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Posted by: Stormdrake May 25 2011, 02:35 PM

Am expanding on the metaplot for my game and am trying to remember some of the truly deserving amoungst Shadowruns evil(?) shadow dwellers. Richard Villiers comes to mind as does the cabal of vampires running around Europe (I forget what they are calling themselves). Can anyone suggest others?

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 25 2011, 02:40 PM

The vampires are the Ordo Maximus. I vaguely recall Augmentation mentioning they'd fallen on hard times due to GD intrigue though.

You should take a look at Threats and Threats II maybe?

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 02:49 PM

If we put a bullet into the head of every evil NPC that was in Shadowrun, we'd run out of ammo damned quick, and Ares stock would soar at purchasing new stock for what we're expected to need.

There's also the fact that a lot of the people you're talking about would only see a bullet to the head as an inconvenience.

Finally, as we found out, Richard Villiers isn't evil, he's just a Corporate Suit Extraordinaire. And a douchebag.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 02:54 PM

- Puck
- Netcat
- Mr Cline
- Larry Zincan
- Buttercup
- Hestaby
- Ghostwalker
- Any and all AI
- Damien Knight
- Andrea Colloton
- everybody working at GENOM Corp. of Basels, middle management and up
- Alachia
- /dev/grrl

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 03:17 PM

Netcat, really? You'd cap a pregnant woman/new mother. Cold, Hermit, damned cold!

Posted by: Stormdrake May 25 2011, 04:47 PM

I don't know about Hermit but as Rimmer once said "I would gladly shoot him in his sleep if I could".

Any one remember what the group of nuts who wanted to overthrow the UCAS and CAS governments and then declair war on the NAN nations was called?

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 04:53 PM

Moral decisions, anyone?

Also, she's certainly evil, pregnancy or not.


New Revolution. And they tried to overthrow the Sioux too. That's why Colloton is on my list, because she is among their leaders.

Posted by: BishopMcQ May 25 2011, 05:07 PM

Out of curiousity, what put NetCat into the truly Evil, instead of part of the lesser forms of filth that make up most shadowrunners?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 05:32 PM

I wouldn't label her Evil. But possibly a pawn of something bigger.
Then again, I'm on Clockwork on this. All TM's should be put to the wall and gain a leaded kiss and the AI's should all be deleted as soon as possible.

Now, Kane is truly a son of a female dog...

Posted by: Wakshaani May 25 2011, 05:57 PM

What's the beef with Villers? I'd have thought Damian Knight would be higher on people's lists than Vilers, who ... doesn't really get talked about all that much.

He was a third of Fuchi, pulled out to make his own corp, wound up crying as he had to sell off big chunks of it so he wasn't a full-on CEO like he wanted anymore, and, since then, has just, you know, done CEO things. He isn't launching kittens out of cannons or offering teenaged Orks ten grand if they'll undergo sterilization proceedures or the like.

Then again, I'm stunned to see Larry Zincan on somebody's list as well.

Can we get some specifics on why these people are loathed?

Posted by: Irion May 25 2011, 06:01 PM

I neve got the impression that Netcat was meant to be evil.
On the other hand the "moral" compass of some fiction writers is "strange" to say the least.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 06:16 PM

I'm also curious why "any and all AI" is "evil". Surely a suddenly awoken Pilot-origin program whose driving nature is to make Gridguide work better isn't evil.

Edit: I also question why the entirety of the New Revolution is "evil", or at least any more evil than anyone, anywhere, which has an ideology. Individual members and their actions notwithstanding, they do not seem particularly more evil than any other revolutionary group.

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 06:44 PM

You do realize he just changed the direction his blimp was headed and is going to "Discuss" things with you.

http://youtu.be/komvFIGYBYM

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 06:59 PM

Deus comes to mind. And that other AI who took over a military satelite with WMD, forget his name.
Now, you might say that th whole Deus crysis was put under the carpet but people talk and eventually it becomes a conspiracy theory with a LOT of thing that actually makes it believable.
Besides, Free Spirits have more chance to correlate with us than an Artificial Intelligence.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 06:59 PM

In Shadowrun, the question is not "who deserves a bullet". It's "who doesn't?"

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 07:03 PM

She's the new Pax.


Since the Singularity is effectively the final occurrence in Neuromancer, where Neuromute explodes because it downloads an .exe from alpha Centauri, runs it and explodes, all the small AI are shards of Deus. So yes, an awakening pilot program effectively is a pilot program that is controlled by a part of Deus. That makes them evil. All of them.


And write school research papers about it. So much for swept under the carpet.


By general convention in estern culture, fascism is more evil than other evil ideologies.

Posted by: Irion May 25 2011, 07:06 PM

@Brazilian_Shinobi

Thats like saying it would have been possible for the US to talk 9 11 down. You can't do shit like that today. To the beginning of the centurie yes. No problem.
But with sellphones with video?
And now imagine a World where a lot of people got this shit in their brain/eyes.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 07:09 PM

Far as I remember, Pax is a Deus otaku, a double traitor, and a dissonant.
Netcat is none of those, is she?

Uh, any source on current-gen AIs having anything to do with the Great AIs, except for speculation? Besides, why Deus, of the trinity?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 07:14 PM

The Renraku Arcoloy was closed for what, almost two years? There wasn't the wireless matrix yet. So, you had to jack in somewhere and try to contact the outside world. I'm pretty sure Deus was monitoring all the possible ways of comunicating with the outside world, if not closing every single possibility from the start.

Also, 9/11 was in the open for anyone to see. We are talking about a building the size of a small neighborhood who locked out from the outside. People didn't know what happened until UCAS sent the Army to liberate it. And yes, it was said from the beggining that the truth never came out. /dev/ grrl write a school paper about it just gets me irritated, so forgive me if I try to forget that EVERY time it is mentioned.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 07:14 PM

She was her friend.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 07:15 PM

Pax started out as an Otaku who willingly joined with Deus. She became dissonant when she started fading, and became a double traitor at the same time. Netcat serves the Deus Pragon and is "inhuman and alien" in her thoghts according to the description of the character in the shadowtalkers list. Do the math.


Deus won the about compiling over Megaera. And there were hints about *something* entering programs and awakening them. Also, Deus now is a Paragon.


Wireless Matrix existed since 2059 (Matrix sourcebook). AR wasn'T there yet. Copious cellphones have been with the setting ever since the first rulebook.


Uhm, it's a building 1 km high and around 1 km at each side of the base. It's like the Burj Chalifa covering half of outhern Manhattan. That's not small. You could put several WTC towers into that building.


Totally pisses me off too, but .... there were TV shows about the matter, there was a reality show in the Arcology (must've been like Aperture Science TV), there were numerous references to it pre-SR4, and even with Emergence's clusterfuck of a retcon there's the monument to the victims. I truly hate to say it, but the /dev/brat bit makes more sense than the it's all seekrit part.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 07:28 PM

Guide to understanding Hermit:
1.) Pick arbitrary set of characters- TMs, Ghouls, non-awakened non-emerged humans with average stats, you name it
2.) Interpret each and every line of rules text for your chosen set in the most broken and munchkin-ish way possible
3.) Interpret each and every line of fluff text for your chosen set in a way which makes them seem like Hitlers evil twin. All of them, and just for the heck of it
4.) Complain that the rules are broken and the characters so evil that they should be put down on sight
4.1) Any other interpretation of the rules means that the writer has no clue or is a shill for CGL

PS:

Eh, Prime Runners is out already? Together with Unwired Anniversary Ed., which introduced a new paragon? Good to know...

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 07:42 PM

Guide to understanding Sengir:
1) watch him troll you.
2) report post.


Well, find out what Deus' Icon in the Matrix is, and then compare to the existing Paragons. Be surprised ...

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 08:00 PM

I beg your pardon, where can I find info on that "Deus paragon"?

He never did. Neither was he able to defeat Mirage. The whole thing went down the drain when the three were still in the middle of the fight.
So, it could be Mirage, for all I can tell. I like Mirage.

Posted by: Seriphen May 25 2011, 08:07 PM

When reading the OP, this is the first thought I had. If you look hard enough at any of the characters in Shadowrun its starts to appear this way. It depends on what viewpoint you want to take on their actions. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 08:08 PM

Uh, is the Great Connection Deus? The World Tree? Money Trie AIs? By your assumption alone, all fit equally well - and all the Viking cults throughout the history are Deus worshipers, too.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 08:10 PM

The World Tree. That is Deus's Icon. The Great Connection and 01 sound like fragments too. Possibly, all Paragons are.

I was going for the tree though, for being the most obvious.

Posted by: Fatum May 25 2011, 08:13 PM

That seems rather baseless. A world tree is a symbol in human culture since time immemorial - I see no reason for this particular one to necessarily be Deus. And nothing in its description hints it is, too.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 08:13 PM

Oh noes, a tree in something CompSci-related - that can of course only mean one thing!!!

World Tree is the paragon matching the "Great Connectivity" realm, and its followers believe in "universal distribution of information and knowledge", i.e. the classic crypto-anarchist angle. Doesn't really sound like an aspiring matrix god...

PS: I'd also suggest to be very careful around this site...maybe the HTML document tree is trying to take over the world...

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 08:19 PM

Sure, it could also be bad writing and ignoring/not knowing that Deus used the exact same metaphor, except back then the people who had written Brainscan were still in the writers' pool. Why should they forget their own writing? Because it does not suit you if that's intentional?

And can you make a post without baiting or trolling, or are you that far gone already?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 08:49 PM

And what guarantee we have that Deus wouldn't be monitoring them?



I guess it is a problem of translation. The only word I can find for a small region of a town is neighborhood (correlating to the portuguese 'bairro'). A small 'bairro' would actually be 1 km₂



Source about these. Not that I'm doubting you, just want see how exactly it is portrayed.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 08:50 PM

So if a a fundamental concept of both computer science and many mythologies has been used once it must no longer be used in any other context or it's bad writing? I await your rant about the great number of characters who use a classic UMS icon by tomorrow.


Getroffene Hunde...

Posted by: Grinder May 25 2011, 08:52 PM

Sengir, hermit: Stop it. Right now.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 25 2011, 08:54 PM

Thought I'd just give a shout out to Gov. Brackhaven and his uncle real quick. Even putting aside the Humanis thing (which is a biggy), they're corp lap dogs and being in bed with Ares & Knight Errant is hella sketchy. Maybe they're not up there in the absurdly evil category when compared to some of the crazier metaplot NPCs, but what they lack in power and chutzpah they make up for by being complete and utter tools.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 09:01 PM

Yeah, Brackhaven was a big scumball.

While that's an INTERESTING interpretation, that's in no way supported concretely by canon. So I would say that AI could possibly be evil, but there's no evidence to indicate they *are* evil. It's analagous to saying "Anyone who has cyberware COULD ALSO be controlled by the cyberware manufacturer's secret control protocols that we've never seen, so everyone with cyberware is evil" or perhaps "All humans are evil because they are descended of Adam, and he was guilty of sin in the eyes of god, and cast from the garden of eden." I.E. an interesting direction, but only an interpretation of certain assumptions, and factually baseless as far as I'm concerned.

Amorality is a facet of actual behavior, not potential behavior. I potentially could murder someone. This does not make me evil or amoral, however.

Edit: As for the New Revolution, I wasn't aware they were facist. I thought they only wished to restore the United States as a nation?

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 25 2011, 09:20 PM

It was hard not to notice the Shutdown. The governor of the Seattle Metroplex was locked inside when it happened, and it was liberated by the army. Also, it was a major shopping/entertainment/economical hub. When it shuts down for two years, people notice.

So, some more particularly deserving people not yet mentioned...
* The IEs, especially the ones who set up the Tirs as neomedieval fascist-commie feudal "paradises".
* The Aztechnology shareholders and higher-ups
* Whoever really runs Horizon?
* Aden (he did exterminate an entire major city in a fit of pique, after all)

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 09:24 PM

Which AI so far has not at least been hinted at having dangerous and hostile motives, between the mass murderers and human torture experimenters like Mirage (Psychotrope), Deus, Sojourner and that child-to-murder manipulation thing from Emergence, and all the other rogue AI, apart from the taxicab in NYC?


They also were heavily military focused and wanted a society where the military trumps everything, which is exactly what the Duce was into.


There're around 3 billion people who believe this to some extent (with the vast majority thinking a carpenter from Palestine then took the evil on them and was crucified for it). But yes, it is not stone cold fact. It's a likely interpretation, though. Likely enough for me to put them on my list.

Which still is my list, not Sengir's or anyone else's, so I can damn well put everyone I want on it. If I wanted Pandora on it because I hate Star Wars with a passion (which I don't, for the record), I could do that.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 09:41 PM

Any AI that is a PC, for one. There's no need to take a flaw that compels you to be amoral, or even lose control of your character if Deus wills it. Additionally, the Jack B Nimble'd AIs that have been created haven't evidenced any compulsory amorality, though in many cases they've evidenced insanity by dint of being code-corrupted. The fact that there isn't information on them is kind of what I mean: without information on random AIs, we can't simply assume they are all evil. Thousands or tens of thousands of evil AIs roaming the matrix is something that would bear mentioning.



Ahh, I must have missed that. I haven't looked at them in a long time.



I think we have differing definitions of "likely", here.

I realize it's your list, yes. But without explanation, you have to expect that people will want you to say a bit more. I could make a list of evil NPCs that need a bullet, and list out, "All Guardian Spirits, the president of the Trans-Polar Aleut Nation, and Maria Mercurial", and people would probably want to know *why*.

Posted by: Sengir May 25 2011, 09:47 PM

Sure, the shutdown itself was noticed. The question is, how much do people know about the reasons behind it and the connections to the Crash 2.0?

As for guys who deserve it...Humanis always are good targets if you need to sight in your new grenade launcher

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 09:47 PM

Succinctly put.

Come on, folks. The anti-social, borderline sociopathic, Neo-Anarchistic Individuals who shoot folks in the face for money are the HEROES of the story. Remember that.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi May 25 2011, 09:51 PM

Not heroes, only not the villains.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 09:53 PM

And that's the solid truth of the matter.

Honestly, I've taken "Evil" in the context of this thread to mean "So vile that they actually stand out amongst the millions of people who are merely horrible."

Posted by: CanRay May 25 2011, 09:55 PM

It's cyberpunk. The difference being?

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 10:07 PM

Well, there are rules for playing soul-eating monsters and toxic/twisted mages/adepts, so "just because it's a PC does not mean it can't be evil" really doesn't fly with SR. Ad with Free Spirit characters you have a class of characters that theoretically can be taken over and subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by any reasonably competent magican who is at least a grade 1 initiate, by way of astrally questing. Without having to take any flaw. SR4 went down that path, so "because it'S a PC that's impossible" is not valid anymore.


Likely.

I see this from a meta perspective as well as ingame, and both seem to me to point towards the fracturing of the Singularity due to a virus (from Alpha Centauri in the Sprawl serien; from Winternight in SR) more than to anywhere else. TThe narrative in a shared universe with easily 30 authors is anything but coherent, of course, so YMMV.


And then you get an answer. You don't have to agree.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 10:32 PM

Yeah, but in most of those cases, they call out, "Hey, these are soul-sucking monsters! They are vile creatures! You should know that before hand!"

As for the free spirits, that doesn't make the free spirits evil. It makes them dangerous if their name gets out. Anybody can be subdued and forced to do all kinds of things by a competent magician, with Control Thoughts, honestly.

Posted by: hermit May 25 2011, 10:40 PM

Some people would now argue you only limit everyone's ability to play vampires and their ilk that way, which is totally mean and evil. Or you could argue that, if some PC options are inherently evil (ot necessarily the mutant virus fraction, but the twisted way/toxic mages) why can't others be?


It doesn't, but it makes them liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it." If one character class always has this sword of damocles above their heads, why not another, too?


That spell gives you at least a chance to fight back, burn edge and whatnot, and the mage needs to be in LOS to cast it on you. It can happen anytime, by anyone who has ever seen or read of the free spirit, and without any chance to fight back, with a metaquest.

Posted by: Adarael May 25 2011, 10:43 PM

Oh, I quite agree. I was simply drawing the distinction that it doesn't necessarily make a character *evil* to have a drawback like that, merely dangerous.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 25 2011, 11:10 PM

Well, Shadowrun is a cyberpunk environment, and Cyberpunk, believe it or not, draws heavily from Noir.

Which rings out an old quote.

"In normal stories, the protagonist is a hero ... he's the right guy who does the right thing at the right time. In noir, one of those is wrong."

And I *love* that.

Shadowrun's filled with people who aren't good guys ... but they're just good enough.

Posted by: Irion May 25 2011, 11:34 PM

Well, but this might not be one of the best ideas. I mean you enter the realm of the spirit. Don't know how they might defend it.
It should not be easy to invade the domain of a spirit of force 6 or higher.
The guys working with insect spirits on the metaplance have magic 11 or higher.

Posted by: Whipstitch May 26 2011, 12:21 AM

Yep, it was a combination of those two thoughts that led to me nominating the Brackhaven clan for Ex-Ex therapy. I mean, really, the body snatchers from astral spaaaaaaaace are way more dangerous than Brackhaven in absolute terms what with the whole Ibn Eisa and hating all life thing, but odds are they won't inspire the same amount of contempt from your players that you can extract from a good ol' fashioned crooked politician. And contempt is what you need if you really want your players to get their hate on before they cap the villain of the week.

Posted by: Wakshaani May 26 2011, 12:28 AM

Oh, I adore me some Brackhaven. Heck, I voted for him!

That right there is a *quality* villain. He's understandable, easy to hate, but thinks of himself as the good guy ... all the elemnets that you need!

Add in hypocritical backstory (He's taking the name of a man's Ork child!) and people just start CHOMPING for him to die.

And now he's governor of Seattle. Whee!

Posted by: Whipstitch May 26 2011, 12:38 AM

Yeah, if I were to make this list it'd ideally be filled with guys that get the PCs to say things like "Hey, we shot somebody who deserved it!" or "That guy was a real asshole."

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 26 2011, 12:56 AM

It is unfortunate that so many people in the world have chosen violence as the only medium they will speak in.
It is fortunate that I am so much better at violence then so many of them. - Lifeseeker, Ork Martial Artist and Medic

Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 01:31 AM

"You can get more things with kind words and a team of Shadowrunners than you can with kind words alone." - Jon "Money" Johnson, 2055, upon leaving his Megacorporation at the end of his contract as a Mr. Johnson.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 05:31 AM

The NPC does a metaquest by the hard&fast rules, which does include a chance of failure. However, there is nothing, absolutly nothing, by the rules, that the PC can do.

Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 05:39 AM

What is it about the AI designed to protect and aid a bunch of people having dangerous and hostile motives?

Uh, except the rules for blood mages, toxics and such mark them as insane and inherently evil clearly. Same goes for Free Spirits - the rules are out there for all to see. Nowhere is it said in canon sources, however, that the AIs are inherently evil, far as I am aware. And I repeat: Deus did not reach godhood, his plan failed, there's no solid reason to assume everything tree-shaped in the matrix is Deus. If you're willing to go down that path, the AIs can channel any of the Greats, and there's nothing on them being inherently evil any more than humans.

Because they're not marked as such? You know, just an idea - the inherently evil options are marked as being inherently evil.

Every character is liable to "lose control of your character if [that mage] wills it", and a metaquest is more difficult than casting a single spell, without doubt.
Besides, can't you as a free spirit defend your metaplane domain?

Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 05:53 AM

'Bout the same way a Street Sami protects his personal cardboard box with his Ares Predator. You can only keep what you can hold onto.

Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 06:25 AM

There is not much an PC can do in general if you send a bunch of Magic 11 guys after him, if he is only out of chargen.


There aro no hard rules about it.


Thats the only thing I could find. And six challenges does not sound something you can do easy. (As a matter of fact, a session has often less scence)

But the free spirit rules are fucked up anyway. If you use them a player might just get a heck of pacts and a good lists of contacts having a Karma income with three digits a month.

Yes, a GM might abuse this possibility. But thats true for everything. Every runner getting some cyberware installed by a streetdoc with a loyalty less than 4 could turn up with a cortex bomb. So what?
The spirit has just to check in(in his metaplance) once or twice every day or so. Since I guess the test will take a fair amount of time.
Than he might butcher them on his "home ground".

Yes, you have no possibility to defend yourself. As you have non if a bunch of magic 11 mages try to murder you in your sleep.

On topic though:
I guess for a dystopia the more fitting question would be: Who is asking for a bullet?
I guess you could say Lofyr deserves a bullet. But it would only make im ask for ketshup.

@Brazilian_Shinobi

As did for 9/11. Only a few people know the command structure of Al Kaida. How the guys were recruited exactly. How the planes were taken over.
And a lot of other details rest in the dark. If you get yourself to investigate it you will learn more about it.
I mean there sure worked hundreds of people on this (getting to know what exactly happened) there can only be a hand full having most of the facts. Just due to the quantity of information. (And some of those are even a matter of national/international security)

Same would be with Arcologie. Yes, the complete story won't be released. But the most common stuff will be out.
It is not that easy to get a coverstory for something that big. (You may hide some frindly fire in a war. But even this is something not so easy to do if you plan to do it for some years. Because people will talk.
What should you feed to the public? It was a free spirit? A single deranged man?

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 07:35 AM

Nope.


Vampires and the other (auto)cannibal PC options are not marked as evil, since they evidently were there to appeal to the oWoD fans. Neither are twisted way/Toxic mages marked as such, there's just a bunch of "you can allow them a PCs but know what you get into with this" flags for all I remember. Shadowrun doesn't suport 'inherently evil' any more than Dark Heresy does (where you can play cultists and worship the Ruinous Powers).


Which AI do you mean? Mirage? Who trapped hundreds of thousands in the Matrix to experiment on their brains? Very helpful and protective.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 26 2011, 08:11 AM

Mirage never did this FYI.

Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 08:27 AM

@hermit

Why not?
A spirit may return to his metaplain at any time. And if you are on the same plain you might get some ass kicking done.


Yeah, and just hope you do not run into a GM who likes to rule with a "realistic world".

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 09:24 AM

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Psychotrope.


Sure, but it's not like a bell rings when someone is wreaking havoc on it'S plane (nothing in the rules covers that, at least, because apparently nobody writing those rules thought of the first aproach of most players when tangling with a Free Spirit). I'm not saying there should be no way, but going by the rules there is none.

Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 09:28 AM

Right, they just need to feed on metahuman blood/flesh/whatever. Not evil in any way, totally tame.

So, saying they are inherently perverse, hostile to any and all metahuman life and make exemplar villains is not enough for you as a warning? Should they have out up a page-wide sign about them being evil or what?

DH describes Chaos worship in no uncertain terms: corruption, insanity and damnation, forever straying from the Emperor's light. It makes no qualms labelling it as inherently evil and utterly self-destructive in the end.

Yep, him. Haven't seen that bit on hundreds of thousands in the fluff, source?

...since that article has nothing about that.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 09:37 AM

Souls. Yeah, harmless.


You are saying one kind of inherently hostile to metahumans PC is worse than others. I think they're all the same level of bad news.


Uhm, you haven't read the novel Psychotrope, have you?

The novel Psychotrope details how thousands of Matrix users - everyone in the Seattle grid - are put through the AI's little show of horrors, which makes most go insane and some become "adult Otaku". Please note how this was picked up later again with the Crash, and befroe that, Deus in Brainscan.

Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 09:49 AM

@hermit

So what?
You got to check every now and then.
It is not like such a quest would be over in 5 minutes. More 5 days.


Yeah. Mirage followed orders given.
Yeah, I mean how stupid is it to give someone the order to fire up the matrix equivalent of nuclear warheads if X happens, then but him in a coma and displace him and the whole missle side. Yeah, thats smart.

So the only thing to be said about Mirage is she is lawful or was.
But there is no evidence of beeing evil.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 09:51 AM

Still is a place for copious house ruling and GM's decisions, since the game just forgot all about this being possible. But yes, you absolutly should do that.

Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 09:55 AM

Nope, I haven't read it. The wiki articles make the results look rather positive, and

is hardly consistent with
And this is why I don't agree to accept the novels as a part of the fluff. Even if they have luscious elven nipples.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 10:00 AM

But the action in that novel is canon fluff, live with it. All the adult otaku appeared again (one, Red Wraith, even pops up in Spy Games), and Brainscan and System Failure heavily depend on the events in that novel. You can ignore some of the novels, but some like Psychotrope, Secrets of Power, The Burning Time and Dragonheart are just too entrenched in Sourcebook fluff to be cast aside (nipples or no nipples).

Besides, the results of the experimentation in weapons technology, aviation and nuclear weapons in WW2 are pretty positive too, all in all. Does that make the war any more positive, or the dead any less dead? Ends and means.

Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 10:16 AM

Yeah. Because progress is so much faster in times of war.
The only war really speeding development would have been the cold one.
But WW2 might have thrown humanity about 30 years back.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 10:23 AM

Not quite. Wartime spending enabled as much research in WW2 as it did in the Cold War. Research that, without the war, would just not have happened like this. Neither would the American military/industrial complex exist, which is the basis of America'S current technological edge over everyone else.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 26 2011, 10:30 AM

Even if we take that oversimplification as basis it doesn't jive with your previous statements. Mirage did not intentionally trap those people in the Seattle grid to experiment on them. Gadzooks man, it's a fictional world with documented history (for the most part) could you at least keep the reasons for your prejudices accurate.

Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 11:16 AM

@hermit

This complex seems more to be the reason america is currently going down. But anyway.

Not to say I do not understand your argument in the first place anyway.


As ist 99% of the rest of the game. So what.

Posted by: hermit May 26 2011, 12:27 PM

Nah, the reason for that is called Wall Street.


It isn't. That's why there're rules. Though "In the end it's the GM's decision" is the cop-out of RPG writers for crappy rules ever since Storyteller.


Gadzooks man, it's an internet forum but you could at least try not to troll.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 26 2011, 12:48 PM

I came here with a simple dream. A dream, of killing all humans. And is this how it must end? I ask you, who's the real seven billion ton robot monster here? Not I... Not I.

Posted by: Grinder May 26 2011, 12:53 PM

This thread is locked for 24 hours to give all of you the possibility to think about your posting style, tone, and behaviour.