Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Aria Jun 15 2011, 03:30 PM

I'm pretty sure that by RAW a mage in astral space can't add counterspell D to targets of a spell on the physical plane?!?

I'm also reasonably sure that in previous versions of SR it was possible to intercept spells as the mana was channelled through the astral...

I'm considering a house rule for my Emerging games that allows (an NPC in this case) half counter spell D to be given across the astral divide as they 'astrally jam' the area against hostile spells.

Is this completely out of order / game balance disrupting? I know it runs the risk of mages staying remote from the action and just going in to counterspell / spirit attack so I thought I'd see if anyone has tried this or has strong feelings about how it would work/not work (after all DS is full of people with strong feelings )

Thanks

Posted by: pbangarth Jun 15 2011, 03:40 PM

I think it was a good move to limit a magician's sphere of Sorcery influence to the plane in which he is acting, astral or physical. Having said that, there are already direct or indirect means by which this limitation can be circumvented. Ritual Spellcasting and the Mana Static spell are two examples. But at least these require special knowledge or partners to put into effect.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 15 2011, 06:17 PM

Also, there is the fact that projecting magicians can manifest, or appear on the physical. While they can't actually touch anything, I would allow a manifesting mage to cast (mana spells, at least) and counterspell (I'm not 100% sure whether the RAW already covers this, however), although I would allow enemy casters to target them with mana spells, as well as being an astral entity, similar to dual natured/perceiving characters.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2011, 06:22 PM

Warning: only allow this if your game is insanely magic heavy (i.e. there's a magician and/or spirits on both sides in every single firefight). A manifesting magician is immune to physical harm. Letting him attack others when they can't defend is a BAD idea.

The RAW already covers this, and gives an emphatic "no!"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 15 2011, 06:31 PM

Agreed... Just say NO to manifesting Mages casting Spells on the Physical. Your game will thank you for it.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 15 2011, 07:13 PM

Fair enough.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 15 2011, 11:04 PM

Actually there is no restriction that the mage has to be on the same plane as the entity he tries to protect with counterspelling.

At least the description of Mana Static does not say it is active on both planes. That the spell crates background count however implies it. Make of it what you will. Single plane Mana Static is powerful enough IMHO

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 15 2011, 11:46 PM

I'm of two minds on this as i agree that there is nothing specifically disallowing a mage from counterspelling from the astral, but it does open a slippery slope of if they can counterspell across the astral void why can't they do other things. It also encourages mage/decker-in-the-van syndrome, which I tend to like to curtail. I think the best compromise is to allow dual natured beings and manifesting forms to do so, that way people are at least aware that the counter spelling will be present.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 02:32 AM

If I remember correctly, by the rules, you must be on the same plane as your target to use Sorcery at all. Unfortunately for your argument, Counterspelling is a subset of Sorcery...

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 16 2011, 03:25 AM

Well, you have to be able to see your target to use counterspelling, and since you cannot see physical targets, only their aura/shadow. Mana Static, like every other spell, is active on the plane it's cast on. I don't recall a rule saying background count is identical on the physical and astral plane. You have to be careful about implying anything in RAW.

Posted by: LostProxy Jun 16 2011, 05:55 AM

I would allow them to counter spell while projecting. I mean would that really upset any balance? Now you can scout and counter spell. Woah, that's a game breaker *sarcasm*

Posted by: toturi Jun 16 2011, 07:08 AM

Then by the same token, you cannot counterspell anyone in astral plane either since astral perception is not physical sight.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 16 2011, 07:23 AM

I only recall this for Spellcasting not the whole Sorcery Group. Care to show me where this is written?

Well spells should only work on the plane they are cast on, but according to Mana Static's description it creates Background Count. Unless Background count is purely astral, for which we have no indication, it affects both planes at least in terms of astral visibility.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 16 2011, 07:48 AM

Actually potentially it does affect game balance, say you have a mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling, they can effectively dump their physical stats and never leave home in the meat, that can affect balance.

Posted by: Aria Jun 16 2011, 08:30 AM

But if i limit it to half their counterspelling D then it adds a little bit of versatility but they'd still be better off in the meat?!? It's for an NPC's use mainly and is further confused by them being a dual natured were creature who is projecting in the same room as her body...but if I make it available to an NPC then the PCs need to have access to it too...?!?

Posted by: LostProxy Jun 16 2011, 08:39 AM

That's what I call a potential build, not a game breaker. A mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling isn't any worse then one who focuses on the opposite. Actually it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Why? Because if they focus on counter spelling that means there is an enemy mage. If there is a mage that means the astrally projecting shadowrunner may find himself on his own against a mage manabolting the crap out of him. If he happened to have a lot of spirits on standby that doesn't change the fact that the enemy mage can most likely still call for back up and then you have districts 3-6 lending their spirit support to suppress an astral assault.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 12:46 PM

Two Quotes for you...





In my opinion, Sorcery (Whether it be Casting a Normal Spell, a Ritual Spell, or protecting from such) is limited to the plane that it is used upon. The quotes above support that. If you can only cast upon a specific plane, then you can only protect upon a specific plane. Since a Projecting Magician can only affect the Astral, he may only Counterspell upon the Astral.

Seems pretty easy to me.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2011, 02:04 PM

If that is the case, then why are they explicit about spellcasting and dispelling, but never mention being on the same plane for counterspelling? You're inferring something which doesn't exist because it supports your theory. The quotes you gave (plus the dispelling rules) actually support the opposite view.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 02:36 PM

Becauase they do not have to be explicit. Actually, they do not support the opposite view. Sorcery does not cross boundries. Counterspelling is a part of Sorcery.

Here is a Direct Quote...


Exactly which part of "Must Be On The Same Plane" is unclear?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 16 2011, 02:44 PM

This does not prove anything. It only shows that to dispel sustained spell you have to be on the same plane. It says nothing about whether the magician running interference has to be active on same plane as caster and target to give the target additional dice for his resistance.

As above the lack of this restriction for spell defense may be an omission or it may be the intention of the writers that this is not needed.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2011, 02:47 PM

Ummm... youu do realize that you just quoted the dispelling section, not the counterspelling one, right? It has zero bearing on applying counterspelling dice to resistance rolls.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 02:47 PM

But it Does...

Dispelling is active use of Counterspelling.
Counterspelling is active use of Sorcery.
You MUST be on the same plane to use Sorcery.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If you cannot be targeted by a Spell across the barrier, what makes you think that you can defend against a spell across the barrier? I mean really, that makes abolutely no sense whatsoever.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2011, 02:54 PM

Its easy to understand, and is a perfectly logic and well formed argument. Unfortunately the only thing saying that planar boundaries restrict all sorcery is you. No rule for that has been supplied.

Also, I'm not saying you can defend across the barrier. Its a gray area and I won't make a decision until I have to, at which point I'll rule in favor of the PCs unless they want it to go the other way. From then on out we'll follow that ruling unyil a real one is found or it turns out to be unbalancing.

My argument is against your lack of proof, not in favor of either side.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 03:12 PM

Since you cannot target spells across a barrier, how can you target the spell across the barrier with Counterspelling? It really is as simple as that.

Lack of Explicit Evidence saying that Counterspelling does not Cross barriers does not mean that it does. In fact, it is heavily Implied that it does not. Why should it have to be explicit? We know that active Counterspelling (Dispelling) cannot cross barriers. Why, then, should Passive Counterspelling (Spell Defense) be more powerful, especially since there is no need to defend across the barrier because you cannot even be targeted across the barrier? The explanation is Simple; It isn't.

No worries, though...

Oh, and a Quote here indicates What Sorcery is not capable of doing.



These are the Rules by which Sorcery exists in Shadowrun currently. Note that the Rules do not say Spellcasting, they say Sorcery. Again, Counterspelling is a Subset of Sorcery.

Posted by: pbangarth Jun 16 2011, 03:51 PM

I dunno, page 185 of SR4A, "A protected character must also stay within the magician’s line of sight in order for Counterspelling to be used", is good enough for me. Sight doesn't cross the astral/physical barrier.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 16 2011, 03:51 PM

Also True...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 16 2011, 04:30 PM

Then again sight is impossible on the astral plane. Are you saying Counterspelling does not work on the astral plane?

Posted by: UmaroVI Jun 16 2011, 04:49 PM

I don't think it explicitly spells it out anywhere. I would go with astral magicians can only protect astrally active targets, because that's more consistent with everything else.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2011, 05:25 PM

That's enough for me.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 16 2011, 11:01 PM

Except you know, the whole fact that magicians can cast spells on astral forms while astral themselves, and that astral sight counts as LoS for astral forms, because you know it is astral sight. You must have LoS of a target in order to affect it with magic, if your astral that means you can only affect astral forms, if your physical that means you can only affect physical things, if you're dual-natured you can affect both. The necessary LoS to use counterspelling is the argument that proves you cannot protect physical forms while projecting with counterspelling. Saying anything else would constitute a house rule. If you're trying to say that you can't get LoS with astral sight because it's not sight, despite the fact that you can in fact target astral forms using astral sight, you are trolling.

Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2011, 04:20 AM

How does one translate to the other? How does having astral perception translate into the astral equivalent of physical sight only for astral forms?

One does not necessarily need LOS to a target in order to affect it with magic, is this a general rule (with a quote to back it up, remember - you specified magic, not just sorcery or spellcasting)?

How is requiring LOS the argument that proves that you cannot protect physical forms while counterspelling?

Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2011, 04:28 AM

Can you refresh my memory and give me a quote for a physical character who is dispelling not being able to affect something that is not on the astral plane or vice versa?

I do not see how providing Counterspelling from the astral plane would violate the limits of sorcery. Can you explain?

Posted by: Aria Jun 17 2011, 07:57 AM

...and still nobody has mentioned SR2 or 3...I'm sure that it was possible to intercept spells from the astral?!? Granted I don't believe the counterspelling skill was quite as formulated and I rarely saw it done but still...

My vague recolection is that mage changes his aura to match the target...spell travels through the astral and goes to the matching aura (and could be intercepted at this point)...spell kills target

Didn't work for elemental effect spells as they had a different mechanic...

I know this doesn't really help the argument...and anyway, I intended this to be a house rule not a RAW thing...seems there's mixed feeling as to whether it's a good house rule or not

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 17 2011, 01:04 PM

See Quotes above that I provided. It is explicit that Sorcery cannot cross a boundry. You must be on the same plane that you are affecting.

It violates the Limits on Sorcery because Counterspelling cannot cross a Plane. As fort the Dispelling Question, it is also Explicit in the description of Dispelling (which is wholly unnecessary, as Dispelling is a Subset of Counterspelling, which is a Subset of Sorcery). I provided both quotes above. Here is the Quote for Sorcery which handles all the rest.



And again, I point out that the Limits are on Sorcery as a whole, not just on Spellcasting, otherwise it would be titled the Limits of Spellcasting, which it obviously is not.

Posted by: Aria Jun 17 2011, 02:37 PM

Fair enough...it sounds like it wouldn't be a good houserule ...will forget about it and find other ways to make the PC's lives difficult

Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2011, 04:09 PM

I had missed the portion about Dispelling in your earlier posts, thank you for point it out.

I think my main confusion here is that there is a difference between targeting from the astral and casting a astral spell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 17 2011, 05:13 PM

You cannot target FROM the Astral.
You can target ON the Astral if you are either Perceiving or Projecting
You can target ON the physical if you are not Perceiving or if you are perceiving.
You cannot Target From the Astral to the Physical in any way.

No such thing as an Astral Spell. It is a Mana Spell cast upon the Astral.

Posted by: toturi Jun 18 2011, 12:22 AM

The text for Ritual Spellcasting is quite clear.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 18 2011, 02:57 AM

Yes but that's ritual spell-casting, which is a special and unique snowflake

Posted by: toturi Jun 18 2011, 04:29 AM

It is as unique as one of the 3 skills under Sorcery.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 18 2011, 05:34 AM

Bringing up other editions in a rules discussion is pointless and muddles the various legitimate points others are making, hence why it wasn't brought up.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 18 2011, 04:02 PM

It's special and unique as it is explicitly allowed to get around the LOS limitation. The other two skills do not have such wording and thus are not special enough to break that rule.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 18 2011, 05:30 PM

And is also irrelevant, since you DO NOT NEED A SPOTTER to do Ritual Spellcasting. In fact, that is the Inferior way to do Ritual Spellcasting.

Posted by: toturi Jun 19 2011, 02:10 AM

Inferior to what? And how is it irrelevant to the subject of targeting from the astral?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 19 2011, 03:17 AM

Inferior to the Superior Methods...
A Ritual Spell is not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter. The target MUST BE ON THE SAME PLANE as the Caster. So, as I said earlier, Astral Spotting is Irrelevant to the conversation.

Posted by: toturi Jun 19 2011, 06:37 AM

How is a Ritual Spell not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter? Are the spotter and the target on the same plane if the spotter is astral and the target is not astrally active? Thus as I asked earlier, how is Astral Spotting is irrelevant to the conversation?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 19 2011, 01:58 PM

Spell Targeting takes place at the Caster's Location. All that is required when you are using a Spotter is that the Target be capable of being Assensed. Now, you can do that Physically, as is stated in the Rules, or you can use a Spirit (Who is naturally dual natured, and can assense targets both on the Astral and Physiocal Planes. Spirits are typically used for this because of the time requirements that Ritual Spellcasting demands. Unless you are casting at Forces Greater than 6 (or your Spotter Mage has a Magic Greater than 6, a Mage cannot typically perform this duty). Note that the Spotter is not actually doing anything other than extending the range of the Team's Astral Perception through the Spotter's Assensing of the Target. He is not actually involved in any casting of the ritual. It is irrelevant that the Spotter may be in the Astral at the time, he is not actually a participant for casting the spell (Though he does have a ritual link to the Team). The Spotter is just extending the range of the Ritual Team's Astral Perception (They are, in effect, Astrtally Perceiving at Range) to the target.

Using an Astral Spotter is Inferior because all you really need is a Ritual Link. With a Ritual Link (of any kind) a Spotter is not required.

Posted by: toturi Jun 19 2011, 02:24 PM

The spirit need not materialise, thus it does not need to be dual natured. It is only dual natured only if it materialises. Note that the spotter must be a member of the group casting the spell. It is relevant that the spotter is in the astral at the time as he is actually a participant of casting the spell. The rules do not exclude the spotter from making the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic test. If the spotter is not actually involved in the casting of the ritual, he would not need to resist Drain in the first place.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 19 2011, 02:38 PM

All the spotter does is extend the Astral Perception of the Team to include the Target. That is all that he does. Proximity keeps the Ritual Spotter form participating, since participants must all be in the lodge to participate, and if he is spotting, he is not actually present to participate. How can you paritcipate in a Ritual if you are not present (either physically gone or are astrally projecting) to hear the cues, are not present to coordinate the gathering of the Mana, and are not present to actively participate? Because of this, I do not let a Spotter participate. It is because of this that a Spirit is generally used as a Spotter.

Ritual Casting in a team is rather limited as well, anyways. You can only ever add additional dice to the primary Spellcaster's Pool equal to his Skill Rating. Assuming you had a Lodge of Rating 6, a Leader with a Skill of 6, and 5 other participants, you will only ever be able to add 6 dice to his pool, regardless of the 3 successes each participant likely provided. In fact, having a Hundred members involved in a Ritual means absolutely nothing as teh Leader will still only ever be allowed to add just 6 dice to his pool. Seems like a waste of a Magician's talents to participate in a Ritual Team, beyond the 1 or 2 additional members it takes to max out the Teamwork Dice. Individual Ritual Spellcasting works so much better.

Posted by: toturi Jun 19 2011, 03:38 PM

I disagree. The spotter does more than just create a magical link to the target. He actually can participate in the casting of the spell. Casting a ritual spell only makes a distinction between the leader and additional members of the team, it does not make any distinction between the spotter and other non-leader members. In fact, nothing (on p185 SR4A) stops the leader from being the spotter as well.

All members of the ritual team can participate by the very fact that they were all there in the lodge at the start of the spell, so they have a magical link with each other.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 19 2011, 04:04 PM

I Disagree... You Can't participate if you are not there...
The fact that you MUST be in a Lodge eliminates any feasible chance of the Spotter actually participating. Why is that such a difficult thing to grasp. YOU MUST BE IN THE LODGE to use Ritual Spellcasting, or actively participate in its use. A Spotter is not likely to be in the Lodge when the Ritual is going on. If you can see your target from the Lodge, and still be IN the Lodge, why are you Ritually Spellcasting in the First Place?

Posted by: toturi Jun 20 2011, 02:50 AM

I disagree. The difficulty I have with grasping it is that there is no such rule that you must remain in a lodge to actively participate or that you need to be in the lodge throughout the ritual. You need a lodge for a ritual, you need to be in the lodge at the start of the ritual, but must members of the team remain within the lodge to count towards being in the ritual team, ie make the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic check?

While a lodge is a requirement of ritual spellcasting and its Rating limits the number of participants and the members of the ritual team needs to be in the lodge at the start of the ritual, I have not found the requirement that members of the ritual team has to be in the lodge to participate in the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic check.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 20 2011, 06:15 AM

As with most issues, the book explains all you need to know

From SR4A Pg 184

We know ritual spellcasting does not necessarily require LoS



The rules here are quite clear, in fact I don't think they could have been written any clearer. Tymeaus, you're wrong, please open your book and read the rules. The spotter can target a physical target from the astral plane by assessing them, the rules for ritual spellcasting could not be any clearer on that front. Note that you cannot assense on the physical plane, assessing is purely done on the astral plane, so even if you travel to the target physically(perhaps because they are behind a ward), you still must astrally perceive and assense them.

Ritual spellcasting basically allows you to break the laws of sorcerery in reguards to how spells are targeted in exchange for a much longer cast time. Astral spotters are the default and easiest methods of targeting ritual spellcasting, with material links(as well as sympathetic and symbolic links) being used when a spotter is not practical.



Since dice are rolled when the ritual begins, the spotter would be able to roll dice to add to the leaders roll, they are providing magical energy just like anyone else, though they really should send out a bound spirit(who doesn't need to materialize)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 20 2011, 01:00 PM

Couple of things there, TheOOB...

First. I never said the Spotter had to stay in the Lodge. Go back and look. I quoted the exact same rules you did.

Secondly, I agree, the Spotter can be either Physical or Astral... Again, I did not argue that.

Thirdly, Who says the Dice are rolled at the beginning? No where does it say that. Check the rules, You quoted them. The only individual who has leeway to leave the Lodge (and thus the Ritual Team) is the Spotter, if you are using one.

Fourth, you can assense a Target from the Physical Plane, all you need to do is astrally perceive. Again, check your rules. You should know this. Thus your Spotter masy be either in the Physical Plane, or he may be in the Astral Plane.

Fifth, I never argued that you could not Assense a Physical Target from Astral when Ritually Spellcasting. Go back and check, you will see that again, I agree with you.

Sixth, YOU MUST BE IN THE LODGE TO CAST RITUAL MAGIC. That was what I was pointing out to Toturi. Because you must be IN the Lodge, a Spotter does not get to actually participate in the dice rolling, becuase he is, wait for it, NOT IN THE LODGE. Arguing that you can perform Ritual Sorcery outside of a Lodge is just ludicrous, because it requires you to have one. It is like saying that you can attune to a Focus, and then leave it at home, yet still get the benefit of the Focus. Total Crap...

In the end, You and I agree mostly on the rules. My point of contention with Toturi is that the Spotter may NOT participate in the Ritual, because he is not there. Additionally, My point is that you MUST remain in the Ritual Spellcasting Space (Your Lodge) when performing Ritual Spellcasting for the entire duration of the ritual. Anything else is ludicrous and a load of crap.

Happy Days...

Posted by: toturi Jun 20 2011, 02:29 PM

No, the rules do not say that the participants must remain in the lodge to perform ritual sorcery, thus you do not need to remain in the lodge after you have participated in the dice rolling. The rules on p184-185 state what are the requirements for ritual sorcery. The members of the ritual team all get a roll. Anything else is a house rule and not RAW. You cannot bond a focus, leave it at home and still get the benefit of the focus, because it is RAW that it does not.

I try to adhere as closely to the RAW as I can. Even if it ludicrous and a load of crap. In fact, many a times Total Crap is actually quite RAW. You may not like what RAW smells like, that I understand. RAW is not everyone's favorite scent. But please do not pass off your counterfeit Ewww de House Rule for the Rules As Written in the books.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 20 2011, 02:30 PM

You are free to do so, but you are wrong here... Just Sayin'

You are trying to tell me that the ONE drawback to Ritual Sorcery (That you can be tracked back to a Single, Specific location, throughout the duration of the Ritual) can be completely circumvented by Making your roll in Minute 1 of the Ritual, and then leaving the Lodge to go about your business, with the Ritual Team dispersing to the winds. I call BS. It does not work that way, and I am pretty sure that you know that. The Ritual Takes Hours, and you must participate in that Ritual For Hours. You MUST be in the Lodge for the Entire Ritual. The Roll happens AT THE END of the Ritual (You cannot form a link to the target until the Spotter actually finds the target, and you do not roll until you have completed the ritual (because the roll indicates completion, as you cannot succeed uuntil you have gathered the needed Mana, and cannot "Roll" until you have it, which occurs at the end of the ritual), nothing else makes any sense), and the Spotter may not actually make a roll to assist, because he is not there. Arguing otherwise shows that you really do not understand how Ritual Sorcery Works.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Jun 20 2011, 07:49 PM

What about the quote TheOOB gave from page 193

This passage says to me, that the Spotter MUST be one of the Ritual Spellcasters (or a spirit of theirs). This seems to say that the spotter CAN leave the Lodge and still participate in the Casting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 20 2011, 08:06 PM

No, The Spotter MUST be a Member of the Group, or a Spirit of a member of the Group. The spotter is not a participant in the actual casting of the spell in any way, shape, or form. He is the Eyes of the Group. Nothing More. Again, it is very hard to actually participate in a Ritual if you are not present for the Ritual.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 21 2011, 01:56 AM

Except your making up rules without any text to back yourself up.

Posted by: toturi Jun 21 2011, 02:18 AM

Unlike normal spellcasting where there is a sequence of steps to be followed (step 1, step 2, etc), Ritual Spellcasting does not. I have considered your argument and find that your argument only holds water if we assume additional limitations to ritual sorcery not explicit in the rules.

Therefore Ritual Sorcery does work the way I have stated and I am sure you know it too, just that you are not willing to admit you are wrong. Your argument simply shows you do not have the understanding of Ritual Sorcery as much as you think you have.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 03:02 AM

Please tell me how the Air Spirit Spotter takes an active role in the Actual Ritual Spellcasting. Please, I will wait while you look up any rules you may need. The fact is, it can't. So what makes you think the Magician that is spotting can do so? There does not need to be any additional limitations. To be a part of the Ritual Team, you must be in the Lodge for the Entire time. To be a Spotter, you must leave the Lodge. Ergo, you cannot be apart of the Ritual Team. It really is just that simple.

Happy Shadowrunning...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 03:02 AM

Both of us have quoted the relevant text... so it is already out there...

Posted by: toturi Jun 21 2011, 08:38 AM

I never did claim that the spirit spotter which is bound by a member of the ritual team takes an active role in the Ritual Spellcasting. I claimed that all members of the ritual team makes the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic test. The fact is, the magician can but the spirit cannot as it is not a member of the ritual team. If the spirit is a member of the ritual team, then yes it can do so. There is no limitation that you have to be in the lodge the entire time to be part of the ritual team. Ergo, the spotter can be part of the ritual team, even if he leaves the lodge. It really is this simple.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 12:53 PM

And it really is just that asinine...

I just cannot see how you believe that there is no requirement for the Entire Ritual Team to be present in the Ritual Lodge during the Ritual Spellcasting of the Ritual... Notice the word Ritual there? They take time and effort and certain tools, and this is backed up by the rules in the game. You cannot get around that. Since the Ritual REQUIRES a Lodge to enact, you cannot just eliminate one of the Main Ingredients of the Ritual because you do not like it. It is a Requirement that cannot be gotten rid of, and you must be present to actually take part. It is interesting that you choose not to do so in your game, but it is not how the rules are written.

If you absolutely must have a tool to perform a job, you cannot perform that job if you ditch the tool. Nor can you choose to perform the job if you are not where the tool is located. That is just common sense.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 21 2011, 12:59 PM

I've never seen someone else pushing the idea that the spotter is part of the ritual team. They don't take drain, they don't contribute dice, they simply assense the target for the ritual team. It's always been this way, and I don't see any indication that it's been changed.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 01:16 PM

Exactly...
But then again, this is Toturi... where his NPC's cannot even communicate with each other because they are not listed as having any Language Skills. "Oook Oook" No Offense intended Toturi, it is just an entertaining memory from past posts...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 01:38 PM

How dare you insult the brilliant librarian by comparing him to the inept NPCs!

As for a magician spotter not contributing to the spellcasting, where does it say that? What the book actually says it this:

I can't find anything saying that someone who is part of the group can't contribute to the teamwork test.
You indeed need all the tools for a job but the tools are not always required to be in the same place to complete a job. Sometimes the exact opposite is the case. triangulation for example does not work well if everyone remains in the same place.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 21 2011, 02:06 PM

Because it's a very obvious assumption and writer's probably felt it didn't need to be spelled out? I really don't understand how there can be a push for this. The spotter is not casting. He is a special member of the team whose sole job is to find the targt and assense him so the spellcasting folks can target their slowly built up spell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 02:12 PM

Exactly... Since the Spotter does not remain in the Lodge, how can he actually participate in the Spellcasting.

A ritual requires timing and coordination, and you need to be present in the actual Lodge itself to actively participate. Since you cannot be in the Lodge and Spot at the same time, and since you can no longer coordinate with the rest of the Ritual Team becasue you are no longer present to coordinate (You are spotting, after all), how do you actually expect to contribute to the Ritual? The Ritual REQUIRES you to be in the Lodge (One of the Core Requirements of performing a Ritual). Really hard to perform when you are not there.

Again, Why is this so hard to grasp? It is exceedingly obvious.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 02:20 PM

The rules don't support your claim though. Yes, the spotter has a special job, but the rules don't say it is his only one. Only the bound spirit is forbidden to participate in the casting, since he does not have ritual spellcasting and you cannot default on that skill. A magician (metahuman, critter or free spirit) who spots the target may just as well give some extra power to the spell.

@Tymeaus Jalysfein: where does it say that you have to be in the lodge the whole time? Under requirements it only says that you must have a lodge and the rating of the lodge limits the force of the spell and the number of participants. It does not say that a spotter (spirit or otherwise) does not count towards the participant limit.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 02:52 PM

When you have a requirement for an action, you cannot discard that requirement until the action is completed. That is just common sense, and should need no clarification. Why should they indicate that. It is so blatantly obvious that it needs no saying. Using your method, I don't even need to be IN the Lodge, just own it, and that is just a ludicrous statement. If you need a Lodge to use Ritual Sorcery, you Need it for the entire Ritual. Since the Spotter is NOT in the Lodge, he is not a Part of the Ritual for Spellcasting purposes. Again, anything else is ludicrous.

Or to draw a parallel. You need bullets for your gun to Shoot people. If you run out of Bullets, you can no longer shoot people with that gun. By your explanation though, all I need is to have a Single Round in the gun (I have satisfied the initial conditions for usage), and then I can shoot people endlessly (No longer need to check the conditions of usage).

Anyways...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 04:12 PM

Following your logic ritual spellcasting should be impossible. The spotter (magician or spirit) is required to be part of the group casting the ritual. He must furthermore be in the lodge at the beginning of the ritual and then travel to the target. If anyone is only part of the group as long as he is in the lodge the ritual must fail as soon as the spotter leaves the lodge.
Whether this is ludicrous or not I cannot say, but by RAW the only one who actually has to be in the lodge at any point is the spotter.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 05:30 PM

No it isn't. The spotter dopes not take part in the ritual spellcasting. He creates a link between himself and the group (Thus the requirement that he be there at the beginning of the ritual) and then completes that link when he assenses the Target. He is not casting, he is only spotting. Everyone MUST be in the Lodge, and the spotter is the ONLY one who can actually leave it. There is a difference between the requirement that the spotter must be in the Group (as a whole) and being a member of the Ritual. Not every member of the Group can (olr may) take part in the ritual.

The ritual does not fail when the Spotter leaves, because he is not actively participating in the Ritual, and because the Rules say that he is allowed to leave to spot for the group. Unfortunately for your argument, everyone else must be in the Lodge to contiunue the Ritual, otherwise the ritual fails outright, because the Lodge is an intrinsic part of the ritual itself.

No worries though...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 05:48 PM

I understand that it probably should be that way, but I don't see it in the rules.

Where does it actually say that the group casting the ritual (to which the spotter must belong) is different from the group actively casting the ritual? Where does it actually say that the spotter does not actively participate? We know that bound spirits can't participate for lack of skill, but I don't see this restriction in the rules for everyone else.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 21 2011, 06:24 PM

The rules say that the spotter must be one of the people casting the spell, ergo they roll dice and take drain. That's what the book says end of story. If you want to change the rules for your game, more power to you, but don't try to act like your rules are RAW, and please don't make assumptions about the rules when talking about RAW. Remember that RAW stands for "Rules as Written", and once again, the rules are very clear on this subject.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 21 2011, 07:20 PM

Where does it say that about the spotter?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 08:35 PM

Yes, Please point that out to me TheOOB... I bet that you can't... Because you cannot be part of the Ritual unless you stay in the Lodge...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 08:48 PM

TheOOB quoted it in post http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35172&view=findpost&p=1080504 I did it in post http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=35172&view=findpost&p=1080773. In bold letters even.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 08:58 PM

Me thinks it does not say what you think it does, however...

No Where does it say what you keep implying. Ritual Members MUST be in the Ritual for the entire Ritual. Spotters need not follow that restriction, because they are not actually partaking in the Ritual of the Spell. They only act as Spotters. If you want to have them take the drain, more power to you, but since they are not actually channeling any of the mana, they should not suffer the Drain. Why are they not channeling the Mana? Because they have left the Lodge.

Your evidence is sorely lacking, and no amount of Bolding on your part is going to change that...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 09:17 PM

The spotter:
-must be "a member of the group casting the ritual spell"
-must move to the target i.e. out of the lodge
(quotes above)

The rules do not say that the spotter ceases to be part of the group casting the ritual or that it is allowed for him to quit that group. As such the spotter is indeed casting the ritual spell as "the members of the group casting the ritual spell" are indeed casting the ritual spell. The rules give no indication that it is the members of the group casting the ritual spell except the spotter who are actually casting the ritual spell.

Unless of course you are saying group=/=team. Then all bets are off as the team has never been defined.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 21 2011, 09:21 PM

Does casting begin the same time the ritual begins? Or does the spotter have to create the link first?

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 21 2011, 09:29 PM

Who knows? The rules say nothing definite.

Posted by: Bigity Jun 21 2011, 09:30 PM

Maybe not in this edition. Pretty sure other editions spelled out the sequence of events.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 21 2011, 09:39 PM

Group does not Equal Team...
And yes, they have been defined, The Members of the Team are the ones actually casting the Ritual Spell...
Group usually defines either a Tradition of Magic or an Initiatory Group...

And, Since we are just going in circles, I am calling it quits, for now at least...
Been an interesting Discussion though.

Posted by: TheOOB Jun 21 2011, 11:58 PM

It's right there in black and white. The spotter is part of the group casting the spell. If your not casting the spell, your not part of the group casting the spell, ergo you can't be a spotter.

Should I just quote my post that had all the relevant information from the book, or are you going to ask me to keep repeating information that has already been stated?

Posted by: Bigity Jun 22 2011, 01:08 AM

I concede the point there, but it's rather like saying the guy batting at the plate must be part of the group in the dugout.

The sentence could mean he's one of the spell casters, or he's a member of the group whose doing the spell casting.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 22 2011, 02:22 AM

This One... The Spotter is a Member of the Group (Large Entity), a group of which some of them are performing the Spellcasting (Small Entity). "The individual acting as the spotter must be a member of the group casting the ritual" does not mean that the Spotter is also casting the Ritual. All that means is that he belong to the group from which the Ritual Team is composed.

Anmyways...

Posted by: tagz Jun 22 2011, 02:30 AM

Bigity is dead on. This sentence has two meanings depending on how you look at it. Just like a ton of other rules.

Given that a group just needs to decide which way they want to go with it. Neither is wrong by RAW as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 22 2011, 03:10 AM

I dunno, that seems like a stretch. Does ritual sorcery even require everyone be in the same Magical Group? If so, would the Magical Group really be said to be "the group casting the ritual"? It doesn't sound like something you'd say, especially if it's a huge (membership) group with many local chapters.

Posted by: toturi Jun 22 2011, 03:47 AM

Either interpretation would be fine if the portion of the rules that deal with making the Ritual Spellcasting test differentiates between members of the group (whole group) and members of the group that is doing the spellcasting. The only distinction in that section that I saw (IIRC) is between the leader and other members (the spotter is not excluded from this "other members").