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Posted by: ggodo Jun 7 2011, 05:30 AM

Drone sizes are given a range of measurements for each size level, I know this, but there are a few drones that I haven't found a picture for, and I would like to know what The Consensus has to say on the subject. Specifically, how big do you treat the Steel Lynx and the Seampunk Dragons? The size ranges given are way to wide for me to pin them down. Partly it's curiousity, and partly it's to keep Longbow from buying dozens of dragons for the free flamethrowers. In fact, while we're at it, why did they give us an unstatted flamethrower?

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 7 2011, 05:37 AM

SR4a, page 96 has a pic of an elf working on a Steel Lynx.

Posted by: hermit Jun 7 2011, 07:32 AM

The Steel Lynx entry's art in Fields of Fire has a human figure for scale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7cpnW2TIho&feature=related is a more modern iteration of a very similar drone that just can be used instead, though it's slightly smaller than the Lynx in FoF.

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 7 2011, 07:48 AM

Dang they look sweet. Could call them a 'Similar Model' to the medium sized http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShadows/vehicles/gm-doberman.jpg (you know, the one that rolled around instead of having legs).

Posted by: hermit Jun 7 2011, 07:57 AM

Yeah. That's very close to my own imagination fo the good old Doberman. But it works for the Lynx too. At least they're not redesigned to look like moderately threatening and very shy felines ...

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 7 2011, 08:03 AM

Since there's established artwork for the Steel Lynx, even in SR4, I'd stick to that one being named as that. The two that show in the youtube vid you linked could be called something different but still use the same stats as the Steel Lynx (like an Ares Iron Panther or Aztechnology Chupacabra or something).

Posted by: hermit Jun 7 2011, 10:32 AM

Official (as of SR3, source: R3R) variants of the Winter Systems Steel Lynx Combat Drone are the Armaments Éireann-Tír Gaiscíoch and ATT Drache (ATT being a Brit subsidiary of Saeder-Krupp). Also, Winter Systems is a New York Ares subsidiary, so an Ares variant would be rather redundant. Aztehnology has no canon ground combat drones save for a variant of the Ruhrmetall wolfsspinne, though, for some reason.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 7 2011, 10:44 AM

Large drones are described as "Motorcycle size".

When it comes to Lighter Than Air i would suggest making them car sized (big balloon and all that )

Posted by: Ed_209a Jun 7 2011, 12:42 PM

With LTA drones, I picture the gondola being the typical size for it's body, and the envelope being much larger.

For example, a Stormcloud being a lawnmower-sized body under a shipping container-sized transparent plastic envelope.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 01:39 PM

Is it motorcycle-sized? I thought Body 4 drones were 'small car sized' (like, not a Smart, but maybe a Mini Cooper).

Posted by: ggodo Jun 7 2011, 01:48 PM

I'd been running it as Smart Car sized, mostly to keep it out of buildings. Somewhere between Mini and smart works for me. Now here's the big question, how big are the Steampunk Dragons? and how many of them sould a Str 1 Bod 1man carry?

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 7 2011, 01:48 PM

Large Drones (BOD 4) range from Motorcycle to smaller car.

So a BOD 5 (similar models rule) could be a small car.

In the case of a LTA I would say Small Car+Huge balloon sized.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 7 2011, 01:55 PM

Ah. I guess a big motorcycle is already beyond Smart Car size anyway, though.

Posted by: hermit Jun 7 2011, 02:35 PM

They sell the Smart in America? That's a serious question, because I read that Mercedes pulled it because there was no interest.

Also, check http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs51/i/2009/326/d/2/Aztec_Blimp_by_flaketom.jpg for a blimp-sized drone. I'd say it's a small car, one magnitude larger than a Mini, like a Toyota Yaris or Renault Twingo, or Chevy (Pontiac?) Spark.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 7 2011, 02:53 PM

They have been sold in America and there are some around. I don't know if they are being actively made/shipped here for sale though. Most likely not, Americans like their giant super cars of doom. Also, most Americans likely couldn't fit in a smart car.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 7 2011, 02:56 PM

A fair number of Canadians probably not, either. Or, you know, the car would be like a second skin...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 7 2011, 04:28 PM

There's some Smart Cars in Canada, I can confirm that.

My first impression, and still current, is that I'm bigger than the damned things just walking. But, for their job, getting around a city, they're doing what they're supposed to.

Problem is... Canada lacks City. Just too much Not-City.

Posted by: Falanin Jun 7 2011, 07:50 PM

With the extra safety equipment that american laws demand, the Smart loses a lot of it's fuel efficiency and performance due to extra weight... which doesn't help its popularity at all.

Posted by: Fauxknight Jun 7 2011, 08:32 PM

Its true, they barely get the mileage to be worth buying. Usually you're better off with a regular compact or subcompact, same mileage-same price-bigger car, or just jumping on the fuel efficiency bandwagon all the way and shelling out for a prius. They definely sell Smarts here in the US, one of my neighbors has one.

Posted by: Bull Jun 7 2011, 10:36 PM

I love the Smart Cars. I want two, then I'd have a pair of roller skates! (But yes, they definitely sell them here)

Posted by: Tyro Jun 7 2011, 10:51 PM

Thanks for the smile

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 02:19 AM

Yeah, well, all I know is that even with that equipment, they probably weigh less than a Moose and would loose that kind of fight. A not inconsiderable thing for me to have in mind if I ever go back to Northern Ontario.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 8 2011, 01:02 PM

Or, anywhere in New Brunswick.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2011, 02:53 PM

Anyhow, a Steel Lynx is larger than a breadbox.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 8 2011, 03:04 PM

I like the fact that with similar models I can take a small drone (BOD 2) and change it to BOD 3 and add a weapon mount.

The question is if I can manage to squeeze in (or build the drone around it) a Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 8 2011, 07:04 PM

You can, if the GM decides to do that. It's probably a bad idea to ever allow that, so…

Posted by: ggodo Jun 9 2011, 12:24 AM

Technically, yes. I wouldn't allow it.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 04:28 AM

There are already enough small drones with weapon mounts. I don't really want to use up all my capacity by adding a weapon mount to a drone.

Anyway, any answers for ggodo's question on how many steampunk dragons may be carried on a STR 1 BOD 1 character, and why we were given a statless flamethrower?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 04:31 AM

Don't burn yourself out man. The drone you're looking for is the MCT Hachiman, which has an external reinforced remote turret. It's in "This Old Drone", page 5.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 04:34 AM

...How do you know that? I can't find any reference to that picture anywhere.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 9 2011, 04:37 AM

An assumption based on art from previous editions maybe?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 04:38 AM

At least motorcycle sized, and up to the size of a small car. Since the cutoff for medium drones is motorcycle size, I would say most large drones are larger than that. Ggodo's right to keep that thing out of doors though, and I like the fact that he used its size instead of bringing security down on us when I tried to bring it inside.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 04:44 AM

I'd shoot for that, except your impression of the balloon part. The gas portions of these airships are described as being very resistant to gunfire due to their multiple-compartment design and framework which prevents popping.

Posted by: SpellBinder Jun 9 2011, 05:42 AM

Honestly, yes, based on artwork from previous editions. On top of that http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShadows/vehicles/lynx.jpg I recall seeing from a 3rd edition book of a steel lynx.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 9 2011, 05:50 AM

With the power pack for size reference as well. Nice.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 9 2011, 07:14 AM

Speaking of drone sizes, I'm curious if anyone who writes for SR has ever read any of the other books. I'm a little ways through "Spy Games", and I've already hit a bump:

This does not fit the descriptions of micro, mini, and small drones that I'm familiar with from Arsenal. Try fitting a GMC chariot in your shoe (or even the smallest minidrone in the books)!

Posted by: hermit Jun 9 2011, 08:37 AM

Well, it seems there is truth to the claim of Frank Trollman's that the core rules expansions are not required reading for the current crop of authors ...

Posted by: ggodo Jun 9 2011, 02:04 PM

Which is sad because I hate it when he's right. It's like the guy with the "End is Nigh" sign and the end really being nigh.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 9 2011, 03:33 PM

Yeah, notice how those guys usually have the worst, "OH DREK" face in the crowd when they find out they're right.

Posted by: PittsburghRPGA Jun 9 2011, 03:47 PM

I can confirm an active dealership in Pittsburgh. http://www.smartcenterpittsburgh.com/ I drive past it on the way to a friend's apartment. But there are plenty of those wee little "cars" sold here. It's no longer a case of seeing one and being surprised like you would at seeing, for example, a 57 Chevy or a Stutz Bearcat or something.

I know I prefer giant super cars of doom, but then I'm a fluffy gamer who ain't going to fit well into one of those toy cars.

Cordially,

Eric
(who drives a Grand Am GT and a VStar Custom 650)

Posted by: Spanky_Harrison Jun 9 2011, 04:24 PM

To be fair, the drone size descriptions in Arsenal (at least for mini and micro drones) are a bit skitso anyway.

Well, if they are insect sized, I certainly hope that they are less than 10cm in length, cause that's just under 4 inches, and that's a big bug. Which raises the question of what do they mean by insect size? Is the average Microdrone the size of a House fly? Cause thats what I think of when I think "insect sized", and thats 8-12mm long. Or is the average Microdrone the size of a Cicada, which measure 2-5cm?

We know they have a concealability modifier of -6, which theoretically puts them around the size of an RFID tag, which is described as "Ranging in size from
microscopic to the size of a price tag". Slap patches are also in this category, but the book doesn't actually say how big they are. (I would imagine about 2 inches square)

Then Minidrones:


So these are the size of a "large insect or mouse". Well, the house mouse is about 10cm long (in the body) at its biggest, though the "Fancy Mouse" can range from 15-30cm, but that includes the tail and tiny top hat, so the actual body is about half that. Alternatively, they are described as fitting in the palm of ones hand, which fits with the whole "mouse" description. But the actual length is described as 10 to 25 cm, or 4 to 10 inches. 10 inches does not fit into the palm of ones hand. (insert penis joke here). For reference, a normal (size 7) basketball has a diameter of about 9.5 inches. While you can hold a basketball in your hand, I wouldn't really say that it "fits" in there, and you definitely cant put one in your pocket.

So lets look at the concealability. Minidrones are Concealability -2, which puts them in the same category as Light Pistols. The Beretta 92 (what I would consider a decent modern example of the class) ranges from 7.8 inches (for the compact version) to 8.5 inches. That fits pretty well in the 10-25 cm range.

Of course, the other issue is that both mini and micro drones can theoretically be 10cm "long" (whatever that actually means, what if its round?) Which would result in two objects of essentially the same size having a 4 die difference in their concealability. But whatever, those rules aren't perfect

Overall, it seems to me that in the case of mini and micro drones, the rules have no idea how large they actually are. And that's kind of irritating.

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 9 2011, 04:38 PM

A drone is never too large or too small, it is exactly the size it intended to be..... wait a second.

That said I do agree, I always thought the size descriptions in arsenal were just slightly off. I mean 25cm is nearly a foot long, which is fairly noticeable. Even micro drones aren't really all that small if 4cm is the lower limit. That's the size of a fairly large beetle. May be somewhat easy to overlook, but if it is just hanging out somewhere, it is going to stick out quite a bit, which seems to be the opposite of what many microdrones are intended for.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 9 2011, 04:42 PM

*shrug* It's the vagueness that bothers me. I'm fine with micro meaning '1-4cm' (maybe 0.5cm for a truly limited drone), as opposed to the yet-nonexistent nano-drones.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 9 2011, 04:59 PM

For those interested, the picture is from the second edition book Fields of Fire p. 68.

Posted by: Bull Jun 9 2011, 05:24 PM

This is a big failing of SR4's more abstract gear system, I agree.

With the piece of gear in SPy Games, I think it was less that the author wasn't familiar with core SR stuff... It's that he made a call. Drone Body sizes simply don't automatically equal a specific size. THey're really, really screwy and, as Spanky_Harrison notes, they're a bit Schizo. Some drones are intended to be that small, others with the exact same body rating, are obviously bigger. If I was in the same boat, I may have done the same thing, and simply assumed (hoped? Probably Hoped futilely) that most GMs and players would be smart enough to use an ounce of common sense with these things.

One of my fervent hopes is that when/if SR5 comes around, we can actually go back to being more specific about sizes of things (Length, width, height, seating, cargo capacity, and a size comparison chart would all be wonderful additions, and are badly needed IMO).

Bull

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 9 2011, 05:26 PM

Rigger 3!

Posted by: Bull Jun 9 2011, 05:32 PM

Even Rigger three didn't go far enough. There still weren't actual sizes for a lot of vehicles. But it did have seating and cargo, which was very important (And helped gauge size for vehicles, at least. Drones were always a "Take a guess" though. )

Posted by: Ghost_in_the_System Jun 9 2011, 05:58 PM

Somewhat off topic rant:

It's amazing how much little things like sizes and gear weight can matter, especially in a world that it fairly 'real'. I understand that they left it out to reduce bookkeeping, but at times I think it can be quite important. I mean, just how big is a commlink? Considering how important they are, it is never really explicitly stated that a normal commlink is about X size with the high end models maybe being as big as Y size. We have concealability to go off of, but that covers a fairly large range.

Personally I'd have preferred a 'here are the weights for reference, but don't feel the need to keep track of exact weight unless it becomes particularly important to the game'

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Jun 9 2011, 06:06 PM

Oh hell, yeah. On a similar note, The basic purpose of a vehicle is to carry cargo or people from point A to point B.

That, for me, rather suggests that how many people of how much cargo should have been one of the primary stats of the vehicle rules, not something to be done away with to make the book shorter.

Posted by: Tyro Jun 9 2011, 07:06 PM

Hear, hear!

Posted by: CanRay Jun 9 2011, 07:21 PM

There'd be a lot less ranting and raving on the forums, that's for sure.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 10 2011, 02:46 AM

Ok, so the general consensus is that the Lynx is a small car, and the dragons could be anything. Awesome. Now, statless flamethrower issue would be nice. . .

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 10 2011, 05:07 AM

Actually, I solved that. The stats are precisely what you were thinking if you use the Mini Flamethrower addon for the commlink (SG 146). It has ammo for one shot, a range of 2 meters, DV of 4, and -half impact for AP. It's scary how accurately this models your original attempt at statting it.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 10 2011, 05:42 AM

It's like they actually read a preceding book!

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 10 2011, 09:32 AM

Where was it I could get the "This Old Drone" PDF?

I still think that I should take the firelance laser and add mobility weapon upgrade and a drone pilot - It would probably be even more movable on its own than mounted on a drone.

Say, IS there any restrictions to getting weapon upgrades to vehicle weapons?

I have this view of a rigger with accompanying Firelance vehicle lasers floating behind him...

*EDIT*

Oh forget that, a drone with gunmount is far cheaper and has non of the negative impacts of a propulsion system.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 10 2011, 01:10 PM

Yes. The restriction is 'vehicle weapons can't'.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 10 2011, 01:24 PM

Nope, I've checked.

There is nothing under vehicle weapons or weapon upgrades that hinder vehicle weapons to have weapon upgrades like propulsion.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 10 2011, 01:27 PM

I didn't say it was in the book. You have to read the unwritten 'is this insane?' section. It applies to the majority of weapon mods on vehicle weapons.

However, I think it falls under the rule, "Instead these weapons are meant for installation aboard vehicles only." 'Effectively a tiny drone' doesn't cut it, as you know.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 10 2011, 01:44 PM

oh, yea, but that depends entirely on the pink mohawk factor.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 10 2011, 01:59 PM

Of course. Still, the flying mod can only make smaller guns (inc. holdouts) fly for 2min, so your huge laser cannons better work fast! Aren't they also connected to giant batteries?

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 10 2011, 02:56 PM

Nope its not. There is no mention in the propulsion upgrade about the size of the weapon, only that the battery pack or fueltank is limited compared to a drones normal propulsion and thus have a more limited flight/movement time.

This means that the propulsion upgrade is scaleable to the weapon it's supposed to lift

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 11 2011, 03:14 AM

I'm sorry, I was still speaking reasonably, not RAW-wise. Either way, 2 min isn't long, and giant lasers still need (external) batteries.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 11 2011, 07:16 AM

Well, actually I dont find it unreasonable , considering the cost between a large drone and the flying propulsion system it is rather reasonable that I can get a flying laser cannon since the propulsion system itself is 20K - That is as much as a conestavista (sp?) bus.

Compare that to a large drone at (VTOL variant) 2000Y Add weapon mount for about 2000Y or so and the propulsion system is still silly in it's extreme cost.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 11 2011, 04:31 PM

Trailer Hitch and the little wagon from the first part of "The Hurt Locker". Done.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 11 2011, 05:51 PM

Huh. I wonder if I can replicate the Hellsing "dual-wielded 30mm autocannons vs war zeppelin" scene using flying gun mods. At the very least you could use em to reduce the apparent weight of a cannon.





-k