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Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 03:03 AM

I'm in a rush, so I'll keep this short (by the way, this is not a starting character. this is the max):

• 7 Elf
• +1 Metagenetic improvement (AGI)
• +1 Enhanced Attribute (AGI)
• +1 Genetic Optimization (AGI)
• +4 muscle toner
• +1 suprathyroid gland
• 6 longarms
• +1 Aptitude
• +3 adept improved ability (longarms)
• +2 specialization (sniper rifles)
• +2 smartgun system
• +2 home ground
• +1 synch
• +4 tacnet
• 6 edge

Right there we have 42 DP under the right conditions (you need to see the target attack something first, you need to spend edge, etc). If you take 5 consecutive take aim actions (1/2 your skill) then that's 47 DP.

That was for a partially functional character. Here's the real deal. Instead of the muscle toner and suprathyroid gland, get a cybertorso and two customized cyber arms at your normal natural attribute rating, then enhance them to 15 AGI. Using the optional rules for redlining your cyberlimbs in Augmentation, double that to 30 AGI for one use.

You will need 6+ BOD, 6+ WIL, and an autodoc or teammate on standby to pull this off. Allow me to explain, you take stun damage equal to 2X the boost you give to your limb,resisted with BOD , so with the cyber and attributes, you'll have a combined condition monitor of 25 + 6 overflow. Just enough to survive 30 Stun in the worst case.

Anyway, 62 DP with that last touch.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 03:11 AM

What the f*ck are you trying to make?! The last shot from Wanted?!
But, I like the thought exercise. Kudos.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 03:13 AM

*Shakes Head* Why?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 03:16 AM

*mumbles* Damn dragons and their magic. Let's see who's OP now. *mumbles*

Posted by: CanRay Jul 1 2011, 03:17 AM

Because squeezing out the last bit of math to make "The Best At What I Do" is a theme in RPGs for a long time now.

It has it's place, sometimes, however.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 03:23 AM

The most epic thought exercise I've ever seen (and no, don't ask me to find it again) was a D&D character who had 100 in every stat.

EVERY stat. All 6 attributes, armor, flat footed armor, touch armor, fort save, reflex save, will save...every single stat.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 03:26 AM

So help me Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you say Pun-Pun.....

But really, I had most of that with a level 20 Psion who infinite power points. It's doable, just not fun to put into play. The Konami Code is only fun for one-shots, mostly.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 03:27 AM

What is this I don't even.
I though DnD was practically immune to powergaming in comparison to Shadowrun. Were all the stats pretty much the result of abusing a single mechanic?

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 03:29 AM

You must not play much 3.5. One of my favorite characters could run around a European nation in six seconds and when he gets back to his starting point the entire nation bursts into flames.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 1 2011, 03:33 AM

It's a dice pool exercise, like the pornomancer or the ultimate climber, that's all. The problem with them is that they can degenerate into questionable rules interpretations and illogical rules loopholes.

But for more straightforward bonuses, don't forget tacnet bonuses (although you would need either a lot of teammates or a lot of spotter drones to really get a decent boost out of it).

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 03:35 AM

D'oh. Forgot about that! Fixing now.
I am ashamed I didn't think of that. Especially since I'm currently playing a hacker.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 03:56 AM

Note, the Elf is the same metatype for a Pornomancer... You could plan for this from the get-go, but you'll be a bit short on points. Also, you'll have to prioritize between shooting people personally, or convincing others to do it for you. Either way, what fun!?

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 04:02 AM

Oh god. The agony. What will the rest of your party do?

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 1 2011, 04:05 AM

OOoh! you forgot a dice.

Hint: Its related to synch.

You can even get it to pay for itself with a negative quality in augmentation.(though i am away from books, i'm fairly sure its aug, but might be RC)

Posted by: Cain Jul 1 2011, 04:07 AM

Depends on the edition.

in 2e, it was all dependent on your ability score rolls. If you rolled high, you could easily be better off at first level than a higher-level character with lower stats. 3.0/3.5 didn't depend so much on ability scores, but you could combine feats, races, and prestige classes in such a way as to get insane benefits. Pun-Pun the infinite kobold is the worst example of this.

4e's a lot more resistant to breakage. You can still optimize the hell out of a character, but the differences aren't so glaring. Also, it's really difficult to end up with a gimped character in 4e.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 04:29 AM

I'll look, but if I haven't found it by now, I probably never will.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 1 2011, 04:37 AM

I think he's talking about (with a cooperative GM!) getting a permanent infusion, in this case Sideways, with the mysterious cyberware negative quality. Not sure I'd let that stack with Synch, though, since Synch is part of the "mix" of Sideways.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 04:48 AM

I remember those now. 5 hits seems a little bit hard to reach though.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 1 2011, 06:43 AM

Bingo.

The benefit of Sideways is that its a +1 to combat tests, instead of a +1 after observing your opponent that Synch is.

In this case, the Permant Infusion negative quality would let you start with it. It has a heft downside, but, hey, its one way to do it.

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 1 2011, 09:27 AM

No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

Posted by: Blade Jul 1 2011, 09:33 AM

If he's lucky, he can get an edge point more.
And he should also cast Analyze Device on the rifle and have a machine sprite inside.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 01:05 PM

I'm Sorry... I just see absolutely no use in it whatsoever...

Posted by: CanRay Jul 1 2011, 01:10 PM

Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 01:14 PM

Maybe that's the Problem... We do not care about Edge Cases in the least.

Posted by: ggodo Jul 1 2011, 01:30 PM

That's why I keep Longbow around!

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 01:31 PM

No, I don't know how it was done. Pun-Pun, however, isn't limited to 100s.



That spell (combo) got errata'd. Chuck E. Cheese is no longer valid. Footsteps of the Divine can no longer have it's duration enhanced via any means (the cheese comes from the fact that the spell increased the subject's base move speed by 10 feet per round, and can be ended early to give the subject "10 feet" times "rounds remaining" in extra movement for one turn: if you get the spell to last for 4 days that's 57,600 rounds....).



Or in some cases, giving it to a competent player. Iron Claw looks really well balanced. Until you realize that the developers never combined classes and races that were meant for each other. Their sample characters include a rabbit anamist ("barbarian" in D&D terms): the rabbit doesn't have a natural attack (e.g. claws) that get better per the class. Bat wizard: the only flying race paired with the only class that gets flight. Etc.
(Although a friend of mine did create a rather effective elephant rogue...)

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 02:31 PM

As of 4A, I don't think the possession spirits will help. At least not while possessing me.

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 1 2011, 02:34 PM

I thought of the edge earlier yesterday, but forgot about it later on. Thanks.

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 03:42 PM

Considering that Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive, then probably not, unless you have a L6 Technomancer contact just falling all over themselves to keep you supplied with sprites.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 1 2011, 03:43 PM

Attribute impact did not really change between 2 and 3.5.

Prestige classes became awesome, which I suppose reduced the importance of stats... tho many of them are amplified by good stats. Not trolling, just saying... your wrong.

You are absolutely right about 4th edition. It is very resistant to breakage, mostly because they removed most of your ability to customize your character. Sucky way of fixing it, but it works.

With surge you can just barely get metagenetic improvement agility and exception agility, but your Positive Qualities are used up. No points for Lucky if you follow the normal 35BP limit.

For that matter, you cannot have Aptitude, Metagenetic Improvement AND Exceptional Agility, AND Adept. That exceeds the 35 bp limit by 20.

Also, lose the superthyroid and half the muscle toner and you can hit your 15 agility with adept powers with a legal starting character.

Also, you can get one more die with Enhanced Articulation. I am not sure about compatibility, but Reflex Records should give you a bonus skill die too.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 1 2011, 04:10 PM

For bursting, Lucky is better than an extra Agility.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 04:18 PM

Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 1 2011, 04:22 PM

I might note that it DOES, however, affect gymnastics dodging.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 04:23 PM

Gymnastics is not a Combat Skill... Enhanced Articulation adds nothing to actual sharpshooting.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 1 2011, 04:29 PM

I'm just being pedantic for its own sake.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 04:35 PM

Surge is technically on it's own BP limit. You spend the BP on the surge (5, 10, or 15), take that many points in negative qualities and then buy twice that many in positive qualities. Any overage counts towards your regular limit either way, so a 15 BP SuRGE with 20 extra points of SuRGEd Positive Qualities would cover all your positives regardless, and 20 pts of SuRGED flaws on a 5 BP SuRGE would cover 15 BP of your negative qualities limit. (you can check it in Runner's Companion, pg 73, bottom left corner)

[Metagenetic Improvement (20 BP) + Aptitude (10 BP) - 15 BP of negative metagenetic qualities] = only 15 BP SuRGE (positive quality). 20 pts left to play with for positives, and all of your negatives free for choosing.

Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 1 2011, 04:36 PM

Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 1 2011, 04:42 PM

Still wrong. The text states that it applies to Physical skills that are linked to Physical Attributes. Perception is linked to Intuition, which is not a physical attribute.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 1 2011, 04:46 PM

Indeed. Generally, it affects the athletics group as well as palming, infiltration, escape artistry, parachuting, and diving.

I could see that. Likely involves a bit of down-time to get that kind of ability. You won't be Florence Nightengale overnight.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 05:01 PM

I also realized something else that would be potentially game-breaking...

Runner's Companion section on Metagenetic qualities lists rules for picking them up as Gene-tweaking...
Augmentation has a the Genetic Heritage quality at 10 BP that allows you to pick up ANY such gene-tweaking for no additional cost beyond that 10 BP. So, if your GM is a doormat, you could arguably get Metagenetic Improvement AND Genetic Optimizaiton for 10 BP each, totaling as much as Metagenetic Improvment as it's own quality, on its own.

Also, has there been any errata on Augmentation? The description for Genetic Heritage seems to me to indicate picking up the tweak without an essence loss ("... start play with one genetic modification for free"). Without errata, that's a little too open to interpretation (and therefor munchkinism).

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 1 2011, 05:07 PM

There's been a discussion on that quote. The generally accepted meaning is "no nuyen cost." You still pay the essence.

Posted by: Makki Jul 1 2011, 05:18 PM

And where is the Machine Sprite enhancing the smartgun?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 05:30 PM

Nope, it does not add to Perception, because it is not based upon a Physical Stat (Perception is Intuition based)...

EDIT: Ooops, looks like X-Kalibur beat me to it.

Posted by: Mr. Smileys Jul 1 2011, 06:04 PM

What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 06:12 PM

Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.

Posted by: Mr. Smileys Jul 1 2011, 06:19 PM

For killing the tank or Dragon (not Great Dragon) in one shot.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 06:25 PM

It's the difference between the target becoming a corpse, and the target disappearing in a red puff of logic.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 06:26 PM

*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice...

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 06:29 PM

with 45 dice, there are more right places and right times.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 06:49 PM

Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 1 2011, 06:56 PM

You always need moar dakka! 'Nuff Dakka is hitting every point in space with every other point in space at every point in time. Until you can do that, you always need moar dakka!

Posted by: CanRay Jul 1 2011, 07:50 PM

And, after *YOU* have that much Dakka, the next person down the line needs more.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 08:15 PM

SR3, jumping off a tall tower, throwing a grenade and timing it just right so the explosion creates a large burst of water that cushions the fall. Character retired, NPCed, and woke up (Thank you Platinum Docwagon) in a hospital with cards and flowers from the most well known runners in the area. But in my years of SR the only time I needed/wanted that many dice. Sometimes you love exploding dice TN and sometimes you don't. That time I didn't.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 08:25 PM

I See the problem now... You are trying to invade my Black Trenchcoat with your Pink Mohawk... Shame on you...

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 08:34 PM

Well I like to think it was a Mirror Shades game. An attempt at Black Trenchcoat but sometimes a Pink Mohawk is the only way you are walking/limping/crawling away from the situation.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 1 2011, 10:18 PM

Point Taken...

Posted by: Cain Jul 1 2011, 10:31 PM

You want 20+ dice anytime you're facing anything with 20+ dice.

I've never gone that far, but I've personally seen over 30 dice thrown for single tests, usually when facing something really huge. If you're fighting a Force 10 spirit without magic, you pretty much need 30 dice in order to reliably kill it.

Also, you have a higher chance of a critical success. 4 hits over the threshold means you kill a dragon with *style*.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 1 2011, 11:11 PM

Try getting a job then. Either goes really good or really bad.
Bad:
Johnson: "Sorry, you are too well know. I can't use you for this stealth mission. Know of anyone else who can do it?"

Good:
Target: "WHO'S COMING TO GET US?! FRAG THAT....!" -takes a .45 aspirin-
Johnson: "Uh.... I guess.... That counts..... Usual numbered account?"

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 1 2011, 11:23 PM

Well, Availability Tests come to mind, especially if your GM requires a degrading dice pool.



-k

Posted by: Rubic Jul 2 2011, 12:46 AM

Considering the topic, that would then turn us to "Gun as a Skill" ala munckinism

Posted by: CanRay Jul 2 2011, 02:32 AM

"What's your Negotiation skill at?" "Ares Predator IV."

Posted by: Glyph Jul 2 2011, 06:01 AM

Nope. The reflex recorder won't help if you already have improved ability: 3, since the augmented skill cap is 10.

The diagnostics power of a sprite doesn't actually give bonus dice for shooting. It gives a bonus to use the device it is analyzing, and it is being used on the smartlink. So you get a bonus to your test to use your smartlink. Of course, using a smartlink doesn't involve a test, so no discernable effect.

Analyze device works, although that's really using the spell outside of its intended scope. But that's one of the benefits of threads like this - to show cheesy areas that need to be house ruled. Note that while the enhance aim spell doesn't directly give you any dice, it can negate range category penalties without the character needing to take aim. This means that you can use take aim to get bonuses, instead.

Possession spirits don't really work - the Agility is already at the augmented maximum, and the skill is the spirit's own - as compared to 10 + specialization for the character presented, and a spirit wouldn't be able to use things like the smartlink or tacnet. Theoretically, you could get a higher dice pool, but only because spirit Force (and therefore skill) is not capped - although in my opinion, both should be. Item attunement is similar. Theoretically, there is no limit to initiate grade, so a zillionth level initiate would have half a zillion bonus dice. In practice, you would have to be a 12th grade initiate to have +6 dice, and merely break even with the 6 dice you would lose from not being able to use the smartlink or tacnet.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 2 2011, 06:29 AM

You're thinking too small. Never negotiate with less than a Ruger Super Warhawk.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 2 2011, 12:40 PM

This is a popular option at my table.

I have. My group tried taking on a group of gangers and the plan went tits up, one guy got blown away pretty quickly by SMG fire, the others managed to avoid the worst of the attacks. I, however, ended upon the receiving end of 2 wide bursts, 2 narrow bursts, and a couple hits off an ares pred. That was the stuff I hadn't managed to dodge/had the attacker glitch.

I had 6 edge (1-2 of it used already) and a ballistic soak pool of 16. I needed every last one of those dice. We managed to escape with one KIA, 1 with pretty bad physical wounds, one with a good chunk of stun, and then me with 1 stun damage.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 2 2011, 01:14 PM

Ruger is for the pro-negotiator. Pred IV is for the back-up face. Ingram Smartgun X is the negotation tool for the common man.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 2 2011, 05:26 PM

SO, you only sufferred 1 Stun... In the end, You really did not NEED greater than 16 Dice after all. 16 Dice was obviously enough.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 2 2011, 10:49 PM

Sometimes you want to just dominate with style, though.

One of the more memorable moments was my character back in 3rd Ed getting just hosed down with automatic weapons fire by a gang. He had enough armor to just stand there and soak it. (and it wasn't obvious armor, either).

After they finished emptying their clips, he just quirked an eyebrow and said, "Run."

After that soak (and a 20+ die Intimidate test), the gang scattered.



-k

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 2 2011, 11:57 PM

I'm pretty sure(correct me if I'm wrong), he had 16 dice AND the Edge in there for exploding dice, which might count as extra dice.

So adding up extra exploded Edge dice would have taken that above 20.

Might I also give an example of someone simply trying to make a completely blind long range shot. What's the penalty on that? -14? If I HAD to do that i'd certainly want more than 20 dice.

Sure, it doesn't come up often. And hell, I can't think of any of my own characters that actually have a die pool AT 20 let alone above it(I think my one sammie, for his martial arts, rolls 9 Agl+7(Unarmed+Specialty), plus 1 Reflex Recorder and sometimes +1 Kick Attack if he takes it on his own for a total of 18 dice max, and that's his main and highest skil.

All it is is sometimes, we get ideas to do something silly. (And I'm Pink Mohawk through and through, so I support this. Well, with a side of 'Mirror Shades.' I'm not very Black Trenchcoat, nor have I ever been.) So we just play with numbers to see 'hey, what kinda funny thing that I'll probably never ever play can I make today?'

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 3 2011, 12:20 AM

He spent edge. Which I would neither count as "more than 20 dice" nor would I count it as "16 was enough."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 3 2011, 12:58 AM

And still, his 16 Dice (with Edge) were enough... Which is my point. The Need for 20+ Dice is non-existant (because you would STILL have Edge there as well).

No worries, though...

Posted by: Cain Jul 3 2011, 01:26 AM

He rolled 20 dice, and that was enough. That's a bit like saying: "You don't need a skill over 1, since you can get your dice pool big enough without it." It might not be necessary, but it sure helps.

Besides which, once you start encountering high-powered opposition, you start needing those dice. A mundane street sam with a pistol has no chance of hurting a high-force spirit unless he's got a huge dice pool.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 3 2011, 01:49 AM

It's hard to judge how "necessary" Edge is, because it isn't simply four or so extra dice. It either turns your whole dice pool into exploding dice, or lets you re-roll any dice that didn't get a success. The latter, I have found, can significantly increase your level of successes.

Shadowrun can be a very lethal game. Note that the example of Edge putting a dice pool over 20 didn't involve high-Force spirits or a great dragon, but gangers.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 3 2011, 02:43 AM

Gangers can, and will, kill you. Happened to a player in one of our games once. Decided to take his bike through the Barrens. Two low-level grunt mook gangers (with no cyber) tried to stop him. And succeeded. One shotgun blast at near point blank.

The PC survived the encounter, but it nearly killed him outright (and we hadn't even gotten to meet Mr. J yet).

Posted by: Ryu Jul 3 2011, 09:41 AM

At 16 dice, Edge should be used for rerolls unless the char in question has Edge 8:

"Average Add Edge dice": Edge + 1/6 Edge from Rerolls + 1/6 DP from Rerolls = 7/6 Edge + 1/6 DP
"Average Edge Reroll dice": 2/3 DP

Reroll is better as long as 7/6 Edge < 1/2 DP. It is also better because you can wait and see how many hits you get without Edge.

Posted by: Blade Jul 4 2011, 07:16 AM

One of my face has negociated with a grenade:

*Pulls the pin, put the grenade on the table*
"Ok, mister, we've figured you out, and there's something not quite right with all that deal."
"If you've figured me out then you know this isn't much of a threat to me."
(Ok so you TRULY are a Vampire)
"You're right. That's why it's not a regular grenade. It's made of 100% natural components. Probably found in the nearby forests..."
"If it explodes so close to you, you're dead too."
"We're professionals. I've done my research on you, you've done the same on me. I know you're the Vampire, but you know I'm the one who's already dead."

A grenade, some bluff (it was just a regular frag grenade) and a whole lot of composure.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 4 2011, 09:55 AM

"because he's holding a thermal detonator!"

Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 5 2011, 05:30 AM

I left out the reflex recorder for simplicity. It's a skill boost rather than a dice pool boost, same as the adepts improved ability. Thus, I just bought 3 points of that.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 5 2011, 09:23 AM

You can get one more point of agility if you make the character a pixie instead of an elf

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 5 2011, 10:25 AM

Yeah.... But.... It would be a pixie.... So now we either have a very small rifle, an odd smartlink set up, or a pixie wrapped around the grip attempting to grab the trigger and perform a move that looks highly suggestive.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 5 2011, 01:44 PM

If you're going to do a pixie, you drop the sharpshooter bit and pick up Intoxicate (and it's related spell, Fireball).

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 5 2011, 01:46 PM

Or, y'know, Gunnery.

<ducks and runs>





-k

Posted by: Rubic Jul 5 2011, 02:35 PM

just remember NOT to be Navi.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 5 2011, 02:37 PM

You don't have to tell me.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 5 2011, 03:51 PM

Hey! Listen!

Posted by: CanRay Jul 5 2011, 04:24 PM

Where's my hilariously oversized fly swatter?

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 5 2011, 04:26 PM

Adept = 5BP
Surge II = 10BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of limit)
Exceptional Attribute = 20 BP
Aptitude 10 BP

You are now spending 45 BP on positive qualities. Like I said, exceeds raw.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 5 2011, 04:41 PM

Adept = 5BP
Surge III = 15BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of SuRGE)
Exceptional Attribute = 10 BP (overage from SuRGE)

Aptitude picked up after chargen with GM permission leaves this with 5 BP to spare. Granted, the entire build doesn't fit from Chargen, but can be earned later. It's also harder to justify Exceptional Attribute or Metagenetic Improvement, esp. at that cost, after chargen.

Posted by: Ryu Jul 5 2011, 06:24 PM

Now add a spotter. Give me a maxxed sensor test pool for Information-guided indirect fire.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 5 2011, 07:25 PM

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 5 2011, 07:50 PM

You don''t need to though...

Surge II with Metagenic Improvement - Agility (10 BP, The Improvement is Free for BP Purposes)
Adept (5)
Exceptional Attribute (20)

Done, and all for 35 BP of Positive Qualities...

Posted by: Mäx Jul 5 2011, 08:22 PM

Yes, i know that.
Has nothink to do with the point of my post

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 5 2011, 08:24 PM

So, what is your point?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 5 2011, 08:33 PM

This should be pretty clear man

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 5 2011, 08:36 PM

And yet, the original post that included the descriptions of the Qualities did not claim to do so...
Though it did get a bit muddied there for a bit...
No Worries...

Posted by: Rubic Jul 5 2011, 09:47 PM

My mistake. Still, possible to get everything minus Aptitude, and Aptitude is more easy to justify as a post-chargen quality.