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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Infected and Dual Natured Quality
Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 28 2011, 09:30 PM
As far as I can tell, only certain Infected are dual natured:
Ghoul
Bandersnatch
Loup-Garou
The rest are not, including:
Banshee
Dzoo-Noo-Qua
Fomoraig
Goblin
Nosferatu
Vampire
Wendigo
Does this seem right to anyone else? It seems like have a magical infection in your blood would make you dual natured. Anyone have any comments on this? Any ideas as to why some are Dual natured and some are not?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 28 2011, 09:40 PM
Arbitrary. *shrug* It'd be a mistake to justify either way based on logic.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 28 2011, 10:46 PM
It is arbitrary, but taking a better look, only loup-garou and Ghouls gain the dual natured quality (Sasquaches are already dual natured, and Grendals, harvesters, and Gnawers don't gain it either. Neither are Drop Bears or Chuppacabra.) This is a little lopsided, since ghouls are vastly more common, and Loup-garou are the most common HMHVVII (And also the only ones that *can* jump metavariant- or so the fluff suggests)
Posted by: Summerstorm Jun 29 2011, 01:26 PM
Hm... i am not 100% sure about this, but vampires (and other) once HAD astral sight, or not? Were they completely dual natured? I mean back in other editions... i vaguely remember my vampire character being overwhelmed by the astral sight when he first woke up changed.
So yeah, maybe they SHOULD have it.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jun 29 2011, 01:32 PM
So yeah, maybe they SHOULD have it.
I can`t speak for older editions, but I do know that in 4th, whenever a character is affected by HMHVV, of all strains, as long as they retain sentience, they have a good chance of gaining one of the awakened qualities (Usually Magician, Adept, or Mys ad, but Spell/Spirit Knack, and astral sight are possible as well), and if they already had the possibility through latent awakening, they automatically awaken.
Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 29 2011, 01:48 PM
So yeah, maybe they SHOULD have it.
Of course, in old versions Vampires had immunity to normal weapons and added their essence to their strength... I just think that all infected should have the Dual Natured quality, but I guess not.
Posted by: TheOOB Jun 29 2011, 07:38 PM
Part of it I think revolved around the fact that being dual-natured really sucks, and it's a strong disadvantage of ghouls and loup-garous which are more curses than benefits. Vampires and what not are supposed to be powerful, so they shouldn't have such a crippling weakness.
Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 29 2011, 08:03 PM
Hmm... able to attack spirits with unarmed and bypass their immunity to normal weapons, ability to see astrally... Oh, and Dual Natured Creatures dont receive a penalty for physical tests when viewing the astral.
Dual Natured is awesome. It makes initiation and the Masking metamagic a high priority, but that already would be for someone wanting to conceal their infection.
My group always treated all magically infected as Dual Natured. Going to have to talk it over with them, may want to house rule this, or maybe going to have to change some characters around a bit.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jun 29 2011, 08:05 PM
Yes, it sounds great when you only mention some possible benefits, and ignore the well-known drawbacks.
Posted by: Apathy Jun 29 2011, 09:14 PM
As I remember it (haven't played in a while), the only way to get past a ward without setting it off if you're dual natured is:
- Initiate and get masking.
- Find someone who is authorized to go through the ward and study them for an extended time so you can mimic their signature.
- Mask the authorized user's signature and walk through. The ward makes a test to pierce your masking with a threshhold of your initiate grade?
Is this correct?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 29 2011, 09:29 PM
- Initiate and get masking.
- Find someone who is authorized to go through the ward and study them for an extended time so you can mimic their signature.
- Mask the authorized user's signature and walk through. The ward makes a test to pierce your masking with a threshhold of your initiate grade?
Is this correct?
Essentially, Yes...
Posted by: Irion Jun 29 2011, 09:39 PM
@Apathy
This person is most likely inside the ward...
Not to mention that said spirit is able to beat you up while moving quite fast.
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 30 2011, 02:43 AM
Hmm... able to attack spirits with unarmed and bypass their immunity to normal weapons, ability to see astrally... Oh, and Dual Natured Creatures dont receive a penalty for physical tests when viewing the astral.
Dual Natured is awesome. It makes initiation and the Masking metamagic a high priority, but that already would be for someone wanting to conceal their infection.
My group always treated all magically infected as Dual Natured. Going to have to talk it over with them, may want to house rule this, or maybe going to have to change some characters around a bit.
There's also the fact that a projecting magician can Manabolt you into oblivion and you can do precisely sod-all to stop him unless you are also awakened. So there's that.
Posted by: Eimi Jun 30 2011, 06:49 AM
Uh, I have my books right here, and I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that Vampires (or the other infected except for Ghouls and Loup-Garou) are dual natured. Their abilities and drawbacks in 4e are virtually identical to their abilities and drawbacks in the 1e core, with the only real change at any point being that they lost the +Essence to their Strength they had in previous editions in 4e. They never had Immunity to Normal Weapons, either, except for when they were in Mist Form, like every other critter with Mist Form. Of course, older-editions Regeneration was nutso compared to 4e Regeneration, so that went a longer way in their tanking.
Editions previous to 4e were as nebulous as hell as to what was a "Dual Being" and what wasn't, with nothing in any of the critter entries making it clear what was and what wasn't, except a bit of shadowtalk on a few, like the Hellhound, outright stating that they were. If the assumption was that every paranormal creature was a dual being, it was never stated outright, one of the more annoying omissions of assumption the game has had throughout its history.
So. Either most Critters used to be dual natured then suddenly weren't in 4e, or the ones that aren't in 4e never were. Pick your poison. Vampires aren't and weren't ever dual natured in 4e, as were none of the other Infected that didn't have "Dual Natured" in their Powers section. The idea that they are is a strange permutation of urban legend, one I've slipped into myself at one point in the past, but it's right there in black and white (or color and black in the 4eAE core).
Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 30 2011, 06:16 PM
Honestly though... who is going to play a Vampire that isnt an Adept or Magician?
Editions previous to 4e were as nebulous as hell as to what was a "Dual Being" and what wasn't, with nothing in any of the critter entries making it clear what was and what wasn't, except a bit of shadowtalk on a few, like the Hellhound, outright stating that they were. If the assumption was that every paranormal creature was a dual being, it was never stated outright, one of the more annoying omissions of assumption the game has had throughout its history.
So. Either most Critters used to be dual natured then suddenly weren't in 4e, or the ones that aren't in 4e never were. Pick your poison. Vampires aren't and weren't ever dual natured in 4e, as were none of the other Infected that didn't have "Dual Natured" in their Powers section. The idea that they are is a strange permutation of urban legend, one I've slipped into myself at one point in the past, but it's right there in black and white (or color and black in the 4eAE core).
My question simply was, why are some with Magical infection dual natured, and some are not?
Good point though, they were not dual natured in 3rd edition (just checked the critters book). Question still stands... why?
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 30 2011, 06:23 PM
Uh, page reference? Reading the entry on Masking in SR4A (p. 198), it lets an initiate disguise his/her aura to look like someone else. It doesn't say anything about making a dual-natured being not be dual-natured anymore, or about defending against hostile spells. If you assume that assensing is the only way the enemy has to identify you, then sure, you can blend into a crowd. If it isn't, you're still getting Manabolted to death with damn few options for retaliation.
Posted by: darthmord Jun 30 2011, 07:02 PM
It comes from the fact that you can use Masking to make yourself appear completely mundane. That would hide the fact that you are Dual Natured.
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 30 2011, 07:12 PM
Yes, I believe I covered that. It hides the fact that you're dual-natured, it doesn't remove the fact that you're dual-natured. If the only way the enemy can track you is astrally, then yes, you can avoid being tracked, or at least make it harder. If anyone on the opposing team has, oh I dunno, a picture of you, on the other hand, you're still hosed. Or, heaven forbid, a ritual link. Then you're comprehensively boned, because they can hit you from the other side of the planet.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 30 2011, 07:31 PM
Ritual Link always makes me think of the movie Gattaca. Wake up every morning, sand blast your hair and skin, burn what well off, go on about your day.
Posted by: Apathy Jun 30 2011, 08:07 PM
Ritual link doesn't apply to the argument, because then you're hosed whether you're dual natured or not.
Theoretically, a way to figure out who's masking in a crowd of apparent mundanes, is to go astral and manaball the area. None of the people who actually are mundanes will be touched, but anyone masking is still a valid target, even if the caster didn't know he was there.
Posted by: DamienKnight Jun 30 2011, 08:07 PM
Not to mention the fact that you always see in both astral and physical, and will likely notice him, and you CAN target him with your dual natured foot up his ass.
Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 30 2011, 08:22 PM
Masking allows you to appear mundane, among other things, to someone who cannot break it. It does absolutely nothing to 'conceal' your astral form. Masking or not, you still have an astral body, and it is not invisible.
The Concealment power is pretty much the only way to hide that.
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 30 2011, 08:28 PM
Again, cite a page, please. If the mage can see you, and he knows that you're dual-natured, I cannot find anything in RAW preventing him from nuking you. Apathy also makes an excellent point. If he knows Manaball, he can blast an area, and you'll take damage whether you're masked or not. Handy, that.
A) You'll likely notice him if you happen to be looking for him, and B) how do you propose to make a physical attack if he's floating a couple stories up?
Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 30 2011, 08:29 PM
The Concealment power is pretty much the only way to hide that.
Of course it only applies to those that don't break it. That's like saying camo only works against those that can't spot you in the trees. No drek.
Though I think the best use of masking would be to change what type of creature you look like astrally. "I think that's our guy...." "Idiot, we're looking for a ghoul. Not a free spirit. Pull your head out your hoop."
Posted by: TheOOB Jun 30 2011, 09:57 PM
Masking allows you to alter your aura, and aura is the intangible reflection of a living being on the astral plane. A dual natured being is actively present in the astral plane as an astral form, not just an aura, and masking does nothing to hide an astral form, even saying it could alter you to look like another astral form is taking a liberal interpretation of the rules. I personally make a home brew metamagic that allows naturally dual natured beings to suppress their astral form.
Astral Suppression
Prerequisites: Dual-Natured
Just as many magicians learn to send their consciousness to the astral plane and leave their bodies behind, some dual-natured beings have learned to hide their astral forms within themselves and act temporarily as physical beings. As a complex action, a dual-natured being with this metamagic can suppress their astral form, losing the dual-natured quality and acting as a purely physical being. While suppressing their astral forms, the initiate has no astral form, is unaffected by astral spells, and can freely pass through wards just as a normal physical being could do. Supressing one's astral form requires concentration, applying a -2 penalty to all action performed while doing so. The initiate may suppress their astral form for a number of hours a day equal to their initiate grade, once the duration runs out they immediately become a dual natured being again, and cannot use this ability until they have rested for at least 8 hours. This power in no way affects the aura of the initiate suppressing their astral form, such is a purview of the masking metamagic.
Improved Astral Suppression
Prerequisites: Dual-Natured, Astral Supression
With this power the initiate can quickly suppress their astral form, and no longer needs to spend as much effort maintaining the ability. The initiate no longer suffers the -2 penalty to actions while suppressing their astral form, and may supress their astral form as a free action by succeeding a threshold three Willpower+Charisma test.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jun 30 2011, 10:02 PM
Interesting...
Posted by: Tanegar Jun 30 2011, 10:02 PM
Ahh! I hadn't picked up on the distinction between auras and astral forms. Thank you.
Posted by: Christian Lafay Jun 30 2011, 10:23 PM
That is an interesting thought. I will admit that I always assumed that for a dual-natured creature that their aura and their astral form being one in the same, in their appearance at least, as they are so closely tied together. Hmmmm
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 6 2011, 03:36 PM
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).
A fireball you can drop around a corner and everyone is hit in the AOE, even if you cant see them. If a mage is not using astral perception, and someone is wearing a chameleon suit, he cannot see them, therefore cannot target them with a stunball. Everyone around him would drop, but the invisible character would not. Same principle for concealing the astrally active part of your form, making yourself look mundane. If all they see is a mundane character, they cannot target them while astrally projecting.
Thats my take on it anyway. Either way, dual-natured is more benefit than detriment IMO, even if mages can target you.
Sure a mage could be hovering in the air, but in a bar, with a decent agility, you can reach any part of the bar with a jump. You see him, you roll better on your initiative, you go claw his spellcasting face off. Sure he can run away super fast, but if he hangs around to spend an action dropping a manabomb, he better not miss.
Posted by: Manunancy Jul 6 2011, 05:09 PM
Honestly though... who is going to play a Vampire that isnt an Adept or Magician?
That suppose you can find a group willing to take you onboard despite being a vampire - which would strongly point at a vampire club or the like. Which means usually underground groups with their own agenda - which is not guaranteed to be something you (or the other PCs) would agree with.
Even if there's a wide variation in shadowrun's vampires tempr, it seems there's more than a fair share of bastards in the lot. Nosferatus are even worse in that regard, being the newb into a magical group of the buggers is likely to require a lot of lube.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 6 2011, 06:31 PM
A dual-natured critter may use Masking to appear mundane and if the observer does not beat its masking, he won't be able to target it through the Astral Plane.
A shapeshifter for instance may use masking to look like a dual-natured human or to look like a mundane critter of the same species.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 6 2011, 06:37 PM
Even Indirect AoE spells require LOS to the center of the effect, though not LoS to each target (Manaball, in contrast, does).
Posted by: Platinum Jul 8 2011, 02:38 AM
Of course, in old versions Vampires had immunity to normal weapons and added their essence to their strength... I just think that all infected should have the Dual Natured quality, but I guess not.
This is false. They were never dual natured. They only had immunity to normal weapons in mist form. If you killed a vampire with a normal weapon then you had to roll a d6 to see if you killed it. A vampire would add their essence to their strength. Nosferatu were even more deadly since all of them are hermetic mages, and can add up to double their essence to their stats.
Only ghouls have always been dual natured.
Took me so long to comment because I wanted to check my books for certain.
Posted by: Platinum Jul 8 2011, 02:50 AM
- Initiate and get masking.
- Find someone who is authorized to go through the ward and study them for an extended time so you can mimic their signature.
- Mask the authorized user's signature and walk through. The ward makes a test to pierce your masking with a threshhold of your initiate grade?
Is this correct?
I can't find anywhere that says masking is what you use, I have seen older editions say to use dispelling to attune yourself to the ward.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 8 2011, 11:34 AM
It's not masking in this case. It's flexible signature.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 01:24 PM
Actually, it is Masking...
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 02:20 PM
Only ghouls have always been dual natured.
Took me so long to comment because I wanted to check my books for certain.
LOL, Eimi beat you to it 7 days ago
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 02:53 PM
Sure, here you go...
Only magicians with the Masking metamagic technique (p. 190, SR4) or spirits with the Aura Masking power (p. 98) may attempt to synchronize their aura with a ward in such a way. In order to synchronize one's aura so it mimics a ward’s creator, the synchronizing magician or spirit must be able to see the creator's aura to use as a reference. One way to do this is to track the astral link present between a ward and its creator (see Astral Tracking, p. 185, SR4). Then an Opposed Test is made between the initiate's Intuition + Magic + initiate grade and the ward's Force x 2. If the intruding magician succeeds, the ward no longer inhibits them. If the ward wins, it continues to inhibit the intruding magician, but does not alert its creator until the intruding magician tries to force his way through by another method.
If tracking the ward's creator through the astral plane isn't an option (the creator is behind another barrier, the intruding magician doesn't want to risk being spotted, etc.), the intruding magician can instead use a material, sympathetic, or symbolic link for the synchronization process (see Material Links, p. 28). Any dice pool penalties incurred by using those links in ritual sorcery also penalize the Opposed Test for fooling the ward.
As for the foloowing comment:
Flexible Signature DOES NOT allow synchronization through a ward. See highlighted rules above.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 8 2011, 02:54 PM
You may use masking to pretend your aura is of another kind of creature, to pretend your magic is higher or lower or look mundane.
Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 02:58 PM
Flexible Signature allows you to copy someone else's aura, I think that would be the way to bypass a ward, doesn't it?
Flexible Signature does not allow bypassing a Ward, That is Masking, See Above quote, or refer to Street Magic, page 124....
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 8 2011, 04:18 PM
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 06:20 PM
If your signature matches that of the mage who made the ward, seems like the ward would want to let you through.
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 06:22 PM
Flexible Signature changes your signature, not your aura. It might let you cast a spell through the ward, but it would not let you walk through the ward.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 06:23 PM
Cannot be said enough... ^^^
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 8 2011, 06:26 PM
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 06:44 PM
I guess convincing a barrier that you are not magically active would be easier than convincing it you are the one who made it...
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 06:47 PM
A shapeshifter for instance may use masking to look like a dual-natured human or to look like a mundane critter of the same species.
Page reference, please. The entry on Masking (SR4A, page 198) says, in part:
There is no mention anywhere of being able to hide the fact that you're dual-natured. You can change what your astral form looks like, but you cannot change the fact that you have an astral form. Ergo, no matter what the vampire makes himself look like, he is still vulnerable to mana spells cast from astral space.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 8 2011, 06:49 PM
That's what I get for saying stuff witout cheking before...
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 8 2011, 06:50 PM
The thing is masking does not change your dual natured or astral status. Observers simply do not perceive your status. It's just like running into a wall in the dark or while you are invisible, it will hurt the same.
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 06:57 PM
There is no mention anywhere of being able to hide the fact that you're dual-natured. You can change what your astral form looks like, but you cannot change the fact that you have an astral form. Ergo, no matter what the vampire makes himself look like, he is still vulnerable to mana spells cast from astral space.
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.
Mundane targets cannot be targeted with manabased spells from an astrally projecting magician.
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 07:02 PM
OK, so the vampire looks like a dual-natured mundane. He's still dual-natured, he's still present on the astral plane.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 8 2011, 07:05 PM
The target is not mundane, it only looks mundane. It is an interesting question what happens if you only see the (fake) aura, but know that in the same place must be an astral form. It could work since the other way around works. Astrally perceiving characters (who are not dual-natured critters) can target mundane targets even though they cannot perceive their mundane form.
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 09:43 PM
The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.
Posted by: Rubic Jul 8 2011, 09:52 PM
The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.
A projecting mage is to an astral target what a physically present mage is to a physical target. It doesn't matter that the vampire APPEARS mundane in the astral, if the mage knows it has to be that mundane-looking astral form.
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 10:30 PM
The same is not true for a projecting mage. If he wants to hit a target, he HAS to SEE a valid target, and a mundane is not a valid target.
There is nothing... let me reiterate, NOTHING in the description of Masking that indicates it can hide the presence of an astral form. You can make your astral form look like something else, but you cannot hide it or suppress it using Masking. A projecting mage who sees an apparently un-Awakened astral form is going to become very suspicious, since you can't have an astral form if you're mundane. For a dual-natured being, Masking might actually make you more conspicuous, not less.
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 8 2011, 10:59 PM
Extended Masking, and a mana-based illusion spell, however, can.
You DO need to be able to conceal the spell aura, otherwise your deception will be painfully obvious.
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 11:21 PM
You DO need to be able to conceal the spell aura, otherwise your deception will be painfully obvious.
That's an interesting interpretation. I think I follow your line of reasoning: a mana illusion extends into the astral plane, therefore can disguise an astral form. Please cite a page reference, as nothing I've read implies that.
Posted by: Eimi Jul 9 2011, 09:09 AM
Vampires are not dual-natured.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 9 2011, 09:39 AM
- mana based spells work on the astral plane, or the physical plane, not both at the same time.
- you can create mana based illusions for every sense.
- astral perception is a sense
=> You can create a mana based single(or multi) sense illusion spell that hides what you cast it on.
Now the spell still has an aura. For the uninitiated this makes the spell above pointless. But with Extended Masking you can incorporate a sustained spell into your aura/astral form. Thus you are hidden on the astral plane.
So it is a creative application of the rules we have.
Posted by: Apathy Jul 13 2011, 11:19 PM
You have to be able to see your target for any direct damage spell, even area effect spells (stunball, etc). But you don't have to see the target on indirect spells. To my knowlege there are no mana-based indirect spells in the sourcebooks, but nothing prevents you from creating such a spell.
If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 13 2011, 11:29 PM
If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?
SM 162. Indirect spells are always physical.
create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Indirect Combat spells are treated as ranged attacks, so physical
armor applies.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 13 2011, 11:31 PM
If I did make a 'clusterfuck' spell (mana-based, area effect, indirect damage, no associated elemental effect), how would you handle determining damage? Indirect spells have to get past armor, but mana-based spells normally don't. How would it work?
SM 162. Indirect spells are always physical.
Indirect Combat spells must always be physical, as they
create a damaging physical effect to use against the target.
Indirect Combat spells are treated as ranged attacks, so physical
armor applies.
However, while not actually presented in the book, you can make a powerball spell that is indirect. This will do most of what you want, excepting hit astral entities.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 14 2011, 06:36 AM
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 14 2011, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I know. But it's still a possibility.
Posted by: Seth Jul 15 2011, 09:27 AM
My two-pencem which restates some of the stuff above
IMO Dual Natured is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
Reason one: Wards are cheap and readily available and used all over the place
Masking as a mundane does NOT let you get through a ward. If it did, it would be covered under the same section that details how you can get through a ward with masking. Its clear how masking can help you get through a ward
1: Astral tracking to find the creator (who is often behind the ward) 1 hour per search. If he's behind the ward...good luck and I hope you don't get bored easily
2: Masking roll vs ward
or you can skip phase 1 if you can see the creator.
Your alternatives are to destroy the ward (probably quite easy but will take several IPs probably), or smash through the ward (don't fail or you are unconscious). Both of these automatically alert the creator. Much of shadowrun requires stealth. The moment you hit a ward its hours of work to get through, while the rest of the team have charged ahead.
If you don't think that is a serious disadvantage, then you probably don't agree with my view that dual natured is a disadvantage.
Reason two: the hovering astral mage.
Astral mages are very constrained in that they mostly cannot affect the real world. They can summon (1) spirit, and use bound spirits. But bound spirits are intrinsically limited in their force by the very high drain code. Astral mages can be deployed anywhere in the same city in a matter of seconds, but are mostly used as recon and spirit wranglers.
Once you are dual natured, they can deploy their full suite of (mana) spells upon you, hovering out of reach. You had better hope you have a suitable attack (spells or... nope I think its just spells) or you are toast. They will never be in melee range (they move so much faster than you that its not funny). And they can go and get their friends.
"Hey joe, I've been tasked to deal with a disturbance at location XXX. I've deployed the spirits. But get this: one of them is dual natured. Do you want to round up the lads so that we can get a captive? Its always nice taking part in a turkey shoot or a seal clubbing"
Posted by: Rubic Jul 15 2011, 01:58 PM
IMO Dual Natured is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
Reason one: Wards are cheap and readily available and used all over the place
Masking as a mundane does NOT let you get through a ward. If it did, it would be covered under the same section that details how you can get through a ward with masking. Its clear how masking can help you get through a ward
1: Astral tracking to find the creator (who is often behind the ward) 1 hour per search. If he's behind the ward...good luck and I hope you don't get bored easily
2: Masking roll vs ward
or you can skip phase 1 if you can see the creator.
Your alternatives are to destroy the ward (probably quite easy but will take several IPs probably), or smash through the ward (don't fail or you are unconscious). Both of these automatically alert the creator. Much of shadowrun requires stealth. The moment you hit a ward its hours of work to get through, while the rest of the team have charged ahead.
If you don't think that is a serious disadvantage, then you probably don't agree with my view that dual natured is a disadvantage.
Reason two: the hovering astral mage.
Astral mages are very constrained in that they mostly cannot affect the real world. They can summon (1) spirit, and use bound spirits. But bound spirits are intrinsically limited in their force by the very high drain code. Astral mages can be deployed anywhere in the same city in a matter of seconds, but are mostly used as recon and spirit wranglers.
Once you are dual natured, they can deploy their full suite of (mana) spells upon you, hovering out of reach. You had better hope you have a suitable attack (spells or... nope I think its just spells) or you are toast. They will never be in melee range (they move so much faster than you that its not funny). And they can go and get their friends.
"Hey joe, I've been tasked to deal with a disturbance at location XXX. I've deployed the spirits. But get this: one of them is dual natured. Do you want to round up the lads so that we can get a captive? Its always nice taking part in a turkey shoot or a seal clubbing"
This is a good reason for most ghouls to stay underground. If the mage can't see them, the mage can't snipe them. If the mage wants to attack them, he has to enter the ghoul's turf. If he does, he risks being in melee range. If he's in melee range, he can be attacked by the ghoul. Step 3: Profit. Narrow corridors with low roofs are the equalizer, much as tactics is wont to be.
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