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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Rigging...
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jun 25 2011, 06:19 PM
So I've seen the idea put out here and there, and I'd like to explore it - if I were to get a stirrup system in my char, would I be able to rig myself (and get, say, five IPs)? I think this could be a fun character concept, and mechanically it'd be an interesting option - if there are there adequate rules for it.
What would this look like to play? I've never played a rigger, so I'm not up on the particulars of how they run - is there a guide to playing a rigger somewhere?
Last, how would this interact with, say, a paraplegic or quadriplegic character? Would they be able to move under their own power?
Posted by: Harboe Jun 25 2011, 06:25 PM
No.
No amount of rules abuse will let you use vehicle/drone modfication rules to make your physical body rigging-compatible.
Any sane GM would smack you over the head with SR4A (thicker and with more pages than SR4) and tell you to be sensible or get out.
---
Now, buying a drone and modding it to the max and rigging it, while playing a paraplegic? Sure. Search "+Wheelchair +rigger +drone" or something similar to get the first hundred threads dealing with such things.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jun 25 2011, 06:28 PM
No amount of rules abuse will let you use vehicle/drone modfication rules to make your physical body rigging-compatible.
Any sane GM would smack you over the head with SR4A (thicker and with more pages than SR4) and tell you to be sensible or get out.
---
Now, buying a drone and modding it to the max and rigging it, while playing a paraplegic? Sure. Search "+Wheelchair +rigger +drone" or something similar to get the first hundred threads dealing with such things.
I'm talking about making myself a biodrone, using the stirrup system implant from Augmentation.
I'm well aware of both the search function and the Wheelchair Rigger Archetype, thanksyamuch.
Posted by: Harboe Jun 25 2011, 06:44 PM
Wait, making yourself a biodrone, or making yourself into a biodrone.
Because, while I will admit to the possibility of the latter being RAW, it makes no sense that interfacing with your own body through a commlink/datajack and stirrup would make you faster than when your brain is communicating directly with your body.
Now, as weird as the concept sounds to me, I have to ask: Is there any other reason for you thinking this concept is interesting apart from 5IP?
Because I can't see how "I use my brain to control my body" is intriguing.
In fact, I'm quite convinced that every other character in your group will live up to that*?
* Barring AIs, Free Spirits or other creatures that cannot truly be said to possess either a body or brain.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jun 25 2011, 06:58 PM
Making myself into a biodrone. And while, yes, it wouldn't make sense for that to be quicker, I'm just wondering if that's how it would work by the rules. And I guess it could be made to make sense if the transmission medium is superconducting, then it would transmit information much faster than nerves. But that's speculation on my part.
As to my interest in this concept - I'm intrigued by the five IPs, yes, but also in the thematic possibilities of someone who was para/quadriplegic without the stirrups, and the philosophical difference between using a chair and using the 'ware to achieve similar effects. And the possibility of the character being trans(meta)humanist and interested in becoming an infomorph, and this being a step closer to that goal. So it's not just "using my brain to control my body" but rather using my brain to control a body, which happens to be mine. And the possibility of having cloned bodies with different 'wares, sorta' different loadouts, if you will, is interesting, and brings some intriguing ethical issues into play, which could be fun to explore.
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 25 2011, 07:11 PM
FYI, you can only get 4IP in the flesh. You could spend the 5th pass doing something in the Matrix, but you cannot, under any circumstances, act five times per turn in physical reality.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jun 25 2011, 07:27 PM
So if I'm a rigger with five matrix IPs commanding a regular drone, I can only make it act four times?
Posted by: Smokeskin Jun 25 2011, 08:01 PM
The stirrup interface comes with MWB, so why is there an issue with doing it?
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jun 25 2011, 09:28 PM
I don't know, but I seem to recall there being issues with trying to make one's self a biodrone and then rigging one's own body.
Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 07:18 AM
All 5 can be used in meat. Rigging actions ARE matrix actions, as shown by the bonus from hotsim. It's been discussed.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29138&hl
Posted by: Lansdren Jun 26 2011, 07:45 AM
Technically you get five but remember that one of them will be used driving the body as it is a drone and thats the rules.
Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I prefer to just take the crash test if it comes to that though.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 26 2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah, not like a body is going to take a lot of damage from crashing anyways... So you fall. A bit embarrassing, but you are not going to kill yourself doing it. Of course, it helps if you have enough dice to reliably succeed at the crash test, so it becomes a non-issue.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 26 2011, 04:15 PM
Honestly, I'm not convinced (by the repeated arguments) that you can get 5 'meat' IPs through rigging (though I don't care enough to fight about it, hehe).
I'm also not convinced that biodrones and real drones are similar in every way… we once had an argument about whether biodrones can take freaking vehicle mods.
One issue of self-rigging is that there's no RAS in SR4 (the thing that turns off your brain-to-body connection). Instead, you're simply at a -6 to physical actions while in VR. So, you have to wonder if there are fun problems caused by having two simultaneous direct neural connections to your body. 
Posted by: ggodo Jun 26 2011, 08:07 PM
I'm also not convinced that biodrones and real drones are similar in every way… we once had an argument about whether biodrones can take freaking vehicle mods.
One issue of self-rigging is that there's no RAS in SR4 (the thing that turns off your brain-to-body connection). Instead, you're simply at a -6 to physical actions while in VR. So, you have to wonder if there are fun problems caused by having two simultaneous direct neural connections to your body.
This is my new reason for preventing Longbow from doing this.
Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:35 PM
The self rigging? If anything, I just wanted that as a joke. Why would I want to rig a suboptimal body? What I really need to do is convince my street sammy bud to put access to his cyber on his PAN.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 26 2011, 08:53 PM
Eh. Formally, the Stirrup Interface only works on animals. So if the question is, "Can I do this in RAW?", the answer is No.
Setting that aside, you have an interesting issue: biofeedback. Every time your meat body takes damage, you get biofeedback, which can also again hurt your meat body. Even if that doesn't start a cycle, it still risks more damage than not-rigging you body.
I do like the general idea, being in a sort of detached, cerebral matrix space, only casually directing your body to go here and there, floating in cyberspace most of the time.. But the technology isn't ready for it yet.
Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:10 PM
I agree about the feedback loop. Then again, I don't want to rig my body in combat. I don't even have hardened armor!
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 02:44 AM
Wait. Why the hell would you want five initiative passes (a combat thing) outside of combat (where it doesn't matter)?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 02:47 AM
Parser error, please retry.
'I don't want to rig my body *in combat*';
'I don't want to rig *my body* in combat'!
Posted by: Udoshi Jun 27 2011, 09:20 AM
You'll hardly ever get 5 meat IPS via rigging, though.
If you're rigging, you still need to burn a complex action to control your ride every turn.
Cyborgs are the only thing that gets to ignore that rule.
Posted by: Summerstorm Jun 27 2011, 09:57 AM
And everyone confident enough to make the (very easy) crash test...
and everyone who just stand still (if the GM allows it, not RAW)
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 01:47 PM
'I don't want to rig my body *in combat*';
'I don't want to rig *my body* in combat'!
If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 01:55 PM
He said he wants to rig the team's trollsam.
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 01:59 PM
Actually no. What he said was, he wants to hack his sam's gear and have what little good that does him. It's not like he can aim a gun that way.
(If you disagree with this statement and believe that a cybered character can be controlled like a drone without a stirrup interface then you are either dumb or haven't read any of the "http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33738&hl=hacking++cyberware" threads).
Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 02:21 PM
We tend to wing it quite a bit at our table, so I unthinkingly mentioned rigging through a single cyberware arm that technically isn't even a full fledged node.
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 02:27 PM
Yeah, no. That's not kosher.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 27 2011, 03:05 PM
Aside from control issues, you also have the problem at least in hot sim of basically taking double damage from attacks.
Once to the meat body, once from the feedback.
-k
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 04:12 PM
Draco18s, if you can nitpick the difference between rigging the sam and controlling the sam, then you didn't need to ask about rigging his *own* body.
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 04:35 PM
At what point did I say that the two were different?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 04:41 PM
Jeez, forget it. You first misunderstood the 'my body in combat' thing, and then you asked, "If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?" Clearly, you were confused about who was rigging what, when, and why. I'm glad it got straightened out.
Posted by: Draco18s Jun 27 2011, 04:53 PM
You first misunderstood the 'my body in combat' thing, and then you asked, "If he's not rigging his own meat in combat, what's the point of having the stirrup interface at all?" Clearly, you were confused about who was rigging what, when, and why. I'm glad it got straightened out.*Rereads*
Derp. I'll be up to normal cognitive legs. I mean levels. By Thursday or so. I didn't sleei[ much/well this last weekend (but had so much fun).
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jul 1 2011, 12:59 AM
So, if I were to get permission from my GM to have a stirrup system (an experimental model for metahumans) then what would be the optimal way to rig myself? Chrome? Technomancy? Path of the Adept? I may have a game soon, so it'd be cool to have a character ready, and this sounds like an interesting concept (at least to me). Also, what's the state of cloning tech in the sixth world? With sufficient nuyen would I be able to clone and equip several different iterations of 'me' in order to have different abilities/less risks for different runs?
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 02:43 AM
Chrome. Any magic/not-magic-magic route you take will take a huge hit from the stirrup system (it's what, 2 essence?)
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 1 2011, 06:56 AM
2.5 / 3.5 / 5.5 for ratings 1 / 2 / 3.
To be fair, it includes MBW...
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 1 2011, 12:58 PM
To be fair, you only need move by wire 1 to rig something and use your matrix passes.
MWB is just a nice side benefit of that.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 01:54 PM
Right. 2.5 essence. Good luck going the magic route when you're gimped by 3.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 02:21 PM
Why? We have a very exceptional mage in our group that started out with a 3 point Essence Penalty (Wired 2 and Reaction Enhancers 2, and a few other minor things). 300 Karma later, he is one of the strongest casters in the group, with a Magic of 6 and 5 Initiate Grades. It can be done, just not by those who want to be the most powerful character ever at the start of the game. *shrug*
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 1 2011, 02:29 PM
God, Tymeaus, *every* time. Most people aren't interested in waiting for five bloody Initiations to finally be their character. With 3 whole Magic, what exactly could this primo rigger do?
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 1 2011, 03:18 PM
With the time and karma spent on recovering Magic to the point of a starting level caster (for PC values of "starting" of course) you could have become something so much more powerful than a precious and unique snowflake...
Personally, I'd go for Chrome rigger. I like the idea of a guy tinkering with drones who occasionally gets to show off his latest mad machines. The kind of guy who likes machines more than living people.
Sure, Technomancers can be good riggers too, but I just don't like them because their loss of Resonance for making themselves more machine-like feels wrong to me.
As for power.. I think all three methods can be powerful enough to be playable, but in the case of magic-based riggers it feels very forced, like you're twisting the game system to do something it doesn't really want to do, wasn't really meant to do (but just happens to allow). And Analyze Device is just cheesy.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 03:43 PM
Most people aren't interested in waiting for five bloody Initiations to finally be their character. With 3 whole Magic, what exactly could this primo rigger do?Not everyone has to be SuperWhammaDyne out of Chargen. Why do you have to wait for Five Bloody Initiations to be your character. Why can't you start out as your character (as he did) and then improve with time?
Hell, the Character I am playing now has a Casting Magic of 3. He is Way more fun to play than someone who has Magic 6. It is about the Role that you play, not the Dice that you Roll.
After all, When you are the Best in the World out of Character Generation, there is no where for you to go, no hill for you to climb.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 03:51 PM
That really is funny to me. You are assuming that the goal of the character is to be either very powerful, or a precious and unique snowflake. Why does everyone make that assumption?
Sure, Technomancers can be good riggers too, but I just don't like them because their loss of Resonance for making themselves more machine-like feels wrong to me.
As for power.. I think all three methods can be powerful enough to be playable, but in the case of magic-based riggers it feels very forced, like you're twisting the game system to do something it doesn't really want to do, wasn't really meant to do (but just happens to allow). And Analyze Device is just cheesy.
Yes, Analyze Device is Cheesy. Fortunately, it is easily controlled... I prefer either the Chrome Solution, or the Technomancer Solution. Both can be very solid builds.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 04:04 PM
I have yet to be in a game that lasts to 300 karma
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 1 2011, 04:12 PM
The best reason to want to be good (enough!) straight from CharGen: I want to be able to do fun stuff right away, instead of basically spending the first X sessions waiting for enough XP to make my character concept start paying off.
Don't mistake this for powergaming. I like to be powerful enough to have the feeling that I can make an impact, but I don't need to squeeze every drop for that.
The flip side of my emphasis on doing, now, is that I tend to buy lots of small powers during the game instead of saving up a long time for big abilities. I buy abilities related to what my character is working on right now. Call it immersion
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 04:22 PM
Don't mistake this for powergaming. I like to be powerful enough to have the feeling that I can make an impact, but I don't need to squeeze every drop for that.
The flip side of my emphasis on doing, now, is that I tend to buy lots of small powers during the game instead of saving up a long time for big abilities. I buy abilities related to what my character is working on right now. Call it immersion
All viable options. I just do not see why having a Magic Rating of 3-4 is not Good (Enough). I have found that it is perfectly good. Is it as powerful as you can be? No, of course not. But it IS good enough. The character I play makes a huge impact on the game, just not in direct combat. For direct combat, I have options other than spells.
Looks like we mostly agree, though, so no worries.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 04:28 PM
Oh, sure, there are viable low-magic builds. Generally though they don't involve buying magic up to 6 and then dropping it back down to 3.
Oh, and low spellcasting magic isn't the same as low magic. The former involves the remainder having gone into adept powers, which are very much worth it. The latter means it went into cyberware, which was purchased with the extra expenditure of build points. 1 Essence is generally considered "ok," 2 is "workable, depending" and 3 is "too much."
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 05:13 PM
Oh, and low spellcasting magic isn't the same as low magic. The former involves the remainder having gone into adept powers, which are very much worth it. The latter means it went into cyberware, which was purchased with the extra expenditure of build points. 1 Essence is generally considered "ok," 2 is "workable, depending" and 3 is "too much."
Depends upon your Concept I guess... Our Mage decided that sacrificing those 3 points of magic was okay for him. It worked out well.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 05:20 PM
Generally it depends. What'd he spend 3 Essence on?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 05:33 PM
Wired 2, Reaction Enhancers 2, Alpha Grade.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 05:35 PM
Ehh. As a mage I'd have done those via spells, but they're not bad as chrome.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 05:58 PM
His original character did those with spells... He wanted a change... Seemed to work well for him...
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 06:03 PM
Fair. It works, but it's expensive.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 06:08 PM
No Argument there.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 1 2011, 07:04 PM
It's not merely having 3 Magic, it's also having 3 Magic after spending 6 Magic worth of BP on it, plus the cost of the Stirrup. *shrug* Not my idea of a good time, nor of a 'fun' flexible, capable character.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 08:18 PM
I would hazard a guess that you have never played such a character. So, How would you know?
Besides, it was not a Stirrup; Just a Wired 2 and Reaction Enhancers 2.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 1 2011, 08:33 PM
Except a Stirrup is what we're talking about!
If you're positing that I have to experience things before I'm allowed to have opinions or ideas about them, then there's no point in talking.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jul 1 2011, 10:00 PM
I wasn't so concerned with the Adept option, frankly, what I guess I'm wondering is could I build an effective TM who rigs himself? If I could, what roles would he be capable in, out of the gate? My goals for this character would be to be a competent hacker, gun-bunny/street sam, and maybe a face if I can fit it in there - if it helps to know.
Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 10:08 PM
Gun Bunny and Techno-Hacker and Face and Rigger?
You're trying to hyperspecialize into Jack of All Trades, and the rules specifically forbid that.
Also, there's no way in hell you're going to be able to rig your body and use it as a drone more effectively than doing it the Natural Way. Assuming your GM lets you do it at all.
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 1 2011, 10:14 PM
I think i could build this, if i was shooting for 10-12 dice in the primary areas.
Probably minus the techno aspect.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jul 1 2011, 10:22 PM
Well, I wouldn't say specializing in everything - my GM usually limits us to native dice pools of 12-14, at least initially, so that means we can sorta do that. I'm just wondering if it's feasible though. But what could be done well with this concept, assuming it works (which I am)?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 10:25 PM
If you're positing that I have to experience things before I'm allowed to have opinions or ideas about them, then there's no point in talking.
You know me better than that. My point was that having an opinion is fine and dandy, but you have no real basis to compare against if you have not played a character of the type discussed. Try it sometime, you might be surprised. I know that I was...
No worries, though, Yerameyahu...
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 1 2011, 11:38 PM
You're trying to hyperspecialize into Jack of All Trades, and the rules specifically forbid that.
No, they just make it difficult.
-k
may play a Gunbunny/Hacker/Face/Rigger for Missions. Maybe.
Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Jul 2 2011, 11:02 PM
-k
may play a Gunbunny/Hacker/Face/Rigger for Missions. Maybe.
How would you do that, if you were also going to rig yourself (if such were made possible by the GM)?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 2 2011, 11:41 PM
No, without the (mythical) self-rigging.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 3 2011, 04:55 AM
Well, depending on how you look at it, technically the character in question that everyone "sees" is rigged.
But no, the character in question cannot have any cyber, so she can't rig herself. Rigging an anthroform drone on the other hand is entirely possible. She just plays it off as her "real" body while she hides. When the movie "Surrogates" came out, I laughed out loud.
Start with a Mystic Adept. You'll be at least half Adept, so your spellcasting and conjuring will be okay but not spectacular. Adept powers can boost skills, especially social skills, into the stratosphere. Pro Tip: Gunnery isn't a Combat Skill, so Improved Ability (Gunnery) is cheap. From the Mage side comes the ability to put things into wonderful Spell Foci.
As a Rigger, you can use the cheese of not having to have any other attack skill except Gunnery. Also note that since most of your activities will be run through drones, your meat body attributes mostly don't matter. So that means more BP to put into other things such as Hacking or Vehicles and such.
There's also a number of skill boosting equipment options out there, especially for Matrix stuff.
The particular build I am running has Social skills in the 16-24 dice pool, Matrix skills in the 14-18 range, Gunnery in the 18-20 range, and Rigging pools in the 14-18 range. Plus Spellcasting and Conjuring in the 8-12 range and getting better due to Initiation. I did "waste" some BP on roleplaying stuff, though, so if I pushed it I could probably squeeze more dice in.
Throw in an Edge pool of 6 and well...
If I WAS going to rig myself, well, it'd actually probably worsen the build as less Essence means less Magic, and my build is heavily Magic dependent. Which reminds me, next Initiation I need to take Cleansing, Background Count hurts.
Plus taking double damage every time I got hit does not appeal to me.
-k
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 3 2011, 04:58 AM
You're still much too proud of all that cheese.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 3 2011, 05:02 AM
I am proud, because all the cheese is both RAW and RAI. I don't particularly get impressed by builds that violate RAI to do what they do.
The only rules-grey area is the rigger cocoon I mentioned before, and that has no impact on the dice pools as mentioned even if it was disallowed.
I will note that the build is expensive as hell, nuyen-wise, so I had to spend a ton of the BP on cash.
-k
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 3 2011, 05:27 AM
There's no such thing as RAI cheese; that's just broken writers. But I was just teasing. All rigging is super-powerful, regardless of what else the character can do.
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 3 2011, 05:41 AM
I'd do it with a cyborg. Self rigging at its finest.
Charisma 6, influence at 4, empathy ware 6 running on some high rating sensors. That covers basic facing. Gun-bunnying is easy with Gunnery. Hacking is cheap. Totally doable.
I could probably do it with a technomancer using charisma synergy and a point of ware. Once you're a hacker, it doesn't take a lot to be a good rigger too. And hey, elves get both agility and charisma.
Posted by: Aku Jul 3 2011, 09:59 AM
I'm not sure gunnery not being a combat skill, for purposes of Improved ability "RAI"
Posted by: Bodak Jul 4 2011, 07:19 AM
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 4 2011, 09:04 AM
I would classify a smartgun as electronics (OR 4) rather than a full-on computer, but that's a matter of interpretation.
I guess I think it's just cheesy to rely on spells that increase your understand of a device to not so much replace your skill, but even double it. I mean, if you had a skill of 7 in pistols, what is Analyze Device going to tell you about a gun that you don't already know?
Also, what is knowing how a gun works going to matter if you don't have hand coordination or any sense of aiming?
It just feels like they haphazardly slapped a game effect on the spell that goes way beyond what it should.
Posted by: Bodak Jul 4 2011, 11:50 AM
Also, what is knowing how a gun works going to matter if you don't have hand coordination or any sense of aiming?
But yes, knowing all about a gun shouldn't be very useful if you're largely incapable of firing it in the first place (Quadriplegic or Blind, for example).
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 4 2011, 12:28 PM
Well, they deliberately moved it from being a combat skill in earlier editions to being a vehicle skill.
The real only reason to move it out of the 'combat skills group' into the 'vehicle skills group' is so that either a) it does NOT share in any Combat Skill modifiers, or b) so that it DOES share in any Vehicle Skill modifiers.
So I don't have a problem believing this was intended.
-k
Posted by: Aku Jul 4 2011, 01:03 PM
The real only reason to move it out of the 'combat skills group' into the 'vehicle skills group' is so that either a) it does NOT share in any Combat Skill modifiers, or b) so that it DOES share in any Vehicle Skill modifiers.
So I don't have a problem believing this was intended.
-k
Well, according to my copy of SR4A, gunnery uses ranged combat rules, (P171, the one with the fugly faced chick with a hot bod on the back of a bike(in case you have a problem seeing the page number
), so those arent quite believable reasons, to me.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 4 2011, 02:28 PM
Maybe they just felt it was more appropriate, since most of the time it's only used for vehicle-mounted weapons? I'm not sure there was really any great plan behind it.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 4 2011, 03:33 PM
Whatever it's used for, it's clearly combat.
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