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Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 03:56 AM

With multiple teams looking for options to overcome matrix signal issues in the Barrens, I thought 'heck, there's a repeater drone in unwired'. If wishes were pennies....

1) laser transceiver is not defined anywhere.
2) directional antenna is not defined anywhere.
3) radio frequency repeater is not defined anywhere.

I think there is a pattern forming here.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 04:21 AM

Wait, what? Those things are all in the books.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 04:24 AM

1) A Laser transceiver is most likely a Laser Link found on page 199, or on p. 58 of Arsenal or p. 39 of Augmentation, only it can both receive and transmit laser signals, hence transceiver.

2) Directional Antenna is on p. 199 of Unwired.

3)The radio frequency repeater is defined within the text; it extends the Signal of a linked device by it's own signal rating, which in this case is 4.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 04:28 AM

Makes more sense than the Retrans Unit in Arsenal, which is nearly the same (except it defaults to Rating 6?).

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 04:39 AM

So if, theoretically, if an altruistic person decided to leave several of these around the barrens and rural areas then wireless would be easy as hell to obtain?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 04:41 AM

Technically, the mesh matrix means it already is. It helps if you don't think about it too much, but all matrix devices are automatically retrans/repeaters, AFAIK. They don't all offer laser/directional security, of course, and they don't all have nice high Signal ratings.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 04:43 AM

Yeah, but the go gangers will just come along, steal the things and strip them for parts. That's what altruism gets you.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 04:51 AM

"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word." And with flying that should limit most gangs.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 04:53 AM

This have been suggested, and tested, for real life use. I know of one project that used modified android phones to act as retransmission units in a mesh network via their wifi radios. And more stationary mesh networks have been erected using wifi hotspots attached to lamp posts and such.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 05:01 AM

You highly underestimate the resourcefulness of the ghetto. Reality Hackers or some Blood Mountain Boy's kid brother would bring the thing down. Or some kid with a lasso.
You can't leave nice things lying around in the slums of the world. These people have nothing. Nothing but time to figure out how to take your stuff. It's the same reason there will never be cameras patrolling South Dallas*, because people will take them.

*Or insert whichever bad part of town is near your city. Except CanRay. I'm pretty sure the bad part of Winnipeg is the nice part of anywhere else.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 27 2011, 05:04 AM

I would argue that, but I have a collection of "borrowed" city/county/state property. Though I like the lasso idea. And with a 4 or 6 that could be pretty high.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 05:29 AM

hobgoblin, I'm not suggesting it, I'm saying that's how the Matrix 2.0 has always worked by RAW. AFAIK.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 05:52 AM

Heh, it was the "don't think about it too much" that set me on the path of rant...

As for leaving things in the barrens. Iirc, one reason for telephone not going big in some African nations is that people would cut the wires and sell them as scrap copper. And i think similar is happening in Europe and NA in recent years as well.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 27 2011, 07:41 AM

The thing is hobgoblin, copper wire is valuable, especially for the amount you can get if it's unguarded. The parts on a matrix repeater not so much, presumably it's more valuable left in place.

Hell personally if i was that altruistic runner or entity I'd give the repeaters to the gangs and give a quick demo on the benefits of having them up.

Now i'm tempted to build some scenarios around project uplift.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:54 AM

Valuable to whom? The community? Go-gangs don't have a sense of creating a sustainable community.
On the black market that thing is worth 900 nuyen. More if you break it down for parts.
Having access to the Matrix v. having an extra grand, that requires long term thinking, something gangs aren't notorious for. These are people who live for the here and now.
Having wireless access over the neighborhood may help in the long term, but so is having a violence free neighborhood, graduating high school and keeping drugs off the streets. These cats have no use of wireless Matrix for everyone. They have use of bullets, drugs and cyberware.

Plus, who is to say the gang robbing the area is from that area. Soon you have gang wars over who gets these 3,000 nuyen brand new drones. That's the cost of a Dodge Scoot.
Then, what is Lone Star comes in and confiscates these drones, claiming they were bought with drug money. Can you prove they weren't? If you can, you've got years before you'll get to appear in court to do so.
Same goes for various corps.

The Barrens are a dystopian miasma of depravity and human misery. It's what makes running possible.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 27 2011, 08:32 AM

You can boost your signal range to what? 10km? All it needs is one(!) other device with access to another device with access to another device with access to....you get it. You can also have satellite access. Who needs a repeater drone for matrix access in the barrens?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 27 2011, 09:49 AM

So your entire argument is that it will never work because the barrens is a dystopian miasma and nothing will ever change that? Seems rather flimsy to me, a moderately successful gang isn't stupid, and might want a way to make phone calls among their membership. If they are really too stupid to live they will be too stupid to catch the drones. None of that changes that having wireless access in the neighborhood is good in the short term, it allows unlimited access to porn if nothing else.

Basically your working really hard to come up with circular logic reasons why the idea won't fly, when I can just as easily come up with reasons why.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 27 2011, 10:25 AM

If just a bunch of people have cell phones, fridges with wifi and a few other gewgaws, you quickly get wireless coverage all across the neighborhood. Considering how easily the matrix spreads in SR4, you really need to make an actual effort to keep it out.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 12:35 PM

inhibitor paint and wallpaper works both ways...

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 27 2011, 12:46 PM

its so easy to spread, that shadow MSPs can make a profit charging for coverage of your area. just get some blimp drones that can stay up for days, give them a second commlink to act as a matrix hub, and slave the drone to you home nexi. spoofing would have to be within the directional antenna side of the drone. and the coverage is easy to move as needed. in case some idiot shoots at the drone, give the drone a rifle to shoot back.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 12:52 PM

Appreciate the response but....

Negative. The laser transceiver is given a rating. The laser link is a ratingless device. While it *appears* to be the closest match, I do not *assume* they are the same.

I search all over and missed that; Doh! End of the night searching. Thanks!

This seems to be a function already provided by any node in a mesh network. I guess I am expecting it to be something more by way of definition....

EDIT: Now I see the table has ratings for both the laser link & directional antenna, though the text neither mentions either, nor any affects of variant ratings. The lack of errata is frustrating..

Posted by: Modular Man Jun 27 2011, 01:00 PM

On the other hand, a gang in the area might think: "Hey, three of these drones are humming around in the neighborhood, one on our turf, the other two somewhere else. So, we only need one. And if we grab those things, sell them, and set up a satellite uplink in our headquarters, we can make people pay us for their matrix access, now that they're used to it! We even got spare cash and a steady income after that!" And down go the repeater drones. A pack of wizkids are easiliy capable of collecting them, and so are other gangs.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 01:01 PM

I've been working on very detailed, to scale, maps of the Puyallup Barrens and you have to be WAY out to not be within 10km of a tower, given that some people living in the class C areas are going to have coms with signal ranges as low as 100m (metalink).

Posted by: Thanee Jun 27 2011, 01:02 PM

That was my impression, too, when I first saw that drone... what's so special about it? Every node can do that (because otherwise it wouldn't be a node).

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 01:09 PM

Given that most people can only afford coms with signal ratings 2-3 (100m/400m) this is where I see the spotty nature of the matrix access in the Barrens. When your com hits a perfect storm of being able to compute a route to civilization.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 01:12 PM

The more I think about it, its almost like a legitimate spoof... Perhaps the missing additional commentary is that this represents special code that allows a user to extend the range of a slaved node..?

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 01:24 PM

The retransmitter and the mesh network works on slightly different levels. The mesh network deals with the data packages, while the retransmitter just repeats the radio signal.

In real life term, the mesh network is a tcp/ip router, while the retransmitter acts as a wifi repeater.

And i think the rating of the links and the antenna is how far they reach in their pointed direction. Or maybe it is better to say how far away from the other end they can be.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jun 27 2011, 02:15 PM

Along the lines of what Hobgoblin is saying, the use for the retrans unit and a repeater drone is simple--use them when you don't want to use the mesh network. If you are worried about signal security, or want to keep everything on a closed loop, they are perfect for extending range without hardware upgrades. Instead, if you don't care and want to use the mesh, then don't sweat it.

Re: Map of Puyallup--Don't forget to take into account signal attenuation due to landscaping/construction. (Unwired p. 62) Just like when you drive in a tunnel, your FM radio can start to lose the signal, without secondary relay points throughout the area, the buildings can block signal and reduce it by a few points.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 27 2011, 03:01 PM

Was using a cloud of mini flying drones with Retrans units in the Missions games at Origins.

They're programmed to have one drop out of the cloud, to act as a relay point, if they start losing signal back to the source. Came in handy when exploring a deep cavern that wireless doesn't penetrate. Left a satlink outside the cave for the last drone to connect to.





-k

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 27 2011, 03:46 PM

Reminds me of a system i read about recently, about location tracking of firefighters. The system would use hardened relay points that would drop from the firefighters belt as the signal got weaker. And when i say hardened i mean being able to take the fire, the water and being potentially kicked around by the firefighters moving around inside the building. All this so the guy in charge will be able to keep track of where everyone is inside, and their status.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 04:10 PM

Interesting calculation: Default antenna is R4 (400m). Can be upgraded to R6(10km) where it gets an +2 rating along the direct path (effective R8 = 100km).

Now that is one hot drone.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 07:38 PM

So your argument is there are no such things as ghettos. I'll head down to South Dallas and let everyone know. They'll be thrilled.
People who have been rejected by society aren't stupid for living for the here and now over the long term, they simply have no choice. Gangs don't need a mesh network, they need food, bullets and drugs. It doesn't make sense to let your city decay, but it doesn't make sense to drop out of high school your senior year either, which is when most people do it. It doesn't make sense to destroy your own neighborhood in a riot, but Spike Lee called that doing the right thing.
Urban renewal is expensive and long term. In order to keep that drone in the air, you need some type of order and order doesn't exist in the Barrens. Lone Star won't provide it and the nature of a go gang doesn't allow it.
Even if everything goes right and the Barrens start getting better, what you get is gentrification. As the neighborhood starts getting nicer, the people who grew up there can't afford to live there anymore and the Barrens just moves to a different part of the city.

I'm not trying to come up with reasons why it won't fly, I'm telling you why it doesn't. There is little Matrix coverage in the Barrens. You don't know why. I'm telling you why. You can ignore explanations at your own peril.
Poverty doesn't make sense, but it does exist.

There are some places that don't have a mesh network, like the Barrens or the Mojave desert. If your team of runners is trying to clip telesma from Joshua trees and you need to stay in communication over miles, this is probably the way to go.
It also helps for creating mutual signal range to things for which you may need a direct subscription, like slaved devices.

The text mentions what the ratings for both the directional antenna and laser transmitter are(4 and 3, respectively.)
The rating of the directional antenna determines it's Signal rating, as described on p. 199 of Unwired.
The rating of the Laser Link determines it's Signal Rating. If the Laser Link in Arsenal has a range of 100m and it is a Rating 2 Laser Link, Rating equals Signal. This Signal is degraded due to visibility modifiers such as fog and smoke.
There is no errata needed for this device.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 07:48 PM

As I alluded to previous with the following formula:

----
That is a matter of opinion. Thanks for providing yours.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 27 2011, 07:51 PM

So, you had all the rules at your fingertips already? Why exactly do we need errata for this piece of equipment. Sorry, but it does seem prettty straight forward to me.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 27 2011, 07:57 PM

My preference would be that the rules use clear and consistent terminology. The repeater drone references "laser transceiver" which we assume is a "laser link" and " radio frequency repeater" defined no where else in the rules except with the phrase "to extend the signal range of linked devices by its own". We have extrapolated what is a playable set of rules in each of those cases, however, one GM to the next may not interpret them the same. In that case errata would insure a clear and consistent interpretation.

That's all, just want clear and consistent.

Posted by: Fortinbras Jun 27 2011, 08:24 PM

It seems pretty clear and consistent to me. Everything used in the device is explained in detail within a page of the description. I don't think anyone is interpreting anything on this device to be something other than what it is, even you.

When describing a device, you can't give a full rules explanation for every aspect of the device or you end up with a wordy, overly complex grognard of a tomb.
It would look like this

There are tons of things in a game a diverse as Shadowrun that are contradictory or confusing, but this isn't one of them.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 27 2011, 08:34 PM

Yeah, of all the broken rules and crazy omissions, this doesn't even rate a zero.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jun 27 2011, 11:20 PM

While your at it see if they have cell phones, I betcha they do. In SR the matrix is literally as ubiquitous as pay as you go cells. Your basic argument is basically their too busy being actively stupid to use modern conveniences.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 28 2011, 02:07 AM

Edit:
I don't see there is much more to be said here.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 28 2011, 04:46 AM

Not surprising, as a real life sat antenna the size of a cutting board can reach sats.

Still, to be effective at that range there would need to be a similar device at the other end. Or else the max effective range becomes the smaller of the two.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2011, 04:48 AM

Which is true in SR4, though you can do a couple tricks with one-way communications anyway.

Posted by: Headshot_Joe Jun 28 2011, 06:32 AM

True dat.

However, this does imply that the devices in the drone are only used in said drone, and are not available by any other means for use in any other manner. It may have made more sense to detail each of these devices as a vehicle/drone modification or piece of gear and add them as standard upgrades for the drone. Otherwise you run into issues in some environmental conditions (severe winds, acid rain, thunder storms, bullet showers, any form of hail, etc). And what if you wanted that signal extension underwater? Do you have to buy a submersible, put the drone in it, and drive/rig it to the location you need it?

Posted by: Mäx Jun 28 2011, 11:55 AM

Whut, those devices are Electronics that are in the next page of the book.

Posted by: Redjack Jun 28 2011, 12:11 PM

Agreed.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 28 2011, 01:39 PM

With some Chameleon Coating and Thermal Dampening your non-internet appreciating gangers are unlikely to notice your flying relays, though I am prone to go with a big antennae on my barrens flat rather than some kind of relay system myself...