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Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 4 2011, 03:55 PM

So i've been somewhat frustrated lately as the game becomes more and more hostile to ware and augmentation while at the same time continues to throw new toys at the magic using set. I look at additional spells and improvement to things like trodes but when I look at the ware catalog it's more or less the same as when i first started playing the game in second edition. As such i'm trying to compile a list of ware that needs a bit of a shot in the arm or improvement and then format a series of house rules to apply the same.

First thing: Drop the first aid/medicine modifier for lack of essence. I've worked on enough bloody people to know that having them bleed less would actually likely be helpful, or at the very least not hurt my chances any more.

Datajack - The venerable datajack gets reworked withs ome of the same tech that allows trodes to work better taking advantage of it's direct link to a users brain to provide the full DNI 2.0 experience: Datajacks now allow users to take and additional free action and a complex or two simples in regards to the matrix or other online devices.
Problems with implantation: We'd need to codify what can be done with these actions, if instructing your drone to fire is ok why wouldn't instrucitng your cyberarm to fire? (i'm actually pretty comfortable with this, but others might not be). Also some way for technomancers to do the same would have to be implented through echos or complex forms or something.

Smartlink - An implanted smart link's better tap into your hand eye complex allows you to ignore the pentalties for shooting FROM cover.

Posted by: Halflife Jun 4 2011, 04:10 PM

The Macro Echo allows Technomancers to take an additional non-combat, matrix task with a -2 modifier every time them spend a complex action (including matrix actions). That sounds like close to what you are looking at.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 4 2011, 04:15 PM

All very interesting suggestions...

My personal Favorite would be to apply the Essence Loss from Implantation as a penalty to ALL Spellcasting DP's (Rather than Just Healing Tests) targeted against the Character. But that is just me.

The problem with 'Ware interacting with healing is that it disrupts the body's natural healing processes. So I understand the penalties to First Aid/Medicine Rolls. It is just HARDER to heal a person with only 0.1 Essence. I am not really sure how to counter that issue without having complex 'Ware rules for repairing the "damaged" 'Ware that should be represented on the character when he takes Physical Damage. There are, of course, optional rules in Augmentation that might address this in some capacity, but they do not go far enough. *shrug*

Posted by: Halflife Jun 4 2011, 04:17 PM

I do like the idea of applying the Essence Loss Penalty to all the spells cast against the character. Those with severely reduced auras from ware would be harder to form that magical connection that you need to cast a spell with.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 4 2011, 04:18 PM

Agreed...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 4 2011, 04:29 PM

The datajack idea seems very complex and probably overpowered. It would significantly mess with the existing AR/VR initiative system, and giving an extra full IP (and what, is that per Turn or Phase?) is also way too strong. If you want 'real DNI' to have an advantage over trodes, then just make one stronger and/or the other weaker. +2/-2 to Matrix tests? +2/-2 Matrix initiative? Etc.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 4 2011, 04:33 PM

However, that would only be for mana spells. Physical spells, and especially combat spells, which "create" an effect, then unleash it (any elemental spell, knockout and such), wouldn't suffer from this issue, I think.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 4 2011, 05:21 PM

Change the cost/benefit ratio so that tech is always more efficient than magic?

Make technological equivalents for all the stuff that only magic does?



BTW, are talking cyber specifically here, or augmentation in general?

Posted by: suoq Jun 4 2011, 05:37 PM

The problem isn't the ware. The problem is the magic.

Ware means your body type is now "abnormal" so standard procedures are less effective. Fine.
Magic means your body type is so abnormal that science doesn't understand how you work, BUT standard procedures work just fine.

Wireless > Sniffing > Encryption > Decryption OR Wireless > Jamming > ECCM.
Magic Communication. You are a unique and special snowflake.

The cold war is still being fought on the technological side of the house, but it's pointless because the war is over. Magic won.

Awakened are the Übermensch. They don't check their guns at the door. They don't get their communications jammed. And they can replace your hardwired datajack with body glitter.

Harry Dresden may get beaten up in every encounter, but we don't even bother making the Six Million Dollar man anymore because that wouldn't even be a fight worth watching.

Cyber is replacing something that works with something that works better at a cost to the thing that works.
Magic is just putting something great on top of something that works with no downside to the thing that works.
Magic wins.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 4 2011, 05:51 PM

The problem is that there aren't enough effective countermeasures against magic. And the scarcity of magic in the general populous of the SR universe, makes most magic countermeasures just as scarce. The others are not very reliable, like background counts. Sure, they exist, and can be pretty common, but most facilities wouldn't be built to make use of them, baring their research.

Posted by: Irion Jun 4 2011, 06:05 PM

The problem is not magic, it is the mage.

It start with the rules to magic loss. There is no reason not to take two points of ware. (Since you just pay the points you have lost, which might be not that much Karma)

Just compare adepts to sams. (Since mages are hard to compare)

A pure adept can't outperform a sam for quite a long time. (And at this point the sam has a lot of skills besides killing) (Changed a bit with way of the adept)

But add in two points of Essence loss and everything changes.
If you have a latend awkening, it cost you shit. Might even take three or more.
Lets but it simple: Give the adept only Cybereyes, Synaptic booster 2, muscle augmentation 3(alpha) and a cyberhand for the nanite core.

It is quite the ware you need, so the hell with the rest. (You want to walk through cyberwarescanners anyway)


Overcasting is an other glitch. Just decrease the drain resist pool by 1 for every point of overcast. (Or even better overcast force counst double. So a for a magic 4 mage a force 8 Stunball would be resisted like a force 12 stunball.)

Introduce range modifiers for casting. I ain't that easy to focus on a point at the horizon.
Level 6 mage casting force 12 stunball? I do not think so.

It is not the tec response to magic, that causes the problem. It is the magic rules itself, that are causing the problems.
Because they do not really limit the players. (Yeah, the damage is physical now, so what?)


If you overcast to your double magic attribute, you shoult be frying yourself. The point is: You are not.
If you take ware you should be limited. You are not.
Etc. etc.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 4 2011, 06:32 PM

You do realize that the penalty for lost essence on first aid test is at worst a -2? This is pretty much negligible for a skilled medic. I think it should stay.
Now for magic healing the penalty can go to up to -5, this is more substantial. It would be a major fluff change to remove that.

As for the new magic stuff, I'm pretty sure most of it has been around since SR2, Just as most Bio and Cyberware implants.

This largely depends on what spell you actually cast. A Force 12 Napalm Spell is 13 drain. I call that frying yourself.
You are, you have a lower magic attribute, which affects your casting DP, and your maximum force. You have to start initiating earlier to be able to raise your magic attribute.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 4 2011, 06:50 PM

Another thing that I'm reminded of, healing awakened characters/critters. I believe there is a -2 penalty to use first aid and medicine on awakened lifeforms, due to the effort of not interfering with the awakened properties. In Augmentation it is suggested that a specialization can be taken for awakened persons to compensate for this.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 4 2011, 07:38 PM

Which is why you sadly never see mages casting napalm. They're horrendously expensive in the drain category, and actually less effective than a stunball or something similar.

1 DP isn't that big of a deal for the benefits you can generally cram into a single point of essence (or 2 DP for 2 points of essence) and for 90% of spells a super high force isn't very important.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 4 2011, 07:58 PM

This is very true, unfortunitely. One thing I've considered is implementing a reduced effect stunball/manaball. Specifically, the way it is handled in the Food Fight 4.0 starter encounter. For those unfamilar, the stunball in that scenario only does damage based on hits, not the force+hits. It reduces the power of oft used spells, and makes some of the higher force, physical spells more attractive.



Also a good point. Most characters only need a couple of options in combat, and the other spells only need as much force as necessary for the situation, which is usually fairly manageable by a weak caster.

Posted by: Irion Jun 4 2011, 08:05 PM

@Dakka Dakka

But Napalm Force 6 has a drain of 10. So...


Well. Lets even say they got your Magic to 5 before you got two points, they have to pay 45 Karma to rebuy those two points.
So you pay 45 Karma to get 2 Points of ware. This is dirt cheap.
This would be the cost to get from 8 to 9.
So what is better two points of ware or one point of magic?

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 4 2011, 08:20 PM

One way to limit overcasting is to limit to 1.5 times Essence rather than double. This limits uber magic.

Another thing to do to limit magic is that a mage can only initiate so many times. The limit would be Essence. So a mage who gets 2 points of 'Ware can only initiate 4 times rather than 6 times. This also limits his magic to double his Essence rather than unlimited as is now. If for some reason a mage with level 4 initiate dips below 4 Essence he loses his most recently gained meta-magic.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 4 2011, 08:26 PM

Part of me wants to say that is too restrictive, but another part of me thinks that's fine: It isn't like sammies have unlimited essence to improve with, why should mages have unlimited initiation/magic?

The problem with magic may be partially that we are wired to think of it as powerful and/or to not want to decrease the power of something. We'd rather raise something else up to match it than bring it down.

Posted by: Irion Jun 4 2011, 08:51 PM

Which is exactly what leads to break the system. (Thats what we know)

But I have to fight not to argue that way.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 4 2011, 09:08 PM

With enought money, they pretty much do.
Starting with Biocompability cyber, helps too.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 4 2011, 09:17 PM

But a Sam with plenty of Experience and a Chunk Ton of Money can get Delta Grade Cyber and Bio combinations that result in 18-29 points of Effective Essence Loss (Dependant upon Qualities and such). THAT is a chunk of Essence. Let the Mage Try that one and see how it falls out.

Mages are generally more Versatile, though.

And at the risk of having Yerameyahu berate me again We have very little trouble in the way that magic integrates with technology at our table. They both have their ups and downs. Some campaigns, we have more Awakened than NonAwakened. Other times the UnAwakened far outnumber the Singular Awakened Character. It's all good.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 4 2011, 09:23 PM

Obviously, you should do what's best at your specific table. If initiation abuse is a problem, you'd tone it *down* as a general rule.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 4 2011, 10:08 PM

Personally I love Magic and have no problem with it being better than technology in the long run, however I have an issue with it being the only thing in the game with unlimited advancement. Sure as a GM you can just say no to the Mage wanting to initiate further, but in my mind that is a cop out. So instead of leaving it uncapped in my games I cap it. It is still plenty vicious, but GD's, and IE's are not unkillable. Ridiculously powerful yes, but killable. I always see Ghostwatchers arrival as a fluke, and a huge expenditure of resources to secure something he wanted. As to the essence issue, well in my games Mages and Adepts rerely get cyber or bio because well it is a kick in the pants against other awakened (so Mages don't look at it until they can afford delta grade), and Adepts have a power discount based on their initiate grade, which means every magic point they lose to cyber in the end costs them more.

As to Tech not getting better, well trodes and easy access to non invasive methods tells me that it is getting better. What I think you want is a firm commitment to the aesthetic of cyberchic, or a real advance in cyber. Problem with cyber is that it is limited by the meat. They really need to move into the area of full on cyborgs and rigged clone bodies for doing meat things to keep the borg sane. Or a brain pod with changeable bodies, hrmm.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 4 2011, 10:15 PM

Well yeah, sure, if you're giving the sammy access to infinite money, then to compensate you need to give the mage access to infinite karma, which I'm sure we all know who would work out better.

Also keep in mind that an improvement from regular to delta gives you double the amount of usable essence at ten times the cost. With magic however, you're generally looking at a much better cost:improvement ratio, since initiations only go up in cost by 3 karma at a time, and magic scores by 5 at a time (which admittedly gets expensive, but so does a single piece of delta ware even before you consider things like availability of delta clinics).

You also need to consider that each time a mage initiates, virtually all of their initiate abilities get more powerful, and each time a mage increases magic, virtually all of her magic abilities get more powerful. For a sammy, getting a new piece of ware may give her an extra point to a pool or two, but you very quickly run out of things that give dice to several pools thanks to maximums on grades.

Another problem is that it is easy to unbalance the amount of karma and nuyen given out in games. If too much karma is given out, then the mages advance more, with the adepts quickly hitting limits of maximum skills, eventually requiring them to spend over 30 karma for their last point in a skill, which is more than the mage is likely paying for another initiation. If however there is too much nuyen being given out, the mundanes will generally be given a slight nod, but not much of one because there are plenty of expensive goodies the mage can get as well (geneware, high grade bio/cyber, not to mention possibly drones or other things), so the mage isn't at too huge of a disadvantage. This brings up what I think is the biggest problem:
The space between the parentheses represents everything mundanes can do, and the space between the brackets represents everything an awakened can do. AKA there is nothing a mundane can do that an awakened can't with the exception of spending that last .99 essence (And I guess cyborg and cyberzombie). Sure, they wouldn't be as good of a mage as if they focused purely on being a mage, but they'd be basically as good of an X as a real X, but also have the benefit of having magic.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 12:50 AM

Simple change:
All Spells have to overcome object resistance of highly processed material for anybody who has even the least amount of cyberware in them.
And then you still get to resist with your normal willpower(+x) . .
That would make casting spells at cybered people much harder. Yes, all of them, the beneficial ones too. Makes physical spells/elemental spells/indirect combat spells more worth taking too.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 12:52 AM

And everyone in the world gets a datajack and is immune to magic. That's a bit too much I think.

Posted by: Halflife Jun 5 2011, 01:09 AM

You could scale the object resistance threshold based on Essence spent but that just seems to make low magic characters even less viable without really impacting mages who can shrug off all but the highest thresholds already.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 01:54 AM

I don't know how that makes low magic mages less viable than giving everyone with a datajack 5 free hits on magic resistance tests.

Perhaps a nice middle ground is that for each point of essence lost, all spells targeted at the person are reduced by a force of 1, which is similar to how a mage would lose a point of magic for losing a point of essence. This would make low magic mages viable through overcasting.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 02:02 AM

Perhaps, but the healing spell mechanic of reducing dice pool would work a lot better, without nerfing them too badly.

That said, I think GM's should just be more aware of Background count and the fact that killing a chicken can temporarily increase it (according to fluff)

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 02:15 AM

I don't know where you get that killing a chicken is remotely close to enough to create any amount of background count. An example of a rating 1 background count is the scene of a violent crime. I don't think killing a chicken quite counts, even if it is technically violent and might be a crime.

Edit: That said, alot of what shadowrunners do could be creating BCs of 1 all over the place.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 02:29 AM

Well, it's not a permanent background count. I just remember one of the pre-chapter stories being about a mage muddying the astral space by killing a chicken at the scene, to hide the astral signatures for a little while.

Edit: But, I could be wrong. I can't seem to ever find it again, no matter how hard I look.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 03:03 AM

Not in any of my books. I could perhaps see performing some kind of ritual that involved sacrificing a chicken being able to create a slight BC for a bit, but I'd think that it would carry the signature of the person performing the ritual as well as not be strong enough to hide a signature.

Now, if you set off a bomb in a crowded building, that would likely hide your signature for a while.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 04:51 AM

I find it amusing that a thread about how to improve ware becomes a thread about balancing magic.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 04:56 AM

Cyberware giving a defense against magic would be an improvement, no?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 05:00 AM

Maybe, i'm not sure. I don't think cyber's judge fail should be based strictly on magic. I specificly picked out the two items in the OP becuase they are items that have gear equivalents that does the same job exactly as better. That strikes me as wrong especially in the case of trodes vs datajack. Logically a datajack should be better, the game just hasn't seen fit to explore how.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 05:14 AM

That's the story of SR4. Everything that was cyber-only got a gear equivalent. Ultrasound, radar, smartlink, etc.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 05:21 AM

Well in the case of radar and ultrasound it makes sense to me there should be a gear equivalent but datajack is all about getting the best hardware to wetware connection you can.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 05:22 AM

Hmm, I see what you mean. Kind of like how smart goggles used to be less effective than an implanted smartlink system.

Well, to get back on that track, I'm not so sure it needs it. It is one of those things that exists largely for flavor, like the silky skin bioware. It has no mechanical advantage, but you might take it to show just how concerned your character is with their appearance, and it is something that NPCs get.

In the case of datajack for example, you might get it because it is that tiny bit better (tiny enough to not give a DP bonus) than a trode net, along with the fact that it is impossible to misplace.

That said, if you really want to give cyber an advantage I suggest dropping the power of the gear as opposed to raising the power of the ware. Why? Well, quite simply because if you increase the power of ware, you decrease the power of things that don't have access to ware like IC, agents, AI, and sprites. For datajack vs trodes for example, you could give a -1 penalty to all matrix actions while using trodes to represent them not quite relaying things at 100%. You're more or less using inferior equipment.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jun 5 2011, 09:40 AM

I do think there should be more little gadgets and ware that give unique bonuses. But you have to be careful with bloat and something being too good. Just more options and synergies to work with so that something can be cobbled together for a character. This would help out magic character but it would I think help cyber characters more, because there is only so much cyber a mage can scoop up and cyber characters can scoop up more of it.

The problem with suggesting this is that it needs a lot of creativity to come up with a lot of things that you might sometimes want but not always want. Not two weak, not two strong, just right. It is like saying all you need to do to solve this problem is to solve this problem.

The other thing is that lower than 6 essence and higher than 6 essence might give some advantage and disadvantage to remain hidden from astral. I would go with, every two points of essence bellow 6 subtracts a dice from the searcher's dice pool, and ever 2 points above 6 essence (and maybe magic) adds a dice to the searcher's dice pool. Negative essence instead adds dice to be observed in the same way essence over 6 adds to the dice pool of observers. This is because a black astral taint is more easy to see than simply a dim aura. It is a small bonus or penalty but it is small tweaks here in there that you need to make or else you overshoot your goal.

It also occurs to me that quickened spells, and anchored spells may have been something that could have gone some way to give mundanes some of what magic has. But there are all kinds of obstacles from them being useful and from them being something you can just pay have done. The main limitations as we probably all know are stealth, being vulnerable to targeting from astral, high karma cost for something that can be destroyed or diminished fairly easily. Also because if a quickened spell can be tracked back to the caster to bite them in the ass. You can not cast it on yourself because you are mundane. A party member can not do it because it costs lots of karma. A NPC will not do it because unlike foci it can be tracked back to its maker and it also costs lots of karma cost. It was just a thought. I think they successfully made quickened spells interesting but not overpowered so it is hard to mess with that equation, but here is me trying anyway.

Maybe a mundane or anyone else could step in to pay for the karma for a quickened spell being cast on themselves, and then the spell is only linked to the person who stepped in, to pay karma. It could need to be a tattoo magic maybe, or not. The ability to allow someone else to pay for a quickened spell would probably be a new metamagic. New toys for the kid with the most toys but it could help magic spread the wealth some.

Something similar could be done for other items. There are a rare few items in shadow run that are anything like any of the magic items from something like D&D but they do exist in the shadow run universe. Getting magic active through barriers would still be hard but that would just mean sometimes you have to leave your vorpal blade at home.

I picture a sort of permanency spell that counts as double karma when being quickened (can still pay up to twice karma force, and it will then count as double) but then the spell does nothing other than preventing any quickened spells cast before it from being dispelled before it is fully dispelled. It would also stop more spells from being quickened on a person or an object until the permanency spell is dispelled. The double karma part may be too good. Because then you could load up with a lot of low level but useful quickened spells and then toss a really high force and high karma permanency spell on top like some sort of capstone, and then all your little spells are safe and the average enemy would just slag you with manabolts than tangle with removing a high force quickened spell in the middle of combat.

With that use in mind, it being something that effectively allows you to spend less karma on a lot of little quickened spells, permanency might cost double karma, or double karma points of karma spent over force.

Posted by: Irion Jun 5 2011, 11:06 AM

Lets take a look at it.

Depends on how much spellresistance you get per point of essence loss and how it interacts with counterspelling.
Plane bonus dice for each point of lost essence would be quite nice. (But you should really watch the line of sight for counterspelling!)

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 01:32 PM

The issue with trodes/nanopaste/skinlink is the same as the issue with magic. It was adding something great without taking anything away.
There is no real reason trodes/nanopaste/skinlink should work with VR. You could limit it to AR only. Personally, I'd limit it to command only, AR with cybereyes, and VR with a datajack. If you want AR and VR, get the eyes and the jack. I'd also allow AR with goggles and wireless, but VR needs that jack.
There is no reason MULTIPLE trodes/nanopaste/skinlinks should work at the same time. You could classify trodes and and nanopaste as skinlink devices as well and have only one work at a time. I can think of a half dozen reasons why they should interfere with each other and why two people using skinlink devices should not touch other. It also seems to make sense that if you're using a skinlink device and I touch you, I have the same link to that device that you have.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 01:45 PM

Well, one could go into encryption.
On second thought, let's not go to encryption. It's a silly place.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 01:48 PM

I wasn't aware that you could wear multiple trodes at the same time, and am even less aware of any reason you might want to do that.

As for skinlink devices, there is no reason two people with skinlinked devices shouldn't touch each other any more than there is any reason that two people with wireless devices shouldn't come within signal range of each other. Yes, if you have skinlinked enabled devices and touch someone that also has skinlinked devices, you could access those devices, but with no more ease than you could access them if they were wireless devices.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 02:09 PM

Except that if you are wearing skin-linked devices you might have skimped out on the rest of your security suite. But that`d be your fault anyway.

As far as I can tell, in the '70's people tend to go out of their way to avoid physical contact with anyone, so even bumping into someone on the street might be a little odd. Let along prolonged contact in order to skinlink-hack.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:13 PM

I'm Curious... Where did you infer this from?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 02:14 PM

I haven't really seen anything that says they avoid physical contact any more than in modern times. That said, even in modern times about the only time touching someone you don't know well happens is shaking their hand.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 02:23 PM

A skinlink device, to the best of my understanding, is sending high voltage, incredibly low amperage current through my body, much like a violet wand does. It needs to have enough amperage so that the signal very reliably gets through but NOT enough amperage to start causing pain or damage. And it's easy to say OUCH when you suddenly brush against metal while holding a violet wand.

I don't want to think about holding two violet wands or touching someone else who is also holding a violet wand.

By the way, for an example of the power levels we're talking about, I normally use a violet wand on Halloween. I'll stand outside with a glowing florescent bulb (the long tubes) in my hand. If someone else grabs the tube the section between us glows brightly. If I let go, it turns off. But if I touch you, it's like a carpet shock that doesn't go away.

All that being said. There doesn't have to be a reason. The matrix doesn't work like any protocol we know. The NAN doesn't make any sense. None of the rules or fluff hold up to scrutiny. One simply says "This is the way it is" and that's that.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 02:25 PM

What the hell is a voilet wand?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 02:29 PM

Just an inference based partly on how society is going already, and the little fiction I've read. That, of course is general, and more likely in upper class society, but it's always been that way.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:29 PM

Not quite right... It is using the ambient electrical charge of the body to trasnmit data along it. Not quite the same as what you have above.





As you can see, neither description is what you describe.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 02:29 PM

A modified handheld Tesla Coil once used for quack medicine and now used for things that are against the Terms Of Service to talk about. Since I enjoy tesla coils, quack medicine, and things against the terms of service, it made sense for me to obtain one awhile back.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:30 PM

Heh... But a Skinlink is NOT a Violet Wand.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 02:33 PM

This is a modern RPG with huge sections on firearms where the writers didn't know the difference between the difference between a clip and a magazine. Anything they write with electronics or metabolism I'm assuming they have an even lower level of knowledge.

And you're right TJ. A Skinlink is NOT a violet wand. A skinlink is a made up object that can do anything and behave in any way whatsoever, including being better than implanted cyberware in every way. Does making skinlink and trodes BETTER than 'ware make your game better?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:36 PM

Which is still somewhat irrelevant. Whether they know their stuff or not, the rules tell you EXACTLY what they do, and there is no ambiguity there.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 02:39 PM

Congratulations. You win. Do you mind if the rest of us get on with discussing the problem with the rules and proposing changes to them?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 02:39 PM

I'm fairly sure that if two people using skinlink touching would cause some kind of problem, it would have been brought up. Just because you assume that skinlink works in some particular way that would have particular effects, doesn't mean that it does, especially when it is contradicted by what is in the books.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 02:40 PM

I thought this was about ways to improve cyberware, not turn skinlink into joy buzzers.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 02:41 PM

If you want to limit VR to implants and wires, you can do that. It's a massive change (reversion, really), but many people just loved deckers. Removing skinlink (which roughly exists in 2010 tech already) merely forces people to be covered in fiber; no real reason for that hassle. Increase the skinlink price, if you like.

You'll also have to mess with AR rules a little too, because AR is about 90% as good as VR already (exceptions: rigging, slow-hack, datasearch…).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:42 PM

It is not about winning Suoq. I though that you knew that. As others have said, if there were the drawbacks present that you indicated, they would have been listed in the device use/description. They were not, so they did not exist in the first place.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 02:48 PM

The inherent problem with cyberware is that it, unlike everything else, comes with disadvantages and limitations.
Now we could remove the disadvantages (throw out essence cost and the first aid rules) and the end results would be predictable. I wouldn't mind an SR campaign like that honestly although I'd throw out the cap on starting as well in such a campaign.
The other option is to start adding the disadvantages back into everything else. Add the glass back into glass cannons. Place limitations on devices. Cripple everything the way cyberware is crippled and has been crippled since day 1.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 02:50 PM

Interesting... I have never thought that Cyberware has ever been crippled. Oh well...
Oh, it can be more useful, to be sure, but that comes with Time, Money, and Grade Upgrades.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 02:55 PM

Skinlinks have their own functional profile. Devices must remain in contact or on your person (it works through clothes), and every device must be upgraded with the skinlink (nothing comes with it). Skinlink is cheap, so raise the price a little if it helps your table. It's a convenience issue, though, not a power issue. It's exactly the same as wiring everything together, except without the (boring, unrelated) effort.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:01 PM

You can have an implant that's expensive, hard to change, and costs essence or a skinlinked device that's easy to change, replace, or whatever, costs much less, and does exactly the same thing and you don't see an issue.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 03:08 PM

That's an implant vs. device issue, not a skinlink issue. At all.

It's just how things are. It makes sense, too: many implants are just implanted versions of 'normal' gear. It's only things that are unique to cyberware that should be… unique to cyberware (and/or bioware). And those items are, by definition, in no danger of being replaced with a device.

Can you give some examples? With all these generalities and obscure quack medicine gadgets, you're coming off like a jittery conspiracy theorist.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:15 PM

Yes. It is. Because it's the skinlink that makes the device better than the implant. Without it the implant is better vs jamming, hacking, etc. The skinlink gives a device ALL the advantages of an implant at NONE of the costs.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:19 PM

You're right. I'm wasting my time and energy trying to talk to people who have a vested interest in the system remaining broken. My bad.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 03:19 PM

But as Yerameyahu said, skinlink can be replaced with a wire, so no, skinlink really isn't what is at issue.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:28 PM

If you want to handwave all the issues with wires away, from their being obvious to the time taken to plug them in to their ability to catch on things, be broken, etc. you are absolutely correct. Remove all disadvantages and yep, they're just as good as skinlink and better than ware. I agree with you completely. You've convinced me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 03:29 PM

Don't pout and spout sarcasm, just give me a couple—hell, a *single*—examples, man!

Honestly, your argument is that wires might catch on things? Oy. I specifically said 'wires are a big, boring hassle', but that's not the same as being mechanically balanced.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 5 2011, 03:33 PM

The advantage of cables is that they can be used as lanyards.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:34 PM

No. You're right. Clealy datajacks and nanopaste are equal. Clealy cybereyes and skinlinked goggles are equal. Cleally an implanted gun and a skinlinked gun are equal. Clearly an impanted commlink and a skinlinked commlink are equal. I'm wrong. I take back everything I said. A character has no reason to choose the skinlinked items and nanopaste over the implanted items.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 5 2011, 03:34 PM

A skinlinked device can always be taken away, an implant...well I have to get medieval on you with a damn big knife to take it away, of course you are probably dead at that point. Pretty big deal especially when dealing with more subtle cyber.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 03:35 PM

Let me give it a try, Yerameyahu...

How about a Smartlink
Glasses with Skinlink, Smartlink, and an Image Link in the Glasses, Linked to a Skinlinked Smartpistol.
vs.
Internal Smartlink/Imagelinks in Natural or Cybereyes, Datajack with Skinlink (Maynot be necessary if you skinlink the CyberEyes), and a Skinlinked Smartpistol...

Cost variance is significant between the External Mods and the Internal Mods. External Mods can be lost, taken, while internal ones cannot. Seems balanced to me, but maybe Suoq disagrees?

Posted by: BnF95 Jun 5 2011, 03:36 PM

Skinlink transmits via the electrical energy of the body right?

I can see some issues with that off the top of my head.

1. Don't wear any armor with non-conductive modification (that would screw skinlink).
2. Don't get hit by lightning (I can see where this might be argued, but think of a power spike going into your electronics.)
3. Don't get hit with water (water really screws up electrical fields by diluting it or something like that) ... and if you are playing in Seattle where it rains quite a bit ... good luck on not getting wet.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 03:41 PM

You want to find a disadvantage to skinlinks? Alright. The palming skill. Glitches/critical glitches. A pickpocket can still take the device off of you, unless you have it very tightly fastened. You can drop it (savvy GM's might even hold back the complete effects of a glitch or crit glitch until you look for the device on your PAN and realize it's gone, baring an alert that something has left the network, at least). Warez aren't affected by those possibilities, unless you are suffering massive damage and using those rules (which I always have). The Skinlink is helpful, but it isn't the be all- end all you claim it to be.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 03:42 PM

You want to find a disadvantage to skinlinks? Alright. The palming skill. Glitches/critical glitches. A pickpocket can still take the device off of you, unless you have it very tightly fastened. You can drop it (savvy GM's might even hold back the complete effects of a glitch or crit glitch until you look for the device on your PAN and realize it's gone, baring an alert that something has left the network, at least). Warez aren't affected by those possibilities, unless you are suffering massive damage and using those rules (which I always have). The Skinlink is helpful, but it isn't the be all- end all you claim it to be.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:42 PM

Anyone who can take away your external mod can take away your internal mod. It's MUCH more beneficial to the character to have the mod taken away be external. I'd rather it be taken away than removed with an ice cream scoop.

Do you characters lose your external mods? I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks. It strikes me as a lot easier to buy a new external than replace/repair the internal.

And if you're going to bold my name, bold it right. The "s" is NOT capitalized.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 03:42 PM

Christ, suoq. Half of those aren't even equivalent (cybergun, really?), and the rest were too pouty to read. I'm going to talk to Tymeaus instead.

Smartlink is indeed one of the big SR3-to-4 changes. The skinlink *is* very handy here, because a gun is something you move a lot. Is it so handy that wired guns couldn't exist? No; wired guns existed in SR3… as a match to the *implanted* smartlink, no less. So, skinlink saves you the trouble of having a wire down your arm, but that's there whether your eyes are implants or not! Again, skinlink isn't the factor.

Maybe that's not the best example. If only someone would give some.

Let's do the implanted commlink. Now, obviously this is an external gadget that got an implanted version, so it's not exactly cyberware *losing* something. So. The implanted version gets the benefit of concealment, DNI, and inside-the-body-ness. The external version… could easily be wired, under your clothing and armor, secured with tape. No difference with skinlink, except slightly less hassle.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:45 PM

Ware doesn't glitch? That's a new one to me.

And as much as having to check in your gear is a pain in the neck. That's not nearly as bad as being denied entrance because your gear is implanted.

But you're right. It's balanced. There's no reason to not take implanted over skinlink.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 03:48 PM

Implants (at least, things like commlinks or Math SPUs) do not 'break' on a glitch, no. Ever. If the GM does that, he's screwing you on purpose. By the same token, external devices don't either! On a *critical* glitch, there's a small possibility of something breaking, perhaps. Maybe.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 03:50 PM

Indeed... No worries...

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 03:52 PM

The point is, both gitch. Ware does NOT have a "doesn't glitch" advantage over gear.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 03:53 PM

No, the point is you claimed 'ware could glitch so that it required surgery. In addition, HunterHerne did not say 'ware didn't glitch. He said 'ware can't be pickpocketed from you, dude!

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 03:58 PM

You might have a point, but for a glitch, I doubt I would break anything. For a critical glitch, maybe, but that would apply to both, as well. "Critical glitch? As you stumble back, your glasses slip off your head, and you end up stepping on them."

For a glitch with ware I would maybe cause it to reboot, losing it's benefit for a couple turns at most, but that does depend on the test, too.

You're right. I would rather have my external mods taken away, too. But, that is certain play styles, and sometimes, characters don't have the option, especially after character creation. Or they have a theme they are playing with. It really comes down to personal choice, which I prefer as a GM to powergaming (I actually tend to punish powergamers as a GM)

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 04:06 PM

Next game pickpocket the skinlinked gear from your players and tell them they don't notice it going away from their PAN. Go on. I dare you.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 04:16 PM

What is wrong with you? I'm trying to be nice, but you keep literally making things up. I never said they wouldn't notice. HunterHerne suggested it as a *possibility* (not one I agree with). The key aspect here is that they take it away from you.

The fact is you said this: "I can see that on a glitch, but on the same glitch the internal one breaks." That's crazy. And then *no one* said the 'ware was glitchproof.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 04:25 PM

I also said there would be an alert on the PAN. But, if the device isn't currently in use, there is no guarantee they won't notice. let them make a couple perception checks (one to notice the actual pickpocketing, one to notice the alert as something worth reading) Even if they succeed, the pickpocket probably isn't readily identifiable. Although most runners should have some way of tracking their psuedo-legal gear...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 04:26 PM

Yeah, I dig. I feel like my 'item stolen!' alert would be un-ignorable, but yes.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 04:29 PM

Well, think about it like this, unless they specifically set up their system to alert them that an item left their PAN in big flashy letters, it'll be more like the small box in the corner that you ignore on your PC monitor when you take a storage device out of the computer without safely removing hardware.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 04:37 PM

I just don't agree there. This is anti-theft. I can certainly see how that could get annoying, just like car alarms. And normal people are lax about security vs. convenience. But a shadowrunner?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 04:46 PM

Hunter has a really good point. Even Shadowrunners don't always think of every possibility, and having their spare set of glasses stolen could be one of them. Or heck, even their gun. I mean, Shadowrunners are to at least some extent vain, and are unlikely to think someone is going to be able to steal their gun without them noticing. Also, not all runners are really technically savy, and may simply not think to set up something like that, or have the knowledge of how to do it.

You also have to remember that it would create a serious annoyance if every time they turned a device off or set it down and walked away, big flashing letters would appear in their vision.

It is only anti-theft because someone happened to steal it. In any other case it is just a major annoyance because you forgot to hit the 'remove this device from my pan' button. Also, thanks to the mesh wireless, something stolen may very well still be connected to your PAN, and setting something up that actually checks the location of all devices on the PAN in relationship to each other would be an enormous hassle (Not to mention require a dedicated agent I believe).

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 04:49 PM

Furthermore, if you are running black trenchcoat, nothing points back at the runner anyway, and most of them get rid of what they used after a run too . .
So they have one more switch, big deal to them, if it wasn't too expensive or had still something pointing at them in big and angry letters . .

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 04:52 PM

"Planned loss" Sounds like a good way to create a false trail.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 5 2011, 05:00 PM

Do you seriously say that anyone who is willing to either tell you to remove some gear or take it from you is also willing and able to perform operations on you? And in the same time those persons are not willing and able to kill you and drop you in a ditch possibly with some organs missing? This sounds like a very strange world to me.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 05:04 PM

Good point. A ganger mugging you in the street and a Tamenous guy stripping you of your useful pieces aren't exactly the same thing, and the mugging is a lot more common. I guess in that sense it comes down to play style of the GM, and whether or not it's more Pink-Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 05:16 PM

Much different Situation from you getting cought by lonestar or whatever corp you were running against.
Guard:"Give us your weapons"
Runner:"Built in, i'm afraid"
Guard:"YOUR Problem buddy"

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 05:23 PM

Yeah... one of the reasons I wouldn't get a cyber weapon. And especially not a big one.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 5 2011, 05:29 PM

I doubt the conversation would take place that way. More likely:

LS/Guard: "Give us your weapons"
Cyberweapon Guy (with licenses, not sure if there are any for cyberweapons):"Here is my Ares Predator and I also have this and that weapon implanted. My commlink starts sending the licensedata now."
Cyberweapon Guy without licenses: "Here is my Ares Predator." *waits for the cops to come closer to rip them to shreds with his spurs*/*hopes that his betaware will not be detected*

I just checked, all cyberguns are restricted but all cyber melee weapons except for the shock hand are forbidden

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 05:30 PM

Same goes for mages actually.
Since there is NO WAY to stop a mage from casting, he either gets a bullet to the back of the head or he gets drugged into oblivion and kept in a coma.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 05:31 PM

Magemasks are pretty good at stopping casting... can't cast at what you can't see...

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 05:34 PM

Well, you still have touch spells. Also, can you cast through eyes of the pack?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 05:36 PM

Not quite true. Magemanacles do exist. When the mage starts shaping mana it gives them an electric shock that disrupts the casting. It also has some natural earth within so the mage can't freely Astral Project (As everyone knows, the Earth has a astral form, and while it can be pushed through, the mage would take time to do that. Time the guards can use to actively notice the attempt.) I've also heard of practices involving implanting ware into mages who commit heinous crimes to reduce, or eliminate their magical ability.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 05:39 PM

Would Astral Perception not get around this?

Furthermore, they don't really stop the casting or disrupt it, because there is no way to do that . .
So if the mage can take the shock without too much trouble, he will still be able to cast spells . . .
And just for the sake of argument, if the spell casting is stopped, he usually still can summon something to eat you.
Or to possess himself.

Also, yes, implanting something into the mage to get rid of his magic . . sure . . uhuh . . yeah . . no . . right . .
"he tried to escape, we had to shoot him" < = easier and MUCH cheaper!
And if the mage has no sin, then nobody will complain anyway . .
You are getting assigned a criminal SIN by lonestar.
Lonestar "forgets" to do so and you never existed, so they can not have killed you.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 05:42 PM

Assuming your GM reads/enacts the fluff, I believe I read somewhere that the only sense that actually creates a magical link is sight (well, astral sight too, but that's an awakened characteristic anyway) even touch doesn't create the link, but is necessary only to the spell. It sounds odd to me, yeah, and I prefer to allow touch to create said link, but that's how I understand it.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 05:43 PM

I'm fairly sure those only prevent astral projection, not casting of spells. I'll double check though...

And to my knowledge, none of those things prevent summoning.


No, astral perception can't go through solid objects, so would be stopped by the mask. You might be able to see an aura if someone puts their hand against the front of your mask though, but unless they were dual natured, you wouldn't be able to cast a spell since you only have an astral LoS to them, not a physical one.

Edit: Hmm, looks like the magecuffs kind of go back and forth. The fluff seems to indicate projection and perception only, but the rules say that any magic activates them, so they certainly should work on spell casting and even summoning. The mage mask doesn't prevent summoning or astral projection beyond forcing a Willpower + Intuition (4) test. But since it lists no penalty for failure, there isn't much reason a mage couldn't attempt it every IP and eventually succeed.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 05:46 PM

Touch spells work because you cast them on yourself and you always have a magical connection to yourself.
So cast at yourself, then touch someone to get the spell to go zapity.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 05:52 PM

No. Physical objects appear as washed out, but discernable objects that don't impede movement, but do block visibility on the astral.



You're right. It would be easier. And unless it's a really upstanding officer, I doubt a SINless, and dangerous, runner would make it to lock up. Unless, of course, said runner was involved, and could be proven (even illegally) to have been involved, in a high profile case. Besides, I didn't necessarily mean Lonestar, or expensive ware (Not that there is much that isn't expensive...). There is also the possibility of the mage going into volunteered lab assistant status, as well.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 05:58 PM

Oh, and keep in mind that the shock on the cuffs is 12S(e) which is going to put just about anything except a dwarf/troll hybrid on the ground.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 05:58 PM

And assuming you are in a Mage Mask, who are you exactly touching?
What Eyes of the Pack? If you refer to a Spell, you must still be able to see the "Pack" that you are effecting, if I remember correctly (or at least be able to touch them). And no, you still could not cast through their senses.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 06:01 PM

Nope, becasue you cannot pierce the MageMask even in the Astral, as it blocks LOS.



Yes, all viable possible angles. Put the Mage in a Ward, though, and it is possible he cannot summon anything viable, and MageManacles would tend to stop such things anyways. Are you not going to put the mage in a warded location, likely underground? The Prison Systems I would design for mages would include such things.

And yes, if the Mage is without SIN, he may find himself quite dead, though that would be a waste of a perfectly good deniable asset that you could coerce into your service.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 06:04 PM

That son of a slitch that put you in the mask

Yes, I mean the spell which is touch range and so does not require you to see your pack at all. You just need to touch them for the initial casting and then maintain it. But yeah, found the line, no targeting through the sense, ah well.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 06:06 PM

Ahh, I see, you actually thought you were awake when he masked and manacled you... Hmmm....

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 5 2011, 06:07 PM

I still don't think it's reasonable for a professional criminal mercenary to not keep track of PAN devices unexpectedly removed, but okay. It isn't *impossible*.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 5 2011, 06:09 PM

Agreed... After all, a Shadowrunner lives by his Equipment. To assume that he just doesn't care is a BIG assumption.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 06:18 PM

Or more like he maybe forgot something from his list of 500 things that he always apparently does when he got his new commlink after having to ditch his old one.

I mean, if you think about it, there are a ton of things that every shadowrunner likely should do for various reasons, so I don't think it is too unreasonable that some of the things can occasionally be forgotten, or simply be too obscure or irrelevant to be used yet. For example, before the first time a runner loses a piece of equipment unknowingly, they likely wouldn't consider how handy it would be to have a really big popup when something goes missing from the PAN unexpectedly.

And also, as I said, something could have been taken, but still be connected to the PAN thanks to routing happening automatically.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 06:27 PM

It is possible that it could be in your PAN once it is removed, but the idea is that when putting Skinlink on it, you disabled the wireless transmitter. If it isn't transmitting, it won't be in your PAN. I appreciate that you are trying to help my argument, but that doesn't seem to work to me. How I see things isn't necessarily how other people see them. It is ultimately up to the GM to decide, and the player to react to.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 07:13 PM

Oh yeah, good point, forgot we were talking about skinlinked devices for a moment. In that case they most likely would drop from the PAN right away.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 07:20 PM

Just wanted to apologize for earlier. Realized that I cared to much about trying to get people to understand and that's not something under my control.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 07:30 PM

Really, because I've seen the opposite trend, maybe i go to better clubs.

For what it's worth if my read on skinlink is correct my guestimation is it's somehow modulating your bodies bioelectic to send the necessary signals. If that is the case it should actually work in exactly the opposite way from what's described as we're talking about an electric field that doesn't really have an appreciable power source and is literally too low to measure. Now imagine what happens when that field is exposed to even other casual electric fields in the enviroment, it would be disrupted. Lets not even mind what happens when sucha field would be exposed to a field whose intention o create jamming.

But let's table that for a moment and presume that science has bypassed those hurdles as well as the air, skin, skull, fluid, interface barrier necessary to make trodes work on the same level as a physical connection. My question is once we've gone with that assumption we can start to look at what else could science do logically rather then just making sure the mage and the adept doesn't suffer any downsides from their career choices. Effectively what trodes and smartlink do under 4E is a fiber optic pipe connection over wireless. My question is within the realm of that engineering what would the fiber optic pipe now be carrying. For me that makes me think that the fiber optic pipe (datajack) should be twice as effective, essentially moving twice as fast. Since making them move literally twice as fast would be hard to reconcile without doing funny things with IP's i feel the best fix is to give them essentially double the actions. Most matrix actions eat up a complex action anyway.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 07:50 PM

You still run into the problem of that giving a huge advantage over matrix entities such as sprites, though I suppose you could give this bonus to all matrix entities as well, but there might be some trouble reconciling with physical interactions through the matrix (A pilot would give a drone 6 complex and 6 free actions a turn, a skilled enough rigger could give it 10 and 10. A skilled enough TM... is scary x.x)

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 08:06 PM

Only if you see that as a problem, personally i believe that a dedicated hacker should be better then a sprite, just having a datajack won't make you better then a sprite without the skills to back it up. At the high end for AI's and free sprites it might be a problem.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 5 2011, 08:11 PM

Also, as pointed out in another thread a while back, the skinlinked version lacks DNI and thus can't eject your clip as a free action.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 08:13 PM

It makes IC a total joke though.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 5 2011, 08:14 PM

It's a damn good pick pocket who can scoop my implanted comlink out of my head without me noticing.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 08:14 PM

It lacks DNI unless you also have a skinlinked trode.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 08:16 PM

Exactly.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 5 2011, 08:51 PM

While this may be RAI it definitely isn't RAW. You do not need a DNI for the Eject clip action to become a Free one. All you need is a smart gun.

Posted by: suoq Jun 5 2011, 08:51 PM

So, your character now has an internal commlink because the old one got pickpocketed one time too many? Pickpocketing has become enough of a threat that implanted commlinks are now cost effective?

Are you also now using cybereyes instead of skinlinked goggles?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 09:00 PM

Did you read what he was replying to? You said that 'any case in which you would lose a non-implanted device, you would also lose the implanted device'. He was providing a contradiction to that statement, not saying that people have internal commlinks because they are afraid of pickpockets (Though it is just one more advantage).

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 5 2011, 09:02 PM

Actually it is raw per unwired.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 5 2011, 09:40 PM

I would so go for a system where Magic is limited in the way that I suggested. It turns getting cyber for a magic/technomancer character from a no-brainer to a "OMG, do I REALLY want that <insert 'ware system> THAT badly? I also think that it fits a burnout mage better if his magic truly limited if he gets 'ware.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jun 5 2011, 10:09 PM

So it seems there are some good arguments for cyber characters not getting something like radar, a cyber deck, or a datajack implanted. Well so what? That just leaves more room for a cyber character to implant more things they do need. I guess if you have a cyber limb you may run out of useful things to implant in it with capacity, but maybe that should be combated by adding new things you can implant.

That makes me think. Maybe all cyberlimbs could get a small bonus (maybe by percent) to how much can be implanted in them. It is a small enough advantage that is might not imbalance but instead balance things.

Anyway I think we will be getting more gene tech in the next edition. Ultimately this is pros of being a mundane with cyber vs. being a mage passably also with cyber. That and a mundane character not having enough things to spend karma on.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 10:18 PM

Huh?
Cyberlimbs have capacity limits, that is the limit for how much you can put into them . .
Doesn't mean you can't get more into one Limb than the limb has capacity, but then the implant needs to use Essence.
So this only works for stuff that have both capacity and essence cost listed. So no attribute Enhancements for Essence.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 5 2011, 10:19 PM

What exactly is the pro of being a mundane with cyber vs a mage with cyber? That there is more genetech coming out in some future edition? That you can ignore implanting some things because they have a non-implant exact equivalent? The first doesn't benefit mundane more than awakened because awakened can use genetech, and the second benefits awakened because that means they don't have to waste essence on things like a datajack.

Posted by: Irion Jun 5 2011, 10:27 PM

As a matter of fact, mages pay extra for genetech so this is really not such a good choice for them.

As a matter of fact, I think a datajack is one of those things you should take if it fits the character. Some academic background. Get a datajack.

The idea of KCKitsune would really limit the usefullness of ware for the awakend. And lets be honest.
The non augmented mage or adept is not really the problem. Is he?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 5 2011, 10:33 PM

The unaugmented Mage lobbing Mana-Balls left and right at Force 10 is a Problem.
The unaugmented Adept is so bad that he's basically extinct.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 5 2011, 10:34 PM

Possibly the most easy to implement, and also balls to the walls crazy with its implications, is to take Unwired's note about Interface types (manual vs DNI) at face value, and then go a step further and assume that -any- use of a DNI device is a free action, instead of the listed action types in the main book.

Since free actions can explicitly be delayed till later in the pass, this change single handedly changes decking into an incredibly convoluted game of wits where everyone is trying to out-maneuver everyone else, and pure virtual speed - initiative - becomes very, very important, and very very deadly. (Important note: This is completely ridiculous balls-to-the-walls taking off the power limiters of the matrix. Hackers can now take 3 actions per pass, and the only other counter is a faster hacker who can step in and cockblock them.)

In order to emphasize the difference between Trodes and Jacks: Trodes or other external DNI let you take ONE action per pass like this. Jacks let you take ALL of them.
Optional distinction: You need internal cyber DNI to achieve hotsim - with your skull in the way, the best you can get is cold.
To even things up, Manual Control is alwas a simple action in the same way that dni is always free, leaving the Combat Texters feeling useful.
Pre-emptive rigger nerf: While using DNI to rig, the cold limitations of plastic and steel slow you down. When executing a command that has a physical result, such as driving, executing a maneuver, or shooting a gun, you may only execute that command once per pass. (the advantage a rigger now has is that they can make a driving test, make a sensor test, and shoot someone, but can't shoot someone 3 times in one pass).

Edit: Bringing Sanity Back to the matrix: You can only take the same action once each pass, unless its already a free action(in which case you an do it as often as you have actions). This prevents 3 hack on the fly checks, or 3 attacks, but expands your options(you can attack and crash, or hack and spoof a trace.) After realizing what I'd written and suggested, this rule is kind of necessary.

Posted by: Irion Jun 5 2011, 10:36 PM

@Stahlseele

The good old manaball. I would check with an edge test if the mage sees the guys at the moment the ball hits.
Because if you shoot and take cover behind a crate, you are not visible. So no LOS so no DAMAGE!
Thats the BONUS for direct spells. If you enforce that, manaballs tend to be less scary.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 10:47 PM

That is a fair point. Might be tough getting GM's to enforce it, although I know I'll certainly try.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 5 2011, 10:49 PM

Which unaugmented mage can do that? Last time I checked a Force 10 Manaball is 7 drain. Assuming 6 in both drain attributes the mage will drop after the fourth spell.

@Irion: While you have to have LOS to affect people with the spell, you cannot duck into cover before the spell hits. Targeting and hitting the target take place at the same time. Either you are still in cover so you can't target the spell or you are not yet in cover and the spell goes off before you are back in cover.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 5 2011, 10:57 PM

Yeah. This is true. Direct spells don't actually travel the distance, they spontaneously affect from the mana surrounding the target(s). But, it still needs LOS. And if the target moves behind a crate from a delayed turn, then the Mage may be SOL

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 12:01 AM

@Dakka Dakka
So, my point is still valid.
Is everybody in LOS the moment the spell is cast or not?

The LOS thing is the biggest disadvantage of direct spells. I think it should matter.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 12:03 AM

Only if she can move at the speed of light or moves before the mage actually sees her.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jun 6 2011, 12:44 AM

Ok here is the advantage to being mundane, you don't need to dump lots of points magical... That and why not go for a lot of cyber, gene tech, and bioware.

Having more points freed up at that start might let you buy some other things that cost a lot of points and are only available at character creation. Species, surge, other qualities. Adding more qualities would help out mundanes, but also awakened, but I argue it would help out mundanes more because they have more build points free to buy up the useful qualities. I argue that the same is true for adding more bioware, genetech, and cyberware except instead of build points it is essence.

Anyway on an unrelated note, I have been thinking that to make cyberware a better choice there needs to be some way for later game characters to sink some karma into their cyberware. Maybe after a runner has had their gear for a while and has become very used to it he is able to eek out a little more performance from his enhancements. These would be like 5 and 10 point qualities; not something everyone has, just the rare few who have 10 to 20 karma to spend on small bonuses. The mechanics of are more tricky because so many augmentations give very small bonuses of one or two dice and adding just one more dice seems like a large improvement. But you could still write qualities for specific gear.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 6 2011, 01:37 AM

And how many of those are you EVER gonna need?
One left, one right, one dead center, more is usually not needed . .
If you DO need more than three force 10 spells, then you are in much deeper shit anyway and don't need to care about dropping after the fourth anymore . .

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 03:43 AM

One with centering, centering foci and a blood fetish for Manaball

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 09:06 AM

@Badmoodguy88
I guess the most obvious example is an adept.
If you stick with the rules:
You start with Karmagen and you take the adept quality, one point of ware and increase your magic from one to two. (As a matter of fact you could take the adept quality after taking the ware and so get around the problem of paying for the lost point.

So depending on how you role you get one point of ware for 10 Karma or X point of ware for 0 Karma.
In play you keep increasing and dropping your magic attribute till you have the essence loss you want.
This coust 10 Karma per point. I guess 4 points are more than enough. (40 Karma)
Now you start buying up magic.
2: 10 Karma.
3: 15+13(*0.6)Karma
4: 20+16*(0.6) Karma.
5: 25+19*(0.6) Karma.
6: 30+21*(0.6)Karma
So 148 to 220 Karma for 4 points of ware, 6 points of magic and 5 points of initiation.
(Quite a deal if you consider, that with improved ability (4 to 6) you may save yourself around 22KArma for 0.5 Powerpoints. Do this with 3 Powerpoints and you got yourself 22*6=132 Karma saved. )
And you do not need to go this high. Drop the last 2 Points and the Karma cost go down to 95 Points!

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 10:59 AM

Except you can't do neither of these think in chargen, the order in witch you do thinks in chargen doesn't matter one bit, you always lose 1 point of magic for every point of missing essence.

Also awesome job "breaking" the system with your character thats only viable after 100+ karma

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 11:34 AM

You might take two points of essence loss in Chargen for additional 5 Karma. (After your ruling)

Yes, he won't be at start a bit behind the sam who dumped everything in ware. So what?
This is true for any character. (Well, may be not mages but thats a different story)

Three points of ware and one point of magic is easy to get. Costs around 60 Karma, 10 out of chargen.

(Not to mention, that cybering up to the point of no return is not helpfull for every concept)


After you took the quality. Nothing is preventing you from doing it the other way around. RAW. (Even enforced with what is written to latend awakening)
Thats why the rules for essence loss are silly.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 11:49 AM

The order in witch you do thinks in chargen doesn't matter at all.

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 12:21 PM

@Mäx
So why are you making one order mandatory?
Why can't I get muscle augmentation 3 (used), a pair of cybereys, a muscle augmentation 3 (used) and after that get myself the adept quality for a magic of 1?
Is there any rule which says I can't? Because it is stated perfectly clear, that I may pick qualities at any time I choose.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 12:33 PM

I'm pretty sure that even in KarmaGen all your final stats are calculated at the end. So you bought(with the quality) MAG 1. You lost at least 1.54 Essence due to ware. The finished character has an Essence of 5.4 and MAG 0 and is burned out.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 6 2011, 01:13 PM

Actually, Yes...

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 01:35 PM

That's weird, since there's no compelling mechanic to make that choice sufficiently attractive, which translates into no compelling IC reason to make it.

Cybereyes and ears stopped working as an option when cheap equivalents were introduced. You've always been able to replicate some of their functions with gear, but always at some functional penalty. Equivalent functionality means the cheaper option wins. Go against simple economics if you want, but don't pretend that it's pragmatic.

Now the only reason to take them is as replacements if you can't get cloned parts.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 6 2011, 01:43 PM

And yet, as a Mage, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I may now cast spells through, which you cannot use Glasses or goggles for...
And yet, as a Mundane, I can now have multiple Forms of Visual sense (IR, Lowlight, etc) with my eyes that I cannot easily be deprived of.

So what if it costs an insignificant amount essence and a bit more money. Big deal. Many Character's will not care about such insignificant things.

And as a Note, They are not equivalent. Glasses and earbuds can be easily removed, damaged or destroyed, while the implanted versions are much more robust, may be indistinguishable from the Normal parts, and no one will care it they set of a Scanner. They are Ubiquitous. Cheaper rarely means better.

Simple Economics? Please... Are you going to buy a poroduct Once per year for half the Cost of the Expensive One, or are you going to buy the more Expensive one that will last 10 Times as long? I know which route I will take. I do not like purchasing something multiple times, just because it is a cheap piEce of crap. Give me durability every time.

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 01:55 PM

Cybereyes are quite a no brainer for mages since google do not work for casting and astral perception is great but has a rats tail of disadvantages.
Still would need a google to read a sign in the dark but you would need to but the googles down to cast a spell. Fucked up.

Then they are just dirt cheap.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 6 2011, 01:58 PM

For some tools, keeping them as gear makes fair sense - all manner of scanners are just fine as handhelds. But I'm not too happy about trodes being basically a better way to do the same as a datajack, or goggles making cybereyes obsolete.

So what would be good IG reasons for cyberware to be good? Then we can translate those IG reasons to OOC rules.

* Trodes could fall off, or get torn off in combat; someone could smear out the pattern on your nanopaste trodes. Maybe they need to be reapplied every couple of hours if you're sweating a lot?

* Maybe trode-DNI could be vulnerable to jamming? They're transmitting and receiving very faint electromagnetic signals from your brain. I think that could be jammed, or even burnt out with an EMP. (I hold that radio antennas, being electromagnetic-based, should always be somewhat vulnerable to EMP; particularly if they're small).

The big draw of a datajack over trodes would simply be reliability in field conditions. Trodes are fine at home, but if you're infiltrating in the wild, a datajack is just less likely to fail when you need it.

Cybereyes:
* If iris ID is more prevalent, then that mod that allows you to fake irises would come into play often enough, and I don't think contacts or glasses can really fake that one.
* Maybe zooming in with Image Magnification would be slower with glasses, because you need to actually access some sort of controls, while a cybereye moves really really fast (like real eyesight)?

Cyberlimbs/Torso
* If a significant part of your body isn't organic anymore, maybe all kinds of splash poison weapons have a reduced chance to penetrate into your metabolism?
* Maybe cyberlimbs should have custom armor options to protect yourself against various elemental damage types? Such as getting fireproof arms, letting you actually reach into a flame without injury?
* More elegant rules for combining cyberlimbs with a CCU would be nice..

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 02:04 PM

Why not just roll a W6. If the number is smaller than the present cyberparts, the poison does not affect you?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 02:08 PM

If you start there you should continue with worse results, when the poison hits. There is a lot less mass for the same dose of poison.

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 02:13 PM

@Dakka Dakka
This would lead to far. (There are poisons which scale very good with mass and there are some which don't)
Your general resistance to poison is body.
(Yes, this is kind of silly with cyberware)
But the question was: Making cyber better and not making the system realistic.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 02:29 PM

And cybereyes can get damaged, too. There's just no longer an explicit system for losing body part functionality. Basing a rant on 'cheap flimsy crap' is disingenuous. There's no reason to expect to lose eyewear (much of which can be handled optically instead of electronically) at a much higher rate than cybereyes, especially with the materials strength of things in SR.

As a mage, 'insignificant' essence loss is still essence loss. It's not a renewable resource.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 02:29 PM

I'm not sure why you couldn't get optical subsystems in your goggles rather than electronic systems. If the technology exists for optical cybereyes you'd definitely have the ability to make optical goggles.

I think part of the power issue is that while cost of cyber has gone down to the point where adepts and mages can field critical cyber if needed many of the critical items for a mundane build are still extremely expensive from an essence perspective even if you go with alpha or betaware. Qualities can help reduce the cost but many of the cool qualities are roughly as expensive as being an adept and being an adept can net you some nice toys.

In my mind cyber IP boosters are the major culprit with cyberlimbs close behind. Even at betaware essence discounts wired reflexes are still incredibly costly in terms of your essence pool and going with synaptic booster 2 will eat up a large percentage of your starting nuyen. Combat drugs or the various awakened IP boosters (spells and adept powers) can negate much of that speed advantage and awakened have the benefit of having no effective cap on their potential power level. Most samurai don't really have that luxury unless they get rebuilt as a cyberzombie in a deltaware clinic.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 6 2011, 02:45 PM

How often does that theoretical unlimited power growth of mages vs. the finite growth of others really happen? I mean, it's interesting in theory, but how often does the Sammie player complain that he's got nothing interesting to spend karma on?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 02:53 PM

Right out of chargen when the sammie already has 6 points in her weapon skill of choice

But lets try and avoid the mage comparisons again as we've already gotten side tracked with that when the topic here is more along the lines of making cyber better than their gear equivalents than making cyber comparable to magic.

Also, someone mentioned a mod for cybereyes to deal with retinal scanners. I'm fairly sure that is already in augmentation somewhere, possibly under nanoware.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 03:01 PM

Just thought about quick and dirty fix: Invent a quality similar to Type O System but for Cyberware.

The point is not that cybereyes for mages are optical but that they are paid for with essence and thus integral part of the character. Even electronic enhancements work for spell targetting, if they are paid for with essence. (Un)fortunately this is only the case with Eyeware.

@optical goggles. There are only a few enhancements that can be done optically IRL: vision magnification, microscopic vision. The interesting stuff lowlight vision and thermographic vision cannot. I doubt that the physics will change a lot between now and 2070.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 03:03 PM

That's a rules change that should be made, yes. (If reducing non-implant options for mages is your goal, but I'm assuming it is in this thread.)

I think a Type O cyberware (ignoring the fluff problem) is a little *too* quick and dirty, though. There are some pretty crazy builds out there already.

What aspect of cyber specifically are we hoping to improve here? Reducing Essence cost/increasing effect Essence on Wires and limbs sounds like a terrible idea, on the face of it. So, are we saying those are both much too weak already? While Wires is a very popular (vital) upgrade, there are so many other implants to talk about as well. What about bioware? It's basically the same power as cyber, at vastly inflated prices—does it 'need' to be buffed, too?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 03:05 PM

It's in the main book. Retinal Duplication SR4A p. 340. It does not work well however.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 03:08 PM

Hmm, yeah, with a max DP of 6, it is hard to beat anything in an opposed roll.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 03:08 PM

The you-paid-essence loophole on magic targeting is lame. I can't imagine an archetype that needs fewer concessions than mages. Especially since they can pop stimpatches and take major wounds without fear of magic loss now.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 03:10 PM

*shrug* Removing cybereyes for Awakened would be a huge change in the SR canon, and it would affect everything from wagemages to ghouls. I thought we were talking about making cyber better, not mages worse?

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 03:13 PM

The optical goggles could just have transparent layers with electronic data super-imposed over it, just like AR data is superimposed when seen through AR Goggles. You could still see through the regular goggles. Night Vision can be accomplished through optical rather than electronic means (although it is bulkier), thermographic would still be problematic but I think most mages can make due with low-light vision.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 03:16 PM

And no longer having to be deathly afraid of Magic loss isn't a huge change in SR canon? The dynamic changed when involuntary Magic loss became rare to nonexistent, making minor essence trades relatively safe.

But yes, back to cyberimprovement.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 03:30 PM

I think you could do something like limit the speed with which skinlinked gear reacts. One of the key advantages of cyber is the DNI + the relative speed of transmission between the brain and the internal/external gear. Simply put light or electrical signals over super-conductive wires should move way faster than data transmitted over the normal nervous system or skin-link. When you are talking targeting data transmitted to goggles for instance that speed differential should be tangible.

In previous editions it was a smaller boost because smart goggles were less efficient. For 4e you could make it so that smartgun + smart goggles + skin-link can only be used on the first IP or maybe 2 IPs maximum. That way if you want the benefit for high IP characters you need to go full DNI, likely with a cybereye and smartgun with a external wire leading to a datajack.

The gunbunny adept is thus forced to invest at least minimally in cyber to keep up with the gunbunny wired dude.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 03:50 PM

You just dont get it, the order doesn't matter one bit, the magic loss happens no matter what order you do think in chargen.
If you take a bunch of ware and then desice to be an awekened, then if you don't buy more magic you start the game as burn-out as you magic gets reduces below zero at the end of chargen.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 6 2011, 03:53 PM

The fear of magic loss is largely up to the GM, I would say. In my games I use the Augmentation mass damage rules, and wouldn't rule out magic/essence loss as a result, though it wouldn't be my first choice, either. There is also addiction, and focus addiction. If magic is getting out of hand in your campaigns, and the mages are too heavily relying on things that can cause those, then enforce it. Focus addiction, in particular, makes mages weaker, and if they risk reaching the burn out stage, they can be pretty well neutered.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 6 2011, 03:56 PM

This depends on the GM, I think. I'm sure most GM's on here, based on what I've seen, would prefer to reduce magic then give them an early boost, if they get augmented, but I've had GM's who have told me to keep my magic when I played a slightly cybered mage. I honestly don't know which is right, nor do I think it matters, just what the GM prefers.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 04:08 PM

I suspect what some people are doing is this.

Buy Metatype + Abilities + Skills

Buy Cyberware have it impact essence since you are still mundane at this point it doesn't impact magic score.

Then Buy Awakened Quality get 1 free Magic point and spend left over BPs on boosting magic.

As long as Magic <= Essence you are all good.

By choosing the order of operations it seems you can minimize BP expenditure on a cyber awakened character.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 04:10 PM

However the calculation of final stats should only happen after all BP/Karma is spent.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 6 2011, 04:14 PM

I think what's needed is for cyberware to
* Do stuff that external gear can't do
* Do stuff better than external gear
* Do stuff that can't be (easily) magically replicated

Essence and money costs shouldn't be prohibitive, but generally, they aren't prohibitive right now. I don't think reducing Essence costs is the way to go; it doesn't help in the "vs. Gear" competition. Also, it makes it accessible for Awakened, which not everyone thinks is desirable.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 04:19 PM

Any kind of 'I buy my ware first, THEN Awaken' trickery is unconscionable.

Sounds good, Ascalaphus. Many aspects of cyber are just implanted versions of external stuff, so we'd just ignore that. But things like smartlinks, 'natural' vision modes, DNI, these I can see cyberware retaining a real edge in. As the game progresses, we do get a lot of 'cyber/gear/magic/Resonance' equivalent sets… and I agree that's often a bad thing.

So, in terms of 'fixing' cyber, this means the sort of ideas that popped up earlier (penalties to external DNI, smartlink, etc.), or… what? Inventing new and uniquely-cyber items, that can't be external and can't be magic? Emphasizing the implants that already fit that category? Removing magic/gear/Resonance equivalents?

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 04:22 PM

Latent Awakening however allows you to start with a Magic of 1 regardless of how wired you are as long as essence > 1. Your magic maximum is the only thing modified downward.

So you could start out with 5 points of cyber/bioware and still have a magic of 1 once you finally awaken. And then you initiate...

Other than no having a choice on when you finally awaken there really isn't much a downside.

In contrast the chargen guy with 5 points of cyber/bioware who wants to start with a magic of 1 seems like they would have to spend at minimum of 70 BP (5 (adept) + 40 (to raise magic to 5) + 25 (to reach maximum) ) to achieve a similar build.

Because latent is so much more efficient I suspect that some people must be doing the awakened qualities after applying cyberware effects.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 6 2011, 04:26 PM

Citation needed.

Seriously. Quote the part of the rules with page number and book added.
Because it's usually maximum AND actual magic attribute getting lowered.
Meaning you would have to start with 2 magic because your 0 magic got lowered to -1 Magic.
It's the way math works. It's magical!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 04:26 PM

Ah, I thought we were talking about chargen. Latent qualities have their one whole set of drawbacks that have been discussed at length in other threads; suffice it to say, knock yourself out. Unless you're starting with a couple hundred extra karma, Latent won't make you acceptable, let alone stronger.

Stahlseele, that's just how *Latent* works. Don't worry, it's a horrible option.

At chargen, though, you simply don't get to say 'okay, done with cyber, now I'll buy up my Magic'.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 04:34 PM

Yep latent awakening is a stupid quality. It has plenty of downsides but it explicitly allows these kinds of shenanigans.

Now personally I don't allow any order of operation shenanigans in char-gen (qualities are purchased after metatype but before abilities, skills, gear) but I suspect that some groups do. Of course those groups might wonder why everyone plays awakened characters in those games

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 04:53 PM

Anyway since this is supposed to be about making cyber gear more appealing I'll get back on track.

As I see it the primary advantages of ware options are as follows.

1) More concealable- This could be a major modifier if you are a face wanting to fast talk a corp sec guard. Black trenchcoat + mirrorshades should be a warning sign for anyone

2) Harder to steal/confiscate- Disabling cyber is certainly possible and even mandatory in some meets but it's a lot harder for LoneStar/Knight Errant/etc to hold onto your stuff pending an investigation.

3) Possibly faster- As I mentioned above a DNI using superconductive wires and/or fiber-optic switching should be much faster than it's skinlink counterpart simply because of transmission rates and relative bandwidth.

4) Possibly better shielded- If skin-link depends on the electrical field of the human body for transmission of data then it should be extraordinarily vulnerable to electrical interference. Get hit by a taser and chances are your skin-link equipment just got fried, etc. Cyberware should be more resistant because it's using shielded/optical systems for the transmission.

5) Cooler - Debatable

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 05:06 PM

I like #4 as a possibility. Even a flat +1 for implanted gear against Jamming or EMP might be a nice little boost (though it's already true that implants all have jam-proof connections to each other). I'm not sure if there's a fluff *reason* for that, though.

I don't agree about equipment getting fried, though. Canon is that basically everything is optronic in SR4, so only antennae are vulnerable to EMP (and presumably shock).

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 05:14 PM

I guess my logic is that skinlink requires some sort of electrical sensor in order to pick up something a low intensity as fluctuations in the body's electrical field. So while the internal workings are probably optronic the sensors themselves are sensitive to being hit by a big electrical spike.

The guts of the goggle/commlink/smartgun would be fine but the ability for them to mesh via skin-link would be compromised until you had time to work on the sensors with an extended hardware test. In the meantime you'd just have to re-enable the wireless PAN mesh but that has other costs associated with it.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 05:14 PM

Are you seriously saying that you as a GM sit with all of your players one by one and enforce that they build their characters step by step, with every step being locked after you move to the next with no changes allowed to it any more.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 05:17 PM

I just make sure that my players aren't the kinds of people who like to cheat at RPGs, personally.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 05:19 PM

No but final stats are simply calculated at the end. Though I haven't used KarmaGen, even with it, latent awakening would only happen in actual play.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 05:21 PM

Max, it's usually pretty obvious if someone's cheating that way. It's blatant.

Yeah, I see where you're going, Vuron. Basically that's just making S&S stronger. :/ Hmm. Well, couldn't hurt to try it, though I feel like it honestly wouldn't come up very often. Most people using tasers *are* the shadowrunners.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 05:30 PM

I'm saying that in the case of many beneficial qualities (in particular awakened qualities) they should be applied at or near the beginning of char gen. It makes sense for some people to be born with the "magic" gene or the "TM" gene even if those genes don't get expressed until later in life. Same with characters that undergo Goblinization at puberty, or kids that inherit gene-modification in utero, etc.

Other qualities aren't as critical as to when they happen during Char Gen as they don't tend to modify much. I'm not a ginormous fan of post char gen purchase of positive qualities but certain ones are appropriate such as erased, etc. However just like I wouldn't allow someone to purchase a new metatype after char-gen there are various qualities that should be limited to char gen and specifically to various phases of char gen in order to avoid any mechanical chicanery.

As to trusting your players, you either trust them or you don't. As long as they are trust-worthy and you are willing to go over certain expectations prior to char-gen I see no need to do face-to-face char gen other than avoid the occasional problem with one or more character role not being covered.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jun 6 2011, 05:35 PM

Yeah, honestly, it's not too big of a deal to tell the players what order you want them to do things in chargen and then expect them to do it. In any case, a quick review of the character sheets once they're done rather quickly reveals if anyone took major liberties.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 06:03 PM

Well i just fail to see how the order matters at all, i atleast do think in what ever order i feel like and everythink might change at anypoint even the race and whether or not the character is an awekened of somekind.
How does it matter at all whether or not the character being an adept or an ork was the first think done in chargen or almost the last change?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 06:03 PM

Don't forget augmentation addiction

Personally I don't concern myself with the order that I get things in chargen at all, and just calculate what things cost at the end, and that is basically how the rules tell you to treat it as well.

So you don't buy one essence of ware and then buy up magic and then buy more essence and more magic, you just have X essence of ware, and your magic is lowered by X from whatever you bought it up to at the end of creation.

I think the easiest way to give ware a boost is to take everything that has a gear equivalent in ware and give it a +1 DP bonus to whatever it helps with. So a datajack gives you an extra +1 DP over trodes, and an implanted simsense module gives you another +1 over the gear version (Or perhaps a +1 to matrix init). Cybereye enhances give Rating+1 to perception checks, and maybe thermo/low light on the cybereyes have the vision penalties improved by 1 point over the equivalent in glasses (You might also consider that the glasses must put out some light to see what's on them in total darkness, which might make you a very easy target).

You might consider giving matrix entities (Pilots, sprites, etc) a 1-2 point bonus to all their actions to make up for the new cyber bonus.

This makes cyber out and out more useful than the gear counterparts without requiring the effort and balancing of trying to come up with new niche gear, of which there is already quite a bit (I mean, there is no gear equivalent of muscle toner excepting milspec armor and drugs, both of which come with their own problems.)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 06:18 PM

… The order matters because it changes how much you spend on Magic. Obviously. The intent is to cheat the penalties for Essence loss. Yes, this is basically the only place it matters, and only because people are trying to cheat.

I dunno, Ghost. That's more DP-creep. :/ Certainly the reverse solution (gear penalties) has its own problems, like hurting the very low end… but I'm more okay with that.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 6 2011, 06:20 PM

No it doesn't, magic loss in chargen happens based on your final essence.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 06:23 PM

Of course it does. We all know that, cuz we're not cheating munchkins. But breaking *that* rule is exactly what's we're talking about here. People try to say, 'oh, I don't have to buy up my Magic because I awakened after all the cyber'. … That's literally the whole discussion. Vuron also mentioned Latent Awakening, which legitimately does that, but that's not during chargen in the first place.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 6 2011, 06:34 PM

This is why I put out my option of limiting the number of times you can initiate by your Essence. Sure you can take two points of 'Ware, but now you can only initiate 4 times rather than 6 times. Your Magic is now limited to 8 rather than 12 for an unaugmented mage. That would be a big deal for the Awakened/Emerged.

Now how to improve cyberware... I personally like the idea of going back to SR2 version of smart goggles. No weapon control (firing mode, eject clip, firing without pulling the trigger), and only +1 to your DP. Also, if you're using smartlink goggles/glasses, then you had better have a wire leading to the vision enhancement because the wireless signal can get jammed.

Also here's another idea... if you're wearing glasses, then your peripheral vision might be messed up, and you sure as heck not getting the vision mod bonuses. With cybereyes or contacts... no problem.

Finally make it so that using a cyberware version of external gear is a free action, but using it as an external piece of gear is a simple action. You have to futz with the control system and even the fastest person is not moving at the speed of thought.

****EDIT****

Latent Awakening... it should have been taken behind the wood shed and beaten to a nice bloody pulp. I say get rid of that crap. Now if the player wants to have his character Awaken after the start of the game and he still has 1.0+ Essence remaining, then have the player and the GM work something out. Don't make the player spend 5 BP on something that may have ZERO impact in the game.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 06:43 PM

Epicedion, that wasn't my change. I don't see how two wrongs makes a right in this case, either.

KCKitsune, the weapon control aspects are from your PAN (presumably, your trodes). The wireless won't get jammed because you're using skinlink. Your vision will be fine because you're using contacts, like you said. I agree with pointing out/implementing restrictions, but it only works if there aren't more holes right there.

Via the PAN (again, probably trodes), everyone *is* moving at the speed of thought. IIRC, using most gear without DNI is already a Simple action (like ejecting a clip without a smartlink, or any Use Simple Object).

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 6 2011, 06:46 PM

Introducing a restriction to balance a removed restriction isn't wrong in the same direction.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 06:56 PM

I'm just saying they're not related. If your problem is not enough danger from drugs or wounds, add more danger from drugs or wounds! Don't break another component of the canon. Besides, those cybereyes cost them at least a point of Magic, which isn't nothing. Is it often a good deal for desperate men? Sure. So?

One solution I've seen proposed (if not actually used) is just doubling awakened characters' Essence loss from 'ware (or, sometimes just from cyber), like the Eagle followers (IIRC).

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 07:37 PM

From where do you get that?
I do not arguee, that it is the most reasonable solution.
But it is nowhere written. As a matter of fact it works the other way around, anywhere you look.

From raising magic in game to latend awakening. It is a dirt cheap trick. Granted. But I can't find anything in the book telling it is illegal.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 07:41 PM

'If it doesn't say I can't, I can'. Oy. But yes, presumably they knew the GM would just slap people.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 07:48 PM

So basically you just make all awakened qualities 15 BP more expensive. Sensitive system does exactly that for cyberware. Not my cup of tea, but then I don't believe cyberware is underpowered, not unique enough etc.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 07:55 PM

It's not a rule I particularly advocate either. I just know I've heard it before. Applying it to bioware is the more novel aspect, though I personally don't find it very 'fair'. It's not really equivalent to a 15BP surcharge, because they can't get rid of it. If they take 'ware, they lose more Magic than currently, and they can't get as much 'ware. Again, not my personal solution, but undeniably a direct counter to the 'augmented mage problem' that Epicedion was focused on.

Posted by: Irion Jun 6 2011, 07:56 PM

@Yerameyahu

I guess thats why the introduced essence rules for the infected, which let them do exactly that.

The rules for essence lost are just not quite thought through.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 6 2011, 08:01 PM

Well, you have to take a gander at the whole shebang. Your first method, buying attributes and skills, then qualities once the first group are in a chargen "airlock", for example, points and laughs at both Exceptional Attribute and Exceptional SKill. Your human character paid 25 BP to raise his Agility from 5 to 6, then you bought the Exceptional quality, and now you don't get a refund of 15 BP from your attribute not being the max. You also can't go back and boost it to a 7, since, you know ... Airlock.

Ditto for skills.

And then you get an interaction with cyberware that hurts! For instance, you bought all your cyberware, put it into the Chargen Airlock, then bought qualities ... like teh ones that allow you to implant cyberware at a lowered essence cost. D'oh! Sorry Augmentation! You just printed a ton of sucky rules!

So, yeah, CHargen is a bit loosegoosey in terms of when you do things. There's no real 'step' method... heck, if there was, it might well be that you have to get qualities *first*, since they can adjust changes of gear and statlines!

So, yeah, trying to stuff your cyberware into an airlock so that you can buy magic in the cheap? Not valid, unless you invalidate a *ton* of qualities. The proper way would be RAW, which says that your Magic is reduced the same level as your essence was.

Now, personally?

In order to encourage the Burned-Out Mage archtype (Which I adore!) and to bring up the notion that there's a consequence to hacking your body apart, I lower the maximum magic that you can have, rather than your current magic, in a way similar to one poster up above limits Initiating to your Essence. This involves a "Magic Attribute Cap", just like all the other attributes have.

...

But this is getting off topic, isn't it?

New post, about cyberware, NEXT!

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 08:15 PM

2x essence costs for Awakened would probably work.

That way you'd still probably invest in some minimal upgrades (cybereyes, smart-link, possibly datajack) but for the most part you'd rely on spells or adept powers for the greater part of your schtick.

You could reduce the penalty for bioware options vis a vis the wired options but I think you'd have to increase the penalty for Bioware at least a little unless you want every awakened character to invest exclusively in bio options.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 6 2011, 08:18 PM

As for cyberware, once it starts getting outmoded, you need to give it the ol' one-two punch ... it gets easier to find (Lower availability) and drop the cost.

For example, have you gone back and looked at CYberlimbs in, say, second edition? HUGE cost, low benefits, but so essential to the genre that you wanted to see more of them? Thus, the cost dropped by 90% (!) and the utility went WAY up.

Start fiddling with other cyberware for similar effects.

For instance, who wants buclky ol' Vat-grown muscle replacement when bioware muscle augmentation/toners are sooo much sexier and softer on your essence? As everyone bails on your product, you need to slash prices to drive sales! 5000 per rating is just too high! How about 1000 Nuyen per rating, with an availability of X3, right out of the gate? Yeah, the essence cost is huge, but now the street grunts can muscle up on the cheap.

Nobody wants cyberweapons anymore aside from the scary old guy with a Wolverine fetish? Those availabilities have gotta go! Every backalley clinic in the sprawl has a pile of old cyber-implants, just lookin' for a new home! Retractable spurs? Availability 8! Retractable razors? How about a 4? NON-retractable razors? Availability - and only 500 Nuyen ... we're practically GIVING them away!

That's not even talking about new gear. I heard that Johnny Edge was testing the new Smartlin V system from Ares. Designed to link up to the Predator V (It's in alpha testing!), but it'll spread out from there. Turns out that it needs the neural connection that cybereyes grant, instead of the weaker link that goggles give. Maybe they'll clear it up in beta, maybe not, but ol' Johnny got the nod since he's got eyes that can handle it. They're rated as a +3, instead of the normal +2, but we don't know what the cost will be yet. Probably need to get some more field tests done, see what the feedback is, before they can start selling them for reals. Don't you wish you'd gone ahead and gotten chrome orbs now? Hey, I know a guy that's doing implants on the cheap right now...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 6 2011, 08:18 PM

Flat out double essence loss for anything that causes essence loss, if the loser is awakened.
Will take care of most of these problems and make adepts pretty much a fluff choice too . .

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 6 2011, 08:22 PM

I think the best options were already stated, and I'll just reiterate them:

Deduct essence loss from casting rolls (beneficial and hostile), AND from summoning rolls. That both makes mundanes stronger and makes taking anything above 1 essence loss quite unattractive for a mage, because now when casting on yourself you are losing 4 dice. Doesn't affect adepts so much, which is also good, because they are hampered without a bit of ware. REALLY nerfs mysads, because they already have so few casting dice, and mostly use them for buffing.

Give cyber (and bio) a flat +1 to DPs over gear options, and for each element involved in a roll. For example, implanted vision magnification and smartlink grant +2, total, to rolls involving both. You are also giving that option to essence 5 or 4 mages, but then it doesn't boost their primary skills. It does, however, make adepts better.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 08:22 PM

I agree, Wakshaani: cyberware already exhibits that feature. It's vastly cheaper than bio equivalents, with the tradeoff being Essence. That's what cyber is, and what it should be, in 2070. Are you saying 'go further'?

Posted by: squee_nabob Jun 6 2011, 08:35 PM

I’m a late comer, but I’ll start off with more useful ware. One problem is you can cap out on useful ware in character creation, and have to go with B list ware after that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 6 2011, 08:38 PM

That might be a point: is there simply not enough cool cyber for it to be a long-term advancement path?

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 6 2011, 08:41 PM

For certain aspects, yes, but only if you have the same view as the original poster... cyberware is 'dead' and so on. Giving cyber-eye'd smartlinks an extra +1 beyond what goggles can give falls under the 'improving cyberware' approach.

As for current stuff, 5000 for vatmuscles vs 15,000 for biomuscles isn't a huge difference, but the 1.0 essence vs 0.2 essence is massive. Alphamuscles won't close that gap ... heck, even delta muscles won't come close, but cost *way* more. The price difference sn't enough to seduce people very often ... when's the last PC you had with vat specials instead of bio? So, a little improvement, or at least cost reduction, would seem to be in order.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 08:41 PM

From the book:
Step 1: Metatype
Step 2: Qualities
Step 3: Attributes
Step 4: Skills
Step 5: Karma to Nuyen conversion
Step 6: Gear
Step 7: Contacts
Step 8: Make sure all your karma has been spent
Step 9: Apply modifiers to stats from implants and other sources, calculate derived stats such as init
Step 10: Roll for starting cash

So you can't do an essence drop/magic raise trick during chargen because your essence doesn't get lowered till step 9, which means your magic doesn't get changed till step 9.

Thank you for playing "Munchkin Tactics" but I'm afraid your method doesn't work.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 08:58 PM

I think there are cool options it's just that they aren't really available without pulling out really optional rules.

For instance I think there is a demand for full body conversions, both obvious and life-like like a Major Motoko from GitS but once you start doing 4 cyberlimbs, a cyber torso, a cyber skull and the required IP boosters (wired 2+) you are way way into needing bleeding edge cyberware + qualities and even then you aren't really that awesome.

Cyberzombies have significant playability issues that make them unworkable in most groups and borgs are pretty much clearly children trapped in a brain in the jar scenario. Plus rigging a body just seems like such a kludged solution.

Increasing essence cost helps tone down the cyber-mage and let's be honest the mages don't need the help and thus you really only have issues with the relative power level of adepts (pure adepts are pretty gimped in 4a and cybered adepts are maybe too good). However I think that could be solved by reducing the cost of various adept powers. Another solution would be to allow the adept to swap out adept powers like a skillwired person can change out active skills. That way if the adept centers himself for 15 minutes he can become a ninja type character and if he centers again he could be a gun bunny or a face or whatever. You'd want to limit the number of adept power known but he could choose freely among that pool to a certain value.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 09:04 PM

Hmm, that sounds like a cool solution. Let the adept take maybe 2x as many powers as normal, but can only have half the total PP worth active at any one time and be able to switch your powers with some extended thing. Maybe an extended willpower test with 1 minute intervals. That makes it possible to change stuff out in the middle of a run if you have prep time, but doesn't let you go from stealth build to combat build if the dreck hits the air circulator without warning.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 6 2011, 09:05 PM

This tends to be my feeling. They are some things that steel should just do better then flesh even vat grown flesh. One of the other changes I was looking at making was making cyberlimbs better out of the box, up to and including starting one stat at racial max. Otherwise I just don't see a lot of folks taking cyberlimbs.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 6 2011, 09:11 PM

I hardly ever see a PC take anything other than Muscle Augmentation/Toner. It has better essence efficiency than replacement and many characters want to augment either strength or agility at different rates. Finally because it comes out of the bioware pool (even though it does impact essence) you can further reduce the actual essence cost because you bioware pool will likely be smaller than your cyberware pool.

Other than cheapo vatjob thugs as extras muscle replacement just doesn't really enter into common usage anymore.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 09:20 PM

The question is, just how cheap would you need to make it for people to seriously consider getting it? I think you could make it free and people still wouldn't bother with it (grades aside). Now, if you halved the essence to 0.5 and kept the cost the same it would look tempting to some people, but I still think you'd see people leaning towards bioware because not too many are going to be as worried about str as agi, and so will still want the toner.

Still, at least it makes it into a serious consideration instead purely an NPC thing.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 6 2011, 09:20 PM

The problem with cyberlimbs isn't the stats of one limb but the fact that realistically you should nearly always have to use the average across all limbs. Moreover you should also include the head and the torso, whose cyber equivalents neither are intended to have augmented attributes nor come with the capacity to carry them.
So besides spending lots of ¥ and essence on the limbs you also need more Karma and ¥ to raise the attributes of the rest of your body to the value of your cyberlimbs.

To be remotely viable the character either just has only tow options either take a partial limb with goodies or go full "borg". The middle ground is very inefficient.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 6 2011, 09:29 PM

I don't like crippling mages with losing double the Essence of an implant. I mean if you have that big of a bat to the head then WHY would any mage get 'ware? My method makes it so that a mage can get ware, but it limits his future growth... you know the old "You can have power now, but you will be weaker in the future" trope.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 6 2011, 10:00 PM

One option that has occured to me is just giving non magical folks bonus essence which would make some of those high essence options more attractive especially at character creation. Say we raised essence to 8 for example but made adept, mage and resonant all have a essence rating hit.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 6 2011, 10:05 PM

More essence would help, but you're still balancing cyber with magic which isn't the point here, it is balancing cyber with devices.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 6 2011, 11:47 PM

That has never worked. Seriously, in D&D it might, but not SR, where POWER, NOW is pretty much it, because it usually means more power, later. Look at it this way: The character will play for the first 100 karma as an ubermensch, and then some other ubermensch might overtake him, but... firstly, if that's an NPC, then you are either de-protagonising, or likely provoking a TPK, or if it's another PC, then that's only fair, but that player was still overshadowed for a LONG time.

So any fix that sacrifices on the long has to really really think about the middle-run, too, because that's the only motivation. I don't even know whether my character will live to 100 karma, why worry? I'll be having good fun with my POWER, NOW character, and in the end, there's ALWAYS someone better, that's simply probabilities at work.

On Topic:

Seriously a perfect option to make cyber more attractive is give even less starting cash. I guess that's what the designers wanted, really, but they didn't go far enough. If you only have 150K to spend, then you simply won't have the money for too much bio, and suddenly that cheap cyber is looking good again.

It's actually pretty amazing what you can do with just 60-70k nuyen (without lifestyles and vehicles). Sure you won't have any essence left worth mentioning, but...

Well, I'm not really advocating this route. But short of writing up simply different, new cyber that does interesting things that bioware can't do, you're not going to change any of the basic premises.

Posted by: Chance359 Jun 7 2011, 05:16 AM

What about splitting muscle replacement up?

Muscle Replacement (Str mod
4000 and .5 essence per point
Muscle Enhancement (agil mod
6000 and .5 essence per point

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 05:23 AM

Honestly, I love Muscle Replacement. I get it on almost any character I make. You can always take it out later and swap in higher-grade stuff, after all. I assume a bioware-style cyber mod would be just like the bioware in play: everyone gets just the Toner, saves Essence and money, and is therefore more powerful. I guess that's mission accomplished, but it doesn't really feel like it's making cyber 'better'.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 05:50 AM

Indeed, why would I get the cyber here for 6k and .5 essence when the bio is 8k and .2 essence? Now if you made it... 2k and .4 essence or somewhere in there, you might have something.

The real problem is that bio is suppose to be significantly more expensive, but significantly more essence friendly, almost like adding another 4 grades to cyber. You go: Basic Cyber, Alpha Cyber, Beta Cyber, Delta Cyber, Basic Bio, Alpha Bio, Beta Bio, Delta Bio. There is usually actually a bit of overlap in there in that delta cyber tends to be above bio, and even beta is usually right around there. Now, on to the actual problem: Muscle toner and Muscle enhancement are already really cheap, like almost as cheap as the alpha cyber, but better in essence than the delta cyber. This is a huge gap from what we see in things like synaptic boosters vs wired reflexes. In that case you can nearly get delta cyber for the cost of basic bio (Which ultimately makes delta wired reflexes useless, but that's a very minor problem). Same goes for the skin and bone mods, both of which feature somewhere between a beta and delta cost difference.

So yeah, if you only want agi, then the cost is less than the alpha difference, and if you want both, it is barely above alpha difference, but still more effective than delta.

Yeram does have a point about you can always replace them, but if you're planning on replacing them, why blow the 5k nuyen? And then the problem crops up of 'if your going to blow the 5k anyway, why not make it 8k?'.

The other solution to fixing the problem is to make toner/enhancement more expensive, instead of cyber cheaper.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 7 2011, 10:00 AM

Ok, I'm going to try to tack on some quick homebrew to make Cyber actually more INTERESTING:

Get rid of realism where Cyber-weapons are concerned, and most certainly don't make them worse than detached guns. Give them a fat bonus to concealment. Make it cool to suddenly break a sub-gun out of a cyberlimb and blaze away.

Let Cyber, but NOT bio, surpass the racial augmented limit. Yes, that actually makes sense, because you are changing so much of the body that it shouldn't really matter what the biological limitations are - the huge essence cost says so. Or at least make cyber suites that do, for instance, a combination of Titanium Bone Lacing and Muscle Replacement 4.

Make the MBW a real viable option compared to wired reflexes or the adept power. Let it surpass racial limits, too. Basically reduce availability for MBW3 to within reach of Restricted Gear. Give it Rating 6 skillwires just like the Stirrup.

Make some interesting options for cyberlimbs - implanted toolkits, etc. These might partly exist already. Arguably cyberlimbs aren't the issue, here, because they are reasonably attractive in 4th edition.

Make moddable Borg kits that are available at chargen, let's say for around 100K nuyen, as a viable alternative to a meat body, with stats that can compete.

Make cyber cool in the world: Essentially, put the Punk back in cyberpunk. Make it the rage to have crome sticking out of your body, rather than the icky-factor it has right now.

Make cyber armour better. Seriously, make (potentially hardened) armour available in ranges that can compete with gear - at least 10 points should be possible without sacrificing too much else. Of course, it has to be exclusive, then, and not stack with worn armour, i.e. it has to be included in encumbrance calculations.

For instance:

Exo-skin
This suit of obvious interlocking plates of armour covers the entire body. It has capacity like an armour suit with a helmet, and encumbers as one. It provides one point of ballistic and impact armour per rating, and has a minimum rating of 4, and a maximum rating of 2x the user's body attribute. Exo-skin grants 2 bonus dice for social skill tests, because it looks totally cool. It also has cyberlimb capacity of 1 per rating, and can accept most mods with the exceptions of attribute enhancements and cyberlimb armour.
Exo-skin can be upgraded.

Essence cost: 0.1 per rating
Nuyen cost: 3000 per rating
Avail: 2+1/rating R

Militiary Exo-skin
This suit of high-grade implanded armour works like Exo Skin, but is additionally hardened to withstand even the most devastating impacts. It provides hardened armour of 1 point per rating, with a minimum rating of 6, and a maximum rating of 3x the user's body attribute. It has cyberlimb capacity equal to 2x its rating, and can accept most mods with the exception of attribute enhancements and cyberlimb armour.

Essence cost: 0.1 per rating
Nuyen: 5000/rating
Avail: 10+1/rating R

---
These would enable you to make Robocop, at least, and should be versatile enough to be actually interesting. Both are available at chargen up to to 10 points for normal (without restricted gear), or 10 points of milspec (with restricted gear).

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 7 2011, 12:56 PM

I really don't think you need to raise Essence costs on implants for the Awakened; I think it's good that even for them, it seems more efficient to give up some "purity".

"Awakened would just get implants like the rest, and be better!" you say? I don't think so - I doubt any serious Awakened character would sacrifice that third point of Essence, because Magic 3 just doesn't cut it.

So you just need to have enough desirable implants that you can easily fill up 5 points of Essence with "I WANT IT" stuff at CharGen. That way, the mages go all hand-wringing because they can't take everything they want, and other people come a lot closer to that.

I do agree that the continuum from cyberlimbs to cyborgs needs to be developed more. It was cool in Ghost in the Shell; it would be feasible in SR.
=> the CCU needs to be redefined a bit: it's a brain in a jar, but the "directly to 0.1 Essence" is troubling, because that prevents you from taking stuff like Cerebral Boosters or a Math SPU, which make sense for a brain in a jar.
=> Do you put your brain in a cyberbody, or do you rig your cyberbody remotely? It's a big choice, because keeping your brain in a vault somewhere is safer, but you become vulnerable to people screwing with your connection. Inside the body is better if you need radio silence, but you're also "in the field".

I like the idea of a "cyberlimb shell" that still uses the normal rules for people with bodies, rather than being piloted like a rigger rigging a drone.

---

Another idea for Cyberware:

Null Bones (Rating 1-4)
Availability: (Rating * 6)R, Cost: Rating * 20.000 Essence: Rating * 0.5
Null Bones are a recent manatech discovery by S-K. Oricalchum rods are treated in a secret procedure to really muddle the mana flow of any body they're implanted in. They grant their host an (involuntary) Object Resistance equal to their Rating. (The host still gets normal resistance to magic.) These things are absolute horror to spellcasters however, because they subtract their Rating from their host's effective Magic rating.

Other ideas: an implant that converts CO2 back into oxygen, allowing indefinite holding of breath. Or perhaps altogether removing the lungs, which actually increases capacity to put in other implants because it rees up a lot of space.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 01:28 PM

Full cyber bodies aren't really Shadowrunny. Shadowrun has always sided on the man side of the man-machine line, with things going too far becoming twisted abominations. They are very Ghost in the Shell, but I don't think those two need to get any closer than they already are.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 01:36 PM

I agree. I'm tired of hearing how it's a problem that people can't replace their whole body.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 02:18 PM

Well, you can. It is just very costly, hard to rationalize why you are now on the street without a support network, and not very Shadowrun.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 03:17 PM

It is when that Corporate Sammi you cut down a dozen games ago comes back as one.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 03:22 PM

Sure, Sure... I can see that... Heh

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 7 2011, 03:22 PM

There's a reason GiTS isn't a story about freelancers. Still... I think full borgs should be more possible. Maybe don't think GiTS, think Gunnmu (Battle Angel Alita). More punk.

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 03:25 PM

Second hand cyberware opens up a world of cyberware for very very cheap. Sure it makes it even more essence intensive. But it's well worth it.

If you want Bioware to be less common, double or triple all the prices for bioware. If you really want to be mean, get rid of the 1/2 essence for which ever is lower thing.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 03:32 PM

Yeah, but you also have second hand bio, which is more attractive than second hand cyber because it gives you a smaller essence penalty and a larger nuyen reduction.

I don't think you'd need to increase the price of all bioware. Some things seem quite nicely balanced like synaptic boosters and orthoskin. It is just a few specific examples such as muscle toner that cause problems, though that could really have more to do with agi being the most useful stat and str being the least than problems with the options themselves.

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 03:37 PM

My problem with Muscle TOner is that if you're an ADEPT,you're an idiot if you don't take them, vs taking agility boosting adept powers.

Muscle Toners should probably cost much more, like maybe as much as 5x more.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 03:45 PM

Shadowrun isn't anime. It follows more Western sci-fi and fantasy literature conventions. Making it more like GitS, etc, is contrary to its theme.

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 03:46 PM

Cyborgs and Cyberzombies should be what you /fight/ when you accidentally break into the wrong zero-zone lab.

Not who you are.

Posted by: squee_nabob Jun 7 2011, 03:51 PM

Cyberlimbs are actually quite good for some concepts. In fact most street samurai builds I see rely on a “cyberarm of awesome” where you use restricted gear to get availability 20 Obvious Full Cyberarm. Max the arm’s body and agility with customization and enhancements, and then use an SMG. SMGs are one handed, so you use the cyberarm’s agility (I expect this to be 9), and wearing armor is a “full body” activity, so you average the cyberarm’s body (I expect this also to be 9) with your own to wear more armor. Add in a comlink, shock hands, etc to taste. Also the cyber limb gyromount is very good, as it is +3 RC that stacks with stocks, gas-vents, & personalized grip (amongst other things). This allows you to get to the magic 11RC quite easily.



The problem is not enough good cyber ware. Most cyberware is +number to a one or two rolls. You need broad, role-oriented cyberware. Think Tailored Pheremones. When did you see a face without Tailored Pheremones (or Kinesics, or both)? You want more stuff like that, less stuff like Math SPU, or Grapple Gun.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 7 2011, 03:51 PM

It may not be anime, itself, but it does borrow a lot from Japanese culture, especially where Japanese economics is assumed to have taken the overhead (with the global nuyen, and three of the megacorps being japanese (Renraku, Shiawase, and MCT)

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 03:59 PM

Japanese culture of the 80s and early 90s. Back when anime was called "Japanimation" and only available by mail order on late-night TV.

GitS (etc) were based on stuff like Blade Runner and Neuromancer. We don't need to do some Babelfish English to Japanese to English retranslation.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 7 2011, 04:04 PM

Of course it's not, but actually many of the tech aspects ARE very anime-like, while the magic stuff is western fantasy. And we're talking about the tech, here.

Also, theme is very much a consequence of play-style, and I would say that SR doesn't actually have a common theme outside of "Freelancers do dirty work". Everything else is rather up to interpretation, and ranges from extreme stealth+mirror-shades to good old 80s pink mohawk, where full borgs easily have a place.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 7 2011, 04:07 PM

Robocop and Terminator are western Trademarks of Cyberpunk.
Well, ED-209 may have been a step too far but otherwise my point still stands . .

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 04:11 PM

Robocop is a solo character.
Terminator is also a solo character.

Solo characters tend to break the molds, because you can be arbitrarily more powerful, because who cares if you're balanced with the other pcs.

Look at Robocop, and tell me who the other 3 people in his gaming group are playing.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 04:17 PM

The tech aspects are anime-like now, but that's probably due to the rise of anime slightly predating the SR4 design period. I think it throws the theme off, since body-replacement tech pre-anime plunged into the inhuman, whereas now tech tends to be spiffy and clean. Fancy cultured bioware, etc. It's far removed from its origins.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 7 2011, 04:22 PM

Merlin
"Random-Elf"
Kevin Flynn

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 04:35 PM

Did you see a Different Robocop movie than I did?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 04:45 PM

Murphy...
And the Female Cop... Been so long, I can't remember her Name off hand...

There were only two PC's in that Movie...

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 04:46 PM

And the Female Cop is the PC of the GM's wife, whose character sucks, but she gets to succeed because she's dating the GM.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 7 2011, 05:04 PM

Gyromount is nice if you absolutely need that RC, but in general having a full body agility of 9(or 10 for elfs) is just better then having one arm with agility 9 and can be gotten with use of resricted gear instead of the arm.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 7 2011, 05:28 PM

So? It's an evolution, towards more anime aspects, which is just what happens. You also don't find the 80s Japanophobia anymore. The game evolves, and in a game with biodrones you might as well also have full borgs.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 7 2011, 05:34 PM

I think that after metavariants, infected, free spirits, AIs, available bioware, and the transition from mainframe-and-cables to smartphone-and-middle class consumerism, saying that cyborgs aren't "cyberpunk-pure" enough is a bit weak.

None of those things were available to PCs in ye olde times, but that's all changed now. I think that to a large degree, GitS has gone on to develop cyberpunk where Neuromancer left off - it's not a carved in stone genre.

The whole "implants make you inhuman" theme has been watered down; technology looks friendlier now (thank, Apple), and there are just so many kinds of PC that are far more inhuman than a cyborg (pixies, dryads, AIs, free spirits, fomori vampires..) that saying that full cyborgization is something for Bad Guys Only because it's an Inhuman Aberration sounds like a very thin argument.

Uploading your consciousness to a computer seems like a bridge too far (although AIs are more or less already there..), but I think that having an actual brain in a jar somewhere gives you a real tether to the physical world, just like a rigger or hacker.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 05:45 PM

I'm just agreeing that I don't see 'it's hard to make the Major!' as an important complaint, that's all.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 05:49 PM

I can complain about those, too, to the same end. "None of this other crap is cyberpunk either," while true, has little to do with 'ware. My point here is that "fixing" cyberware by making the game even less Shadowrun is probably not the way to go. There are already several transhuman games on the market. They're not Shadowrun, but honestly neither is this.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 7 2011, 05:51 PM

I was thinking, that if you want to make cyberware desirable, that's one way to go. And I think that playing a cyborg is actually more reasonable than playing an AI.

I rather like the idea of just having the bonus range on cyberware be somewhat better than that on gear, like the cybereyes giving a bigger bonus to Perception than the goggles.

It's nice when you can consider a trade-off; "do I want to spend Essence for more power?"

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 7 2011, 05:53 PM

In that case I'd go for the nostalgic route: ban all races not in the core book. Being an Elf or a Troll should be special enough for anyone.

Posted by: squee_nabob Jun 7 2011, 06:06 PM

Besides shooting people, what else do you use agility for? Heavy Weapons, Longarms, Gunnery and Assault rifles generally take 2 hands, so that’s a reason for full body agility. Combat Axes, Escape Artist, Gymnastics, Infiltration all use full body agility. Palming you can probably pass off as a 1 handed activity (with your cyber palm). Forgery and Locksmith also use agility but are very rarely used IMHO.

The question is not “is full body agility better than one armed agility”, because no one will argue that one arm agility is better. I will cede that point. My point is that 1 armed agility is much cheaper, and nearly as useful. A pimped out cyber arm runs around 40,000 and 1 essence but gives you 9 one handed agility and 5 full body agility (assuming 1 agility). This saves many many BP (to start, having a 5 agility base is 40BP). The idea is to save money and BP to spend in other places. That is why the “arm of awesome” build is good.

Edit: How else do you get 11 RC without gyromount, gyroharness, tripod, or bipod? And remember that SnS spamming is 90% of all combat, so more SnS rounds downrange = more dakka = better. Thus getting more RC is important.

Preemptive Edit: Yes a few guns can hit 11 RC without the above items, due to inherent RC, but not many.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 7 2011, 06:08 PM

The reason you go with the arm is that it's cheap as hell BP wise. Muscle Toner 4 with Agility 5 gets you 9 agility overall for ~46 BP (buy agility to 5 and 30000Y for the toner). Cyberarm of Awesome gets you 9 agility for shooting fools and 5 agility for everything else for ~5 BP (~25000Y for customized cyberlimb). You could almost become magical character for the BPs that saves you (Magic 1 to Magic 5, dropped down to 4). Being a troll, ork, or elf can change these values (especially if you factor in body buying), but the values shouldn't be too different.

I must admit I don't know how many "true" street samurai use this. But nearly anyone who isn't a focused magic character or technomancer gains a lot for a small BP cost. Slap an arm onto a PC and he becomes a decent shooter (dice pool 14+) with a modest autoamtics (SMG) of 1 (3) for a 5 BP quality (which can you drop if you're willing to live with a slightly subpar arm) and 11 BP. Then you can take drugs, get a mage to cast increase initiative on you, or use Wired Reflexes 2 and you're decent combat character.

In addition, you'll have a 9 body cyberarm that odds are will increase your average body score so you have more encumbrance for armor. There's also mods like armor, gyromount, and whatever else you feel like. If you're going some variety of two-handed weapon (i.e. something that isn't just for SnS spamming) or need every single infiltration die you can get, you might want to pay out the 40BP for those 4 extra dice you'll get with a "natural" agility. Otherwise, cyberarms are tempting.

Overall, I like what SR4A did with cyberarms. It made them arguable for wide variety of characters. In earlier additions they were expensive jokes except for NPCs with unlimited budgets and the odd decker who wanted to hide his 1 million cyberdeck someplace safe other than his brain. Cyberdiabeetus (replacing your hands and feet with armored cyberhands and feet for +8 armor for virtually nothing to a mundane) is a weird side effect of all this. Though it also gives mundanes a niche, non-magical DV sponge. It's not great niche and some mages can still win there (possession by a high force spirit) but it's at least not trivial.

Edit- Got some armor values wrong

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 06:12 PM

Again, that has nothing to do with 'ware. I'll say it again:

Fixing cyberware by making the game less like Shadowrun and even more like anime is not really fixing anything.

If you want to talk more on the last bit rather than the first bit, we probably need to start a new thread and bribe the mods.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 7 2011, 07:27 PM

I've been thinking about how to make cyber much more attractive, but mostly have been drawing a blank. Everything else that I have thought about has been thrown around.

One thing that hasn't been thrown into the mix, that I know of, is using the idea of cyber suites, but rather than having the Essence cost multiplied by .9, have it multiplied by .8 and have it that ANY logical group of cyberware can be put into the mix rather than specific items that make no sense at all... or are totally worthless*. Also the cost would the cost of the items. You still have to buy them separately, but because they're being installed at the same time you can reduce the number of connections leading to the brain, and therefore reduce the Essence cost.

Now for this to be done logically, the cyber that is included in the package deal must be at least 3 different systems and they need to have some related function to one another. For example, the "Cyber Security Special" would have a Commlink, a Math SPU, a datajack, and a Simsense Booster. The synergy in this example should be self evident.


* == Urban Kshatriya would be a good example. Street Sams are lining up to get this piece of shit? I DO NOT think so!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 08:43 PM

That's a good point, KCKitsune. It *never* made sense for suites to cost less, but more flexibility in selection combined with a useful level of Essence cost reduction might work well. That solution would require quite a bit of GM oversight, but doesn't everything?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Jun 7 2011, 09:13 PM

You would have to define what Shadowrun is like, then, first. And why "anime" is not like shadowrun, when some anime is the most shadowrun you can get in a fiction package that doesn't have the SR logo on it.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jun 7 2011, 09:16 PM

I think the main problems with Ware are actually individualized, rather than systemic. Namely: 95% of ware is crap. You do, of course, need to underuse or ignore cyberware scanners as most GMs do so that you can actually play Shadowrun. The most common issues ware has are:

1) Why would I pay some of my soul to have this implanted? Good example: cyberears less than rating 4. Just wear earbuds! Yeah, you can come up with convoluted excuses to take away someone's earbuds and make them pay a trivial amount of nuyen for new ones, or go through an entire scene without audio enhancement on occasion, but really? It's never going to be worth it.

The fix here is simple - make sure implanted XYZ is always better than just carrying an XYZ. This means it either needs to be more good, or be as good while being something that actually noticeably benefits from being hidden. Also, a lot of it falls under (2) or (3) as well - you want to remember that "having an X in your skull" is generally extremely niche compared to carrying an X around.

2) Incredibly niche gear. The problem is that carrying niche gear costs you a little nuyen. Implanting niche gear costs you a generally over-large amount of a very finite resource - essence. A good example is the Sleep Regulator. Yes, it might occasionally be useful - but not nearly often enough to justify .15 essence, especially when Long Haul exists.

The solution here is also simple: niche gear either needs to suck less or be GREATLY reduced in essence, so people can use it to take up the last .05 essence they have with goofy party trick ware.

3) Gear that just sucks. It's not that what it does is useless, it's that it does way to little or costs way too much. A good example is the cyberskull. It's not useless - you can do stuff like put armor or cool toys or whatever in it. It's that it costs a lot of essence and money and does comparatively little. Another example is Muscle Replacement, which costs a whopping Rating essence. Again, it's not useless - just overpriced.

The solution is simple - make such things either more good or less expensive.

The main problem here is that the only way to actually accomplish this is going to be to go through ware line by line and fix each and every piece of crappy gear, which could take a while and be difficult.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 7 2011, 09:27 PM

UmaroVI,

1) I don't think that cyberears are bad at all. Even rating 1 is good because you get audiolink, audio recording, and 4 capacity... and so far the only audio dampeners that I have seen are either cyber or the adept power. I have NOT seen a dampener listed as a gear item

2) Sleep regulator is not addictive, so is much better than Long Haul

3) Cyberskull... yeah I agree with you on this one. The capacity of the cyberskull should be made higher

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 7 2011, 09:29 PM

Honestly i think one of the better fixes for the cybereyes and ears problem is to just do away with the ratings in cybereyes and ears and give them either unlimited or very high capacity. I agree with your assessment, if your paying essence for something it should be curb stomping better then it's non essence equivalent.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 09:35 PM

Just to amend that statement a little: if you're *choosing* rationally to spend Essence, it should be something worth that. There's no reason that implants should, as a general rule, be better than non-implants… technologically-speaking. If an implant *is* better, it has to be due to some kind of 'faster/more direct connection to the body/brain', not simply by virtue of costing Essence.

This is what you said, I'm just pointing out that we don't want general power creep from people with radar sensors in their arms. It's the same exact sensor.

Cybereye capacity at the high end basically is unlimited already. The only things you'd want that won't fit are the eye laser systems, AFAIK.

Posted by: suoq Jun 7 2011, 09:57 PM

The implants have to meet demanding standards. The gear doesn't. To me it's quality control, research, testing, etc to a very high standard vs what you can buy from a sidewalk dealer in NYC.

That being said, I find it hard to justify holding home rules to a higher standard than the book rules.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 7 2011, 10:11 PM

I'm not really sure what your definition of Shadowrun is then..

I think SR has changed a lot, because technology has developed in ways they didn't anticipate. Instead of huge mainframes and wired networks with hidden access points in the Barrens, we have ubiquitous smartphones for everyone. Cybernetic implants have been put on a slow burner somewhere while genetech has become really hot.

My point is, I don't really believe that handling cyberware in an "orthodox" manner is more authentic or better. It's just staying confined in the expectations of the '80s of where tech might go.

I get the feeling cyberware has stagnated in SR, while bioware, geneware, nanoware, magic and gear have all been going forwards. If you want cyberware to look exciting, it should be pushing the envelope, not simmering on a back burner. Cyberware was developed before bioware and all that, because it was somehow easier. So now cyberware should again be the first way all manner of new augmentations enter society, only to be emulated by bioware later on.

I feel like the transition from enhancing the body to being able to connect a brain to an entire artificial body, to uploading the brain to a computer entirely, should be making progress. I think transhumanism does belong in SR; it's one of Evo's big working areas for example.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 10:17 PM

One problem is just that cyberware used to be the thing fundamentally enabling decking and rigging, but it lost that. Somehow, the Booster and the +2 Rig don't maintain that feel. Skillwires are an area that cyber still enjoys major coverage over bioware and magic, for example.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 7 2011, 10:22 PM

And yet, you ARE Buying Implants from the Street Dealer, Just like Equipment. What else do you call going to the Mall for a Datajack and a pair of Eyes?

Posted by: sabs Jun 7 2011, 11:02 PM

if the rig, and the booster effected all rolls while rigged in, instead of just driving tests, they might be more 'must have coolness'
Another thing that bothers me is that, RIggers need every single skill in the game. WHen jumped in, if you're in a fly drone, trying to sneak by someone, you use the same skill as the infiltration expert.

Posted by: suoq Jun 7 2011, 11:03 PM

I don't know what you do, but when Stuffer Shack has a sale on surgery, I assume the price of Soylent Green is going to have a temporary drop soon.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 7 2011, 11:35 PM

The nice thing about Gyromounts is that they negate Movement modifiers to shooting too.
If you negate your bursting RC and your -2 for Running, then its basically a free +2 to your ranged defense rolls.

THATS the hidden benefit of gyromounts.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 7 2011, 11:57 PM

Shadowrun once had ubiquitous smartphones, too.

However they took a turn straight into GitS-land, copying that form of AR and wireless brain-hacking, instead of pacing themselves and introducing smartphones as matrix tools with slightly better access to a more traditional VR matrix backbone, rather than a badly designed conglomerate of All The Computers Ever.

They leaped ahead from our world rather than their world, and it shows. With that leap, they changed the general theme from desperate stagnation and decay to one of frantic change and constant upgrade. Shadowrunners talking about full body replacement? What the hell happened?

Posted by: UmaroVI Jun 8 2011, 12:59 AM

Actually, for some reason I thought cyberears couldn't have enhancements higher than their rating; I was mistaken. They do in fact suck, but for different reasons. A better example would be implanted grapple gun. Now, sure, there might be the occasional time where having a built in grapple gun is useful. But .5 essence for a "once in a blue moon" trick is ridiculous; just carry a grapple gun!

For 2: needing to stay up for obscenely long periods of time (remember, you don't even have to make any rolls or take any penalties until you hit 30 full hours without sleep) is rare. Long Haul is certainly not as good as Sleep Regulator - but is it really worth .15 essence for a somewhat better version of something that's only rarely useful?

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 8 2011, 01:29 AM

I don't know, but I think that it's useful. I mean if you're going to have Long Haul in the game, then why not have Sleep Regulator.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 01:35 AM

Personally a large percentage of my characters have sleep regulator for flavor reasons as well as their occasional usefulness.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jun 8 2011, 01:37 AM

I put a sleep regulator on my Combat medic mage for exactly those reasons.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jun 8 2011, 01:37 AM

^^^^^^
Yes, I'm sure some people would take cyberware that gave you +1 to Con rolls against domestic cats in June for 2 essence if it fit their character; that doesn't make it not overpriced.

In the game? Sure, just price it appropriately.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 01:41 AM

.15 is a fairly insignificant amount of essence, and I think you'll find there are a large number of people who get sleep regulator fairly often. Long haul has serious down sides and isn't something that can really be a regular part of what the character does.

And it seem fairly... trollish to compare .15 essence and a fairly useful ability to 2 essence and an obviously useless ability.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jun 8 2011, 02:05 AM

My point is that people would take it, then post smugly about their moral superiority, not that Sleep Regulator is actually that bad.

.15 essence is a lot for an extremely niche ability. You could be getting something, like, say, +1 to one of your most often used skills all the time for 2/3 that.

How often have all those Sleep Regulators actually come up, in game, in an "I would be taking Sleep Deprivation penalties RIGHT NOW if I didn't have sleep regulator" way, Ghost (playing by the actual sleep deprivation rules in Shadowrun, in which you are fine and dandy for 29 hours and 59 minutes then start taking effects)?

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 02:16 AM

*shrug* It's never come up directly as sleep deprivation, but definitely comes up very often as having extra time to prepare for runs and makes extended tests faster, or allows for extended tests to be taken on days in which I'd otherwise have been too busy thanks to the extra hours of saved sleep.

Admittedly all those could have likely been done by being a rules lawyer about the sleep rules, but I'd rather not pull that kind of crap.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 8 2011, 02:18 AM

Well, you can get in and out surgery at the Mall... THE MALL... Don't know about you, but I have yet to see a Mall that is sterile and antiseptic.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 02:21 AM

Maybe not the mall as a whole, but I've certainly seen individual shops in some malls that could likely meet near hospital standards.

Posted by: Faraday Jun 8 2011, 02:21 AM

I find sleep regulators VERY useful for anyone who needs to make lots of extended tests. Basically, this means anyone regularly using technical skills. Negotiating the black market and doing stake-outs also involved extended periods of wakefullness.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 02:26 AM

Stake-Outs are a major reason to have them. Also, they allow you to control your sleep patterns COMPLETELY! As any soldier will tell you, the ability to pass out and wake up instantly is a really handy skill to have.

I also use them in my stories quite often for some characters who are exceptionally well read despite their relatively "stupid" manner of speaking. Lots of time to read with full mental energy is handy for a lot of things.

However, if you lack them and need to do long-term work short-term, there's always Long Haul. My Magicians carry a few doses with them just in case. It was also a major plot point in one of my stories.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 8 2011, 02:29 AM

Sleep Regulator used to be crucial back in SR3 for anyone who used build/repair/coding in their down time. It's still very useful for the same reason but the current rules don't support it very well.

Posted by: Irion Jun 8 2011, 02:33 AM

You get yourself a 48 hours day. Thats extreamly usefull.
Of course if you just drive to A and shoot things up next run it does not help.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 8 2011, 02:35 AM

Sleep regulator was a bad choice for comparison. The fact is, many character types can gain benefits from not having to sleep as often, and the threat of addiction makes the anti-sleep drugs kind of leery, rules-wise.

Pink-mohawk style games are less likely to benefit from sleep regulator, sure, but they can still be useful.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 8 2011, 02:52 AM

I've always started them at the characters natural attribute score instead of 3's across the board.

Posted by: Faraday Jun 8 2011, 02:57 AM

This. However, I add a percentile cost difference based on metatype. Humans and elves pay the normal going rate. Dwarves and orks pay 25% more, while trolls pay a 50% premium. This is only the case for standard cyberware, though. Alpha/beta/deltaware is always customized to an extent, so the racial cost modifier is already covered.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 8 2011, 02:58 AM

Alright, to cull the drift a bit, let's try this.

Go through the basic SR4 book and flag the cyberware that you think needs to be worked on.

Then post the list here, and why you think item X needs to be improved. It can be as simple as 'Goggles do it for 10% of the Nuyen and no essence', but, there should be a reason for everything you flag.

That'll help us figure out what the 'bad' ware is and, from there, solutions can be crafted.

(I have a mental list, but I'm curious what other people will trot out.)

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 8 2011, 03:08 AM

Can't say for Robocop, but if I'm remembering T2 right there were 3 PC's. The Terminator, John Connor, and Sarah Connor.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 03:08 AM

Goggles can be taken away, easily. If they're taking away your eyes, then you're in bigger trouble than you probably should be in.

Then again, you might be a really bad agent for the CIA in Mexico Aztlan.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 8 2011, 03:18 AM

Hmm, lets see...
Datajack - Trodes are cheaper and no essence
Sim Module - non-implanted sim module does the same thing more cheaply and for no essence cost
Cybereyes - Goggles do the same for a fraction of the cost and no essence
Cyberears - With one or two excpetions earbuds replace for no essence and minimal cost
Muscle Replacement - way too high essence cost and not nearly enough nuyen saving compared to muscle toner/enhancement.
Sim Rig -
Grapple Gun -

I think those are the main ones. Didn't include implanted commlink because the basic reason to get it is to prevent it being lost/stolen/taken, which it does do quite well.