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Posted by: Seth May 26 2011, 07:22 PM

So as a mage I can summon a watcher. It has two die for its primary skill watching. Everytime it makes a watching roll it has about a 1/3 chance of seeing something blindingly obvious, and about a 1/3 chance of critically glitching... pretty grim odds.

How do I make them actually useful?

If I make them too useful, then they stop shadowrunning being possible. If they are as rubbish (I am being polite) as they are now, then they are useless and they might as well not be in the game.

What do you do in your games. I am particularly interested if anyone using RAW has found a way to make them useful.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 26 2011, 07:23 PM

I vote for 'leave out of the game'. Mages get enough love.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 26 2011, 07:43 PM

Watchers in 4thed really don't live up to their name. If you use shrinking dice pool for extended test watcher's won't find or spot anything unless it's close and obvious. What they can do is act as a distraction or basic early warning system for obvious threats. Also I've seen them used as two way astral communications. Watcher maintains mental link with caster and is ordered to stay with non astral team members to relay communications.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 26 2011, 08:06 PM

As mover points out watchers do have their uses, their just not as game changing as the other stuff in the mages arsenal, which works fine for me as their essentially free.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 26 2011, 08:07 PM

Honestly, mobile communicators is *pretty* handy, and it saves you from using a real spirit. So let's just call them Talker spirits instead.

Posted by: Blog May 26 2011, 08:09 PM

Watchers are what they are, want something better then summon a real spirit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 26 2011, 08:12 PM

You can always aspect them to make them more useful in their "Watching" role... Rules for such in Street Magic.

Posted by: Fyndhal May 26 2011, 08:16 PM

"If this door opens, alert me at once."
"If this thing moves, alert me at once."
"Follow this man. If you lose him, alert me at once. If he begins bleeding, alert me at once."

Watchers are good at watching and letting you know if something obvious happens. They are a handy way of spreading out your attention.

Posted by: Summerstorm May 26 2011, 08:34 PM

I myself hybridyzed the ruled from 3rd edition: Watchers are summoned at force of half your magic. - at no extra costs for summoning... drain still is just hours.

They also get a +2 dice pool bonus for their only power as well as perception throws. (So a nice, good force 3 watcher, even in 2 point-Background count still can see something - 6 dice left)

That helps a LOT. The whole "Yay, we are force 1"- totally doesn't work. There are bubbles of background count everywhere... they would pop too easily.

Posted by: Adarael May 26 2011, 08:39 PM

Yeah, that pretty much hits the nail on the head. Here's a couple of facts:

1) The watcher doesn't need to roll to spot something blindingly obvious - if something IS obvious, there's no roll. If something is poorly hidden, then yes, it's crappy at noticing. But a watcher doesn't need to roll to notice people entering a room, or a spell being cast if it's Force 6 (TN to assess is 6 minus Force, after all), or whatever. Just as you wouldn't make a player roll to notice blindingly obvious things, so it goes for watchers.
2) The watcher also doesn't need to roll dice to do things like relay communications. "Go tell <person> we're being attacked" is not a rolling sort of situation. They're also good for things like, "Go to place X. Tell me if it's warded."
3) You can always utilize the teamwork test rules to let a pack of watchers be more effective than a single one.
4) You can extend watchers lifespans to Hits in days, rather than Hits in hours.

Posted by: DMiller May 26 2011, 09:24 PM

HOUSE RULE:

At our table we simply have watchers summoned with the summoner's mental stats. This makes them useful without making them over powered.

-D

Posted by: DireRadiant May 26 2011, 09:35 PM

Think of Watchers as the casual everyday magic party trick. They are not powerful, but useful.

A Mage can have at least 4 Watchers at all times that just hang out with the team mates and relay communication. Useful, hard to eavesdrop. Great for surveillance.

Don't forget situational bonus. +3 for actively looking.

A watcher is a freebie, it should be useful, but it's not meant to be as Uber as summoning a Spirit.

By itself a Watcher is useless. Against skilled opponents they are almost useless. With a creative and skilled Mage who understands their limitatinos they can become useful tools to extend the reach and knowledge of the Mage.

Posted by: Prime Mover May 26 2011, 09:49 PM

Watcher spirit at parties. Ok keep an eye on this drink whenever I sit it down and remind me it's mine.

Posted by: CanRay May 26 2011, 10:15 PM

One trick I figured out as part of the backstory with Pup The Dog Shaman was that he was a spotter for a Urban Sniper who taught him shooting.

He'd use a Watcher Spirit to find out when a target stopped moving (Like he was sitting down to watch the Combat Biker game), and show up on the other side of the wall right where the fellow's centre of mass is. He'd then use his "Wreck Wall" spell to put a hole in the external wall large enough for a bullet. Once the hole was there, his partner took one shot, and it was Miller time.

Watchers are also great for a low-end magical radio system for a group. Just make one Watcher per person, and have them communicate with each other at the speed of spirits. No radio chatter at all to be picked up electronically, perfect for no/low-magic areas.

Finally, they make GREAT distractions.

Posted by: Bodak May 26 2011, 11:41 PM

If your magician is of a possession tradition, then a watcher can possess dead bodies. It'll probably only be able to do so if you prepare the body as a vessel to give the watcher bonus dice on its possession attempt. So it isn't a way to drop a guard and spontaneously reanimate him on your side now. But it can be useful if you come across a particular body you appreciate and would enjoy keeping around, for the tasks it could feasibly perform for your benefit. Vessel preparation retards degeneration. In SR4 where you can't get a dikoted ally spirit, this is a mage's friend with benefits that won't talk back.

Posted by: Tanegar May 27 2011, 02:27 AM

Wow. That's a level of squick that I had not previously considered.

Posted by: TheOOB May 27 2011, 06:12 AM

Watchers are astral, any spellcasting is obvious. Watchers have a ton of use and utility and don't need to be buffed. If I want a better watcher, I'll summon an air spirit.

Posted by: Udoshi May 27 2011, 06:58 AM

The best use if watcher spirits I've seen suggested in a game was in jest.

"Summon a bunch of watcher spirits, and then order them all at the enemy mage in chorus!"
"Won't he get rid of them fairly quickly, though?"
"Yeah... exactly as fast as I can summon them."
"That's not a chorus, that's a round. And a bad one at that, since they're rating 1."
"That's kind of the point."

It hasn't actually been used yet, sadly. The party ended up doing something else against the enemy team.

Posted by: TheOOB May 27 2011, 07:12 AM

I do a lot of "alert me if someone comes through this point" I don't care how bad their perception, and how good your stealth, you can't follow us through a narrow sewer pipe without the watcher seeing you.

Posted by: Garvel May 27 2011, 01:13 PM

If you need more dice for the watchers perception, you can simply summon a huge mob of them. NPC groups roll ("highest dicepool of a single member" + "number of teammates") dice for a perception test. If you have 6 watchers, that are 8 dice. If the watchers stay only one hour, they don't cause drain anyway.

Posted by: Fyndhal May 27 2011, 02:37 PM

That's incorrect. A watcher still needs to make an astral perception roll to spot a stealthed character walking past an arbitrary spot, unless the arbitrary spot has something that the stealthed character must manipulate in order to pass. Infiltrate does work against unseen, astral observers.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 27 2011, 02:46 PM

That's why you put the watcher to watch a door; "if this door opens, warn me".

Posted by: Prime Mover May 27 2011, 02:48 PM

Sometimes as a GM you have to make arbitrary decisions regarding stealth and circumstance. Just because you you have an awesome success on your stealthy check and the opposing player doesn't even have enough dice to match you. If your walking down a narrow well lit hallway with the opposing player two feet away you really need to bring common sense to bear. My players have argued this with me in several different games but I stand firm in some situations.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 27 2011, 03:02 PM

Stealth isn't invisibility. It's the art of remaining unnoticed when that is possible. If there's an opportunity to sneak past the watcher unseen (due to cover, ruthenium polymer clothing, or invisibility spell), the ninja would get a check. That's why you place watchers in such as way as to give no opportunity; hence watching the door that must be opened to pass through it.

Posted by: Fyndhal May 27 2011, 04:42 PM

Agreed, unless you have concealment, invisibility and/or ruthenium + sound dampening. That's when you use the "toss a pebble around the corner" trick to distract the guard. If he doesn't buy it...you may be screwed. Even with the exceptions above, I'd still give bonus dice for the circumstance. I'm AFB, but it'd probably end up:

Skill + Int +3 (Actively watching) +6 (Dangerously close proximity) +3 (Enhanced senses) -0 (light penalty) -4 (Ruthenium)

If we assume skilled guards, say skill 4 and Int 3, that would end up with 15d to discover the Infiltrator. The infiltrator could still have more dice, but it's not exactly easy. A watcher, to bring us back on topic, would be slightly worse:

Skill 1 + Int 1 +3 (Actively watching) +6 (Dangerously close proximity) +2 (Astrally Perceiving) -0 (light penalty) -0 (Ruthenium, doesn't apply to Assensing) = 13d to perceive an infiltrator within 2 feet of it with no good cover.

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2011, 07:04 PM

"Look for Angry or Scared, and tell me." Even if you're the stealthiest Mo'Fo around, you still have emotions. That drips into the Astral Plane.

Of course, if you have some Ice Cold bugger like my Accountant From Hell, then some problems might occur.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 27 2011, 10:15 PM

not helping but i am reminded of the attempt to use a watcher as translator

Posted by: CanRay May 28 2011, 01:24 AM

*Bunch of babbling in unknown language* "What did he say?" *Watcher babbles back in exactly the same language, in the same tone*

Posted by: baronspam May 28 2011, 05:14 AM

This is it exactly. I don't care how many dice you have for infiltration. If you want to walk in front of someone in plain sight without being seen thats an invisibility spell. Stealth lets you sneak around, time the pattern in the guards patrol to know when to dash, recognize where the holes in the security sensor coverage are, etc. But you can't just open a door that someone is staring at and walk through "unnoticed" no matter how stealthy you are.

Posted by: CanRay May 28 2011, 05:16 AM

That's why you flip from Ice Cold to Pink Mohawk. Why bother opening the door when a shape charge of Bangalores works so much better.

Posted by: Seth May 28 2011, 09:05 AM

Wow what a lot of answers in a short time. As the OP I think its fair to give a summary of the answers, and how I feel about them:

"Use them as Talkers: Go send a message to this person"
How does the watcher find the person? The only possible answer is "you will find him at <address> ", astral tracking or the search power (which Watchers don't have) . So astral tracking requires assenssing and 1 hour. Going to the address requires at least one hit on area knowledge (which I would be happy to assume the watcher has: at level 1). So 1 time in three we have the critical glitch, and thats always funny with messages. And whats the chance that the watcher will hit a background count of 1 on route and be disrupted?

"Watch this door opening"
Sorry thats what infiltration skill is all about. You just have trick / conceal / distract the watcher. Infiltration is not invisibility it's knowing how to get into place, and the idea that a thing with attribute + skill = 2 can stop a 20 die infiltrator I find...strange. I also think that the watchers will be reporting a lot of false positives (just make a roll to see if its spotted anything in the last hour...oops a critical glitch)

"You can always aspect them to make them more useful in their "Watching" role"
I am away from books at the moment, I shall go and look into this. I hadn't heard of aspecting them before.

"Mages are already overpowered, don't give them more"
Was also an interesting argument. You either agree with it or not, but basically its saying get rid of watchers.

"Use them in packs"
Good idea, I need to think how to do it. Assist other bonus's are interesting.

While thinking about it, I realised that I had forgotten to include the actively looking bonus in my calculation. This increases the number of die the watcher rolls from 2 to 5. At 5 die they no longer are totally and utterly rubbish.

My feelings so far, although I hope the conversation continues, is that they are so rubbish they are better removed from the game. I don't like as a GM the effort of explaining to a player that his cunning plan involving watchers will almost certainly go wrong because the watcher is rubbish and will probably critically glitch. I don't want the hassle as a player of summoning one just to watch failure after failure, and have the watcher screw up my plans with its critical failures.

Posted by: Seth May 28 2011, 09:08 AM

Its off topic, but I only half agree.

The player needs to come up with a way to influence the guard to move, be distracted...etc. And that's one of the main uses of the infiltration skill. Watcher or not, someone with a lot of infiltration skill should be able to sort it out. Of course you might not know that the watcher exists...which makes it more interesting. But don't forget that the watcher is so rubbish that it will be reporting a lot of false positives "the door moved master", "not again you fool...I'm eating dinner and its the 5th false alarm tonight"

Posted by: Ranarion May 28 2011, 09:34 AM

how often do they glitch with their 7 dice?

2 basics, +3 activly looking, +2 obvios Object.

And if you let them sit there for Hours, they just use the rule to buy success.. 1 is always there, so the Watcher recognize the Door is opened, he may not see the reason because the guys is stealthy, but the Door aint got a stealth roll. No false-alarm also.

Posted by: Bobby May 28 2011, 09:45 AM

Search is one of the main uses of watchers!

Posted by: baronspam May 28 2011, 12:41 PM

Unless your infiltrator is also able to perceive astral, he probably doesn't know the watcher exists. Infiltration skill might let you find an air duct to crawl through to get around the room, it might let you realize that room is a choke point and a likely spot for magical security and you should go another way. But if the only way is to open door A, walk through room, and open door B to get out, you are hosed. It doesn't matter how stealthy or tricky you are light still bouces off your hide and you still have a signature in astral space. Watchers might not be the brightest things, but they don't blink, they don't text message their girlfriends, the don't go to the bathroom, take coffee breaks, or spend their shift watching AR porn on their comlinks. You can't spoof a phone call to them and they don't care if you tossed a pebble around the corner, because thier instructions said to watch the door, not listen for pebbles. In some ways they are easier to handle than metahuman guards because they won't go investigate things outside of their orders. In fact, if the instructions said to watch the door they probably don't care if you cut a hole in the wall with a monfiliment chainsaw or make more noise than a heard of elephants crawling in the unility space above the ceiling tiles. But if they have been told to watch a door then your only real choice is to have the mage banish it or dont use the bloody door.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 28 2011, 01:46 PM

Not sure about aspect, but there is a bit about attuning them to a specific astral shadow or aura in digital grimoire (a pdf only release, and therefor often overlooked).

This then makes it "easier" for them to find and keep tabs on the subject. One can also use material links and similar, with the accompanying modifiers.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 28 2011, 01:48 PM

Yep, it is Attuning, not aspecting... I mistakenly referenced the Wrong Term, and Wrong Book (what happens when you do not have access to your boks)... Thanks Hobgoblin...

Posted by: Seth May 28 2011, 02:50 PM

Awesome. I was AFB so I didn't realise that. Of course they get 2 die to search...and critically glitch 1/3

Posted by: Seth May 28 2011, 02:59 PM

You cannot have the mage banish it: thats the same as letting the watcher do its thing.

I can see that we don't agree on what the infiltration skill does. You think its about moving silently, and sneaking. I think its about being able to break into places without being observed and being able to distract observers. It doesn't matter that much that we don't agree: its the GMs opinion that counts.

The door example isn't really real anyway. Doors are opened and closed often: thats the nature of doors. I guess very occasionally that might be useful but its an extremely small use. So we've worked out that they are not good for finding people and talking to. They are mostly rubbish at spotting people. The are disrupted at the slightest background count. Concealment just stops them dead in their tracks...etc

I guess we have also worked out that they can watch a door and see if it opens... I have to admit that I am not very excited about that.

I think I stand by the "they are so rubbish we might as well get rid of them from the game" but YMMV

Posted by: Seth May 28 2011, 02:59 PM

You cannot have the mage banish it: thats the same as letting the watcher do its thing.

I can see that we don't agree on what the infiltration skill does. You think its about moving silently, and sneaking. I think its about being able to break into places without being observed and being able to distract observers. It doesn't matter that much that we don't agree: its the GMs opinion that counts.

The door example isn't really real anyway. Doors are opened and closed often: thats the nature of doors. I guess very occasionally that might be useful but its an extremely small use. So we've worked out that they are not good for finding people and talking to. They are mostly rubbish at spotting people. The are disrupted at the slightest background count. Concealment just stops them dead in their tracks...etc

I guess we have also worked out that they can watch a door and see if it opens... I have to admit that I am not very excited about that.

I think I stand by the "they are so rubbish we might as well get rid of them from the game" but YMMV

Posted by: Beetle May 28 2011, 03:29 PM

The Secret Handshake detection spell from Spy Games (pg161) is great for watchers. In fact, the shadowtalk makes direct mention of this making another use for watchers.

Posted by: Fortinbras May 28 2011, 04:01 PM

I know the number of hits on a Summoning for Watchers determines how long it sticks around in hours, but does it also determine the number of tasks it has like a regular spirit?
In addition to that, does binging a Watcher simply add to the hours it sticks around or does it keep it indefinitely until it's tasks are done?

Posted by: baronspam May 28 2011, 06:25 PM

There are lots of ways infiltration can get you around the watcher. The above mentioned air vent, finding another route through the complex by studying the floor plans, tricking the guards into running through the door for you to get the watcher to go report back the the mage, probably other things as well. That all falls under the "being tricky" part of infiltration, rather than the "being stealthy" part of infiltration. But if the watcher is watching the door, and you walk through the door, no amount of sneaky-tricky stuff will save you. You don't need to roll perception to see someone standing in plain sight in front of you. They are right bloody there. Infiltration can do alot of things but it can't make you invisible to someone who is looking directly at you when you have no cover. Thats like asking somone to make a perception check to find their cup of soycaf on the table in front of them. Unless its really dark, or you are really drunk, I am pretty sure that is an automatic success.

And when did we work out that watchers are not good at finding people? The do in fact have the search power, as was pointed out earlier in the thread. An air elemental would probably be better at it, but they have more drain to resist to. You get what you pay for.

Posted by: Adarael May 28 2011, 07:03 PM

If there is a consistently well-lit hallway 30 meters long, 2 meters wide, and 3 meters tall, there is no way someone is going to be able to roll infiltration alone to traverse from the entrance on one end of the hallway to the other, and have the guard at that end not see them. Similarly, you cannot use *only* infiltration to slip through a monitored decontamination room (such as this one: http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-m2/h2o2-clean-room-sluice-470712.jpg ) while a guard watches, because there is no place to hide - you will be apparent to the guard immediately upon entry. Infiltration is a powerful, requisite skill, but it cannot work miracles. In the same vein, you cannot use Con alone to convince someone to kill themselves, Pilot Aircraft to land if your plane has lost both its wings, Navigation if you have no means of setting reference points, or Tracking if your target has left (literally) no trace.

Situations where Infiltration or other skills automatically fail are rare, and should be, because they decrease player agency. But they exist. Sometimes, skills simply cannot be applied.

Posted by: Udoshi May 29 2011, 11:56 PM

I had a mystic adept that used watchers like remote control kids toys.

Using the Passenger spell(from digital grimoire, which is like borrow sense but for all senses at a higher drain) on the spirit meant the adept could keep an eye on the spirit, see what it was doing in real time and, more importantly, use their own Perception skill.

Since watcher spirits Services are measured in Hours, not Tasks, the adept could update the watchers orders whenever it needed to do something different.

So, basically, a remote control spirit car.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 29 2011, 11:57 PM

I wonder which senses exactly you're borrowing from a watcher. I assume that, like all spirits, they basically just use native astral perception for everything.

Posted by: Udoshi May 30 2011, 12:16 AM

Borrow sense specifically mentions being able to borrow astral sight(but because its one sense only, you get either sight or astral sight), which makes it a clever way to get the ability to see the astral as an adept without the Power for it.

Its either in street magic or the RC, but spirits do possess regular senses to use their Perception skill with. (someone in our party plays a free spirit, its come up a few times)


Using Passenger, you get all of that at once. Drain code could be better, though.

Posted by: CanRay May 30 2011, 12:56 AM

"OK, go look and see if there's someone sleeping in the passenger's seat of the car following us, then report back. ... There is? Look again, and see if he has a plug like this," *Holds up the Deckers/Hackers Datajack* "Plugged into his skull. ... He does? Go back and pull it out."

*Car chasing us has the driver suffer Dumpshock and falls out of control before the Pilot Program kicks in*

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 12:56 AM

Let me know if you find that page ref.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 08:40 AM

I like it, but there's a hitch: Watchers don't have Materialization, only Manifestation.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 30 2011, 08:45 AM

An astral being being able to use a Perception skill while Dual Natured without penalty is much the same as a a Mage using Assensing skill while astrally perceiving or projecting.

If you believe the Mage grows "Spirit Eyeballs" of the astrally perceiving variety while projecting or perceiving, then of course spirits can also grow metahuman eyeballs to perceive mundane things.

The ability to mechanically roll the dice for "Perception" does not automatically confer the physical organs of the perceiver. It just means they can use the skill.

"As with other dual-natured entities, a spirit’s ethereal senses are able
to sense both worlds without incurring modifiers for acting on
both planes at the same time."

"Spirits may use both Perception and Astral Perception skills
as normal."

But it doesn't explain why, it just simply says they can use the skill.


In fact, earlier in the general description of spirits.

"A free spirit, in its materialized form, is made of energy in
the form of a set of coherent forces. These forces effect the space
around it, giving it the illusion of shape, mass, and appearance."

and

"A free spirit has the “look and feel” of a physical
being, based on the form it took before it became free, but it is
not made of the materials that appear to make it up; “skin” will
not tan or sunburn, “iron” will not be attracted to magnets."

So while a Spirit can clearly operate while Manifest and use Perception skill, it's not because it has "regular" senses, but because it can reasonably interpret the mundane world.

As an additional item, if a spirit could use "regular" senses, why don't they work on Electronic Projections on screens? Wouldn't this clearly work if they did have a regular sense? It's just a picture isn't it? If they had regular eyeballs when Manifest there should be no reason it wouldn't work?

"Note, however, that spirits are unable
to see or interpret simsense, electronic projections on screens,
or AR displays."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 30 2011, 02:30 PM

The Following Spirits have them...
Spirits of Beasts...
Spirits of Man...

Therefore, both of these spirit types have Normal Senses in addition to Astral Sight. Can't argue with the Book.
Of course, a Watcher does not have them....

Posted by: Makki May 30 2011, 03:27 PM

summon five watcher spirits and get a +5 dice pool modifier for friends in melee in astral combat.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 03:35 PM

Sort of: all spirits have their native astral sense (works fine for most everything), and nothing else unless otherwise noted (Enhanced Senses).

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 03:39 PM

Possession of that critter power doesn't mean the critter has all the senses that the power can boost - just that if the critter has any of those senses, it'll be boosted.

I'm fairly certain spirits hear sound. Useful for giving orders, crucial if you're going to loan a spirit to someone, and because there's no mention of difficulties in talking to spirits, I believe they can hear.

I wouldn't be surprised if they lacked smell; it's not like they breathe, after all. Same for taste; they don't eat physical food, so why would they have taste?

Spirits can be hurt and can materialize, so I'm guessing they have a good analogue for a sense of touch.

Sight is a bit iffish... It makes a lot of sense that they'd basically use Astral Perception most of the time. It's much more natural to them. It's the sense most open to argument.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 30 2011, 04:00 PM

Well astral perception is not really visual, it is just the most handy analogy to use.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 04:15 PM

See, I'm fine with all orders being given over the mage-spirit mystic link, and no 'lending' spirits to anyone.

I agree this is all up in the air, but it's more satisfying for them to be astral-sense-only in the basic package, then upgrade from there. It gives spirits a fun, flavorful limitation.

Posted by: Modular Man May 30 2011, 05:26 PM

After all, watchers do have a voice of sorts if they manifest themselves. So a sense of hearing might be appropriate, too. They won't hear sounds made by any technology.

Should've thought of that, would have given my character an edge in combat with that crazy awakened alligator. Thanks!
Watchers also work as distractions: have two or three of them scream right beneath your opponents ear in the middle of a gunfight!
Basically, it's sometimes useful to have some watchers around. Sadly, they can't take the shortcut via a metaplane to get to you and, well, don't bother explaining them the way to you...

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 05:36 PM

I think that distracting enemies is exactly the reason they can be counted as "friends in melee". They're not doing much else, after all.

The nice thing is that watchers still have 9 health boxes - enough that you actually need to make an effort to destroy them (not too much, but on the other hand they don't materialize, so they're hard to touch.)

Posted by: Mardrax May 30 2011, 06:15 PM

The feeling of pain in the general sense is only very partially an actual sense. Also, I'd like to see something that says spirits can actually feel it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu May 30 2011, 06:16 PM

What we do know is they take wound penalties, whatever that 'really means'.

Posted by: CanRay May 30 2011, 08:20 PM

Well, there goes my plan if the person was driving old skool. "Bite him on the nose. Hard."

Oh oh oh!!! Won't work for jacked-in drivers (Or ones with Cyberoptics) "Materialize so that all he can see if you!"

I don't care how good your AR camera view is, when a Water Spirit has his bare bottom pressed up against the surface of your EYEBALLS yelling out, "I HAD AZ-TEX-MEX FOR LUNCH, MOTHER-SLOTTER!" at the top of his very loud lungs...

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 08:34 PM

They can certainly distract. Which might be good for a -2 penalty or so. And since they only Manifest, they're pretty close to impossible for non-mages to get rid of - they're not physical enough to attack without being dual-natured, but visible enough to harass.

Sending them to swarm on enemies is pretty useful, a good way to demoralize the enemy, or to collect some bonuses that start to add up after three or so Watchers.

Posted by: CanRay May 30 2011, 08:37 PM

Distraction is good. Being right in someone's face BLINDS said person. Which is a much less subtle but far more effective distraction.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 08:43 PM

I'm not sure a non-physical thing can really blind you, because you could just walk right through it. I went for the -2 penalty because that's comparable to aggressive AR spam. The watchers are even more mobile and adaptable, but AR spam tends to have content that gets to you, like "Bubba the Love Troll X: Going In Back For More" trailers when you're trying to pick out the perfect Christmas gift for your kid sister.

Posted by: CanRay May 30 2011, 08:45 PM

I don't know, that does sound like a pretty good gift for a kid sister...

Posted by: hobgoblin May 31 2011, 02:04 AM

quite the family.

Posted by: CanRay May 31 2011, 02:19 AM

It's "Shadowrun". The Big Brother in this case shoots people in the face for money!

Quite the family, indeed!

Posted by: darthmord Jun 2 2011, 03:07 PM

I remember story fluff in one of the books that talked about watchers where the watcher came bounding back to its summoner to report what a person said only to blip out of existence because its time ran out. Right before it vanished, it said "Hey boss! She said..." (poof)

Posted by: darthmord Jun 2 2011, 03:11 PM

A non-physical thing can still cause variable amounts of cover from nothing to total cover. It really depends on how much of your field of view is blocked by the manifesting spirit.

I'd lean toward cover penalties over blinding for that reason alone. You can still see, you just cannot see your target clearly because of LOS obstructions like a Watcher mooning you up close and in your face.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 2 2011, 03:45 PM

I think that was in Grimoire 2ed, where they introduced Watchers.

Posted by: Fyndhal Jun 2 2011, 06:06 PM

Wouldn't the caster has to be Astrally Perceiving/Projecting himself for this to work?

Posted by: Modular Man Jun 2 2011, 08:45 PM

Indeed. Otherwise the caster would not be able to cast anything on the astral plane anyway, let alone cast this specific spell on a watcher. A materialized spirit, on the other hand...
The very idea itself is still great, as adepts are not able to project.