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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Mage Hunting and Personal Magic Defense
Posted by: Loch May 26 2011, 02:54 PM
So I'm contemplating making a bounty-hunting adept who specializes in tracking down and neutralizing Awakened threats, either for profit or for personal motive. This thread is for both ways to target and bring down Awakened characters/critters, and ways to protect oneself from magical forms of attack and observation. Here's the list so far:
Astral Perception+Assensing: The entry-level stuff for Mage-huntin'. You can't very well call yourself a witch hunter if you can't identify them from the general populace or track them by their signatures, can you?
Counterspelling: Obvious defense to spells.
Shade: Drug that works well enough for assassin mages, but can also be used by would-be mage assassins in a reciprocal fashion. Even if you can't astrally project to finish the mage off astrally, you certainly can shoot/blow up/run over/toss the mage's body in a woodchipper. (Note that this may not work for certain heavily-armored mages out there)
Astral Hazing: Boo hiss. Boring, but effective. Also comes with the downside that you'll probably never find a mage willing to work closely with you (but if you're going down this path, you might not care too much about that 
)
Mana Barriers: Available in both standard and Offensive types, this is a basic way to keep the awakened at arm's length.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 03:08 PM
So, you are an Awakened that hunts your own kind... Why?
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 03:11 PM
Why not? We have a Vampire Vampire-Hunter already after all...
Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 03:16 PM
Uh, wait a second. Why would you need Shade? Do you expect mages to summon spirits at you from the Astral or what?
Frankly, you should be more worried about failing a Counterspelling roll once and eating mind control, I figure...
Posted by: sabs May 26 2011, 03:16 PM
What about a Rigger/Mage, with Astral perception.
You do physical recon to identify potential targets. (assenssing, aura tracking, etc)
You use a combination of Spirits and Drones to take the guy out.
Rigger is very low cost, to be very effective, you don't even need cyber.
Skills:
Electronic Warfare
Computer
pilot(groundcraft)
pilot(aerocraft)
Gunnery
Equipment
Trodes
commlink, with hot simsense module
simsense booster
Programs:
Command, ECCM, Edit, Analyze, Clearsoft,
You have 4 IP in combat, when jumped in, or remote controlling drones.
Drones blow up and you're out nuyen, not dead.
Drones have an OR of 6 or 7 depending how your GM reads the rules.
This means that to target them with anything OTHER than a indirect combat spell, the mage needs to be throwing Force 7 Minimum spells. Drones are immune to mind-control spells.
With Indirect Spells, if you say happen to be in a Horseman with a Rigger Cocoon, and Mage Goggles, you get to add your counter spelling to the response test, (which is already a 6), and then they resist with Armor x 2. For drones, this can be quite nice.
Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 03:17 PM
Awakened are not in any way different, they share no special connection.
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 03:19 PM
"You shoot people in the face for money. I just use Mind Bullets, that's all." 
Posted by: James McMurray May 26 2011, 03:24 PM
You'll have to be a magician or mystic adept if you want to use counterspelling. That's probably better anyway, since it opens up astral projection, summoning, and some metamagics like Shielding.
Posted by: sabs May 26 2011, 03:27 PM
Mystic Adepts don't get Projection.
Posted by: James McMurray May 26 2011, 03:28 PM
Right, but they get the rest. If you're a mystic adept you rely on Shade like the original concept.
Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 03:32 PM
You know, that astral hazing is reducing your magic attribute too.
Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 03:32 PM
Why do you even need Projection all that much, as a matter of fact? Are you into chinese kung-fu flick styled duels on Astral?
Posted by: sabs May 26 2011, 03:35 PM
To Track your Quarry. You sense is aura, and then your track it back to his house. Just don't get too close.
Posted by: Fatum May 26 2011, 03:36 PM
You don't need to project for that. Actually, you don't even have to be there in person.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 26 2011, 03:39 PM
Posted by: Loch May 26 2011, 03:58 PM
Edited the OP to fix this.
Posted by: Machiavelli May 26 2011, 04:41 PM
Semi wrong. Mystic adepts that follow the way of the adept can get access to increased counterspelling.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 26 2011, 05:42 PM
Cost: .5 per level (Combat skills),
.25 per level (Physical, Social, Technical, and Vehicle skills)
This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5. Improved ability must be purchased for a specific skill, not a skill group.
Posted by: James McMurray May 26 2011, 06:00 PM
As you can see the only types of skills available are Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, and Vehicle skills. Magical skills are not part of that list.
I believe he's referring to this:
Sorcerous Parry
Cost: 0.5 per level
Magician’s Way Adepts Only
Mystic adepts with this power are experts at snuffing out
enemy spells with tremendous ease. It increases the rating of the
Counterspelling skill by 1 per level. Like any skill, the maximum
modi ed rating equals the base rating x 1.5.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 26 2011, 06:07 PM
Where is this from? Way of the Adept? I don't have that book.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 06:18 PM
Sorcerous Parry
Cost: 0.5 per level
Magician’s Way Adepts Only
Mystic adepts with this power are experts at snuffing out
enemy spells with tremendous ease. It increases the rating of the
Counterspelling skill by 1 per level. Like any skill, the maximum
modi ed rating equals the base rating x 1.5.
Between that and the Spell Resistance Adept Power, a Mystic Adept on the Magicians Way should be nigh invulnerable to Spells...
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 06:38 PM
All things Way are from Way of the Adept.
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 07:02 PM
How true, especially with a few ranks of initiation and the shielding metamagic. Add in the Reflecting and absorption meta-magics and you won't have to worry about enemies casting spells at you.
If you can stop their magic, then the biggest thing you would need to worry about is their spirits. IMO, the best way to due this via good allocation of foci. A power focus works well for banishing since you don't need to worry if you'll have the right type of banishing focus. You might want to consider a weapon focus as well.
Posted by: Tyro May 26 2011, 07:06 PM
If you can stop their magic, then the biggest thing you would need to worry about is their spirits. IMO, the best way to due this via good allocation of foci. A power foci works well for banishing since you don't need to worry if you'll have the right type of banishing foci. You might want to consider a weapon foci as well.
Foci is the plural of focus. Pet peeve.
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 07:08 PM
Fixed. Thanks; I wasn't even thinking.
Also, mana lodges are a dual barrier when active, so invest in that if you can spare the nuyen. In addition, the arcane arrester metagenic quality will help reduce the effects of spells on you if they manage to get through your counterspelling.
Posted by: Tyro May 26 2011, 07:28 PM
Also, mana lodges are a dual barrier when active, so invest in that if you can spare the nuyen. In addition, the arcane arrester metagenic quality will help reduce the effects of spells on you if they manage to get through your counterspelling.
I tend to forget about lodges acting as barriers. Handy as protection vs. ritual magic.
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 07:33 PM
Dual Natured Barrier?
So they are tangible barriers on the mundane plane too?
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 26 2011, 07:36 PM
So they are tangible barriers on the mundane plane too?
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 07:44 PM
No; they stop bullets. Dual natured barriers are both a physical and astral barrier.
Posted by: Irion May 26 2011, 07:47 PM
No, they do not stop bullets. That would be a bit too much.
Posted by: Tyro May 26 2011, 07:57 PM
They're mana only, but mana barriers will stop spells on the physical plane. IIRC they also help against ritual magic.
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 26 2011, 08:05 PM
Indeed: dual means mana barrier on astral and physical at the same time. Not all mana barriers are active on the physical and astral at the same time, after all.
AFAIK, there's nothing that's a physical/mana barrier on both planes at once. Is there?
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 26 2011, 08:14 PM
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 08:30 PM
Ah, I see that I misread Physical Mana Barrier as "Physical and Mana Barrier". Good to know that I was wrong.
Posted by: Loch May 26 2011, 09:05 PM
Nudging this back on track, there's also the Mountain Mentor Spirit, who gives +2 Counterspelling at the expense of a bit of operational freedom.
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 09:29 PM
While counter-spelling is good, it's necessary to have high attributes because you won't get counter-spelling to your resistance tests if you aren't on guard. Dwarf is a good option for race since it has willpower boost.
In addition, are you looking for only counter-spelling for yourself or a group? Not all things that help you are helpful for a group. Spell Resistance Adept Power only boosts your resistance test. Absorption Metamagic and Reflection Metamagic only work if you are targeted by a spell. Sorcerous Parry Adept Power and Shielding Metamagic will help protect a group.
Posted by: sabs May 26 2011, 09:30 PM
I still think my Drone idea is good 
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 09:34 PM
The best thing about your idea is that stacks with everything else (unless you run out of bp for skills and nuyen for drones).
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 09:36 PM
Yah, grant huge loads of magic resistance to something that has a high object resistance to begin with and you are golden.
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 09:58 PM
Aspected Domain for an obscure magical group?
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 10:04 PM
Aspected Mana Static?
*runs for cover*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 10:05 PM
*runs for cover*
Hey, I like that Spell...
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 10:07 PM
*snickers*
and people call me a twink ^^
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 10:08 PM
and people call me a twink ^^
Really now? Didn't know that about you Stahl. I always figured you for being more butch.
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 10:12 PM
Huh? O.o
What am i missing here? o.O
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 10:16 PM
Might want to research what "Twink" might also mean, Stahl.
Posted by: Stahlseele May 26 2011, 10:18 PM
*twitch twitch*
what the hell?
i thought it was only used in rpg's <.<
Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 10:26 PM
Just consider that my personal revenge for Germany getting the good Shadowrun stuff. MUH-HA-HA-HA! Mine is an evil laugh!
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 10:29 PM
Astral Hazing + Geomancy metamagic = 4 extra dice for magic tests?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 10:38 PM
Nope...
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 11:08 PM
Why not? Astral hazing generates a rating 4 background count. Geomancy lets you change the aspect of a domain.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 11:36 PM
Astral Hazing does not create a Domain, however...
Posted by: Dez384 May 26 2011, 11:40 PM
somehow catalyse and feed on the character’s darker emotions and
negative feelings, disturbing the character’s aura and any ambient
mana in her vicinity. For reasons not yet understood, the character
becomes an aspected domain in her own right and taints astral
space around her wherever she goes; a generator of tainted astral
background count
Even if there was no domain, geomancy let's you gradually aspect ambient background count.
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 27 2011, 12:35 AM
All clever arguments aside, it's a *Negative* quality, and it's 'tainted'. You can't use it to help you even *more* than it already does.
Posted by: Dez384 May 27 2011, 12:47 AM
Aspecting it to your tradition actually helps others because it will no longer decrease their magic if they are of a similar tradition.
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 27 2011, 12:56 AM
A side effect of the munchkinry at best, but CanRay specified 'obscure'.
Posted by: Dez384 May 27 2011, 01:03 AM
Obscure is relative to the proximity of the location and tradition. Though an unsavory GM might make the Voice of Ogoun to tour Moscow.
Posted by: Halflife May 27 2011, 01:18 AM
Pretty sure Astral Hazing doesn't count as ambient mana (you aren't part of the environment) so you couldn't use Geomancy on it.
Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 01:36 AM
I'm the king of Obscure. My GM made "The Insane Side Of The Force" just for me in a Star Wars D6 game once.
Only PC ever to be committed to an insane asylum in his GMing history and still be considered eligible for continued use as a PC. Under strict medication. And a rolled up newspaper to beat me with when I got too weird.
*Sighs* I miss good ol' Captain Jack...
Posted by: Halflife May 27 2011, 02:32 AM
Well when I need someone to get me through tonight I know who to call
Posted by: Dez384 May 27 2011, 02:35 AM
Ghostbusters?
Now those were some guys who knew how to banish spirits
Posted by: Halflife May 27 2011, 02:36 AM
Now those were some guys who knew how to banish spirits
I was going for Billly Joel but sure
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FK2Mnt5kHo for the younguns
Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 02:41 AM
Captain Jack Terrowack, actually. Always insisted on the "Captain" part, too, as he owned and commanded his own freighter.
Took all my willpower not to break out laughing during the original Pirates of the Caribbean movie and Jack Sparrow. (CAPTAIN Jack Sparrow!).
Posted by: Halflife May 27 2011, 02:46 AM
It's a good little tic to have.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 27 2011, 03:24 AM
You mean it stops bullets and spells both? Biofiber. It's not equally effective against both, but it's going to have both barrier and structure rating. I guarantee that much.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 27 2011, 03:32 AM
But it will make a BC that extends around you. Let that settle in for a few weeks, and then use geomancy.
Posted by: Dez384 May 27 2011, 03:57 AM
Back on track for Loch, another defense against spirits are the spells Spirit Barrier and Spirit Zapper
Posted by: longbowrocks May 27 2011, 04:07 AM
Don't take astral perception. You'll need to essence whore like a mage with none of the nasty evil bonuses. Here are a few ideas.
- Use astral pigments for graffiti around the city. Keep video recordings of the locations, and note reactions. Eventually a mage will let his guard down and show some sort of reaction to your art.
- Search the web. Some mages aren't concerned about letting everyone know. If your a technomancer, a lot can be found in the resonance realms.
- This is kind of a stretch, but try combining shade with deepweed (SR4A).
- Exploit the weaknesses of a mage. Buff that initiative until it doesn't matter what your adversary rolls.
- As people have said: drones are great. Detect enemies doesn't work on something with no intentions, detect life doesn't work on things with no life force, and hopefully your mage target will start with a direct spell (if he gets any off).
- This is one I've always wanted to pull: disguise, probably reinforced with pixie dust or something so magic won't be an issue, or you can send in your drones. The story is this: you're reinforcing the magician's place of residence as a free test of your company's new structural armor. The best part is, you really will reinforce the house, but you also implant plastic explosives. The problem with barriers is that they often degrade too fast to let chunky salsa show its full potential. However, if you put enough structure and armor into one part of one hallway with some directed charges, numbers suddenly become irrelevant. Even if the numbers are hardened armor on a force 40 spirit, this is death on the plot excuse level.
- Take the astral hazing fomori route. The best laid plans are frequently blown to heck with inappropriately applied force at unexpected magnitudes.
Posted by: Tyro May 27 2011, 04:51 AM
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FK2Mnt5kHo for the younguns
<- Is a 24 (today!) year old Billy Joel fan.
Also the Beatles, Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Simon and Garfunkel...
Posted by: PoliteMan May 27 2011, 04:54 AM
I like the concept but I think it's fundamentally flawed, as is a lot of the advice being thrown around. SR is a game of glass cannons and defenses simply do not keep up well the offensive capabilities of most characters. A mage hunter isn't necessarily someone who the mage can't hurt, he's someone who's very good at killing mages.
So don't try to beat the mage at his own game, focus on drones, tech, and big guns. Either kill him with something his magic can't counter (matrix, drones/vehicles) or hit him so hard the first time that he's done (beeeeg guns).
For my money, the best way to kill a mage is 3000 miles away with an Exploit program and a passing bus as he's getting his morning cafe.
Posted by: Tyro May 27 2011, 04:58 AM
So don't try to beat the mage at his own game, focus on drones, tech, and big guns. Either kill him with something his magic can't counter (matrix, drones/vehicles) or hit him so hard the first time that he's done (beeeeg guns).
For my money, the best way to kill a mage is 3000 miles away with an Exploit program and a passing bus as he's getting his morning cafe.
Seconded.
Posted by: Manunancy May 27 2011, 05:10 AM
And that's a nice answer to ritual magic... 'I don't need any magic to send bad vibes your way froma continent away !'.
Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 05:11 AM
Nuke 'em from orbit, only way to be sure!
Posted by: longbowrocks May 27 2011, 05:17 AM
But the whole "I can hit you from across the universe" still bugs the crap outta me.
Posted by: Fatum May 27 2011, 05:25 AM
Then you just have to watch out for leaving ritual links.
Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 05:48 AM
Then you just have to watch out for leaving ritual links.
C3 is your friend. Or a touch of napalm.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 27 2011, 12:50 PM
Napalm... The Quicker Fixer Upper... 
Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 06:54 PM
"Napalm Sticks To Mages"!
Posted by: Tyro May 27 2011, 07:34 PM
Even Teflon mages?
Posted by: sabs May 27 2011, 07:38 PM
The best way to kill a Mage is with a blimp drone with a mounted sniper rifle, from max range.
Or better yet, hacking his gremlin infected commlink, video taping him committing a crime, and sending said video tape to Knight Errant.
Posted by: Irion May 28 2011, 12:28 PM
Sorry, but mages are quite easy to kill.
They have a low reaction score. Maybe 1 to 3.
They have a low body score and as a result low armor. Maybe 1-7. Human 1 to 3.
Because at Char gen they bleed BP as hell.
Mages are one of the builds, besides Technomancer, where it is worth to dropevery physical attribute to 1. (In Karmagen this ain't the case anymore)
So to kill a mage is not so though.
An exeption is the possession mage. This type of mage has a possibility to increase his body and armor far beyond the reach of a sam. (Yes, there are builds how a sam could get even more, but this would require a lot money and Essence and not a possibility at chargen)
So generally speaking it is quite easy to kill a mage. The sam would have higher INI and one shot would mostly take care of the mage.
This is, as far as I would go, also the reason possession mages are seen as so overpowered. They combine the options of a mage with the resistance of a tank.
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 28 2011, 01:08 PM
None of that makes sense, Irion.
Posted by: Irion May 28 2011, 01:22 PM
@Yerameyahu
What do you mean?
So a mage does not generally have a lower reaction and body score, compared to a Sam?
A Sam normally get some kind of reaction enhancer in ordert to get additional IP passes.
A mage needs to pay for spells, additional skills and an additional attribute. And of course for the quality in question.
So I guess, a mage won't be able to afford the attributes of a SAM.
If you look at the builds of mages posted here you will see, that most will have a deacent problem, if getting shot at.
The only execption beeing possession mages.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 28 2011, 01:36 PM
What do you mean?
So a mage does not generally have a lower reaction and body score, compared to a Sam?
A Sam normally get some kind of reaction enhancer in ordert to get additional IP passes.
A mage needs to pay for spells, additional skills and an additional attribute. And of course for the quality in question.
So I guess, a mage won't be able to afford the attributes of a SAM.
If you look at the builds of mages posted here you will see, that most will have a deacent problem, if getting shot at.
The only execption beeing possession mages.
Well, One of the Mages in our Group has an Initiative of 13, and 4 Passes (Our Combat Mage)... Seems pretty damn fast to me.
The Face Mage has a 10 Initiative and 3 Passes.
The Combat mage has a Body of 6
The Face Mage has a Body of 3 (So he is a little light compared to a Street Sam)
The Combat Mage has a Reaction of 8
The Face Mage has a Reaction of 6... (So not all that much less than a Street Sam)
Neither of the Mages has a Physical Stat below a 3 (The Face Mage has a 3 Body *shrug*)
Being shot at is fairly easy for a Mage to avoid.
Physical Barrier Spells
Armor Spells
Avoidance Spells (Detect Enemy, Combat Sense)
Hiding Spells (Invisibility, Physical Mask, etc.)
Battlefield Control Spells (Shape "X" Spells, Hot Potato, Confusion, Mist, etc.)
Using spells from Cover, etc.
There are a lot of ways for a Mage to avoid the Bullet, so to speak. How good is that Street Sam at avoiding the Mana Bolt?
Posted by: Irion May 28 2011, 02:51 PM
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Which you need to sustain.
Which you need to sustain.
How? Increased reaction spell?
Has to be sustained too.
Yes, of course you may start with three sustaining foci at a force of 3.
But you need to pay for it. This would end up to 3 BP each, so 12 in total.
Not to mention, that even small amounts of BC tend to just reduce your foci to be useless.
Yes, of course you may have an increase reflex (force 4) Focus for having 4 IPs. Yes, of course thats better than everything the avarage SAM has out of Chargen.
But please consider, that each point of BC reduces your IP by one this way.
So yes, if you look at a mage in an environment he is perfectly adepted to and pit him against a SAM who is not, yes the mage will win.
Yes a mage has close to no limit on possible improvement. But he does have a limit on Karma.
Yes there are ways around it. (But there are always things you need to houseroule to make a System work or interprete in a "strict" sence)
It is like the Genetic Heritage with the Synaptic Booster 3 with no Essence or Nuyen costs. Nobody would let it fly.
So yes, pit a starting SAM and a starting mage against each other. But please choose a surrounding which would be likly. Maybe somewhere in the barrens.
And now the mage has to deal with BC, maybe low light, light mist possibly (smog, pollution).
The detect enemy spell has lesser range than a pistol. The additional hits do not give much information etc. etc.
You can play the game the other way too. Put both in the desert and give the SAM the possibility to detect the mage (Ultrasound, Radar) and a sniper rifle.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 28 2011, 03:25 PM
Which you need to sustain.
Which you need to sustain.
How? Increased reaction spell?
Has to be sustained too.
Yes, of course you may start with three sustaining foci at a force of 3.
But you need to pay for it. This would end up to 3 BP each, so 12 in total.
Not to mention, that even small amounts of BC tend to just reduce your foci to be useless.
Yes, of course you may have an increase reflex (force 4) Focus for having 4 IPs. Yes, of course thats better than everything the avarage SAM has out of Chargen.
But please consider, that each point of BC reduces your IP by one this way.
SO WHAT... so he either sustains spells, has a Spirit do it for him, uses Foci, or whatever. That does not matter. If you take away the benefits of any Archtype and then compare them to another without compromising them as well, they will always come out subpar in the comparison. The only way to truly compare them is to use them as they are designed to be used.
Among the mages in the various groups I have been in...
Some use Spells sustained by Foci to achieve stats above normal...
Some use Spirits...
SOME use Cyber/Bio ware to do so.
And some sustain them themselves.
Yes a mage has close to no limit on possible improvement. But he does have a limit on Karma.
Yes there are ways around it. (But there are always things you need to houseroule to make a System work or interprete in a "strict" sence)
It is like the Genetic Heritage with the Synaptic Booster 3 with no Essence or Nuyen costs. Nobody would let it fly.
Of course not, the Genetic Enhancements still cost Essence. Arguing otherwise is disengenuous.
And now the mage has to deal with BC, maybe low light, light mist possibly (smog, pollution).
The detect enemy spell has lesser range than a pistol. The additional hits do not give much information etc. etc.
Which is my assumption. Not all places in the Barrens have BGC. Arguing otherwise is also Disengenuous.
The Sam has many of the same penalties.
Detect Enemy can have a HUGE area. MUCH greater than the range of the Pistol. Magic*Force*Meters for the version that I have for my character. Even with a Moderate Force of 3 and a Magic of 3, I get 90 Meters... WELL beyond the range of your peasly pistol.
You do realize that the Ultrasound and Radar is useless beyond 100 meters, right? Get real here Irion. Most engangements in shadowrun are well within 100 Meters, and are generally in areas where such things as technology are limited. Radar and Ultrasound are of failry limited use in clutterred environments, afterall.
I am not arguing that the Mage is crazy overpowered. I am just pointing out that a Mage does not have to be as limited as you seem to think that they are.
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 28 2011, 03:36 PM
Not even close, in fact.
Posted by: Irion May 28 2011, 03:50 PM
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Right. I forgot about the trick of using spirits of men casting and sustaining your spells for you.
Yes, but some have. And since you do not get hits back, if you walk trough a BC... (As far as I know only quickend spells regenerate their "hits")
Radar? Yes.
Ultrasound? Where do you get this from?
And where does it say that?
I am not saying they are very limited. I am just saying there are not that good in direct confrontation with the opposition.
(There are many, many ways for example detect enemys can be turned useless. If the guy is not after you but after the same thing you are after etc.)
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 28 2011, 03:57 PM
Let's not rehash the mage vs. sam debate again, facrissake.
I'd be surprised if Ultrasound worked even as far as 100m, really.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 28 2011, 03:57 PM
Where do you get this feeling from. There are many more thread topics on how the Mage is Overpowered as compared to every other archtype in the book. I do not think you understand mages as well as you may think you do.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 07:39 AM
Ultrasound? Where do you get this from?
100 meter range? Honestly, I don't see where that's listed for either radar or ultrasound. At least, a search for '100' in both AR and AU turns up nothing of interest.
Posted by: Irion May 29 2011, 11:10 AM
@longbowrocks
Radar has a signal raiting of 2. This translates in the "signal raiting table" to 100m.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 06:24 PM
Radar has a signal raiting of 2. This translates in the "signal raiting table" to 100m.
:facepalm: Thanks. I can't believe I didn't think of that. On the other hand, can you point that out for me somewhere? I see that ultrawideband has 2, but the only reference to normal radar signal that I can find is the table on SR4A p. 222, which suggests signal 8-ish, or at least that 2 is way too weak.
Honestly, at the very least I would make signal = rating.
Posted by: Irion May 29 2011, 06:40 PM
It can penetrate its rating x 5 of cumulative barrier Structure
ratings (see p. 157, SR4). For example, a Rating 2 radar sensor
could “see through” two Structure rating 5 walls. It can be used
to detect weapons and cyberware on a person in the same way as
millimeter wave radar (p. 255, SR4). Radar sensor cyberware has
an effective Signal rating of 2 for determining the sensor’s range.
Radar sensors are vulnerable to jammers and jamming.
Thats is of course ultrawideband and there is no other radar sensor. (For this purpose)
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 07:00 PM
Um, what? Oh, you mean that no other radar sensor lists its signal, so we use that? I figure normal radar would have a lot more range since it doesn't process much detail anyway. Balance wise, it costs 5 capacity. That's way to much to basically be ultrawideband radar with no nifty "look through walls" bonus.
Posted by: Irion May 29 2011, 07:04 PM
@longbowrocks
What are you talking about?
The radar sensor is headware and takes up 2 points of capacity.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 07:09 PM
I thought we might not be on the same page, I was talking about the vehicle sensor, which is what everyone... Oh goddammit. I just realized I was off topic. My bad guys. 
Posted by: Irion May 29 2011, 07:11 PM
Yeah, I read the other thread too at this moment and though you gave a response there. Than I was looking for my post and there was the AHHHH-effect.
Posted by: Mäx May 29 2011, 07:34 PM
If the mage can't hurt yoo, then your on a pretty damm good start at being good at killing mages.
For example one of my 750 karma builds throws 22 dice for absorption(combatspells, so he most of the time absorbs 7(or more) points of force from combat spells used against him and after the first one he can throw back a force 16 stunbolt with 0 drain or if he doesn't have direct los or want's a real area effect a force 9 ball lightning with measly 2 drain witch is resisted to 0.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 08:34 PM
For example one of my 750 karma builds throws 22 dice for absorption(combatspells, so he most of the time absorbs 7(or more) points of force from combat spells used against him and after the first one he can throw back a force 16 stunbolt with 0 drain or if he doesn't have direct los or want's a real area effect a force 9 ball lightning with measly 2 drain witch is resisted to 0.
So you're implying the force 16 stunbolt is 0 drain before even resisting drain? I don't see how that's possible.
Posted by: Halflife May 29 2011, 08:44 PM
Absorption allows you to absorb spells to reduce the DV of spells you cast shortly afterward. Basically allows you to redirect that magic back at your opponent.
Posted by: Irion May 29 2011, 08:51 PM
How does that work. I mean you would need to initiate about 7 times. (Or use foci)
Posted by: longbowrocks May 29 2011, 09:36 PM
Wow.
Posted by: Dez384 May 29 2011, 10:43 PM
For example one of my 750 karma builds throws 22 dice for absorption(combatspells, so he most of the time absorbs 7(or more) points of force from combat spells used against him and after the first one he can throw back a force 16 stunbolt with 0 drain or if he doesn't have direct los or want's a real area effect a force 9 ball lightning with measly 2 drain witch is resisted to 0.
That's a double edged sword. Unless you have 7+ magic, you run the risk of absorbing too much magic and taking damage.
Posted by: Fatum May 29 2011, 10:47 PM
Minding that Absorption is an advanced metamagic that requires Shielding, why wouldn't you have 7+ magic when you get to it?
Posted by: Dez384 May 29 2011, 10:53 PM
It depends on the character and that metamagic can be learned without initiation.
Posted by: Stahlseele May 30 2011, 12:15 AM
Shielding, Reflection, Absorption. < = in combination, you are pretty much spell proof for most purposes . .
Shield yourself from damage, reflect what you can not shield, absorb what you can not reflect.
Posted by: longbowrocks May 30 2011, 12:23 AM
Shield yourself from damage, reflect what you can not shield, absorb what you can not reflect.
Magic is bad for my health.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 02:17 AM
Level 3 iniate with shileding and absorption:
Willpower/Body 4
Counterspelling(combat) 5(+2)
Mentorspirit +2
Shielding +3
Shielding focus +3
Absorption +3
4+5+2+2+3+3+3=22
Posted by: Dez384 May 30 2011, 03:15 AM
I don't think that you add your initiation grade for shielding AND absorption.
Prerequisite: Shielding (p. 190, SR4)
This advanced Shielding technique allows an initiate to
siphon some of the mana away from a spell used against her.
To use this metamagic, the character performs the usual Spell
Resistance Test (pp. 173-174, SR4) using Counterspelling, and
adding the initiate grade as a dice pool modifier. Regardless
of whether the spell is fully resisted or not, each hit on the
character’s Spell Resistance Test allows her to absorb one Force
point as one point of temporary “mana charge” (up to the spell’s
Force). This mana charge may be retained in the absorbing
character’s aura for (initiate grade) turns. Each point of mana
charge may be used to reduce the Drain DV from casting a spell
by 1, at which point it is used up. The maximum mana charge a
magician can retain is equal to her Magic attribute. Each point
of absorbed charge above this level dissipates, but not before
causing an automatic 1 DV of Physical damage (such damage
is cumulative: absorbing 3 points above the character’s Magic
causes 3 DV). If the mana charge is not fully expended in the
time limit, the initiate must resist Drain with a DV equal to the
remaining mana charge (if the mana charge exceeds the character’s
Magic, this Drain is Physical). Unused mana charge is then
lost. A character cannot absorb mana from a spell she has cast
herself or reflected with Reflecting metamagic.
Posted by: Irion May 30 2011, 05:02 AM
@Mäx
Yes, thats what I thought. You do not add initiation grade twice. Because it is silly and not RAW.
@Stahlseele
You just get one counterspelling test, not three. (Because it would be silly and is not RAW)
Read the post from Dez384 to confirm. Last part
Posted by: Falconer May 30 2011, 05:25 AM
A suggestion to the OP.
If you're going to try and hunt other awakened... especially mages. Kill LOS. LOS is a negative on spellcasting as well as ranged combat pools.
There's some good martial arts + adept tricks which can make you a very very nasty blind fighter... (motion sense...). If they can't see you, they can't stunbolt you. Toss in a bit of the standard phys ad melee tricks and you're golden. Other good things to remember are smoke grenades and the like. There's a little debate on how effective they are on astral perception (I tend to consider them half-effective against assensing... similar to how low-light or other visual enhancements have different visibility mods). Another good trick is to go mystic adept... pull in some ranks in counterspelling and maybe a little bit of summoning (concealment is a negative penalty on people attacking you, and even at a low force 2-4 is a nice edge w/o being overpowering)
Another reasonable adept power is the constant detect magic... as it identifies spirits/foci/etc... in your vicinity.
Everyone always forgets that if you have people with good cover... in a firefight that is a negative penalty on guns but also on the spellslinger.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 01:52 PM
Yes, thats what I thought. You do not add initiation grade twice. Because it is silly and not RAW.
Absorption is used by doing a spell resistance test using counterspelling and adding your iniate grade as a dicepool modifier.
Shielding adds your iniate grade as a dicepool modifier to you counterspelling, no where in the rules does it say that these 2 dice pool modifiers are incompatible with each other.
Posted by: Irion May 30 2011, 03:04 PM
@Mäx
Of course it does. Read the post of Dez384.
Since every mage who has Absorption has also shielding, the example given is for a mage having both Absorption and Shielding.
And is the initiate grade added twice? No, it is not.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 05:09 PM
Of course it does. Read the post of Dez384.
I have read all the relevant rules, none of them say that you dont get the dicepool bonus from shielding when using absorption.
Posted by: Irion May 30 2011, 05:29 PM
This advanced Shielding technique allows an initiate to
siphon some of the mana away from a spell used against her.
To use this metamagic, the character performs the usual Spell
Resistance Test (pp. 173-174, SR4) using Counterspelling, and
adding the initiate grade as a dice pool modifier.
It is here what you add. If they wanted to add twice counterspelling, they would have written so.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 05:53 PM
Shielding is part of the counterspelling pool.
protect herself against hostile spells as they are cast. When
using Counterspelling to protect against hostile spells, the magician
adds a number of dice equal to her initiate grade to her
Counterspelling dice
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 06:04 PM
That's just ridiculous. Absorption is a variation of Shielding, not another re-stack. You sound like a D&Der.
Posted by: Irion May 30 2011, 06:05 PM
@Mäx
But you are using Absorption so I guess you have to follow the rules on Absorbtion. I ain't that hard.
And there it is told exactly how it is down.
Make a counterspelling test (if you go to said page you will find the information if you have to use body or willpower) and add your counterspelling dices plus your initiate grade. It does not matter what shielding says, because you are not using it.
It stats make a resistant test with counterspelling + initiate grade. Counterspelling is the name of the skill.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 06:16 PM
Yes it's a name of the skill, there are thinks that add dice pool modifiers to that skill, shielding being one of them.
No where in the absorption rules does it say you dont add in the modifiers for counterspelling.
Posted by: Dez384 May 30 2011, 06:24 PM
protect herself against hostile spells as they are cast. When
using Counterspelling to protect against hostile spells, the magician
adds a number of dice equal to her initiate grade to her
Counterspelling dice. This bonus applies whether the magician is
protecting herself or another. These additional dice are not gained
for any other use of Counterspelling.
Absorption is an "other use of counterspelling".
Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 06:29 PM
Nuh uh, Dez384, it doesn't specifically say that!! Hehe. Kidding, of course.
You have to always ask yourself, 'Am I obviously misinterpreting the rules to help myself, in a way that simply doesn't make sense?' ('Am I a dirty munchkin?'). If something seems really good, it's too good to be true. If something seems to double or triple-count a bonus, it's too good to be true.
Posted by: James McMurray May 30 2011, 06:32 PM
As long as the GM is fine with it, run with the most broken interpretation you can make. There are 3 billion NPCs and one you. Every argument for a more powerful doodad is an argument for a massive jump in the world's power and a comparatively minor jump in your own. My advice: be careful what you wish for. 
Posted by: Irion May 30 2011, 06:36 PM
@Mäx
But if you use the skill dice pool modifiers you may get in other circumstances are really not important.
Posted by: Mäx May 30 2011, 06:44 PM
Not really, you do the usual spell resistance test, witch is exactly the use of counterspelling that shielding applies to.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka May 30 2011, 08:21 PM
Posted by: Dahrken May 31 2011, 06:54 AM
Would you add your Shielding metamagic extra dice for a Cleansing attempt ? It is after all based on a Magic + Counterspelling roll. Or the dices from a Counterspelling focus ? Reflecting is more accurate in it's wording : "To use Reflecting a character must be able to use Counterspelling during the normal Spell Resistance Test. As with Shielding, add initiate grade as a dice pool modifier.", and the base rules (SR4A p 198) says about Shielding "These additionnal dice are not gained for any other use of Counterspelling.", strongly hinting that you don't get to add your intiation rank twice.
Personnally as a player and as a GM I would not, so neither would I add them for an Absorption test - those are different use of the same skill. I view Shielding/Absorption/Reflexion as three alternatives rather than cumulatives way to counter a spell.
Obviously YMMW, but I strongly advise to check that with your table/GM to be sure that everyone is on the same page.
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