okay, on with the book. Equipment, the last section. Overall impression: As in Attitude, with some rulesslightly more wonky. Which is not bad because equipment was the best chapter in Attitude. Lots of stuff here I'll like to use, some old things raise their heads again.

We start off with general stuff on camouflage we know (and I loved) from the SOTA books, ported into SR4. This is quite nice. The rules work a bit odd, as mentioned by others, and could have used someone familiar with the core rules books to look them over and straighten them out. But they still seem to work more or less, just using unnecessary deviant rules from similar items elsewhere. I like that sidebar with the fake SIN's contents. CCC got stats in this thread; at least that. Commlink Accessories seem a bit futile to me, but if you want to do everything with your commlink now, including decapitating people and blow hit up, you'll love it (I prefer internal links for the business work and secondary external links for private things and PAN, maintianing a business and a private PAN on my charactetrs). Commlink mods are not forme, hence, but YMMV. Some of the other stuff seems really redundant, but hey, Ican still use them for brand names of high-class image recognition software. Gadgets are fun for the most part. New Spells are interesting and, o far, I haven't found a terrifyingly broken thing like Slow. Inculate is, as mentioned before, the final piece for my Space Marine project. Other than that, some metamagics seem redndant, as others have said.

One thing I miss is the ELINT stuff from SOTA. what happened to sattelite coverage, drones, and stuff like this? Granted, Spy Games goes farmore Bond than Bauer, but it should've been accounted for. Not that the Gadgets aren't nice, which they are. Overall, this chapter leaves a positive impression, as well as the impression that it could have been a lot better if there had been tighter editing by someone who knows the rules.

Then, it continues with something completly unrelated: Conspiracy theories and bizarreness. In ... a chapter on equipment. In continuing text, with nothing at all indicating a complete change of topic. Like, what? Was there no fitting short story and art so you could make it's own chapter of these 1,5 pages? Which actually are 1,75 pages, making this longer than extraplanar intelligence. The mind boggles.

Contents are: The Palantir - Quantum Communications. Well, I guess they're useful for that extreme fringe of Deep Space Shadowrun, so you don't have 10minute delays in communication (actually, we're more talking about hours with blackouts due to albedo, but meh). Number stations are the Machine God Talking To US ...? Bizarre. But that is the intent of that section, I guess. Lonsestar can search commlinks? Boo-fucking-hoo, really. Like they couldn't get away with this before. Nerfing the Resonance Realms has long been overdue to make data runs without a technomunchkin viable again, so good stuff. And finally, Skulls&Bones, who are behind everything in the world because the world apparently starts at the Californian West Coast and ends at the Eastern Seaboard. America focus much, here? Anyhows, how does the New Revolution factor in this, then? Alamos 20K and the American agencies? Mr Knight? Daviar? McBain? Colloton? Coleman (Daniel, not Loren)? Look, if you want to build up an America-centric world conspiracy, at least tie up all the weirdness in America. There is plenty of it, after all.

The placement of "The Classified Section" is absolutly bizarre. It could just have been put together with extraplanar intelligence into a section called "The X Files", where it would have been a lot more appropriate. But what's it doing in equipment? The crunch section? It's not really badly written, though falls short of a proper conspiracy theory, but what the hell.

In general: I don't really see why none of the less unprofessional and freakish shadowtalkers get to write equipment. I really would prefer a return to Arsenal-ish formating for items, and especially, those tables. Because the way it's currently done is less than ideal. Why not have Mika and Hard Exit, two posters who really live the spy/gadgeteer lifestyle, compose this section? See "I don't like nanopaste BECAUSE IT MAKES ME LOOK FAT" for proof. And frankly, neither is Plan 9 suited to write about serious running.

This is no good use of Plan9 and /dev/, as characters, either, because it is way over both their heads. And screw in-character writing, why not just have Plan9 write the X-Files section? The current writers should really use characters who have a reason to write something for their in-book voices, not randomly selected characters or characters where they purposely have a bad voice describing very important things like equipment.

And please, tables instead of copypasting sidebars. Because that is total crap. Compose easily readable tables and put them at the end of each book. It's not rocket science, you can still use your beloved black boxes and white text, just format the stuff into an easily referable format. That's not too much to ask.

Bottom line: While there are some kinks in the book, I gotta say, this is an improvement on War and Attitude. I have a fairly positive impression of the book, though it seems a bit rough and could have used some more polishing, it is not a failed potential parade like Atitude, or ... well, let's not even mention War here. Some format decisions are completly out there though.

Overall, Spy Games lookes like a book of old, of the height of Synner's era. Some rough edges and weirdness, but nothing like the total offense War was, nor as lackluster thrown together, unguided and beyond canon as Attitude was (which was good in parts and horrifying in others). It's almost back to a Shadows of Europe level, more or less (with some serious bumps in Denver, but nothing that is an insult like stuff from the above mentioned books). Editing still could use improvement, but the margin of typos and grammar, format and other errors is back to the level of older books, which is alright I guess. Still, another glance-over would have been nice. The less errors, the better the impression.

Of note: The art in this book is top notch (one thing that has extremly improved with CGL for some time now and steadily - the only thing unaffected by the Derp that came with the Line Dev transition), and especially the shaman and the Ranger in Counterintelligence are priceless as character/NPC illustrations. Not to say the other art, with very few blunders, is not rather close behind. Keep it up.

Posted by: Nath Aug 8 2011, 10:36 PM

The old Tir government stepped down in 2064, the immortal elves in charge all left (well, as far as I know, having not read Street Legends), and fair corporate-rigged elections were held, with Hestaby probably now running the show. I guess such changes can justify Ghostwalker easing sanctions. Actually, that would even be odd if he didn't (unless his relations with Hestaby really are that bad).

Posted by: hermit Aug 9 2011, 07:04 AM

Possibly. Though in case of the Tirs, he extended it to all citizens of these nations, which is more severe than how he banned Aztlaners - where non-government/Aztech affiliated Aztlaners are okay with him, so it seemed like this was not about the government. And it has, to the best of my knowledge, never been mentioned (and the Princes are worming their way back into Taingire, according to Street Legends, with some allying with Daviar).

Posted by: CanRay Aug 9 2011, 02:43 PM

You didn't think the Princes were just going to let a the uppity Democracy-Crazed Mob take over without a fight, did you?

Posted by: Grinder Aug 9 2011, 03:09 PM

Very cool review, hermit - and it's right on how I feel about Spy Games. The quality is ok, even though there are some minor fuck-ups and inconstencies (mostly the curfew, Denver being an hotspot of global politics, and the overly stereotype-ish descriptions of the PCC, Ute, and UCAS inhabitants), and most of the design decisions I can live with. Artwork is fairly good, apart from the second rate full-page illustrations showing Ghostwalkers attack.

Posted by: Nath Aug 9 2011, 05:10 PM

They lived for one hundred centuries to do nothing but ruling Oregon. A country with a GDP on par with Finland. And there's half a dozen of them sharing power, with a great dragon watching. If you ask me, they should be kicking themselves in the head repeatedly in shame for such a miserable waste of their immortality.

At least until someone finally starts fleshing up some plot about the reason they wanted to control Crater Lake so badly.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 9 2011, 08:20 PM

Just a quickie about the Russian agencies mentioned.
First, I just love how the UGB, the counter-intelligence agency, is under Intelligence, while the GRU, the military intelligence, is under Counter-Intelligence (and the SVR is nowhere to be found).
Second, the write-ups are really sub-par, not adding anything of value to what SoA already had, yet coming with ridiculous hurr-durr anti-techno agenda mentioned. Hell, the UGB's ex-chief director is the General Secretary now! Surely that must have had some impact - but nope, nothing mentioned, only the silliness that makes you wonder how the agencies throwing away effective tools are in the business still...

Posted by: Critias Aug 9 2011, 09:27 PM

I'll admit that at times it was difficult to figure which side of the fence some agencies went. I ended up calling "dibs" on the UGB (which is responsible for both intelligence and counterintelligence work, both within Russia and outside of it) for my chapter largely because Thorn's section was a broad strokes look at the "big names." Because the GRU is too big to be left out of the book entirely, we wedged them into the CI chapter instead.


I'm sorry you don't like the write-ups, but I want to mention that the "ridiculous hurr-durr anti-techno agenda" is something that's affected every agency in some way, and we tried to mention it when and where we could (while trying not to belabor the point). Part of the anti-Technomancer backlash in the setting as a whole comes from the fact that some of the string-pullers in the setting are scared shitless of the fact that there's a chunk of not-quite-realspace out there where everything, ever, can be found.

Different agencies have reacted to that in different ways (some are continuing to embrace technology but their nations are actively persecuting technomancers, some are going back to "old school" methods, whatever), but it's not like we were out to solely pick on the Russians with this one. The existence of the Resonance realms was something pointed out to all of us would-be writers as Kind Of A Big Deal ™ in the very first project specs for Spy Games.


That was added as a direct continuation of the fight over the General Secretary spot, mentioned in SotA 2064 and Shadows of Asia. For about ten years now (Shadowrun time) there've been faction of the Russian government and Saeder Krupp jockeying for position and trying to take the GS's seat. Because the chapter was on Tradecraft (and not Russian politics) I couldn't delve into terrific detail, but it was my hope that folks would see the sudden change in major players as a bit of a surprise.

Where SoA mentioned Kamendin as a strong contender and Baichik as SK's choice (with Romanov stuck between loyalty to his old mentor and loyalty to SK for their continued support), I put Romanov right into the General Secretary's seat, and a former SK hitman squarely into leading the UGB itself. It was part compromise, part betrayal: Kamendin's not mentioned (so folks can choose to have him as alive or dead or vengeful or vanished as they want), Romanov got the seat instead of either of his rivals, but SK still has a man who might be theirs (Kalinsky may or may not be SK's creature, as opposed to a loyal Russian) heading up the UGB.

As far as "throwing away effective tools goes," Kamendin himself was specifically stated to have been the head of the UGB before stepping down to pursue political power (way back in 2053). Why couldn't Romanov have done the same, twenty years later?

I had things fall together like I did partially to continue the struggle started in those older books, and partly to monkeywrench them -- it has been about nine years (in-universe) since SotA 2064 and SoA came out; things progressed with their storylines and NPCs in mind, but not necessarily in the direction those old shadowtalkers thought they'd go.

*shrugs* All in all, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy that section of the book, but we were doing what we could with the word count we had. The chapters had a lot of agencies to cover (or create/introduce), and we did what we could to cover them all and hit on some of the major points, to give GMs some ideas, etc, etc. I appreciate the feedback, at any rate, and I hope you liked the rest of Spy Games better than you seemed to like these snippets.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 10 2011, 04:02 AM

That'd all be mighty fine if not for the fact that Sixth World Almanac states the following:


What I meant by "effective tools" are technomancers.
Let's go with a RL example: when electronic computers appeared, they rendered many of the encryption methods used before that obsolete. Yet no intelligence service had "anti-computer agenda" - on the contrary, everyone adopted the tech as soon as possible to get all the edge it could give them against the opposition. That's just the way that field of work operates - you fall behind, you lose. Why should technomancers be any different?

Posted by: Grinder Aug 10 2011, 04:18 AM

Because technomancers are scary and shit?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 04:38 AM

Sorry, I was busy counting my corporate scrip from turning in the last batch of Technomancers... You were saying?

Posted by: Critias Aug 10 2011, 04:45 AM

A lot can change in a couple of years (which is how long it's been, in-universe, since 6WA was written). Heck, look at the time held in office by guys like Bulganin and Malenkov, IRL.

Note that in Spy Games I say Romanov is "undoubtedly going to move himself into" the seat of power. Like I said, it's a chapter on tradecraft, not Russia as a setting, so the details of the shift are (purposefully, at this point) vague: Kamendin could still be alive, the details for why or how he got ousted aren't mentioned, whether he's alive or dead, or in fact even if Romanov actually pulls it off. If folks are playing high-stakes espionage games in Russia it doesn't get much cooler than a continued tangle of power around the General Secretary, the continued inclusion of Saeder Krupp as an attempted kingmaker means more traditional corp involvement for company-oriented games...It's all mentioned there as a plot hook for those that want it, and it's just some fluff (with a wetwork pro taking over the agency, potentially) to keep the UGB lethal and dangerous for those that don't.

I'm sorry that a these lines of potential plot hook and metaplot advancement aren't to your liking, and I hope you enjoyed the rest of the chapter better, but I'm really not sure what else to tell you.


Sorry for the misunderstanding, but you changed gears pretty quickly and I just misread it.

Again, it's not like it was only Russia that's been affected by this. A good chunk of the Tradecraft chapter (not just the write-ups on agencies) discusses this anti-Technomancer mindset, but it's not like Spy Games introduced it -- and, again, I'm sorry it's not to your liking, but freelancers write what freelancers are told to write. I'm sorry that their paranoia over the Resonance realms rubbed you the wrong way, but (personally) I think it was a decent way to keep the entire book from just being "Mind Probe + Control Thoughts + Technomancer = all espionage, evar!" Having some agencies stronger or weaker on specific magical or technological fronts allows a way to provide some flavor to the various areas an espionage campaign might be set in, various enemies espionage characters might face, or various backgrounds an espionage character might have; I hope you don't feel we were picking on the Russians in particular, is all I'm saying. That wasn't our intent.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 10 2011, 09:14 AM

Uh, nukes aren't scary enough for them not to be used; yet technos are?


The question for those two would be - did they hold any real power? :3
And anyway, whether I like the development with Romanov or not (and frankly, it's not like I do too much, minding that the role SK played in Poland kinda limited its influence, or at least put it on par with Evo in Russia, if System Failure is to be believed), again, ex-chief of the UGB is the General Secretary, surely that must have had some impact? I don't know, like increased funding, returning political officers back to the UGB where they have always belonged from the GRU? Just a mention that it's now better supplied than before, when the Army guys were at power?

Of course, no arguing about plot hooks. It's just that after reading the description of the agency in SoA, SG doesn't add that much. Yes, I understand that the word count is to blame, and that most readers of SG aren't too likely to have read SoA to begin with. Still, as I said in my original comment, it just doesn't add valuable info to what we know already, except for the technophobia.

Okay, I agree that mind-reading and technos are a problem for the traditional-minded spies. But, you know, nukes are a problem for traditional-minded generals, yet still somehow it's not like any major world powers went without them (despite constantly seeking the ways to reliably neutralize those of the opposite side). Saying "they're not using the most effective tools available because of their bigotry" is really pretty much calling them incompetent.

And what precisely the strong points of the agency that does the following are?
And if there aren't any, why are they still in the biz?

No doubt about that.

Posted by: Nath Aug 10 2011, 05:42 PM

The last event featured in Sixth World Almanac is on November 10, 2072. Spy Games Jackpoint login page reads May 19, 2073. Sunshine comment on page 25 was posted on May 17, 2073, and the new item page 105 is March 12, 2073 (the first Dr. Cross memo, page 154, reads November 27, 2073, but I think it's a typo since the two following ones are dated January 4 and 5 of 2073).

So it would be 6 months rather than 2 years. That's still enough time for an election I guess.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 10 2011, 06:11 PM

Oh, and before I forget, a side note with nitpicking.
Sasha is not a name, despite the claims in the book. Alexander is. Or you could as well call Nixon Dick, and the Queen Lizzy.
Also, I don't believe there's anything indicating Russia is a federation in SR anywhere in canon sources. At least SoA and 6WA call it just "Russia".

Posted by: Critias Aug 10 2011, 07:01 PM

Yes, we're knee-deep in nitpicking here, for sure. *sigh* But I'll try to address it, since you're pointing it out, and since it's either this or I actually go back to work on a term paper.

While I'm aware Sasha is more commonly just a diminutive form of Alexander (or Alexandra, for that matter), it can still be an actual name. It's not nearly as commonly listed as a formal name, but it does happen from time to time (more commonly elsewhere in Eastern Europe than in Russia itself, as I understand it, but it still happens). I chose to use it here, for this guy, as a tongue-in-cheek reference to a real-life CIA/Cold War mole, but it is a real name even if it's not one you like.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 10 2011, 07:40 PM

Heh, i know of a German tech blogger that goes by that name.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 10 2011, 10:40 PM

Uh, until a I see a Russian passport with "Sasha" in the First Name field (or at least read about someone actually named as such), sorry, I find that hard to believe. I've met my share of weirdly named people (and a bunch of people named Alexander), but having a affectionate diminutive name registered as the first name officially is just something I doubt Russian bureaucracy would allow, if anything.

Posted by: Critias Aug 10 2011, 10:58 PM

While I'm well aware of your geographic location (especially in regards to a conversation like this one, regarding naming conventions), your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. It may not be a popular name, a name you like, or terribly obvious when it's an actual name instead of an diminutive, but to continue arguing that the name does not exist just seems kind of silly, perhaps even petty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_%28name%29 Yes, some of them are named Alexander, but not all of them are. The name might not be wildly popular, and you're certainly still free to dislike that I used it, but it is a name.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 11:17 PM

It'd be like debating if "Ray" is a name until you see it on a passport. It's not common, but it is out there.

Funny part is, I use my full name, every culture claims it as it's own, and asks if I'm a "Brother/Cousin" (Another member of the culture.). It comes from the Irish part of my family (Which also has a little German in it, as if we weren't angry/stubborn/aggressive/drinking enough.).

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2011, 11:46 AM

It's not like it's right there under my avatar or anything...

And the reason for that would be how often Russian affectionate diminutive names are mistaken for full names by English-speakers (see, for example, http://www.blogthings.com/russiannamegenerator/ for a glaring example).
Making such a mistake in a Shadowrun book would, of course, only perpetuate the tradition established by Rassily Romanov, Il Moliniya, Dzhermiya Ogurznev and the like.

Oh, and who of those people are both Russian in origin and not Alexander (-re, -ra) by full name, hm?

Posted by: Grinder Aug 11 2011, 12:35 PM

Fatum, we got it, ok?

Posted by: Mäx Aug 11 2011, 12:48 PM

Sasha Pivovarova is, at least as far as i can tell.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2011, 02:15 PM

Didn't seem like it, but well, whatever. It's not like it matters after all those errors already in canon I mentioned, and it's not like this is the problem with the book, so yeah.

Nope. Answered in PM not to perpetuate the topic.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 11 2011, 02:52 PM

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2011, 03:32 PM

Fatum, I'm really not sure what else you want me to say. I've acknowledged in-thread that it's an uncommon name. I specifically commented in-text to show that it was an uncommon name (basically saying "Yeah, we know it's rare" right there in the sentence where he's named). I've acknowledged that it's more rare in Russia than elsewhere in Eastern Europe. I've explained exactly why I picked the name I did. I've provided a link that says it's an uncommon -- but possible -- name, and I said so right when I posted it. You don't like the name, and I get that, but your continued insistence that the name can not exist just baffles me.

I'm sorry previous writers have misnamed people with what seem to be genuine typos, but that's out of my hands; once someone is named, I've got to call 'em by the same name that's been in previous books.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 11 2011, 05:42 PM

And now all move to discuss maybe another part of the book, hm?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 11 2011, 05:49 PM

So, does Turbo Bunny finally shows if her rack is natural or not?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 05:53 PM

Mmmmmmm... Turbo Bunny.....

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 06:42 PM

Or grautitous wrong grammar ("Der Nachtmachen").

Sorry, Grinder, but I had to mention that. And it's not that I really am that upset about Der NAchtmachen or other mutilated German; like RaabenAAS said, there're an awful lot of people with ghastly handles on the net as is. Also, our grammar is complicated. It's very rare to find a native who really is on the up and up with the official rules. Can't really expect that from freigners then.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 01:44 AM

So unlike English in that way...

Posted by: Grinder Aug 12 2011, 07:34 PM

I have to say that Spy Games is most likely the Shadowrun sourcebook with the highest acronym count per page - mostly in the chapters about spycraft. And the glossary doesn't help all the time, as it's very short on the descriptions/ meanings of the used terms. Would have loved to see a detailed explanation in the in-game part, but unlike me all Jackpointers seem to be head-on in the spy game and the terms used.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:35 PM

Yeah, all the TLAs and worse make my head hurt. And I'm a computer tech.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 12 2011, 07:47 PM

WTF?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:49 PM

Actually, I was making an Acronym pun there as well.

The US suffers from having "Three Letter Agencies" as well as "Three Letter Acronyms".

Posted by: Grinder Aug 12 2011, 07:55 PM

Hey, that I figured out.

It's not just the US agencies in the book, but also stuff like HUMINT etc. that is only cursory described.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 08:00 PM

Just be glad you're not in Canada where the agencies have two different acronyms and aren't always listed by both. (The infamous RCMP can also be called the GRC.).

Posted by: Grinchy McScrooge Aug 12 2011, 09:48 PM

I have a hard enough time keeping track of (and deciphering) the English acronyms. The French acronyms are on their own!

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 11:42 PM

Yeah, but you're in Toronto. People there and in Alberta are safe! The rest of us?

Posted by: Grinchy McScrooge Aug 13 2011, 04:14 AM

Actually, I was born and raised in Toronto, but I now live in Kitchener-Waterloo. Now I get the opportunity to make fun of Toronto, Hamilton, Mennonites, Shakespear, and rednecks.

I'd love to see CSIS mentioned in Spy Games, even just as an inept footnote.