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Posted by: ggodo Jun 11 2011, 03:49 PM

Ok, I've got a new player who wants to make a face. What cyber does a face have that will improve their faceness? Tailored Pheromones is obvious, voice modulator seems useful, what else can He take to make him artificially personable? What stuff should he take to round himm out? Is adept a better choice? Augmented adept? How does one make a face?

Posted by: suoq Jun 11 2011, 03:55 PM

Trimming down the Pornomancer to the basics
Elf for Charisma
Adept for Kinesics
First Impression
Chatty
Empathy Software

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 11 2011, 03:58 PM

1) Good natural charisma
2) Glamor Surge Quality
3) The Fame quality
4) Kinesics Adept Power
5) improved skill adept power
6) voice control adept power
7) Tailored pheromones
8 ) Emotitoy/Empathy software
9) Knowing how to use the social modifiers table to your advantage
10) Good selection of contacts
11) Good Lifestyle

Posted by: Mäx Jun 11 2011, 04:04 PM

Full Pornomancer build with the wares italized:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)

3+15+8+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 53
or
3+13+9+6+3+2+1+3+3+6+1+2= 51

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 11 2011, 04:11 PM

Generally for a face, you'll want to be a little more general than the pornomancer. I've found that about 20 dice before social modifiers is plenty of dice. The character will want to minimize their notoriety and make the most of their street cred.

The face will want some sort of secondary skill set, since just being a one trick pony in shadowrun isn't too much fun. For example, you can talk your way into a club and use palming to slip drugs into someones drinks, or seduce a gaurd and then restrain them with escape artist so the rest of your team can sneak in.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 11 2011, 04:18 PM

Ok, judging from this, adept/augmented adept is pretty much the ideal for better talking and to pull in some secondary skillset as well. Palming seems like it'll fit with the player's ideal. I was mostly wondering how one makes a purely cyber/bio face, in case the player reacts adversely to magic. Not expecting another Longbowrocks, but it looks like adept or bust.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 11 2011, 04:22 PM

Not really, as you can see from the full pornomancer build i provided, only 6 dice out of 50 come from adept powers.

Posted by: Makki Jun 11 2011, 04:37 PM

and 5 from a spell and 2 from the mentor spirit...

for a pure cyber/bio guy in addition to the already mentioned

Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer

the GM may allow +Charisma through Cosmetic Biosculpting. For the Empathy Software you need a tricked out Commlink and ideally Cybereyes for the built-in camera. Elf with Genetic Optimization and an Addiction to some Charisma pushing drugs and you're throwing more then enough dice. With room for a second proficiency.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 11 2011, 05:08 PM

Only on the truly maxed out version as thats the only way to max out charisma, but that spell can be casted by a team mate too.
Nad there is the alternative version speedballing all the charisma enchanting drugs, if the increase attribute spell isn't an option

Posted by: Glyph Jun 11 2011, 06:57 PM

For a mundane face, tailored pheromones and a vocal range enhancer are the most reliable. A face is one of those builds where you can get 30+ dice, but can get by with 12 or so most of the time. Adepts are good, because kinesics give another +3 dice and are not obvious. Empathy software is a gimme, if you allow it (I think it is overpowered dice pool inflation myself, and a lot of tables ban the stuff). Qualities such as first impression, or some cosmetic surgery, can add dice.

Some things to watch out for - glamour is nice, but makes your character dangerously memorable, and makes it hard to blend into the crowd. Enhanced pheromone receptors can give you penalties in fairly common situations (crowds, strong odors) and make you more vulnerable to tailored pheromones - the negatives outweigh the positives, in my opinion. Fame is a bad idea most of the time - and note that getting the bonus from it always involves revealing your real identity.

Other things a face needs - lots of languages, decent data search ability (a good commlink with some linguisofts and an agent can help a lot with this, if you are tight on points), a high perception, the ability to disguise yourself, and an extensive network of contacts. I did a version of a more traditional face http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32584. It was intended as a sample character, so not very min-maxed, although it would be easy to tweak it to add things like tailored pheromones and empathy software to it.

Posted by: suoq Jun 11 2011, 07:09 PM

Side notes: Personally, I prefer a face with some agility and intuition. The stealth group, perception, and ability to shoot their weapon of choice nicely rounds out a face. If you have to sneak AND con your way in, it helps to have a face who can infiltrate, disguise, palm, pay attention, and then shoot their way out of Plan B.

But that's just personal preference.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 11 2011, 07:14 PM

I too like a combat face more then a pure face.

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 11 2011, 08:28 PM

A good face will want some sort of combat utility. It sucks to be able to do nothing when the bullets start to fly. Luckily, pretty much any build can benefit from having some social skills.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 11 2011, 09:38 PM

I like the quick-change artist face. Bullets start flying in a gang war and suddenly you look like one of those gang members.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 11 2011, 10:04 PM

You might also consider a more mundane face: Instead of spending a ton of BP on adept powers, get the necessary basics (elf charisma, ware), and spend those points on being an Edgemonkey instead.

While having 25 dice is great, having 16-20 and 5-7 uses of exploding dice and rerolls can be just as good, and perhaps a bit more versatile.

Posted by: baronspam Jun 12 2011, 03:11 AM

Check with your GM bofore taking an emotitoy/software. From what I can gather many consider them a somewhat broken rule and houserule against them.

Posted by: Magus Jun 12 2011, 05:03 AM

I would really like to sit this game with a Elf (Dryad) Adept Face. In Spy Games there a LOT more Social Adept Powers, or so I have heard. One especially Master Kinesics? Plus other facial sculpt powers.

But all in all it would be HILARIOUS to have another AWAKENED charater that would drive Longbow nuts. LOL He already hates mages for the ability to zap him across the planet, so why not a Pornomancer/Face Adept that can tell him what to do and he has to do it, and hhis character is convinced that he loves it. Howling good time.

Sorry Longbow I love your ingenious rants against the Awakened, it always makes me smile...

Posted by: ggodo Jun 12 2011, 06:56 PM

Well, the player ended up going sure adept once he discovered Commanding Voice = Jedi. Speaker's Way 4 life. It's been a good addition to the party having a smooth operator to talk them out of some of the trouble they get in. Honestly, I can't wait to see the look on Longbow's face when Frosty shows up in DOTA. KABOOM! "THIS IS WHY I HATE MAGES!" He was happy that they got to kill a toxic shaman and capture an adept, though.

Posted by: Magus Jun 13 2011, 03:41 AM

LOL
I have an Femal Elven cat shaman/mystic adept for Longbow to meet. He would love her until she melts his face off....and not with her mage powers Rowr!!

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 13 2011, 04:33 AM

Just remember that party members won't take kindly to you repeatedly using social skills (or any other skill) on them unwillingly.

Posted by: Critias Jun 13 2011, 06:58 AM

Not "a lot more," but a few, yes.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 13 2011, 06:58 AM

Using negotiation means you are like a used car salesman, and your mark will likely have "buyer's remorse" afterwards. Using con means literally that, conning someone, and there is a reason that con artists hit the ground running after they have fleeced their mark. Seduction means, well, you're basically a dirty whore. Intimidation means you have frightened and coerced someone into doing something you want, and people who experience those emotions tend to feel massive resentment towards the person doing it to them.

A face using these skills to manipulate teammates is a complete idiot - that's like slapping someone's face and then turning your back on them. The victims would be well within the bounds of roleplaying if they shot the offending character at first opportunity. Indeed, the face would be the one roleplaying poorly, since a decent face would use their ability to manipulate others sparingly, knowing that they can breed resentment over the long term.

But social skill use in PVP situations is a minefield, because the rules are so subjective, and fail in so many places. They are good as a quick, simple way to resolve easily quantifiable situations, but they break down when you try to get too complicated with them. Their biggest problem is that most of the listed modifiers assume normal usage of these skills, so efforts to represent what should be exponentially more difficult situations can fail in the face of the humongous dice pools that faces can have.

By the way, commanding voice is not a Jedi mind trick - that would be the influence spell. Commanding voice is more like the Bene Gesserit voice, an immediate compulsion that doesn't alter the target's mind beyond compelling the initial obedience.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 13 2011, 08:24 AM

A minor nitpick, but I don't see Negotiation being like a used car salesman. It COULD be, if the player / NPC plays it that way. But Negotiation could also be haggling, etc. Heck, one of the specs for it is Diplomacy. Not everyone walks away from a deal feeling like they got screwed. If it was a skillful-enough Negotiation, the "other party" will likely feel like they got a good bargain.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 13 2011, 09:46 AM

I'll see your nerd ante and raise you Wesley's "Drop Your Sword!"

Posted by: suoq Jun 13 2011, 12:36 PM

No. It doesn't. Negotiation is how you give the person you're doing business with the same knowledge that you have so that they understand why you charge what you charge, what they're getting for the money, and what they can get elsewhere for what they're willing to pay.

I use negotiation in real life EVERY time I work with a client, be it a repeat client or a new client and my goal is to have repeat clients that I want to do business with and that means not ripping someone off, not being ripped off, and having a good working relationship throughout the contract and after.

It also means acting like your Fake Sin, behaving in a manner designed to draw attention or in a manner designed to NOT draw attention. It can be used to convince a drunk to not get in a fight or to not get in their car. It's the skill of an actor, a comedian, a professional wrestler.

I hate to break it to you but there are a large number of people who like to flirt with each other. They know they're flirting. They know the other people are flirting. They are enjoying the game, knowing it's a game, and they are NOT "dirty whores" for doing so. When I spend the evening seducing my wife, I am not a "dirty whore" (unless she really wants me to be). When someone is the model in a photo shoot, they are not a "dirty whore", even if they appear seductive. You may have a problem with seduction, but, and trust me on this one, it's YOUR problem.

It also happens during games of Roller Derby (and there's no resentment at the drinking party afterwards). It's a turn on for a number of people I know. It's a solid display of confidence and knowing one's place in the world. When a bunch of people have a problem they can't solve and someone walks in and takes charge, that's a moment of relief from everyone, but the skill that should be rolled is intimidation. Having a presence is as reassuring as it is scary. It all depends on what side you're on.

Social skills are not necessarily negative interactions. They're the foundation of positive social interactions.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 13 2011, 01:15 PM

Just because it's considered rude to use your social skills on your own team does NOT give them the right to openly and blatantly ignore the fact that your character is attractive (socially at least), persuasive, and generally the kind of person they want to be around. If your team is metagaming and ignoring such things, I say turn about is fair play when you force them to roll in order to NOT treat your character well.

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 13 2011, 01:57 PM

Let's also remember that Seduction is not a skill; it is specialization of Con.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 13 2011, 04:17 PM

Reminds me of the face that wanted to be a sniper for a mission. The discussion went from IC to OCC.
Sniper: Why be sniper? I have 15 dice for it. Do you even have a gun skill?
Face: No, but I have 28 dice in Negotiation. Hand over the rifle.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 13 2011, 04:47 PM

Heh...

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 13 2011, 06:44 PM

I could see the sniper letting the face take a shot. Once. Then take the gun back in disgust

Posted by: ShadowWalker Jun 13 2011, 07:55 PM

My opinion on all of the Sensor software is that when used by a player to augment their own personal ability it should work as if they are doing team work.
Roll the dice add any successes to your own dice pool. I really don't like it just adding dice right on top.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 13 2011, 10:48 PM

There is a decided difference between treating somebody well and capitulating to their every whim. The sniper could rightly have demanded proof of the face's ability before allowing him to waste one of the sniping bullets. High charisma & social, though, would more or less indicate that the sniper would likely give him the opportunity to prove himself, and not be too doubtful in the mean time. It's the difference between Assertive and Passive-Aggressive. Assertive is confident, unafraid of confrontation though not necessarily seeking argument; Passive-Aggressive avoids confrontation while seeking argument (in so many words). Also, something to remind the face, he doesn't always get his full 28 dice; there's negatives for stepping on the specialist's toes (in th is case, the sniper, who has clearly demonstrated/been hired for his ability), therby insulting the specialist (another negative), potentially placing the operation at risk (racking up the negatives here), potentially ruining the sniper's reputation if he fails (cut out some more), and so on, and so on... Sure, he may have a decent amount of dice remaining after all the negatives are taken out for situational modifiers, but then there's still the threshhold to pass (I'd say willpower + 2 or something like that). A face who abuses his ability will rack up notoriety/negative reputation. Caveat emptor, after all.

Still, this does NOT disqualify my statement above about players mistreating their face DESPITE stats and situations that indicate quite the opposite. Mistreat the face who has proven themselves to be unreliable/detrimental, not the one who's yet to be proven so.

Posted by: suoq Jun 13 2011, 11:40 PM

In addition to the above.

Face rule #273: You can't draw blood from a stone.

The Johnson is working off a flat fee. The client has 15,000 for the team to get the job done. The Johnson knows this is not enough, has informed the client it's not enough, but is presenting you with the contract anyway because he's getting paid to and you gotta pay rent. He's offering the full 15,000 because he figures he can at least explain the offer with no serious damage to his reputation. Heck, you might even take it. Offering you 12,000 with the intent of pocketing the 3,000 wouldn't do any good if he knows you wouldn't take the 12,000 anyway and you finding out the real offer just sinks his rep. At least this way he gets the flat fee and a reputation for being honest, at least once.

So, no matter how many dice the face rolls. You ain't getting paid more. From a certain standpoint, if you do roll those dice, and the client is at the meet, the client (believing everything the face tells him) starts walking away from the table. The face inadvertently convinces the client he can't afford it.

Face rule #347: The sky isn't green.

I don't care how many dice you roll. You may even convince me that you are a noble prize winning historian who is an expert on feudal Japan. I might buy that, but I'm not buying this for an instant. Mythbusters could do a 3 hour special proving it and I'm still not buying it anymore than you're buying the suggestion that somewhere there's a list of face rules that goes up to 347.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 13 2011, 11:57 PM

While true we have seen print missions that have just that scenario mapped out. Granted the mission is a little odd, the Johnson comes to the table with some cash that is a decent amount. But if the rolls are right you walk away with his van too, if I remember correctly. Not saying it will always go down that way, or even most of the time. But if something can be done once it can be done again. Over in another thread where movies were being discussed Ronin came up a lot. Whether or not it is a SR movie is not really focus here, but more the negotiation style of the lead character.

Posted by: suoq Jun 14 2011, 12:38 AM

Three things I'll never understand.
1) Why they agreed to pay Sam and the team in Ronin 100K in advance.
2) Why Sam asked for the money in the first place. That makes NO sense by the time the movie is over.
3) Negotiation scenes in Missions.

"You want us to kidnap someone from a AAA cocktail party with no advance notice, no recon, and we're getting paid how much money? What is this, amateur night?"

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 14 2011, 01:07 AM

1) Rep goes a long way.
2) His 401K sucks
3) Agreed. Heh

Posted by: Glyph Jun 14 2011, 02:42 AM

On the flip side, why should they bother doing anything other than metagame if the player of the face is metagaming? By which, I mean that most of these bullshit examples I see (the face who wants to be a sniper, etc.) are not a face acting like an attractive, socially adept character, but a pushy, obnoxious asshole.

I may have used a bit of hyperbole in my previous descriptions of social skills, but I was trying to describe scenes like the would-be-sniper and other examples of faces that I have seen on these boards, and how they can, and should, breed a lot of resentment.

I'm not saying that it has to be that way, but using social skills on other PCs can be tricky enough with cooperative players, much less with munchkins.

I do agree with people who say that they should give the face a chance, first.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 14 2011, 02:50 AM

I'll drink to that!! ... well, I would if I could even afford a 6 pack of pabst... *sigh*

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 14 2011, 02:58 AM

Nah. Intimidation is brute force; taking charge of a confusing situation is Leadership. Seduction (as a Con spec) might overlap *slightly* with fun flirting, but it's tricking via sexuality; 'consensual flirting' is just a form of play, not an opposed skill (Con) test at all.

To say that these don't cause conflict and resentment is a greater exaggeration. Social skills have significant limits, and the GM has to stay on top of them.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 15 2011, 02:35 PM

As a GM, I wouldn't take "I use my 30 dice in Con to do that" seriously.

Sure, dice pool matters. The player can say "I'm going to spin him a hard-luck story and get him to cut an innocent-looking girl some slack instead of arresting her", and if his character looks like an innocent little girl, then he's probably going to succeed.

People seem to obsess about stacking all manner of exotic dice pool modifiers (glamour and other weird metagenic traits), but the end result if that your character becomes extremely memorable. The problem with that is that after the first couple of runs, everyone knows who you are, and infiltrating with a cover story becomes nearly impossible.

I think a somewhat-handsome human with really smooth talking skills, a datajack full of KnowSofts (to "talk the talk") and a good wardrobe makes a much more effective face; a good face is a chameleon, not a fashion icon.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 03:07 PM

Hear, Hear... Well Said...

Posted by: Blade Jun 15 2011, 03:19 PM

You have to be careful with Tailored Pheromones: they're forbidden (so they aren't common) and all it takes to discover them is a cheap sensor. For me, people used to negociations (such as Johnsons) will check for these and refuse to start the negociation while the pheromones are activated, just like they'd refuse to negociate with a mage who's casting a mind manipulation spell on them. Either that, or they'll be wary of the pheromones' effect and the face will suffer a negative modifier that'll compensate the one the pheromones add.

Also, gear/spells/powers aren't the only thing that a good face can use. He can also use the situation or the information he has: have the target drink or take some drugs, get him to relax, know what kind of people he like so as to look that way, know what the target will be more receptive to...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 04:05 PM

Can't really turn the Pheromones off, though...

Posted by: Rubic Jun 15 2011, 04:31 PM

Sure you can turn them off! It just takes two taps and they stop functioning!

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 15 2011, 05:16 PM

Keeping an olfactory scanner on during negotiations just makes sense, for both parties. It's also a reason not to take the pheromones if you can't shut them off: some people will refuse to deal with you (face to face), just like they would with a mage known to use mind magic.

Anyway, try the face with the subtle touch: invest in skillwires and 'softs, so you can impersonate engineers or technical specialists. Take the 'ware or powers that let you quickly manipulate your appearance and biometrics. Be like the Pretender instead of making a Lady Gaga dryad with glamour.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 06:16 PM

Heh...

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 15 2011, 06:23 PM

Tailored Pheromones are bioware. As I understand it, bioware systems are impossible to turn off. I'd say the only way tailored pheromones COULD be turned off is when the owner is calm, and in control. This would require a composure test (albeit would be fairly easy for many face characters) and another anytime the opposed person does something that might illicit emotion. But, that's a bit heavy. So, in most cases I would say it can't be turned off. And as such, someone else may need to negotiate (I hope your pornomancer isn't the only negotiator in the group. Heh heh heh...)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 06:34 PM

The two taps reference to turn off the Bioware is a reference to "Double Tapping" your target with two bullets.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 15 2011, 07:12 PM

Whoops. Completely missed that. Odd, considering one of the PC's in one game I GM'd developed a mania for double tapping after a few targets got back up Slasher horror style...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 08:10 PM

Heh... No worries...

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 15 2011, 09:30 PM

A Face should decide how they want to play their character and then stick to it. A guy with global fame and a luxurious lifestyle isn't going to be an infiltrator. A face who dons personas and people can't quite remember the real them isn't going to draw unwanted attention to themselves.

A player just needs to remember that all faces aren't the same and not try to play his character in a way they weren't made to be played.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 15 2011, 10:09 PM

In addition to pheremones being A) iilegal and B) easy to detect, quite a few Johnsons will keep a magician on hand to sweep for magicians and scoot them out as well, just in case of mind-reading, mind-controlling, and similar spells. This could well include Pornomancers.

Of course, you'll also have numerous Johnsons that'll only deal online, where none of that magic is worth a plug nickle.

As such, a good Face needs to be able to be an everyman. Yeah, it's important to pass for a suit when dealing with execs, a high society sort forhobnoberry with snobbery, but you also need to be able to drop into seedy bars and pass muster with the gangsters and convince the cops that you're a scared citizen and that the scary guys with guns went THAT-a-way.

As such, human, not Elf, is ideal, with magic and cyber kept to a bare minimum. Keep your charisma up, your willpower too, and concentrate on supporting the rest of the team ... backup gunslinger isn't good sinc ethere's a heavy investment in IPs, but skillwires are cheap for great bonuses for slipping into character roles and you can always manage some second-tier decking in a pinch.

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 16 2011, 12:15 AM

The ability to talk is useless if you can't do anything with it. A face's legitimacy comes from what he can do once you've spoken to someone. Can he slip someone drugs? Sabotage a vehicle? Hack nodes? Distract or entertain people? Restrain or immobilize people? Pick locks? (De)activate a bomb?

Talk is cheap if you don't have the skills to do something once you've talked.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 16 2011, 12:39 AM

I would think that the talker would be the best person to slip someone a drug. Or lift someone's keys/pass. But I get your point.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 16 2011, 02:29 AM

I'm not sure I agree with tailored pheromones being super-easy to detect - sure, you can detect that someone is emitting pheromones, but, um, so does everyone. Plus, running them that way would make them useless, and I wouldn't want to gimp mundanes of one of their dice pool boosters, and turn the game even more heavily towards adeptrun.

Personally, I don't see Johnsons as the type to get whiny at social skill boosters they probably run into fairly often (and are likely to use themselves). They are more likely to crack their knuckles, put in their nose plugs, and sit down to verbally slug it out. The only exception to that would be mind control spells, which I think any sane Johnson or runner would consider the equivalent of an attack.

I do agree that the best faces are the social chameleons with skills and contacts to support their social abilities. Entertainer/faces are fun, but not optimal despite their sky-high dice pools (except in campaigns where social skills equate mind control, where they make the flaws of such an approach even more glaringly obvious).

I wouldn't dismiss combat/face types out of hand, either. Wired reflexes are actually astoundingly cheap - wired reflexes: 1 is barely over 2 build points worth of resources (I consider 2 IP good for runners who want to be able to contribute to a fight; 3 IP is what I consider the minimum if you actually want it as a full-bore second specialty).

Posted by: suoq Jun 16 2011, 02:55 AM

I want to make sure I understand this. The Johnson sends all your magic capable people out of the room and the non-awakened characters at your table choose to stay in the room with him and his mage? Is he allowing the characters to keep enough firepower to blow the Johnson and mage both to hell and back or are the characters staying in the room because they really are that trusting/desperate?

No. I don't. Maybe you do, but that's not in my contract. I don't even own the type of clothing one would wear into a seedy bar.

I'm sorry. Are we filling out a job application to be on your team? You've gone past telling people what you like to play and seem to be telling them that there's some sort of "one true face". That simply isn't so. People build a face they want to play at their table, other tables and other players be damned.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 16 2011, 06:25 PM

I concur entirely. What if the mission takes you into a non-human-friendly meta enclave, like Tarislar or the Ork Underground? I concur somewhat with eschewing ostentatious magic or cyber. But no single character is going to fit in perfectly everywhere. And IMHO a "face" in the broader sense of "socializer PC" doesn't necessarily need to be the perfect chameleon, either. What about an up-front negotiator, for example?

I think you could even go for an all-face group where every character specializes in social interaction with a certain milieu, so you'd have your streetwise face, white collar face, magic face and so on. Of course the other skill sets should be present as secondary abilities of the various characters.

Posted by: Makki Jun 16 2011, 06:31 PM

there were suggestions on this forum, to make Etiquette a Skill Group. Well, it would be hard to define...

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 16 2011, 06:40 PM

Eh, I wouldn't go that far. I once played in an SR3 group where the GM houseruled that you had to take Etiquette as a separate skill for each distinct group. That's the way it was in SR2, IIRC? Which sucked considerably if you wanted to play a character who was even marginally socially competent outside his own "subculture".

Im perfectly fine with a generalist Etiquette skill. I'd just use the social modifiers tables to encourage sending "the right face for the job".

Posted by: Dez384 Jun 16 2011, 06:44 PM

While it's nice to have a dedicated face, social skills are something that it doesn't hurt for to have everyone in the party to be able to do to some degree. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be throwing 20 dice, but unless your character is a mute, there will be talking at some point to someone. Doesn't hurt for the gunbunny to have a rank or two of intimidate, the mage to have a rank of con, so on and so forth.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 16 2011, 08:14 PM

Depends. Most pulling 'astral security' are there to block attempts to cast things at the client (Mr Johnson) and to point out if there's an attempt to use magical abilities (adept abilities, for instance) to influence things. At that point, Johnson will likely either A) walk, or B) tell the group to send their mage out or else he'll walk.



Not he contract, but common for business opportunities. Can you pass for a janitor? A record company exec? Groupies? The more options you have in your bag of tricks, the more likely you are to get hired. If you only wear a suit and shades at all times, well, Johnson can hire a different group. No skin off his nose.



There's no "one true face"... I'm just pointing out (ironic, really) that the heavy-magic, phermone-dipping, Emotoy-using "Roll a ton of dice" guy isn't the only way to go. In some games, he works out fine, but, people should keep in mind that cyberware scanners are common, astral security is not uncommon, and pheremones come with a legality of F ... Same reason I don't suggest keeping a tag eraser in your pocket at all times. Racism and facism are both rampant in Shadowrun and Lone Star stops people for searches on a regular basis.

"And this matters why?"

Well, simple really ... if you're an Ork, jandering about with unregistered cyber or an unliscensed gun, in the 'good part of town', you can expect to get stopped and hassled by the Star. Maybe they'll just get you to move along, but they might also demand to see your SIN (You are broadcasting it, right? No? What do you have to hide?) and check your papers out. Running clean is much harder when a non-human race, simply becaus eyour chance of getting stopped goes up by at least an order of magnitude. (Mind you, this can flipside ... the non-Elf in Tir sticks out, as does the non-Ork in the Ork Underground, and so on. We're painting in broad strokes for now.)

At the end of teh day, the OP wanted suggestions and advice, and I gave mine, just like others did. Mine just happens to go in a different direction and in no way, shape, or form should be held up as gospel.

That pathway lies cluttered with the dead of "Pink Mohawk vs Black Trenchcoat" discussions, and I don't think anyone wants to break another one of those out, neh?

Posted by: Mäx Jun 16 2011, 08:35 PM

And they can tell that my adept face has improved social abilities and kinesics how exactly?

Posted by: suoq Jun 16 2011, 09:17 PM

We did not contact Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson contacted us. Therefore we are not there to kill Mr. Johnson, but we are aware of the possibility that Mr. Johnson is there to have us killed. Lots of people want to have us killed. If you're looking for amateurs, Mr. Johnson, then yes, please walk, and find someone else.

Nope. That's not what I do. I handle negotiations, management relations, and terminations. I don't mop floors.

And he's welcome to do that. In fact, if he needs people to mop shit off the bathroom floors, some names leap to mind.

Especiallly if you look like a janitor. Personally, I find the Star tend to be polite to someone who dresses appropriately, has his licenses in order, and is appropriately "grateful" to those who understand that I have appointments I don't wish to be late for. Because life has been good to me officer and I can afford to grateful to those looking forward to a well deserved retirement or paying for their children's education.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 16 2011, 10:20 PM

@suoq, why are/seem you so offended?

I think it's more than reasonable for Mr. Johnson to be upset or just walk away if people try to use magic to influence him. That's rather hostile; how would the players react if people did it to them?

I don't think sending mages/adepts out of the room is very normal. Actually, I think most mages will spend the meeting keeping close watch on the other side's mages, to see if they're trying anything funny. Casting spells of any kind is frowned upon; it's easy to notice spellcasting, much harder to know for certain that the spell wasn't hostile. When dealing with people you don't trust, assume any magic use is hostile.

Adept powers are a bit more subtle than spells, but Kinesics and Commanding Voice are noticeable. Kinesics works by enhanced body language; I think stuff like Empathy Software and vary body language analysis software could detect its use. Perhaps even really good conventional perceptiveness. Doesn't mean it has no effect, just that Johnson is aware you're using it.

Pheromones are slightly less troublesome, because unlike say, Control Thoughts and such, it just powers up the Face, rather than overwhelming a good Johnson immediately. It's still aggressive, but it's only a bonus, which the Johnson can match, or negate with some sort of breathing apparatus. Or just by sitting a long way from the Face.

I think pheromones have their uses: they're good for dealing with security guards, snooty waiters and seducing office clerks. They aren't really so good against "wise people" because those people watch out for them.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 16 2011, 11:17 PM

Make Etiquette a Knowledge Skill, applicable when using other Social Skills...



QFT-also applicable to every character, since SR doesn't have "classes"

Posted by: Glyph Jun 17 2011, 02:38 AM

Kinesics is one of the more subtle adept powers, and it is also one that is continually "on", much like improved (skill) or improved reflexes or combat sense. It might be detected by a mage, or guessed at by a savvy observer, but I have a hard time imagining a Johnson walking out of a meet because the team's negotiator is an adept. I don't see things like astral perception, 'ware such as tailored pheromones, kinesics, or (assuming the GM allows it) empathy software being treated as anything other than a normal part of the game - and the Johnson is every bit as likely to use them as the PCs.

Commanding voice, on the other hand, is both useless for negotiations (it only makes someone obey a quick command with their next action), and about as blatantly obvious as drawing a gun. It falls into the category of using mind control spells, brandishing weapons, or making crude threats - it can not only end the negotiations, but escalate to violence.

Posted by: Makki Jun 17 2011, 03:01 AM

"I'm sorry Sir, I must have missed it. What's your name again?" Now the team knows the Johnson's real name. He's way too deep in to go home now.

The problem is, what will the GM do? Call it a night?

Can anyone give a reference, that passive Adept Powers are noticeable by any way?

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 17 2011, 03:52 AM

Without Masking, an adept's aura is clearly magical.

I *believe* that aura reading will get you more details than that (What type of magician, for example)... from there, we know that auras show when they're in use ... casting a spell 'glows', and the spell can be observed and noted. Passive spells, like quickened or focused spells, also give off a 'glow'. As such, I figure it's safe to extrapolate that the use of any magic creates a ripple that can be detected if observed and, possibly, identified.

Spell formula, and spell use, can be restricted or made illegal (Thus the legality codes for combat and manipulation spells), but there's nothing (yet) about teh legality of adept powers, only rules about using them in sports. With social adepts being a fairly new thing, I'd wager that the law hasn't caught up to them yet but will. Of course, that doesn't always matter to Shadowrunners, but.

At any rate, a little assensing should indicate that someone is an adept and, from there, they might or might not decide to negotiate with a different team member instead. Your Johnson May Vary and all that.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 17 2011, 03:58 AM

I think it's important to note, not every Johnson will have access to every means of limiting your face's ability to do their job. Not every Johnson will have a pocket-mage for negotiation (especially if they're trying to HIRE a pocket-mage for negotiations). Not every Johnson will have an unhackable commlink (in fact, much of the fluff supports this statement). Not every single Johnson works for a AAA corp, or has a bottomless expense account to prepare for their meet with the runners. If your Johnson has every conceivable angle covered when the team goes in for the meet, then it's usually a sign that the runners should tell him to find somebody else, and walk.

If you don't at least have an equal option of exploiting the Johnson as much as he's exploiting you, then you're probably in over your head.

Posted by: Critias Jun 17 2011, 07:34 AM

Except that that isn't a command, and even if it were -- like was already mentioned -- busting out "TELL ME YOUR NAME" reinforced by magical power is likely to escalate a conversation into something quite a bit less pleasant.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 17 2011, 07:43 AM

Meaning he kills the team and moves to the next team in his list, hoping they won't be totally retarded amateurs

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 08:37 AM

I really don't get this belligerent attitude towards Johnsons. It's like you're crying Foul if you can't easily abuse him. Consider his perspective:

You need people to do a Job. You need to trust these people enough to know that they'll do the Job for money, and keep quiet about it.

Now, when you meet with the people recommended to you, they try to manipulate you with illegal pheromones, adept powers, mind control spells, emotitoys, and they try to hack your commlink.

How would you feel about employing them?

Posted by: Blade Jun 17 2011, 08:46 AM

Posted by: Makki Jun 17 2011, 12:22 PM

Two hits on an Assensing Test reveal that he's an adept, which are hard to get, once he has Masking. But passive powers never leave a signature. At least I couldn't find it.


If he has these kind of resources, he didn't need to hire them in the first place. Especially killing the team on the spot. I have never met a Johnson with this kind of backup at the meeting. I'm a shadowrunner, I would have noticed.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 01:00 PM

Killing a team on the spot is a bit extreme. I'm sure Johnson brought enough bodyguards to make it an even fight, though.

And unless he's desperate, he'll be looking for a team with a more reasonable negotiating style. The kind of "friends" that aren't worse than his nominal enemies.

---

I think it's a matter of setting style whether Pheromones will be acceptable at a Johnson meet; if they are, Johnson is probably using them too, and he's steering the conversation so he's making opposed checks against all the team members, not just the Face.

On the other hand, if Johnson isn't using Pheromones himself, he probably doesn't want the PCs to use them on him, so if he notices them, he might announce that negotiations will have to continue over a secure phone link instead.

This is why I don't really like Pheromones; they constrict your options as much as they give power. It's an illegal, aggressive item that you can't help but reveal to those with the (fairly available) means to detect them.

In general, bioware is only lightly restricted, and hard to spot. Neither of those is true for Pheromones - they're embarrassing, and that's not good for a Face.

Posted by: Nath Jun 17 2011, 01:13 PM

It's supply and demand. Runners has the skills. Johnson has the money. Fixer has the runners. Johnson needs the skills and deniability. Fixers and Runners need the money. I believe there ought to be a lot more runners on the market than job opportunities.

If a deal goes badly, Johnson can probably find another skilled team within a few days. The runners may have to wait a few weeks before getting another shot. That is, if they ever get another shot. Your fixer is not going to wait you piss off every Johnson in town, hurting his reputation and preventing him from gaining money. He'll blacklist you. If he doesn't already have several other team available, don't worry about him, he'll find. While Johnson probably don't talk a lot to each other, fixers do. Quickly enough, everybody in town (plus a few people out of town) is going to know about that team of runners that can't get a deal done because they always want to know whom they are working for.

Posted by: Makki Jun 17 2011, 01:24 PM

He can use a breather, right?

Posted by: suoq Jun 17 2011, 01:54 PM

Ok. Mr. Johnson goes onto the next team. They don't have illegal pheromones, adept powers, mind control spells, or the ability to hack his commlink.

Why is he even considering employing them?

If I need to employ criminals, spies, assassins, hackers, etc. the first thing I do, personally, is understand that I'm employing criminals, spies, assassins, hackers, etc. I'm not expecting to do business with nice, friendly, non-intimidating people. Even if they're Danny Trejo nice on the inside, I have to expect that they're Danny Trejo threatening on the outside because that's what they have to be.

I, personally, am belligerent towards Johnsons because Johnsons are the enemy I do business with. He is not my friend. He is not one of my contacts. He's the suit, the man, the power. But our team has what he wants and he has what we want and if we're lucky we'll get out of this alive and paid.

Some people here play at tables where Mr. Johnson can be trusted and expects to be treated well because the team is either desperate, stupid, or afraid, or maybe there's some sort of house rule that says Mr. Johnson will never screw you. That's fine for your table. Personally, I view Mr. Johnson as a threat. In just meeting with us in person he now potentially knows more about us that I'm comfortable with and may have any possible ambush set up for us should we be the people he's looking for.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 02:24 PM

@suoq:
I didn't say the party should be incapable of illegal practices, just that Johnson doesn't want them used on him.


Johnson wants deniable assets, because the Job requires there's no trail back to him. Otherwise he'd use company men, who are usually much more reliable and trustworthy.

Now, if you pry into his identity, you stop being deniable. You're no longer an asset, you're a liability. He needs to get rid of you, because you're a threat to him.


Sure, sometimes not knowing who Johnson is will be dangerous, but knowing will always be dangerous, because it gives him a motive to kill you.

Posted by: suoq Jun 17 2011, 02:57 PM

And so he physically steps into the room thereby creating a trail, many trails, back to him.

The people who do not want a trail back to them are not in the room. I'll draw from Ronin, since that seems to be the Shadowrun movie of choice. The person the team meets with, who knows the plan, arranges for money, arranges for weaponry, etc. is Deirdre. She is, for all intents and purposes, Ms. Johnson. She's in this one neck deep. There is a person in the movie that none of this is supposed to be traced back to. The person who requires that there's minimal trail back to him is Seamus O'Rourke. The only trail there should be back to him is Deirdre.

Now we understand that, as the behind the scenes character, Seamus O'Rourke fails. His failure is the core of the movie. On the other hand, a character in a similar role does not fail, the fixxer. The fixxer is referred to in the movie "A fellow that doesn't walk so well." aka "The man in the wheelchair" aka "The Man from Bristol". We never see him because, unlike Seamus, he doesn't screw up.

Sam tests everyone in the movie. He tests Gregor. He ambushes Spence. He repeatedly tries to get information out of Deirdre such as what's in the case and who does she take orders from. By the logic in the claim that the runners shouldn't use their tools against each other or Mr. Johnson, Sam is a horrible runner. He shouldn't test Spence (and therefore let that idiot get them all killed). He shouldn't test Gregor (and therefore know less about him than he needs later to track him down). He shouldn't question Deirdre (even though his job is to find her boss IF her boss is Seamus). Note that while I don't see him test Vincent or Larry, Vincent delivers the cars and computers and Larry can clearly drive, so perhaps he didn't need to.

Posted by: Nath Jun 17 2011, 03:44 PM

A runner that is a CIA agent under cover whose only objective is to get his real employer arrested or killed, is indeed a horrible runner. IMO. As a Johnson, I wouldn't want to work with him.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 03:54 PM

Ronin is a fantastic SR movie, but as I recall, just about everything goes horribly wrong for everyone, so it's not really a good primer on Best Practices.

It makes me wonder though, about the whole "meeting Mr. Johnson" thing. I mean, it's a convention of the genre, but all in all it's often a very bad idea.

You could take a step back, and ponder from Johnson's perspective; "how do I discuss business with these people in a way most advantageous to me?" Do you really want to meet with maniacs who keep cleaning their swords during the meeting, try to hack your commlink, watch your aura and so forth?

Oh, there could be reasons...
* Communication face-to-face is generally far better than any other way. People understand each other much better that way; purely written or telephonic communication misses a lot of the cues that bring across a point fully. This can be important when laying out a complicated or delicate mission.
* Physical goods: makes it easy to hand over a MacGuffin or a credstick.
* Get a good first-hand look at the runners; in order to assess their apparent competence and trustworthiness, or just because you want to assense their auras for later..
* To spread misinformation, by for example carrying identifying stuff from another corporation, or to fake body language to make it seem like you're scared or naive.

But unless Johnson has some sort of good reason to meet in the flesh, why should he?

Posted by: suoq Jun 17 2011, 04:44 PM

Ascalaphus: I may be misunderstanding you, but there seems to be assumption in your post that Mr. Johnson is the client. I don't believe that to be true in all case. In some genres that might be true. Examples might be the nice clients on Burn Notice, Leverage, A-Team or (if you're old) Stingray. In those examples the end clients meet directly with the team and it's probably best that the team be more trusting, simply because that's the genre.

However, I believe that when the client does not want to deal with the team directly, it is in their best interest to hire an agent to handle their affairs. The agent is known, by tradition, as Mr. Johnson. Mr Johnson's job is to oversee the request while keeping the client out of the loop. He launders the money, provides deniability, and is paid to take the risks the client does not wish to take themselves. This is a much more paranoid world than the genres in the above examples.

How Mr. Johnson protects himself and his clients is something that is, quite possibly, unique to each Mr. Johnson. However, protecting tjemselves and their client is their business and that's what they're being paid for. It may be that, over time, certain Johnsons develop a "relationship" with the team, contacting them through appropriate or possibly even inappropriate channels. (Although if a Johnson's daughter EVER calls me again because her daddy is in trouble, I'm selling her to the lowest bidder in the Barrens.)

----------

Nath: That's OK. You can work with Spence instead. Then after everyone gets capped in the tunnel and you're out the money, you can go to The Man in the Wheelchair and ask for a new team that has even less time to do the job.
Edit: Gregor doesn't go on the guns trip, so he'll still be there to betray team number 2 with an exploding case.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 05:09 PM

Johnson is rarely the client itself, but he does know (more about) who the client is, and he needs to keep that information secret. So when the runners try to use Pheromones, hacking or magic to gather information about him, he should consider that an attempt by the runners to gain that confidential information.

He wants to deal with people who are okay with not knowing too much about him. If the runners are unwilling on that point, he's best served by walking away.

(I'm working under the assumption that not getting the target of the run is better than being exposed and facing CC retribution. Better to walk away than to have it go wrong.)



Johnson is looking for runners whose only concerns about him are:
1) Is he good for the money?
2) Will he pay?

Johnsons require a credit rating just like runners; Johnsons who plan to do their job more than once have an interest in preserving their reputation. If all is well, the runner's fixer can vouch that the Johnson has been good for the money in the past, and that the runners are capable and reliable.

Contrary to a lot of fiction, most of the time Johnson doesn't want to screw you over, he just wants results for an acceptable price. If Johnsons tried to screw over teams all the time, the "system" would collapse. A Johnson who screws teams gets a bad reputation with the fixers and has trouble finding good teams in the future.



There's a final good reason not to want to know Johnson's identity: if you know it, you're part of the trail that whoever you run against will try to follow. If you don't know anything, and don't have anything because you delivered the prototype to Johnson already, you're not particularly worthwhile to go after. It can be healthy to advertise the fact that you don't have any information worth beating out of you.

Posted by: suoq Jun 17 2011, 06:11 PM

Note that personally, I have no desire to know anything about the client while wanting to know too much about the target, but that's just me. However, I do expext the Johnson to negoitiate if he's trying to pocket a little on the side (he may be, he may not be). I also expect him to withold target information because the posession of such information may tell something about the client. Because of these factors, negotiations can become part of the game. Mr. Jonson has reasons to withhold from us the things we want. He is notnour friend.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 17 2011, 06:32 PM

Possibly, but witholding that information is likely to result in a failure of the mission. Failure is generally not the intent of the meet. Negotiations are always part of the game. But it tends to be in the compensation realm rather than in witholding the information needed to complete the mission.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 17 2011, 06:45 PM

I don't expect Mr. Johnson to be my friend, but I do expect him to be a reasonable businessman. He wants the mission to succeed, so I expect him to hand over all information he has that will make it easier. If he has to censor parts of it to protect his identity, too bad, but random withholding just to be annoying I don't expect.

He can try to misrepresent the run; "it'll be easy", but I think that's amateurish; it reduces our chance of success, because we'd underestimate things. And he should want us to succeed.

---

I expect a lot of negotiation about what exactly is a "fair" price for the Job. He'll want to keep it low, we'll want it high. Maybe we can find some other item, information or service he can obtain that's more valuable to us than to him, and thus make a good deal for both of us. The exact result depends on the Face.

We would like payment up front, as much as possible. He would prefer to pay everything upon completion of the Job. If our reputation is good, we might get some up front. If he doesn't have any reputation, we won't settle without a percentage up front. Maybe the Fixer holds on to the payment until the Job is done, if neither side can trust the other. The exact result depends on the Face.

We need a good after-mission protocol: how to we hand over the MacGuffin, how does he pay us? How do we ensure neither side shafts the other? Which ground feels safe and neutral? Again, the Face has to strike a deal for us here.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 17 2011, 07:21 PM

The fact that a standart corpore Johnson is hiring a team of deniable assets has absolutely nothing to do with him lagging in resources and everything to do with him needing a team of deniable assets.
Also it's not really hard to kill a bunch of retarded amateur runners with a surprise attack from a couple of goons.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 17 2011, 07:22 PM

Not every mission is on the up and up, either. In 2068-2070, and even to some extent beyond, Technomancers were at risk of being sent on tail-chaser missions designed to out them to the corp and capture them. Regular runners run into similar at times, when some corp or exec wants revenge and has the spare budget money. Spiders hire runners to test their security set ups and troubleshoot problems. If the Johnson is leading you into a trap, then it's in your best interest to know it. If the Johnson lied about what you were REALLY doing (poisoning a drink for a hate crime rather than simple corporate sabotage as per fluff), and placing YOU at greater risk than what he's paying you for, well, that's just not cool. It's in each person's best interest to get the most out of a meet as possible, whether it's money, insurance for later, blackmail material, or idiots who were too stupid and polite to check your commlink and find out how poorly you're underpaying them for the risks they'll be facing and any investigations likely to follow.

Mr. Johnson follows the rule of Jack Sparrow, in that you can always trust a dishonest man to betray you, and the lion's share of meets are going to be between criminals of one sort and criminals of another sort. Are you gonna be too scared to pick up some notoriety to avenge your fallen teammates? Besides, if you hack his commlink or assense his aura, who's to say you'll get accurate information? An experienced Johnson may show up disguised as a man on a ventilator (bye bye pheremones), false information on his mid-grade commlink (he was hoping you'd hack it), begging for your help when he only has a small amount of money, a few herlooms (from a second-hand store, with new/no RFID tags in them), and his personal gratitude. Run goes off with out a hitch, the Johnson gets what he asked for, the team gets the payment they agreed to, and the runners and target are none the wiiser.

Alternatively, that last scenario I described could EASILY be responsible for the runners picking up a VERY nice contract the next week from the same Johnson (they don't recognize) negotiating over the matrix, for a big corp who knows now how competent these runners are.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 17 2011, 09:16 PM

Again, tailored pheromones are not a big deal. They fall into the category of things such as glamour, empathy software, or kinesics - things that give you a bit of an edge in negotiations. Not every side will have every such advantage, but both sides will use it if they've got it. If I went to a meet and the Johnson had one of those dice pool boosters, I would not consider it an attack, or mind control (although both sides would use things such as nose filters or areas with background counts to their advantage, too). Likewise, I would assume assensing on the part of any awakened character.

Some skullduggery is more frowned upon, but still usually not a deal-breaker. The runners know that the Johnson will try to keep tabs on him, and the Johnson knows that the runners will both double-check his information, and try to find out whatever they can about him. the Johnson may not like it when the hacker tries to hack his commlink (even though it will most likely be a generic commlink with no sensitive information). The face may not like it when the Johnson's hacker sabotages his emotitoy, or when they find an RFID tag on the certified credstick they were paid with. But it likely won't make either party walk away from the deal (if they catch the other party red-handed at it, they will be in a stronger negotiating position, of course).

Only things like mental manipulations, mind probing, blackmail, commanding voice, or threats of violence will end the negotiations. And likely start hostilities.

It depends on the campaign. The SR1 archetypes, which had a vignette of the character speaking first, made you think that runners threatening Johnsons was a fairly common thing.

"Better make it a good offer. Your face is startin' to look more and more like a basketball."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 17 2011, 09:33 PM

No Arguments there Rubic... I understand all that. But to assume that it is the norm, that you are going to be continuously screwed over, is somewhat ludicrous. Yes, you will get this from time to time, but it if it is every run, well, something is not right.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 18 2011, 02:01 AM

If things were right, then Runners would be out of a job.

Posted by: LostProxy Jun 18 2011, 02:33 AM

And if that keeps up Corps would be out of runners. There may always be someone desperate enough but that in no way means there would always be someone skilled enough. To needlessly throw away assets like that when it's against the Corps best interest is irresponsible at best.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 18 2011, 02:56 AM

In the 2070's there's a ton of unfortunates being pressed in the meat grinder of corporate and street cultures. People on the low end trying to work their way up, people outside the system trying to get in, and people on the inside trying to get out. There's also the multitude that gets caught in the crossfire. So long as there are people who want more than they have, there will be somebody to exploit that desire. Runners are a dime a dozen. Mr. Johnson's only slightly less so. The fixers and the corps are the parties most interested in keeping the status quo, hushing up the small stuff and eliminating the big stuff. A Johnson screws over too many runners? The fixers and runners won't deal with him, making him worthless to his corp. Runners causing problems? Fixers and Johnson's will blacklist them. But if a runner catches the Johnson in a screw over, they don't just go running to a Fixer crying that Johnny wasn't playing nice. If they're lucky they'll get their runner card revoked and sent packing to one of the nearby corp havens to apply for a job changing diapers.

Now, if a runner manages to hack a Johnson's commlink and they make him, that's some leverage in the runner's favor, so long as the Johnson doesn't catch on to this tidbit. Then again, if the runners hack the Johnson's commlink and find it says he's working for Horizon when he claimed Evo, and the 'link has an Ares shell and SK guts, they know the guy came prepped, probably from MCT or some upstart who knows a good rep to negotiate with.

tl;dr, paranoia is healthy, blackmail is normal if not expected, and rule zero (don't get caught) always applies to all parties. If your Johnson is faithful and clear, and doesn't do more than haggle a bit so he can afford a new suit after the run is over, then the hacking was extraneous, but insurance never hurt anybody until they were caught (back to rule zero).

Posted by: LostProxy Jun 18 2011, 04:21 AM

But that doesn't answer my main argument. That there won't always be someone skilled enough. Shadowrunners by sheer mechanics and perhaps by fluff are a cut above the rest. Your average Joe is probably throwing maybe 9 dice for a perception test. A decent runner 12+. That correlates that in world they are just better at stuff. How long do you think it takes to get that kind of training and experience? Every runner was someone else's investment and those investments take time.

It's not a matter of there not being desperate enough people, I already said there always would be, but a matter of people with the ability to do the job. Especially the higher end ones.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 18 2011, 04:56 AM

the high end is just as likely to be like the low end as it is to be people who are figuratively at each other's throats putting up a nice front, buying each other hundred dollar meals at executive functions while ignoring the elephant in the shadows. Prime runners aren't necessarily made of a predetermined figure so much as surviving what I tend to dub "Darwin Checks." It's not about being the fittest, per se, so much as being fit enough to pass whatever challenge you come up against. This could be through skill, armaments, contacts, or resources with the fundamental rule being to stack the odds in your favor. Survive an arbitrary number of Darwin Checks to the point where people in the world start talking about what you've done, and you'll find you're considered Prime, even if you didn't evolve much from the 400 BP protozoan you started as. If stacking the odds means hacking a 'link and then keeping closed lips, so be it. Just because you got the info doesn't mean you have to apply it or out the Johnson. It just means you can hold the little turd accountable IF he tries to double-cross you.

Remember, nobody needs to know that you actually know anything. Not knowing can be very lucrative and increase survival. The key point is that a Johnson is as much a criminal as the runners. Treat him the way you'd treat any other criminal on the opposite side of the table.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 18 2011, 11:22 AM

I think that a 400BP runner is already above-average. Normal desperate people fit into the 300BP slot.

Consider Attributes: rating 3 is defined as average, and you can't spend more than 50% of your BP on Attributes. For 300 -> 150BP, you get an average rating in them of 2.875 - subnormal! 400 -> 200BP on the other hand gets you 3.5s on average, which is clearly superior to normal people.

So these people aren't in fact in abundant supply, they're unusually good.

---

The point also is that the whole shadowrunner-Johnson market will only function if in the majority cases, the Job really is the Job and not some setup. You can't camouflage a screwover as a normal Job is normal jobs are not the majority, because the presumption will be that you're setting them up.

Compare it to selling drugs: if 70% of all cocaine on the market was actually powdered sugar, nobody would believe they're being sold the real stuff, not without extensive testing (which defeats the point of the scam).

Likewise, the majority of all Jobs need to be the real thing if the shadowrunner market is to function.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 18 2011, 12:38 PM

I agree that Johnsons will usually not screw over the runners. And runners will usually not blackmail the Johnson. But it only needs to happen once, thus the typical precautions and paranoia on both sides.

Posted by: suoq Jun 18 2011, 04:31 PM

In the contest between Shadowrunners and everyone else, I think it's a mistake to think everyone else doesn't have the BPs that shadowrunners do.

Some have more, some have less, most have spent a good portion of their BPs on non-shadowrunning skills.

Somewhere out there there's a cook (Artistan 6 specialized in Orc Cuisine) who has ware over his torso, arms, etc, that allows hot grease to spash on him and he can keep on cooking. It'll do as armor in a pinch. He knows how to do things with a knife that your specialized street sam couldn't do without burning edge. His cybereyes contain IR thermometers accurate to a 10th of a degree so he knows exactly how hot every surface is. His left hand has a brulee torch wired and his control rig runs the kitchen. And while he's in that kitchen he has Home Ground advantage out the wazoo.

Sure, find him on the street and he's road pizza to your crew. But if you even think about using his kitchen as an exit strategy and you didn't recon this, you're going to find your way in Plan B really quickly.

Sure, you'll still turn him into road pizza when it's over, but he isn't some 300 point loser. He's just not a shadowrunner.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 18 2011, 05:37 PM

Exceptional Runners, However, are NOT a Dime a Dozen. A Johnson would likely be out of a Job if he constantly tried to screw over the Quality Help that he NEEDS to do the job. Most times, the Dregs just are not going to cut it and he is going to need a team that is GOOD at what they do.

Yes, there will be a lot of Dregs out there. That just means that the Johnson has to treat the Quality Help a bit better, to keep them happy and not looking for his blood.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 18 2011, 06:23 PM

If you really want to know how often a Johnson screws over a runner, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Shadowrun_books#Adventures_and_campaigns, including http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/ and count the number of runs where the Johnson screws over, or plans to screw over the runners. Compare that to the total number of missions, weigh by pay or importance if you wish, and voila!
You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over runners.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-popular-phrases-that-make-you-look-like-idiot/ What, pray tell, was so long you couldn't be bothered to read, yet feel the need to disagree with?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 18 2011, 06:43 PM

… Wasn't he giving the TLDR version of his *own* post?

Posted by: Mäx Jun 18 2011, 06:46 PM

Yes he was, but someone apparently has problems with reading comprehension

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 18 2011, 07:11 PM

Yeah, you gotta wonder about that. Maybe the writers all thought they were being "original" or "edgy" or "gritty"?

I think that it's perfectly natural for a Johnson to try to keep costs down, but actually screwing over the runners (instead of just trying to low-ball) should be unusual, if he expects to have a career as a Johnson instead of just this one case.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 18 2011, 07:13 PM

I have a problem with asinine text speak. Use your words.

Posted by: suoq Jun 18 2011, 09:35 PM

No. You have the likelihood of the Johnson screwing over the runners in a published adventure. This says a lot more about published adventures than it does Johnsons. Your logic when combined with Season 3 also indicates it's normal for every NPC to know exactly where and when you're making a run and if you do them a favor while you're there, they'll give you "What's in the box". Granted, you don't know what's in the box and they refuse to tell you until you've turned over the MacGuffin so your reward could be a monofilament cheese slicer or a new Tata Hotspur.

Missions, Season 3 works that way. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone willing to defend, from anything other than a Missions perspective, Shadowrun working the way last season worked. Like the NAN, we simply stare in confusion and then work around it.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 18 2011, 10:25 PM

The likelihood of a Johnson screwing you over is more based on the GM you're dealing with, more likely than not. That and if you're working off a high connection rating or not. If you and your Johnson get along well, then you're looking at a low chance for a double cross. Also, it's more about what the Johnson stands to gain or lose by screwing you over, too. Say the Johnson is a pro playing at being bad. His appearance, astral signature, 'link, DNA left behind, etc. will not conclusively lead back to him. At such a point, esp. with trusting runners, you'll find it's a matter of whim for the Johnson to play it honestly or not. I reiterate, Rule Zero: Do not get caught. If the Johnson can get the run done, frame somebody else for the screw-over, and keep all of the money for himself, what's stopping him besides a poorly defined and subjective moral stricture? Mostly what your GM will consider best for the story.

Personally, I don't have any plans to screw over players with an untraceable Johnson. When I choose to screw over my runners, I'll have planned failure into the Johnson's methods to let them get revenge, pay, or both.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 19 2011, 01:32 PM

I have to agree with this very much. I had a bar owner NPC that gave a runner a real hard time. In the end, the runner left the place with his hands over his head and his gun on the floor. And that's how it should be if the players are acting like the world was built as their playground, and they can do anything they want.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 19 2011, 05:34 PM

True.
The disagreement, as I understand it, was that some were saying that it is status quo for a Johnson to screw over runners and others saying that is not so. A disagreement about individuals' take on the universe.
That universe, however, has been mapped out in extensive detail by over a hundred books and twenty years of continuity.
My idea was to take that continuity and use it as a map for how the universe works using statistical sampling; flawed though that sampling is.

Your personal interpretation of Shadowrun is more than free to disagree with published material. As always, what happens on a run is entirely up to the GM(and that gets into Intermediate and Advanced game theory.)
But the argument, as I understood it, was over the intrinsic nature of the Sixth World as it exists as it's own entity, not as it exists within one's own interpretation. The statements were not "I think a Johnson would..." the statements were "In Shadowrun, a Johnson would..." implying the world has a set of rules which it follows. If that is so, then the best way to determine that is to take a look at what we know of the world through published material and base your interpretation on that rather than conjecture.

Personally, I think, much like in real life, a lot of corporate people suck at their jobs. A lot of Johnsons won't follow procedure or take every precaution for the same reason that people at my girlfriend's work aren't allowed a microwave because people kept putting metal in it. Yes, that person was a manager. Yes, the amount of money she makes is staggering.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 19 2011, 06:37 PM

Johnsons will vary a lot - you can't have hard and fast rules for every Johnson. I think any first meet is going to involve some paranoia on both sides, though, even if it eventually works out into a more amicable, established relationship.

Of course, on the flip side, runners have to be careful not to get too chummy with their Johnson, or they might wind up actually working full-time for a corporation or syndicate, becoming company men/enforcers rather than shadowrunners (of course, for the more mercenary-minded runners, that might actually be a goal for them).

Posted by: Raiki Jun 19 2011, 06:41 PM

"And by the way [shadowrunning]'s not about making money, it's about taking money. Destroying the status quo because the status is not quo. The world is a mess and I just need to...rule it."





~R~

Posted by: Mikado Jun 19 2011, 07:02 PM

OK, I'll give you bonus points for the quote, Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog kicks ass.

Posted by: Raiki Jun 19 2011, 07:47 PM

That's because he has a PHD. In Horribleness.

Posted by: Mikado Jun 19 2011, 08:12 PM

Is that the new catch phrase?


Yea... I see this degrading into a "lets quote the whole movie" scenario...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 19 2011, 10:16 PM

Seattle 2072 talks a bit about the trustworthiness of Johnsons;

In other words, a lot of Johnsons nowadays look to the long term, and want reliable shadowrunners they can use again and again, but you still need to watch out for Johnsons out to "leave no loose ends".

The key to preventing such a "tidiness" Johnson from screwing you is to make it very clear to him that killing you will NOT tie up his loose ends; that everyone will know, that nobody will work for him in the future, and that he becomes too hot for his own boss to keep.

I guess the simplest way to do that is to just record the Johnson interview through your cybereyes... if the team gets screwed, his face will be all over the Matrix. Have dead-man's triggers, that release the information if you're no longer there to suppress it.

Posted by: sabs Jun 19 2011, 10:19 PM

You want Mnemonic Enhancement, Linguist, and a good disguise skill for a face. If you're a cyber face, a skillwire isn't a bad idea..

Posted by: Glyph Jun 19 2011, 10:30 PM

I agree with the general idea, but keep in mind that it will probably take more than that. The Johnson won't be wearing his real face to the meet, or if he is, a bit of outpatient biosculpting later can change it. Sometimes the best thing to do is to let your fixer know, both because the fixer is likely to know more details about the Johnson, and because if the Johnson betrayed you, your fixer is another loose end for him to tidy up.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 07:45 AM

Good points.. the Fixer "system" does work to increase reliability for both parties, because both runners and Johnson would like to protect their reputation, and the Fixer is a sort of arbiter.

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 12:32 PM

If I heard this at the table, this would be my first thought.

"Wow. The team has a access point they AND only they contact on a regular basis and they have to keep contacting it. Do they contact it physically or through the matrix? If they fail to contact it, there's no end of people who would pay to see the team dead. Are they begging for a TPK?"

I can't even find the upside to the team's plan. Either they told the Johnson and trashed their own rep and created an incentive for the Johnson to find this access point or they didn't tell the Johnson and not knowing about it, he has no additional reason not to screw them, but once he does screw them, he has even more reason to see them dead.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 12:44 PM

"Mr. Johnson. Just so no unfortunate mistakes get made: we have set up some insurances. If you screw us over, or try to dispose of us, you'll get in trouble too. No need to go into the details, but it'll be quite nasty. And we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.
Now, as long as we all behave professionally and deal straight with each other, nothing untoward will happen. Do we understand each other?"

The threat of retaliation is useless if you don't make it. But someone who knows you can strike back will think twice before attacking. A team that doesn't use insurance is just begging to be disposed of.

There are hundreds of way you could implement such an insurance; it can be very subtle. Ideally, Johnson can't be certain he knows how it works.

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 01:24 PM

Mr. Shadowrunner. If I didn't think this mission involved serious risks and didn't include the probability that the rest of your life becomes very interesting and very short, I wouldn't have hired you. I have cheaper and more loyal useful idiots to send on walks in the park. Now you are telling me that you have taken out "insurance" so that if your team screws up and gets yourself killed, my already complicated life becomes more complicated, simply because I have made the mistake of hiring your team to do a job for which I see you're clearly not qualified.

The offer is off the table. Now think about your"insurance policy" and consider the phrase "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and pray that my complicated life doesn't become more complicated.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 20 2011, 01:41 PM

Most Johnsons of anyone but the most gutter level runners should be taking into account that the runners will have their own insurance.

Really, both parties should assume the other side will have protection of some sort and there should be no need to mention it. But even if it is brought up, It's not something that should be unusual or offensive. It's just being pragmatic. The Johnson will have insurance of his own why should he think the runners will not?

More important than the fact of it being mentioned is the manner of it being mentioned. There are discreet ways of emphasizing the point without being overly threatening.




-k

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 01:54 PM

suoq: in that case the runners are really better off without that Johnson. He's either unreasonable or not in good faith;

A) He really thinks that anyone who trusts him without insurance is incompetent? Then he's an idiot.

B) He doesn't want the runners to have insurance - because he's got plans to dispose of them.

Notice that I didn't threaten "if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed", but something quite different: "if YOU screw us, we screw you back."



So, as a team, you're really better off without that kind of client.

Posted by: Nath Jun 20 2011, 02:00 PM

Well, in my game, that's why fixers are there. They're more than a convenient mailbox.

If the runner believe there were screwed, they call their fixer. If the Johnson believe he was screwed, he call the fixer. the fixer will check what really happened. And he will already have the personal details and blackmailing material at hand for all side involved.

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 02:03 PM

Agreed. My objection isn't the insurance. It's the nature of the insurance as stated above: "it'll certainly go off". I don't care if you have a magic circle who will investigate me and hunt me down if I actually did something (unless I'm planning to do something) but the thought that there's a mindless trigger that I have to hunt down and deal with if the team screws up makes this harder than it has to be.

Again, agreed. The two of you already aren't friends. Being threatening is NOT going to help matters.

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 02:29 PM

Mr. Johnson deals with runners for a living. Darwin is hell on Mr. Johnsons. An idiot Mr. Johnson is a dead Johnson.

Of course he expects you to have insurance. The issue is that you have uncontrolled insurance AND you're threatening him. You are threatening a person who quite possibly has a collection of hit teams he has successfully employed in the past with some form of insurance that goes off and creates complications in his life if your team (not him) makes a mistake.


What you SAID was "we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if, especially if, we get killed in some suspicious accident.". So no. What you effectively threatened was ""if the mission goes wrong, you're screwed". (Out of curiosity, can someone think of a non-suspicious way for Shadowrunners to get killed?)

I agree, Your team is better off without that kind of client. Your team needs to work with clients they can overtly threaten without repercussions. I'm fine with that. That may actually be a more lucrative way to do business.

Posted by: Nath Jun 20 2011, 02:39 PM

No, but I can certainly imagine how PC could react if a sleepy security guard working for Mr. Johnson's corporation and returning home after a double shift happened to smash into their car on the highway, or if the whole team succumbed to food poisoning after eating in a fast-food...

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 02:54 PM

If Mr. Johnson, a man who negotiates with and employees shadowrunners and hit teams for a living, uses those techniques to solve a problem presented to him by a team of shadowrunners, then yes, he deserves a Darwin Award.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 20 2011, 03:01 PM

Lung cancer

Posted by: Nath Jun 20 2011, 03:06 PM

My point: see, jumping on conclusions. Those are events that can happen to anybody. It doesn't have to be some plot. And it shouldn't trigger some MAD strategy from the runners.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 03:12 PM

You're making assumptions here. Johnson was told there was insurance - not that it was mindless. The insurance could be anything. Don't put words in my mouth.

Johnson can ask if he can be sure the insurance won't go off by accident. But since we don't trust him, we won't disclose exactly how we do it. We'll assure him that it's reliable, and make it clear we're not bluffing.



It's not meant as a rude threat, but as a professional warning (the same thing, but done with good manners).

I don't think my point is getting across well (traditional internet problem); the right way to something to a Johnson depends on the kind of Johnson, the kind of character, the way the GM thinks those things should be run, and so forth. Your group's style of talking may be different than mine.

The point of the message is;
1) We (the PCs) are not stupid, and have insurance.
2) If you try to screw us, it'll go off; even if you succeed in killing us.
3) It's nothing personal, just business.



No, that's not what I said.

Johnson is most likely to betray you after the mission is done; before that he still needs you. So while you keep the insurance on standby before then just in case, you don't set it to "dead man's trigger" until the Job is done and it's time to collect payment/make the handover, because that's when Johnson will try to avoid paying or try to "tie up loose ends", preferably by surprise.

So if the mission goes sour and you all get killed inside, the insurance won't go off. But if snipers pick off the PCs at the rendezvous point, or if somehow LS knows exactly where to find "terrorist Toxic ghouls, shoot on sight", you betcha it'll go off.



There's no need to be condescending like that.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 03:14 PM

Why didn't he get a new lung?



Eh. The chance of that happening by accident are so small. Occam's razor suggests blaming Johnson for any "accidents" that happen around payday. 99% of the time you'll be right.

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 07:00 PM

The words from your mouth. Read what you actually said.

This is an issue with faces (and with characters who are, for whatever reason, acting like faces). If you say "X" then, while you're still going to roll dice should you want a specific outcome, that outcome will be based upon what you said, rather than the information you want your character to convey. Had you said something like "The face makes sure that the Johnson understands:
1) We (the PCs) are not stupid, and have insurance.
2) If you try to screw us, it'll go off; even if you succeed in killing us.
3) It's nothing personal, just business." you're likely to get a different result than "we've set it up so that it'll certainly go off even if" because the bolded quote and #2 have incredibly different meanings, even if you intended them to mean the same thing. By putting words in your character's mouth, the NPCs have to act on those words. The dice can still reflect delivery, pheromones, non-verbal communication, etc. so it's not like you're removed his dice pool by speaking in character.

I may be a jerk. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's clear to me now that you're expecting me to react to the message you intended to convey rather than react to the message you actually said, and that leaves me in a position of arguing with you because I listened to you. If you want to convey those three pieces of information to the NPC, that seems fine. If you want to actually have, as insurance, the policy you mention above in post 115 of this thread in a campaign I'm running then I'll bet my bottom dollar that at some point that insurance WILL go off while players still have characters alive and their lives will get very interesting. I have a hard time thinking I'm the only one here who sees that plan as an boobytrap the players have set on themselves.

Edit: The plan mentioned above
I'd be asking questions so I know exactly when that booby trap is going to go off, because when it does, it gets interesting.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 20 2011, 07:40 PM

Why didn't he get a new Ryumyo? ZING!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 20 2011, 08:10 PM

Not to be an Ass here, but if you look a sentence or so earlier, he is pretty explicit what the initial circumstances are...



It seemed pretty clear to me anyways...

Posted by: suoq Jun 20 2011, 08:28 PM

I saw that section, and that seemed acceptable, even possibly expected for the situation. Had he stopped speaking at "nasty", it would have seemed a perfectly normal low level threat.

It was the whole "we've set it up" line that created a big WTF moment in me because that line seems to indicate that they've created a situation where the NPC may suffer repercussions if things go bad in a line of work where things going bad is normal and predictable.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 20 2011, 08:36 PM

Makes Sense, I guess...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 20 2011, 11:25 PM

I would appreciate it if I get to have the last word about what I meant when I said things.

Clearly we had some misinterpretation; when I say "we've set things up", that could mean either a data dump on the Matrix that posts to every newsgroup automatically if you don't log into your MiracleShooter account every day, or a cabal of mages that goes looking for you if you don't come around for the weekly poker game, because you warned them you're doing a job for someone you don't trust. I didn't want to get bogged down in the specifics, but I did make it clear what the triggering condition would be: Johnson screwing over the PCs.

But hey, if you set insurance against Johnson, then sooner or later it's going to go off. It wouldn't be fun if you put a lot of work in those things every mission, and they never go off. Even if you do everything right; just because that's the cinematic thing for the GM to make happen. Like the really completely unrelated accident that the players perceive as Johnson screwing them over, at which point they decide to take "revenge". Or, of course, when the GM decide this Johnson is a dick, and the players gleefully get to give him what they had coming for him.

But that's applying metagame genre-savvy to the situation; not something the PCs are aware of, only the players. The PCs can be perfectly convinced they've set up the insurance in a can't-possibly-go-wrong way.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 20 2011, 11:50 PM

Perhaps, but methinks you just said too much in the original post. "True eloquence is in saying that which needs to be said and nothing more". If that was a negotiation, I might ask for an ettiquette test to catch your faux pas.

Posted by: Blade Jun 21 2011, 08:09 AM

One of my campaign ended sooner than expected when the hacker filled his physical condition monitor and his biomonitor, thinking he was dead, published all the insurance (which covered all the runs they've made and nearly all the people they'd dealt with) everywhere it could in the city's grid.
The hacker wasn't actually dead but after publishing that it became a matter of hours.
It was fun.

Posted by: sabs Jun 21 2011, 02:03 PM

My hacker records everything. He's got files on every one, and facial recognition, and all that good stuff.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 02:15 PM

Indeed... Nothing wrong with that.

Posted by: suoq Jun 21 2011, 02:18 PM

Just don't tell anyone, or else you'll find your commlink is some other team's MacGuffin.

Hmmm. I may have to flip that one around and write it up.

Posted by: sabs Jun 21 2011, 02:21 PM

Yes he doesnt tell anyone. He makes a good face, because he's got files on everyone. So he totally remembers that you have 2 kids, one of which is having trouble in school, because of a bully. He has personnel files on the shadowrunners he's run with, on every contact, and Johnson he's ever interacted with, and every target.

And yes, that's a mcguffin waiting to be stolen.

Posted by: sabs Jun 21 2011, 02:24 PM

The key ingredients to a good face.
Social Skills
Disguise
Linguistics
Information

It's not good enough to be socially adept, you have to be able to give the person a reason to trust you. You have to look like someone they trust, or speak their language, or have information about them.

Face/Hackers with decent disguise skills make excellent faces. They can walk into a building, pretending to be a janitor, or a secretary, or a security guard, get good legwork done. It's a nice combo.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 21 2011, 02:47 PM

Another side of this discussion is that we now have 2 nice story hooks for runs: 1) Runners are screwing over the Johnson anyways, or over a misunderstanding, and the Johnson has to save face and protect himself, and 2) a fixer was tasked with being the trigger, and now he needs a forensic investigatory team to double check the loss of a particular group so he knows whether or not to drop the 'drama bomb.' Either or both could easily go into making a novel.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jun 21 2011, 03:18 PM

what ?!?!? he doesn't have backups (datachips) stored in multiple places?!?

Hope it's not a hacker/face in any game I'm in

Posted by: sabs Jun 21 2011, 03:35 PM

Fractal can neither confirm nor deny.
And no, he doesn't have backups yet. Though right now it's high encrypted.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 21 2011, 03:44 PM

Backups don't help when someone wants the dirt exposed, only when someone tries to bury it.

Posted by: sabs Jun 21 2011, 03:46 PM

Yeah, he doesn't want a copy of that.. anywhere but on his person. It's stored on a datachip slotted into his datajack.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 21 2011, 03:51 PM

Ah the terrible choices a hacker has to make.. offsite backups, friend or foe?