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Posted by: hyphz May 30 2011, 04:44 PM

Hi folks,

First of all, hello everyone and thanks for letting me join

It's looking like I'm going to be running a Shadowrun game for my group in the forseeable future. (Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition is the one I have which doesn't seem to have a version icon) I've GMed before, but never Shadowrun, and I don't know to what extent the players have played it either. I knew a bit about the setting before I started. So can I ask for some tips about how things work:

First. Maps. We're coming from D&D 4E where everything is about maps. Some of the sample adventures have maps but most of them don't. Is SR generally run with maps or without and if it's without, how do you deal with players asking for exact ranges?

Secondly, I'm a bit baffled about some of the rules on the Matrix. Specifically:
- If you have Commlink + Simsense + Trodes, you can access AR *or* VR, right? Or is it just VR? I'm just left wondering why anyone buys Monocles/Goggles/AR Gloves when Simsense is just plain cheaper and does all the same things.
- Some of the sample characters seem to have bits missing - some have Commlink + Simsense but no Trodes for instance. Does a Datalink substitute?
- Can you have a Smartlink but no Commlink?
- Commlinks have variable Matrix scores, but part of the text also states that Commlinks substitute for Personal Credsticks, and the Device table says that Credsticks would have Device 6. How's that resolved? I presume the intention isn't that people can gain money by hacking their own Commlink!
- I don't really want to use the add-on books until I've gotten used to running things with just the core, but the FAQ references Unwired stating that one way to stop Cyberware being hacked is to "keep Signal low". But there are no rules letting you choose the Matrix stats of your cyberware, you just get the Device rating based on its Grade. Which paradoxically means that Deltaware, with its higher Device rating, is more easily hacked than the basic stuff (yes, it has higher security too but that can be broken by a high skilled hacker whereas needing to be obviously sitting right next to the guy's cyberarm to hack it is kind of a general dealbreaker)
- Another issue is that an awful lot of the electronics/Matrix rules talk about PANs but most of the items described as having PAN interaction don't have any specific rule saying that their user must have a Commlink. What happens if, when you realize that your smartgun or cyberarm or whatever has been hacked, you throw your commlink on the floor and shoot it? Or you just don't have one in the first place?

Thanks very much!

Posted by: Summerstorm May 30 2011, 05:07 PM

Phew... some questions you got there. Well... let's get to it (i will clearly be ninjaed though...)

Maps: I HATE the 5 foot- grids of D&D with a PASSION. Telling someone that he can't attack, because he is literally ONE step away is frustrating. I myself keep it fluid and uncertain. I do have floor plans but i guesstimate the ranges and movement speed. But i am pretty good at that, and normaly all people are satisfied with it.

Questions:
1. Aye, both possible (if i am not wrong) But if you have the "possibility" to enter VR, someone can hack you up, force you VR and black hammer you (He needs to be fast of course). Also a lot of people don't really want to keep trodes on all the time.

2. Which brings us to this. A datajack is fully superior to trodes (Fluff/style reasons mostly, but a lot of convinience is in it too)

3. Sure, of course. Smartlink is just the system for the eyes and the gun... how you connect them is entirely your business. Most professionals here use a skinlink connection on their datajack and their gun. But you can got through wireless internal comlink or cable too.

4. THAT is a good question. The whole "paying wireless" and "how much money do i have on my comlink" etc. is VERY vague and VERY vulnerable. I myself do it the safe way: You can load up on creds at your bank, where the security is much higher and carry money in small sums with you from there. Bigger transactions have to be tripple-verified and take more time. So overall: no you can't just "Take all their money with hacking their tiny rating 2 comlink". Big sums will be transfered as certified credsticks (there are rules for forgery there, at least)

5. Eh... First: if not neccessary you can just "deactivate wireless"... something EVERYBODY does with their cyberware, for example. You can also just dial down the signal strength too... but then you can lose connection fast, of course.

5. Internal cyberware is hardwired into your nervous system... and there YOU have the last word. Just restart it - dumping the intruder and all connections. Other devices you can manually restart too. The guy with the button always has the last say in "On/Off". But yeah, electronic warfarte is very viable. So when you are running a "Tacnet" for example, or just have a conference/radio link to your team at all times... something can come in and mess around.

Posted by: James McMurray May 30 2011, 06:05 PM

Don't thank everyone, it was a close vote...

First. Maps. We're coming from D&D 4E where everything is about maps. Some of the sample adventures have maps but most of them don't. Is SR generally run with maps or without and if it's without, how do you deal with players asking for exact ranges?


We draw a fight out only if it's going to be a very tactical assault. When we do I use 1m squares unless the fight is in a really big area, then it's 2m.

If we didn't draw it out and they want exact ranges I just guesstimate it. If your group insists on a map because they're used to the minis and don't want to change, you may want to just draw it for every fight. But if they're open to change, SR works really well for freeform combat. The ranges are big enough that you don't have to count squares to see how many targets are inside your close burst 2, and forced movement is almost non-existent.

- If you have Commlink + Simsense + Trodes, you can access AR *or* VR, right? Or is it just VR? I'm just left wondering why anyone buys Monocles/Goggles/AR Gloves when Simsense is just plain cheaper and does all the same things.

AR or VR

- Some of the sample characters seem to have bits missing - some have Commlink + Simsense but no Trodes for instance. Does a Datalink substitute?

Anything that can supply DNI lets you use simsense. This includes trodes, a datajack, skinlinks, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

- Can you have a Smartlink but no Commlink?

Yes. The smartlink can talk directly to your imagelink (glasses, contacts, or cybereyes).

- Commlinks have variable Matrix scores, but part of the text also states that Commlinks substitute for Personal Credsticks, and the Device table says that Credsticks would have Device 6. How's that resolved? I presume the intention isn't that people can gain money by hacking their own Commlink!

I assume the actual money transfer would use rating 6, regardless of the commlink's rating.

- I don't really want to use the add-on books until I've gotten used to running things with just the core, but the FAQ references Unwired stating that one way to stop Cyberware being hacked is to "keep Signal low". But there are no rules letting you choose the Matrix stats of your cyberware, you just get the Device rating based on its Grade. Which paradoxically means that Deltaware, with its higher Device rating, is more easily hacked than the basic stuff (yes, it has higher security too but that can be broken by a high skilled hacker whereas needing to be obviously sitting right next to the guy's cyberarm to hack it is kind of a general dealbreaker)

I don't know if there are rules in Unwired for lowering your signal. I think the idea is that you have control over all of your stuff. If you want to make it weaker, you're allowed.

- Another issue is that an awful lot of the electronics/Matrix rules talk about PANs but most of the items described as having PAN interaction don't have any specific rule saying that their user must have a Commlink. What happens if, when you realize that your smartgun or cyberarm or whatever has been hacked, you throw your commlink on the floor and shoot it? Or you just don't have one in the first place?

If you don't have a commlink you're a nonentity. You can't even buy a soda from a machine because you can't pay for it. You can't see the menu at a restaurant. Your Johnson can't call you to offer you a job. A commlink in 2072 is like your smartphone, wallet, personal secretary, television, radio, PC, etc. If a player insists on not having a commlink then they've got much larger problems then worrying about their smartgun getting hacked.

In general, cyberware has a signal rating of 0 so that techs can access it when they need to. If it's external (a cyberarm, a datajack, etc.) it may not have a signal rating at all, since the techs can plug into it directly. In any case, you can turn the wireless off on your cyberware, and just turn it on every so often to check for system updates.

God idea on waiting for the splatbooks, by the way. The system has enough complexities already without introducing the other rulesets, especially until you've got a handle on balance because every new rulebook introduces some craziness.

Posted by: Sengir May 30 2011, 06:06 PM

Rule of thumb. I often use floor plans of buildings I know (just snap a photo of the evacuation plan) for orientation, but not for exact distances.


To access the matrix via simsense you need three components: A commlink, a sim module, and some kind of DNI (direct neural interface) to connect the sim module to your brain. The latter can be done via trodes, a datajack, or by implanting the whole module.
Skinlink on the other hand does not cut it, this is merely a technique for transmitting data between two devices using the conductivity of the skin. You may of course use a skinlink to have the sim module strapped to your left arm talk to the Datajack on your right temple

AR glasses and gloves may be expensive and impractical, but has that ever stopped people from using something? Maybe they are also scared of having stuff mess with their brain.


-Yes
-This is about certified credsticks, which are still around. In general, just consider them to be magically unhackable
-Change Linked Device Mode explicitly allows you to switch of the wireless on anything you have DNI to with a Free Action. Which is the case for any installed cyberware, otherwise you couldn't move your cyberarm
- The commlink is the central remote control for your PAN devices. Without one you could probably use manual controls on the devices, but this is of course time-consuming (complex action)
-- If somebody has taken control of your TV and you break your remote...well...

Posted by: Fatum May 30 2011, 07:02 PM

The rules for forging nuyen are in Unwired. Let's just say they do not involve hacking your own commlink.
Fluff-wise, that's because the sum you have on your account, be it certified cred or whatever, is verified by searching multiple databases tracking financial transactions; I believe.

You can live without a commlink, since most places still accept certified credsticks, and there are holographic interfaces, touch-based interfaces and basically any other interfaces you can think of in addition to AR you won't be able to see; but I wouldn't call that life really comfortable.

And yeah, skinlink is not an interface for simsense; what comes to AR glasses and gloves, you're most likely wearing pimped-out glasses or sporting cybereyes anyway, why not use them; and unless you have DNI, I'd say trodes are easier to spot than AR-gloves, and AR-gloves are easier to overlook thanks to their omnipresence.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 07:19 PM

Come on in, we'll try not to bite




Exact maps usually aren't all that necessary. It's very useful to have a clear sketch of how a building works, where the exits, security checkpoints etcetera are, but measurements are rarely all that important. The main use is so that the players can more easily hash out a plan for how they get in, and to show who's standing where in a fight.

Here are some interesting articles about more light-weight maps: http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/prep-lite-maps and http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/more-prep-lite-maps-classic-crawls. I haven't tried out this method yet, but it looks very useful if you need to make maps quickly or need to map huge buildings with lots of uninteresting rooms - it focuses on the important stuff.





It's a bit like PCs, notebooks, smartphones and so forth - convenient interfaces. For VR you need a Sim Module (which renders the Matrix for you), some interface (trodes, datajack, AR gloves, image link) to let you see it, and something to actually run your software on (commlink).

AR is mostly the same, except you can skip the Sim Module. Note that there are some bigger devices (like a Simrig) which also contain a Sim Module.




The premade characters have been known to contain serious character building flaws, so don't take them as too-excellent examples. But a datajack does substitute for trodes; it's like an USB/ethernet port concealed behind your ear.



Yes, but more importantly: you need to have a smartlink both on the gun and in some sort of interface device (cybereyes, contact lenses, glasses...), so you that you can interact with the gun's targeting datafeed.



This hasn't been said to clearly, but my take on it is this:

The money isn't actually on the credstick. The money is in a bank, and the credstick has a list of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad hardcoded in it to match an account on that bank; you can use them to send the bank orders to transfer the money to other accounts. Since these orders are encrypted in a mathematically proven secure manner, it's hopeless to try to spoof transfer orders; you must have the credstick's secret information to make transfers.

So if someone hacks the credstick, they can still clean out the account, but they haven't actually hacked the bank account, they just got access to the credit card.




Hacking cyberware was a dumb idea they came up with so that hackers would try to hack people in combat. It's dumb because nobody worth hacking would be stupid enough to leave their cyberware's wireless transmitters on. And you can't hack what you can't connect to. So in Unwired they quietly retconned the whole thing and said that cyberware with even a whiff of security applications comes with the wireless disabled.

If you sit down next to a street sam, grab your screwdriver and manually connect, sure, you could try to hack him. (If he lets you.) But wireless hacking of cyberware only works if the cyborg is truly incompetent



One way to increase security is to separate important systems.
Your smartlinked gun has a Cybersafety (Arsenal/Augmentation; it's an implant in your hand that connects to the gun. The gun only works if it's being held by someone with the correct Cybersafety implant. The implant doesn't cost Essence, and connects the Smartlink to you too) or a Skinlink (core book), neither of which can be connected to with wireless.
Your implants have had the wifi antennas physically removed. They connect through wires in your body with a socket such as a Datajack. It all connects to a "secret" commlink through Skinlink (or the commlink is actually implanted.) The secret commlink is never used to connect to the outside world directly, but just in case, it has a Firewall 6 and an Agent with the highest Analyze you can get running in it. The whole node is encrypted and has a data bomb set on it. It connects via wires to the Gatekeeper commlink; only someone who gets through the Gatekeeper can even find out it's there, let alone hack it.
Then there's the Gatekeeper commlink: again secured to the hilt, but this is the node you use to communicate with your team with. Don't use it for frivolous things, and shut it off when you're not running, just to cut down on people's chances to notice its existence or probe it.
Finally, there's the Decoy commlink. Not too secure, but not implausibly easy to hack either, it has all sorts of fake data on it. Because cops get suspicious if you don't have any commlink; this one is just to make you look like a normal person.

Now, if it should happen that someone hacks the Gatekeeper commlink, just shut its power off. You'll be running in "autistic mode", as Ghost in the Shell calls it - no way to connect to you, so you can't be hacked. (Remember: the Secret commlink doesn't connect to the Matrix, it just runs all your PAN devices.)

There are two reasons to be less paranoid-radio silent; communication with teammates and a TacNet (Unwired). But if you appear to be hacked, or someone's trying to hack you and it doesn't look good, just cut their access off.

Posted by: Sengir May 30 2011, 08:31 PM

AR gloves are for AR, as the name says. For VR you need to plug your brain into the matrix, no alternatives

Posted by: DireRadiant May 30 2011, 08:34 PM

Shadowrun is primarily a "cinematic" style game, maps are fantastic for helping visualize the setting or area where action is taking place. It's not a tactical style game where every meter moved matters or has some direct mechanical implication. You'll in fact find some disturbing things when you try sprinting for example. Use a map, but focus on it providing a description of the environment where things are happening, and as the playground where you and the players can use your imagination to describe why that PC Stealth roll worked when there is so little cover on the map, or how that antique chair saved that PC's life when they used Edge to survive that grenade going off at their feet.

Posted by: Ascalaphus May 30 2011, 08:49 PM

Well, you're right, sorta. Somehow I had the idea ghosting around in my head that you could experience simsense without any DNI, but I guess I was wrong about that.

Of course, to confuse things, if you happen to use AR through DNI, you still can't be affected by biofeedback...

Posted by: redwulf25 May 31 2011, 02:47 AM

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that monocles/goggles/etc. can have visual enhancements (like low light, thermographic vision, microscopic vision, etc.) added to them. It can save essence if you're awakened, emerged, or just a little short after shoving in a bunch of other cybernetics.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 31 2011, 09:45 AM

No, well sort of. Your smart linked gun needs to on your pan. The only explicitly sstated way to have/manipulate a PAN is your comlink. As you can see from what others have posted a lot of people feel differently, likely due to not actually reading. Would I allow someone to connect their smartlinked eyes via their datajack to their gun, surely.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 02:20 PM

Actually, No. Neither your Smartlink, nor your Smartlinked Gun needs to be on your PAN. They can be direct linked through Skinlink, completely bypassing the PAN and the Comlink. Which is actually in the Rules there LurkerOutThere...

Posted by: Fatum May 31 2011, 03:05 PM

Smartlinks were around long before the commlinks or the PANs.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 31 2011, 03:40 PM

Go cite it and come back to me, I for my part, will go look for the thread i already found my citations in and save time. It's a mostly academic argument but it's one i'm rather proud of as i'm tired of people saying "dur hur skinlink and goggles" as a good way to obsolete cybereyes.

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 03:51 PM

Except that skinlink and goggles are a good way to obsolete cybereyes.

Smartlink requires image link (SR4A 333)
Imagelink displays visual information, usually via the PAN but other methods are possible (SR4A 333)
Skinlink bypasses wireless connections but is limited by touch (SR4A 328)

With skinlink on your goggles and your smartgun you don't need the wireless connection. There's nothing anywhere I could find about a smartlink needing a commlink, though it's usually safer to slave it to your commlink, since the commlink's defenses are probably higher than your smartlink (on the off chance that some hacker decides to be funny with your smartlink). However, if skinlinked there's no chance of hacking anyway.

Cybereyes for a smartlink disappeared as soon as they made the benefits for having glasses be the same. Some people still go that route for flavor or because they want their vision enhancements to be always available, but it's nowhere near still required.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 31 2011, 03:58 PM

And it should be but that's Magicrun 4th Edition for you. I'm still digging for my sources but smartlink via goggles and the like still looses out on the ability to eject clip or change firing mode as a free action (p.58 unwired). not the end of the world but can certainly provide a tactical advantage.

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 04:01 PM

Do you know that pseudo-slurs (like "Magicrun") make people less likely to pay attention to any valid points you might have?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:04 PM

Never said it obsoleted Cybereyes. You can install a Skinlink in your Eyes, after all.
It IS Cheaper than Cybereyes to use a pair of Skinlinked Goggles, thoguh...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:06 PM

Yes, without the DNI, you do lose some functionality of the Smartlink. No Worries though. It is definitely a Tactical Advantage for the DNI route, to be sure.

Posted by: Sengir May 31 2011, 04:13 PM

Sure, but you still need a way to control those devices (like for example ejecting a clip). And unless you want to poke around on lots of tiny buttons, that means using a commlink as the central control device of you PAN.

Posted by: Bigity May 31 2011, 04:17 PM

Do smart goggles grant the same bonus as a smartlink now? I was sure they used to be less of a benefit compared to the full on implanted smartgun link. Still working my way current on SR4 rules.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:18 PM

Unless you do not care about the Free action cacpabilities gained from the Smartlink. Not everyone does, you know...
After all, you cannot eject a clip from a Revolver. And if there is only a Single Firing Mode, well, being able to change firing mode is useless to you as well...

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 04:18 PM

Definitely. I never said anything about not needing a PAN, just not needing wireless for a smartlink. I'd be upset if I had to live without a smartphone these days. I can't imagine what it'd be like trying to live without a commlink in 2072.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:20 PM

As of SR4, Smartlinks are no different from each other in the Bonuses department (All are +2). Non-DNI solutions still suffer by not having the capabilities of the Free Actions that the Smartlink grants.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:21 PM

Smart Phones are overrated... Never owned one (Still do not own a Cell Phone), and don't plan to start now...

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 04:23 PM

I thought that too, until I owned one. I'm not saying it's a necessity, but it's definitely made my life vastly easier.

Granted, if I was paying for my phone I'd have gone a much cheaper route.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:24 PM

Easier in what way, though. I just do not think that anyone should be able to reach me, 24/7/365.

Posted by: Bigity May 31 2011, 04:29 PM

Bah I always thought it was a nice little bonus to the wired. Oh well there are always house rules.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere May 31 2011, 04:32 PM

Possibly, but more and more this is how I feel. Shadowrun has always favored the magic side of the house 4th edition just finally pushed it over that limit so I'm not going to censor myself to try and earn debate points, because what I think obviously doesn't matter. Cyber is now passe, wires that need to pass information through your hair and skull are the equal of their implanted equivalent, non ware gives the exact same bonuses as ware, defeating technical sensors with magic is just a matter of increasing the drain value, no dragon has ever been definatively killed by military force even when they go all Gojira style in downtown Denver. One of the best builds you can get right now for a hacker is a physical adept, cyberware is hackable, computers speficly military targeting computers can be magicly hacked etc etc.

It's weird because I recognized it's a game but every time I sit down and think about this particular aspect of SR and it's evolution I can't help but feel that somethign intrinsic to the game has become flawed, and that makes me legitimately sad, so therefore Magicrun.

Posted by: Sengir May 31 2011, 04:33 PM

Just that the vision enhancement does not bestow any free actions, it just provides the +2 aiming bonus displays a lot of status data (go ahead, read the description). In order to command a device to do something with a free action, you need some sort of input device - like an implanted smartlink (implants can be controlled via DNI), AR gloves, or a sim module.

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 04:38 PM

I don't think they should be able to either. Luckily smartphones (and all cell phones for that matter) have this fancy new doodad called volume control.

Easier in that if I want to know something, I reach into my pocket and ask google. If I need to remember something (I have a horrible memory for times, dates, appointments, etc.) I reach into my pocket and put it into my calendar. If I think of something I want to tell my wife, but that isn't important enough to stick in the forefront of my mind until I see her again, I reach into my pocket and shoot her a text. If I'm bored but can't go somewhere (like stuck on a bus or in a line) I reach into my pocket and find a free game to play, surf these boards, or browse http://www.sciencedaily.com/ depending on how mentally active I feel that moment. My A/C in my car doesn't work so my windows are always down, which makes listening to the radio on my 45 minute drive to work an impossibility so I reach into my pocket, put on some headphones, and listen to audiobooks instead.

It's by no means a necessity, but it's a luxury that's very easy to get used to.

Back to the commlinks though, they're even more integral to life in 2072. They're all of the above and also how you buy a soda or a sweatshirt since a lot of places don't take certified cred anymore (and you're probably not going to be paid on a stick unless it's under the table). Their DNI connection is probably better entertainment than the trideo set you've got at home. If http://www.amazon.com/Shallows-What-Internet-Doing-Brains/dp/0393072223 is even close to right, another 60 years of constant internet connectivity has probably destroyed the average person's memory and attention span.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:43 PM

Yes, I know... And Commanding the device is not always desireable, or possible (As the example I provided shows). Using a Free action on something that cannot support that Free Action is kind of pointless, don't you think?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:47 PM

All very good points. And all very Understandable. And yet, I am still unconvinced...

As for the Comlink in Shadowrun. I can agree completely.

Posted by: James McMurray May 31 2011, 04:49 PM

That's ok. I wasn't trying to convince you, just answering your question.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein May 31 2011, 04:50 PM

Heh... No Worries. I know a lot of people who swear by their electronic devices...

Posted by: redwulf25 May 31 2011, 05:59 PM

Yep. Just like trodes cost less than a datajack and don't reduce your essence but have no drawbacks.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 31 2011, 06:01 PM

That's why they come with an off button.

Posted by: CanRay May 31 2011, 06:09 PM

If you can stand to have the damned things off...

Too many family emergencies have cropped up for me to ever turn mine off.

Posted by: Bigity May 31 2011, 06:11 PM

Well to be fair, trodes always have done that in SR, even back in 1st edition.

I guess you could always say trodes are only good for cold sim VR or something.

Posted by: redwulf25 May 31 2011, 06:19 PM

In earlier editions I recall hacking through trodes having a small penalty.

Posted by: Bigity May 31 2011, 06:28 PM

I can't recall but it's possible

Posted by: Fatum May 31 2011, 06:45 PM

Uh, open any book printed before the Fourth Edition, like third edition core? There you go, smartlinks [x], decks [x], commlinks [ ], PANs [ ].

Posted by: suoq Jun 1 2011, 12:39 AM

IIRC, trodes used to at least be obvious and not socially normal. Nanopaste Trodes removed all that.

Posted by: hyphz Jun 2 2011, 04:13 PM

Ok, so I'm getting a bit of idea about what's going on, but from what it sounds like it's rather open-ended. As I mentioned I doubt anyone in the group would want to play a hacker so I'm figuring that hackers working against them should be more brief plot elements than tactically deployed units.

Are there any established solutions for dealing with the unbalance between equipment? I would think that if you're walking around with a body covered in wires then someone swinging a knife at you becomes a much bigger problem than it would otherwise..

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 2 2011, 04:17 PM

That's where glitches and critical glitches come in. Maybe the guy running wireless glitches and falls prone. The guy running wired glitches and has his trodes' cable cut. Now his Tac-Net no longer helps, he can't talk to his teammates without shouting, and he has to pay some small pittance to get a new cable.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 3 2011, 07:16 PM

Uh, actually, in the 70ies, you don't need wires any more. If you don't trust wireless (and there's no reason for you to) go skinlink.

Also, not having a hacker in a team is generally a bad idea. Have your team consider how they're dealing with cams and other security systems, data searches etc...

Posted by: hyphz Jun 4 2011, 03:15 AM

Eh, if nobody wants to play one I'd rather fudge the setting or give them a contact than force someone to. And if - as it seems - the apparent attempt in SR4 to make hacking an "alternate universe" in regular combat has failed, then the old decker probem comes straight back and I'd rather avoid it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 4 2011, 12:43 PM

No need to force someone to play the Archtype if they don't want to. An NPC can work out just as well.

But I would contend that integration of the Matrix into regular combat ahs not failed; at least not at our table. It is quite smooth, and works out great. It does require those players with Hacker Characters, as well as the GM, to be very familiar with the Matrix rules, but once you have accomplished that, it flows very well. In my experience anyways.

Posted by: capt.pantsless Jun 4 2011, 02:16 PM

That said, it's not absolutely required. Depending on the group and tone, the game can get REALLY fun if forced into 'alternate' problem-solving strategies. Just make sure someone takes demolition, ifyouknowwhatImean....

Posted by: hyphz Jun 4 2011, 02:17 PM

I was only responding to the post above which said that Cyberware hacking was an attempt to involve hackers in regular combat and (according to that post) it apparently failed so bady it had to be retconned.

How does it work in your games?

Posted by: Bigity Jun 4 2011, 02:40 PM

You can still hack tacnets, commlinks, drones, and even guns depending on how the owner sets them up, but it seem Unwired tried to back away from the whole hacking cyberware bit. Just because it was silly IMO. In a day and age with hackers and even those evil technomancers who cause Crash 2.0 out there you don't want them to be able to stop your pacemaker or something like that out in the streets. Why does your cyberleg need to be constantly connected? Especially when you could walk into jamming, dead zones, and the like. You'd use DNI to monitor things in there because that isn't subject to the vagaries of wireless signals.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 4 2011, 03:27 PM

Generally speaking cyberware hacking falls more into the realm of surveilance and force multiplication then it does into an enemy disabler. Hacking the enemies comlinkis for example gives you access to their smartlink if their running one off their PAN and it's not connected to a wholly seperate comlink. I do enforce a seperation of character knowledge and skills knowledge, for example a character with no points in hacking themselves likely isn't going to know what safeghuards to take beyond installing some antivirus or ICE and calling it a day. Now if the opposition is using any kind of real time communication or TACNET then it's time for a hacker to really earn their pay. Spoofing or editing, video, audio, and biomonitors can allow a team to disable guards without their fellows knowing what's up. In the case of an actual firefight your generally in a position of trading actions for actions which depending on your combat prowess your almost always better shooting someone however my personal favorite trick if i've had time ahead of time. I prepare a script to execute. On a given command it does the follow: Shuts off cybereyes, ejects clip, disable tacnet. Do this as their about to fire and you've cost them 6 dice minimum, they still have a round in the chmaber so they can still fire but their going to have to choose, do they spend their free action rebooting their ware (presuming they have DNI which i shouyld hope) or do they spend it enjecting a clip so they can use their simple to reload. Most people wont want to fire blind and they'll want to boot me out post haste so they wil reboot their ware and restore it to a defaults asap. Witht he right automation you can do this to a whole team at once so your hacker can do a simple in combat to cost multiple enemies their simples. With agents or other tricks it won't even cost you a simple.


So my take on cyberware hacking, it provides a nice force multiplier but it requires planing and opportunity and it's usefullness is going to vary wildly based on the tech usage of the opposition.

Edit addendum: Don't forget the surveilance cabilities of seeing through the users own eyes during sensative activities, that's why everyone but the hacker aught to have wireless off during meetings with mr J or run planing routing their connections through him.

Posted by: Sengir Jun 4 2011, 03:36 PM

Wouldn't say it was retconned, because being able to hack cyberware left and right was never part of the rules to start with. It only was an impression people got when first skimming over the new rules, and apparently still do

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 4 2011, 04:03 PM

Well, it is most useful for obtaining Eyes on the situation, through whatever surveillance the location already uses. Combine that with the abilities to intercept the Opposition's communications, and you have a powerful advantage (Assuming that you can keep them from using those same tricks against you).

My Most recent Hacker was a Cyberlogician, that coordinated the Tactical Network, employed Drones, and used any and all of the In-Place Systems. Generally, hacks consisted of Initial Discovery; Decryption, Hack into the System (Assuming I had not prepared a Backdoor or Login prior to the Run, which I accomplished about 65-75% of the time), and then subversion of the system to suite our needs. Opening Doors can be done through the Security Protocols, of course, or through hardwired access (for those doors not covered by Security Access). We had a Technomancer who could handle the Direct Touch stuff (Like Doors).

It is mostly a very fluid Situation, because all GM's do not run the Matrix the Same. Some will only use a Single Node, while others may use layered defenses and chokpoint verifications. We tend to stay away from the Cyberware Hacking, because most 'Runners know better. It is generally a waste of time to attempt, unless you are going against an unseasoned 'Runner or Security Force. It is often better to screw with their data Feeds thatn it is to screw with their 'Ware.

Anyways... My Hacker has been quite useful, and has a significant impact on our games. On Ocassion, a Hacker needs a bit more time for some setup. When we had to plan for an Infiltration on a Zero-Zone facility, The character I played was required to physically infiltrate a Corp Facility as a Security Spider, and then find all the Security and Matrix Protocols (as well as a few Major Corporate Security Spiders AID's) for that facility, and then set up a Trojan to prepare for our Final Plan on the Zero Zone. What kept this from being an Old-School Matrix crawl was that the others had their own things going on at the same time, so no time Disconnect in play, as it was all handled in cut scenes - Took 2 weeks of game time to actually pull off, after a year of initial planning). When it comes to crazy things like Resonance Quests (for the Technomancer), the GM either runs that away from the Group, or we all participate. For Extended Penetration hacks, the entire group may participate, and most do, in some fashion. This may not be doable for a new character group, but the majority of the characters in our group all have high end gear (courtesy of my Hacker) and have at least passable Hacking Skills, or other tools that will help (Decent Level Agents). In the end, we have been able to keep the Matrix stuff pretty fully integrated with the rest of the action, since all actions happen at the same time (no more disconnect between Meat World Actions and Matrix Actions).

Its been quite fun, in fact.

Posted by: hyphz Jun 14 2011, 06:25 PM

Ok, thanks for all your help so far! Another question if I may..

In the rulebook, it states that if two entities roll the same initiative score they act at the same time. But there are no rules for simultaneous actions anywhere else in the game that I can see. How do you deal with this? Do you have the player or players or player and GM write down their intended action on a piece of paper?

Also, if you've delayed taking your action, you can act "before, after, or at the same time as" another entity. If you choose to act before at at the same time, you don't get to find out what they were going to do first, right?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 14 2011, 06:33 PM

I typically just decide what the NPC is going to do. It's usually pretty easy since their choices tend to be "same thing as last time," "new tactic because that didn't work," or "run like hell."

For PCs, just let them go in whatever order they want. It save the time of making them delay so they're in the right order, then go.



We treat delayed actions like readied actions in D&D. You can interrupt someone else if you want to. It might not be RAW, but it makes them a lot more useful and means that the guy who's not able to do anything at the moment doesn't feel as gypped, and he can be a real game changer if the situation changes.

i.e. Sniper is waiting around back to catch any fleeing targets.He's spending his whole combat delaying unless someone comes out. When they do, if they've got enough movement to get out of his line of fire in one action and you enforce a "can't interrupt" rule, the sniper is effectively useless. If he can interrupt them though, one guy dies and the rest have to rethink that whole "run away and live to fight another day" plan.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 14 2011, 06:53 PM

I wish that if you have a smartlink program running on your commlink to control your smartgun. I mean what software is running on your contacts that couldn't be run on your 'link?