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Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 07:27 AM

So I'm planning to start sniping anything that can astrally perceive, using drones. Great Dragons are near the top of my list since they're so damn pretentious.

My GM probably doesn't want to spend all day looking up spells for the dragons to circumvent this, and nobody enjoys GM fiat, so does anyone have some suggestions for him when the time comes?

Posted by: ggodo Jun 26 2011, 07:54 AM

Assuming I haven't been looking up spells since the Lofwyr Incident.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 07:59 AM

DUN, DUn, Dun!
I didn't succeed that time though. And dragons are the sort of creature that you can afford to use hand of god for.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jun 26 2011, 08:26 AM

What are the drones carrying? How are you going through 20 real hardened armor not just ItNW? How many drones are there?

Posted by: Summerstorm Jun 26 2011, 08:31 AM

Yeah... i don't think that heavy artillery, vehicle-lasers and anti-tank rockets count as "sniping" *g*

Also: GREAT dragons? You do know they are loaded with anchored spells, have spirit companions AND the power to warp fortune?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:33 AM

Don't worry. I'm optimizing the heck out of them before hand. I guess a few stormclouds for redundancy with chameleon and suppressed barrets and APDS ammo mounted on internal flexible weapon mounts. Worst case, I'll just air drop some explosives. 4 kilos of R15 plastics will do a hefty 30 DV.

Do assault cannons fall in the vehicle weapon category, or normal category? A gauss is always the best option for anti-armor, provided it's accessible.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:36 AM

Yeah, I hate the fortune warping. The upside is that one of their abilities takes a simple action (thus can't be used on my turn) and both require LOS. The best part is that both can be completely circumvented with a full auto grenade launcher, since hits only reduce scatter, and I can still hit with high scatter.

Also, I thought it was decided that rockets aren't all that great? Against structures it's a different story, but on normal enemies I don't see the draw.

Posted by: Summerstorm Jun 26 2011, 09:03 AM

Eh, ok then.

A GREAT western dragon, who decides to use his majestic form to travel through the air.

Let's see. He has at least:
Bod: 25, Reaction: 11, 20 Points Hardened Armor

It is VERY likely that he has an active armor spell too, maybe a combat sense spell. And maybe hightened attributes. Because he casts with at LEAST 30 dice against drain and at least 25 dice for successes, we can safely assume about 10 points more armor (not hardened though). This is total minimum... i would normaly expect quickened spells overcast and edge-enhanced with a crapload of hits.

You need to surprise him, or he will likely dodge (or at least diminish your hits GREATLY).

If you shoot him with a anti-vehicle loaded Assault Canon (around 10 / -6 AP), you can't get him.
The MP-Laser III would be 9 / -half... You still need a boatload of successes to come to 16 damage against his armor of 15. After that he will likely negate 12+ points of damage... if he misses his rolls he will have AMPLE supply of edge to reroll misses.

EDIT: Ah, and this is just pure raw, damage... there are anchored spells (Maybe he has a huge illusion for when he is injured), healing magic, shielding spirits who take the blows for him, Spirit pacts (there is one where you can exchange karme for quickhealing... no questions asked) It is nearly impossible to do anything against a GREAT dragon. I suggest you start with a young one *g* But yeah... you might want to prepare for a fun manhunt at you, after you got one *g*.
To take him down you need to fill his ~20 boxes condition monitor before he can cloak (spirits using concealment) and heal up.

I REALLY recommend a surprise attack with vehicle-weapons (The Heavy Howitzer in war makes short work with ANYTHING in a direct hit)... or luring him somewhere with a prepared explosive charge. (Problem is they REALLY are not stupid)

Posted by: StevenAngier Jun 26 2011, 09:19 AM

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. For they are scaly and their breath smells like rotten thuna (or was that for cats with dermal problems? can't remember).

Great Dragons aren't meant for sport. They are plot devices. You either kill em off by overwhelming battle prowess or get banged in the behind so hard that sitting is simply not a matter of pain versus tolerance any longer but more of an impossibility. Great Dragons are GM fiat, hands down. Get yourself something gamebreaking and let your GM handle the cool action sequences. Just tell Pulsar that this particular specimen has said something very rude about artificial intelligences. Maybe he will use his THOR against him to compensate the lack of it's testicles.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:22 AM

Yeah, I probably can't do it without surprise. I'd say my best bet is to abuse explosive stacking and chunky salsa.

Additionally, I'm looking mainly for the dragons that mingle with humans. Ones like Hestaby and Lofwyr are probably more likely to be in human form.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:25 AM

Heck yes.
I do worry about the fact that these guys are plot devices, which is why I will most likely postpone any serious efforts against one until our last session.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:30 AM

This is where you abuse absolute rules. For example, the memories lost through laes exposure cannot be regained through any means. Thus I could create an unwitting double agent who plants directed charges in the dragon's shiny new armored walls. Well, that's the ideal circumstance, but I need to figure out how to make a dragon let me mod his home first.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 26 2011, 09:42 AM

Should've taken Knowledge: Structural Design. Or enough Con to make someone think you did.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:45 AM

I did take knowledge: security tactics. That's gotta count a bit for making secure walls.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 26 2011, 09:54 AM

I thought that would be more "I think we should put a wall there" not "You should build a wall like this from this for best structuralness"

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:56 AM

You're the GM. Suddenly your thought becomes reality.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 26 2011, 10:20 AM

Bring the Dragon to you, mwuahahahahahah. With an all expenses paid trip, five days/four nights, at the brand new hotel and spa. Make use of lots of contacts and cash to get this project rolling. Use the Advanced Lifestyle rules to make the creme de la creme of hotels, if only for one month. Make sure you have investors, whether they be people who want the hotel to succeed or want the dragon to die. Then you rip a plot out of Stargate and make the building the bomb. Not explosives on the wall but explosives ARE the wall. Or possibly the insulation. Invite many big wigs. If you have a death list, all of them. Or people who's mass murder would cause mass hysteria in the world/country/global market/whatever-the-hell. Once the target(s) arrive, get settled, and think about hitting the pool...... BOOM!

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:36 AM

Lol. That may be a way to do this with obstructing the game flow. Everyone loves investors, and this way the entire team could participate.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 10:39 AM

He'll just MediaBlitz him, which is instant win (because Horizon cannot possibly lose, they're Google and Facebook and Apple rolled together).

OP, if you plan to go against great dragons? Stop worring ho to snipe one, and start worring how to get in sniping distance. Without it's n+10 henchmen getting to you first. If your GM just lets you, he's doing it wrong.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:45 AM

I thought weather balloons with invisible guns were a good start.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 10:55 AM

You do realise SR dragons spend most of their time in their hoard, right? Which usually is in a cave?

Posted by: Glyph Jun 26 2011, 11:52 AM

That's how I would prefer to run a great dragon, too. Not as something that is invincible because it has a zillion levels of initiation and no-sells everything, but as a creature that survives because it has bound spirits, minions, and lots of resources, as well as a superhuman, slightly alien intelligence.

I mean, forget about how it can soak heavy weapon damage. Damien Knight, for example, would probably be pretty squishy if you nailed him with a missile or full auto-fire. But would your character be able to get the opportunity to do that?

And honestly, the GM would be justified to drop the hammer down with no mercy. Unlike some, I don't have a problem with characters going after targets such as immortal elves, great dragons, underworld factions, or corporate CEOs. I think the theme of Shadowrun is that no one is invincible (which is why I hate crap like Ghostwalker invading Denver, or modules that tell you such-and-such a character cannot be killed). But it's one thing for the characters to take on such a foe in an epic campaign, and another thing for a character to decide to attack major NPCs more or less for the LULZ.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 26 2011, 11:55 AM

SR Great Dragons are not just GM fiat, but they have several unique abilities that combine to basically GIVE them GM fiat, RAW and RAI. They are dual-natured entities, and as such are active on both the spirit and normal plane, perceiving both. Others have listed the MINIMUM stats for them (expect at least double for any named great dragons). Additionally, they probably have as much edge as you and your friends combined, and if they DO die, they can drop edge to not only survive the way a runner can, but leave a believable corpse behind to fool you, chunky salsa or not. The only thing your actions would POSSIBLY do is distract the dragons from whatever machinations they have amongst each other and give them a conversation piece in the form of your petrified body, kept on display and still alive in an 'I have no mouth but must scream' manner.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 12:47 PM

I agree. Also, I'd drop the full weight of possibilities of spying on the characters, and make them pay dearly for each and every oversight on their part. And that's not just for dragons, or immortal elves (though for pissing off immortal elves ... be certain to never, ever leave behind ritual samples anywhere, unless you want to try out your close combat skills against the Hunt). It's also be valid if you go after Villiers, Malmstein, Knight, Johnny Spinrad, Bernal, Nakatomi, Vogel, Anne Penchyk (who also is good for testing how you do against sneak attacks by high level combat spirits btw), Lord Marchment, or even most reasonably competent governments or high level conspiracy.


I disagree. Great Dragons are killable if they expose themselves. Greats can be taken out by a bunch of well-equipped and prepared fighter jets easily, orlarger AA missiles.

Point is, GDs know this. And will not expose themselves. So even while you do have a chance to best one in a reasonably fair combat, it's not gonna happen. Because they do not fight fair.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 03:32 PM

All I have to say is when you target a GD, and you overlook a single detail at any stage of the planning/campaign (and yes taking out a GD should take years of in game planning and maneuvering), other GD's, Immortal Elves, and any other power player who could benefit is going to begin actions to make you just another pawn. What you are talking about is the kind of thing that goes bad in a hurry. You have drones? S-K has more, especially anywhere Lofwyr would be. You have guns? S-K has more especially anywhere Lofwyr would be. The only way to get to a GD is to take out his defenses, and in this case that mean taking down S-K (the shell), to get to Lofwyr (the not so soft meat inside). Good luck, especially as a farewell kind of afterthought action.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 26 2011, 03:40 PM

I think that the only way you're able to take out a GD or IE, is if another GD or IE is secretly manipulating you to do so. Because otherwise there's no way they won't know beforehand through Divination, greater-than-Earthdawn style future sight magic, several intelligence services and spirit spies. You need someone on that level who's using his own connections to hide you in order to get close enough undetected.

And if they ever spot you (good chance), it only takes them a single second to cast a Force-more-than-thou spell to instantly vaporise you.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 04:09 PM

Also, you are good and crunchy and the ketchup factory delivers.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 26 2011, 05:33 PM

I think when it comes to Great Dragons defending themselves GM fiat is perfectly reasonable and adequate. The GD is a superhuman being intellectually far above everything we humans could even begin to comprehend, while I, as a GM, am not. Whatever a pc might throw at one of them: The dragon of course expects it and is perfectly prepared to deal with it. Great Dragons are the top of the global foodchain. They are playing chess-games with megacorps as pawns. You will never be able to outsmart one of them. And what CanRay said.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 06:02 PM

I must say, I am not all for this notion of Dragons Are Better Than You. If you ever get to directly fight a dragon, I'd say roll it. Big if, of course since getting in that spot in the first place (on your terms, not nthe dragon's) is the hard part. Like I wrote, same as with other really powerful SR figures.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 26 2011, 06:17 PM

Just got to do runs that also net you side gear. Got to extract a guy? Ship him out in a crate full of stuff that could furnish your hotel. It's like Leverage, minus. Haha.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 06:18 PM

Agreed. Once you get in a position to have a chance of kicking it up and down the block, it should not be a "Great Dragons are Invincible" moment. Getting to the point where you have that opportunity is definitely another story, and like you said this goes for any really powerful SR figures. You don't run into Damien Knight at the local Stuffer Shack, and the ninja you sent into his compound gets cacked before he even makes it across the grounds. These beings have a whole different level of security, far better than what you run into protecting a static asset on a difficult run.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:02 PM

I do worry about their use of edge. However, AFAIK, GD's are restricted as every other character in that they can only spend one edge per test. Additionally, GD's don't get any additional edge. One of my plans involved forcing the dragon's edge down in opposed edge tests. I suppose the GM might give the dragon the "lucky" quality, based on the guideline that great dragons should always be vastly superior to a player, but then again, that rule doesn't seem to apply to edge, since GD's still have a natural max of 6.

Posted by: ggodo Jun 26 2011, 08:04 PM

See, I'd disagree with putting the IEs on the same list as GDs. GDs are inherantly more powerful than any player character, IEs have simply been around long enough to get really good. Elves deal in shadow politics and social manipulation almost exclusively, with their magic there to save their tails if they get caught in direct confrontation. the trick there is to not directly confront the elves, but to maneuver them out of power through talk and cash as best you can. They're public figures, with a lot more to lose if they appear weak, or even if they simply lose influence, because that's all they've got.That aside, I seriously doubt that all Immortal Elves are combat monsters, Just because Harlequin's supposed to the biggest metahuman magical dude ever doesn't means everyone's taken Earthdawn Magic 400. YEs, they're going to be better than any individual, but they're still very mortal if you can get to them. Great Dragons screw with your Edge, know every spell in the game, dozens that aren't, breath fire, fly, and are monsters in a literal sense of the word. Oh, and they have spheres of influence in much more widespread and powerful places. I'm not going to stop Longbow from trying, but I don't think that should be his first stop when the team hits Denver next week.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:06 PM

I almost like the idea of another dragon aiding me, but they'd probably want to clean me up. Additionally, no one has gotten past any of my mage countermeasures yet, so I should be ok as far as divination goes (I don't have any directed intent or plans yet either, so detect enemies shouldn't factor in).

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:07 PM

I'll sacrifice myself and poison the dragon's ketchup. Bwahaha!
(playing a rigger, if anyone's curious)

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 08:12 PM

What countermeasures are there for divination?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:17 PM

In the words of a very powerful man that I would never disagree with:
"Some people think they can outsmart me maybe (sniff) maybe...
...I have yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet...
...Yeeeaaaaahh! Urrraaaa! Cry some more!
Bang!
Heh heh, Cry some more.
(TF2 ending theme plays)"

In all seriousness though, at some point you aren't predicting individuals actions any more, but rather deciphering chaos theory. I guess they can have sniffers and agents all over the place looking for enemies, but how many resources will an effectively invincible dragon spend on searching for human plots against him when there are other dragons plotting against him in the corporate world?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:20 PM

Which divination spells? Are you talking about a GM made up one, or one in the book?

For example, if the divination is supposed to detect future intent to kill, you could be an AI, which is electronic and therefore technically has no "intent".
If the divination is telling the future, that's broken, but I guess you can always have the dragon ripped apart by the time paradox of preventing his own future.

Actually, this sounds like a fluff thing. Have there been any references to the existence of a time stream or manipulation thereof in the books?

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 08:22 PM

I am talking about the metamagic. As I understand it, it cannot be countered. And that's not even taking into account what technomunchkins can do.

A lot. Besides, they can also task subordinates with some of that, subrdinates who then report to him.

In all seriousness, macho posturing aside, you're as likely to get a Great in your crosshairs as a runner as you are in the Real World to stab the President (assuming current security measures, not those of 40+ years ago).

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 08:27 PM

Every Die Hard movie: The Right Man In The Wrong Place At The Wrong Time.

When it comes down to it, no one ever expects the crazy guy with no shoes that throws cars at helicopters because he ran out of bullets.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 26 2011, 08:29 PM

I believe Celadyr was outsmarted by humans on more than one occasion, which is why TranSys is now part of NeoNet. Besides Llofwyr, most of the greats are well below megas on the food chain.

As for killing a GD, their abilities are rather overrated IMO. Yes, they can Hand of God if the GM allows it but,
"The character should not escape unharmed from whatever circumstance would have led to her death. In fact, the character should suffermost of the consequences of the action that would have killed her; if shot in the head, for example, she may be knocked into a coma and appear dead to her enemies, but she will survive to get revenge another day."
I've yet to see anything which gives GDs an out on this. Also, most of their Edge powers are dependent on LOS.

For my money, your best bet is to program an R10 Stealth program, boost all your hacking programs as high as possible (drugs, ware, everything) hack an Aesir Sat and Thor shot the target from orbit. Ain't much a GD can do about that. No LOS so no edge powers work and Thor shots are very clear: everything within 200 meters is dead (no roll, no exception, nothing) and the fluff makes a Hand of God tough (blasted to powder). Of course, if you're up there, you might as well just empty the whole compartment: 4 Thor Missiles, 15 Freya, 24 Loki. That's enough death so even if he Hand of Gods the first, he won't survive the second, third, fourth, etc.

Making sure you've actually hit him, and not some illusion, is a different story. That's more complicated, but still doable.

As for sniping him with drones...I don't think that's doable. Not unless you have a fully armed FB Unicorn or Ares Arbalest.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 08:32 PM

Ares Arbalest: When you really have to deliver that nuke from an expendable platform!

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 26 2011, 08:34 PM

It really isn't about their combat stats.. IEs and GDs are difficult targets for most of the same reasons;
* They've had millennia to get good at surviving
* They have access to far, far, far more magic than any other thing in SR except other IEs and GDs
* They have layers, layers, layers of minions and allies to supply them information, represent them towards naughty people, and do their bidding in general
* They are all smarter than anyone else and they're acutely aware of the need to protect themselves from the best the Sixth world has to offer.

Any way you can think of to kill them, they've thought of 30-3000 years ago and they've come up with a way to prevent it. It's not just that they're tough in a fight; you won't even get to fight them.

So the specific GD powers don't matter that much compared to IEs, it's the preparation and layers of insulation they both use that make it so hard to get to them.



None.

---

These creatures are so good at staying alive. They've survived over 5000 years of people who have good reasons to kill them, who are smarter than any PC and more powerful. They are literally smarter than any GM could hope to be, since their intelligence-related Attributes are far above the human racial maximum, even with a GM with Exceptional Attribute

That makes them hard to play as a GM; the NPC would have thought of things that the GM just isn't smart enough to think of. So a GM has to resort to ways to simulate the NPC's utter brilliance. *ominous music*

* Everything the PCs come up with, the NPC has considered, even if the GM hasn't. The GM has a hall pass to use everything the players say against them. Those kinds of enemies are always perfectly prepared for your plans.
* Afterwards, the GM comes up with a way to explain that whatever the PCs did, was actually part of the plan of the NPC; that he wanted them to do those things all along, and that they were manipulated into doing them.
* If all else fails, then it turns out that whatever the PCs assassinated wasn't actually the NPC; he used a magical clone, and he's still alive in his bunker. Turns out magical clones are really useful when people want to kill you.

---

Yes, that feels like GM abuse of power. In a sense, it is. But they're supposed to be better than the PCs, and unless you as a GM are simply smarter than all of your players combined, by an infallible margin, it just takes some "cheating" to make it all work.

The lesson in this is: as a player, if you take on the GDs and IEs, don't expect them to play fair. You GM is under no obligation to give you even an un-sporting chance.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 08:49 PM

Isn't that fluff? I saw the "nuke capable" part in the discussion part of MST, but being able to start the game with a nuke capable drone and immediately perform an availability test for a loki missile seems a bit OP.
I don't really understand the draw of the Unicorn. I'd go for an MCT hachiman.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:01 PM

Wouldn't you say that I become the subject of the spell if the dragon gets enough information from divination to identify his would-be killer? He'd need a focus in that case, and I avoid anything that provides those like the plague. Ok, that's a bit unfair. I would sleep with the plague and hang myself by my toenails on bamboo hooks to avoid giving someone a ritual focus. Unfortunately, the leftover blood on the hooks could probably be used for a ritual focus for five minutes.

I was actually just going to ask about that. Without derailing the thread (one or two posts should be fine) can someone tell me why it's inconceivable that a group could walk in from the edges of Washington DC and initiate concerted indirect fire on the White House form one or two streets away? I'm thinking a small mortar would be pretty effective and easy enough to conceal.
This is assuming the president is in the White House, although if that's highly unlikely for some reason, feel free to include your reasoning.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:07 PM

This sounds like the way the game is meant to be played (otherwise a single shadowrunner could annihilate the entire sixth world). I still hate awakened though, and would really prefer them to play fair. A better idea would be to have these characters roll logic, or a memory test, or something of that sort to see if they predicted my actions. Those huge stats aren't just there to look pretty.
Then again, the threshold should probably be immense to guess that a person you've never met or heard of is going to make an attempt on your life.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 26 2011, 09:13 PM

"You may be surprised to discover, as this is the first time that we have spoken, that I placed this plan in motion of destroying you before you were even born, to make sure you lost the chance of doing the same to me."

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 09:15 PM

Sigh...shakes head. The diviner in this instance is divining their own future, they don't need a thing from you. If they get enough hits, they get useful information regardless of what you do. It may not lead them directly to you, but it may put you in their sights, and once they are aware of a potential problem more and more resources will be devoted to it until it is neutralized or it has some means of perhaps Masking itself, or hiding its intent, and without magic you will have no idea how to do that.



I know you don't see it on TV but if you ever go to D.C. don't be surprised by the number of black clad paramilitary looking personnel, the uniformed security, the troops, the hidden security, and lastly do you really think the White House is the same building it was, in 1940. Could you get a mortar somewhere in D.C. sure, would your 81mm rounds do anything to the building probably not, plus I would not be surprised if they have counter battery radar set up along with a disguised phalanx system or two on the grounds. None of this is anything that would be public knowledge, and none of it would be obvious, and none of it should surprise anyone if it is in fact in place.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 09:18 PM

Metamagic ability =/= spell, dude. The dragon rolls and gets his questions aboutt he future answered, the more specific the lower the TN. And you can do shit about it. No ritual focus needed. Nada. Just the general metamagical technique, and a question about the future.

Technomunchkins can do something similar and then resonancequest to the Library to research each and every bit of info ever logged into a device somewhere, no matter whether it has since been deleted or not.


Because of the high number of security people screening whereever the president goes before he even gets there. Secret Service, cops, ect. Watcher spirits, real spirits using the search power, the works. Possibly, the president pays a diviner to foresee assassinations, since Colloton is smart.

Also, given that a public figure like Damien Knight has eight doubles in place, it's not likely that ou even know about the president'S whereabouts. Even if you do, though, the White House certainly is armoured and warded, maybe also has barrier spells in place.


Aww. The world isn't fair. Get used to it.

Posted by: Badmoodguy88 Jun 26 2011, 09:26 PM

If I were them I would through my spy network try to keep tabs on the purchase and movement of any weapons that could hurt me. Easier said than done, but you might want to buy your nifty gun (whatever you chose) a long long way out side of the country and smuggle it in.

Also I would from the start plan on attacking a large number of places all at once. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed. He changes where he is. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed. He changes where he is. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed.

His changing actions change only the place of attack. You are not reacting to him knowing. You are making him knowing and irreverent detail. Limiting his options. And divining takes time. The window between when the first bomb is about to go into place is a narrow window in which time he must act. He can not sit there and divine for hours, nor would they. They have a lot of things to do.

Anyway I thought divining saw the persons intentions. Divining yourself would give you a pointless look into what you plan to do. You can't for instance divine yourself to see if you would be blown up by a door you are about to go though that you think is booby trapped.

I am not saying this is easy this is just the kind of thing I would be thinking about if I were to kill a great dragon, and I would not, but I would aim to be like them. I think about what it would take to live forever if you were not unreasonably powerful but immortal. You could not for instance live in a building that can be burnt down or toppled by an earthquake, flood, or tornado. You would not want to live anywhere near volcanic activity. You would want many dozens of bunkers, and escape tunnels under where you live. With false dead ends, false entrances, not a labyrinth because that gets people thinking and it is easy to make a map. You would want the last lie you told to look like the truth finally revealed.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 09:30 PM

.... and pray the smuggler is not among your IE/GD enemy's spies.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:47 PM

SR4A sir. I've never played SR3. And sorry, I did mean metamagic, not spell.

I've seen the resonance realm quests.

I meant IRL. It's easy to say something happens, but reality checks often show that whoever's on offense has an overwhelming advantage.

It kind of is. I don't use the ITS Gonryu on any of my drones. Concealed weapon mount or otherwise.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 09:53 PM

Maybe. I'd argue that you could sense that you were in danger, but would learn nothing about me or my intentions without a material link or assensing me, because at that point the question is about me, not the dragon.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 26 2011, 09:54 PM

*shrug* There's numerous technological safeguards against that. First, including a random number generator into your plans screws divination to hell and random number generators are very easy to acquire in SR. As the easiest example, say I want to kill Hestaby on Saturday and 6:00 PM. At 5:59 PM I run a random number generator and if I roll a 1 on a d6, for example, I will abort the mission for no other reason. Such an event cannot be divined, it's impossible. Screw with the results until the odds are 1/1,000,000 and the principle still holds. Second, it does nothing to prevent assaults by a botnet or similar forces for two reasons: first, it's questionable whether divination could even correctly identify what a botnet is; and second, attacks from multiple shifting sources make divination worthless. If your botnet includes numerous vehicles, such as airplanes (and crashing an airplane into a dragon is fairly effective) then the divination is useless.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:00 PM

Airplane has 30 body I imagine. That's not even a test: 30 body X 3 for moving at over 200 meters per turn = 90 DV. You are a bad man.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 26 2011, 10:01 PM

Divining is magical. It does not care for mathematical impossibilities. Divining is - in fact - a mathematical impossibility in itself.

EDIT: Random numbers are calculated by some sort of algorithm. So they are not truly random. With the possible exception of random numbers calculated on the base of radioactive decay.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 26 2011, 10:05 PM

Casual violations of math, or physics for that matter, are magics stock-in-trade. Extreme violations, such as predicting inherently unknowable events, either shatters physics and reality or it shatter suspension of disbelief. Neither is good for a game.

Edit: Depends on how random you demand it. Suffice to say, given SR tech, you should be able to get sufficiently random numbers for your purpose.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 26 2011, 10:09 PM

GD Divination powers are several orders of magnitude above what the books list as available for PCs; http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/

The normal rules are for normal (N)PCs. GDs and IEs don't play by those rules. If that feels unfair, tough luck.

It isn't just about Awakened.. this goes for AIs like Deus too. Some NPCs are simply meant to be above and beyond the playing field.




It isn't just a GD rolling that test; it's more like multiple intelligence agencies working to prevent your attack. A GD can hire hundreds of people with mental attributes in the 9+ to work out contingency plans against everything - and they do.

You don't get to have a fair fight with GDs, IEs or (old school) AIs.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:09 PM

Be a mage, and make your algorithm dependent on the result of the enemy mage's divination test (there are more ways to tell past than future). Your GM will run home crying.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 26 2011, 10:10 PM

How do you know the result of the enemy mage's divination test?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:13 PM

Meh, I don't feel that threatened by something that has no physical presence. I guess in the large scale he can take out a dragon, but his defense is only as strong as the armor rating of his home node. Assuming I get past the outer shell of hirelings in meatspace, he's much easier to take out.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 10:16 PM

If it was as easy as you think it is, don't you think it'd have been done already?


So? What does the dragon need ritual samples for to find out who is planning to hit him with a mortar in the coming month?


It also shows what will affect you. You could do that, but usualy that's pretty impractical. Also, your GM would probably houserule to limit it to once a session very soon if you abuse divination like this.


What about "you need to get the dragon to expose itself in the first place" is so hard to understand?


Nothing is random. Everything is a cause to some effect.


Uhm. That's assuming a lot.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 26 2011, 10:17 PM

There are two possibilities:

1. Randomness is something that regularly happens in the world. If so, your random number generator won't add much to the overall randomness of events.
2. There is no randomness at all. Everything is predetermined by natural laws, but complex enough to seem random. Chaos theory. So random numbers are not random.

Something in between is unlikely because in nature things happen regularly or they don't happen at all.

In both cases the random number generator shouldn't really help, because it does not add much to the complexity of the system.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:29 PM

He makes a note on his comm and you hack it.
You make a divination test to see if he will take countermeasures and what they will be.
Use clairaudience or clairvoyance to spy.
spell: Mind probe.
Interrogate a confidant.
Spy astrally.
spell: Borrow sense.
spell: Dream. To cause your subject to unintentionally divulge the information.
Shade slipped into some food. Suddenly the odds are a lot more even for any sort of direct confrontation.

To tell the future you have one option. To find past events or current events, it's not even a question.

Posted by: hermit Jun 26 2011, 10:35 PM

All of which assume you are either awakened, get close to your target, your target's stupid, or all of them.

You assume you just get past the really hard obstacles, and then plan how you will do the last step of your hard, complex task, taking the last step before the first (and the thousand that lead up to the last). It's like planning travel to a faraway place and only taking money to pay for the hotel, because you take flight and everything else, like learning the local language, as a given somehow.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 26 2011, 10:35 PM

We are still talking about a GD as the enemy mage, right?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:49 PM

I always ask myself that.
The only possibility I can think of is that sympathizers for extremist causes have largely been filtered out based on shallow reasoning which is frequently incorrect (color of skin, etc). More people are filtered out by the fact that this requires planning, and folks with that level of bloodlust can get caught pretty fast. Another thing that filters people out is that this is practically a suicide run. You'll most likely be successful, but you probably won't make it out.
This is a much more solid plan than shooting the president in the face, but nobody tried that until the 16 president (US president). Ok, they did try and fail on the seventh president, but apparently nobody learned from that.

He has no link to me, no knowledge of me, no sight of me, no anything of me, thus violating the principle rule of magic, which even divination wants you to hold to:
"To use Divining, the initiate must first be able to assense
the subject (be it an entity, a place, or an object), or possess a
viable material link (p. 28)."

And by using divination, cause and effect breaks down. If something would happen based on the results of your divination, then it is the result of cause and effect. If you try to avoid that happening, nothing is based on cause and effect any longer because the timeflow has been messed with.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 10:55 PM

I didn't really plan it out, but if telling the future is easier than finding out about the past or present, we have much bigger problems than Great Dragons here. I can always pay a mage to do divination metamagic on the dragon. He doesn't get any more defense than I do.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 10:58 PM

Except that mortars are large enough to be difficult to conceal and the ammo is pretty heavy, and once again your mortar will never hit the place. Like I said counter battery and phalanx are very likely. This means your slow moving projectile gets blown up in mid air.



And in this case he is assensing himself. His future he does not give a crap about your future, he has no need of a physical object since it is in reference to himself. I can automatically assense myself and have an automatic viable link. It at no point violates principals of magic.



Once again it is a magical effect it by its very nature breaks a mundanes understanding of reality, which might explain why some are scared shitless by it.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 11:03 PM

You could always pay a mage to do a divination on yourself and he might tell that Lofwyr eats you for breakfast, at which point he might give S-K a call and see if he can get some nuyen from giving a tip. To divine the dragon you would need a material focus. He is never divining you directly, he is divining his own future and at some point yours intersects his in a not so favorable way. This is what he is being drawn to take a closer look at. If he wanted to divine your future he would need a viable focus.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 11:15 PM

Thanks, I thought those were future tech. Actually, I still think they're future tech, but whatevs.

Eh~ maybe. I group this in the same category as "magic affecting me without any link".

Cause and effect is rather aptly named. If cause does not create effect, then it's not cause and effect any more.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 26 2011, 11:19 PM

#1 Random, truly random, events are unpredictable almost by definition. Divination is therefore pointless.
#2 If this is true, and the divination reveals that the GD will die, this is unalterable whatever actions the GD takes.

Some middle ground seems most reasonable for play purposes, where divination is helpful but not all powerful. This does make divination less useful against either multiple actors or actors who increase the uncertainty of their actions.


Also, there's still no real answer to whether divination even can affect Matrix events. Divination provides guidance through visions, yet the matrix..does not interact well with magic. It simply does not exist in a form which interacts with magic.

Also, Longbow, old school AIs were just as annoying as GDs. As I recall the old SR3 stuff (Target:Matrix maybe) flat out said that an AI was basically unbeatable in the Matrix.

EDIT:

Again, breaking something like cause and effect is well beyond the suspension of disbelief most players are willing to extend to magic. Either you need to completely reimagine, well, how time and fate work in your universe or divination is far more limited than is being presented here. And let's be honest, if any player started using divination the way it's being used here, the GM would beat him over the head with the rulebook. This isn't a RAW or RAI interpretation of divination because I can't imagine anyone actually playing that way (step up if you have), this is essentially a GM fiat argument that GDs have "Super Divination". And that's fine, play the game as you like. I don't think they have super-divination because it makes the game boring for the PCs. While the rules certainly give scope for GDs to have extra-special powers, and they should, this is not one that is included in the books.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 11:21 PM

Could be a good plan. If I get a good reading, rub out the diviner and continue. If I get a bad reading, give the mage some more detailed information on my original plan and set a counter-trap at the proposed time and location.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 11:23 PM

True random number generation has been achieved using Lava Lamps.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 11:25 PM

GrrooOOovy man.

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 11:27 PM

...and now you are starting to think a little bit like a GD. Add 50 levels of intrigue between you and it, and then fashion a real plan with a similar degree of separation, because the original is just a massive diversion, or is it? Like I said many posts ago, whole campaign not an end run, and both would still likely be suicidal.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 11:27 PM

I'm still amazed they found a practical use for Lava Lamps.

Then was even more amazed at the military applications of Silly String!

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 26 2011, 11:35 PM

*Excited movements*
Tell us!
Tell us!

Posted by: Faelan Jun 26 2011, 11:36 PM

You can use it to see tripwires from a fairly safe distance. You can also use a spray bottle of water on mist, but that requires you to be closer.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 26 2011, 11:50 PM

Yep, spray the room with silly string, and it drapes lazily over the tripwires.

I saw some pics in early 2002 that showed an entire room just festooned with tripwires. I swear, it reminded me of when I got really hyper as a child with some fishing line (Note: Do not feed a hyperactive child chocolate cake with frosting that includes red dye!). Only these had explosives connected to it.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 27 2011, 03:26 AM

Re: Divination

I could mathematically justify how divination does not interfere with cause and effect if I were a brighter mind, or at least more focused and had more spare time. Fundamentally, think of reality as a somewhat buoyant object within a fluid body. Every action creates some degree of x-dimensional wave (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) wave motion within the fluid body, and the intersections of those waves (regardless of their dimensional state) represents a given outcome (keep in mind, this is a gross over-simplification of explaining reality, alternate futures, and divination). Now, let's say that the somewhat buoyant object represents conventional, consensual reality. Each entity, depending on their actions, can steer this buoyant object to some degree, with the more powerful/important people creatures contributing more to the direction. A Great Dragon perceives the waves and calculates them, within a certain margin of error, to where the buoyant object will be at a given time. In seeing and predicting this harmonic outcome, and changing the position of the buoyant object, the Great Dragon prevents the original outcome, while not altering the extant motions and forces that granted the original calculation to begin with.

Similar mathematical theory has been generated to determine the velocity of a body in orbital motion, and the forces affecting it (direction of impetus being perpendicular to the force holding the object in orbit, etc., etc.). Also, as the one plotting against the Great Dragon, it will be your goal to steer the world to a position where that Great Dragon dies.

Re: Planning the death of a Great Dragon

Your best bet to survive would be arranging an outcome where the Great Dragon finds it in his/her best interest to sacrifice itself (ala Dunkelzhan), with the 2nd best choice being to arrange an outcome where OTHER Great Dragons find it in THEIR best interest in offing the poor sod; you might want to 'make nice nice' with Lofwyr.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 03:41 AM

I love the odd stuff the Army teaches like that. I will always remember how to fix a bullet wound to a lung with a pop-tart. Though I also like walked with a weighted fishing line hanging from my barrel to catch ankle height wires.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 03:54 AM

Re: Divination...could you help me out here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw

Re: Planning the death of a Great Dragon
Never make a deal with a dragon.

The guy who plays a rigger in my game is a former marine(marine corp retired, if you prefer) and taught me the fishing line trick.
We game out in a pretty rural part of Mansfield where there are a ridiculous amount of spiders so that has been worth it's weight in gold on the long walks from the house to the car in the middle of the night.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 27 2011, 04:47 AM

Try to think less wibbly wobbly and more Cthulu, non-euclidean thought (Escher type stuff). Alternatively, bistromathics. If you do not get that second reference, then you fail as a geek, and are hereafter sentenced to a life of fulfilling mundanity and social acceptance.

I never SAID to make a deal with a dragon. I said to arrange for particular outcomes. I also said to 'make nice nice' with Lofwyr. Making a deal is not the exclusive method of achieving these goals.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 27 2011, 04:52 AM

You wanna kill a great dragon?

Get an unhinged street doc to implant you choc-full of C12 and sacs of toxins and cutter nanites, along with detonators tied to your biomonitor with a deadman's switch. Then, slather yourself with condiments, and get the great dragon to eat you.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 04:53 AM

Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey (Lesbian Spank Inferno) is a story telling tool. Rather than letting one's game devolve into competing views on M theory, you say 'This is my Timey Wimey spell. It goes 'ding' when there's stuff." The presumption being that the actual physics involved in the ability to see through the vortex of time and space are far more complex than can presently be understood, so metaphor is needed.
Some people hate this about Moffat. These people are silly.

Arrange for outcomes? Make nice with Lofwyr? Sounds like a making a deal to me.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 27 2011, 05:04 AM

Fair enough

And that is why you are not on the same level as a Great Dragon. In Disney's Aladdin, the title character gets a wish for free, why? Because he never actually wished for the outcome from the genie. Metal Gear Solid's mid-game twist, the initial impetus in Bioshock that you don't discover until halfway through the game... countless examples already exist of secret domination, shaping another's desires, of Xanatos and Batman gambits. Dealing with Great Dragons will, by nature, necessitate Xanatos Speed Chess, even if THAT is just a distraction from the direct approach.

DON'T make a deal, because deals will be twisted and broken. Make somebody want something, and make them certain that the outcome means nothing to you compared to what it means to them. And when everything is finally in motion, it'll be going like Tokyo Drift: if you're not out of control, you're not IN control.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 05:35 AM

Wow. Just wow. That is just far too many video game and Disney cartoon references for one paragraph. And Tokyo Drift?!?! Really? Is that a film people saw much less remembered? We need to have a firm basis of communication so I'm going to do this... Aladdin = Faustus, Metal Gear = Merchant of Venice, Bioshock = Old Boy, Xanatos = Mrs. Havisham and Tokyo Drift = ... well I never saw it so I'm just going to say Hamlet because it's so nebulous it's applicable to anything.
Now I think I know about which you are speaking.

I'm going to throw another literary reference back at you, Gatsby. You can think you have everything lined up perfectly, and you can even do everything right, but the game is rigged. Those of immense power have set up a system in which you cannot win. All your well laid plans and strategies and well thought out ideas, even when executed perfectly, topple to the ground like stones thrown upon a barricade of wealth, privilege and power.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 05:46 AM

Since we are referencing media I'll throw in my two cents and assume that dragons think about meta-humanity along the lines of a Michael Weston quote, "Dealing with a trained operative is like playing chess with a master. Dealing with criminals, on the other hand, is like playing checkers with a three year-old: they like to change the rules". The dragon(s) can think and plan and scheme, but they are creatures usually set in their ways while the rest of us are so mind-numbingly chaotic that it's hard to predict a rigger launching himself in a Bust-A-Move with a satellite link from a rail gun straight at ya.

Posted by: Epicedion Jun 27 2011, 05:52 AM

This is how it works:

Great Dragons are smarter than you. They're smarter than the GM. If you somehow manage to outwit your GM and kill a Great Dragon, your GM should rule that, in fact, your cunning plan didn't work for some new reason that neither of you had thought up beforehand.

If your runner is in the business of living, he'll leave the dragons alone.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 27 2011, 06:10 AM

I disagree.



I think that GDs do have Super Divination, and more stuff like it. I don't think it makes the game boring, because trying to kill GDs was never supposed to be what the game is about, that's just Longbowrocks' insane plan.

GDs aren't intended for direct confrontation, they're meant to stay back in the shadows, to be the secret mover behind a dozen layers of intrigue that eventually causes whatever your current mission is about.

Complaining that GDs aren't fair game is like complaining that Antediluvians in oWoD aren't fair game - the point of the game was never to confront them.



Yes!

Posted by: Manunancy Jun 27 2011, 06:15 AM

In my opinion going after a great dragon with any hope of sucess requires two things :
* getting enough firepower for the job. That usually means military grade, vehicle-scale weaponry
* getting enough information on the dragon' abilities and schedule to be able to actually bring the hardware close enough to do the deed

You're not sitting alone in the middle of an abandonned trash dump thinking and building stuff out of the trash - you're actively poking your nose around to get things and information the lizards knows can be detrimental to his health. Which brings you straight into the sort of areas he will keep an eye upon - he or his servants. That's going to jump the odds for showing up on his radar by an order of magnitude.

The hardware part is also likely to bring you to the attention of more intelligence services than is healthy, because the sort of hardware you'll need to take down a Great Dragon is the sort of hardware the power-that-be isn't eager to see dropping under the radar.

Note : even if you're playing tricks with random numbers and whatnots, there's still a constant in the whole deal that will probably emerge : there's someone - even if he can't dvine the specifics of who, when and how - who's out for his blood and far more seirous about it than his usual ennemies.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 27 2011, 06:31 AM

I never saw Tokyo Drift, myself, but that line WAS in the commercials. Also, I understand about the Gatsby thing. "No plan survives an encounter with the enemy." And yes, those of immense power have set up a system in which you cannot win. That's not the point. The point is NOT to win. The point is to make THEM lose! Once the target has lost, any amount of winning is just gravy.


It might be hard to predict, but it can be easy to defend against, give or take. The best way to surprise your quarry is to remove the given assumptions from the field of play (i.e. personal survival, conventional warfare, that you even WANT it dead). Go zen, and realize that you shouldn't think inside the box, nor outside, but rather that the box is merely an illusion distracting you from the great splendor that is being a sneaky bastard.

Posted by: hermit Jun 27 2011, 06:34 AM

Actually, given his warp fate type power, I wouldn't be so sure the dragon doesn't have any power to defend against divining. Just, you don't.


Or maybe those more perimeter security structures - patrols, cameras, ElInt, plainscloths agents looking for suspicious people - are a lot more competent than you give them credit for. And since I imagine it hard to just buy a mortar and ammunition even in the States, maybe that's enough to foil that cunning plan?


Of course it still is caue and effect. It just adds another variable. Time travel would be messy there, divination, not so much. And time travel is a no-go in SR. It's the same with certain real world experiments that acelerate particles past light speed (which disintegrates the particle into radiation, but has the disintegrated radiation apear before the particle is launched b a few nanoseconds; and yet the universe hasn't exploded). To paraphrase Douglas Adams: The universe is built on the principle of cause and effect, though those don't always happen in chronological order.


Haven't been since the 90s. Current systems are very effective against slow moving projectiles, and medium effectiver against fast things like missiles. Supposedly, the Israeli Iron Dome system can reliably intercept RPGs and short-range missiles, too.


That's good for you. The rules don't.


Assuming you have the same level of ressources the dragon has (and a totally reliable mage who will do everything for you and never betray you), that's a much more decent plan than your previous ones.


What? If anything, it is Lear II.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 06:37 AM

There have been plenty of smart people in the past, but that's never saved anyone from an idiot with a gun who didn't like what they said. How many billions of people does a dragon need to keep track of if he wants to be certain that no one will try to kill him?

Posted by: hermit Jun 27 2011, 06:49 AM

You really overestimate the influence and comeptence of assassins, especially the disgruntled citizen type.


That's projecting your own irrational hate of "anything that's bigger than your character" onto everyone. I doubt any given GD is hated (personally or for hat he stands for) than the US president. And curiously, most presidents don't seem to be assassinated by some Mr. Smith with no plan and a rusty shotgun.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 27 2011, 07:00 AM

You're gonna have to explain how that justifies this,
"The initiate enters a mild trance state that reveals glimpses and flashes of what the future may hold—almost always couched in enigmatic symbolism and metaphor appropriate to the diviner’s magical paradigm and cosmology."
giving the GD complete foreknowledge of complex future events, such as the fact that on August 21st, at a randomly determined time which may or may not occur depending on a random number generator are going to hack local aircraft and military units, with orders to both directly attack/crash into the GD and cause a critical meltdown in a local nuclear plant.
There's a shorter answer though. You wouldn't let a player do this with Divination, even though a PC could easily get 20+ dice on this test. It would ruin the game, they'd make a fortune on the stock market on the first run. The dragon isn't using divination, it's using "super-divination". That's fine for some games but it's not RAW and it's not going to be true for GDs in many games.


GDs have been outsmarted by humans before. Celadyr was outsmarted twice before TranSys joined NeoNet. Ryumo didn't predict the comet's effects and got blindsided by the new emperor. The Azzies regularly compete against multiple GDs and regular dragons without any apparent loss of power or position. Yes, GDs should generally be smarter and more powerful than PCs, that shouldn't equal Schrödinger's Armor, especially not if your PCs with 6 ranks in Devious Machinations.


Yeah, GDs aren't really meant for direct confrontation. However, if it's something the PCs want to do, and LongBow seems to, then the PCs should have a shot. If you want GDs to have "super-divination", that's fine for your game. I don't, I like the principle in SR that everything can be killed, everyone is vulnerable. I don't think, per RAW, GDs have "super-divination".

And while I like oWoD, it's so different from SR that comparisons aren't any more applicable than D&D, where you can kill everything (yes, they even stated Cthulu).

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 07:03 AM

I believe strongly in chaos theory, which is an extreme application of cause and effect. It was determined from the beginning of the universe that I would be here today, and eat frosted mini wheats for breakfast (a very sugary wheat cereal). This was born of the progression of cause and effect. Then again, I guess the dragon performing the divination is part of cause and effect, and so its actions based on the result would already be accounted for. Alright, nevermind then.

Actually, this part of the plan fails if he doesn't betray me. I was counting on him betraying me, and intending to exploit the resulting trap that I imagine would be laid.

Posted by: hermit Jun 27 2011, 07:14 AM

The trap you know nothing about. Right.


If his GM agrees. If it's something a player wants to do and the GM doesn't, it won't happen.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 07:15 AM

Well, there's that, but how many of Einstein's thoughts were ever dedicated to "How can I survive today without any these people killing me?"
In addition to minds that are preoccupied (with managing a corporation or what have you) there's also the fact that there are too many possible threats to do more than a background check of your immediate vicinity when you're famous, or especially controversial.

I don't think any U.S. president has ever personally razed a city with his fiery breath and deadly magic. That nets you a couple grudges.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:18 AM

Andrew Jackson committed genocide and ignored a Supreme Court order not to do so.
But his wife had just died, so...

EDIT: And Grant razed Vicksburg. Ah, Ulysses S. Grant. The Zap Brannigan of the Civil War.
And some nobody congressman from Missouri obliterated two whole Japanese cities.
And James K. Polk shelled Mexico City into oblivion.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 27 2011, 07:19 AM

Well, the players and GM need to agree on what kind of game they want to play. I kinda assumed they'd already done that.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 07:20 AM

Depends on how detailed the fortelling is. If it's detailed enough, the GD can lay a wonderful trap, which will consequently have tighter parameters for success. The more completely I am betrayed, the better my chances.
It's the difference between knowing they'll try to stop me because I will shoot someone at some point, and deciding to wear insulated clothing because they expect me to use a gun that fires icicles, and thus I expect them to use some sort of heat based countermeasure.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 07:23 AM

I actually meant personally. Like personally. As in gutting every person that got gutted. Dragons have a way of not having to command troops.

Posted by: hermit Jun 27 2011, 07:25 AM

Presumably a lot before he emigrated to the states. It's why he emigrated, after all.


Shadowrun dragons are much better at multitasking than metahumans. Seriously. Lofwyr's idea of entertainment is watching every cable channel at once. I am not making this up.


No, US presidents have to order nukes dropped instead. Which has happened. Or have their soldiers massacre civilians and carpet half a country with chemical weapons, which also has happened. And that's not even getting into what badly chosen words and invasions can do for the US' reputation ...





Also he really hated the Natives.


Bullshit. All dragons have an army of henchmen (Corp troopers, national troops, hippie-esque shamans, bizarre spirits) at their disposal. Even Sirrug has. Besides, since when is gutting people personally required to make someone loathed?


Why lay a complex trap for you? This is not the 1960s Batman series. Hed just put out a bounty on you and see the Shadows eat you alive.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:28 AM

Yeah, I'm still saying genocide of our native peoples trumps all that.

And Zachary Tyler and U.S. Grant did personally raze cities to the ground.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:31 AM

And I mean like personally. Andrew Jackson personally set fire to entire villages of Seminoles in his Indian campaigns. He set the darn fires!
The man was shot approximately 18 times. In one duel, he let the other guy go first, got shot, then took his shot, killed the guy and walked off the bullet wound. He once coughed up a bullet at a state dinner he received in a duel over the honor of a New Orleans prostitute.

There is no evidence I can find that Andrew Jackson was not an Immortal Elf.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 27 2011, 07:32 AM

Ain't this getting dangerously close to political talk? Suffice to say, numerous leaders have done very bad things but none of them have personally pulled a Godzilla impersonation.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:45 AM

I'll cede that.
I just reckoned that politics of over 150 years ago was fair game.
And I do maintain that Andrew Jackson was/is an Immortal Elf. His accomplishments were matched only by his hubris and crimes against humanity. That reeks of Immortal Elf to me.

Posted by: hermit Jun 27 2011, 07:52 AM

It was a dick move, but back then, genocide was a lot less of a bad word than it is today.


Yeah, he really liked the dueling. Wasn't aware he set villages on fire himself, too, though. Was it Jackson who ran a campaign claiming the other guy wants to hang everyone?


Alright, yes. However, whether someone mass-murders personally or by proxy doesn't seem all that relevant. Plus, Aden didn't raze Teheran alone, he had an army of spirits and Awakened to help him.


So Napoleon was one, too?

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 08:02 AM

Not according to the Choctaw it wasn't.

I don't think that was him. Most of the vitriol in the Jackson/Adams campaign was directed at Jackson and his wife. Adams was already grossly unpopular and had made some serious missteps as president. Jackson focused mostly on disparaging him as a coward.
Adams focused mostly on the reputation of Jackson's wife. It was so bad it is said to have killed her right before Jackson took office. To say he was distraught is an understatement.

No, too short. Plus Napoleon avoided death though luck. Jackson avoided death through sheer force of will.

Posted by: Tycho Jun 27 2011, 09:58 AM

Detect Enemies (extended) at Force 20+ with 20+ Hits counters most of the traps there are and 10+ Bound Spirts with Force 20+ are a good backup if you ever are in trouble...

it is like the 4-5km radar for enemies that try to kill you and with this much hits the great dragon knows what you wear, do, carry, general physiology and so on...

cya
Tycho

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 27 2011, 10:22 AM

Only works on living targets. Yeah, if you were gonna walk up with a gun that'd be be helpful but, um, I don't think anybody recommends that.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 27 2011, 02:18 PM

Ninja'd

Posted by: Wakshaani Jun 27 2011, 05:04 PM

If you want to kill a Great Dragon, the first thing you have to do is assume that you won't live. Trying to kill one *and* get away with it is too difficult. Just go ahead and accept you're a martyr to the greater good.

(Of course, there's also Plan B, wher eyou start handing out magic swords to farmboys and hope that oens gets lucky.)

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 07:36 PM

I always assumed that was a given.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 27 2011, 10:42 PM

Just wait until the mana downcycle, when the dragons get sleepy.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 27 2011, 11:52 PM

My own plan involved a swarm of drones firing deepweed-DMSO splat rounds to start with. Yes, the dragon has a high body, and therefore a high soak against toxins. With hundreds of shots hitting him in a round, it's only a matter of time before he fails enough rolls to be out of edge AND be forced to astrally perceive, making it more difficult to defend against further drone attack.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 11:56 PM

Do that with some K10. Make the dragon go nuts and have every company feel like donating a Thor Shot against it's butt, haha.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jun 28 2011, 01:00 AM

All this discussion is, to me, just highlighting how schizophrenic the depiction of Great Dragons is in Shadowrun. Going strictly by the core rules, they are distinctly underwhelming. Powerful, yes. Mind-blowingly awesome, not so much. Going by the novels and some sourcebooks, they’re all but invincible forces of nature.

Take, for example, War! (which everyone seems to hate) p. 31, where the GD Sirrurg practically wipes out a city (or a good chunk of it) *with one spell*, somehow using his Twist Fate abilities to do this. A re-reading of the core rules (either original or SR4A) does not reveal the ability of Twist Fate to supercharge Combat spells into mega-WMD’s as far as I can see, but nonetheless this particular GD has no trouble pulling that off; Ghostwalker also handily took over Denver without any real difficulties and Aden was apparently badass enough to trash Tehran all by himself. Essentially, this seems to boil down to “SR authors make GDs as powerful as they feel like at any given time with no regard to any other published materials.”

If that’s the case, then the SR world of 2070-ish really makes no sense as presented. If GDs have those abilities, then they’re not really awesomely powerful magical creatures, they’re http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PhysicalGod. I mean, really, at that level of power, what’s the practical difference between them and Cthulhu? And if that’s the case, why the heck do they bother becoming “grand masters of manipulation” of all the lowly mortals inhabiting the Earth? If they have this much power at their casual disposal, the entire world should been under outright dragon rule within a year or so of the GDs awakening – say by the end of 2012 at the latest. Why should Lofwyr bother with all his various machinations and corporate raiding when he can just (apparently) march into any area and say “I’m in charge now. Oh, you guys disagree? [BOOM, a city is gone.] Anyone else disagree?” Hence, I would argue they need to be scaled (heh) down a bit or they necessarily dominate every single aspect of the entire world, to the exclusion of anything else.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 01:42 AM

It's easier to break something than to build it or protect it. Also, the stats in the book are for stock great dragons, not NAMED great dragons. They also, in so many words, say, "Hey, go wild with this!" As for twist fate...

Let's say a dragon tosses a dragon-sized power ball on a city. We're looking at about 24 Force overcast max for a STOCK great dragon. Nowhere in the critter listing does it give a MAXIMUM rating for essence or stats for these guys, only what's usual. Let's say that, despite being alive for several millenia and having your very being tied intimately to the ebb and flow of magic does NOT grant the eldest great dragons any higher than 12 Essence, meaning about 24 magic hard cap including the 12 initiation levels, so 48 max overcast on the force rating of the powerball. That 48 force will affect the area, probably enough to decimate a city. Add in the artifacts the dragon has found/made to add to their magic pool, drain soak pool, anchored spell effects on anchoring foci... and this is still in the process of adding up dice. It's already ludicrous and we can justify a large metropolitan area being leveled by the spell at this point for a capped out dragon who's had time to build up more wealth and power than China, the U. S., and the U.K. on a bender combined!

Now, we have an unreasonably high potential from a Great Dragon and all their toys, you may ask "How does 'Twist Fate™' factor in?" Good question! The answer is that, with that really high spell, somebody may spend edge to survive, or possibly to counter them (another Great Dragon using Twist Fate, for instance, who likes the status quo). Well, by spending a single edge in a single turn, that great dragon can negate any one other person's spending of edge, basically telling them "I like the way things are right now." Alternately, they can Twist Fate to make the structure of the city re-roll it's soak successes and keep the result, which will no doubt be less than before.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 28 2011, 01:44 AM

As stated, in the rules, it says that GD`s have access to things the players will never have, up to the GM`s discretion. This can be an over powering number of things I can`t even think of all of them.

"I spend edge to modify this test." Also, as has been stated, maybe the spell required being "powered up" to have any effect, using the released life energy of the recently deceased (To me, that many dead would create a temporary BG of at least 2 or 3, which could have been aspected to Sirrurg "the Destroyer" naturally. Who knows.)
Ghostwalker had a whole host of spirits with him, several likely bound, and probably had a lot of preperation (including spirits sustaining many defensive spells on him)
Aden, yes, he burned down Tehran. Before magic was understood, and likely had at least a few protections as well.
To me, these aren't out of the scope of Great Dragon ability, but most of the awesome things they have done were prepared.

Draconic nature in most, if not all fantasy settings has them as manipulators, striving towards a future goal (Meta)humanity can likely never understand. Personally, I think it's more like a game to the dragons, and what fun is playing the game if you overpower everyone all at once?

Posted by: JanessaVR Jun 28 2011, 02:28 AM

It's not how much force the GD can achieve inside the area effect of its Combat spell - I readily concede that anything caught inside that area is pretty much dead-no-save. It's the *size* of the area in question. A Force 48 spell would be about 288' in diameter (1 meter radius * Force). Bad enough to trash a chunk of downtown, but Sirrurg should *not* have been able to affect such a large area in *one shot*, so my point about SR writers making it up as they go along stands. If they'd said that he spent the next 15 minutes firing off those shots one after another, I would concede that the city was toast, but no matter how you slice it, he should not have been able to affect such a large area at once.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 28 2011, 02:47 AM

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a stock GD. I'm fairly sure every GD worth the name appeared in "Survival of the Fittest", sure a GM could uncover a new GD for their game but the idea that there are just a ton of stock GDs lying around and the named ones are somehow more powerful than those GDs simply isn't supported. I'm all for customizing the GD stats, lower stats for Masaru, higher Logic for Llofwyr, higher Summoning/Binding for Ghostwalker, but we're talking about a few points here or there.


The wealth and power they accumulated while they were...sleeping or partying on the metaplanes? The wealth and power they acquired after they awoke from a world where non-magical technology equaled iron crafting to one where the cyberspace and cyberware are springing up? The one with the giant megacorps already consuming all the worlds resources?

We accept that Llofwyr was able to buy out a founding member of the Corp Court with a pile of gold he had in his cave not because it makes sense but because Llofwyr as a scheming CEO is cool. You don't really need to stretch that any further.

If you want Great Dragons to be Super-Genius Godzillas in your game, go for it. That's not the published rules and while it can be fun to play against insanely powerful dragons, if I wanted that I'd go back to Rifts where it's built in.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 03:01 AM

48 is the unassisted overcast. With a magic rating of 24, they can utilize a Power Focus to boost their magic anywhere from 24-120; the maximum total force of all bonded foci cannot exceed magic x5, but SR4A does not say it cannot all be one focus. If we grant that the dragon will have 2-4 sustaining foci for maintaining defensive spells, then we can guess at a Force rating of 1 or 2 times their Magic rating for a Power Focus. That gives us 48 from magic + overcasting, and another 48 for a Power Focus. 96 Force spell. This is neglecting the "Dragons get better than you" fluff thus far for spells available.

Radius of 96 meters, squared times pi, gives us 28.953 sq km (rounded) for a dragon who's defending himself.

Max potential damage would be 168 force total, probably terminal levels of drain, and 88.668 sq km (rounded again) for a dragon who's just focused on making the area cease to exist at all costs. Long live the memory of President Dunkelzhan!


The lowest listed logic for a standard dracoform of any kind is 8. Great Dragons start at +5 to that (13). How is that not Super-Genius Godzillas? It IS the published rules and stats. SR4A pg 303-304
edit: also SR4 std 296-267

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 28 2011, 03:16 AM

They can be Super-Genius Godzillas, but that doesn't mean they don't suffer from hubris.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jun 28 2011, 03:18 AM

I think you're seriously pushing the #'s here to ludicrous levels with increasingly unlikely explanations, but *if* that's the case, then my other point stands. These beings are the unquestioned, invincible, unstoppable, all-powerful *gods* of the SR world, and the campaign world as it stands should not exist - the dragons rule the world and all lesser mortals are their slaves; I see no appreciable difference between the GDs awakening and Cthulhu rising from the depths of the Pacific. Pick one. Your campaign, your choice, of course. But when I GM, sure as hell not a chance of this in my SR world. I can and will retcon Godzilla-dragon incidents down to less ridiculous levels as necessary. Unless, of course, they're rampaging through Tokyo - that would seem appropriate then.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 28 2011, 03:18 AM

You do realize, Rubic, that a Power Focus does not add Magic Rating Right?
As of SR4 (And SR4A) A Power Focus ONLY ADDS DICE to the Spellcasting Roll, IT NEVER ADDS MAGIC RATING...

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 03:26 AM

Ah, an oversight on my part. Also, it'd require one hell of a spirit to craft that for you, as there is no other way for such a high-level focus to be crafted (crafter's magic rating is the cap).

Regardless, Dragons are exceedingly powerful, and Great Dragons even moreso. Christian Lafay is right that Great Dragons are not immune to hubris. Real life example, Bruce Lee was arguably the BEST martial artist of his day, perhaps ever. This did not prevent him from getting his back broken by an opponent; the circumstances are moot, as shadowrunners won't play fair against Dragons or Great Dragons either.

Now, Great Dragons are NOT invincible. As far as Shadowrun goes, they are as close as it gets. Frankly, I see taking down a Great Dragon as being a more realistic retirement goal for a runner than opening a bar and being forced to work for a living. YMMV

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 28 2011, 03:38 AM

That's ok...
With Cerebral Enhancers III, it's very easy to play a Logic 8 character and both hackers and Logic-tradition mages will be hitting that regularly.
With Exception Attribute and Genetic Optimization a human can hit Logic 8 without Cerebral Enhancers, Logic 11 with them. I'd expect corps to have numerous such people employed, either as lead researchers or board members. I like to think of this as the "Damien Knight" level.
And this is focusing on pure Logic, discounting Encephelon, PuSHeD, Neural Nanites, Trance, Genetic Infusions, Psyche, and all the other wonderful ways you can boost your thinking power in one way or another.
It may be Super-Genius to us or to the Logic 2 Sam but for Cyberlogician hackers and logic-based Mages or Technos GDs are significantly smarter than them but not indecipherable. And for the corps, who actually have to worry about GDs as either threats or investors, it's a business expense to find/build someone who can out think a GD.
Edit: Llofwyr is always the exception but that's not rules, just Rule of Cool.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 28 2011, 03:43 AM

http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/21p46/

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 28 2011, 04:19 AM

I keep seeing people say the minimum stats for an unnamed GD are the ones that are "suggested for GMs when pressed for numbers", and that named great dragons are much stronger. How does a dragon grow that powerful without being named? Additionally, the book suggests these stats while in the same breath stating that great dragons are major power players. This almost sounds as if GD's that are major power players, such as Lofwyr, may have those stats. 12 magic is nothing to be embarrassed about people, and if the dragon can't survive with 12, more probably won't help, so stop inflating numbers.

When did initiation start getting limited by essence?

Maybe. But only "maybe" in the sense that I can "maybe" roll palming against a vast field of stones, and come up with their earnings for that year. That use of twist fate is single target against a creature. The buildings in a city are neither a single target, nor a creature.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 04:26 AM

Baseline for Metahumans will typically be 6, 7 with surge, then 9 with Genetic Optimization and Exceptional Attribute. Max bonus to that would be 4, giving you a boosted 13, on par with a Great Dragon. The Great Dragon can boost themselves, most likely with a sustained magic spell, by 6, meaning an augmented 19. Dragons conceivably have access to everything you do, and magic at a higher rating and an exclusivity that metahumans cannot match. Your augmented stats can reach their baseline stats, but that doesn't mean you can reach their augmented stats. Dragons are SUPPOSED to be better than you. Great Dragons are SUPPOSED to be better than THEM. That's why we can sit around and fire our synapses over how, where, and why our feeble little intellects might overcome their massive paranoia.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 28 2011, 04:36 AM

Dragons get ware now? Metahuman drugs work on dragons now? The only dragon I've ever heard of getting any ware was Eliohann and that...ended poorly for him.

Edit:
Dragons are supposed to be better. Given the advance of technology, that gulf is much smaller than it used to be and getting smaller every day (edition).

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 28 2011, 04:45 AM

I thought they just didn't get ware because they had too much to lose. Speaking of which, how does such a gigantic creature have 15 agility? Or reaction for that matter. I find it difficult to see a dragon dodging bullets.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 28 2011, 04:45 AM

I thought they just didn't get ware because they had too much to lose. Speaking of which, how does such a gigantic creature have 15 agility? Or reaction for that matter. I find it difficult to see a dragon dodging bullets.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 05:16 AM

Dragons don't generally get ware, as stated, because they have too much to lose. The DO get magic spells, should they so desire, with little to lose.

Increase [Attribute], SR4A pg 208, Sustained, (F/2)-2, a version exists for every physical and mental stat, and affects both the stat and derived stats while the spell is active (i.e. Increase Reaction or Intuition would increase initiative, Increase Body increases toxin resistance and damage track, etc.).

Maximum Augmented Stat Value is your Baseline Stat Value * 1.5, RAW, so there's a limit to how good your ware can make you. It's the same limit for magic spells/adept powers. And, yet again, Great Dragons can go higher and do more than you can, without even getting into Great Dragon Exclusives (of which there are [insert arbitrary value determined by GM])

They ARE Super Genius Godzillas. They are better, faster, stronger, bigger, and older than you. They have no maximum age. If you manage to back one into a corner, after all of that, he can wait indefinitely while merely risking a temporary (to him/her) addiction to mana-based sustenance while you grow tired, old, and eventually dead.

They have stats, and so they can die. They have better stats than you, and so you can die, too. It doesn't matter how much your e-peen or geek-peen hurts to see something that clearly outclasses your character in every stat-able way from cradle to grave, it IS rules-as-written and rules-as-intended.

HOWEVER, in nature, when a powerful stress enters the environment, the creatures that survive are not always the strongest; they are not always the toughest, nor the smartest, fastest, etc. The creature that survives will be the most adaptable. Forget that the dragon outclasses you in intelligence, speed, strength, fortitude, etc. Be certain that you outclass the dragon in adaptability, which has always been humanity's (and by extension, metahumanity's) greatest collective strength, and is NOT, in fact, a numerical stat. You can even call in a horror-movie standby: you don't have to be more clever than the Great Dragon, just more clever than GM Fiat.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 28 2011, 06:03 AM

On the statting of Great Dragons:

I am reminded of the old adage back in the day when the OD&D book Deities & Demigods came out... If you don't want me to kill the Norse god Loki, don't tell me how many hit points he has.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 28 2011, 06:26 AM

I'm pretty sure awakened animals can't get ware. No one has been able to implant a datajack into a dragon (with one cautionary example).


Ok, let me simplify this debate.
A metahuman can get up to Logic 12 with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional Attribute.
That metahuman can then get up to +10 on all his Logic-linked skills (Nanites, Genes, ware, and BADs)
I'm sure someone else on this board can stretch it higher.
The vast majority of what I used isn't available to a dragon: ware, drugs, SURGE, etc.
Yes, the game allows silly levels of optimization. Yes, Dragons are supposed to be smarter than the runners. But the corps can bring in someone just as smart or smarter. And certain runners are gonna be bouncing around that level.


Leonization put a crimp in that strategy a while ago.


E-peen? (Huh, thanks Urban Dictionary)
Huh? There are numerous things in SR that are supposed to outclass the PCs in one way or another: dragons, cyberzombies, IEs, vampires, cyborgs, etc. Heck, that's the whole concept behind prime runners. And the game has you regularly assault megacorps with more power than the average PC will ever have a shot at. But none of them are any where near invincible or invulnerable.


I fail to see how an abstract argument about adaptability affects in any way whether a player character should be able to kill a GD. And trying to outsmart the GM never ends well, this isn't a competition between the players and the GM.

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I'm arguing two things:
#1 Dragons and GDs are very nasty but they're not the secret masters of the world, or even the most powerful entities in it (again, Llofwyr being the exception). Besides megacorps, who generally outclass everything, GDs still have to contend with a host of other powers that threaten them: national governments, vampire conspiracies, high force spirits, IEs, AAs, the largest criminal syndicates, etc. There's good reason for this as well, if everything ultimately links back to a GD/IE/Vampire plot it gets boring. Invincible enemies also gets boring: that was my biggest complaint in the Harlequin adventures and the biggest one I've heard about DOTA. GDs are big but they're one threat amongst many.
#2 If players want to kill GDs that should be possible, unless the GM has a problem with it. It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic but if the GM is going to apply Schrodinger Armor or Super-Divination, he should just tell the players he doesn't want to play that kind of game. It's a waste of time for the players to play it out if the GM is just going to shut it all down with a "Super-Genius Godzilla" speech. If the players can't effect something in the game, why put it in the game at all?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 28 2011, 08:27 AM

I'll agree with that..



Not always. I think there's a difference in certain NPCs being "on the table" for attacking and others not. Just because you put Lofwyr in your campaign as the distant, way indirect cause of all manner of plotlines, doesn't mean you're obligated to give the PCs any fair chance to have a go at him.
It's a matter of scale; I wouldn't promise the players that they'll be able to topple an AAA either.

---

Anyway, I don't agree that making GDs so powerful would necessarily mean they'd openly subjugate humanity. I could argue that a lot of them don't want to do that. Some believe that humans are more productive and creative when they believe they're free and working for themselves. Others just aren't that interested in controlling humans, as long as they stay away from their lairs. Maybe they just discovered that an open draconic empire generates much more resistance that secret manipulation, and that secret manipulation satisfies all their actual needs.

I personally prefer to think of it as a precarious balance of power: a military could kill a dragon, but it wouldn't be a sure thing for the military, and certainly expensive. Likewise, a dragon can't really afford to defy the military too much, because they could get lucky, and the dragon has too much to lose (eternal life). So draconic rampages tend to be sudden and brief, and preferably when the military isn't quite prepared for it.
So why don't militaries pre-emptively attack dragons? Why don't they pre-emptively attack neighboring militaries? Politics - people start banding together against such an aggressor. And if you've got many potential enemies, why pick fights you don't need with one enemy if you could be needing those soldiers to defend against another enemy?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 28 2011, 02:37 PM

Dang. This is just itching for a joke involving a certain real-world country, but considering the audience...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 28 2011, 03:03 PM

Let's just say that it doesn't happen more than it does...

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 03:16 PM

False assumption. No metatype can get up to Logic 12 base with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional attribute. No metahuman starts with higher than a 6 baseline logic for their metatype, capping baseline boosts at 9, and augmented caps at 13.

For non-metahumans, Pixies, and Fox Shifters can cap unaugmented at 10 with those, meaning an augmented cap at 15, still 4 below dragons with their spells.

Even allowing, for the sake of argument, that dragons cannot cap their skills any higher than a metahuman, they still have spirit assistance, spells that boost the stat by +3 to an augmented cap of 12 including specialization and aptitude. Baseline 28 dice pool not including specialization and aptitude, 31 including both. Hard capped for a pixie or for a fox shifter (neither of which are metahuman, I might add), this comes up to 22 including aptitude, and 24 including skill specialization. Only the fox shifter would have access to all augmentations (requires deltaware).

Leonization would mean you had to let up your assault and put yourself in a vulnerable position for several months. It's not an instant, on-site treatment, it requires you to be put under in a vat for a while. That makes you a perfect target for the dragon and his overpowered high-force spirits.


The game never has you ASSASSINATE a megacorp, normally the best you do is take it down a notch, or divest it of investors. Cyberzombies generally WANT to die, in the metaphysical sense at least, Vampires are always problematic in any game system (more so in World of Darkness because you have to hear them moaning about how unlife is so dreadful). Immortal Elves... well, that's what's for dinner (hehe). Low-fat, free-range, perfectly-aged, goes with almost any fine wine... I could go on. It's not impossible to steal from a dragon's horde (especially if you consider S-k part of Lofwyr's horde, and extraction missions as just that).

Because the abstract is the one place you could conceivably defeat the dragon. The Gread Dragon has stats. The Great Dragon is also BORED (not a stat). The Great Dragon is also CONCEITED (not a stat). These are the areas where you can outclass and outmaneuver the Great Dragon. That's why, if you expect to defeat one, you shouldn't bother thinking inside or outside the box, because the box doesn't matter in the least. What matters is those abstract advantages and how well you the player can put them to use.

You got close with "It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic..."

I'm not saying that Great Dragons are invincible. I'm saying they're NOT invincible. I'm also emphasizing that they're closer to it than you or your character are, regardless of what augmentations you use. As somebody previously stated, Lofwyr watches EVERY television station for entertainment. One of my own players is notorious for the hijinks he pulls when bored; this is how I know a bored Great Dragon would be infinitely more problematic. If they ever find out about your plot (likely), then it's not simply a matter of retribution, it's also a possibility of them astrally spying on your every move just because they want a distraction and find your antics both amusing and informative.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 28 2011, 03:30 PM

One dragon got drunk.

Very, very drunk.

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 04:16 PM

Dragon's don't get ware, but they DO get Magician quality for free, which also means access to spells that boost attributes. A default spell from SR4 Core and SR4A is Increase [Attribute]. There's nothing in Core, SR4A, or Street Magic prohibiting a spell called Increase [Skill] to cover what ware and adept powers can. You also have Analyze Device to offer bonus dice equal to net hits when operating said device. I repeat that dragons get a higher casting pool than people, and so have a higher capacity for more net hits. With or without a 2(Stat+Skill) cap, the dragon has a higher potential in a given action. Increase Reflexes spell offers additional Initiative Passes.

When you're as powerful as a dragon, you don't NEED ware.

Posted by: sabs Jun 28 2011, 04:25 PM

My take on it is usually this:
It cost Thera 2 Behemoths and untold number of high level Adepts to kill 1 Dragon. And the retaliation was so bad that Ghostwalker(Ice Wing) was able to sit in the Theran capital and murder the Theran Prime Magister, and then just sit there and watch them.

Translated into the modern world. It would take multiple squadrons of combat planes to take one down. A serious division of military units. Not a few drones being run by 1 rigger.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jun 29 2011, 06:36 AM

100.
Lockheed Arachnes are cheap.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jun 29 2011, 06:55 AM

*Shrug* Metahumans can get Logic 12, don't care what terms we use, most teams have a mage for the magical stuff, and corps have access to all the legal magical goop that dragons have. Again, dragons are smart, so is everyone else.


A rigger or hacker isn't incapacitated in the least, nor would a mage who can astrally project, although a face might find VR chats a bit more difficult than face-to-face. So Sams and Adepts get hurt but they probably weren't trying to punch the dragon in the face anyway.


Huh? You accused me of being offended by something that outclasses PCs. I replied that numerous things outclass PCs and are supposed to. How does this relate to the power of creatures and corps relative to the PCs?


This is one interpretation of dragons and one interpretation of the proper way to kill them. I won't say it's wrong or uncommon (I think it goes back to Smaug) and would probably apply to Sirrush, Aden, and Hualpa. One of the great things about SR dragons, however, is that all the greats have very distinctive personalities and histories. While I'm sure they're all proud, I think it hurts the characterization of the dragons to portray all of them as old-fashioned and arrogant. Numerous dragons (Dunklezhan, Hestaby, Masaru) have shown humility and Llofwyr's appearance in "Survival of the Fittest" didn't show him as arrogant, rather very..."professional". It's a strength of the setting that you can't stereotype a dragon's personality.
And having bored dragons astrally spying on runners "out of boredom" is very poor GM behavior.



Fair enough but if you have a player, as seems to be the case here, who obviously wants to try to kill dragons there's ways to incorporate that into a campaign that can be a lot of fun. I don't see any problem with that.


I generally agree with the balance of power argument. However, the more powerful the GDs are, generally the less interesting I find them. Ghostwalker stomping on Denver is fairly boring (you might get one good session out of it). Dunklezhan running a massive network of shadowrunners for various purposes while running for the UCAS president is cool. I find it very difficult to combine the scheming Machiavelian dragon with "Super-Genius Godzilla", they just very different archetypes. For NPCs who will not be appearing in many sessions, it's much harder. I think you can have the "stompy" dragon and the "crafty" dragon, and there are examples of both in SR, but you can't really have a dragon be both and I think the "crafty" dragon is much more interesting. This may seem somewhat contradictory to what I said before, so let me clarify:
"Super-Genius Godzilla" is not RAW. Lots of people like use dragons in that way for their games, which is fine, it's their game. I personally find it less interesting than other interpretations of dragons.

Posted by: Critias Jun 29 2011, 07:02 AM

I've got no dog in the "How Great Are Great Dragons" fight at the moment, and I'm not even here to argue against the possibility of hubris, but I just want to ask for any link you've got supporting the Bruce Lee bit. It's been my understanding that he hurt his back lifting weights, not in a fight.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 29 2011, 10:14 AM

It all depends who you ask. His wife would swear up and down it happened in a fight like the movie. Everyone else just said "....What?"

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jun 29 2011, 02:41 PM

Considering that most dragons have massive information nets just getting past their security is going to be a trick. The Dragons themselves are ,as other people have said, tough. The military attacked Alamais with multiple vehical mounted lazar cannons. They thought he was dead and then he turned up again. Killing the Dunkelzahn was a major event and unlikely to be pulled off by petty runners, grade A runners or anything short of a megacorp. Aztechnology had all those toys and Ghostwalker crushed them in Colorado. Hetsaby drove back the military forces in the war between CFS and TT.

Even if you did kill one great dragon, do you not think the rest would start looking for revenge and how many runners could withstand the full influence of MCT and SK being turned on them. That is just 2 dragons.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 03:23 PM

AFAIK MCT isn't particularly dragon-controlled. Wuxing is in bed with Lung, all the Japanacorps try to stay on Ryumyo's good side, and NeoNET has Celedyr, but only S-K is truly pure-dragon-controlled.

Posted by: sabs Jun 29 2011, 03:23 PM

Or so they would like you to think.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 29 2011, 04:31 PM

That's just heresy.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 29 2011, 04:43 PM

There's more to power and wealth than just Corporations after all, and Dragons have some strange views of what the worth of something is.

Hell, look at all the stuff Dunkie had in his will! He stored nearly priceless chunks of magical ore in his SOCK DRAWER! (Them some big hooped socks, too!).

Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 29 2011, 05:03 PM

Makes you wonder what he has hidden for people to "discover" on their own...

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 29 2011, 05:12 PM

Like what he kept in his underwear drawer?

Posted by: Rubic Jun 29 2011, 05:26 PM

You prepare the piloting agents to pre-sort that pile into relatively safe to behold things and the kind of horrors that would make the Shedim question how depraved our reality is. I'll start hoarding the brain bleach for the statistically inevitable failure of automation to save us from somebody else's depravity (and Dunke WAS a president AND A great dragon... two horrible flavors of depravity in one).

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 29 2011, 05:35 PM

Found a magazine... "The Tails of Scales". Brain Bleach, please.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 29 2011, 05:39 PM

"Sir, we've just discovered something that could seriously hinder international relations."

"What?"

"President Dunkelzahn, while he was president, had sex with more women than all the Kennedy's in office combined."

"How the *HELL* did that happen! He wasn't even in office for a day!"

"Apparently he was very busy, Sir."

Posted by: Rubic Jun 29 2011, 06:05 PM

OOH! The feathered serpent special! I don't have that one yet! Fair trade.


3 words: Hemipenis, brain bleach

Posted by: CanRay Jun 29 2011, 10:37 PM

Four Word Rebuttal: Too Kinky To Torture.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 30 2011, 05:10 AM

LBJ slept with more women on accident than Jack Kennedy ever did on purpose.