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Posted by: Grinder May 23 2011, 06:50 AM

http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/

I'm not really excited. Who needs game stats for Lofwyr or Harlequin?

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 06:56 AM

Especially considering how these stats will rub someone the wrong way. Because with statted NPCs that'S always the case. I can see why Serrin or Talon can be statted (though do your research when you do this!), but overall ... I dunno. I'm more interested in whatever happened to 99 bottles.

Posted by: Mäx May 23 2011, 08:21 AM

I don't know, but doesn't really matter if the fluffy bits are crunchy, you can always just ignore the stats.

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 09:18 AM

(and that's not an argument against atheism)


Well, I though I was on my way to reconciling with CGL...the new books are not exactly great, but they show promise and care instead of carelessly throwing some textual hackjobs at us. Then I read the new product announcements in Spy Games and headed to http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/ to find some more info...if only I didn't

I think I will just let this speak for itself, because I hate to sound like Frank with his caps lock stuck...

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 09:33 AM

Eh, I'm getting old...

Posted by: Grinder May 23 2011, 09:36 AM

Seems so.

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 09:39 AM

Great, so I can sit on the porch and gripe at the depraved state of today's youth. Where's my rocking chair?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 23 2011, 10:01 AM

Well I'm pretty optimistic. But then again i love any book with info on characters in the world. This love goes double if it's got shadowtalk on the characters and pictures so i can plunk it down in front of my players who haven't been playing the game forever and say "This is what you could reasonably look up on this character." Any setting immersion is good by me. If you don't like the stats in the book, change them. That's not a reason to be afraid of statting characters.

Further in regards to Harly and Golden Snout: One of the things I really really really hated about the H modules back in the day is the he doesn't have stats, he just beats you mentality, because what drew me to shadowrun is everyone can bite it.

Posted by: TheOOB May 23 2011, 10:14 AM

Ehh, the info in the book sounds interesting, but I hope it's cheap. With no options for player characters, no pre-made adventures, and what sounds to be disjointed setting info(a little bit about a lot of things, so not enough to really help you build a campaign), there doesn't seem like there will be much in enhance the SR experience, just provide an interesting read.

EDIT: Woot 1,000 posts.

Posted by: Grinder May 23 2011, 10:27 AM

Well, it seems to be that's the way CGL wants to go...

No metaplot, just random NPCs, locations and half-assed adventure seeds.

Posted by: Kesendeja May 23 2011, 10:36 AM

Way back when this book was called Prime Runners, and i admit to getting alot of use out of it. So personally I'm looking forward to the new book. I especially hope to catch up on some dearly loved NPC's.

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 10:55 AM

If something has stats, it's confined to those stats. Any further activity of these characters will be limited by those stats...unless they are so vague that you might as well have none

And of course, if it has stats players will kill it

Posted by: Tiralee May 23 2011, 11:32 AM

If it's got stats, you can kill it.



Although I've always had a soft spot for old Martin DeVris, Vampiric Vampire hunter, if only because I sold him a weapon focus once. I want to see that Aztechnology Mage's face when he tries to reclaim that F10 Obsidian sacrificial dagger from Martin....

-Tir

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 23 2011, 11:47 AM

I will never understand why people think this is a negative thing.

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 11:56 AM

Wasn'T Conspiracy Theories supposed to destroy revisit the London setting? Seems more like this is more of the Deep Shadows books. Not my favourites, but so far, Spy Gamesis not War!. It's as you said, it's showing some promise.

I wonder why they focus so heavily on canned NPCs though. It's not like that'S what makes a setting usable. Setting info does (suprise). NPCs need to be statted for every group'S playing style. In canned adventures, adapting NPCs to my group's power level is the most time intensive part in preparation for me.

YMMV, but since I hardly ever use official NPC stats anyway, I don't care much for the numbers. I'm interested in what they made of these NPCs stores - okay, some of them, not all. I could care less about most Jackpointers.

If I were to stat Harlekin, btw, I'd build him via standard rules, and give him 1 Karma for ach year of his life (that's around 10.000 Karma). Same with Lofwyr (using the Dragon PC rules, and a custom dragon race called great form that adds half the base stat value again). I'm positive the attributes actually assigend to them will be ludicrously low. So I will ignore them anyway.

Overall, that book seems a tad superfluous. I'd prefer just a story book, but meh, I can deal with ignoring stats.

Posted by: Magus May 23 2011, 11:56 AM

Because most if not all of the street legends should only be PLOT Devices and the stats left open to the GM. I DO NOT want Lofwyrs stat or Harley's they cause ripples in the Meta Plot that change the world. I do not want to be contrained to a static number. If I want Harley to be a triple digit Initiate then I will do so because the module says I can make up his stats to do what I need him to do.

This book looked good until they stated everyone will be statted. I would love the Fluff involved but seriously Jason Hardy and CGL, for the love of Ghost Why?

Posted by: suoq May 23 2011, 12:13 PM

"Harley uses his 'Expert Edge' ability."
"What does that do?"
"It allows him to use edge multiple times for the same action"
"That's not in the book!"
"You got the Player's edition. It's in the GM's edition. Right here. In blue ink."

Posted by: Magus May 23 2011, 12:16 PM

LOL Awesome suoq!

Posted by: Prime Mover May 23 2011, 02:31 PM

If it's got stats, you can kill it.

Prime Runners was a mixed bag of runners when it came out including some Prime runners and some not so prime runners. But I got plenty of use and story seeds out of it. As for stating some power players I think it's well past time. If I'm not happy with them as a GM I can adjust them...and having something rather then nothing to go on is a benefit. I'm really really curious to see the take on some of these npc's.

Let's look at the stating of unkillable's another way. Just because Richard Villers is never stated doesn't mean he's immortal or all powerful. I imagine his physical stats are underwhelming. Granted his security is probably tighter then a national leaders. My players will probably never get a chance to take a shot at him but that doesnt mean they couldn't if they really wanted too. And other then messing with my fanboy canon sensibilities it's just a game and my game after all. I'd let them try.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 02:39 PM

Indeed... At least let them have the chance, even if it is doomed to failure. Who knows, they might get lucky...

I am happy to see this book coming out, personally.

Posted by: Vuron May 23 2011, 02:46 PM

I looked back at Prime Runners not that long ago and it was underwhelming. Many of the the NPCs that received full stat blocks weren't that useful and many of the the ones that were useful were either hideously overpowered or underpowered.

A book of Prime Runners is useful for GMs that don't have the time to build a new Prime Runner every time they need one but often these types of projects turn into an excuse for massive fanwank.

From a sales perspective it's probably fine to include stats for the IEs and GDs because some people will buy those products just to have them but from a utility perspective there doesn't seem to be a consensus to how powerful NPCs should be vis-a-vis the PCs. Some people will view a Initiate 10+ Mage as target practice and others will be turned into sidekicks by the DMPC.

Personally I'd limit the NPCs with actual statblocks to the Superior class NPCs (Frosty, Man of Many Names) and leave anyone truly superhuman (FastJack, IEs, GDs) without stats.

Posted by: Magus May 23 2011, 02:51 PM

Did Dragons of the Sixth World for 3ed have all thier stats? I cannot remember as I never picked that one up. I would an e-book similiar to Legends, but I do not want to stat up FastJack. I do not want to hear at my table
"I am better than Jack, so I am gonna hack his site and Spoof his Persona"

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 03:13 PM

Of course not. So far, Great Dragons and other power players have always been the mysterious power players behind the scenes, and not some puny NPCs to throw at your players - so they didn't even need stats, players would never take a shot at Big L anyway.

IMO this book idea can be summed up in three words: Desperate attention whoring. Now all we need is a "Shadowrun prequels" series which reveals stuff like the Nightwraith Incident - because prequels have worked well in just about every SciFi universe, right?

Posted by: hobgoblin May 23 2011, 03:16 PM

And that is when ol' Jack calls in his web of contacts and basically drop bear the PC into oblivion...

That is one thing that is seriously overlooked in SR, and other games of similar settings, your strength is as much who you know as what you can do...

Take the latter books of Dark Heresy for instance, when the power of the character shifts from being about gears and skill to being about the authority that comes with ones position...

Hell. Back in SR3, Slamm-O was considered dangerous not (just) because of skill. He also had the ability to go from prankster to biz in zero flat.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 23 2011, 03:17 PM

Well, we've got stats for Great Dragons, and several have been published before (Mostly the younger ones, mind you, but still)

So, getting an actual statblock for Lofwyr? No big.

I didn't see a mention of any Immortal Elves, but, Conspiracy looks like a place that they'd pop up in. Be kinda nice to see them put on paper, just because I have a bad taste in my mouth to this day of the Harley-Erhan "This is too cool for you to participate in, but you can watch us" Eliminster-ish swordfight from way back. And finding out if Harley is a 10th, 12th, 50th, or 100th rank intiate will at least end the endless loops of talk around here.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua May 23 2011, 03:22 PM

Honestly when you have legendary NPCs for a published product, you have 2 options. Give them stats or not. If you give them stats, then they'll be underpowered or you jack it up to over 9000 and nothing can stop them (I've heard this has happened in Exalted). If you don't, then everything is all magical tea party and they often become supermen to slap the PCs around (see most of White Wolf). There's no good way to balance them over so many parties and play styles.

Overall, the book would seem like something I'll check out if I got it free. It'll be interesting to see if I can make a starting character that can outhack Fastjack.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 23 2011, 03:23 PM

As for the lack of metaplot, i think it was dialed back because people felt their characters where just along for the ride.

This was also why they tried to bring the game back down to street level when SR4 was fresh, tho later books like War have likely shifted that back up.

Posted by: MJBurrage May 23 2011, 03:25 PM

In a world where a small group of immortals have been playing power games with each other for millennia, is is absurd to think that any mortal could really play them properly. So while I have no problem with giving them physical stats, their collection of knowledge, tactics, and magical power is by definition in a class wholly above the players.

Any game where players can kill a great dragon or an old immortal elf, is NOT Shadowrun. If the players can outplan an immortal who has survived for thousands of years, than the GM is not playing the immortal well enough. Shadowrun is a game where the players scratch out life in the shadows of these powers (and of course the Megacorps, which are the new third set of power players in the sixth world).

P.S. if it is part of the publisher's meta-plot, or a game master's campaign arc that one of these power players is taking out another using the players as pawns, that would be different, and stats are still not really needed, since it is the machinations of one of those players, and the deus ex machina provided, that really do the job in the end.

P.P.S. I am not saying that no human alive could take on dragons or immortal elves, only that the route is not as a Shadowrunner, but rather as a a business-person with the savy and tenacity to rise to real power in Megacorp. And playing that character over the time it would take is also not the game called Shadowrun.

Posted by: hermit May 23 2011, 04:31 PM

Yeah, and requisitioning relics. Besides, is it just me or are ascended Sisters the better Marines? With Heresy Begets Retribution's Mantle of +3 to everywhere, B.C. Power Armour, and a paint-on body glove, they get the same armour as a Terminator and no movement penalties, with faith powers they can buff themselve ssenseless against the harsher foes, and with the ressurrection talents, they're multiplying their wounds by their Fate, essentially ...

... oh, and thanks to Rogue Trader, you can then go and requisition a Grand Cruiser. Yeah, Influence is everything in Ascended Dark Heresy.


Will you stop giving them ideas?!


You could give stats in three versions for low, med and high powered groups, I guess, but then again why then stat them at all. A Crunch guideline "statting my Big Playa NPC" and a ranking system from "equal" to "elder being" to give guidelines on power might be a better idea.

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 04:35 PM

Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?

Well, Marines have unnat stats and all those rad moves.

Posted by: Vuron May 23 2011, 04:42 PM

Well you can interact with the big 4th world movers and shakers in a variety of ways without being insta-gibbed or making them chumps.

1)The old-timers squad aren't omnipotent or omnipresent. Even GDs understand that true power is not your physical might or magical prowess but what sort of influence you have on the world around you. As such they use their vast resources and contacts to influence the world. For the most part they individually have massive even mind-boggling resources but they are dwarfed by the Megacorps (Lofwyr being the primary exception). They are just enormously focused and can afford to play the long game.

2)Just like individual runners can afford to target and foil Megacorps without getting slaughtered, Runners can engage with GDs and IEs as both allies and adversaries. If you have a serious hate-on for Lofwyr you can try to foil his plots, granted other people like Mina Graf-Beloit and Johnny Spinrad have tried the same and failed but you can at least slow him down.

3) GDs and IEs seem to be enjoying a certain level of detente between themselves. As such interactions between them rarely get to the fisticuffs phase. Low level proxy wars using deniable assets seem to be order of business. I think it's definitely doable to work with one faction against another faction and as long as you behave yourself for the most part the IEs and GDs don't summarily execute each other's pawns lest the detente crumble.

4) It doesn't serve their interests to go Ghostwalker on the non-awakened very often. You want people to respect your might but not rise up in opposition to oppose you because a) mundanes have some pretty cool tricks and weapons that can even slay immortals and b) you need to mundanes to do all the stuff you don't have the time or inclination to do, like build kaer/arcologies.

The problem with stating them is that if it has a statblock it's killable unless you give them all sorts of a super secret spells and powers that are DM only don't use. And then you have every powergamer wondering why he can't learn special dragon/ie magic. It's just a bad scene.

So if you absolutely must stat a IE or GD make them a 6th World variation (like Masaru or Frosty or Lady Brane Deigh) don't stat the 4th world heavyweights because that way lies madness.

Posted by: Vuron May 23 2011, 04:47 PM

Arleesh got a statblock in a 1e adventure and Rhonabwy got a statblock in Prime Runners. I vaguely remember some sort of White Wolf Inphobia with stats for another GD back in the day but it was probably noncanonical and I can't find my copy of it.

Harlequin has some rough guidelines about him but IIRC there are no canonical IE statblocks. You could probably take Zessler's Prime Runner statblock as a good starting point though.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 23 2011, 04:47 PM

Stats for younger greats introduced in SR4 page 297 and can find them in SR4A on page 304.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 23 2011, 04:56 PM

Looks like they covered the basics above, buuut...

Arleesh is statted out in Bottled Demon.
Rhonaby is in Prime Runners
Masaru is statted up in CyberPirates

"Generic" Great Dragon is in SR 4's critter section, page 300-ish.

Been at least a half-dozen normal dragons printed up as well.

Lofwyr's a wee bit stronger than those mentioned up above, obviously, but his main strength comes from his head and resources, not his (admitedly impressive!) magical side. I want to say that the Lung is the strongest magician of the Great Dragons, but Rumiyo's probably #2. Dunk was up there as well, but had a different directon, so I don't think he'd mastered to Lung's level. (Personal opnion, mind.)

Posted by: Critias May 23 2011, 05:03 PM

Depends on what you mean by magician -- in terms of summoning (though maybe not spellcasting), Ghostwalker's always been the big dog on the porch.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 23 2011, 05:06 PM

Quite true! With the average Great Dragon having Sorcery at 10, I'd personally put Lung on top with a 12, and give Ghostwalker the standard Sorcery 10 but give him Conjuring 12 to Lung's 10.

Similarly, an average Great Dragon has Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower at 13. Ol' Golden Snout would benchmark around a 15 Logic, IMHO, possibly as high as an 18, since he runs all of S-K in his head. Hestaby's probably more charasmatic, Aden likely has more Agility due to his fightyness, and so on.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 23 2011, 05:08 PM

I would have liked it better if the GD & IE were never defined. Just a generic "The Powers in the Shadows" beings. These being lived as long as they have because they don't sit still long enough for anybody to get a really good look at them.

Posted by: Critias May 23 2011, 05:16 PM

Yeah, but when that route gets taken, people complain about Mary Sues and GM fiat and metaplot domination and stuff like that (heck, some people still gripe about Harley not being fully statted up in adventures that are 17+ years old, and I remember complaints that Lofwyr wasn't statted in the old Prime Runners book!). Supplying some stats for old favorites (and a few new names), but most importantly supplying some in-depth information on them all, some cool Shadowtalk, and some plot/adventure ideas that include these guys? Some folks are really gonna dig that sort of thing.

There's not gonna be a rule in Street Legends (or anywhere else) that says any given GM has to use the material being provided. If you aren't a fan of the big-name NPCs, maybe the book's just not up your alley, and that's cool. But if you want the fluff and not the crunch, CGL hasn't got commando teams on standby to kick in your door if you stat up Lofwyr differently for your game, or alter the Body of Talon, or whatever else you want to do. It's your game, rock out however you want to.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 23 2011, 05:25 PM

I do worry a bit, however, about rules being broken, or needing to invalidate rules, for some stuff.

For example, let's take Fastjack. You have to assume he was some sort of Prodigy talent allowing a computer skill (Hacking? Combat?) to be a 7, rather than a 6. If he has a Hacking skill of, say, 9, then on the one hand, he probably deserves it but on the OTHER hand, there'd better be some notation of how someone can break the rules like that. Maybe a notation of "Legendary Talent", where the usual cap on stats and skills can be pushed through ... if you try hard enough. Pay 10 times the usual Karma cost and you can break the rules, allowing you to have no *real* limit in your ability.

WHich pushes us back down to some of the older Shadowrun days, which is a bad thing in many eyes and a good thing in many others.

But if you just toss Fastjack out with a Cybercombat of 13, it isn't fair to the playerbase who can never get past a 7.

So ... there's going to be some tough calls to make, here. (Errr, there were some tough calls to make, I should say. All the work is long done.)

Posted by: Stahlseele May 23 2011, 05:43 PM

DTSW had Stats for 3 or 4 kinds of Dragons.
Child, Adolescent, Adult and Great, where Great was simply:"Take Adult and add 10 or 15 to every stat" i think.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 23 2011, 05:45 PM

Rhonabwy stat block in PR had his magic listed at 25. With some physical drain could cast at force 50 *grin*. Earlier edition of rules.

edit: Mentions him casting between force 5 and 20 for most spells. Guess he figures why show off.

Posted by: Sengir May 23 2011, 05:49 PM

And even in that much-loathed product, the descriptions say something to the end of "not that all of this matters, he always wins". In other words, when in doubt ignore the stats and switch back to GM handwaving.

PS: Shouldn't "complete game stats" also include a complete list of contacts? Now that's going to be quite a list

Posted by: Bull May 23 2011, 05:51 PM

*shrug*

One thing to keep in mind... This isn't just a "Big Book of Stat Blocks". It also includes history, stories, and backgrounds on these characters. For some characters, it'll be completely new material since we don't know much about them. For others, it'll be compiling information from over two decades of canon into one location for newer players that don't have the older books.

And hey, GMs can always tweak or ignore statblocks as needed. Hell, even back in the old Basic/1st/2nd D&D days... If I wanted 3 or 4 or 10 HD Orc, I made one, even though Orcs were clearly 1 Hit Die creatures by the Monster Manual. Lord knows I don;t always stick to the stats given in the SR books now. I modify everything to fit the challenge level I want to present to the players... If it's supposed to be easier, I tone it down. If it's harder, I tone it up. <shrug>

Stats are a tough spot, because a lot of time you look at them, and they're just ridiculous. They're either way too low, or their obviously cheese-munched 6 ways from Sunday. SR4's stat/skill restrictions (and the fact it's so damn easy to cap out at character creation) makes it even tougher.

But, if the book was released sans-stats, just as many folks complaining about their being stats would be complaining that their weren't any. So easier to give stats and say "Ignore these as needed".

And hey, if your players complain, smack them upside the head with the book.

Bull

Posted by: Fatum May 23 2011, 06:39 PM

Stalin used to say so too!

Posted by: Headshot_Joe May 23 2011, 06:42 PM

Everybody GMs this game differently, every group runs at a different level of power and ability, and most importantly, everyone has their own perceptions of these mythical characters. I don't mind if CGL stats them out. If I don't feel they're at the right power level for whichever game I am running that may feature them, I will restat them for that adventure. If they aren't meant to be fathomable, I simply won't stat them, and maintain their mystery status.

There will be times the group will want to play a grittier game with impossible enemies, there will be times they wish to unlimber the pinkest mohawk rifles of ultimate power and go on a great dragon killing spree. Who am I to deny them their desired campaign?

I am more excited for the updated information on all these awesome folks than I am to nerd rage about the stats.




Also, I am completely ashamed of all you Dampsharkers for letting any thread that mentions Nadja Daviar to go this long without the mention of lusty brown elven nipples!

Posted by: Prime Mover May 23 2011, 07:22 PM

Damn how'd that happen....must have been the tease of dice pools in the triple digits that distracted us. *joke*

Posted by: SirBedevere May 23 2011, 08:10 PM

We've always lilked the concept that IE and GDs have enough Karma to pick up any skills they need at whatever level they need and Magic that's out of sight of any mortal. Having said that we came up with a couple of ways to kill them (the team were working for Alimais, opposing a dragon killing sect - long story); the sect intended to use a sniper with a laser rifle aiming at the eye.

A large number of IEs could be got rid of by hitting Portland with a Thor shot. Getting one's the difficult bit

Posted by: Stahlseele May 23 2011, 08:28 PM

Alamais got hit by orbital Laser Cannons and is still alive to grumble about it . .

Posted by: redwulf25 May 23 2011, 08:40 PM

Someone who wants to cap off their campaign with a run to assassinate Lofwyr?

Posted by: Critias May 23 2011, 08:40 PM

There was a long discussion about that sort of thing amongst us writers, trust me. I think what we settled on was a pretty cool way to handle it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 23 2011, 08:50 PM

Can't wait to see it...

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 23 2011, 10:03 PM

Did we settle on something finally? I can't remember....

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 02:53 AM

I'd love to see that.

From the Moon. I think I'd be safe enough there for the fight.

Remember folks, the only Great Dragon that has been successfully offed has been Dunkie, and they're still not sure how it was even done.

Posted by: Method May 24 2011, 03:20 AM

Very reassuring Patrick...

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 03:32 AM

I do what I can.

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 03:39 AM

Uh, Feuerschwinge? Nachtmeister?

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 03:41 AM

Must be in German sourcebooks.

Or my being hit. Repeatedly. In the head. Is affecting me again.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 24 2011, 04:44 AM

If you'll forgive my brief Reaganism, "Trust, but verify."

Will there be a way for PCs to match the Metahuman NPCs abilities, even if takes ten years worth of Karma, a bankroll worthy of a dragon, and just the right selection of Qualities, or will NPCs be given abilities that PCs can't have (AKA, Yes, Fastjack is better than your PC. He's Fastjack, after all.)?

Don't need details, just some assurance.

(I'll buy it either way mind you!)

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 24 2011, 04:59 AM

You are entitled to believe this, however let me put forth a counter argument:

Immortal elves are stupid, they were stupid when they were first cooked up, their just as stupid now. The game and setting only gets better without them

See, two differing opinions, neither grounded entirely in fact only belief. I've always vaguely blamed the Highlander movie and white wolf for this utterly ridiculous idea that we've got immortal elves running around. It's the best sort of literary short cut, you take a past event, point to one of your characters and say "THEY" were responsible for it. Character gets a competence boost. You would have Immortal Elves take that to the (il)logical extreme, that we have a small cadre of beings that while having their existence being almost completely unknown have secretly been involved in every important event.

Further ok lets say that your immortal elf does exist, and lets say they have perfect memory (something I cannot recall the immortal elves particularly being stated to have). Even if you are the greatest sword fighter in the world you can still take a shot to the eye, you can still state enthusiastically that the cannon crews couldn't hit an elephant from this distance. You can still state that you are immortal and guarantee your death. The simple fact is that as much as we like to tell ourselves otherwise, (meta)humans even magical ones if their based on a human template are still frail creatures when it comes to kinetic force.



Actually that is what you are saying, because in Shadowrun Shadowrunners are the pinacle of human potential, full stop, Damient Knight, is a prime runner. That is a convention of the rules system and therefore of the game world.

Posted by: Critias May 24 2011, 05:21 AM

I'm not out to be coy about it, but I'm genuinely not sure what I can or can't say without violating the NDA. Saying "we came up with something" is kosher, I'm certain, but saying what we came up with (or otherwise giving more details) is moving a conversation somewhere I'm not sure is cool. I'll tell you that I know one -- the character I'm handling the chapter and stats for -- is perfectly rules legal, albeit experienced (and as a result, powerful). Talking about other peoples' stuff, though, is something that may rock the boat.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 24 2011, 05:40 AM

Oh, I understand... I've signed an NDA or two as well. (My work never got picked, but, you know, I was floating around all the same!)

What you said is plenty fine, and I have no intention of prying further. Consider it trusted and verified.

Huzzah!

Posted by: Critias May 24 2011, 05:52 AM

Personally, I think it's a book that will elicit a strong, albeit mixed, reaction from long-time fans. With stuff like Runner's Toolkit primarily being useful to new Shadowrun players, I think Street Legends is going to appeal the most powerfully to the guys (and gals) who've been in The Sixth World for the long haul. The ones who recognize all the names from that upcoming releases blurb are going to be the ones that love it (or hate it) the most.

Because stats are bring provided, there's going to be room for disagreement. To some campaigns a badass might not have the numbers to back up his badassery, in other campaigns they'll be completely untouchable. Depending on the power level of any given GM/player, and their expectations, some folks will be flabbergasted at how tough some of these guys are, while others will be unimpressed and think they're weak; that's just the nature of supplying stats to something.

The fallout of a book of this nature without those stats, though, would be akin to War! levels of irritation among the community (and just as rightfully so, in my opinion). Not many people want all fluff and no crunch at all, right? So in addition to focusing on these legends and giving more detail about who they are and what they do, in addition to attaching some plot hooks and metaplot elements to keep them useful to many a campaign, in addition to having some sweet artwork lined up in what's going to be a gorgeous book...we're givin' 'em all numbers.

Like always, though, our numbers aren't the game. You and your buddies slinging dice around a table, sharing pizza and Mt. Dew, is the game. Tweak 'em like you want to to make them fit your power level, if you think changes are needed.

Posted by: ggodo May 24 2011, 06:04 AM

My last campaign ended with the powergamer trying to kill Lofwyr after Lofwyr sent the team to the moon. Lofwyr backhanded him through the wall. While in human form.

Posted by: Kesendeja May 24 2011, 08:12 AM

RAW there is no way to have a skill higher than 7, but on pg 303 in the 4A book dragons have a Assensing of 8, and Sorcery Group of 8. And lets not talk Great Dragons with their skills of Conjuring Group 8, and Sorcery Group of 12. I know they're dragons, but if they breaks this consistently, GM's should have the options however rare and expensive for NPC's and the occasional PC to be able to do the same with some sort of guideline.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 08:17 AM

Nachtmeister was killed by another Great dragon. Lofwyr to be exact i think.
Feuerschwinge was shot down over the Sox but survived to become a toxic mutant great dragon of Radiation.
Wether or not she was killed in a simple napalm bombing run later on is up to debate . .

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 08:24 AM

OK, so one Great was taken down by the Second-Most Great Dragon (Other than Dunkie) of the time.

As for the other... Napalm killing a Dragon? Great, now we have a Toxic Mutant Great Radioactive Dragon (Gojira?) with burn scars.

Posted by: hermit May 24 2011, 08:56 AM

A guide on how to use powerful NPCs in games would be handy, though, and add to the gaming value of such a book. And maybe a guide to adapt the stats to different power level groups.

The worst thing about War, though,wasn't that it was all fluff and no crunch (it certainly wasn't), it was the extremly low quality of writing, especially in the crunch section (with things like Slow, the broken mega damage rules, statted nukes that do less damage than a bunch of grenades). In the end, a product rises and falls with it's production quality most, concept second only.

And while we're at it, whatever happened to 99 bottles?

Posted by: TheOOB May 24 2011, 09:02 AM

While I'd like to be excited, I can't shake the feeling that we'll pay for a full gaming book that will contain some good stories and stats on characters you're unlikely to ever use, when it might be better to drop the stats and just have a cheap paperback book full of short stories.

The again, could be great, time will tell.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 24 2011, 10:54 AM

That is overlooking the special edge related power that great dragons come with...

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 10:57 AM

Basically.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 24 2011, 11:03 AM

Do you really think this, that there should be a whole book devoted to how to use powerfull NPC's in your games? You'd really rather set that then statblocks and info splats? Because i find this nitpick absurd.

Posted by: Grinder May 24 2011, 11:12 AM

It may be part of te book - hermit didn't demand it to be a complete book.

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 11:21 AM

Yeah, Lofwyr it was.

I'm so totally putting my tinfoil hat on.
No, seriously - isn't that whole "Feuerschwinge is aliiiive and she's gathering an army of toxic mutants" just a conspiracy theory? I haven't gotten to reading SOX...

Dragons have their own innate magic tradition inaccessible to other races; it takes thousands of years for a Great to reach the height of his power.
Whether there are rules for duplicating that or not, where are you getting the NPCs to use them?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 12:31 PM

Yes and no. It was detailed in a Novel and there are Hints about it in the SOX book i think.
But no Body was found. Again.

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 12:54 PM

The book got lost during my last move, but I'm quite sure that it left open the possibility of the "dragon" being nothing but an illusion cast by the toxic or that mad Arab (hey, I didn't make up that pun) mage...

Posted by: hermit May 24 2011, 02:33 PM

Do you really not understand I meant the guide to be a part of the book, or is this just your usual trolling? Either way, it's certainly not my nitpick which looks absurd here.


I vaguely remember Eisman mentioning something after SoE's release that they consider the Heintz novels only vaguely canon and toned them down (there were no nuked Russian cities either, for instance), and that what the runners in Gottes Engel saw was actually a huge toxic spirit. There's something to that effect in SOX, too.

It could, of course, be Toxic Lethe.

Posted by: Grinder May 24 2011, 03:36 PM

Stop that.

Posted by: MJBurrage May 24 2011, 03:59 PM

First, like it or not, Immortal elves that have survived for over five thousand years do exist in the Shadowrun canon. Second, they are officially responsible for very little of recorded history, since they mostly stayed in the shadows. Sure there are rumors that they were many important figures in history, but I do not recall those rumors ever being presented as fact. One good example is the immortal named Leonardo who clearly is a fan of Da Vinci. While rumors have claimed they were one and the same, Ehran has clearly discussed talking to the actual mortal human Da Vinchi.

I also never said the immortal elves should have unobtainable physical power. What I said was that the level of tactical ability and caution required to survive for over five thousand years (when physically you are no harder to kill than the toughest mortals) IS almost unfathomable. If any runner who has only been around around for a mortals lifetime is able to get the drop on an NPC that has survived thousands of years of such plotting, then the NPC was poorly played by the GM.

As for stating out such immortals; if they only earn 1 Karma a year, they have over 5000 to play with. More likely they keep a very low profile almost all the time, but just one adventure grade outing every few years would give them at least 10,000+ karma to be built with. So if one follows all the rules for PCs, then they long ago maxed out every single survival related skill. Even after becoming double digit Initiates they would have thousands of Karma left for knowledge skills to back up their physical and magical abilities.

When the Fourth World ended, there were probably hundreds of elves who who were immortal by birth, but by the beginning of the Sixth World we are down to around a dozen (maybe a score) that have survived the world and each other. To presume that a recently created character is going to be a real threat to them is hubris.

Damian Knight is actually a perfect example of the point I made. No matter how tough he is stat-wise it took a move into running a mega corp to become a real power player. While running a megacorp might be a fun game to play to play for some, it is not Shadowrun as defined by Shadowrun's rules and focus.

Summary: You don't have to like immortals, you don't have to even have them exist in your game. But they are canon, and simply by surviving so long they have demonstrated planning and tactics beyond any mortal character played by the rules.

P.S. In over 20 years of playing and GMing Shadowrun, immortal NPCs have never significantly interacted with PCs with the single exception of playing the Harlequin adventure back in the day. The one exception I can think of in recent material is Frosty, and as a new immortal, she is more potential than power today. It is not immunity to age that makes old immortals powerful, it is the experience of living all that time.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 04:17 PM

So's the one I'm working on, FWIW.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 04:18 PM

Ain't magic grand?

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 04:44 PM

That would be the in-universe reason, the reality was more like "they overdid the ancient immortals conspiracy, thereby necessitating a classic 'it was only a dream/delusion' retcon"

And it definitely was a change for the better.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 04:53 PM

Alachia was Queen of England once, and Eva Braun i think . .

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 05:03 PM

The problem with old age is that it becomes irrelevant.

Imagining that there is a creature who has been watching from the shadows for the past 5000 years. A quick look at any history timeline will show that the first 2500 were really pretty pointless. It took about 2000 years to go from wheeled vehicles to iron smelting ( http://www.sciencetimeline.net/prehistory.htm ). Most of science is recent and the rate at which it's discovered appears to be increasing (See Robert Anton Wilson's "The Acceleration of Knowledge").

Imagine that such a creature pokes his head out of the shadows when Shadowrun was first written (1989). He sees this bright new communication technology ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbJZ9HBw2k ). He takes a look at the top of the line information devices ( http://www.be.wvu.edu/divecon/econ/sobel/Entr/1989computer.jpg ).

By 2011 he's living in a world that's changing faster than it's ever changed before. 4800 years did not prepare him for the passage between that cellphone and computer ad to an iPhone/Android world. The mortal person who was born in 1989 understands the internet, understands texting, understands iPhones. And they understand it because they never had to understand a different way. This is the mortal's world, not the immortal's. He's still in the age of Alexandria, not the age of Twitter.

This poor creature has spent 4980 years without an internet. He spent the first 1600 years watching the alphabet get slowly created and hieroglyphics getting phased out. That sort of experience doesn't prepare someone for the last 100 years, the last 50, the last 20.

4980 years of his life is not only largely irrelevant, it's become a handicap. Years of tea ceremonies does not prepare anyone for Red Bull. Even if he somehow tried to keep up and mastered recent new technology, such as the Palm Pilot, that leaves him with a plethora of completely useless knowledge.

Assuming 1 karma a year, 1000 points of that Karma are spent on pottery and plowing and taking care of the Oxen. Maybe in the 1600's he specialized in flintlocks. We didn't even have an automatic rifle till 1903. The vast majority of that 1 karma a year is completely and totally obsolete. How many points of Etiquette for societies that don't even exist anymore?

It's a brave new world.

Posted by: Mäx May 24 2011, 05:15 PM

This would maybe be relevant if the SR worlds history was same as ours, but it really isn't.

Posted by: KCKitsune May 24 2011, 05:15 PM

suoq... the link for that computer... MY GOD! $9000 for a computer!

Except the concepts that suoq brought up are still valid. Actually, it's even worse. The level of tech acceleration is higher in the SR world than RL.

Posted by: X-Kalibur May 24 2011, 05:54 PM

So... does this book mean they will finally confirm Damien Knight's true identity as former Echo Mirage team leader Major David Gavilan?

<edit> I mean, while they are busy jumping the shark and all...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 06:23 PM

Except that the IE's and GD's came from the Orichalcum Age, where Magic ruled, and took the place of what we use for Cybertech in the 2070's. Maybe Culture took a nose dive after the 4th Age ended, but so what. They have thousands of years to work on stuff they already knew. The last 400-500 years (1600's and on) were just a re-affirmation of what they mostly knew already.

Anyone capable of living for those 7,000-10,000 years is quite capable of adapting. They have had to do it enough.

Not that I am hoping for more ED stuff in my Shadowrun...

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 06:33 PM

Tech has changed much. Humans have changed very little (and an Immortal Elf from the Fourth Age is better prepared for the change the Awakening brought than the whole humanity combined).

Nope. Throughout those 5000 years an Immortal Elf had a chance to see the rise and fall of Hellenistic civilization; the rise and fall of the Romans; the Mongol and Osman conquests; the Renaissance; the Age of Discovery etcetera etcetera. The world has changed vastly over a single mortal lifetime for uncounted times, Immortals should be well prepared for riding that wave.

Do you think politic intrigue is that different today from what the Ancient History had to offer? As correctly pointed out up there, the whole setup is rather like the Dark Heresy Ascension subsystem - what matters not who you are or how strong you are individually, but your ability to get what you want from others, your skill at working the system.

Or maybe he spent those on Physical skills. Or the Influence skill group. Or, you know, Magical skills, something the humanity hasn't been aware about until very very recently.
Actually, even if not, his skills at wielding an assault rifle, piloting a plane or bypassing electronics will still be superior, because he was there when the first test devices appeared, has seen the technology develop, and has more experience with it than any living person.

Childtalk :ь

Posted by: MJBurrage May 24 2011, 07:00 PM

Ehran talking about the very human Da Vinci, was long before Leonardo the IE ever showed up in the game's writing.

I have noticed that IE haters tend to take every in-game rumor about them as in-game fact when making lists of reasons not to like them. One of my favourite things about the game is that since almost all information about the world is from in-game sources, you can make of it what you want.

Yes, we the players know they were behind the founding of two countries. But—aside from street rumor—they are a tiny part of every game I have played. That does not stop some people (in and out of game) from seeing them behind everything that happens.

Posted by: hermit May 24 2011, 07:12 PM

And since IEs are more like 10.000 years old, they're about 4000 years head in magic. Half of which they cannot use yet, but each IE easily knows more about magic than the entire rest of modern SR civilisation put together. The kind of magic that, like the Great Ghost Dance, doesn't even have stats.

Yeah, they sunk 5000 of their 10000 Karma into skills like skyship sailing, theran politics and creatures of the blood wood. the other 5000 went into initiation and spells, metamagic that is unknown to any but them and the more advanced dragons, and they sure accumulated a HELL of a lot of items and money. Besides, it's not like they're not collecting Karma anymore. And are unable to learn (though some clearly are unwilling).

And what, exactly, is necessary in reparation for Red Bull anyway. Really Bad Taste (Soft Drinks) 6 (+2)?

Posted by: Critias May 24 2011, 07:24 PM

I'm not out to get all nit-picky and quibble over every line of text that's being written, Hermit, but in the very quote you posted this in reply to, I did say:

So, yes. We're well aware that epic, legendary, high-power characters like this may not be immediately useful to every single GM in every single game out there, and we're doing what we can to help folks integrate them into their own campaigns.

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 07:26 PM

"We are more different genetically from people living 5,000 years ago than they were different from Neanderthals." John Hawks -University of Wisconsin anthropologist
Your statement is vague enough to be interpreted in many ways, but I cannot think of a way that humanity has changed very little in 5000 years.
Ripples do not prepare a person for a tidal wave.
Yes. I do.
The system changed. The politics of even 200 years ago are not the politics of today. Anyone with 5000 years of humanity is going to stare at the tanks doing absolutely nothing in Egypt and realize that they don't understand what's happening because 5000 years of humanity doesn't prepare someone for a military that lets people spray graffiti on their tanks.

So what has he been doing for the past 20 years? All of them? Is he keeping up with all of the magic, all of the technology, all of everything that's changing every single day, from nanites to technomancers to bug spirits?

It's a new world with dangers that simply didn't exist until now. Whatever he's spent the past 5000 years preparing for, I doubt it was today.

Their best bet for survival? Get out. Get far away from everything. Don't even be in the same time zone as something that might invite a Thor Shot. But don't get in the middle of a world that's changing faster than ever before or something you don't understand is going to take you out.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 24 2011, 07:50 PM

Politics is no different from the Roman Era to our own Era. It is all about power and maneuvering for such.



Yet you contend that a human born in the era is uniquely equipped for such things. I call BS on that. An IE/GD is just as capable of learning as a human is. More so, since his attributes are likely higher than the Human's is. You are talking about creatureS that likely have maximum stats. They can adapt, create and outperform any other species in existence, inherently.



I cannot disagree more. They (IE's and GD's) have seen the rise and fall of civilizations on such a scale that we cannot even comprehend it, and you think that modern humanity is better equipped to handle that? Nope, not buying it...

Posted by: MJBurrage May 24 2011, 07:55 PM

If someone born in the last 60 years can keep up with than world than so can someone with a 5000+ year head start.

Speculating that an immortal must stagnate over time, and can no longer learn new skills is interesting, and even the focus of some good non-Shadowrun fiction. But I have never seen anything in Shadowrun that implies some acquired inability to learn important skills that comes with age.

Sure the fluff has them lament on the changes in the world, but none of it suggests that they fail to keep up on skills that would keep them alive.

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 08:02 PM

Same goals, same motivations, same ways to reach said goals.

So, Alexander's or Genghis-Khan's conquests were ripples? They were insignificant? They conquered pretty much the whole world known to them - in but a single lifetime.
The Fall of Rome was insignificant? When the entirety of the world as most then-Europeans knew it fell apart? The World Wars, maybe, too?
Would you please name the changes in 2000-2070 that'd be more significant, and at the same time not something the Immortal Elves could foretell 5000 years prior?

And never before was a ruler removed by the revolting plebes which the army refused to fight.
Never before has non-cooperation ousted a government!

An Immortal Elf knows more about magic (and Invae) than the entirety of metahumanity put together.
Besides, an immortal has around what, 150 years to learn electronics, driving cars, flying planes and firing modern firearms? Sure he may lag on nanites and technomancers, or any of the latest developments, but he's had plenty of time to get used to what the XX century had to offer.

Surviving for 5k years strongly implies that immortals are not in any way stupid. If a human with 20 years of experience is capable of understanding what's going on around him, an Immortal Elf is capable of doing that better, because he, unlike said human, witnessed the reasons for current events (and, most likely, has much more first-hand info than most humans).

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 08:12 PM

An army (especially a conscript one) refusing to put down the opposition. Booooring, that's one of the reasons conscript armies were introduced in the first place


The same way as anyone else I guess...only that for them magic and various magical threats are no reason to enter headless chicken mode.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 24 2011, 08:22 PM

If Immortal Elves are on the power-scale (or near) of Great Dragons who spent the last 5 thousand years sleeping and were able to quie quickly catch the details of post-modern world, I don't see how the Immortal Elves, whom interacted with mankind the whole time, can not.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 24 2011, 08:56 PM

I fail to see how simple longevity leads to brilliance or tactical mastery when longevity is their primary stick, immunity to age and disease protects one better then immunity to violence would.

@shinobi: The contant case about dragons is they have the physical might to stand up to armies on top of and augmented by their magical abilities. Putting IE's on that same tier is pure wankery. It's people who got hung up on Highlander (and you cannot tell me with a straight face that it didn't influence the immortal elf plotline)..3


I'll say it again, and this is my opinion only, Immortal Elves weaken Shadowrun their weak storytelling and they get WOD all over my sixth world. I want this to be a game about magic and future tech, immortal elves and to a large extent dragons skew that ratio all out of whack.

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 09:09 PM

Nope. The mooks die all the time. Everyone dies all the time. Just being old doesn't make you bulletproof.

If you're old BECAUSE you're bulletproof, that's a completely different thing.

I'm not saying that mortals are better than immortals. They aren't. But you don't have to be better than someone to kill them. It didn't matter how much karma George S Patton had, he still bought it in a car crash.

And in Shadowrun, even dragons die.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 24 2011, 09:11 PM

The sentence above does not compile. Now, I would agree with you that if somehow some elves, and to an extent even dwarves, orks and trolls were capable to create something similar to what dragons did to sleep during the down cycle, I would accept it more easily.

But really, having some kind of guys in the shadows during the entire civilization does not me rub the wrong way.

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 09:18 PM

There is of course the wisdom of old ages, but primarily I think you got the cart before the horse: Only people with foresight, the ability to adapt etc. would have made it into the 6th world. Any other immortal would have found plenty of opportunity to die from something else than age or Black Death over the millennia.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 24 2011, 09:20 PM

Soooo...
Survival of the fttest?

Posted by: MJBurrage May 24 2011, 09:36 PM

Immortal elves are—according to the rules—Immune to Age, Disease, Pathogens, & Poisons. That does not make them smart, carfty, or more capable in general. It does give them a better chance to to live long enough to develop survival skills.

Being born an immortal elf does not mean you will live for thousands of years and rack up enough magical power to max all the skills listed in the rules. If a young immortal elf is not crafty enough, than someone will take them out.

The immortal elves of note are those at the intersection of a Venn diagram, both unaging and crafty enough to survive. There were probably hundreds (if not thousands) of immortal elves born in the Fourth World, the dozen or so craftiest still survive. That level of survival instinct is truly beyond my imagining, and yet they have it. So I say again, that if players are able to get the drop on them than the GM just did not play them well enough.

So could a mortal fencer get good enough to win a stand-up duel against an immortal? sure. Would a shot to the head kill an immortal if it hits? sure. But the immortals have survived over 5000 years of others trying. The odds of a player in any Shadowrun game played by the rules being the one to finally get through all the planning and precautions are zero.

Posted by: CanRay May 24 2011, 09:38 PM

It also makes it really, really difficult to get drunk. Which, when you consider some of the days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries some of these folks have had...

Posted by: redwulf25 May 24 2011, 09:39 PM

I'm pretty sure the IE's and GD's reaction to Bug Spirits was something along the lines of "Not them again!" The magic, tech, and nanites I'd be surprised if some of them didn't have a hand in their invention.

Posted by: Sengir May 24 2011, 09:44 PM

Yep. Social Darwinism is a sinister direction, but I think in this case it's a good explanation.

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 09:50 PM

I wouldn't say it's zero, but it's surely an incredibly small chance. Never say "no, you can't under any circumstances" to your players - and hell, I can think of a dozen scenarios for an IE to risk his life, or even sacrifice it.
Consider, for example, Frosty - she's not all that powerful, and at least two IEs are incredibly invested in her...

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 09:59 PM

So, what you're saying is that a player character should never get close to one of these, either through electronic, physical, or astral means. Stats are meaningless because in your campaign your characters will never actually encounter any of these beings. And that's fine. Gods don't die when they don't fight mortals.

However, that means that others didn't have a hand. For any given immortal, while they may have had their fingers in many pies, I'd be hard pressed to name one that had his fingers in all of them. "The dragon himself (Dunkelzahn) seems fascinated by the concept of virtual reality, its applications and implications." The word "fascinated" to me indicates "surprise" and anything that can surprise you in Shadowrun can hold something that can kill you. These may be beings that kept up with changes for thousands of years, but things are changing quickly now, faster then ever before, and if they're changing more quickly than an immortal can follow, that immortal is risking death.

Posted by: Grinder May 24 2011, 10:00 PM

Can we get back to a discussion about the style/ format of the new sourcebooks? Less to no metaplot, but NPCs, locations, and adventure seeds only?

Posted by: Fatum May 24 2011, 10:01 PM

Please explain how VR can kill Dunkelzahn

If things are changing too fast for an immortal to keep up, they're changing far too fast for mortals to keep up.


I don't remember all that many statblocks in the recent books, so in what comes to styles, we'll just have to see.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 10:04 PM

Probably not as much metaplot as some would like, but I've seen some of the character writeups and some of the fiction. Metaplot is dealt with. The writeup I'm doing doesn't touch on a lot of the bigger metaplot, but there's bits and pieces of it in there. It's looking pretty cool so far, from where I sit, but I'm also on record as saying I like things cinematic and I like big names in my games, even if they are only dropping by on their way to doing something else. I'm not afraid of cameos.

And I'm kind of enjoying the IE discussion, though I suppose it should go find a thread of its own....

Posted by: Doc Byte May 24 2011, 10:06 PM

Give 'em stats and they can be killed. - Reminds me of my Star Wars group back then. When our Jedi Knight was starting to develop better stats than Luke Skywalker we had to enforce some caps on his Force skills.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 10:11 PM

While he's at it, maybe he can explain how "http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascinate" necessarily equates with "http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/surprise." There's very little overlap there.

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 10:52 PM

Mortals aren't keeping up. They're getting killed by it. Huge numbers of them are afraid of everything out there that they don't understand. Many of them are trying to kill what they don't understand before what they don't understand kills them.


from your link to fascinate: "unique power, personal charm, unusual nature, or some other special quality"
from your link to surprise: "as through unexpectedness" (unexpected occurs a lot in that set of definations).
If you can't see a link between unexpected and unique, unusual, and special, then I can't help you find one. It's your problem, not mine.

As far as killing Dunkelzahn, it appears someone beat your runners to it. All that took was an explosion. And all his years of experience taught him one lesson you're not getting. Dragons need to have a will for when they die.

Posted by: Sephiroth May 24 2011, 11:23 PM

No one killed Dunkelzahn. Where have you been, bro?

@Critias, Patrick Goodman: Are you guys actually allowed to tell us whether Street Legends will feature any IE's, at least from the standpoint of their being IE's? I.e. (no pun intended) suppose one of the characters covered is Prince Lugh Surehand. Would Surehand in this example be featured as a powerful NPC because he is an Immortal Elf, and focus on that as such, or would he be featured more because of his political importance in Tir Tairngire?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 11:49 PM

You do enjoy reaching, don't you?

I can be fascinated by a lot of things that don't surprise me. I'm finding fascination right now in the actions of my son, whose having a ball with some oversize Legos. This is not surprising at all, but it's quite fascinating. Dunkie found a lot of things fascinating (including humanity), but I never saw that he was surprised by most of it.

You're new here, aren't you? That wasn't a simple explosion. You've clearly got a great deal to catch up on; you should really go find some of the novels and start doing just that.

In the meantime...you're not making a very solid case for immortals not keeping up.

Posted by: suoq May 24 2011, 11:53 PM

My bad. I skipped the novels completely. In the meantime, if you want the immortals to be Mary Sues, go ahead. I don't see it as my job to convince you, just my job to explain how I see things and why.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 24 2011, 11:55 PM

No, probably not a good idea to go there.

That said, most of the IEs aren't a big deal because they're IEs...they're a big deal because of the stuff they do in the world. To use your example, is Lugh Surehand more impressive because he's 10,000 years old, or because of his political history in the Sixth World?

Posted by: Stahlseele May 24 2011, 11:59 PM

So http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Creed is indeed (a) Harlekin?

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 12:06 AM

Early manifesting Technomancers killed President Dunkelzahn! That's why they should all be rounded up and slaughtered!

For the children!

...

Ew, I need a shower now.

Posted by: Bigity May 25 2011, 12:57 AM

Don't care about or want stats, but backgrounds/histories on major players (not just runners) would be a possible good read, world/lore-filling out kind of thing.

Regional 'legends' should be covered in location books.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 25 2011, 01:49 AM

Now, while the IEs did all integrate fairly well, I have to say that, working retail and trying to explain to people born circa WWII about internet use, viruses, and how to connect a printer to their computer is ... challenging.

I suppose part of the magical ceremony that makes 'em immortal also makes 'em immune to "brain stagation". Maybe they have a spirit that they use as an auxillary memory device?

"Hey, Spirit of Man Charlie ... hold this."
"Sure thing boss! What is it?"
"My memories that run from 3200 BC to 80 BC ... those were some DULL years!"
"I'll be quite careful with them, sir." *poof*

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 02:35 AM

Try working tech support for those people and having to deal with Windows ME and Wireless USB Dongles.

Now, if you excuse me, my corner is calling me.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin May 25 2011, 02:49 AM

@Lurker: This keeps bugging me. You keep blaming White Wolf and their WoD for immortal elves, which is utter nonsense. For christ sake, it was in the Lord of the Rings novels. Possibly novels by other authors before that. That's the 1950's crapping all over your Shadowrun, not friggin' WW. If you're going to toss inane blame about, at least target correctly.

@CanRay: Ugh, don't remind me of that stuff. Windows ME, aka Windows Crayola Edition... and gods was it horrible.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 03:08 AM

Mary Sues...I was wondering when that was going to come back into the conversation. The IEs aren't Mary Sues for anyone currently writing for Shadowrun; they were there a long time before any of us started writing for the game. That's a baseless, and frankly silly, assertion.

That said...I don't need any Mary Sues. I had one put into the game for me years ago, and I finally got the chance to kill him. Don't have any plans on putting another one back in with this project.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 03:16 AM

Still looks to be on the schedule; other than that, no clue.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 03:18 AM

You can find them at the main supply depot down the street. Get one with a padded seat, trust me.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 03:24 AM

I'm waiting for the "Rocking Chair and Shotgun" sale bonanza that's been promised.

Posted by: Method May 25 2011, 03:26 AM

Back in my day the rocking chairs always had padded seats...

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 03:55 AM

God, "Mary Sue", the ultimate argument. Except Mary Sue is by definition a writer's self-insert which is unreasonably powerful for the system. Immortal Elves fulfil neither criterion, not any more than Great Dragons or corporate movers and shakers.
Yeah, they might not be the pinnacle of writer's ability, and there's no reason to use them in your campaign, but they make a lot of sense on the whole Earthdawn=>Shadowrun history scale, and make a fine example of secret magical stuff to liven up the system.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 04:16 AM

Grinder, I've never lied to you before and I'm not about to start now: I can't speak to Conspiracy Theories or Corporate Intrigue, because I haven't seen any of the drafts (not even sure that any have been turned in, but I'm not the guy they come to, so take that for what it's worth)...but I can say that Artifacts Unbound moves the metaplot forward bigtime.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 04:24 AM

Here's the deal: Primer Runners had a lot of characters that no one had ever heard of, and almost none of them have been heard from since...and that's just fine with most of the rest of the world, me included. Seriously. Without going to the book, name three characters that appear in there.

Street Legends > Prime Runners. You've heard of most of these people, and people have wanted to know more about them for a long time. I'm pretty damned enthusiastic about this book, more enthused than I've been for a Shadowrun book in a long time. Yes, I'm biased; I'm writing for it. Even if I weren't, though, this book would light me up.

Posted by: TheFr0g May 25 2011, 04:36 AM

Luckily, as GMs and book-owners we have a magic wand that can undo all the damage that Catalyst has done. It is called a black sharpie. If you don't want Lofwyr to have stats, take that magic wand and strike across those blasphemous statistics. By the god-like power of your hand and the Sharpie corporation combined... he is once again invincible.

Seriously, if you dont like something don't use it. Maybe someone wants to run a campaign where their runners have to fight Lofwyr and Harlequin in a steel cage, Catalyst is giving them some stats, it isn't like this is a video game and you're locked into it.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 05:34 AM

On the one hand, we find out about all these folks we've wanted to know more about for a long time!

On the other hand, yes, if you stat them, they will try to kill them. S-K Ketchup, "It goes great with crunchy things!"

On the other-other hand, maybe we'd be better off not knowing. Remember what happened when we found more things about Richard Villiers...

On the other-other-other hand, this *IS* the JackPoint, how accurate the information is can be hotly debated. Misinformation is a key to a lot of things after all, and even high-end Shadowrunners like the Shadowtalkers can be mislead, misinformed, and just plain unable to see past their own prejudices. (If you don't believe me, ask Clockwork to hug a Technomancer. ... Or any of them to get a Corporate Job. Slamm-0! would be a good suggestion, now that he has a kid to take care of.).

On the other-other-other hand... ... ... Damn, ran out of hands.

Posted by: Grinder May 25 2011, 06:00 AM

Ok, cool. The advertisement doesn't tell that, though.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 06:03 AM

Isn't that in the same lines as: "I'm from the Government, I'm here to help"?

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 08:15 AM

Fluff is IC, most often it could be false to a degree. Stats are OOC, they're always correct as supplied.
You can't just say "those stats for assault rifles look suspiciously similar, FastJack must have goofd up damn hackers know nothing of our sammie killy things" etc.

Posted by: Hagga May 25 2011, 08:48 AM

..yeah. See, that's my one problem. THe unkillable is going to be a bit underwhelming - and no longer unkillable. Rhonabwy has 25 magic. Frosty, potentially, over about 40 years of activity (with a good tutor) has.. 16, being roughly an eighth grade initiate.

Posted by: toturi May 25 2011, 09:16 AM

I'd say that although stats are OOC and should be correct as supplied, I hope that the writers or developers would not include disclaimer-type statements like "GMs should alter these stats to suit their campaign" because that would IMO detract from putting those stats in the book in the first place - for something like this, it is all or nothing.

For my part, I would truly like to see how powerful a plot device would be when statted up. Ultimate NPCs being statless, I accept as a necessary evil. But given this book are about Street Legends, I'd love to see such Ultimate NPCs statted up, if only to see what are the capabilities a being thousands of years old can achieve.

I am glad that the writers and devs finally throwdown and put stats to paper for the characters that so far remain nebulous quantities. We know that Fastjack and Smiling Bandit are top class hackers, perhaps now we will know how much better Fastjack really is, even if it is simply a single hair's difference in dice pools. Maybe we will know that Lowfyr could pwn Harlequin, but on a good day, Harley could make Lowfyr wish he never crawled out of his shell.

Later today when I get off work, I will haul my bone tired ass to the FLGS and place an pre-order for a dead tree version of this book. The only reason why I haven't done so is because for the last few days when I got off work, the store had closed. This is how much I anticipate this book. I haven't felt so excited since The George announced the Star Wars prequels. Do not fail us, Obi-wan Kenobis.

Posted by: suoq May 25 2011, 10:52 AM

A hair's difference ahead of what? However you stat him out, he's either not going to make a lot of sense or he's going to be eaten alive by that monstrosity being built in "Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them?". You can build him to defend against characters built with encephalons and PuSHeD, but what are you going to do about the power creep that comes in future sourcebooks? How will he look when some sourcebook makes technomancers even more powerful?

The dice pool thrown by starting characters grows with every sourcebook. If you want your legends to stay legends, you're going to need to take a pen to their stats after a while.

Posted by: Stahlseele May 25 2011, 10:55 AM

Still haven't figured out the Multiquoting Mr.Goodman? O.o

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 11:17 AM

Well, I was more thinking about how to scale their power in relation to the PCs than in plot points, but it's good that this is apparently done. Because that's something that Prime Runners pretty much failed in.


That's a mere 250 generations. Not a whole lot of time in evolutionary terms, especially considering there never was any seriously dire evolutionary pressure on our species. Besides, homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis were, probably, genetically compatible beyond the production of mules, so the genetical differences between the two hominid species are pretty thin to begin with.

. They just can't die from an overdose. Apparently. Of course, this is one of the places where fluff and crunch collide, head-on, each moving at 150 mph.


The technology, obviously, because he already knows everything that's 'changing' about magic (and a hell of a lot more). And it changes monthly, not daily.


Seems you are not aware that Dunkelzahn killed himself to become a superspirit and basically save the world, right? He wrote the will and built a couple artifacts because he knew where he was heading. It's not like some mortal had a lucky hit on him or anything.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 11:18 AM

Agreed. Hessler, for instance, mainly enjoys sipping tea and watching Cricket games. Well, that and playing Merlin to the Pendragon. Most IE actually are about survival first, personal comforts/interests second, and influencing the world a very distant third. The ones who want to play sayajin mostly are the nutcases like Harlekin, Aina or Alachia. The only halfway sane high-profile IE seems to be Surehand.


No, he just channels the Emprah 2.0 occasionally.


Dead Great Dragons? Wow.


Okay. Am curious for what this will be. Asking because it's not mentioned in the upcoming products on the CGL page; but then again, so is Unfriendly Skies.


Sutherland, Tri-D, and ... DeVries? No, DeVries was in Threats, wasn't he?


No, but it might be like a Sims Expansion Package that has tons of totally useless crap and will probably screw with your game big time but that you have to buy because otherwise your DLC Aztec-style sacrifical tables and cubboards will not work properly. Lots of baggage for something little you nonetheless want.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 25 2011, 11:30 AM

This whole thread is 8 pages too long. Let it die, people.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 12:25 PM

Does that need much discussion? CGL has decided that writing a story is too much work, so they just take a bunch of random bits and pieces and call it a book. Half of the fun of campaign books is that they provide an actual plot which is enjoyable to read even if you don't run the module.

I'm also curious to how they want to present this release in-universe...hopefully not again as a collection of corp intel, because that just made no bloody sense at all.


PS:

OK, I though this was only introduced after Leonardo got retconned in Technobabel.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 25 2011, 01:26 PM

Devries was prime runners, but i have to concede I cna't remember many actual names from Prime Runners, some concepts yes but I'm a little short on actual names.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman May 25 2011, 02:18 PM

Haven't tried much, and those attempts I've made have shown that it doesn't like me. When I have some more time, I'll deal with it a little more; in the meantime, I'll just keep on keeping on.

Posted by: Slithery D May 25 2011, 02:34 PM

In SR2 spells were bought at a certain force and you couldn't cast higher; under those rules his spells were in that force range.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 02:45 PM

What, and let the Shedim get it? NEVER!

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 04:11 PM

I haven't, as well. How do you do it?

Minding that it's 2 pages long, the optimal length for it would be -6 pages, in your opinion?

Also, suddenly I like the iron cage idea...

Posted by: Stahlseele May 25 2011, 04:19 PM

Ah, okay, just curious ^^

Kinda like that O.o

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 05:35 PM

Uh, I mean, how do I quote a quote from someone else's post?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 05:55 PM

For me, it just entered on its 7th page. It's all about the number of posts per page that you set.

Posted by: Mäx May 25 2011, 07:53 PM

Thats pyramid quoting(assuming i understood you correctly) not multi quoting and thse forums seem to have an anti pyramid quotes code implemented in to the quote function.
So if you want to make a pyramid quote, just multi quote the original post and the one quoting it and then just cut&paste the first quote inside the second quote tags.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 08:09 PM

A chore...

Posted by: BookWyrm May 25 2011, 08:44 PM

*My* question is; is "Street Legends" going to be strictly PDF, or also include a print version?

Posted by: Bull May 25 2011, 08:45 PM

Print

Bull

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 08:52 PM

Big books usually have dead-tree format along with the digital one.
Only the shorter ones are digital format only.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 09:45 PM

Take into consideration this is from a guy that still won't let go of his Cyberdeck, people.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 25 2011, 11:00 PM

Bah, Decking on a celphone.

BAH!

DECKS RULE!!!

Posted by: Bull May 25 2011, 11:07 PM

You rule, Wak

But, also take it from someone who's also doing a minor bit of writing for the book. (I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to submit for, but... Missions, Convention work, and my day job really put a crimp on my available free time)

Bull

Posted by: Wakshaani May 25 2011, 11:20 PM

I need to get off my duff and get an invite back to the freelancers hub. Two submissions anded like lead balloons and I got seduced into another game while drowning my sorrows in diet cola. Diet, man! There's been a whole change of bodies out there since my last toe-dip in and I think I've got my confidence back enough to start hittng the ol' word processor again.

Now I just need to see if I can find the contact info again. Ugh.

Posted by: JM Hardy May 26 2011, 03:17 AM

What Bull said. Print. And full color print at that.

Jason H.

Posted by: Udoshi May 26 2011, 04:00 AM

Firefox, tabs, plus copy and paste. The middle mouseclick/control+leftclick trick is handy for this.

But that's mostly because i like being able to type out a response to each quote, and doing a ginormous post in one window involves scrolling up and down to see the whole picture.

Posted by: Grinder Jul 15 2011, 10:46 PM

A first preview is up: http://www.shadowrun4.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/CAT26209-StreetLegends_SAMPLE.pdf

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 11:11 PM

Well, Apparently no Fastjack, but at least we get Bull...

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 11:24 PM

Well we have a table of contents, que complaining about the content therof.

Serious Sticks is a street legend but Picador or Fastjack isn't?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 15 2011, 11:33 PM

Sticks?
Who?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 11:37 PM

He was AH's pet character, who conveniently knew about everything due to his tragic history as a chicago survivor / mafia runner/ mercenary/ knight errant patrollman/ adept /shadowrunner. I wish I was making this up.

Posted by: Bull Jul 15 2011, 11:46 PM

Be nice.

There were a LOT of character choices for this book, and only so much space. And when it was solicited, there wasn't a hard list of "THese characters MUST be in the book". It was solicited as "Which characters are you interested in writing?". The list is also not all runners. It's a mix of runners, fixers, corp big wigs, etc. Power Players in the Shadows, characters that can and do effect things. But they're not all Shadowrunners.

And as a note, while I'm tickled pink Bull is in the book, and I had a blast writing him up (And trying to find ways to make some of his more... outlandish history "fit" within canon Shadowrun), I didn't even submit a proposal for him. I had said he'd be fun to do, but I wasn't sure I'd have the time to do him up. But Jason sent me an email saying "Here's a contract, write him up!"

Fastjack should be in there. But... Fastjack is daunting. I'd be terrified to tackle him. Same goes with a fair number of runners out there.

That said, everyone knows there are missing some major names. And there's been a fair bit of discussion about ways to do more characters.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 11:48 PM

Thanks for Sharing Bull...

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 12:03 AM

I have been obligated to do many things over the course of my life be nice has never made the list, tell the truth however got preached a lot. I'm old enough to know know that some truths are subjective, this one in particular I just call it like I see it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 16 2011, 12:18 AM

So . . wait . . one of AH's creations was used in this? oy vey . .

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 12:48 AM

OK, I can get behind FastJack not being in the book. This guy specifically has a hobby of erasing his entire history (Right beside Tai Chi and proving he's the best 70+ Year Old Hacker/Decker/Hacker on the planet!), so trying to do any kind of write-up on him would only be done from his own personal point of view, which would be suspect at best. That said, he'd probably be better suited for spandex than Bull for sure.

But, Kellan Colt? Really? I was thinking it was best to forget that time?

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 12:57 AM

If you were Fastjack -- paranoid and canny as he's been shown to be, for the last 20+ years -- would you host a file about your background and abilities for your JackPoint buddies to read?

Posted by: Psikerlord Jul 16 2011, 01:46 AM

looking forward to this - prime runners was one of my favourite books. It gives GMs a better idea of what top level dudes can be like, which in turn helps the GM/PCs choose a power level preference for their game.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 01:52 AM

HEY! Just thought of something... With Bull's stats being included, we'll see how Cyberdecks deal with the new Wireless world!!!

Posted by: Bull Jul 16 2011, 02:21 AM

Bull's Stats have been in Missions several times now, actually. And, well... Bull has a commlink. A pretty kickass one too. He just keeps it inside his cyberdeck case.

I couldn't really work this into Street Legends, but it's been mentioned at least in passing in one or two Missions adventures. Bull doesn't keep his Commlink turned on most of the time. He's got a couple disposables that he uses when he needs to have a commlink active. WHen he does need to hack, or break out his "Deck", he jacks into it, then turns it on. He doesn't trust wireless. It's too easy to break wireless connections, and way too easy for the script kiddies who don;t actually know anything to hack with some cheap, off the shelf programs. He figures that as long as he's jacked into the "deck", anyone that wants to hack it has to go through him first.

Bull

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 02:36 AM

*Sighs* If I could run, I'd get the Missions, but I can't make myself contemplate the cost.

And, well, I'm full with Bull (The Character) on the Skript Kiddie thing.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 03:56 AM

There needs to be a break between what's good for the setting and good for the customer, plus you can do a lot of hand waving. Fastjack's file could be prefaced with. "Cap found this a few years ago while mining some restricted database or another" it's dated enougth that i'm more comfortable releasing it now and it wasn't completely accurate to begin with. Out of respect to the late captain i'm also not going to filter the conjecture in the comments but I'm also not going to confirm any of it either."

Then midway down through the commentary Slam-O can suggest that Fastjack is actually a sentient AI created by Jane in the Box at big D's request etc etc.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 04:04 AM

Or, you know, he could stick true to his character and kill everything, which is both good to the setting and good to the customer. It'd be a major break of concept for FastJack to suddenly open up about himself.

Remember, this is the guy THAT NO ONE HAS SEEN! The only evidence we have that he even leaves the house is that he has a daughter and a sister (Whose brats he took to Disney.). And even that can be circumspect considering the source.

Posted by: Grinder Jul 16 2011, 06:30 AM

Fixed.

Seriously, I'm not a fan of Writer-PCs appearing in that book.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 07:04 AM

RE: Fastjack

Or they could just do an entirely out of character piece on him to go with the one line "Nice Try" - FJ piece in the in character section ala the old threats book. Honestly we have sections of the metapot expounded on by chat conversations between immortal power players and dragons lifted by dissonant otaku but folks have trouble wrapping their heads about someone having a threat profile on the planets greatest living hacker?

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 07:17 AM

It's not so much that folks have trouble wrapping their head around something; it just makes for a reasonable in-universe explanation for why he's not there. The plain truth is there's more than twenty years of characters to try and fit in, and you can't fit all of them. Everyone is someone's favorite, so there's always going to be some fans disappointed about who got left out. Not every legend is in there, there was a desire for a few fresh faces amidst the more (in)famous ones, there was a need for a mixture of character types, etc, etc, etc.

"Because FastJack is too fucking paranoid to share a file about himself" is as good an in-game reason as any to justify why he's not there.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 07:30 AM

But again, the universe does not begin and end with Jackpoint but since Fastjack is billed as the greatest hacker on the planet he is exactly the kind of person that needs a profile even if it doesn't contain his attributes or the stats on comlink there aught to be some writeup on him rather then the bogyman of dumpshock.

Just my two nuyen.

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 07:38 AM

A write up without attributes or gear isn't really what Street Legends is all about. I mean, we're statting up fucking Lofwyr in it, and Fastjack was gonna get a pass and no statline or electronics? Not gonna happen.

*shrugs*

Like I said, we just couldn't fit in everyone we would've liked to fit in. It's not a slight against anyone who's not in the book, or anything. I'm not saying you're not allowed to be disappointed at his absence (there are a few other characters I'd have liked to be seen in there, myself), or anything...just trying to explain a little about why he's not in there, is all, and offering up an in-universe explanation to go along with it.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 08:42 AM

With the potential for Mary/Marty Sue's, I can certainly see why. But the preview seems to give Bull a pretty good background and history behind him, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt right now.

Of course, I'll smack him down all the harder if he turns out to be so. Just a head's up, Bull.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 09:06 AM

Well right, but someones point is "This character would never allow himself to be detailed on jackpoint." My point is even if it's not delivered via a Jackpoint entry Fastjack is more of an important "Street Legend" then Sticks, or Bull, Or Tommy Talon. I realize that not everyone can be covered but you call it street legends and then say "oh we're not going to cover this guy because he's so awesome nothing is written about him"

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 09:14 AM

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to offer the actual OOC reason and a convenient icing of IC reason, as well. We're obviously just sort of talking past each other at this point, so okay. *shrugs* Sorry you don't like the preview, sorry you don't like Fastjack's absence, and I hope you'll still enjoy the rest of the book.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 09:56 AM

Your right about us talking past each other and for that I apologize. I've just got done reading the preview completely and I am definitely interested in more, here's hoping there are copies to be had at Gencon.

Posted by: Tycho Jul 16 2011, 01:26 PM

I really don't care who is in this book, because if the authors are unable to provide correct stats or adequate stats, it really doesn't matter...

Rigger X: His stats are just bad, for a "legendary" rigger. And still there are technical mistakes in the skill ratings and conceptional mistakes like giving him a high Reaction, because this is just pointless for a jumped in rigger.
Overall its just stupid and useless (as expected), because obviously there nobody left who has the rules-knowledge of what they are doing (as expected)...

cya
Tycho

Posted by: ggodo Jul 16 2011, 01:37 PM

Yeah, I thought Rigger X looked a bit weak as well,, but I don't think we can calll him indicative of the rest of the book.

In slightly related news, when does artifacts unbound come out? Is there a date on that yet?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 01:41 PM

I'll go give it a look again but could it be possible that as a legendary rigger he wants to be prepared if he has to drive a vehicle without a rigger interface and therefore wants a high reaction. Or he doesn't want to get shot while out of his vehicle and therefore wants a high reaction? Is that really so hard to swallow?

Personally if i lived in the sixth world no matter what my reputation was if money wasn't an object i'd have the highest reaction I possibly could, pound for pound it is the keep you alive stat, more so in many ways then body.

Posted by: ggodo Jul 16 2011, 01:49 PM

Oh, yeah, I'm not against his reaction, I just thought that he'd be a bit more intimidating. he's got some high skills, though. Really high skills. How does he have 8 in skills? I will say that he has an impressive gear list, and that's what makes a rigger.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 16 2011, 02:56 PM

Unfortunately, that list isn't presented in anything like a readable format. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy, read and enjoy Street Legends, but that gear list makes my eyes glaze over.

Posted by: ggodo Jul 16 2011, 03:17 PM

Yeah, it took too much effort to understand. Impressive, but unusably formatted.

Posted by: Starglyte Jul 16 2011, 03:25 PM

When I saw the gear list for Rigger X, the first thing I thought of was the Exalted Dreams of the First Age Charm lists for the iconic Solars. (shudder).

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jul 16 2011, 03:29 PM

Quick note about that. When the call was put out there for Jackpoint members, early in SR4, it was made pretty clear that once a character was part of Jackpoint, it was open use for any of the freelancers and developers to further the story with in any particular way. Which was part of the reason I didn't pitch my "personal" character, Demonseed Elite (even though he did appear in some SR3 books).

I did pitch Fianchetto, though, and he made it into the Jackpoint cast list. But he was just an idea of mine, not anything I'd consider a personal character.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 16 2011, 03:30 PM

Is Exalted the new Rifts now? (not that White Wolf do not have a long history of insane NPCs)

Posted by: Marwynn Jul 16 2011, 04:45 PM

I hope it's not too late to reformat those lists. I don't list my character's gear like that. My head would 'splode.

If it has stats, we can kill it. And that's fine, these are legends but legends (and dragons) can still die. What happened to 99 Bottles?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2011, 05:14 PM

Heh,for example Ebon Dragons stat line from Return of the Scarlet Empress is little over 5 pages long

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 05:38 PM

... What? I was thirsty!

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 06:26 PM

Why, exactly, is the Artwork for Dodger on the FastJack's Rambling Introduction Thing page, and yet his name does not show in the ToC?


If you were a Shadowrunner, would you want to have your profile hosted like this?


The sensible way to deal with the SR4 Matrix as a shadowy person.


Can't help but agree here. My Rigger has a much better set of cyberware. Starting with a few suites designed according to Augmentation rules. And goddamn deltaware. And please reformat the gear list. It is just unreadable like that.

The Legendary rule could just be called MariSoo Rule, because that's what it is. Another rule from CGL worth a double facepalm.

Posted by: Neurosis Jul 16 2011, 07:57 PM

Could someone explain what's wrong with Rigger-X's stats? Apart from the gear list formatting, I get that part.

Like, why aren't riggers allowed to have high Reaction, etcetera?

Posted by: Bull Jul 16 2011, 08:04 PM

Dodger? Errr, nope. No Dodger. Look at the ears. Round.

Bull

Posted by: Tycho Jul 16 2011, 08:05 PM

It is just one of many things like rule mistakes, stats that are plain and simple way too bad for a "legendary" rigger etc.

And I didn't even read the "Gear" section because it just hurts the eye.

cya
Tycho

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jul 16 2011, 08:22 PM

I think you missed the part of the preview where it specifically noted that some characters aren't "legendary" because of their stats, but because of some intangible (AKA unstattable) traits.

Translation: Just because you're a legend, doesn't mean you're the absolute best in the biz of what you do. It just means you've stayed alive long enough and been lucky enough to make a significant name for yourself, either because of or despite your actual capabilities.

Besides, what did you expect? That they'd just max all relevant stats and give the best gear in the game to each legend? Seems rather pointless to do that, doesn't it?

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 08:26 PM

Huh. Beause the image when posted in the initial news bit was called "Dodger".


Yeah, making being a Mary Sue a quality is a great idea, right up there with Slow. As in, it's among the stupidest things I have seen in any gaming supplement yet.


Statting them? Yep, it does. And their Mary Sue quality makes it a lot worse.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2011, 08:29 PM

Where are you getting this "Mary Sue quality" think from?

Posted by: Bull Jul 16 2011, 08:35 PM

It's an optional rule. Don;t like it, don't use it. Simple enough.

As for "Dodger", I assume you're talking the Facebook thread where Jason posted the preview pic? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150208396844591&set=a.175243239590.122069.13520584590&type=1&theater

Dodger was a guess by a few people, but Jason confirmed that it was Puck.

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 08:37 PM

The preview. Have you read it, even?


This. Please note all the Legends in this book seem to have it. That's the "intangible quality" thing.


Yeah, and it will cause rules debates, like this stuff always does. Way to enrich gaming sessions.


Yup, I do. Okay, but I am certain the file was named Dodger. o it is Puck, and he is not dead. Pity.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 16 2011, 08:39 PM

Looking at the table of contents I don't recognize most of them. Are they mostly 4e era runners?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2011, 08:40 PM

Where the heck are you getting that from, there no mention of in that box.
It's in fact the second succestion,for those who want something more systematic, first being using optional cinematic rules from the core for everyone when a legend is around, witch is pretty much a complete opposite of Mary Sue characters.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jul 16 2011, 08:49 PM

Almost no PC will ever obtain that "quality", so it's pretty much never going to cause rules arguments at a table. The 500 karma would have to be earned in game, and if you wanted Legendary status ASAP, you'd have to STOP SPENDING karma after 400. Sure, you'll benefit in the long run. 10+ sessions later, anyway. Not sure about you, but karma is still really important to me to be able to spend even at that level. Especially if you happen to be playing an awakened or resonance based character. So I'd be hard pressed to intentionally try to withhold 100 karma that could be so damned useful on so many other things.

Do I miss 4+ = success in SR? Sure. Am I going to spend 100 karma to get it back on a single character that will likely become retired and thus not played very soon? Not a friggin' chance.

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 08:50 PM

It seems you don't understand how the rule is worded. This is a quality, something you can acquire or slap onto an NPC of your choice, not something that is there for everyone, by that rule.

Depends on how Karma is given in your games. And 10 sessions isn't all that long.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 16 2011, 08:52 PM

Rigger X made a bit more readable:
Athletics skill group 1
Automatics (Submachine Guns) 2 (+2)
Blades 3
Con (Impersonation) 2 (+2)
Dodge 2
Electronics skill group 3 (5)
Electronic Warfare 4 (6)
Etiquette (Corporate) 2 (+2)
Gunnery 4
Hacking (Drones) 4 (6) (+2)
Mechanics skill group 2 (4)
Navigation 3,
Perception 4
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 ( (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (7) (+2),
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 ( (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (6)
Stealth skill group 3

Maybe what the additional number in the brackets means is explained elsewhere in the book, but on a first look HUH?

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 08:53 PM

He has a couple nano- and genemods that add to skills based on intuition or reaction (AFB right now). I think it may be that.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2011, 08:57 PM

Yes the second optional rule succestion in that box is a 100 karma quality, the first one is to use some of the cinematic play optional rules for everybody when using a legendary NPC in the game.

I would guess that the first bracket is the modified skill rating counted by adding in the dice bonuses from his ware and the second one is the standard +2 from specialization.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 16 2011, 08:59 PM

I would in a second. Lets say you have a 12 die pool you now get 6 hits on average instead of 4, you would need to get that pool to around 18 to duplicate that.(which would likely cost 100 karma to do anyways, but this quality is for all your pools not just 1 of them) And if you cap at 20 die pools this is the only way to really pump successes past that 20 die pool.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jul 16 2011, 09:00 PM

10 sessions or more of no spending karma at all. From game inception to legendary would be 50ish sessions. So assuming you play every single week, it'd take you almost a year IRL to get enough karma to pull it off. My group *does* play every week, and we only get 5-7 karma per session (even with the higher attribute karma costs). So it'd take us almost double that. It's not worth it.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 16 2011, 09:02 PM

I do wonder if i should take a vacation from the whole SR fan-sphere...

Seems all we do these days are bitch about what could have been or should have been...

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 16 2011, 09:03 PM

That'd be my assumption to. Modified skill rating.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 16 2011, 09:11 PM

It does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?

Been building up since FanPro, I think... Might also be the nature of the Internet, "They changed it, now it sucks" when they adapted things to deal with the way technology moved that wasn't even thought of in the '80s and '90s.

I'm probably going to stick around, however. My spleen needs venting every now and then...

EDIT: The grain of sand that I take from the comments from people that say, "It should be this!" is that, well, have they done any writing for the fan-based projects that abound in DumpShock and languish due to lack of support? I know I've tried a bit myself, and there's also my fan fiction that's been well received. Try to build something before you tear down someone else's work.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 16 2011, 09:11 PM

Hmmm, for Logic-linked skills the second number does indeed align with the +2 Bonus from his Neocortical Nanites. But where does the flat +4 on all sorts of pilot skills come from?

My initial though was that the extra set of numbers was for GMs wanting to raise the stakes.

Posted by: Critias Jul 16 2011, 09:34 PM

No, Hermit, you're the one that's purposefully quoting only part of the rule, and either misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. It's an option. A suggestion. It specifically says so elsewhere in that very box, explaining that both of those rules are completely optional and available only to GMs and players who are interested in them.

If you want to crank it up to 11 when a "legendary" NPC shows up (either as an ally or enemy), cue the slow motion and some cool music, and have everyone start to get hits on 4+ instead of 5+ (mathematically increased the gap between mediocre and high die pools)? Knock yourself out. In fact, not only should you knock yourself out, but you now have a way to get the same mojo for player characters (since PCs are, after all, the heart and soul of a campaign, not NPCs).

If you don't want all that, it's a simple fix: don't use the optional rule. Ta da!

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 16 2011, 09:37 PM

Control rig, and control rig booster (2)

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 09:56 PM

Yeah, like the Resonance Difference. Doesn't make this a better rule.


So not useable supplements are now a feature, not a flaw?

Sorry, not meaning to piss on the entire PDF (haven't seen it so far), but this rule is not really adding anything except baggage and a way to make DMPC hyperpowerful (since, yes, PCs buying this might not be the worst problem and will just effectively remove the PC from any sensible game).

Besides, I hope these samples are from an early, un-proofed draft. Lots of errors in there.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 16 2011, 10:03 PM

You seem to have a really hard time understanding what the word optional rule means.

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 10:05 PM

You seem to assume optional rules are supposed to be crap.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 16 2011, 10:14 PM

I don't see a problem with this optional rule. It's at a high enough level that even if it does impact your game, most character will be running out of worthwhile options, and close to retiring.

Posted by: Aku Jul 16 2011, 10:22 PM

Thats all i gotta say

Posted by: Faelan Jul 16 2011, 10:24 PM

Personally I think it is an elegant solution to a contentious problem. With the optional rule you can use the stats provided in the book in pretty much any campaign, and get the desired result. You want Legends to be badder than bad, here you go. You want Legends to be overblown, use the raw stats. You want Legends to shine because of circumstances use cinematic rules. Want something in between mix them to the desired flavor.

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 10:34 PM

Rigger X is statted like a 150 Karma PC at best. Why not stat him yourself? Would fit your group's style better without pissing your players off with "better than you by nature" type PCs. I mean, look how many react to Harlequin, who does not even roll more successes than PC with the same pool by default.

I like the idea of fluffing out major players, but this rule is no workable remedy for the problem with statted NPCs.

And, well, stat blocks like this are extremly hard to read. Who at CGL has this mysterious but strong hatred of proper tables?

Posted by: Sengir Jul 16 2011, 10:45 PM

Would work by the numbers, but that would be a REALLY weird way of listing modifiers...those things don't add to skills or attributes, but are bonuses like a smartlink

In the good news, the artwork looks nice

Posted by: hermit Jul 16 2011, 10:50 PM

Yeah, that's the one improvement with recent releases.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 16 2011, 10:57 PM

It's a mixed bag, IMO, but for the most part, yeah, the art in Street Legends is really, really nice.

Not on the character I wrote up, mind you, but mostly it's really, really nice.

But I need to stay away from here to protect myself from the haters who haven't even seen the whole damn book yet, and yet have declared it utter shit. I don't understand those people, and they raise my blood pressure, so it's probably time to become scarce again. Civility has, apparently, finally died on the internet, at least here on DS.

Posted by: Tycho Jul 16 2011, 11:09 PM

As I mentioned before: This Ratings are mostly incorrect BS.

He has Rigger nannites 2 and Neural Amps 2, but the neural Amps only provide a Bonus to Logic based skills, so no bonus to all the pilot skills. (and they don't modify the skill, just bonus dice)

His correct pilot skills are:
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (4) (+2)
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (3)

This is what I am taking about, at least the shitty ratings should be correct, but even that is not the case...

cya
Tycho

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 16 2011, 11:33 PM

I seem to recall the same reaction to Cyberpunk v3, especially from certain people that had invested heavily in extending their own fanon from where 2020 left off.

It may be reaching a peak of sorts now that some of the people that took the most effort inserting fan service for the old hands of the community have left for other projects.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jul 16 2011, 11:35 PM

Hermit, your last two pages of post have a heavy coating of rancor. Ease off.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 01:40 AM

Wow... Seems like everyone gets 10+ Karma per Session... That must be nice. Now I know why everyone seems to dislike the Fluff, and why everyone wants to have higher rated Skill Caps... I have a character I played for a solid 2.5 years (about 130 Sessions or so) and I have YET to get 500+ Karma (Currently at 320'ish). Hmmmmm...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 01:42 AM

Very True... And yet, I always seem to get a warning when I say it... *Shrug*
Anyways... way to go Canray, I can't agree with you more (Besides, I like your stuff. Very well received on my end, at least)....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 01:45 AM

Out of curiousity, Patrick, whom did you work on, if I may ask?
And we are not all Haters here.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 17 2011, 02:01 AM

I wrote up Martin de Vries.

And I'm enormously glad to hear it.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 17 2011, 02:14 AM

I'm not so much a hater as cranky.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 17 2011, 02:16 AM

We all have those days. It seems, here in Canada, at least to each other, those days come more and more, though...

Posted by: toturi Jul 17 2011, 02:22 AM

Just so we all know who to shoot if it turns out bad.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 17 2011, 02:24 AM

Just be happy someone is saying something about him, and not just an off-hand comment.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 02:38 AM

Awesome...

Looking forward to getting this book. It will be in PDF, right? As much as I would like to have a Dead Tree version, finances require a PDF, at least for now.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 17 2011, 03:24 AM

Yeah, the PDF is supposed to be out Real Soon Now. The dead tree format should be out at GenCon.

Posted by: Critias Jul 17 2011, 03:39 AM

One of these quotes is not like the other...

There are two rules in here, that you seem to be lumping together into one in order to cast them both in the worst possible light.

1) When a street legend is active in your campaign, everyone rolls hits on a 4+. Not just the legendary character, but everyone. Emeril shouts BAM and your whole campaign kicks it up a notch, getting a little more cinematic and over-the-top, inflating the difference between hum-drum security schmucks' die pools and over-the-top action superstars (your PCs, not just the NPC in question, should be stealing the limelight under this rule). This provides a metagame "boost" and a sense of excitement and the-stuff-legends-are-made-of into your campaign, so that players are psyched to be running alongside (or against!) one of the Sixth World's big names.

2) As a separate rule, players can eventually achieve a sort of legendary status themselves, if you're in a high powered campaign and they've got the karma to spend. If someone has the points and your campaign opts to use this rule, any PC that wants to can get their very own epic level knack, and show they've hit the big leagues by being the coolest of the cool and scoring hits on a 4+.

The NPC version grants the ability to entire scenes at a time, and is a purely metagame conceit to ramp up the level of cinematic fun if the inclusion of a legendary character calls for it. The PC version is a way for a given player character to just be that awesome all the time. Both are optional, but not exactly equal. If a legendary NPC is around, your PCs reap the benefit of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). If it's a PC that's shelled out the karma for the rule, that PC reaps the benefits of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). Either way, it's not something that's unique to "overpowered" and "broken" "Mary Sue" NPCs.

And, again? Both are clearly stated as being suggestions for high-octane over-the-top campaigns, and if you don't want to use them, don't use them. Their inclusion shouldn't be making the whole supplement "not useable," and if it is I think that's a problem with you, and not the supplement.

It's a fucking game. What's more, despite late SR3 and early SR4 conceits to the contrary, Shadowrun as a whole shouldn't be taken seriously enough that it should even be called a "sensible game," any more than any RPG should. Personally? It's a ridiculous, silly, amazing game about elves and wizards and computers and orks and submachineguns and stompy robots and mirror shades all at once; rolling handfuls of dice and being awesome is the only thing to really worry about, in the greater scheme of things. If rolling even bigger handfuls of dice and being even more awesome, alongside characters known from novels and sourcebooks, is your thing? Rock out, buy the book, get a better handle on some metaplot and some infamous characters, and have fun.

If that's not your thing, and you prefer a "sensible game," then fine, but that doesn't make it a bad book. The fact you won't be using it doesn't mean it's not useable (and for the record I mean the generic "you," here, not necessarily Hermit as an individual). Different folks have always glommed onto different aspects of Shadowrun, loving or hating various NPCs (or ignoring them completely), loving, hating or ignoring various slices of the metaplot, loving, hating, or ignoring various parts of the setting...that's just the nature of the beast, particularly when it's a beast with 20+ years of baggage.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 17 2011, 03:45 AM

Hermit, you understand that deltaware aquisition isn't supposed to be a formula right? It's not a "Get X karma, proceed to deltaware clinic" kind of game world. It is quite believable if they stay true to the setting that even many legendary runners won't have deltaware, because deltaware should always involve selling your soul to somebody. Custom cyberware suites are likewise a weird grey area, because honestly I've never allowed them and I've never played with a GM who does.


I know it's hard to come to grips with but legendary doesn't always have to mean twinked. It can,but it's hardly the expected norm.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 17 2011, 04:02 AM

The preview doesn't really tell me quite enough - the big question is whether or not they will bite the bullet, and go ahead and give stats to things like immortal elves and great dragons. With all of the hard limits built in the game, with a finite number of potential modifiers, beyond which you can not go, there is no reason not to have stats for everything in the game.

And don't tell me "Well, I'm worried they won't be so tough in a high-powered campaign." A high-powered campaign has the same limits as everyone else, unless the GM is using house rules, in which case, either it is the kind of campaign where the PCs do fight great dragons and such, or the GM can fiddle with the base stats to bring them up to his campaign's inflated level.

But the movers and shakers need some hard numbers, already. Simply making them invincible by GM (or authorial) fiat is a cop-out.

Great dragons and immortal elves should survive by being cunning, planning for contingencies, working through intermediaries a lot, and having lots of resources and connections. But shadowrunners and hit squads should still be something they take precautions for, not something they effortlessly no-sell.

I like that legends, while tough, might not have the absolute highest dice pools. They are legends because they lived long enough to become legends. They should have more breadth of skill than a starting PC, some hard-to-acquire gear, good Attributes all around (unless a particular dumpstat has become their "heroic weakness"), and, most importantly, connections. A legendary face might still not roll as many dice as a player's dryad adept with tailored pheromones, but should still usually be able to accomplish more by having lots of contacts, speaking five different languages, personally knowing the mayor, and what have you.

A few things I didn't like. The picture of Bull was nice, and how I think most orks should look like. But contrast that with the female "ork" in the other picture. What the frag? That thing has a face like a damn warthog! That's nearly always been one of Shadowrun's major weaknesses, art-wise; no consistency in the depictions of orks and trolls. Half of them look more like decaying radioactive mutants than metahumans. I think "How the hell does this critter even close his mouth without biting his lips off?". It's more of a shame with that picture, though, because it was otherwise well-rendered.

The other thing I didn't like was the notion, put forward once again, that if you make off with the corporation's multi-million prototype, no hard feelings, but if you shoot a few of the rent-a-thugs, then all hell's gonna break loose on you. I can see the company taking it more personally if you blow up buildings, slaughter office workers, and loot anything that's not nailed down, but shooting it out with the guards is a frickin' staple of the game. Honestly, reading parts of Bull's background, I could only think "Wow, sounds like a crappy, vindictive GM." Maybe the actual game was different, but from nothing but what is presented here, it sounds a bit contrived that every time the group killed someone, they had someone knocking on their door for vengeance. I'm not saying runners shouldn't run into consequences, but it should happen every once in a while, not always.

Despite the negatives, it still looks like it could potentially be a good book. Some very good writing in places, and nothing that really raises any red flags (I'm glad that "legendary" rule is optional, though, because I really don't care for it that much).

Posted by: CanRay Jul 17 2011, 04:05 AM

So, we're agreed, wait until the PDF comes out to judge it in full, not based on what the little preview we've seen so far, eh?

Posted by: Critias Jul 17 2011, 04:10 AM

Yes. A hundred times yes, and it's a shame if the preview is somehow unclear on that.

Lofwyr and Lugh Surehand, for instance (to get you one great dragon and one IE), both have full write-ups in here, stats and all. Everyone that's got a mini-chapter in there is someone that comes with several pages of background information, and a full character sheet. There are stats given for everyone listed in that preview. The bullet is bitten.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 17 2011, 06:22 AM

@Legendary Rules
first Reactions here in Germany (both from Forums and in my own Games) from "Showing the Bird"(it means its a Stupid Idea)to Laughing
to "not in My Games,Never !! "
Me personally,I know that this rule will never ,ever effect one of my Games, so (for me) it's totally useless....
And to be honest; If I'm playing/GMing at a convention and one Player would show me such a legendary Char I would immediately know he's a Munchkin
@Rigger X Skills
So If the Skills are wrong, I hope that CGL corrects it before printing Street Legends

HokaHey
Medicineman

Posted by: Grinder Jul 17 2011, 07:09 AM

Incorrect. And you know it.

Posted by: Grinder Jul 17 2011, 07:11 AM

Until the next preview is up or the book can be purchased, this thread is locked. Doesn't make much sense to let the "discussion" style of the last 30+ postings continue.