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Posted by: James McMurray May 21 2011, 07:43 PM

I'm pretty unfamiliar with the matrix rules (gonna read them this week) and we've got a new guy in the group who's making a a hacker. Are thre some good threads or advice on integrating the matrix with the real world portion of the game? In the past we've had what we called "the decker effect," where the decker goes into a system to do his thing and the rest of the players sit around bored until he's done.

I know 4th has changed some things around to make it easier to sync the two, but I'm drawing a blank trying to think of ways in game.

Thanks!

Posted by: Stahlseele May 21 2011, 08:32 PM

The advent of AR did ONE important thing in this problematic scenario:
They did away with the Meat Speed and Speed of Thought difference. .
Meaning a Hacker in AR hacks exactly as fast as the rest of the group acts.
In combat this makes it a bit less problematic, but at any other time?
When the Hacker(god i hate this word) does his matrix based legwork?
Or goes completely AR? Yep, still same Problem basically . .

Posted by: Fatum May 21 2011, 08:57 PM

Well, think of it like that - with the mesh networks omnipresent in the 70ies, pretty much everything from the lamps and vending machines to the guns and cars have wireless hosts, which means that they can be remotely controlled (and thus, hacked). The usual problem is not "how to integrate the hacker into the game", but "how do anything at all without asking for the hacker's help".

Frankly, that's a rather controversial point here.
First, working in VR still gives a hacker a bunch of advantages.
Second, whether the hacker works in AR or VR only really matters when he's doing it at the same time as the team doing something else, and how often does that happen? How easy is it for a GM to switch his attention back and forth?

Posted by: hermit May 21 2011, 09:16 PM

That was already an optional rule in Matrix. The same book that introduced the WiFi Matrix - you could just go online via cell at no penalty at all save for an optional and unnecessary bandwidth for data download rule.

Has anyone ever actually read that book?

Posted by: James McMurray May 21 2011, 11:22 PM

I haven't. Does it have advice on integrating the matrix and RL activities?

I can just bounce from player to player like I do when they're in different locations, but i'd much rather be able to have some scenes where those transitions aren't so jerky.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 22 2011, 12:28 AM

How is that different from when the face does leg work without the uncouth orc street sam along?

Posted by: Udoshi May 22 2011, 03:01 AM

While some GM's hate it, and refuse to think about its contents, the fact is it really does wonders to expand the rather limited 'how it works' stuff in the core book. Yes, I'm taking about Unwired.

Read roughly the first half of the book, screw the rest until you're more comfortable integrating them. Specifically, pay attention to Matrix Topology, The Idiot's Guide To The Matrix, System Security and the Security Example in particular. You can find that in the TOC, but also read the first 50 pages or so - there's little gems of rules like Data Requests(you don't need a subscription for Everything), and how Subscriptions over your limit lag your commlink's Processor Limit like running programs - basically little things that either help make it more sense, or help prevent 'the subscription system sucks, how do i get another one' junk.

I would also heavily recommend the same to your player, and, in particular, start describing the AR(its -everywhere- in 2072) of your surroundings, and occasionally hand out Situational AR Bonuses(its a core book modifier of, like, +1-2) just to encourage them to start using the matrix rules, and not being afraid to Analyze things.

I would also consider handing out Electronics Group 1 to your runners for free, just to encourage basic use of Computers. Any successful runner ought to be a bit tech-savvy, anyway.

Posted by: hermit May 22 2011, 06:14 AM

Yes, but it's third edition. Unwired, for the most part, is just a rules-updated Matrix, though, so you really should read Unwired. Udoshi's right, it really does wonders explaining how to integrate the Matrix with everything else. Yes, if the player's clever he'll figure out how to utterly defeat on-the-fly hacking with this book. But that's a rather corny idea anyway.

I disagree on the AR though, if only because making street signs AR exclusive is just plain stupid in a world where there are thunderstorms and critters who actively attack all sources of radio signals. AR is nice to have, sure, and it's certainly useful, but don't overdo it. The Anime series Ghost in the Shell SAC provides decent cues how to sensibly use AR - personal communications, tactical maps, the occasional spam.

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 06:24 AM

Not to mention that a malfunctioning Microwave Oven can wipe out a RFID tag with it's electromagnetic field.

I swear, when I supported wireless home networks, the problems that BABY MONITORS alone caused...

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 12:24 PM

Being tech-savvy does not require Electronics, because the common usages of computers do not require a test.

The problem with Unwired is that it adds a bunch of rules and possibilities to a system already flawed. I don't feel the crunch found inside is making the Matrix better (although, of course, there are some gems there).


While the street signs should not be AR-exclusive, AR is omnipresent (and, say, while you might have the physical signs in local language, navigational ARrows might show up in any one you like, etc). For example, Seattle 2072 includes a description of AR Emerald City sculpting for the whole Seattle downtown area.

Posted by: hermit May 22 2011, 01:55 PM

Yes, but at least it fixes the derpy-derp fixiation on cyberware hacks (it is an expansion on a flawed system, though, and hence still flawed, I'm not going to disagree there).

AR as an expansion is okay. Like that demo vid on youtube about this japanese GPS navigation system that projects the route from said navigator onto your spyPhone's screen. But that's an add-on, not a replacement for all signs and traffic lights.

AR as an expansion is nice, though I cannot imagine any Runner be stupid enough to have the commlink they actually use run in open mode. You run a disposable in open with your SIN, it eats all the Spam and whatnot, and you ignore that because you are not unsing any input from that link anyway, and instead rely on your custom-made all-6 link you bought from the money made on your first run.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 03:44 PM

Honestly, I'm not sure what the problem is. It *is* the same as the safecracker beating maglocks, the infiltration expert sneaking in alone, the face negotiating alone, the driver making the getaway, etc.: it requires a single-player focus for a few rolls, with the option of other things happening in the meantime. It's not crazier than the mage dealing with threats only he can see.

Hacking might require a few more rolls for really serious work (just like the locks guy or the infiltrator), but it's either simultaneous with other action, or it's 'downtime'. *shrug*

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 04:20 PM

Actually, the ruling in Unwired is a bit sad - I always wanted to hack the opposition's cyberlegs to turn the fight into a breakdance macabre. But it makes sense, sadly.

Oh, nowhere does it say that it's a replacement for vital signs. But without AR you're missing that ultra-exquisite offer on soy paste!

Frankly, for me as a sysadmin requiring the commlink to run in active mode to work with AR seems weird. ARrows are basically signals that devices project omnidirectionally: "To every system who's reading this, place a window this large with this graphics here for your user to see". I can't see why a commlink running in hidden node can't accept those signals and act on them, unless specifically told by the user not to do so.
Interacting with ARrows, sure, is a whole other piece of cake and may require establishing a connection - but again, nothing's preventing a system running in hidden mode from doing just that, if the user so wishes.
That's basically how I handle AR in the games I GM, too - and it's pretty fun to describe the environments for the runners with AR on and AR off, too.

Yeah, it's pretty much the same, but for most other kinds of jobs the rest of the party might get involved - like the sammy shooting at the chasers, or the mage and hacker helping the infiltrator or the face, etc. For hackers, the rest of the team is pretty much locked out of the action; and hacking is only fast if all goes well. If you have a couple ICs and upcoming escalating security response locked in cybercombat with your hacker, it's just hard to switch contexts to GM other action for the rest of the team.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 22 2011, 04:44 PM

However, Hacking is so easy to accomplish in SR4 that the others could have minimal skills and help out immensely in the grand scheme of the Hacker taking a system. Especially if the Hacker assists the team in upgrading their ware and programs.

Posted by: CanRay May 22 2011, 05:07 PM

Damned skript kiddies.

Posted by: hermit May 22 2011, 05:14 PM

Actually the SR4 core rules did exactly that.


Hidden mode means the 'link obnly accepts messages from sources on a trust list. And it only receives, it doesn't broadcast (no idea how you maintain a teamnet in hidden, though, which is viable by the rules, IIRC, but meh).


That is pretty much what I do, too. Just, AR does not replace hardcopy streetsigns or basic signage, nor will cities cease to be illuminated or have bright neon flashy holoadverts. It gets crazier with AR, sure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSfKlCmYcLc&feature=youtu.be, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0s1uAvzjc&feature=youtu.be) but that does not mean AR is all there is. Nor can Wireless in a world with so much chatter on all frequencies ever replace wires in, say, an automobile, nor are there wireless cel-to-cell connections across the globe without backbone cables for bandwidth and transoceanic communication.

AR is part of the world, but it should not be overstated, like early SR4 writing did. Is all.


Treat it as a teamsplit, like it has always been. All there really is possible to do, same as with astral mages.

Posted by: Ryu May 22 2011, 05:23 PM

The thread in my sig is still not updated to SR4A, but you might still find it useful.

I consider this tip a solid baseline for the actual integration part:

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 05:27 PM

Just for the sake of accuracy, Hidden Mode is not 'wireless off' or 'receive-only'. It is 'invisible to anything not whitelisted'. This is why Detect Hidden Mode is possible (and, AFAIK, hacking). Also AFAIK, the rules really don't ever make a receive-only/send-only distinction (though some cases might be common sense).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 22 2011, 05:40 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 06:28 PM

Oh right. Minding that the chance for the node to detect the intruders depends entirely on Hacking, Exploit and Stealth ratings of the intruder, please tell me how you're getting those to decent hacker-level values for non-hacker characters.

I did not get that impression from the books. Could you please point out a specific quote?

As a matter of fact, this is one of the problems I face each time I design a security system. Using wired connections to prevent easy wireless hijacking just seems too obvious for the corp techies not to go that way.
But yeah, the books explicitly say there are still backbone lines, maintained by MCPs. And of course, evil, evil people are eavesdropping there!

Astral mages are just more rarely needed, while hacking is "let's play this tiny subquest for each action your party members are hoping to take".


Actually, we don't know much about the network protocols used. So no real solid reason for AR not to work on non-active nodes, unless you really don't want it to do so.

Posted by: hermit May 22 2011, 06:28 PM

Sounds pretty 'force it down their throat' to me.

Besides, what if someone hacks your precious AR and highlights informants for local security as your hot talk-to contact? Which is totally possible because SR4's hacking rules are basically instant attacker win, if you don't periodically reset your com and have a 24h hard encryption. I'd totally do that, just to remind them to not trust AR too much, and because the system makes it so easy it should be standard procedure.

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 06:34 PM

Lol what. If you're hacked on the fly, it's Hacking+Exploit vs Analyze+Firewall extended tests, with thresholds comparable. Your software has every chance to succeed against most common hackers.
Sure, probing is a tad bit more troublesome, but still it's not like there is no way to secure your PAN against it, between IC, trapdoors, honeypots, slaving, hard encryption and etcetera. Basically, it's easy to make it a ridiculously slow affair, enough to make it a tool too cumbersome to be actually used against you.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 22 2011, 06:37 PM

Simple... Your Hacker helps in upgrading everyone to rating 4-5 'Links and Programs... I did it in game for the non-hackers in my game. Why is that so difficult a proposition? If your hacker is so good that he never sets off alarms, then this wll, of course, never be needed. If the Hacker sets off alarms, then having the backup of non-hackers to aid in distraction is very useful indeed.

Besides, You can have the hacker, once in with the right permissions, create legitimate accounts for the non-hackers to use, so that there is no need for high level equipment/programs. Pretty simple really. Again, why is that so difficult?

Posted by: Ryu May 22 2011, 06:51 PM

Show the value, let them decide. I agree that the benefits outweight the risks to the point of a "forced" decision.

Matrix supervision is a task for the groups hacker. The GM will see fit to provide challenges.

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 07:15 PM

Because it costs a bunch, and there always seem to be better things to spend cash on?

How is it useful if the non-hackers can do absolutely nothing in cybercombat, and it's taking the opposition around 1 IP to take each one out (or, with Area-Attack, one for all of them)?
Or, actually, they can not even bother, since the non-hackers will have hilariously little IP counts and attack pools.

Creating legitimate accounts is taking time, which for hackers is extremely precious.
Now, how is a legitimate account raising your chances in cybercombat, again, if you have shitty hard, soft and skills?

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 22 2011, 07:51 PM

… They'll have either their meat IPs (probably 2-3), or they'll have VR (3 off the bat). You're far too dismissive. No one's saying they'd be expert, but that's not required.

Posted by: Fatum May 22 2011, 08:19 PM

Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but the point still stands.

Posted by: hermit May 22 2011, 10:12 PM

Unwired does. SR4 Core Rules did say differently. But yes, I see your problem. I have it too.


Unlike the wireless Matrix?


That very much depends on your players really.


SR4 core book, game concepts and changes section and IIRC, Matrix. Don't have by ebooks on me and the computer my PDF are on died today, so sorry, pages will have to wait. NOT SR4A, nor Unwired. It was fixed with Unwired, as I wrote.


The programs do not get several kinds of boni a hacker gets. The hacker gets VR and Hot Sim boni on anything if he's any good, so that's +4 dice, or one more statistical success, in a contest with equal program ratings, with no further optimisation. You can further push this up with qualities, commlink modding and by teamworking with agents. All you can do on the defense side is put agents in your commlink, and those things both cost and slow down anything else you do. Unless you abuse the hell out of software options, you're always on the weaker end as a defender in SR4.


Yeah, I mentioned hard encryption. Slaving can be spoofed though, which is another of these unfair contests.


It's so easy to kill your characters, then, that it's hard to reason why corpsec never does it.


Because there is no such thing as triangulation and rifles?Not to mention, of cours,e everyone trusts their real, business commlink to a stranger, crook and murderer.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 22 2011, 10:17 PM

Swap out Rifles for a Troll ballista.

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 06:31 AM

Well, you can hack a missile, since it's not an immediate hit (unless you wifi disable the missile of course). You cannot hack an old rifle without fancy wifi stuff.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 23 2011, 09:22 AM

Troll Ballista. Troll with a huge Bow and indirect Fire Capability over Houses and the such ^^

Posted by: PoliteMan May 23 2011, 10:52 AM

Meh. Technically, every node should be swarming with Agents analyzing any incoming Icon and they should have several defensive nodes wired or slaved together. In my experience, it's just too much darn work for most GMs and even if they design it, it means the Hacker and GM have to run an hour-long mini game.

While it's certainly possible to bring your teammates on a hack, after all you can do a group hack and all get in together even if your teammates contribute no dice, but I've never run into a situation where I wanted unskilled teammates with me instead of agents.

My general advice would be to skip a lot of the hacking rules for unimportant systems. If the hack wants to hack an R3 system and he's rolling 16 dice, don't even bother, just tell him he succeeds. Save the rules for the big hacks and don't worry about the rest.

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 12:03 PM

An average level 3 node can't handle anything more than 3 agents with analyse and an analyse program. it will shut down if 10 programs are running simultaneously. So no, nothing should be swarming. Because processor limits work that way.


Welcome to the real world.


Works, sure. Just like it did in SR3. Didn't SR4 want to change something about this? I faintly remember ...

Posted by: Stahlseele May 23 2011, 12:25 PM

SR4 also wanted to reduce the ammount of dice rolled . .

Posted by: PoliteMan May 23 2011, 12:41 PM

Wait, when's the last time you hacked an R3 node on a run. Does anyone, even script kiddies, even bother to roll for R3? Any Corp should be packing at least one Nexus, and if it's a choke point 10 agents analyze is very doable. Plus, while an R3 node can only run 3 agents, you can host agents on other nodes and send their agents/IC over to the choke point to help scan/kill intruders.

As for integration, yeah, SR4 has a lot of the same core issues as SR3. I recommend you use the same workarounds: keep the hacking time to a minimum and don't bother rolling for any but the most important hacks. I don't think hacking is uniquely problematic, any system that has characters specialize in different fields like SR is gonna have times when only one character can do anything. Everyone has these "special" moments, hackers are just the worst of the lot.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 01:13 PM

Except... Have you actually tried it?

We have, and it works quite well (Not all the time, of course, but enough that its use is evident)... You can get a LOT of mileage from Worms and Agents and not have to actually have a lot of skill like you are implying. Secondary Hackers are a treasure trove for the Hacker as they tie up the system with the Obvious BS, while the Hacker moves through the system like a ghost.

Try it sometiome, you might be surprised.

And a note from your previous post. Once you have a competent hacker, he can crack the software he is using (if he has not done so already) and pass out free copies. He can BUILD the comlinks to rating 5 cheaply, and distribute them (or steal them from some source, or whatever) so that the hardware requirements are met. He can Build a Nexus that lets them ALL use a Top of the Line hacking portal for relatively cheap as well... There are a lot of solutions for the expense of allowing everyone to be a secondary hacker, if you are willing to pursue them.

The only skill you really need is Hacking... Cybercombat is Nice, but there are alternatives. The character I played did not have Cybercombat for well over 100 Karma, because that was not his focus. It was easy to get around with Worms and Agents (While I ran). There are always alternatives...

Posted by: Cheops May 23 2011, 02:02 PM

I memorized it cover to cover for the first character, first game I ever played. Turns out no one else in that group, GM included had, so I ended up just making Computer success tests for everything and the GM magical tea partying it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: SR3 matrix is superior in all ways compared to SR4 matrix. Not that it was perfect but it's better than the steaming pile SR has currently.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 02:20 PM

Wow... Can't say that I agree, but whatever works, right?

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 04:14 PM

Right! Thanks for reminding.


Most statted grunts and mid-tied NPCs in Missions have R3 to R5 links. So yes, if you go by official stuff and ignore the steaming pile of shit that is War, R3 is very relevant. Because originally the SR4 Matrix was meant for R1 to R6 in everything.


You can also abuse the Ergonomic software option (all utility proggies are Ergonomic, all agents are not), design yourself software suits of "everything an angent ever needs and Home Ground" and optimise Agents and Programs for 6, allowing your R3 node to run 9 all-6 IC with no penalties to them, who have acces to every program under the sun. You could cluster seveal R3 nodes and have a bazillion agents roam there. I was talking of a vanilla node and vanilla programs. The SR4 Matrix offers dazzling abuse and optimisation opportunities, but that comes with an enormous amount of Red Tape. And all that requires either massive systems of SR1/2 proportions, all statted out (which was what SR4 wanted to reduce, not increase, over SR3), all with several tallies to keep track of, and the options/clustering/ect abuse requires Unwired.

In other words, if you invest several hours, you have a decent R3 node that probably can defend itself against a chargen-level hacker with some notable margin of success. That's ... not really a working system.


Yeah. Disappointing, is in't it?


I fully agree.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 23 2011, 05:48 PM

1. AR is ubiquitous and omnipresent. Everyone has access to AR and can interact with it. In fact it's the primary interface the majority of the time.

2. Everyone can use AR to do Matrix tasks. Hackers are better, and TM are nigh unto Matrix gods.

The best mapping for SR1/2/3 experienced GM/Players is to think of AR as Astral Perception, and VR as Astral projecting. and Hackers as adepts and TM as Mages, but everyone is awakened. How did you integrate those elements into your game?

GM Tips: AR makes things richer, describe the AR first. Everyone should be using it. Describe the scene accordingly. Shadowrunners walk into the bar, they don't just a room full of people. They get targeted drink specials based on their order history, they see everyone labeled in the room based on the compatibility of common interests, hot spots indicated to them based on past interactions, open requests for discussions based on past interactions. etc etc.

Overlay everything with AROs, describe the interactions based on interacting with ARO. When they realize the Hacker/TM can hack it, modify it, enhance it, protect it, then they will add that element to the game all on their own.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 06:41 PM

Right, except for the majority without the means to display it or interact with it, huh?

Posted by: sabs May 23 2011, 07:25 PM

Where do you get that from.
The majority of people have imagelink glasses or contacts, and commlinks.

Posted by: Udoshi May 23 2011, 07:52 PM

Its easy to SAY that, but when you actually look at the rules, even googling Data Searching needs one hit or two.

And since you can't default to skill on the matrix.....

well, even 'simple' operations are going to need a rating 5 program (you default on program -1) to buy a hit. (if you don't have the skill, i'd be dubious about allowing hits to be bought anyway).

Or even changing your access ID, which is something every runner should know how to do. Thats a 2 threshold spoof test.

So yeah. Handing a freebie skill at one actually makes a lot of sense if you know what you need it for.

Posted by: Udoshi May 23 2011, 07:53 PM

This, basically.

Open the door to the players, let them decide if they want to put points and effort into it.

Posted by: James McMurray May 23 2011, 07:57 PM

Yeah, I'm not seeing this "majority" thing. A bare minimum commlink and image link is 125 If you're living on the streets and can't save up you could instead pay 75 for the one you bought "lightly used" off the back of Guido's Mobile Electronics Shop and Armory.

Posted by: Ryu May 23 2011, 08:02 PM

Your "Should have" seems based on an optimal gamist defense strategy. I prefer a consensus between GM and players regarding the level of the game. The SR4 matrix can still be very numbers-heavy, and an arms race will very likely end up with the dreaded hacker subgame. The level suggested by the sample device ratings table works without complex matrix strategies.

Posted by: sabs May 23 2011, 08:08 PM

Except that all those Agents take up resources. Kinda.

Even a Nexus has limitations on what can run on it. The problem comes from the fact that there's no limit to how many agents/users can be connected to a Nexus at all.

And being connected to a Nexus does not degrade the response at all. It's very counter intuitive, and results i weird setups.

Posted by: deek May 23 2011, 08:11 PM

Unless the GM is matrix savvy, then its going to be a time sink whenever the hacker wants to do anything.

But, if the GM is matrix savvy, he can lead the player quickly (or better yet, both GM and player is savvy and they can both move through the rolls and results quickly). You don't have to ignore any rules, leave the rules to important tasks or create a hybrid lite version. But, you need to have that knowledge and move through it quickly.

I mean, after a couple combats, everyone at the table understand how combat, melee or ranged, works and its no longer an issue. You don't have to look stuff up and everyone knows what they need to roll and communicate to the GM. Until you get the matrix rules running that fast, well, then you are going to eat up a lot of time working just with the hacker.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 08:14 PM

Yeah, data searching without the skill is bringing you a lot of false positives and other glitches.
Kinda the same as in real life, don't you think?

Changing your access ID may be as habitual as smoking for hackers. For common users, it's a serious undertaking - kinda like uploading new firmware for your motherboard today.

Commlink: 100 min, 300 if you want it to be actually usable.
OS: 200 min.
AR gloves: 250 .
Glasses with Image Link: 50 min.
So, the absolute minimum for a commlink that's bringing you the joys of AR is 800 . Compare that to low-end lifestyle costs in Runner's Companion.

Now, SoNA puts SINner population below poverty level at 26% (in 2061, though), and around 30% are SINless, which are not accounted for in the poverty level statistic at all. That puts us at around 56% of UCAS population not being able to procure AR capability, because it costs significantly more than what they can afford to spend on their basic necessities in a month - and that's one of the most developed countries in the world.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 23 2011, 08:42 PM

It's a one-time purchase, of course. Most people couldn't buy a TV and Xbox every month… doesn't mean they don't have it, even 'poor'.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 08:46 PM

Yeah, but AR isn't for the dregs of society anyways... It is for the tax paying citizens.
And it is really only 26%, The SINless don't count...

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 09:01 PM

How often do you make purchases which cost you around twice your monthly income?
Besides, SR citizens have a bunch of better things to spend cash on - like, you know, guns or bodyarmor.

Oh, right, so when calculating "the majority", you don't count the low social circles? That's a very... capitalist approach.
26% below poverty level among the SINners. Also, 30% SINless - who are, most likely, below poverty, too. Around 56%, all in all.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 23 2011, 09:16 PM

Since they mention AR programs under the Squatter Entertainment Lifestyle Category, apparently squatters can and do use AR. You don't need AR gloves or glasses since commlinks come with a touch screen and holo projector. For AR, you likely have some sort of google goggleseque wave your commlink in front of the objects to see AR default program. That reduces the cost to 300Y. That's still not trivially cheap, but at least it's less than a month of living squatter. It's at least possible after a good month or two a squatter can afford a stolen commlink or something.

I'm not sure if you need a SIN to use a commlink or if you can just roll SINless or just have a string of numbers be your rating 0 Fake SIN. Some of the sample characters have commlinks no fake or real SIN. However I'll loathe to use the sample characters as an example of anything and any more information would be useful.

Posted by: James McMurray May 23 2011, 09:28 PM

It's SR. Were you expecting a hippy love fest? If you don't spend you don't count.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 10:36 PM

Ditto...

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 12:33 AM

Fatum, I thought I made that clear: once. And, as someone mentioned, you only need the one commlink (100¥), certainly not that whole list of crap. Does *anybody* use gloves? Trodes are hella cheap, as well.

Posted by: Dez384 May 24 2011, 02:13 AM

Gloves are nice for touchy characters.

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 02:54 AM

I prefer Hardliner or Stun Gloves. Keeps the fingerprints off things, and have combat uses.

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 07:37 AM

Yeah, you're right, you don't actually need all those (it's just that Sabs mentioned it), although working with the device's screen covering but a small part of your field of vision instead of glasses with a full field of vision coverage may be crippling.

I don't believe you need a valid SIN to use Matrix (it's mesh and all, after all), or even to procure black MSP services.


Actually, I was expecting cyberpunk. Not


I never said anything about buying the same thing repeatedly. There's a bunch of relatively expensive things for a squatter to spend money on, as I said above, starting right with at least a light pistol, a license for it, and some armoured clothing for living in the Barrens. I imagine a commlink would be low on their priority list.
The 100¥ commlink is only showing you AROs in your immediate vicinity; and trodes are for simsense (and thus require a simsense module), not AR control.

Posted by: Vuron May 24 2011, 01:12 PM

I assume that Renraku or NeoNet have subsidized purchase of commlinks just like modern cellphone companies do. 100 nuyen for commlink might be pricey but if it's factored into a 2 year contract for 10 nuyen a month of something like that it's much more reasonable.

Sinless of course don't have credit so would have to go with a cheap pre-paid commlink or a boosted knock off. A couple of -20% modifiers and that Metalink commlink becomes much cheaper and more affordable. Sure it's buggy and sometimes glitches out but if you a squatter you get what you can.

Just because a shadowrunner wouldn't be caught dead with the equivalent of a piece of junk trackphone burner doesn't mean that there isn't a booming market for them down in the gutters.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 01:19 PM

Trodes are AR. Simsense is AR.

Posted by: sabs May 24 2011, 01:23 PM

And, Image Link Contacts, and Commlinks, I wasn't counting Squatters and SiNLess . It's not like they buy stuff at the stores downtown.

A Commlink and contact lenses are cheap for the average low and medium lifestyles. And they're necessary. You can't even pay your rent without one.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 01:50 PM

Exactly. It's like saying today, 'no, poor people wouldn't have cell phones'.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 24 2011, 01:59 PM

You have two things to consider to take the burden off of the poor masses, who while individually have little nuyen, but all together have a mass of nuyen. (And what corp doesn't want a mass of nuyen?)

1. Subsidized AR interface gear. 125 nuyen over a lifetime of revolving debt payments is worth giving away a commlink and image link.

2. Projected Holographic and trid projections on every street corner, store front and available surface is cheap for the corp to market things to bring in the SINless masses nuyen. Best of all, they can't turn it off.

There are all kinds of social effects and tropes to explore. A "green" community where there are no projectors, so if you turn your Matrix connection off, and are out of AR, it looks like you are in a wooded glade, but as soon as you add AR, then signs are revealed leading you to doors, windows, homes, vendors, and all sorts of assorted goodies. On the flip side, the "barrens" might be full of projected trid artifacts that conceal the squalid conditions in splendiforous glamour based on the upcoming summer blockbuster Die Hard 22:Malaysian Meltdown!

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 02:02 PM

Good point: give away the commlinks so that you can target ads at them.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 24 2011, 02:12 PM

I'm not sure about that. The biggest thing a commlink would do is let you beg/panhandle. Otherwise, how does the odd wageslave give you a spare nuyen? Physical cash isn't used much anymore. I guess they could throw a certified credstick at you, but those are 25Y. I do think squatters plant a "Will Work for Food" or "Please give" ARO over their heads. Or just run their commlink in active mode when they try to wash your car. You could make the argument that wageslaves will never be close enough to the homeless for them to see such a sign much less give money, but that seems a tad much. If you can make 10Y a day doing this (the price of a low-end meal) that you couldn't have, you can pay back your commlink in about a month.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 24 2011, 02:18 PM

Dare I also ask why you need a license for your pistol if you don't even have a SIN or a commlink, either?

Posted by: sabs May 24 2011, 02:23 PM

You can't get a license without a commlink, so.. what's the point.

Posted by: hermit May 24 2011, 02:25 PM

When Horizon forces their employees todo good deeds, that's usually what they do. There's also the state/corp government giveaway VolksKOMM links from the Berlin book (which you do not have, of course).

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 02:52 PM

*pets his limited edition Berlin book*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 03:20 PM

But why would a SINless, living in the barrens care about a license?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 03:21 PM

If only it came in English... *sigh*

Posted by: sabs May 24 2011, 03:27 PM

I'm not the one who said he'd buy a license for his gun

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 03:45 PM

Learn to german *snickers* ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 03:49 PM

Yeah, Well... The Only German I know could be written on a Single page of Paper. And I still would likely pronounce most of it incorrectly.

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 04:02 PM

My personal interpretation/houserule is that the prices given in the books are what Shadowrunners pay, i.e. the price may include a certain makeup for your shadowy dealings. On the upside, the buyer is registered as Ivan Ivanovich from Farawayestan, and you miss "features" like the equivalent of SIM locks.

So of course Joe Wageslave can get his commlink (+ sim module and trodes) for cheap. But just like a cellphone, it will be bound to a contract and all purchase data ends in dozens of databases.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 24 2011, 04:08 PM

Commlinks are listed as a purchase item in the books because it is something that we expect Shadowrunners to purchase outside of "lifestyle". For Joe Wageslave, a commlink comes as part of lifestyle. It's not 125 nuyen, Joe Wageslave just has one.

Don't apply the price list and items given for Shadowrunners and apply it to the world at large as if everyone is just a wannabe shadowrunner who just happens to live a different life. The price list isn't a model for the world, it's the view of the world of shadowrunners.

Posted by: Ryu May 24 2011, 07:43 PM

Given the number of megacorps in SR, one would assume that special rates and packages of affiliated matrix service providers would enable the customer base to participate in all the online shopping. Providing the "free" Search program you do most of your online shopping with is well worth providing a commlink to anyone with a minimal credit rating.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 25 2011, 11:49 AM

The way i read data searches in SR is that using the browse program with the data search skill borders on running your own web crawler. Most others will be dialing up their MSP or similar and use their browse equipped agent. This while the MSP is looking at the search terms and adding those to the targeted ad profile for the goods and services suggestions the user will be presented with soon.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 25 2011, 01:15 PM

You mean like in the real world?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 25 2011, 01:25 PM

Pretty much.

Posted by: Epicedion May 25 2011, 01:32 PM

Shadowrun doesn't work well if you allow real-world high quality free information services. Like Google. Shadowrun is a more paranoid world, where satellite maps and things are guarded on corporate servers, and only really accessible to powerful data searches. The average Joe Wageslave uses his Browse to look up soy recipies and movie times. Info that's literally freely available, and should be an automatic success.

Anything you actually have to roll for should be in some way masked or hidden. Sensitive corp info that's been leaked, the latest aerial shots of the new Ares project site, the contact info for a high-dollar smuggler, etc.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 25 2011, 01:59 PM

I agree.. SR took a different turn somewhere in the nineties. Internet didn't make important information more accessible to the general public, and computer systems weren't made "for the people". Older editions focus much more on mainframes and large matrix/grid infrastructures; a very different development from the real world (and yet intensely "retro chic"!)

With that in mind, you could actually have a campaign about that: how Matrix 2.0 is more open, lets common people get to information that Matrix 1.0 kept hidden from them - and not all the corporations are prepared for that. Sure, in the past, shadowrunners had clues about what was really going on, because they used the shadow matrix. But ordinary people didn't have access to it, and now they do. Maybe now Aztechnology will have a much harder time keeping its secrets hidden? Maybe Horizon is so effective because they're the only corporation who really understands how liberating the new Matrix is?

Gosh, that could actually be an optimistic campaign!

*itch* Suddenly I want to start writing up that campaign...

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 02:44 PM

Thing is, you suddenly have the opposite problem that occurs from freedom of information: Information Overload.

Yeah, the Governments and Megas are opening up their datafiles a little bit, but remember that those items were,
One: Corrupted by Crash 2.0, and incomplete.
Two: Written from a bias of the originator in the first place.

Johnny Q. Wageslave, Junior learns about The Chicago Containment Zone Event (A public event) in school, and does a research project about it. He takes the school-provided Commlink (With NEW IMPROVED FIREWALL TO PROTECT TECHNOMANCER BRAIN MELT! MCT Security Suite, for all your matrix security needs! "We think about the Children."), and finds out that there are many different takes to the events that lead up to, and happened during, Bug City. And with the public records and news reports incomplete and missing referring documentation in the items that did survive Crash 2.0, only can go off of what was heavily censored out of the secure databanks, and gets a very skewed version of what happened. He does his best with his news report, citing his sources, but gives a report that sounds like it came from someone with various psychological disorders, not the least of which Dissociative Identity Disorder (Previously called "Multiple Personality Disorder").

He doesn't even get to the Denver Data Haven posts which are intact to get the story from people who were in Bug City and reported things at the time at all. All he gets is what is released after the censor has redacted "dangerous information" with his/her digital marker.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 02:50 PM

Unless, of course, he is /dev/grrl, who regularily researches her school papers in heavily ice-protected data havens apparently ("I wrote this paper on Deus and only got an A- D: D: D: D: D: D: D:").

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 03:16 PM

I seriously doubt that /dev/grrl is named "Johnny".

Posted by: James McMurray May 25 2011, 03:18 PM

Which would make it the perfect alias.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 03:59 PM

Now her(?) discussion about skateboarding in a sundress disturbs me even more.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 04:29 PM

Actually, a more open matrix would certainly mean lowering the quality of shadowboard posts. Compare what the books have to the comments of today. I imagine any actually relevant data would only be found in more or less closed runner-only boards or VPNs...

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 06:35 PM

ShadowSEA (The descendant of Shadowland) might have gone just this way... IIRC, that's why Bull made the Dumpshock Data Haven, right Bull?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 26 2011, 12:38 PM

SR from 1 to 3 was stuck in a futuristic version of the BBSs of the US 80s (they became partially popular because US local calls where free, iirc).

Hell, SR deckers are part phreakers as they hack into LTG and RTG systems to get a route from them to their target.

This similar to how real life phreakers would set up world wide conference calls by finding the unlisted number to the local telco switch (security thru obscurity ftw), or play the right kinds of control tones into the phone.

SR4 brings SR tech in line with real life. And i think SR4 corps hide their dirty underwear in the fog of data overload rather then by running unlisted mainframes. That is, spread so many rumors that by the end of the day the casual observer do not know whats what. We can see this IRL as the Chinese politburo have a section that specialize in posting disinformation on various forums. And at least one admin of a big name blog have mentioned tracing several usernames to a marketing firm in the past. User names that only gets activity when specific topics show up on the blog.

I suspect this is the kind of marketing/disinformation blitz that Horizon specializes in. Being able to seed so many counterclaims that unless you dedicate time to map the web of references and such you will never be aware that there is a single source for what looks like a majority argument.