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Posted by: JM Hardy Jun 12 2011, 04:18 AM

A new PDF-only product Gun Heaven, is on sale now (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2799, http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=92357) in case you have a craving for more SR weapons. And who doesn't? Here are the basics:


A Gat in the Hand Means the World by the Tail

Look, we all know that there are plenty of runs that go best when you don’t fire a shot. But we also know how foolish you’d be to go out without your trusted sidearm, because you never know when things are going to go south. Or when you’re going to be hired simply because you’re the person who’s got the right weapons for the job.

If you’re looking for a new weapon to add to your arsenal, Gun Heaven is the place to go. Featuring thirty-two guns—complete with descriptions, information on their use, game statistics, and full-color illustrations of each item—Gun Heaven collects older weapons and newer designs, ranging from the SIG P298 hold-out pistol, with its slim-line design, to the massive Ogre Hammer and its devastating punch. Get caught up on the predecessors of the legendary Ares Predator IV, or check out one of the most recent offerings from Onotari Arms, the assault-rifle/shotgun combo Xfactor III.

Gun Heaven will help any team of runners pack out the way they want, while also providing opportunities to make a few nuyen by finding and selling pristine versions of older models to collectors. Gun Heaven is for use with Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition.


Jason H.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 12 2011, 04:32 AM

From the several sample pages at RPGnow, it looks like the '1 per page' image+facts format, with fluff description and testimonials. Fancy.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 12 2011, 04:52 AM

Yeah, browsing through it now. With the PDF-only books, space isn't as much of a premium, so they can afford to go back to the one-per-page layout. Nice.

One thing that jumps out at me, though, as a gun enthusiast - a number of the artwork pieces look nice but are clearly done by someone with limited knowledge of firearm mechanics. It's not a major issue, but the pedantic inner voice in my head is screaming "guns do not work that way!"

They did finally establish what mechanics to use with Battle Rifles. Sporting Rifle ranges, takes Assault Rifle mods, uses Automatics skill.




-k

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:14 AM

A lot of artists don't. A while back, I was involved with... Something. Let's leave it at that, and had to work with a graphic artist who had zero concept of weapons outside of a fantasy element (He was GREAT at swords!).

I found a bunch of YouTube Videos and showed him a Sten-II firing to show him how a bolt worked back and forth in a SMG. Slow-motion shots of a Semi-Automatic (Colt M1911A1, IIRC and knowing me.). And a few other things. After a few things like that, the concept art dramatically improved. It helps that I was also describing the mechanism for the weapons and so on as well... An engineer might go, "Oh dear $Deity!" but anyone less would go, "Yeah, that might work that way...".

EDIT: Also just picked it up and now have to postpone sleep for Gun Porn. DAMN YOU!!! Giving me what I want!!!

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:52 AM

OK, gone through it. Yes, the new firearms are, "Oh dear $Deity, firearms don't work that way!", but the classic weapons are nicely drawn out (Some nice old friends as well!). And, *GASP*, are those CALIBERS I see? Yes, yes they are! Who'd have thunk it?

Also, the addition of a sorely lacking part of the firearms portion of Shadowrun: Machine Pistols! They finally get some lovin'!

Some additional information that could work as an equivalent of Errata is a nice addition as well, although a part of me hates for having to pay for it.

Now I'm wishing that at least one of those three groups I had contacted had actually happened and I could finally play.

Final score: 9/10. I deduct some from a lack of research on the artists part and "Having to pay for errata", otherwise, I gots me some gun porn to go with my vehicle porn at long last.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 07:02 AM

Fantastic. They now publish errata to books hidden in other books you have to buy ...? I guess I should be happy they publish Errata to their crapbooks at all, but somehow I'm not.


Caliber-specific ammo?

Posted by: Faraday Jun 12 2011, 08:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/user/Kafkanishian

Also, I approve of more guns in shadowrun. Especially with a nice layout and lots of information on each one. I <3 gun porn.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 12 2011, 08:35 AM

Well only the last one of those wasn't spelled out in WAR, but even it was pretty easy to figure out

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 10:47 AM

Review

Ok, let's have a look at this. I disapprove of this presentation of errata, but at least it's not too expensive and come with more gear, despite the quite insulting delivery, being hidden in a pdf product like this (it's bad customer service, at the very least). Also, there are several other problems with this product.

First, check the login screen.

Is THAT the wrapup of the nameless poster plot? I sure hope not. It seems like it, though. Pity, this was just starting to get interesting. Who, why, when? Those questions will forever remain unanswered. That's a wholly unsatisfying way to wrap this up.

I'll refrain from commenting on the Texas Rangers piece, as political discussion is against the TOS. Unfortunatly, this tone prevails throughout the book. And I seriously doubt Picador is a humanis policlub / Archconservatives fangirl, so the narrative voice is way off, too.


This made me laugh, considering the hacking rules - sacrifice any security for downing friendly fire a peg. Besides, you can run an image link/gait analysis program on your internal smartlink and save gait/image profiles of friendlies, so your safety kicks in when pointing the gun at them (SR1 through 3 smartlinks had that as a standard feature, so it's not rocket science). Same effect and your unit is not instantly compromised.

Now, on to the meat of the thing. It introduces two new qualities - incompatible and vintage - that roughly do the same as the obsolescent/obsolete qualities of This Old Drone. So far so good. It also introduces a new weapons category, some new add-ons, and new rules issues. And it sneaks in an errata for an old issue.

The art ... is about 60% photomanipulations, it seems - sources seem to be wikipedia, since I felt I knoe some of those images. 40% are hand drawn, and those look decidedly space age. Style of Photomanip and lineart don't mesh well with each other - here photorealism dimmed slightly by PSP filters, there strong, comic-esque inking and almost no shading. Not a pretty mixture, though both styles work on an individual level. Also, the resolution of the images seems bugged, both in Foxit and in Adobe reader. Low resolution, especially in the background, scaled up, it seems. That's one large step down from Unfriendly Skies' artwork's quality, which only had one glaringly obvious photomanip (something I personally disapprove of, but ymmv).

The guns ... the numbers seem mostly okay on a first glance, but I'd gladly leave that to better rules lawyers than myself - missing add-ons their fluff explicitly refers to and bizarre discrepancies between caliber and classification of weapons occur, though. Lessons learned form That Old Drone? It seems not. A substantial step back from Unfriendly Skies here, too. Also, the stats for the vintage predators don't mesh with the old stats at all. Ammo capacity seems to change with age in weapons. Who'd have thought that.

Fluff ... goes towards the bizarre. There are free-selling guns in Europe and Japan now? Excuseme? Japan? The setting where half the point is the extreme firearms ban and a return to everyone wearing a tanto to fight off frequent ninjapunk attacks? Whoever wrote this seems to have little to no idea how weapons laws in countries that are not America work (and seems decidedly tea-party-esque and lets that flow much more freely than I would like). It's not like "Licenses for every piece of gear" isn't a core mechanic of SR4 SINs either, but then again, the rules have meshed badly with old rules lately anyway. Same tone as in War!, and it pisses me off in the same ways, even though not on the same magnitude. Summed up, this PDF has a general tone to it that I just find unpleasant, bizarre fluff, and sloppy rules.

More fluff issues:
- The US Navy SEALS were all killed in the fighting when the US split into UCAS and CAS. The fighting ... that all other sources say did not take place because the partition was peaceful. And their weapons disintegrated when they died, apparently. Right.
- Actually, the HK Urban Combat and the HK MP7 are one and the same weapon. Pegasus gave CGL all their added weapons for Arsenal. They should be lying somewhere on Jason's HDD. If they are gone, just send an email to Tigger to get a new file. I'm sure he still has it. So much for international coopertation, I guess. Research? Seems not a high priority at CGL.
- They used the MAC-10 in 1900? Errr ...no. Neither were action movies very prolific back then. Didn't you mean the 1990s?
- A .40 cal light pistol? Seriously? That would be more like a heavy pistol, right (like the Mk23)? Nevermind the P99 was established as heavy pistol in fiction already. Research, people. It can be done.
- The M16 hardly is the standard assault rifle of the western world. There is no standard western assault rifle.
- Whoever wrote "Chinese Communist Regime" both again introduces entirely unwelcome politcal commentary and totally omits that the PRC isn't dead, but lives on in Henan, for better or worse. Research failure and tea party meet for a rather unpleasant mix here.
- Ogre Hammer? Since when is Ares Human Nation Central (for interested authors: That's actually GENOM of Switzerland)? Ares having a strong enough racist subculture to justify calling a weapon Ogre Hammer is totally new, and should really, really infuriate the pro-Meta lobby that seemed extremly strong in the setting up to this publication, what with civil rights for everything that can spell it's name and all. Totally inconceivable, but another expression of the general, rather detestable tone of this publication.

Rules issues:
- Smartlink systems never, ever used fiberoptic cables since SR1 - and there it was a dated option. The induction pad was absolute standard ever since SR2. Declaring a smartlink of the 2060 requires a fiberoptic cable is a mind-bogglingly stupid retcon AND shows inability to do research.
- The Walther P109 fluff talks about an integrated recoil compensation, and barrel-mounted extras are banned, but there is no recoil compensation noted in the accessories.
- An all-2 commlink for weapons management? Get real. This Kyoto Upgrade Pack really ought to have been statted, at the very least, to make this even remotely viable (and I'd really like to see that IC. Optimised (6), ergonomic, one program package for everything? Even then it's practically limited to one IC in the node.
- The Ares Canadian Sportster is ridiculously underpowered compared to all other hunting rifles in Arsenal or the Core Book. Research!
- I like the idea of introducing new add-ons in sidebars next to the weapon where it was introduced. However, a table with all relevant stats for easy reference really, really should be standard in gear books again. It's not even hard to type! And handing out Errata like this is a new low.

Overall impression: Meh. Mixed feelings. It's substantially worse than recent releases like Unfriendly Skies or Spy Games. However, it's not quite as bad as War!, because apparently the munchkinism has been reined in to levels I am familiar with from the old FanPro German supplements (the H&K X is like the Ares Y, only with [raised stat] and costing d6*100 nuyen less), so it's not a total disaster like War. It delivers some good weapons and some that ... are various levels of crap. This still gets only 5/10 from me, because of the many factual errors, wonky stats, in parts bizarre artwork (re the chinese assault rifles attempts atabstract art?), the integrated hidden errata, rules issues, and the overall tone in the writing, as well as getting the shadowtalk voices all wrong (so Sunshine is a weapons nut now?).

Rating: 5/10.

Edited for a less fire-and-brimstone tone. And the thing about machine pistols. MMy bad.

Posted by: Nath Jun 12 2011, 02:27 PM

There's something I don't get here. Are Gun Heaven "machine pistols" anyway different from the corebook and Arsenal "machine pistols" (Ceska Black Scorpion, Steyr TMP, Ares Crusader, FN 5-7C and PPSK-4) ?

Posted by: Mäx Jun 12 2011, 02:42 PM

Yeh this point of his really confused me, as Machine Pistols really are an existing weapon category, not a new one.
Or did the writers really fail so hard that they introduced a new weapon category with a same name as an existing one

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 03:00 PM

and so the gnashing of teeth continues...

Still, as i have been on the devs case about fighter aircrafts for years now (i think) i guess i should accept that others will verbally flay them over firearms.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 03:08 PM

You're right. Withdrawn. Review edited accordingly.


One book was good, so it's improper to say another book from the same publisher isn't? Or what do you want to say?

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 03:19 PM

Only shows up on the art, so no big deal...

Posted by: Sengir Jun 12 2011, 03:51 PM

So the standard question, anything useful? Or just cheap equipment which might be useful for gutterpunk NPCs?

Also, I'd say the name "Ogre Hammer" was chosen but because it embodies some of the supposed qualities of its namesake. Same reason why military hardware IRL is named "Apache" or "Leopard"

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 04:08 PM

ACME Arms, should we be worried?

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 04:10 PM

Yeah, but those conventions usually don't allow anything.


As is pointed out in the article, rather not. ^_^

As for usefulness: Yes, there is useful stuff in there. It's just that it's in parts more or less abhorrent.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 12 2011, 04:41 PM

I love the full page presentation, takes me back

Mostly skimming around it, I see nothing that will become the next Slivergun, which is good. Basically, it's just more options. All in all, I give it my endorsement.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:09 PM

*Sighs* No. I'm just happy to see it for the first time in anything other than random shadowtalk about how military rounds are rare, and hunting rounds are common, with a statement of actual calibers. I think it was a 1st Ed book I was reading.
Oh yeah, that's it, work it for Daddy!
A "Machine Pistol" is a light-caliber weapon in the same style as a SMG. The difference is caliber, that's about it. It uses the Automatics skill.
I'd rather buy from a Nanoforged Non-RFID'd design from a bunch of Neo-@s than I would the Corps.

If they were hand-making the weapons, I'd be worried.
Same here, back to my days of flipping through the SSC (Still kicking myself for not buying it way back when!).

At least it's not just deckers/hackers commenting on military hardware now. And loved what FastJack had to say about the Ares Predator I!

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 05:14 PM

Poor old Hatchet. Sure loved his P1.


To be fair, there was old art that had the caliber of weapons detailed as well. But I dn't really mind it either way. Just, then I'd like to see the editor coordinate art and writing so that light pistols and heavy pistols don't both shoot S&W .40 ... of course, that requires an editor working on this.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:17 PM

Speaking for experience, herding artists is harder than herding cats. And I've done both.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 12 2011, 05:19 PM

Well thats pretty minor, compared to other art mistakes found all over these PDF only releases, like weapon mounts on vehicles that by rules have none or the picture that points out a grenade luncher for a rifle that doesn't have one.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:25 PM

OK, one more error and problem I just thought of, just dawned on me: Cased Versus Caseless Ammo.

Once again, we've had talk in fluff about it, with no crunch going behind it.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 05:33 PM

I guess it comes down to the GM being anal about tracking the runners by ballistic forensics or not.

if he is, then it becomes important. If not, then who cares?

the worst that can be done is the GM springs it on the group after a couple of sessions with no prior warning.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 05:42 PM

Pink Mohawk or Ice Cold then.

Of course, you could always use Revolvers and not have to worry about policing brass.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 12 2011, 05:46 PM

Must...keep...mouth...shut....

Posted by: Mäx Jun 12 2011, 05:50 PM

What the frack are you talking about, seriously could we maybe get a clarification to this.
MP 7 is a Vintage gun from this new realase and Urban Combat is from Arsenal, only think same about them is that their both SMG:s.

If your prefferring to what is said on the Predator 2 page, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension because it really doesn't say what you seem to think it does.
Only think said in it is that it needs a physical connection, witch the induction pad was too IIRC.
Unsuprisingly the book just gives a price for smarlink fiber optic cable, as full rules for old school style induction pad ware is little out of the cope of this book.

From reading the jackpoint comment im pretty darn sure that it's quite intentional.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 06:02 PM

Iirc, one could save on cost (both nuyen and essence) in earlier editions (when the modular smartlink implant was introduced) by forgoing the induction pads and going fiber optic for the connection.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 06:06 PM

It's a small game rifle, for varmint hunting.

In other words, Pixie Hunting. And Devil Rats.

Posted by: BookWyrm Jun 12 2011, 06:10 PM

Already added to my Wishlist on DriveThruRPG. Man, I have GOT to get some cash together, those PDFs are piling up.....

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 12 2011, 06:31 PM

Oh, screw keeping my mouth shut...it never works out for me anyway.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a gun guy. I've been a Shadowrun player since the beginning, though, and I've picked up a few things. I'm also one of the proofers on this product, and it's the most work I've done as a proofer for an SR product since I came on board in that capacity. All I'll say on most of this is, "You should have seen it before I got a hold of it." You're welcome.

Maybe, maybe not, but the art for the new guns came about because a lot of weapon props were acquired, and art prepared from those props. I don't know how functional those prop weapons were, but I know that the art was taken from an actual physical thingie.

This wasn't meant as back-door errata, really, but it was insisted upon by a couple of the proofers. Strangely enough, I was not one of them, but then (as I said) I'm not really a gun guy. My characters use anything bigger than a heavy pistol and I'm kind of at sea myself.

There were mixed feelings about the calibers, but since it's never been that big an issue, we didn't worry about it too much. I didn't, anyway.

As said before, the new weapons were scanned in, as I understand it, from actual physical things. For the most part, they didn't set me off, but I'm not the target audience for that portion of the book.

That one went through some name changes along the way.

I take some umbrage at this last bit. I wasn't the editor/developer, but I did an assload of work on this book, and got a lot of improvements made to the final product (and I can produce witnesses if needed).

Is it going to be perfect? Fuck, no. But as one of the people who worked on this...for FREE, mind you, taking time away from my kids that I'll never fucking get back to make this a better product for you lot...I can tell you that work and research WAS FUCKING DONE. Sometimes I got overruled, sometimes I missed some things, but I've had about enough of being told that we're not doing enough.

For the things that got past us, I'm sorry. But for the product you've got, that's unbelievably better than what was originally put together? You're fuckin' welcome.

My words are my own in this; I'm speaking solely for myself and not for CGL here in this post. The official word, if any, on this product will come from Jason or someone acting on behalf of the company.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 12 2011, 06:46 PM

It's pretty good that it was added(bonus point to those proofers), as it would be stupid to expect that everyone who want's this has WAR, so if it wasn't added some people would have no idea how battle rifles work.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 06:53 PM

Well it can be argued to be a back door errata mostly because War did not specify the skill of battle rifles...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 06:55 PM

Well, as one of the people chipping away and pouring salt on those wounds, thank you.

Posted by: Critias Jun 12 2011, 06:59 PM

It just made sense to me to use our latest "gun porn" book as a handy place to clarify a previous gun ruling question. Some folks see it as a reason to bitch about backdoor errata, but I'd rather have people bitch about backdoor errata than continue to not be able to use a whole class of weapons. Damned if you do share the information, damned if you don't, apparently.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 12 2011, 07:00 PM

Nope. Nameless is still around.

While they were not had on this particular issue, words about older smartlinks and the tech involved were exchanged. Many fixes were implemented. That I missed this particular issue doesn't much surprise me, for some reason, but it is a little disappointing on a personal level. C'est la guerre, I suppose.

Not gonna get into issues of authorial voice. Still got a bad taste in my mouth from that one.

How'd I miss that one?

I'm kinda responsible for that one, since it originally just said "Communist regime" without specifying which one.

Ogre's don't use hammers? How is it automatically racist to call something Ogre Hammer? Never mind, don't bother, we'll never agree on this issue.

I had a LONG talk about this one with several people.

The final text says it needs a physical connection...which can be accomplished by fiber-optic tether, or a skinlink, as specified in the Vintage quality. Induction pad falls into that category.

Once again, you're welcome.

As the text implied, that was deliberate.

Once again, speaking on my own behalf and not that of CGL.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 07:02 PM

Well there are some on this forum that is here specifically to blame Catalyst for anything, and they seemed to multiply once Catalyst hit a economic snag and had to get new content for parts of some books because of existing authors pulling their contributions. Basically, i has taken on the ugly rhetoric of US politics.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 07:06 PM

Pretty much every other gaming company releases errata for free, snce essentially they're fixing a flawed product they sold already. The pissedness comes from the feeling that CGL expects to be paid to finally grace us with working proucts. Forgive me if that doesn't exactly thrill me. Actually, it should be possible to fix all these issues with a few post-publishing editing; both battleshop and DriveThru support such a function. But that won't happen, will it? (Side note: not directed at you, Patrick).


Tiredness? Happens to me too when I write/edit long assignments.


It happens, I guess. Ideally it should not have had to be corrected, and it would certainly be possible to have less that is so bad it needs to be rewritten.


Okay, but there simply is no need nor way to do this in SR2 (it was a vintage option in SR1). It is possible in SR3 - buy smartlink components except induction pad, then use a datajack instead and router it to the components (it's its own router), but that doesn't gain you anything but style and harsher essence loss. But yeah, it says skinlink in Incompatible. Withdrawn to a degree (and btw, I'm of the opinion that it's the authors who ought to do most research, not the proofers).


And if it was called Dragonslayer you'd say dragons do slay a lot, too?


Okay, fine. I don't really get why this hunting weapon is so much easier to justify than larger-caliber ones in a world where man-eating 3 meter high horned bears with magical powers are something you are fairly likely to come across when hunting, though.


That's even worse, I agree. But why 'communist regime'? It's not like the state has no name.


And yet, the product isn't as good as it could have been. Take that as a personal insult all you want, but it doesn't take much to find out that smartlink in SR3 did not rely on fibreglass cables, or that the Ares Predators had certain ammo capacities. It's not like these are references to obscure books from way back. There, research clearly was not done. Was it an even worse product before? Maybe. Probably, even. Is it the best product it could have been? Probably not. Is it your personal fault? I don't know, and to be quite honest I don't really care. It wasn't done, it's work not done properly, and since I paid money for a flawed product I will point out where I think it has a serious quality problem.


So you expect me ( 'us') to praise you for what? That this product is just only as flawed as it is? Do you expect us to just assume this can't be done better (hint: it certainly can; even the last few CGL releases were) and give you cheery, but undeserved, praise to not offend you? Then you expect too much. Sorry you didn't get paid for this work you did. But in essence, writing the book in a presentable manner isn't what you are supposed to do anyway. It'S only 1 ct/word but usually you do get paid for that.

Posted by: Critias Jun 12 2011, 07:24 PM

There's a difference between saying "the editing could have been better" and "the editing didn't happen, obviously no one cares." In the face of someone who was heavily involved in the proofing for this book -- I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Patrick sent two dozen emails with corrections -- and who's checking onto the thread, at least in part, to just apologize for errors he missed...I can understand why Patrick's a little ticked. The guy's apologizing for the fuck-ups that made it through (and making it clear that he is, at least in part, to blame), and he's just getting criticized more because he drew attention to himself. If you can't empathize with that enough to, at the very least, understand where he's coming from, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, obviously you've got a right to be unhappy with a product, but those who worked pretty hard on the product also have a right to not be insulted square to their face about their contributions to it...or, at the least, have the same right to be "unhappy" about it back at'cha.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 12 2011, 07:36 PM

Agreed 100%.

Patrick's been pretty much fantastic when he shows up on these boards to share his insight. I -still- use the stats from the 'infected heights and weights' that got cut a while ago.

For what its worth, thanks for chipping in your 2 yen.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 07:37 PM

I didn't see his second post writing mine and edited accordingly (more or less).

And I don't blame him for any of this. He's a proof reader, those who are supposed to check for spelling, style, and catch errors the editor in charge and writers missed. Last line of defense, so to speak, not first line. Writing the book is not his job. That's where I see a problem, not in proofing.

That he did have to do as much as he did is a symptom of the problem I am angry about - that the writers and the person overseeing the process (editor? developer?) of writing this and integrating it into the line seem to have done a job that's not as good as it could be, to be polite.

Posted by: Tycho Jun 12 2011, 07:45 PM

I am amazed that people don't learn from the past...
Don't work for free, it's just unprofessional! Especially if you employer has a history like CGL.

And since there is talk of putting these pdfs together for a book, everybody who wrote something should consider asking for more money, because it seems CGL is screwing you over again. Considering you get paid less for pdf-releases than books. Just saying...

cya
Tycho

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jun 12 2011, 08:02 PM

As a former writer, proofer, and playtester for SR, I have to side with Critias and Patrick on this one. There are books that are very poorly done and in those cases I don't hold back on my criticisms, but small errors get through and that just happens. Small errors don't ruin a book and shouldn't cast a black mark on the writers, developers, or proofers. I'm not saying reviewers shouldn't mention the little things, but there should be some perspective on it. And it should be noted that little mistakes get through all the time in much bigger publications with writers and editors that are paid a lot more money and the industry generally accepts that fact (and releases later editions).

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 12 2011, 08:12 PM

Great ghost on a pogo stick I wonder what happen if some of the people who spend all their time complaining about the game got together and wrote the perfect RPG.

I'm just going to ignore Hermit going forward, I havn't seen him write anything positive in months, if ever. There's just no value there any more.

On to actual productive parts of discussion. I haven't bought the book yet, i plan on it, but don't yet have the time. On the whole though I support any SSC style posting and more gun prons. Further I would rather a whole book of subpar guns then a book of subpar guns and one supergun, the system just doesn't get granular to go into the trade offs and personal preferences. Hell SR guns don't even model recoil differently outside of slapping recoil negation on a few things. Do you really want to track calibers?

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 08:18 PM

I know that. It's just, I don't see these issues as small. I know errors happen and some always get through in every published work. I noticed a couple things off in Blut und Spiele, for instance, and that didn't detract from me pretty much gushing over it. Same with SRM 04-00. It's not the case here.


Awwww. I'm hurt. Want cheese with your whine? (also, for the record: SRM 04-00 AAR, Spy Games).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 12 2011, 08:25 PM

Can I just say, thank god for 'backdoor' errata? Please, give us more such errata. Any medium is acceptable for fixed rules.

Ogre Hammer means ogre's hammer, to me. Possibly 'big hammer'. Who'd hammer an ogre? These are such ridiculous nitpicks.

Posted by: Malbur Jun 12 2011, 08:57 PM

I was going to say: I saw that more as "this is a hammer that ogres use. AKA: It will mess your day up." just going off the name. I did not purchase the book and as a result have no idea what its stats or anything are.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 12 2011, 08:58 PM

Oh, I know. I was one of those authors who held up Running Wild back in the day.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 09:00 PM

While not perfect, that book had more good than bad. The downward spiral really hit rock bottom with War.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 12 2011, 09:10 PM

They do pay me. They pay me for writing. Actually, now I think about it, it's not altogether free. I do get product for my proofing gigs.

And I'm only ever going to say this once: You don't know me. You've never met me. You don't know my ethics or anything else about me beyond what you can glean here. You have exactly ZERO right to question my professionalism in any endeavor.

You ever want to question my integrity or professionalism, you better damn well have a leg to stand on. As it is, you don't, and I'll thank you to shut up about things you don't have a clue about.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 12 2011, 09:22 PM

While I don't understand the issues people had with the battle rifle (ok,maybe the range issue but what was it going to use other than automatics? I don't recall any full auto weapons that use long arms) you're leaving out the option of actually publishing errata that one doesn't need to pay for. If a company isn't going to publish errata then they need to publish books that don't need errata.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 12 2011, 09:37 PM

There are lots of folks working for "free". Lots of smart folks who love the product and have loved it forever. I call that a good thing.

Back to the pdf:

I simply love it. It fills a lot of gaps in weapon choices, and it is just a fun read. The art is perfect for the style, I totally dig the little pointers describing the guns anatomy.
You always have the one dude who wants to come to the table with a 1911 (me) and now there are stats for it.

My biggest problems with it is I want more. Also, a table in the back would rock, but life goes on.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 12 2011, 09:45 PM

Well, I did specify that it wasn't a major issue.

There appears to be at least two sets of weapon artwork in the PDF. One set appears to be edited photos of weapons. These are more or less fine from a mechanical point of view.

The other is clearly much more a drawn style of artwork. (Some of it pretty darn outlandish looking - seems to suffer from "It's from the FUTURE! It must have weird bits all over it and have bizarre shapes!")

The second set is where I was seeing mechanical problems, ranging from "How the heck does the ammo actually get from the magazine to the chamber?" to "If the magazine is all the way in the back of the weapon, I mean ALL the way, where is the bolt?". Nevermind that twin magazines in line on in front of the other is just silly.

Again, this is more of a pet peeve. As far as game rules the PDF seems to be fine, and I'll probably use it for my home games.

As far as Paid vs Not Paid, it's an old adage. Unless you're doing it for charity, never do work for free that you could be getting paid for. It has nothing to do with the quality of your work or your professionalism. In fact, some folks will say that if you do it for free you are DEVALUING your own work - if you're good enough to get published, you're good enough to get paid for it, and if people get the idea that you'll accept less, they'll give you less.

That said, I have done published writing and artwork for free in the past, so clearly I don't completely believe in that old adage myself.




-k

Posted by: Critias Jun 12 2011, 10:53 PM

Gotta love it. When proofreading lets through stuff like War!, folks pitch a fit and ragequit the game, insisting the current batch of "scabs" don't care about or understand Shadowrun and can't be bothered to edit documents. When freelancers step up to do extra proofreading and get more eyes on each outbound document, we get ridiculed and preached at for being idiots who work for free.

You dance with who brung ya. If the way we can get out Spy Games instead of War! is to take a more active role and "work for free," do you really blame us? Which would you prefer, we writers stubbornly refuse to communicate and coordinate with each other, don't check over one another's work, and let out slipshod product that's edited by folks with a whole ton of stuff on their plates? Because I, for one, would rather have my name on a product I've read over and am proud of, than the alternative. They can't all be solo products. When they're not, it's in our own best interest to work together, communicate, proofread for one another, and put out a book with the fewest errors we can.

If that makes us idiots for working for free, fine. I'd rather work for free than have my name on a shitty book, myself.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 12 2011, 11:18 PM

Usually a errata shows up near a new print run. And right now i think CGL is focusing on printing new books to ensure a positive revenue flow.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 12 2011, 11:27 PM

CGL needs to publish errata for the books that are already out before they publish more books that need errata.

Posted by: hermit Jun 12 2011, 11:34 PM

What's more, they should crosscheck rules before making up new rules, and playtest rules they make.

Much of my current problems with their product seem to stem from the drive to publish fast, much and often to turn a quick buck, resulting in several products being released that just could use more polishing.

Yeah, I know, that's nagging again, and totally not positive ... but you know what? I wouldn't die if Gun Heaven had spent a few more weeks in the proofing and editing stage, because that'd mean most of the problems I have with it might have been caught.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 12 2011, 11:47 PM

Bubba the Love Troll, who else?

And you know he'll be hammerin' all night long, baby!I'm with Squinky on this. Especially as when I first tried to run the game someone wanted a Beretta M92, because that was his favorite pistol. (Me, I'm a John Browning fanboy, and grok the Colt M1911 and Browning M1935 "Hi-Power". Which is why one of my characters carries an Ultra-Power, BTW. And has a Titanium-Gold Alloy Plated 150th Anniversary Edition M1911A1 on his mantel.). It's actually the M1991 that there are stats for, but aside from some minor design changes to make it more ergonomic, it's a 1911.

Would I love more, hells yes! Vintage firearms are certainly still out there. (There are some militaries using the SMLE No. 4 as a main longarm after all, and that model going on 65-years old now! Older if you include the SMLE Mk.3/No.1!), and newer weapons are certainly always welcome. I liked the inclusion of "Designed For Civilian Home And Personal Defense" firearms, I just wish that the art for them had been... Well, yeah. But it's worth the US$8 I'll have to pay for later!

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 12:07 AM

That heavily depend on their economics, sadly. Sale of new books provide direct revenue, while erratas at best provide indirect revenue via positive customer relations.

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 12:12 AM

Quantity versus quality, short-term profit with long-term damage to the product versus long-term sustainable (but probably narrower) profit margins.

Posted by: naga-nuyen Jun 13 2011, 12:15 AM

Patrick Goodman, Critias and anyone else that works on these great products thank you. For one thing it gives a little crunch if I want to add Grandpa Street Sam to my world. I am also glad to see clarification on the Battle rifles. Our large gaming group in Seattle is taking all these recent publications and really throwing them in the grinder; it has made our gaming world better with your contributions. Again thank you.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 12:17 AM

Yeah, but it really wouldn't take longer then an hour to release errata for the most glaring problems, it's not like the erratas have to fix all the mistakes at once.
Seriously releasing a PDF titled WAR_errata_1.01 that says:
P.154 Battle Rifles
Add the following sentence to the description: “The Battle Rifle requires the Automatics skill to use effectively"
Should take at max 5 minutes

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 12:19 AM

I think there's more wrong with War! than just battle rifles. It'd take more than five minutes for it.

Even the PDFs have their issues (Remember the acceleration issue with This Old Drone?). But, well, let's get off that topic and complain about the new guns and how the old guns from 1st Edition were better.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 12:22 AM

Thats why the file name had a version number 1.01

And to complain about guns, i do have to question why anyone would ever take Steyr Minotaur Antimaterial
Rifle over a Barret 121, considering that it's not better in anyway and is more expensive.
Also the Ogre Hammer not having an internal smartlink while costing 38K is pretty sad.

On an other front, HK MP-7 equip with a Red Dot Sight is challenging P93 as my SMG of choice.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 12:42 AM

Marketing. Availability. Special deals with Steyr that includes their assault rifle line that Barret doesn't have (For Security/Government/Military contracts.). A hatred of Barret for some reason?

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 13 2011, 12:50 AM

38k? Wow. That's pricey. It sounds like it also suffers from the Gauss Rifle Laser Sight syndrome as well.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 13 2011, 12:51 AM

And negative customer relations provide negative revenue when customers decide they've had enough of this shit and play something else where any errata are dealt with promptly instead of buying new books that increasingly screw up the system due to error that haven't been fixed for years. Hell, a lot of the needed errata is just laying around in German waiting for someone to translate it from what I understand.

Errata: Line 3 should read "due to errors that haven't been fixed for years.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 01:05 AM

Not sure about that. One may have to dig up the notes, or get hold of the person that wrote the chapter and try and figure out what the idea was. Then formulate a change that carries the idea across in a clear way. I got a book here that contains a chapter on the early days of M:tG, and it mentions a card that one player claimed gave him a instant win on playing. The creators go "not possible!" but then investigate the wording more carefully. I think the card have 3-4 revisions before they where reasonably sure the majority of players would get the intention of the card.

Sometimes it is straight forward, sometimes it is not. But all the time someone has to sit down and organize the corrections. As such, they are more likely to appear when there is a new print run to be done. Hell, the pdf covering the SR4 to SR4A changes is still "preliminary". Have there been new print runs of SR4A?

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 01:11 AM

Not sure about the german stuff. German editions have a history of adding and changing things for the hell of it.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 01:13 AM

Sadly even thats not happening, we still don't have an errata for RC, but as far as i have understood from few posters, there is a new printing of RC that has errata in it

Well it does come with an internal 6/6/6/6 commlink.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 13 2011, 02:34 AM

In that case, too cheap! Hehe.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 13 2011, 03:16 AM

Nobody's pitching a fit or ridiculing here. Seriously, ya'll need to take a step back an realize not everything is an attack. Folks might have criticisms about the product, but I don't see anyone earnestly attacking any writers or editors on a personal basis.

"Never work for free" is an old aphorism. I mean really old. It means, really, to know your own self-worth, and never let anyone take advantage of you by paying you less than you are worth. It's generally given as friendly advice, or in jest. I can't ever think when it would be used as an attack. Well, I recall a video of Harlan Ellison ranting on the subject pretty angrily, but he's known as a bit of an ass, so that might not be the best example.

It's also not always true, but it's not a bad thing to keep in mind. People often don't realize what they're worth, and accept less than they deserve.



-k

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 13 2011, 03:38 AM

The intent was, in fact, "Geez, this is a big fucking gun!" It was orriginally a Trollhammer, but someone pointed out that there was already a motorcycle named that and the decision was thus made to change its moniker.

As I said elsewhere...what? Ogres don't use hammers?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 13 2011, 03:41 AM

We're not leaving it out, we just haven't finished that battle. It's ongoing, I assure you.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 13 2011, 03:52 AM

Thats not right at all.

Augmentation errata exists.(1.32, the german guys have it. Even dumpshock has it leaked somewhere) Book was published in 2008, wasn't it?
RC errata exists. Adam was on the board a while ago, confirming it got sent off to the printers for the next printing.

It exists. Its out there. Catalyst is sitting on it. Pegasus has it in german. Even the printers have it.
And the customers don't. The books have been out for how long now? 5 years?


I don't even know whats going on. I'd -like- to, but I suspect the new management got off on the wrong foot during the coleman scandal, and a combination of dumpshock whiners driving the point home whenever they can, not trusting the old guard, and being busy making actual product(the quality of which is debatable), and hiring replacement staff are responsible for the current situation.



What actually IS going on with that battle? If, you know, you're allowed/able/willing to say.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 13 2011, 03:55 AM

Believe it or not, Hermit, but we're largely on the same side here. I don't make the schedule, so I'm rather limited on what I can do. I may or may not be limiting my ability to do more by having this conversation in the first place, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.

I do what I can in the time I'm given. It's all I can do.

I'm not saying you have to like it that a less-than-stellar product made it out, and I know you're not blaming me for things. I'm likewise not saying that anyone has to bow and scrape before me, or anything like that. I'm not in this for glory, I'm in this because I love the game and am trying to keep it the game I love. Basically, I'm trying to say that there's no hard feelings on my part; I shouldn't take it personally, despite the amount of time I've got invested in this game in general, and this particular product in general.

I like professional credits I can slap on my CV, but I was thinking I was going to have them take my name off this one at the beginning of the process. If it hadn't been vastly improved by release time, I would have had my name taken off. I take my reputation...in this industry, in this forum, in this game...very seriously. You see my name on something, good or bad, I just want you to know that I fought for that product. I fought for this one. I'm not saying that you have to like it, but a lot of you have known me for a lot of years, and you should know the kind of shit I've dealt with as a writer for this game.

I might let you down here and there, but I'm not doing it without a fight.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jun 13 2011, 03:57 AM

Don't have a lot to show for it right this second, but the need for errata is something that is known. Soon as I have something more positive, I'll let you guys know.

Posted by: MYST1C Jun 13 2011, 11:26 AM

It's a problem with fiction-vs-reality.
The Urban Combat's full name – as stated in the book it was introduced in, 1992's Deutschland in den Schatten – is Heckler & Koch MP7z "Urban Combat".
How should they've known that 10 years later HK would actually produce an Uzi-style SMG then adopted by German military as "MP7"? Of course, the real-world MP7 neither has an integral silencer nor is it built from scanner-defeating ceramics...

A somewhat related problem arose when SR3's Cannon Companion was published in Germany: This book presented a "Steyr TMP" as a machine pistol – unfortunately, an earlier German SR2 sourcebook set in Austria had already contained a Steyr TMP as an SMG...
(IRL Steyr doesn't even manufacture the TMP anymore – blueprints and manufacturing rights were sold to Swiss company Brüger & Thomet which now sells this gun as "B&T MP9".)

Posted by: MYST1C Jun 13 2011, 11:31 AM

In the past, yes. With SR4 and Pegasus as the German licensee emphasis is put on trans-atlantic compatibility. All changes and additions (or omissions) made in German books are communicated to and approved by CGL!

That's why it's so hard to grasp just why CGL doesn't publish the errata they have – after all it's them who give these errata to Pegasus for inclusion in our translations...

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 12:36 PM

And uses the same name. And is mentioned in an American release ... but admittedly, a bunch of lists of this stuff would probably help research. Well, they're in German (mostly), and I'm not going to translate them, but fwiw, http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QHOOLB46. Semi-complete and almost completely sourced. It includes stuff from nearly all SR publications to date, including German- and French-only sources, and novels, again including german-specific novels.


Releasing Errata would in my opinion go a long way to restore trust in CGL's dedication to the line (other than to make a buck to rid themselves of their debts). So I hope this is a fight you'll win.


I don't doubt that, and from what you wrote here, I'm afraid the original file was about as bad as War's gear section, so I guess you mademuch of a difference already. The pdf isn't totally worthless or anything, it just could have needed a round of polishing and some research, like into the MP7 / Urban Combat matter.

BTW, were those replicas really bought for the PDF?

Posted by: Fatum Jun 13 2011, 02:25 PM

AK-112 features a "retreating stage of the Euro-Wars" in its description. I yearn for more info on that "retreating stage", minding that the Euro-War was stopped abruptly after the Nightwraith strike, the fronts having grind to a stalemate.
Or is it the second Euro-War they mean? I can hardly remember any AK-armed forces retreating, as well, minding that the Red Army stopped the Jihad at Caucasus...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 03:35 PM

More than (Soviet/Non-Soviet) Russia used the Kalashnikov. And even if the fronts ground to a stalemate, there would still be some areas that were contested and fought over, by the Politicos if by no one else. Border Skirmishes and the like were probably very common and might be what is being refereed to.

Also, another thing I like about the book is the fact that they're admitting there are different calibers. I just wish I knew what modern ones were used in the 6^th world. But, again, that's me. Some of the members of my group think that a "Nine" is an actual type of pistol. (As in a make and model.).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 03:57 PM

Oh can it about the calibers already!

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 04:04 PM

Hey, it was a major part of the AK-112 and someone else brought that up.

Logistics of situations is something that rears it's ugly head in my mind quite often, actually, and I've been having a major problem of a time ensuring that all my emergency supplies use the same battery types. (For the times I'm too tired to use the Crank-Power Generator.).

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 04:21 PM

.40 s&w, 6mm Gyrojet Plus, 9mm 8AA caseless, 10 x 30 mm Full Metal Jacket Hi-Ex, 10 mm DPU caseless, 40mm HE Ammunition, 9 x 19 mm, 30 mm, 9mm Hollowpoint, 5,56 mm

Those are about what was mentioned in canon to this day. Having little idea of actual weapons and caliber, I trust you can make more of this than I do.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 04:38 PM

.40 S&W is a variant of 10mm Automatic that Smith & Wesson put out to try and bridge the gap between the 9mm Parabellum and the .45 ACP (Range and recoil versus brute man stopping power.).

6mm Gyrojet is a rocket bullet. They had these IRL in the... 1960s I think. A lot larger caliber IRL, and was part of the cause that made legalizing rounds to only be a half-inch and no more.

9mm 8AA Caseless sounds like a type of caseless ammo, with 8AA meaning either the type of warhead or the shape and type of charge.

10 X 30mm Full Metal Jacket Hi-Ex sounds like a really powerful assault rifle or medium machine gun ammo. Maybe even a "Light" heavy machine gun.

10mm DPU caseless is 10mm Caseless (The Ares Predator caliber, as shows in SR4 BBB's image), with a Depleated Uranium Warhead.

40mm HE Ammunition is likely 40mm Launched Grenades, or a 40mm Light Cannon Round (IE: Panther Assault Cannon.).

9X19mm is one of the names for 9mm Parabellum (AKA: Luger), which is the most common pistol caliber found IRL in the Western World.

30mm might be a launched grenade or another light cannon round (IE: Panther Assault Cannon again.). The CIWS round, perhaps?

9mm Hollowpoint could be any of the various 9mm calibers out there, with a hollowpoint warhead (Bullet.).

5.56mm is likely 5.56mm NATO, the standard light rifle caliber of the Western World, and starting to gain common usage in hunting as well. (IIRC, A civilian version is out called the .223, which is the same style, but uses a lighter charge and cheaper brass.).

And it's likely well before this point that Hermit has gone, "Is he done yet? Can he shut up? Please?"

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 13 2011, 04:56 PM

Not just hermit.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 13 2011, 05:24 PM

Actually, Patrick, I'd like to give you some credit.

"the weapon was a favorite in
the ancient films of the late 1900s"

That is actually correct and does not need to be changed to 1990s. Besides, it was produced in 1970, I'm sure there were some movies in the 80s that featured them as well.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 13 2011, 05:54 PM

FWIW, to me the MAC-10 always seemed more of an 80's action movie weapon. Hence the Ingram Smartgun in SR1. The earliest movie featuring the MAC-10 that I'm aware of is McQ (1974).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 05:57 PM

What, the Picador quote? And i thought the Apple faithful was nuts...

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 13 2011, 05:58 PM

The ingram is an SMG, however, that stylistically resembles a cross between the MAC and the Uzi.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 13 2011, 06:00 PM

Is it just me or did the vintage guns actually look cooler than the high-tech additions. Most of the sci-fi weapons seemed not very ergonomic, not very pretty and had odd shapes and pointy bits.

For a gun porn book having ugly guns just seems wrong

Anyway I'm not sure that game system is granular enough to really get into calibers in terms of damage and ranges. I mean if the differentiation between SMGs and Assault Rifles is 1P, -1 AP and different range bands I'm not sure that there is a ton of room to differentiate various assault rifles based upon whether they use 5.56mm or 6.8mm or 7.62mm.

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 06:04 PM

No, it's actually quite interesting (depleted uranium, oh my! I guess this is anti-vehicleammo?). Those figures don't tell me much aside from "30mm must be some big gun. I checked, it's indeed a big gun, the Altmayr SP, a shotgun that supposedly can alo fire microgrenades (yes, wtf).

Most calibers are, I think, from art. I also have a number of ammo types that are just described as "SABOT ammo - high energy flechette ammunition" or something like that, but those have no caliber, going by Shadowrun's assumption of Duke Nukem physics.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 13 2011, 06:10 PM

I'm not sure about that. The Ingram Smartgun picture I'mfamiliar with is almost the same as a MAC-10 with a silencer/barrel shroud, except for the thingy added in front of the trigger guard (the smartlink?) and the charging knob having that weird extension down the side of the receiver.




Well, that's probably because the vintage guns are actual guns, not fancy futuristic illustrations. I guess most RPG illustrators aren't firearms engineers or gunsmiths. So a picture of a real firearm or one based on a real firearm will almost always look more gun-like.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 13 2011, 06:10 PM

Ok, who of those did the retreating?

Yeah, border skirmishes is one thing, retreating is another altogether.

Next thing they say is not all assault rifle rounds are interchangeable. :\

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 13 2011, 06:20 PM

According to the Bloodhawk's fluff a large individual can use it as an improvised weapon. Since that's called out as a design feature, shouldn't it have melee hardening? Otherwise it's not saying much of anything at all, any gun can be used as an improvised weapon to pistol whip someone it's just the ones with melee hardening don't get damaged or accidentally go off when you do.

Also, the Ultimax 150 could have used information on the Kyoto Upgrade package mentioned by Picador. Looks like there was plenty of room left on that page right across from the info on the standard comlink.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 06:43 PM

Actually you brought up the AK-112, and thus I went off on my usual rant. You only have yourself to blame.
Actually, they do think that. And, for once, are right. But that's only because of the "Common" knowledge of the M-16 and the AK-47, and the major differences between them. One major thing being the difference in the round they use (5.56mm NATO versus 7.62mm Soviet.).

I have, however, had to educate them on a few other points, such as not all magazines working with other rifles. STANAG 4179 helped with that with NATO (And there are adapters and modifications for those that aren't), and the Soviets did it just by having a really good Assault Rifle that everyone and their dog copied.

After the Megas got into play, however, I see both of those items falling by the wayside damned quick, along with a return of "Everyone having their own ammunition variety" that happened pre-NATO/Warsaw Pact. Also, I'm not entirely sure that the AK-117 and the M22/23 magazines are compatible, despite using the same caliber.

There were some weird and wonderful ammunition back in the day, when half the world was Metric and the other half was Imperial, unlike today where there's only backwards and uneducated holdouts that use the Imperial system.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 06:56 PM

Nice to feel the love on the forums. Wow, someone actually interested in my ranting/educating. (I think the A-10 "Warthog"'s main gun is 30mm as well.).

Depleted Uranium Tipped Rounds are Armour Defeating Ammunition ("Armour-Piercing", in other words) that can almost do the "Hollywood Armour Piercing" that gun nuts like myself leave shaking our heads. It's used in tank rounds, where they're nicknamed "The Silver Bullet". I'm not entirely sure, but it might be used in smaller calibers as well. (As most of the forces that use these rounds face opponents that don't use body armour as standard issue, that might not be as likely. But, as I constantly say, I'm just a civvie puke.).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 06:57 PM

When did i mention the AK-112? I really hope your not confusing me with Hermit right now.

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 07:45 PM

When did i mention the AK-112? I guess your confusing me with Fatum right now.

Huh. Thanks. Gonna keep that in mind, since I play an ex military rigger. Also, DU rounds for handguns should have a more potent charge, right? Because the warhead is thatmuch heavier? Can normal weapons (real ones) even handle such scaled up ammo without exploding like a softair you try to fire live ammo with?


Used to think that 19X0s refers to the decade beginning with X, whereas 20th century refers to the century. At least that seems much more common than "the 1900s" for a whole century.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 13 2011, 07:50 PM

Compare to 1700s, 1800s.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 08:14 PM

Heh, just noticed that Red Dot Sight has no mention of being incompatible with Laser Sight, meaning you can use those 2 to get +2 dicepool bnus for shooting, negating the need for a smartlink

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 08:28 PM

Well. On one hand, that's kinda what it does today, right? On the other hand, *sigh*.

Does it say it's incompatible with scopes or smartlink?

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 13 2011, 08:29 PM

That's interesting. It makes all those guns with innate laser sights better. Smartlinks are still nice for the sensor channel(s), but you have to weigh that with the hoop you have to jump to make it unhackable. I'm not sure how I feel about it overall till I get a better look.

Edit- I miss Raygun. He'll be an interesting addition to this discussion

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 13 2011, 08:30 PM

Let's just assume it's an error. Smartlinks are better anyway.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 13 2011, 08:31 PM

You can't combine sights to get the benefits of both. Same way you can't use laser sight with a smartgun system.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jun 13 2011, 08:42 PM

You could use DU for smaller bullets, like, say, rifle bullets and it would have the same effect as a tungsten bullet, with the added feature that DU can set fuel tanks on fire if hitting properly.
And really, if are going to use DU to make bullets, it is cheaper use it on bigger bullets and tungsten or other REALLY-REALLY-HEAVY metal on smaller bullets.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 08:54 PM

Only way i can interpret that "interesting" is as "popcorn, anyone?"...

Posted by: sabs Jun 13 2011, 08:57 PM

I'm confused
what's the difference between Red Dot Targeting, and Laser sight?

Posted by: Critias Jun 13 2011, 09:01 PM

Not a whole heck of a lot.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 09:03 PM

It's only tipped with Depleted Uranium, not completely made of it (Expensive bullet!), so the additional charge wouldn't be that much. Probably not even much more than the "+P" (Overpressure ammunition) made today which can be used by weapons safely as long as they're in good condition. (And if you're using a weapon in bad condition, you deserve to lose a few fingers. Take care of your gear, people!).

Honestly, they probably have the same stats as APDS without the discarding sabot nature, or are, quite possibly, the Anti-Vehicular ammo already referenced. (Which would make sense, as they'd "over-penetrate biological targets", or just make a little hole in the person rather than "Small hole in front, BIG hole in back", in other words.).
IIRC, Fuel tanks, usually, are made of a non-sparking metal (Well, on Civilian Vehicles they are. Amour Plate, I'm not so sure on.). Of course, you can solve that problem by adding in a few tracers with those DU Rounds.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I know there's Steel-jacketed rounds, how about Titanium-jacketed Rounds?

Posted by: sabs Jun 13 2011, 09:03 PM

I mean, why are they different? Laser sight, shoots a red laser at where the gun is aiming, showing you with a little red dot.

How is that different than this new Red Dot Sight?>

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 09:09 PM

A Laser Sight shoots out a laser that hits a target and puts a little red light on it where the weapon has been sighted in on. This is obvious to the target if he spots it, and smoke will allow someone to trace the laser back to it's source.

A Red Dot Sight is a small piece of glass (Or something else, Transparent Aluminum anyone?) that has a Red Dot superimposed on it where the weapon is sighted in on. It is not hitting anything but the glass, and cannot be seen by anyone unless they're looking right at the weapon itself from the front or back.

Rules wise in Shadowrun, no difference. Fluff and intelligence wise, a lot. From my understanding, red dots have supplanted laser sights for a lot of modern equipped forces, but laser sights might be funneling down to second-rate (But still capable of maintaining high-tech equipment) forces. And, of course, Civilians. That said, a lot of folks still swear by (Or at) Iron Sights.

Posted by: MYST1C Jun 13 2011, 09:09 PM

A laser sight projects a (red) laser dot onto the target. Anybody (including the target) can see this dot. In a dusty or misty environment the laser beam itself can become visible through scattering.

A red dot sight (aka aimpoint) is just an optic with an internally projected aiming dot or reticle. Nothing is projected to the outside and only the user of the sight sees the red dot.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 09:19 PM

No, the reason you don't get a benefit from both laser sight and smartlink is that the rules say you don't.

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 09:20 PM

Transparex, heretic.

And there we have the advantage of the smartlink versus the laser sight/red dot sight combo: the smartlink doesn't warn the target. If that combo is even legal, which I would rule it not to be because putting a red dot where your sight puts a red dot is kinda redundant and adds no new information.

Posted by: Nath Jun 13 2011, 09:21 PM

"Laser sight" is a laser projecting a red (or green, or infrared) dot on the target (or above or below it, depending on the range). "Red dot sight" a diode projecting a red (or green) dot on a sight.

At long range, you lose the benefit of a laser sight because the dot is too far away to be seen (unless using magnification at the same time, of course). Also, if the enemy is using night vision equipment (or is a metahuman...), the laser sight becomes a flashy beam telling where you are and what you're aiming at (or the other way round). Red dot sight, on the other hand cannot be used in all firing positions (though some people would tell you they work in all 'correct' firing positions), and lacks the cool, movie-style, intimidating factor.

By the rules, it's still going to provide +X to your shooting dice pool.

EDIT: aw, too slow.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 09:22 PM

Well you can make the second dot green or some other color too

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 09:25 PM

That reminds me what I wanted to do, make up stats for an Infrared Laser Sight for Dwarves and Trolls (And folks that have had their eyes done.). Be a fairly niche market, but a profitable one, I bet.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 09:49 PM

I don't know about niche, considering you can get those IRL and we don't even have any people with that kind of vision without using goggles.

Posted by: Vuron Jun 13 2011, 09:51 PM

IIRC, Steel-jacketed bullets are actually relatively soft because a) you don't want to have excessive wear on the barrel and b) essentially you want the rifling of the barrel to cause the bullet to spin thus aiding it in ballistic flight. If the bullet is to hard it wouldn't spin correctly (see pre-rifled guns) and/or would shred the barrel due to excessive wear and tear. I imagine misfires would be even more problematic.

DU rounds or Tungsten Rounds are typically used as the penetrator of large anti-vehicular weaponry (20mm+). I'm not sure that it would be possible to scale down DU to anti-personnel purposes (or even that it would be advantageous). Factor in the health concerns about DU and tungsten ammo and I'm not sure that DU should be included outside of vehicular weaponry ( GAU-8 Avenger Chain Guns for example). Assault Cannons would be the other likely candidate.

Posted by: hermit Jun 13 2011, 09:51 PM

I always assumed you could buy your laser sight with any reasonable frequency off the shelf. Damn, I have an SR3 character who has UV view in his ZeissEyes just because he always uses this light for this laser sight.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 10:01 PM

OK, that makes even better sense then.

Actually, the Vampir system developed during WWII comes to mind. It was a IR Sniper System for nighttime shooting.

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 13 2011, 10:08 PM

What? Yes it does.

They come with a laser range finder for reason. Thats because it works exactly like a laser sight, but also has a camera.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 13 2011, 10:15 PM

Excpt there's really no reason what so ever for the laser range finder to use a visible spectrum.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 13 2011, 10:22 PM

Visible is such an optional phrase with cybernetics...

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 13 2011, 10:27 PM

I seem to recall a sniper scope that used laser to calculate compensation for wind.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 14 2011, 01:23 AM

In a world with Smartlinks, there is little actual use for either red dot sights or laser sights.

All three put a dot, from the user's point of view, onto the target.

Only the Smartlink can inherently use this information in a networked data-rich manner, whereas the other two are... dots. That's it.




-k

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 02:56 AM

On the flipside, Smartguns can now be hacked. Before, they were major cybernetic implants (Or goofy-looking goggles connected by a cable.).

My Accountant From Hell refuses to use them due to this liability.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 14 2011, 03:00 AM

It's pretty trivial to hackproof them, your characters' little eccentricities aside. If you don't want the tacnet/etc. features, it's even more secure.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 03:39 AM

True, but it's a nice touch to the character. And he's more than a little eccentric.

Trivial? Maybe. Good if you're a Hacker, have a Hacker in your crew, or one as a Contact. Otherwise, not so much. Hard to keep up to date if you don't have the skills and interests to keep them up-to-date, unless, of course you're trusting legit programs. (Poor fools!). Skinlink (Ick!) and Datacable (Also in this book, thank you!!!) are good alternatives.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 14 2011, 03:46 AM

Skinlink is a given, but of course fiber cables have been always been available in the core book (though not priced: it's 5¥/m in Unwired). But how could you ever have a team without a hacker?

Anyway… the point is that no character should have to avoid smartlink for practical reasons. Worst case, you run it as a direct, closed loop from gun to eyes/trodes. I guess you could avoid it because you're a luddite, though, or suffer simsense vertigo or something.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 03:58 AM

The information on Smartgun Links and Datacables are in Gun Heaven.

He had a Smartgun hacked when the first wireless ones came out, and it was the first time he tried using one. He's had an aversion to them ever since, and is a very stubborn man in a lot of ways. (To be fair, that's how a wageslave of an accountant like him lived through an assassination attempt.).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 14 2011, 04:04 AM

I understand that this book has something about smartguns and datacables. I'm saying that SR4 has *always* had the option of fiber links for *all* electronics, so unless these datacables are something different, they're not new.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 04:16 AM

So we're arguing about agreeing. Gotcha.

Posted by: hermit Jun 14 2011, 06:51 AM

Just as any cyberware if you're extremly stupid and actually allow wireless on it (even if you feel that having your gun jerk through the room by propelling it with recoil due to you firing it remotely, route that through your - decently secured commlink). I never understood where the advantages of wireless items in a PAN are. All the PAN needs is one bottleneck that does the communicating for them. Which, btw, rules out the renraku type 78b, nominee for 'crappiest gun accessoire ever'.


A laser rangefinder in *some* spectrum, yes, but not in one where you have totake into account that it's supposed to actually be visible. Far IR would suffice there.


Well, the text says:
So it basically is a dedicated smartlink cable that, for being dedicated, costs ten times what an ordinary smartlink cable should cost (it's possibly the brand name Smartlink, which should be copyrighted to Ares, going by SR1 fluff).

Posted by: Bull Jun 14 2011, 07:42 AM

I can buy "loose" Cat5 Cable by the foot for a lot cheaper than I can buy a LAN Cable, which is the same damn thing but has the connectors on each end.

That, and being marketed as a "dedicated Smartlink Fiber Optic Cable" are the only explanations I have though. *shrug* Then again, I personally think much of Unwired is kinda, well, crap, and not well thought out in places. *shrug* Of course, I have severe issues with hackers, the way wireless is set up, and that whole thing anyway.

Bull

Posted by: hermit Jun 14 2011, 07:53 AM

I agree with everything here. Especially the part with how wireless is set up.

Posted by: Sengir Jun 14 2011, 10:03 AM

As written it does not make much sense, but it could easily be explained as the "dedicated" cable being tougher than a standard FO cable, with dust-proof plugs and capable of being used as a lanyard.

RE Tungsten rounds for small arms, the US Army actually did develop both 7.62 and 5.56 mm rounds with a Tungsten Carbide core...although apparently these rounds don't see much use, or have been decommissioned altogether.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 14 2011, 01:07 PM

I find myself wondering if someone misunderstood the rules regarding the "additional clip" modification...

Posted by: Hagga Jun 14 2011, 01:57 PM

I would kill for some additional laser weapons.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 02:41 PM

Probably because there isn't much in the way of OpForces that the US Army faces that use body armor. Or even really decent armoured vehicles.

From my understanding at least. Again, never been to the sandbox, someone confirm or deny, or cannot confirm or deny and state so?
Ares is killing many test subjects in Africa to bring you just such items! But before they're ready to be put to market, we must ensure that they are of the highest quality and safety for the user, as to be expected from something marked with the Ares Arms logo!

Ares Arms: Because your life is worth the protection we can provide through our products!

Posted by: Cheops Jun 14 2011, 02:47 PM

Trivial. According to Unhinged you just need an agent and encrypt. Then have it run for several days ahead of time and hard encrypt your PAN. Now each extended test has a time of 1 day. Good luck hacking that in combat.

Posted by: sabs Jun 14 2011, 02:56 PM

You cannot hard encrypt communication channels.

It's not possible.

Posted by: Cheops Jun 14 2011, 03:00 PM

Noted. Thank you.

Posted by: sabs Jun 14 2011, 03:05 PM

You can hard encrypt files, and file systems. Which is a bitch, and I don't understand why everyone wouldn't be doing it

Really, all secured commlinks and nexii should have hard-encrypted file systems. But that stuff.. shouldn't work that way.

Hard Encryption should only slow you down if you're trying to access the files 'offline'

If you're IN the Commlink, and have a seemingly legit account, then the system should auto-decrypt it for you. Because noone is going to require you to enter a passphrase everytime your OS tries to edit a system log. That's just not viable.

I would argue that Strong Encryption is really for specific files, that have been individually encrypted to be even more obnoxious. (like Password protected files)

Posted by: CanRay Jun 14 2011, 05:13 PM

OK, back to the Gun Nuttery, as we're in a topic that I'm fully entrenched in (Even if everyone wants me to shut up. ).

What new or vintage firearm has you drooling over?

For some reason, the Ares Canadian Sportster Rifle seems to speak to me. I'm thinking I'll get it for Pup the Dog Shaman for his Devil Rat/Demon Rat and Cat Hunting expeditions to get meat for his cooking experiments.

And, of course, I now have stats for a Colt M1911A1. (OK, it's the M1991, but it's not like there's much difference in stats!). I think China will finally have stopped knocking off the Browning M1900 and started knocking off these by the 2050s at least.

Posted by: hermit Jun 14 2011, 05:27 PM

Not drooling, but the G36 is a nice touch for an aging merc of mine, and my vigilante/militiaman will love all the old-fashioned all-american guns.


Seriously? Those guns from China (excuse me, the 'former Chinese communist regime') look more like they'Re ripping off Manga these days. No offense to the artist, it's technically sound and all, but ... maybe guns ought to look a tad more ergonomic?

Also, there actually are more sensible Chinese weapons from older fluff. Like the Tan Tien Louh Fu (stats like Samopal vz/88V) and Tan Tien Paau (stats like Ares Predator I) from Predator&Prey.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 14 2011, 05:28 PM

IIRC Norinco has been producing 1911s since the 80s. Pretty much exact copies of the Colt M1911A1, from what I've read.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 14 2011, 06:04 PM

Well the M1991 using a .45 ACP in a 5" barrel is highly important to me for a couple of reasons. It is a solid round size through which other pistols built on the M1911 frame can be extrapolated and the damage of 5P and AP -1 provides me with a basis for further vintage handguns or rather updates for 2070's use. For instance now I know that a hi cap version of a 1911 frame firing a .460 Rowland (Case length is longer so you don't accidentally load it in a regular .45 ACP handgun since it might send the slide flying directly at your face at high velocity. The width or standard measure for caliber actually remains the same), would reasonably and accurately do damage of 6P and AP -1 or somewhere in that range. Essentially the power of a .44 magnum revolver round fired from a M1911 gun frame, simply awesome. Combined with a 14 round magazine and we are one happy gunslinger.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jun 14 2011, 06:20 PM

Sounds like Windows Vista.

Posted by: hermit Jun 14 2011, 06:21 PM

Like someone once said, in SR4, the Matrix became Windows with a bit of magic.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 14 2011, 06:24 PM

dear deity, i thought i was down on the deep end when ranting about weapon mounts and launch weapons...

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 14 2011, 06:24 PM

Well, at least it didn't become OSX.

Posted by: hermit Jun 14 2011, 06:29 PM

I think RvD said that, not me (though he has some points about the general level of nonexistent security measures).

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 14 2011, 07:19 PM

While I work on my review of Gun Heaven, I've been going over the firearms with a fine tooth comb.

The MP9 is the best machine pistol. Between 1 innate recoil compensation and default FA mode, it's a great little package. You can get 8 RC for 1 mod slot (3 Gas Vent III barrel slot + 3 Hand Gyromount + 1 innate + 1 personalized grip). The 25 round clip is on the small side (2 FA IPs and 1 double BF IP), but if you really want you can extend it to 31 rounds. That's enough for 3 IPs firing FA which is good enough. If your GM allows it and you can find the RC needed, it'll make a decent base for a quite concealable HV SnS spammer too.

I'm debating the usefulness of the Jianshi. It's BF only and thus take 1 mod slots to fix. But it comes with a powered slide mount (how many mod slots I'm unsure, but my guess is 3). That's free mod slots and you can't buy those with love or money. The dual clips aren't anything special, but alright. Still on the fence on it though.

Edit- For bad math and writing. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=35147&view=findpost&p=1079150 for original mistakes

Posted by: Mäx Jun 14 2011, 07:59 PM

Don't you mean 3, that last one bullet makes for quite a pitiful FA burst

Why would you assume it has a more then one?

It's SA/BF so 1 mod slot should be enought, unless you planning to add SS mode too

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 14 2011, 08:43 PM

You're right. At 31 rounds, it's 3 IP and 4 bullets left over on the fourth. That's still good enough.

Edit- You would typically reload on the 4 IP. But the fight should be wrapping up if not over at that point so you can burn a free (smartgun system) + simple action to reload.


I wrote that wrong. I mean how many slots you can use on the powered slide mount. It's got a maximum size between 1 and 5. Normally it takes up Mod Slots on Mount + 1 mod slots. However since it's an option, it takes up no mod slots. So how big is it? I think it's 3 because that lets you put a underbarrel weapon on it which seems fair.



I was looking thinking of the HV mod when I wrote that (that'll teach me to try to figure out how to build the FA HV assault cannon). Mea Culpa. I'm going to figure out what I can do with the powered slide mount. It has less innate recoil compensation than the Ares Alpha, but restricted legality. Pity that it's the most WTF? looking of all the weapons.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 14 2011, 09:01 PM

Huh, FA shoots 10 bullets, so by my math it's exactly 1 bullet left over, as my previous post said.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 14 2011, 09:11 PM

There you go using Math again...

Posted by: squee_nabob Jun 14 2011, 10:46 PM

I think Hida was using a Long + Short burst (which is also fully automatic fire, but not a full burst). Long = 6 shots, short = 3, that's 9 a round which would result in 4 bullets left over.

Max is counting 10 for a full burst, which would result in 1 bullet.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 15 2011, 12:22 AM

"Math is hard, let's bake cookies for the boys!" - Barbie

Posted by: Fringe Jun 15 2011, 12:41 AM

I love how the picture of the Enfield M1098 (page 5) is actually a SIG. (It looks to me like a P228 or P229.) It's photomanipulated just enough to take out the SIG branding and identification markings. And I wouldn't quite classify a P228 as a holdout pistol.

Posted by: Hagga Jun 15 2011, 06:15 AM

Should be good. Let me make that space based game a lot more fun. Ta.

Posted by: Socinus Jun 15 2011, 08:54 AM

Niiiiiice, I'm liking the Onotari XFactor III. Looks like one of my new go-to bullet hoses.

With an inherent dual-clip system, slap on an Extended Clip to raise the total round capacity to 76. Add a Gas Vent 3, a Folding Stock, an underbarrel Foregrip, Shockpad, and a Personalized Grip to give you 6 points of recoil compensation, 7 if you use the stock. And you still have an extra mod slot on the weapon to play with. It'll be able to fire 7 Full Bursts or 3 rounds of Suppression Fire without stopping to reload. Sink about 4,000 and buy two clips filled with Narcoject Capsule rounds, you can drop entire squadrons of guys with a weapon like this.

Not quite as good as the Praetor in terms of a pure bullet hose, but still pretty awesome.

Only problem is the Advanced Safety System doesn't work because the gun doesn't have a Smartgun System >.<

Posted by: hermit Jun 15 2011, 09:25 AM

Well, you can use that one leftover slot for the smartlink, then.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 15 2011, 09:34 AM

Is there any explanation who's producing weapons under the "Enfield" name in the 2070s? IRL there hasn't been any firearms manufacturing at the Enfield site since the Royal Small Arms Factory closed in 1988.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 15 2011, 10:06 AM

Maybe SK picked up the trademark?

Posted by: Fringe Jun 15 2011, 11:15 AM

"This gun was designed to meet the perceived need for a small pistol to be issued to Royal Air Force crews during the EuroWars. It picked up some government sales, primarily to police and protective units that found the small size and enhanced ergonomic features useful. The M1098 is currently produced by Armamentos Murreta at their Cape Town facility." (Gun Heaven, p. 5)

I would guess it would be cheaper to market another gun to the government bureaucrats than to acquire a trademark (Enfield) and slap it onto a shrunken SIG P228. Just because the pistol was issued to the RAF crews doesn't mean they necessarily liked the weapon. How many military small arms are actually bought by the operators who use them? For spec ops, that fraction might be higher, but the rank-and-file get issued whatever they get issued.

"Always remember, your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." (Murphy's Laws of Warfare)

Posted by: hermit Jun 15 2011, 11:26 AM

Enfield belongs to Integrated Weapons Systems, a subdivision of British Industrial, which is a subsidiary of Regulus Joint Enterprises.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jun 15 2011, 11:37 AM

I was thinking the same thing myself. But apparently, you only need a smartgun system to install the advanced safety as a mod not as an accessory. I guess the accessory has all its needs to run while the mod doesn't? Regardless, I'm surprised by the lack of smartgun systems among the newer weapons in this book.

As for my analysis of the clip of the MP9, I did the math using the 6 round long burst + 3 round short burst FA option and not the 10 round Full Burst FA option.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 15 2011, 03:21 PM

It's England, it's Tradition, likely a new factory was built on the site of the old one and the name came back into the use. Or there's another factory at Enfield Lock. Lots of possibilities.

Posted by: Nath Jun 15 2011, 05:55 PM

Hawker-Siddley and BAC (British Aerospace Corporation) also appear in Shadowrun, which suggest the British aerospace & defense industry went a different way in the timeline, with the divergence starting as early as 1979.

Posted by: Socinus Jun 15 2011, 06:06 PM

Not if you buy the Smartlink as an external top-barrel mount

Posted by: Udoshi Jun 20 2011, 05:00 AM

So, i just paged through this book.

Noticed a few guys come with built in powered slide mounts.


Has anyone stepped forth and clarified the SIZE of the powered slide mounts?
Because you kind of need to know how many modification slots you can use for an exchangible weapon modification. Guessing it tends to be 3, because thats the size for an underbarrel weapon.

Good job Devs, for not knowing your rules.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 20 2011, 06:47 AM

Could be a case of adding the slide mount, but forgetting to specify the value (or meaning to come back and set a specific value once they have done some evaluations). Still, there is also the non-smartgun with iff capability...

Posted by: hermit Jun 20 2011, 09:50 AM

Actually, that's unfair. Not all writers are as blatantly ignorant of the rules as the person who brought us this file. I guess the most glaring mistakes were even taken out, considering his work on War ...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 07:39 AM

OK, that seems a touch harsh and too far, even for DumpShock. Let's all play nice, it's just a game after all, and a complex one at that. There will be issues that crop up.

That said, an answer would be nice.

OK, get us back on topic (Again): The Civilian Weapons with Internal Magazines, your thoughts!

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 21 2011, 09:23 AM

Something to put in the hands of the wageslave who's apartment they happen to traverse during the improvised getaway?

Posted by: Mäx Jun 21 2011, 11:31 AM

Nice world building, but maybe 1 with mention about similar weapons would have been enough, sad to see 3 pages spend on such fluff weapons.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 02:14 PM

And targets of hostile extractions. And mugging victims. And people on the bus/monorail/subway. And...It's the Megas, they're going to be competing for market share. If the art was better, I'd be more than happy.

Posted by: hermit Jun 21 2011, 02:53 PM

Declaring these weapons legal throughout the world is a very unpleasant case of ignorance, and one of the instances where the author's own political opinions shine through a lot more than they ought to. Also, it doesn't fit with most fluff at all.

That said, it's certainly a nice suprise for an American-focused campaign, to bring in local flavour (this counts all Ares compounds worldwide, too).

Why would internal magazines be so special though? It's not like today, in states that have a high civilian arms ownership rate, everybody has muskets?


Oh yeah, and that can really, really backfire for the team involved. Had one such game years ago.

Scenario: hostile extraction of corp scientist from lab. The team - rigger, amerind streetsam, decker, shaman - infiltrates all right, offs a few guards and stuffs them into closets. The streetsam then kicks in the door to the lab where the target was, and sends a few interns and assistants shrieking. And hoses them all down (he always brought his beloved Ingram Valiant LMG to every run for situations like these).

The target, some lear researcher, hides in a cubboard. The streetsam kicks in the cubboard too and the target, clearly freaked, waves around with a Streetline he keeps for personal defense, going all "no don't kill me I can kill you back!"

The amerind was wearing his light military warmour on that run. We played by SR1. The streetline was absolutly no threat. The amerind nonetheless executes the target with a long burst from his LMG. when the otherts ask him what the HELL he just did, he says: "The paleface drew a weapon on me. He insulted my honor as a warrior. It was a matter of prinicple!*"

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 03:07 PM

I will agree that throughout the world is a bit of a reach (Especially in Japan. But don't forget just how bad the world is getting despite being shiny and happy compared to 2050s.).

Internal Magazines prevent rapid reloading either with a Speedloader or a Magazine (*Sighs* CLIP!), while still allowing for a home defense weapon that can be taught to the average user. Muskets are fairly complex in usage due to the fact that overloading the weapon with powder can be far too easily done (Not to mention what happens if you buy the wrong kind of powder!). Having them be light pistols, and the prevalence of armour used by Security Forces now, it makes a lot of sense in high-risk areas (Which, let's face it, is pretty much everywhere that isn't country! And if you're out there, you probably have a hunting rifle!).

Ares Citizens probably have better weapons available to them considering the heavily military influences the Corporation has. John Ares Wageslave might not pull out a Predator, but a Light Fire 70 is easily enough to see him be packing in his briefcase. Of the Ares Bowel Disruptor, the most intimidating revolver available in .38 Special!

Posted by: hermit Jun 21 2011, 03:27 PM

Ah, an internal magazine's one of these "to reload insert every bullet you want to reload in slot 1 and waste precious seconds where you can and will be shot" mechanisms. So the usual eject clip/put new clip in is called external magazine?


Not thought of it like this, but it makes sense. Or if you scrape the barrel too much, I imagine. I guess that's in parts why those things aren't exactly widely used anymore (save for the Street Sweeper).


With the kinds of animals roming the countryside? I'd say an RPG or two are a bare nescessity. And even then there're critters you just cannot do anything about.


Sure, but where does that make these things any more legal than they already are? It's not like you couldn't buy a license for a gun like this. Maybe decree licenses cost half in "most" countries or something like that, but not "legal everywhere". Because it's not like the whole world is like the CAS. Especially Japan, but also the Britain, Euro-Tír, and Switzerland setting (which, considering IRL Switzerland is handing out assault rifles to every able male and requires by law them to keep it handy and in firing condition at any time, is bizarre in it's own right).


Considering Ares probably inherited DARPA, that makes perfect sense.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 21 2011, 03:35 PM

Or the humble shotgun, that can take on anything from foul to deer, depending on load. Hell, under SR rules it may even take on some paracritters...

Posted by: Mäx Jun 21 2011, 04:42 PM

Usually detachable magazine.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 05:04 PM

Yep. If you've ever played a FPS with a reloading system, think the shotgun from it. Or, if you've played Fallout: New Vegas, think of any of the Lever-Action weapons or the Hunting Shotgun. http://youtu.be/rg3d9pKlGEk. That is an internal magazine.

"Clips" in Shadowrun are called "Detachable Magazines", usually called "Box" magazines due to their shape. They are sometimes external (Like the large magazine in front of the trigger guard that you see on a M-16 or AK-47 on TV or in the movies.) and sometimes internal (Like any semi-automatic pistol you see on TV or in the movies, where the magazine is held in the pistol grip.).

Yeah, but I remember my first game of Rifts well, when I didn't realize there was SDC and MDC, and decided to go hunting... "You paint the forest in Venison." as the GM put it.

Not as bizarre as you'd think, as said able-bodied men are either currently serving in the military, or are in the reserves. Add to that the terrain that Switzerland is made up of, and you have a iron-clad reason to never, ever mess with that country in a military manner. Even with modern equipment, which they also have, BTW.

OK, I shall correct myself: "Civilian Longarm". Of course, if you can get your hands on one, a Battle Rifle will work just as well as long as you're not hunting small game.

Shotguns also allow for fowl hunting with birdshot, which is something that shouldn't be discounted either. Finally, the main advantage to being in the wilderness like this: There aren't too many cops around. Perfect for when the heat is on, no?

Posted by: Gerzel Jun 21 2011, 05:27 PM

One thing I think the megas might do is put out an extremely "user friendly" firearm. Something under powered, with tagged ammo, and non-re-loadable (Just bring it back and we'll swap for a new one!).

Add in a small built in dedicated commlink that automatically calls for help as soon as shots are fired and perhaps some pepper spray and you get a personal defense and safety tool.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 21 2011, 05:32 PM

He ment that the SR Switzerland setting is bizarre because of that, not that the current situation is bizarre

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 05:35 PM

Vending Machine Personal Defense Systems: Now available at select Stuffer Shacks!

"Why do they never put these things near where they're actually useful?" - Random Pedestrian

Posted by: hermit Jun 21 2011, 07:34 PM

Exactly. The bizarre part is that they gave this up. After all, it eterred virtually any would-be conqueror for nearly 500 years now. Today's switzerland is the landscape of afghanistan combined with an affluent and hightech country that is convinced to live vaultec's dream. Did you know every swiss citizen had a guaranteed nuclear-proof shelter place reserved for them? or that Switzerland's defense strategy is that every valley is it's own fortress - with hangars and F-16 in every valley, complete with James Bond-ish fake rock hangar doors? And every valley is armed to give all surrounding valleys artillery support over the summits? That country is armed like crazy.

It's totally NUTS they'd just give that up, especially since SR switzerland actually is even more paranoid about an invasion.


Given there even is wilderness. In most of Europe, there is just dense and somewhat less dense population. Unlike America, with it's large cities separated by lots and lots of ... nothing much.

Posted by: Gerzel Jun 21 2011, 07:55 PM

Actually some large tracts of Europe were de-populated during various events in the Awakening. Forests regrew, and in North Western France you have fogs that disappeared whole towns and small cities.

Posted by: hermit Jun 21 2011, 08:20 PM

Okay, but those areas are just a no-go.

There's the SOX containment zone for a nuclear desaster, the wildlands in england and ireland that are populated by bad mooded fairies, the bretagne which is populated by malignant fairies, and the tox spill zone in poland which is populated by mutants and toxics. and that forest in galicia that eats people.

This is all seriously beyond where a shotgun with birdshot will be helpful.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 21 2011, 09:54 PM

Hey, it's always nice to have one for yourself, at the very least!

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 10:13 PM

Or Canada, where our "Nothing Much" is what we call our cities.

Posted by: Raiki Jun 21 2011, 11:40 PM

Hey, it apparently works for you. Working in the hospitality biz in upstate NY, I encounter a lot of Canadians. And you know what? They're 1000% nicer than almost any American that comes through my hotel, no matter where they're from.

Then again, the Canadians could all just be awestruck by the booming metropolis that is Binghamton, NY. /Sarcasm


~R~

Posted by: CanRay Jun 21 2011, 11:55 PM

One of my tech support jobs having been servicing New York (City, admittedly), I think the issue might be that you're dealing with New Yorkers.

Personally, I have no idea why Canadians are as polite as we are. Then again, I'm a bloody jerk for a (Non-Francophone) Canadian.

EDIT: However, Newfies, on the other hand... But seeing as they were their own country at one time, might not count. Anyhow, give them Screech, and they'll be fine. Until it's time to start the bar fight.

Posted by: Raiki Jun 22 2011, 12:01 AM

You see, there's a reason why Binghamton (which hugs the Pennsylvania border) calls itself 'upstate New York". You can't get much further from upstate without being in the NYC area, but if we don't say that people confuse us with those assholes from the city. It's kind of like assuming everyone from Ontario is from Toronto, ya know?

Short version: Nope, that's not it, we hate those NYC slots too.



~R~

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 01:09 AM

Why not? They think they're all that exists in Ontario.

Except for their cottages, of course.

Posted by: Fabe Jun 22 2011, 01:20 AM

Coming soon: Vending Machine Assassin Drones, Chose target set and contempt level ,drone self destructs upon termination of target .

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 01:23 AM

Yeah, until one gets smart enough to keep the target alive while he goes freelance...

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2011, 02:51 AM

Iirc, there are quick reload systems for rifles with internal magazines. Functions a bit like the speed loader of a revolver in that it holds a preset number of rounds that can then be rapidly inserted into the magazine as needed.

Posted by: DWC Jun 22 2011, 03:12 AM

That would be what a clip actually is.

Posted by: Gerzel Jun 22 2011, 03:30 AM

Not entirely. Spain and much of the German forest that regrew is re-habitable. the GeMiTo Sprawl lost a lot but is coming back slowly and the fogs have been receding in France.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 03:30 AM

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/photolib/misc/British%20.303%20Rifle%20Ammunition%20Clip.htm

That only works with some internal magazine weapons, specifically ones designed for them, and usually of a military design. I doubt the "Civilian" weapon as described would use a clip. Clip clip clip. I enjoy saying it when it's right!

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=134_136_149&products_id=59&osCsid=680b02ab8f41ed57f414fe32ae6add6f

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2011, 04:24 AM

Heh, a lot of old military rifles have made its ways into civilian hands as hunting rifles in Norway. Farm i grew up on held a old Krag-Jørgensen in the attic. Crazy beast! https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Krag-J%C3%B8rgensen

and ah, the official name seems to be stripper clip: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Stripper_clip

Posted by: Sengir Jun 22 2011, 08:54 AM

Yep, the author's obvious preoccupation with "home defence" wouldn't be a problem if this was supposed to be an Ares Arms ad ("there are 349875 home invasions every day in the UCAS, buy our stuff to protect your loved ones"), but this is supposed to be written from the POV of a mercenary who seems to be at another frontline every time she posts something. I doubt there would be much use for a light pistol in the kind of invasions she worries about

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2011, 09:16 AM

From the writing style, it seems Picador included the weapons for completeness sake rather then any personal preference. And Perhaps also for informing fellow jackpoint users about what they may encounter alongside what they may find usable in their line of work.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 22 2011, 11:28 AM

Yeah, this.
I personally really like the inclusion of this weapon type, just not the fact that there are 3 of them taking up 3 valuable pages.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 22 2011, 12:33 PM

What I really dislike is that there is nothing special about them. But that's pretty much my problem with Shadowrun weapons - in my opinion, reading the description of a well-designed item should make you go "WOW WANT NOW". The monowhip would be a prime example of the stuff working like that.
As it is, Shadowrun, both in Arsenal, War! and Gun Heaven, has a bunch of weapons which are basically the same, with slight alterations to this and that stat, and this and that mods already made for you. I think Dark Heresy Core dealt with that right - "what we have here are generic versions, there's a million more models, each of those alters the stats a bit, feel free to write those up yourself". It's not all that bad, of course - say, there's the Executive Protector and the Clappistol in Arsenal, - but generally, nothing really catches the eye.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 01:35 PM

That is an issue, but the opposite problem is worse: the Alpha is the only AR with the magic RC, the White Knight ditto, etc. Very few offerings are distinct because of interesting reasons, instead of merely superior stats.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 02:10 PM

.30-06 is a very common hunting round in the USA, and was originally designed as a military round for a Bolt-Action Rifle. It can be found in various old military models and civilian new rifles.

.303 British Service and "8mm Mauser" (Actually 7.92mm) are common in Canada, all being Military Rifles brought/sent home from WWI/WWII/Korea.

Even in Canada, the tradition of taking your service arm home isn't exactly frowned upon, until the assault rifle became standard issue at least. Something about another tradition of keeping fully-automatic weapons out of civilian hands.
Generic statistics are both a boon and a fault. It's great in that it's easy to teach to people, and easy to "Figure out" firearms that aren't in the system.

On the downside, everything looks the same stats wise for the most part. At that point, it goes down to a case of personal style for a choice in firearm, and Shadowrun has been pretty decent in providing picture references for equipment at least. Not quite as good as I'd personally like, but I'm a hard, demanding person when it comes to stuff like that. So, what we need now is a marketing point of view to sell a weapon, as Fatum describes, with Shadowtalk about what's real, what's fake, and what is pure balderdash.

I still want to know what causes the magic RC in the Ares Alpha, however... Yes yes yes, "It's special design" and all that, and I can think of a few ideas of how that works... 'Course, I'd also like calibers and the Easter Bunny, too.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 22 2011, 04:02 PM

Well, the book claims the magical 2 RC comes from a special chamber design. Which really makes me wonder... chamber designs, how do they work?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 04:18 PM

Magically...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 06:10 PM

Depends on the firearm. But the Chamber is where the round is held before it's detonated and it turns from a "Not Shooty" bullet into a "Shooty" bullet. (Sorry, old joke about the media and their portrayal of firearms.).

There are a few design tricks with the action and layout of the firearm to help deal with "felt recoil" (As the laws of physics prevent actual recoil.), might be what the authors (Who aren't gun nuts, obviously) are referring to. Some of these are very subtle and may seem like magic, but are just engineering.

Which, now that I think of it, is just a different form of magic, isn't it?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jun 22 2011, 06:21 PM

And that's why I like the GURPS weapons system so much. The kind of ammo matters when you take into account weight (that shadowrun doesn't care), type of ammunition (that shadowrun doesn't care), ammount of ammunition, range (that is usually dependent on ammunition and barrel length) and price.

I know there are weapons that are far superior than others but shadowrun's weapons are so similar that usually the only difference they have are ammount of ammunition and price between the same kind of weapon.

Posted by: hermit Jun 22 2011, 06:22 PM

The magical RC of the Ares Alpha is a leftover from 2nd/3rd where bullpup design was made of magical RC goodness.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 22 2011, 06:57 PM

Well i hate to break it to you, but thats pretty much how it is in the real world too, doesn't really top people shouting "Do want" when they see some new(to them atleast) gun

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 07:19 PM

OK, that makes sense.
What's the difference between a Para-Ordinance P14-45 and a Glock 21? Weight, a little bit of barrel length, and a single round of .45 ACP.

Oh, and one is made in Canada and the other in Austria.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 07:20 PM

I agree: it's realistic, it's easier for balance, and it's nice to have minor options. Games where each weapon has a serious niche are called Halo.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 07:21 PM

And yet the Shotgun is still king.

Shotgun.

...

I said Shotgun, damnit!

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2011, 07:34 PM

Or one can go to the Blue Planet extreme and have exact one gun pr category (except for the GEO marshals sidearm, but that is a different story).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 07:41 PM

SR4 *would* be the same game if the only guns were 'Light Pistol', 'SMG', etc. It'd be less stylish, but game balance and everything would be 99% the same. I assume this is by design, with the truly unique options (collapsible pistol, ceramic pistol, suitcase SMG) there for much more specific uses.

Posted by: Sengir Jun 22 2011, 08:18 PM

Picador is a mercenary, the resident expert on African hellholes, and her late spouse used to voice his contempt about what shadowrunners do and how they do it ("with your attitude, it's no wonder Johnsons consider you expendable and screw you over"). So if anything, ordinary runners would have to tell her about weapons an extraction target might carry, not the other way round.

From the more mechanical side of things, my main impression was "what should I use this for?". Guns a civilian might carry? That's essentially what the Holdout category is for, several existing Light Pistols (that Israeli thing comes to mind) would also do fine. Guerrilla gang from Craplapistan? Classics like the G3 or FAL would be better for that than old US Army equipment.

What I do like, though, is the presentation and the drawings. The filtered RL photos are not my taste, but each to his own...and better those than drawings like in Parazoology

Lastly, as it has become all too common with the new PDF products, even a casual glance showed the first obvious blunder: Guns with all kinds of electronic gizmos, but no smartgun system? Oh please...

Overall verdict: I won't buy the book (yes, I downloaded the extra-large preview - I like leafing through a book before buying). And I can't really recommend it to anyone else. Not because it's bad, but because I simply fail to see a place for these guns.

PS: Nevertheless, there is one problem with the layout: The black lines at cap- and baseline look really bad if something extends above or below those lines...as the brackets unfortunately do.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jun 22 2011, 08:29 PM

We already do this with vehicles (we give one picture and a name and a list of similar models), we could do the same with weapons. This would give economy of space and at the same time we could give more characteristics for weapons like: 7.62mm assault rifle, 5.56mm assault rifle, etc, etc, etc.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 08:45 PM

Exactly, it's the same as the vehicles. I'm not saying reduce the weapon catalog, just that there's a reason the differences are minor. Honestly, I wish the sniper rifles were *not* so distinct.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 08:49 PM

And yet, probably 90% of the published material for firearms in SR4 has listed them sans Smartgun Systems. Why should a new book be any different? After all, you can modify them or accessorize them. Or, you know, use the general rule that a Smartgun system doubles the cost and walla, you now have a smartgun system integral to your weapon.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 08:59 PM

Wouldn't the "Standard Issue" for Kraplapistan be a Kalashnikov knock-off of one type or another?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 09:01 PM

Voilà?

It is funny that any gun comes without it, but commlinks also come without sim modules. *shrug*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 09:09 PM

Yep... Voilà... Been a long day...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 09:10 PM

Not everyone that buys a CommLink wants to us VR. They're more than perfectly happy with AR. Also, as an "Option", they can charge more for it. As well as have other "Companies" provide "Choices" of Sim Modules and SmartGun Links, despite all the ones being compatible with your hardware being under the same Corporate Umbrella if you dig a bit. This kind of illusion keeps people from believing that the Megas are truly dominating their lives. After all, they have "Competition".

Posted by: Sengir Jun 22 2011, 09:11 PM

But those weapons don't have any other electronic features. Gun Heaven on the other hand introduces guns with integrated commlink, anti-friendly-fire system, but no smartgun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 09:35 PM

*Shrug* And? I still see no issues with this...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 09:47 PM

OK, major issues with Smart Gun Links that I can personally see: Maintenance and Complexity.

Most firearms sold are sold to countries with conscript armies or to civilians, who won't want the complexity of training required to work with a Smart Gun. Yeah, it "Aims the gun for you", but there's a lot of extra parts to take care of and calibrate.

Maintenance is the next part. Smart Guns are complex and require a lot of it, I would hazard as a guess. With a massive force, that adds up in manhours (Cheap) and replacement equipment (Expensive.).

Now, with CommLinks and PANs making up a part of the logistics of a military force, allowing REMFs to monitor who is using what and being able to see where things are being "Lost", such as paperclips, are more than worth the "Expense" of RFID tags and CommLinks to every soldier.

Posted by: hermit Jun 22 2011, 09:47 PM

Still not sure what the crappy Renraku all-2 commlink in a gun is supposed to be good for.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 09:50 PM

Well, upgrade it to Rating 4, and it is no longer a Crappy Comlink...

Posted by: hermit Jun 22 2011, 09:52 PM

... why would you want a commlink in your gun? And all-4 still is mediocre at best.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 09:53 PM

Budget Soldiers and REMFs who like to count paperclip RFID tags.

Posted by: Fabe Jun 22 2011, 10:04 PM

According to their Radio ads a Local Hair Salon sells curling irons with a built in MP3 player and thats here in the real world so someone wanting aa comlink in a gun isn't that far fetched.

Posted by: Sengir Jun 22 2011, 10:16 PM

The new Swiss Army Knife comes with 12 features, including a left-handed screwdriver, spare bubbles for spirit levels (in three different sizes), a null modem, and a detachable sky hook. Not included is a blade, because if you design something with all those gizmos, who needs such a normal feature?

If a gun is tricked out with all sorts of electronic gear, something mundane like a smartgun should be expected. And if said gun has a Safe Target System, it's even required by the rules.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 10:25 PM

I Like those Spare Spirit Bubbles... And some Skyline is also a must...

And actually, a Safe Target System Requires a Smartgun System to FUNCTION, does not have to have one to be installed. It will just be uselsee without a Smartgun System of some sort, whether it be a Modification after market, or an Accessory after Market. Or you can, you know, just spend the money to have an internal one at purchase.

No worries though...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 22 2011, 10:32 PM

Actually the knife was not included for safety reasons. Those things are sharp!

Posted by: hermit Jun 23 2011, 05:21 AM

That's rather retarded. Even moreso because every normal person plays their music on their smartphone these days.


The new CraplackMotors M2000 comes with HUD, night vision, an entertainment suite, an onboard supercomputer, and a body made of advanced nanoceramics that can be set to several levels of transparency. An engine and wheels have to be installed aftermarket though.

It just makes no sense as is, by the rules.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 12:40 PM

And yet, I am sure that you can find people that use the above piece of technology. Besides, I consider myself normal, and yet, I do not play music on a Smartphone. I do not even OWN a Smartphone. Of course, I do not even own a Cellphone at all (No one needs to reach me 24/7/365). I play my music on my computer or my stereo.




See, I disagree with this completely... There are some crazy marketing schemes out there, and the inclusion of electronics in a gun that does not have a Smartgun System is not the craziest. See the above example.

Posted by: hermit Jun 23 2011, 12:51 PM

What? The car without engine and wheels?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 01:21 PM

Nope, the "it just makes no sense as is, by the rules" statement that you used.

Your example is indeed ludicrous (unless you are buying the parts and building the car yourself)... but electronics in weapons that need additional electronics to be fully functional is not that big of a deal. As I indicated, the Curling Iron with the MP3 Player is just as entertaining.

Ultimately, if you look at that weapon and think... "well that is just stupid" you are not going to purchase it. Some people may say, WOW, for 700 (Don't actually know the price of the gun we are discussing, just an example) more I can get a fully functional Smartgun System with all the bells and whistles, and it is even cheaper than if I had bought all of those systems piecemeal.

That is why it is an option and not a requirement. You don't like the equipment, don't purchase it. Some one else may just think that it is the Bee's Knees.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 23 2011, 01:28 PM

I'd just like to point out that, no, you're not normal, Tymeaus. Normal people have cell phones, luddite.

I do think Safe Target requires Smartgun, so I dunno what's going on there. Otherwise, it's not a problem that smartgun is an optional upgrade.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 01:30 PM

Hey, I enjoy most of the Modern Conveniences of the world. I just hate Cell Phones. They are intrusive. If people want to get hold of me, they have my Work Phone and my Home Phone. If I do not pick up, then I did not want to talk to them at that time, or I was unavailable. Cell Phones are just annoying, Texting even more so...

Posted by: hermit Jun 23 2011, 01:34 PM

Actually, the weapon with safe firing and no smartlink is like a curling iron with the capacity to play MP3, but neither internal memory nor a slot to put in a common memory chip or usb stick. In other words, while it clearly can play MP3s, it never will because it will never come in contact with one.

It contains a functionality that, as is, is useless. you can, presumably, listen to MP3s on your curling iron player thing if you're so inclined, so while it's a bizarre functionality, it at least is one that you can actually use. A better hyerbole example might be a car that has top-notch, functional and best quality cruise control, autopilot and all kinds of safety assistants, but neither engine nor wheels.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2011, 01:40 PM

No it's not

The gun only needs to be a smartlinked if you want to add Safe target system as a modification, god only knows why.

Also i have to say it's damm hilarious to see all of you spouting allkinds of hyperbole and bitch about writers not knowing their own rules, witch you yourself have no clue about

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 01:42 PM

And yet, all it takes is a small amount of money to provide full functionality for the Electronics of the weapon, because, you know, the gun is still fully functional. Unlike your car scenario, which takes excessive amounts of Money just to make it functional. The gun works out of the box, your car analogy does not.

Apples and Oranges there Hermit...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 01:52 PM

Actually, according to the Quote that you so generously provided.



You are pretty entertaining Max... The Smartlink/Guncam is a requirement to add IMAGE RECOGNITION to the system. The System Must have an Input for the Images and recognition software to interpret. You can't do that without the Smartlink or Guncam.

I Never said anything about writers not knowing the rules (You can check, you won't find it). In fact, the rules are pretty evident, and I DO have a clue about them, I just did not see the need to reference them, as you did. Thanks for the Reference. My statement was that the Safe Target System is not FULLY functional without a Smartgun System (or a Guncam, though I go with the Smartgun System personally). The parts that are not FULLY functional are the Image Recognition pieces.

You misinterpret the text to say that a Smartgun is required to add an After Market Safe Target System as a Modification, when in fact, all that is required is the Image Recognition Add-on in conjunction with an Installed Smartgun System or Guncam. Not the same thing that you are indicating above.

No worries though.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2011, 02:02 PM

No i dont:


And that last comment quite obviously wasn't aimed at you, but to those that where doing the stuff i mentioned
Like maybe the guy i responded and quoted in the start of that post.
Not that you really know the rules either.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 02:11 PM

Why would you ever use an Internal Version unless it came standard? I know that I wouldn't use it very often. But I will give you that one. I don't generally look at a Safe target System as a Modification.

As for the obvious aiming of comments, sometimes it is hard to tell, especially when it is generic.

Whatever Max...

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2011, 02:17 PM

Because it's about 70% cheaper

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 02:18 PM

I have too many other things to use my Modification Slots for, the Safe Target System is not generally an option.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 23 2011, 02:29 PM

Yeah, i don't really see the need for it,period.
There are better uses for the top and under barrel accessory slots too.

also to comment your earlier statement:
Safe target system is fully functional without smartlink, the image recognition is an optional extra feature that costs more money.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 23 2011, 02:39 PM

Indeed...
Of the about 90 characters that I have created over the years in SR4, only one or two actually used the Safe Target System.

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 23 2011, 04:50 PM

And I can't find my old work for teh Shiawase holdout revolver.

Nuts.

Two items of note were that it was nicknamed the 'piece of Shiawase' by people who'd used one of the drekky, mass-produced things, an dthat they coul dbe found in vending machines. Slot 100 nuyen and a four-chambered special would kerchunk on down, fully loaded and ready to go. (The pistol was only 75Y normally, so, you aid a premium for those four bullets, but, if you're getting a gun from a vending machine, you probably really, REALLY need it.)

It was neat, just because people would go, "Oh yeah! Shiawase *does* make arms!"

Plus, you know ... vending machine pistol.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 23 2011, 05:20 PM

Vending Machine Food is always more expensive for less quality and quantity.

I found that out when I was reading War! in a hospital ER Waiting Room at 2 in the morning.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 23 2011, 06:25 PM

I was of course actually joking and referencing the "Magnets, how do they work?" meme, but anyway...

I think I have the answer... sort of. It also follows my train of thought in a way which is... maybe gas venting shouldn't work on the Alpha but it could run a sound suppressor without the loss of RC (making it the ideal infiltration AR). Any of you familiar with the H&K G11? While not truly a "special chamber design" it sounds like it might be close to what they were aiming for.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jun 24 2011, 12:32 PM

I made all weapons generic, with an added Weapon Feature each. Most weapons come in 1 or 2 variants, so weapons really are different. I generally let players get a certain weapon with a certain Feature if they want it though.

Weapon Features House Rule

Each weapon gets 1 Weapon Feature. Many weapons are available in different versions, letting players pick a Feature for their weapon. The GM may rule that certain weapons require a certain Feature, or that some Features are not available for certain weapons.

Low recoil: 1 point of recoil compensation
Accurate: Reduce modifiers for long and extreme range by 1
Variable gas vent: This weapon has internal gas vents on this weapon allows for the mounting of a silencer or suppressor. The weapon is only silenced if the gas vents are closed, which negates the recoil compensation. Opening or closing the gas vents takes a Simple Action (Free Action for smartlinked weapons).
Penetrator: -1 AP. Ammo only interchangable with other weapons of same class and Feature.
Massive: This weapon fires larger bullets at lower velocity. +1 DV, +1 AP, -33% clip size (suppression fire with a full clip is still possible even if it holds <20 rounds). Ammo only interchangable with other weapons of same class and Feature.
High Velocity: Per existing rules, apply qualities of Low Recoil, Extended Magazines, Gas Vent, no underbarrel accessories. Only available for High Velocity weapons.
Extended magazines: +66% magazine capacity.
Reliable: The weapon needs one more die roll of 1 than normal to glitch or critically glitch. It receives +/-3 dice when testing for maintenance or reliability.
Cheap: -50% cost.
Compact: Reduce Cumbersome Weapon Rating by 1. Only available for bullpup weapons.
Concealable: -1 die to Perception tests to notice the weapon. –25% magazine capacity.
Silent: When a silencer or suppressor is mounted, apply an additional –2 to Perception Tests to hear the weapon
Heavy Weapon: Heavy Weapons require the Heavy Weapon feature and fo not get additional features.
Sniper Rifle: Sniper Rifles require the Sniper Rifle feature and do no get additional features.
Special effect: Weapons with special effects (ceramic components, underwater firing, inconspicuous dissassembly, Burst Fire for Pistols of Shotguns, etc.) require the Special Effect and do not get additional features.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 24 2011, 04:06 PM

This already exists for free on a gas-vented weapon.

Posted by: Fatum Jun 24 2011, 11:58 PM

Well, guns differ much more in RL even in the same class than they do in SR. If you go with simulationism, you have to account for that. For the most famous example, see AK-47vsM-16. Both are assault rifles, but firing the two is an unmistakably different experience; and I can think of quite a number of situations where users of each would shout "Do want" seeing the other.
For a gaming system somewhere between gamist and storytelling approach like Shadowrun, however, making equipment interesting and different is essential. There's just no point in statting up dozens of closely similar guns.

Well I'm not big on creating entirely new mechanics; so I just try to homebrew weapons that'd be interesting to use, have a certain zest you can't just replicate with mods and add-ons.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 25 2011, 10:11 AM

No, at the level of abstraction used in the SR4:s weapon rules, there really is zero difference between AK-47 and M-16.

Posted by: Fabe Jun 25 2011, 01:39 PM

I disagree, from what I know about those two weapons I would say that in SR terms the AK-47 would do more damage and have better armor penetration.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 25 2011, 01:44 PM

The difference between an assault rifle and a battle rifle in SR is exactly 1 point of damage, so no there really isn't room for one AR to do more damage then an other AR.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 25 2011, 02:25 PM

While the AK-47 uses a 7.62mm round it is much shorter than a 7.62mm NATO. It's sauce is equally weak compared to a 5.56mm NATO. The AK-47 is the weapon of choice to arm a conscription force with, however if you have the time to train them how to shoot, I would take any of the full size M-16 incarnations over the AK-47. Volume of fire, reliability and simplicity were the driving forces behind the AK-47, along with simple manufacturing (stamped versus machined), and large tolerances in all of its operating parts. It is highly inaccurate, but fun to use, and fairly effective at shorter ranges. It fit in perfectly with Soviet doctrine at the time. It's descendants are much more effective weapon systems, however with the increase in accuracy and tighter tolerances they have lost some of the fabled reliability. The M-16 is very accurate, and very reliable when you perform regular field maintenance (clean it). From personal experience I would choose the M-16 every time, since I know it will hit what I shoot at. At 500 yds. I can reliably fire a 10" group using the iron sights of the weapon. The AK-47 iron sights for lack of a better word suck. You are very lucky to hit anything at 300 yds. In close in fighting (CQB) or while fighting in dense undergrowth neither really has an advantage, but open things up and well I know what I would be using. So in terms of SR stats they are the same neither has a clear advantage.

Posted by: Critias Jun 25 2011, 02:27 PM

It would, if there was more granularity to the core mechanics of the system; but there isn't. +1 damage is a big deal, when the basic combat mechanics tend to work best with numbers in a very specific range.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 25 2011, 03:53 PM

+1... What more really need be said. If the SR system was more detailed from a firearms mechanical perspective, it might make a (Small) difference, but in the end, they really are more similar in use than they are dissimilar. At least as far as SR is Concerned.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 25 2011, 05:55 PM

It doesn't help that some of the "Training Lacking Persons" tend to think of the AK-47's sights as a "Power Gauge".

"When I put it all the way to 300, that is how many Infidels I will kill!"

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 25 2011, 11:33 PM

Mine only goes to 11...

Posted by: Fatum Jun 25 2011, 11:49 PM

You claimed that in RL new weapons do not produce the wow effect. If you'd read my previous post, you'd notice that I point out the obvious case of such; and moreover, state that if you expect realism from SR (if you do not, why would you use reactions to RL weapons as a basis for your opinions on SR weapons to begin with), the assault rifles should get different stats, for reasons obvious. Was pointing out the fact that they do not now supposed to rebut that? If you do not expect realism, your argument on RL weapons not having wow effect is meaningless, too.

The standard qualifying standard in the Russian army is hitting a meter-high ("dug-in combatant") target at 200 m. So it's not like you can't hit anything.
Just saying, let's not have the ten-thousands round of AKvsM-16 argument here.

Posted by: Mäx Jun 25 2011, 11:57 PM

Okey, go back and read my original post again, because i definedly said the exact opposite of what your claiming.
RL weapons most definedly have "wow effect", even thought there really isn't much difference's in them(incide any given "weapon class"), just like the guns in SR.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 12:08 AM

Why not? It's in every other firearm thread in every other forum on the Internet?

OK, folks, honestly, apples and oranges. The Assault Rifle is a compromise between a Machine Gun (Which were crew served at the time) and a Combat Rifle (Which were Bolt Action at the time.). Typically, they favor one or the other.

The AK favors the MG for rate and weight of fire, the M-16 favors the rifle for accuracy and ease of carrying and use. The other issues are found in various other arms that also have the issues argued for and against.

As my Mr. Johsnon should have said often enough to my PCs: "The right tool for the job, you Tools!"

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 26 2011, 12:57 AM

Wouldn't that rather be a compromise between Submachine Gun and Rifle? After all, the East German army classified the AK-47 as an SMG (MPi-K).

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 01:26 AM

Hey I like both weapons for different purposes but when I am talking about accuracy, well let me explain. When I was in the USMC we had converted from a point system to what was essentially a hit or miss scoring system for rifle qualifications. The target we used were the Able target a simple bullseye target and black is 12'' in diameter, additionally it had a center x ring which was 6" across if I remember correctly. We fired on these at the 200 yard line 5 sitting, 5 kneeling, 5 standing, slow fire, if I remember correctly the x ring was worth 2 points at this stage of fire only, and 1 point for a hit outside the x ring. Then you fired 10 round rapid fire at the 200 yard line on a Dog Target which is a low profile target black is 19" tall and 26" wide (looks like a man in the prone position) 1 point for a hit. At this point you moved back to the 300 yd line for a 5 shot slow fire kneeling on an Able target, and then another rapid fire of 10 rounds at the Dog target. A hit is 1 point for both. Finally you moved back to the 500 yd line and shot 10 rounds slow fire at the B Mod target with black being 40" tall and 20" wide. 1 point for a hit. Slow fire is essentially 1 minute per round, marking windage, and elevation adjustment for each shot. Rapid Fire is 2 magazines of 5 rounds, starting in a standing position and dropping to the kneeling with 70 seconds for all 10 rounds which includes a magazine change. In this course of fire I regularly shot in the high fifties. I have walked off the 200 yard line with 40 points. In the full scoring system where you scored points off of different rings around the same targets, which we used for competition firing I have shot a 246 (roughly a 61 in the hit or miss system which was my personal high).

So where am I going with this? I did this with an M16A2. I cannot imagine doing the same with an AK-47, in fact I have little doubt that it would be a real bitch to hit the Able target at 300 yds with the rifle, owing more to luck than skill. The MOA on most AK-47s are in the 4 MOA range. Additionally the sights are very unforgiving because they are very close set. For firing with real skill they do not hold up. They are perfectly sufficient for point and shoot techniques at 100 yds or less, however I like some real reach. The AK-47 descendants like the AK-74 have rectified these problems and are much more accurate though the iron sights are still unforgiving, with 1-2 MOA.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 01:29 AM

As it uses a rifle cartridge, not really. But there's lots of folks that argue about it.

The first Assault Rifle is the German "Machine Pistol Model of 1944" (MP44) later called the Sturmgewehr (Can I get a confirmation from our German posters that this does, indeed translate to "Assault Rifle"?). It was called a "Machine Pistol" (The European name for a SMG at the time, BTW) due to politics going on. After many reports going about "These wonderful rifles, when can we get more?", they were officially accepted as the StG44.

It's the bastard child of machine guns, rifles, and SMGs. That's one messed up poly-family, let me tell you.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 26 2011, 02:09 AM

As the idea of stormtroopers comes from the German late-WW1 assault forces, i think it is the closest practical translation.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 02:12 AM

The British just called them Canucks, Aussies, and Kiwis.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 26 2011, 03:20 AM

*snickering faceplam*

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 03:30 AM

OK, not that I'm complaining, but why are a number of items still carrying the "Canadian" name in their makers mark? I mean, it's the UCAS now... But we have the Ford Canada Bison RV and the Ares Canadian Sportster Rifle...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2011, 04:58 AM

Marketing.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 26 2011, 05:14 AM

Oh so very much this!

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 07:14 AM

There's enough people that consider themselves Canadian for this to be worth it? Weird.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 26 2011, 08:23 AM

Remember, if you claim a Scotsman is English he will be likely to take you apart on the spot. I suspect there are similar feelings around in UCAS...

Posted by: Fatum Jun 26 2011, 01:03 PM

Oh, right, sorry; apparently, posting past midnight doesn't really help to read carefully.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 03:53 PM

Oh come on, what's a Canadian going to do? Use harsh language?

Although, now that I think of it, considering the "Harsh Wilderness" that Canada is infamous for, it might be a brand used to show how "Rugged" an item is subconsciously, eh?

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 26 2011, 04:48 PM

I'm thinking rather from it's tactical role. The assault rifle combines the rifle's capability for reasonably precise single shots within the typical range for infantry engagements with the SMG's capability of full-auto bursts for close-in combat. AFAIK assault rifles aren't really suited for the machine gun's role of sustained automatic fire.



Yes, it does. Although the first weapon which shows the typical traits of an assault rifle (selective fire, mid-power cartridge) is to my knowledge the Russian Avtomat Fedorova from 1915. IIRC it didn't go anywhere first because of resistance from the czarist military leadership and then because of the revolution.

FWIW, the Bundeswehr doesn't use the term. All rifles (assault or not) are simply classified as "Gewehr" (rifle), hence the "G" designations like G3, G36.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 05:05 PM

What about LMGs like the BAR and Bren (And it's originator, the ZB vz. 26)?

"Machine Gun" had a lot of connotations to it.

Posted by: EKBT81 Jun 26 2011, 05:46 PM

IIRC the Bren, although magazine-fed, had a quick-change barrel. Wasn't it also originally intended to be operated by a crew of two soldiers?

You're right that weapons designations aren't discrete categories. AFAIK US law designates any full-auto capable weapon a "machine gun". Terms also change over time and differ between different languages. I'd still contend that the average assault rifle isn't well suited for providing sustained full-auto fire.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 07:32 PM

Yes, the Bren (And the vz. 26) both had quick change barrels. I have a mid-war training manual (Somewhere, stupid moving provinces) that described how it was to be changed in the middle of combat, and emergency situations when you needed to swap them out quickly. Basically, it summed up to dropping the barrel in a basin of as "Pure water you can find". The BAR, on the other hand... Well, it could and did burst into flames when used too long.

The idea process behind the design of the Assault Rifle is probably not to be found in books, but in the minds of the people who developed them in the first place. So, who wants to have a drinking contest with Mikhail Kalashnikov?

http://www.internationalbeveragenetwork.com/specialreport/kalashnikovvodka/

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 04:46 AM

Both the AUG and the G36 are designed to be usable in a LMG role, no? That is, the same basic frame but a different barrel and perhaps chamber (not sure on the AUG given its bullpup design) to allow for belted ammo.

Still, beta-c and similar allows a normal assault rifle to put a unusually large number of round down range if need be.

Posted by: MYST1C Jun 27 2011, 06:02 AM

Neither G36 nor AUG have a belt-fed configuration. There are heavier barrels for both for use in an LMG role plus larger magazines (42 rounds box magazine for the AUG, 100 rounds drum magazine for the G36).

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 06:57 AM

heh, what i get for going by memory.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 27 2011, 04:01 PM

Sturmgewehr means Storm Rifle, you could loosely translate it as Assault Rifle, I imagine. I haven't used my German in over eight years though... so... meine Deutsche ist schlecht.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 28 2011, 12:07 AM

Sons of Guns tried out the new Beta C-Mags with rapid reloads. The barrel they showed was cherry red. I've also seen another show that took off the foreguard of the M-16 which had a few 30-round magazines put through it and it lit a matchhead with barely a touch.

Droopy hot barrels BAD!I was wondering about that, "Sturm und Drang" being "Storm and Stress", apparently. 'Course, after French classes, I know how bad translating can be.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 28 2011, 03:23 AM

Cyclic rate and realistic cyclic rate usually vary quite a bit. Sure you can put x(n) rounds downrange per minute, but what happens to the materials of the weapon?

Posted by: CanRay Jun 28 2011, 03:31 AM

It also depends on the condition of the weapon in question. That's why cyclic rate is listed as a range.

The Sons of Guns episode, BTW, watercooled the M-16 with the Beta C-Mags, as it was intended for use on a Brown Water Navy Boat. They did it in an interesting way as well. I highly recommend the show. Why said Brownwater Navy didn't just get a Belt-Fed, I don't know, but there you go.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 28 2011, 05:25 AM

Heh, i recall seeing something similar done to a AK-47. I think the wood was burning towards the end.