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Posted by: Gerzel Jun 28 2011, 06:25 PM

Hypothetically what would be required for a character in SR4 to be puppeteered by an implant?

Say...

How much can Skillwires override a person's will? What kind of roles might a character have to make if say somehow skillwires were to be hacked?

Simrig + Skillwires + Datafilter seems to be coming close to the basics. Would just need an implanted commlink or nexus to provide the control interface wouldn't you?

Posted by: Rubic Jun 28 2011, 06:33 PM

AFAIK, you only really need personasoft or memory hacking, though you could turn them into a biodrone with the proper implant.

Posted by: Modular Man Jun 28 2011, 07:02 PM

Did your read about "Charlie Wire" in "Vice"? If not, I definitely suggest that. Short: Some criminal genius who's infamous for puppeteering random people.
He seems to use a combination of skillwires, internal commlinks, cybereyes and various hallucinogenics.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2011, 07:11 PM

RAW, you can't do it at all.

A human Stirrup Interface (or other biodrone things), if allowed, would probably allow puppeteering.

GM-approval could allow skillwires to do some things approaching this, but it's more like 'you try to shoot X and shoot Y instead'.

Cyberlimb hacking could also be allowed (GM approval) to do crude things, though arguably *not* anything complex like shooting other people.

Personafix really is masking/replacing the resident personality, so that would work in some ways.

Certain kinds of AR software could function (in a manner similar to the Orientation Goad/biodrone stuff) to let you 'trick' the subject into doing what you want. This is the basic 'friends look like steaks when you're hungry' trick.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 28 2011, 11:33 PM

There aren't any clear rules on how to do this, but on the other hand, Bunraku are a long-established part of the setting. So I suggest looking to see how that is done; I think it's a BTL/Skillwire combo.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 28 2011, 11:36 PM

Seems like fluff from Neuromancer that went....... Yup.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2011, 11:57 PM

It's just straight Personafix, p259.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 08:10 AM

It's too bad those never get actual rules...

Posted by: ShadowPavement Jun 29 2011, 11:29 AM

If the target to to pupetted had the right cyber I'd probably make it a rigging test on the part of the controller. Probably the Pilot Anthromorph skill, with the Willpower of the puppet being a penalty to the test.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 29 2011, 11:37 AM

I think that was part personafix, part memory blocker (either in SR4 or Augmentation).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 29 2011, 01:38 PM

Datafilter, yeah. Personafix does the work, datafilter just ensures they don't remember. No rigging, though, or even direct control.

Posted by: The Jopp Jun 29 2011, 01:40 PM

it's easy

Restricted Gear - Stirrup Interface

Sim Module
Stirrup Interface
Cyberears
Cybereyes
Commlink

Activate Sim module and put your subject in a dreamstate and remote control your puppet.

All gear van also be bought second hand (-20% cost). Used ware is +1 availability so the stirrup rating 1 goes up to availability 16 - still below 20.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 01:43 PM

Except the Stirrup Interface only works on animals.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 29 2011, 02:01 PM

It's like people don't read the thread.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 29 2011, 02:13 PM

Officially yes. You can be damn sure that all the corps that have any interest in cybernetics and/or biodrones have prototyped it for metahuman use. Hell, it would be the perfect prisoner punishment...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2011, 02:17 PM

Maybe, but Personafixing a prisoner is just so much cheaper...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 02:45 PM

Sure, black project prototypes, but nothing in the "catalog" of RAW-functional stuff yet.

Rigging people is supposed to be on the "just over the horizon" edge of SOTA - we're getting close, but it's not there yet.



The Personafix route is really quite different; you're manipulating who someone thinks they are, what they see and want. But they are in charge of their bodies, just not so much in charge of their minds. It's definitely not rigging-style control; you need to manipulate their feelings and perceptions to guide them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2011, 02:53 PM

True, but making them into someone who [thinks he] is a productive member of society would not be all that hard to do.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 03:19 PM

It has its uses, but it's very different from rigging someone. It's more like high-speed psychology.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2011, 03:33 PM

No arguments there... Has a lot of potential for making a Great Manchurian Candidate...

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 29 2011, 04:00 PM

that would be more in the realm of a psychotropic IC. Tho mostly because you want the effect to be there even when the BTL is not plugged in.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 05:06 PM

Depending on your particular style of perversity, of course

It's a shame they didn't explore rules for BTLs and Personafixes the way they did with drugs.. would have been easy to use those same style mechanics.

For example, a Personafix with high self-confidence, that you can slot if you have a job interview that you don't want to screw up by being nervous. Or if you need to stare down the Yakuza boss without flinching.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 29 2011, 05:31 PM

The Former Bunraku Joytoy looks like a more viable background all the time... If there were rules.

Posted by: Gerzel Jun 29 2011, 05:45 PM

For now...

Posted by: CanRay Jun 29 2011, 05:49 PM

Haven't seen "A Clockwork Orange", have you? It's cheaper, but does it actually work?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 05:52 PM

I've thought about that too.. what it really needs is a price cut on low-rating ActiveSofts. Imagine when you can just slot a PersonaFix and some relevant Activesofts to become anyone. That's got very interesting RP potential. If only the challenge of playing all kinds of different people all the time.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 29 2011, 06:17 PM

Do everything need to have some kind of ingame numeric effect before people bother to use it? what happened to the role in roleplaying?

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 29 2011, 06:35 PM

Numbers are the bones. Roleplaying is the flesh.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2011, 08:04 PM

Indeed I have... A very disturbing movie, to say the least...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 08:12 PM

I think it merits some rules.. suppose someone forces a PersonaFix onto your character. You want to know if it totally dominates you, or if there's a chance your will is strong enough to resist it. That's when crunch starts to matter.

We have rules for the beneficial and adverse effects of drugs. BTLs resemble drugs, but supposedly even more intense. Why don't BTLs have any game effects except generic addiction?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 29 2011, 08:15 PM

I wasn't aware that Personafix could be resisted, really. It does seem like an issue that could come up, in a world of no-chip BTLs, hackers, etc.

The reality amp BTLs are the drug-stat ones, and I feel like your basic entertainment drugs don't need stats. Obviously, Personafix aren't exactly normal 'recreational'.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 08:38 PM

Inflicting a meek, submissive personafix on a VR hacker (who has a hot sim module, naturall) would be rather a killer move...

I think it could use some crunch to make it practicable in games.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 29 2011, 08:47 PM

It's my understanding that Personafix is a complete replacement, though I can easily see how that could be wrong. If true, though, it's not very drug-like.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jun 29 2011, 09:42 PM

Maybe CGL can come up with another mini-supplement about drugs & BTLs?

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 29 2011, 10:32 PM

Dear Buddha: please bring me a pony, and a plastic rocket, and a mini-supplement.

Posted by: Gerzel Jun 30 2011, 03:25 AM

Here is how I'd do the persona fix resistance:

First the character in question has to be struggling to resist the thing and that mental struggle takes work. Also persona fixes don't generally give direct orders they are more subtle, perhaps insidious than that, and change the personality and thus work on how the character reacts to their environment.

When the character and persona fix are in direct conflict then a contested roll between the two is made. The roll is the character's will vs the fix's rating. Simple enough.

I'd then add in certain modifiers depending on the situation and type of fix. After all a persona fix bought by a middle manager to be more assertive and spontaneous in the bedroom is going to be vastly different from a fix forced on your friendly neighborhood bunraku-slave even though they might be similar in subject matter. This calls for options!

I've not read up on fixes but the legal ones are probably both restricted and limited in rating, probably around 3 or so.

Options:
Conscious Control - Required for all legal fixes, provides the user with internal command/control interface to turn the fix on or off with a simple action with a conscious choice on the character's part.

Punishing - Punishing fixes work to wear down their subject's resistance. After successfully resisting a fix's programming the character takes stun damage equal to the level of the punishing option. The character gets a Willpower roll to resist each success stopping one point of stun damage.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 30 2011, 04:06 AM

Personafix: The Carrot and the Stick, directly to your brain!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 30 2011, 04:49 AM

Again, the description of Personafix seems to be personality *replacement*. I agree that more subtle, 'nudging' technology should exist (break bad habits, anger management, electronic prozac, etc.), but I don't think that's what the RAW Personafix is. The latter kind needs to be added, probably under a different name (for clarity). It seems like it's similar to reality amps, but not enough that it'd fit under that label.

Posted by: Aku Jun 30 2011, 04:55 AM

Wouldnt those fit under BTL chips?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 30 2011, 04:57 AM

Sure, but *everything* is a BTL chip. Personafix already are, tripchips, dreamers, and probably the reality amps are too (I forget). A BTL is just anything that runs hot sim simsense on you. This kind of 'personality nudger' is closest to moodchips, I'd say; but, again, not identical, because moodchips are a transient high recreational drug, not a personality bender.

There's obviously tons of precedent in the literature for techno personality editors, from 'taser zap when you pick your nose' to 'Terminal Man' (whoops, error!). It'd fit right in in SR. It's just not what Personafix is described as in the SR4 rules. Are they described differently elsewhere, maybe Unwired? I'll look.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 30 2011, 05:00 AM

A BTL is a Simsense chip (A movie you experience) with the limiters not put into place, and the effects cranked up to 13. (California Hots are cranked to "just" 11. ).

Personafix chips are more like Skillsofts and Knowsofts rolled into one with a particular personality put into place or to assist in training you with that personality. SportSofts are an example that have the personality of the sports heroes incorporated into them (Wolf And Raven by Michael A. Stackpole for more details.).

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 1 2011, 04:38 AM

The real question is two fold.

1: How to make a persona fix.

2: How to impose a persona fix of ones self on people who are trying to stop you from achieving your goals. As long as the targets comlink is hot sim capable and they have a currently active DNI I think a hacker could manage this part easily enough . . .

Posted by: Modular Man Jul 1 2011, 04:08 PM

And there are "direct input" BTL chips. Those don't need a hot sim module, just a datajack... (to be found in SR4A, p. 259)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 1 2011, 07:06 PM

Right, but only because they essentially have their own built-in hot sim module. It's a big tradeoff, because those are physical chips, whereas the other 'chips' are just wireless downloads (which sounds a lot more useful to the evil hacker in this scenario).

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 08:41 PM

Has anyone played with the idea of a techno-drug? Kinda Snow Crash style? Or how even now people are trying to figure out what sounds and sights could trigger the brain to go nuts. Hack into someone's cyberears and cybereyes and see what happens?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 1 2011, 08:44 PM

That's what BTLs are.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 08:56 PM

Well yeah, but more so. As you mentioned BTLs need hot-sim. I just want them to hear and see some really weird stuff. Smell and feel and taste I don't care about. Hell, could just use their AR for that but then they could just remove it. Or pull a Fight Club and flip the reality filter program. Take several pictures of a scary looking person and have that person pop-up from time to time. Do the movie A Bus Just Went Between Us And Now I'm Gone maneuver. Or, like Snow Crash, just make them insane with video.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 2 2011, 09:21 AM

I think the idea is that for it to have such an intense impact, you need ASIST access - sim. And if someone's using Hot sim, their vulnerability is much higher/the rush is much stronger.