Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: JM Hardy Jul 2 2011, 11:50 PM

So, we’ve had PDF publications covering aircraft (Unfriendly Skies), military vehicles (along with other military gear--MilSpecTech) and drones (This Old Drone). I’d say it’s high time we put some watercraft out there. So we did! Out now for your purchasing and perusing pleasure--Deadly Waves (for sale on the http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2808 and http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=92857)! Let’s go to the rundown:

Run on Water

More than two-thirds of the Earth’s surface is covered by water. That means that two-thirds of the Earth is covered in escape routes, infiltration points, and hiding places that people stuck on land constantly overlook. If you want to know how to use all that blue to your advantage, you need to know the boats that are out there, what they can do, and how your competition is putting them to use.

Deadly Waves collects information about thirty different watercraft, from the fast and agile Wave Cutter to the luxurious, self-maintaining Zeppelinwerke Elite Cruiser to the hulking yet surprisingly quick Maersk-Jorgenson Fast Freighter. Runners can use this book to gain all sorts of options for taking to the water, whether they’re planning a quick jaunt or embarking on a long voyage.

Deadly Waves is for use with Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition.



On top of that, we have a new printing of Arsenal--the book with the guns and the armor and the explosions and the hurting--that’s out and about. It has page references updated to Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition, a few typo fixes, and a shiny new cover. Check it out at the http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=arsenal&x=0&y=0 or http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=57423! Note that if you have previously purchased the Arsenal PDF, these changes should be available to you as a free update.

Jason H.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 2 2011, 11:58 PM

There goes the budget.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 3 2011, 12:08 AM

Sold I love that Catalyst keeps tweaking, improving, and correcting its products. Together with Catalyst's apparent responsiveness to the online gaming community, this is a big reason that I love SR4 so much.

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 12:10 AM

So it has no Errata?

Posted by: Bigity Jul 3 2011, 12:27 AM

I was thinking that myself.

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 12:37 AM

On a very quick glance: Seems okay. I'll reread tomorrow when I'm more awake and less alcoholised, but the art looks good, even the few photomanips, and the stats seem somewhat okay. Nice to have a houseboat included.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 3 2011, 12:38 AM

But drunken ranting and raving is the best ranting and raving!

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 12:40 AM

I'm a peaceful drunk. I rant and rave easier, more and better when sober.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 3 2011, 12:43 AM

Fikealox, there's no call for that kind of vicious sarcasm. … Wait, were you serious?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 3 2011, 01:13 AM

There really, really needs to be a sarcasm font.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jul 3 2011, 01:46 AM

Some people are super mellow on alcohol. And then there's tequila. Nothing good ever comes from tequila.

Posted by: Prime Mover Jul 3 2011, 05:05 AM

Bah It's the jägermeister that always got me in trouble. Tequila has always been kind to me.

Posted by: Critias Jul 3 2011, 05:08 AM

I just assume it's the default.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 3 2011, 05:43 AM

yeah, but sometimes you need blunt sarcasm.
To really point things out.
With a sledgehammer.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 3 2011, 09:24 AM

Just keep me away from that vodka, especially if mixed up with sprite or 7-up...

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 3 2011, 09:34 AM

The Battleshop Update Download still gets you the previous version of Arsenal.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 3 2011, 12:48 PM

Didn't read the announcement of the new cover on Facebook?
Due to popular demand, here's the cover on the Arsenal reprint. In the reprint, page references are updated to SR4A, and some other typos were corrected, but there have been no real revisions. It's primarily aimed at people who do not have the book yet--those who have it shouldn't feel compelled to buy another copy. Unless they really want to.

OK, first impression of Deadly Waves: The Obsolescent Trait again, yet another book of outdated stuff nobody is ever going to use - oh wait
A larger scooter, a houseboat...that actually looks like stuff an average runner might be able to use. My group is in LA right now, so it might be a purchase.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 3 2011, 01:48 PM

Heh, can't even figure out why they bothered to print the Obsolescent Trait in to this one, the Suzuki Watersport is the only vehicle that has it and it's pretty meaningless trait in a water scooter so the Watersport not having it wouldn't be much of a difference. Not that the trait in question stopped me from planning to get many drones from this old drone to my rigger builds

Personally i would really recommend it, there are many nice vehicles that a runner can afford(I'm especially thinking about getting either the houseboat or a sailing yacht as a home to some future character build, or maybe even for some older one thats not quite finished) and the bigger thinks are nice as targets.

Posted by: Tycho Jul 3 2011, 02:13 PM

Me too.

Posted by: Bigity Jul 3 2011, 02:45 PM

Then I have to wonder why even bother updating the document if it doesn't include errata. Now work will have to be duplicated, or should we see this as a sign errata isn't on the list of things to do?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 3 2011, 02:54 PM

*A* sign? Oh well.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 3 2011, 03:16 PM

(disclaimer, this is not a Nazi comparison)
Somehow I just had to think of the old https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Titanic_(magazine) issue I came across yesterday, heading: "Horrible Suspicion: Was Hitler an anti-semite?"
Signs that CGL does not do errata have long since become superfluous...


As far as the Obsolescent and similar traits are concerned, it not the Trait itself which ticks me off, but the fact that it has often been accompanied by yet another list of subjectively useless vintage equipment. So if there's useful stuff inside, it's a pleasant surprise.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 3 2011, 03:21 PM

I guess all this ancient gear significantly increases the ability of groups to play SR4 'authentically' in the slummy and backwater regions, which would also be the more lawless ones. *shrug*

Posted by: CanRay Jul 3 2011, 05:01 PM

Old gear also doesn't have the RFID Tag Spamming problem in new products that is a major issue for Shadowrunners.

And with a legitimate reason, too.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 3 2011, 06:06 PM

Still no cargo capacity rules. <sigh>





-k

Posted by: Mäx Jul 3 2011, 06:22 PM

I know usefulness of stuff is very subjective, but IMO losts of that vintage stuff is very good, some being even better then newer stuff.

Also as my last post said, there's exactly one vehicle in this that has Obsolescent Trait.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 3 2011, 06:29 PM

I doubt we'll see it in a PDF Document if we see it at all.

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 09:10 PM

Reading it and prepping a review, but there is one thing I just have to share beforehand:

"They" is the Cartel Courier Submarine. Submarine. As in, ship that travels under water. In an ocean.

WHAT.

So now, Bogotá not only lies in the jungle and has moved out of the Andes somehow, it also is a sea port? Seriously, do your research people. This is dragging down my opinion of what is otherwise the best stuff supplement yet.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 3 2011, 09:21 PM

get more drunk, get a hangover, get cranky, THEN rant and rave ^^

Posted by: Fatum Jul 3 2011, 10:06 PM

Awesome art.
Now, I just wonder how many books will it take Shadowrun to get the name of Krasnoe Sormovo shipyard right, as well as learning to differentiate Komsomolsk (-na-Amure, I presume, is it even Russian yet?) and Nizhny Novgorod...

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 10:53 PM

Okay, review time.

The book is laid out like the previous books of this kind have been - one item a page, like the gearbooks of old, lots of shadowtalk. I like that format. It's also full colour again, which I also support.

The art is very good throughout the book. Kudos to the artists. Also, kudos on the guy who does the photomanips for making photomanips look good, I just now realised the Tiger in Unfriendly Skies probably is one too. The art usually fits the vehicles well, though i'd have prefered a more dashing, pimped design for the Zeppelinwerke yacht. But whatever, it blends together nicely and transports a consistent look and atmosphere, something I missed with, say, Gun Haven. It's a nice mix, art-wise, of coloured old art and new stuff. Especially appreciated the Riverine from a new perspective that yet looks like a Riverine in old art did.

The content also is nice. Lots of familiar names, which is what SR4 so far has lacked, and nearly everything feels relevant. From the house boat (which I will use as a mobile hdeout, it's just too tempting) to the jetski to the yachts and even the freighters and warships, this is stuff runners and related characters have a high chance of getting n contact with. No nuke sats, no highly experimental aerosub carriers straight from a bizarre Ace Combat installation, just bread-and-butter vehicles. The shadowtalk also often offers ideas for using these in a campaign, from the scooters to the high-sea luxury sailing yachts. Well done.

The stats check out too most of the time (issues with the general idea of mega damage aside, which don't belong here). No overly noticeable blunders, but that's probably better left to better rules lawyers than myself. I did wonder, though, if not some vehicles that are said to be out of production for years other than the Watersport should have gotten the obsolescent trait, and have been missing some of the depicted weapons with the Tiburon and Riverine. But after other PDFs, that's relatively small fry.

Bottom line: A fun PDF that will make you want to take your PC to the sea a bit more. Definitly worth the money.

Just, damnit, read up on geography whenever you mention Bogotá, okay?

8/10 points. This is a good book. Keep up that quality.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 3 2011, 10:55 PM

Not gonna argue about a watercraft being a way out of Bogota, but cartel courier isn't a submarine, it's a semi-submersible boat.

I was personally thinking of getting Sendaku Marlin sail boat for that purpose, it's cheaper and has high amenities instead of middle.

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 11:01 PM

Okay, but it's still ill-fitted for mountain passes.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 3 2011, 11:10 PM

Barrel>Cataract. It works as a way OUT . . if you survive . .

Posted by: hermit Jul 3 2011, 11:15 PM

Assuming you find a cateract where it won't simply stick to the ground. Bogota is short on anything like a remotely sufficiently large river anyway.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 3 2011, 11:17 PM

Wouldn't know, never been there.

But I'm thinking some water smuggling might be capable in my neck of the woods. Problem is, if you're detected, it's really hard to get away in a boat when you're stuck in a river.

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jul 4 2011, 02:22 AM

frag you buggers, drop this one out the cargo hatch the day AFTER i break down and get almost all the pdf only stuff. Came into Fed Ex Kinkos to print them up tonight and find that you have another......frag i feel like Eric Cartman.

Posted by: Nebular Jul 4 2011, 05:21 AM

I don't see how you can call the re-release of Arsenal "new". It contains all of the printing errors that were in the original book. Every single item that was fixed in the Sept 2008 errata is missing from this re-release. It's the old book with a new cover and the page references changed from SR4 to SR4A.

Posted by: Gerzel Jul 4 2011, 06:41 AM

No they got the geography right. You'll be using that bucket!

Posted by: Gerzel Jul 4 2011, 06:44 AM

It looks interesting but I'll have to hold off.

My group is currently running in Denver and there just isn't much call for watercraft there.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 07:14 AM

So Arsenal got de-errataed like the new printing of Street Magic?

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 07:19 AM

Looks like.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 07:27 AM

Comparing p.3 of the preview with the changes in the official errata...yes, it is. What the fuck, just when you think CGL is getting things back on track again.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 4 2011, 08:31 AM

*pats german pegasus books with included errata*

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 4 2011, 10:07 AM

Makes me wonder if someone did not leave all their files behind when exiting the company.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 10:07 AM

Just wait for the next step of CGL's great plan: Secret goon squads will seek out each and every owner of a hardcopy containing that which cannot be and erase it - as well as any witnesses.
To correct is to doubt the forseen fate
Doubt is the open gate through which slips the most fatal of enemies
Ignorance is strength, Brothers!

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 4 2011, 11:00 AM

Wait . . this means they did not take their corrected version but an even older version?
Their very first printing? And wrapped out new german cover around the Arsenal?

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 11:30 AM

This.
In one fell swoop, all blasphemous aberrations were cleansed.

(well, the page references obviously were updated...)

Posted by: Nebular Jul 4 2011, 01:05 PM

Yeah, this just seems incredibly stupid. If you put the time, effor, and money into "fixing the typos" (all of the typos from the errata are completely missed), changing page numbers, cover art, getting the printer to do a new run with what is effectively a completely different book, etc., why would you not take the little bit of extra time to incorporate the errata? It's only 2.5 pages of rather simple changes. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a new printing of a book to contain the errata that was released more than 2.5 freaking years ago. If you're not going to, why bother?!

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 02:37 PM

Perhaps they wanted to avoid us accusing them of releasing Errata only in a new, printed edition. That's the only somewhat plausible reason I can think of.

The question remains, of course, whether they will release the Errata. I guess not, but I can't even think of a reason for that.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 02:49 PM

Uhmm, the second printing did already contain the old errata...

Posted by: Nebular Jul 4 2011, 02:55 PM

But isn't that one of the reasons you do a new printing run (besides to just replenish your stock and get more copies out into the market)? This is what they did with the old SR4 rule books if I recall. Each new printing incorporated the errata from previous ones. Yeah, it's not exactly great for people like us who have the original printed copy, but it seems silly that someone picking it up for the first time needs to go and look at errata that has been out for 2.5 years for a newly printed book they just picked up. Those who had the old book as a PDF are getting the new printing through their accounts on BattleCorps, so why not apply it? They'd at least be able to take advantage of it, and it would give those with the old print copy some incentive to drop the money on the new PDF version.


I'd love to see the revised errata for it, and for books that have been out for 2+ years with no errata that really need it. The FAQ is in dire need of updating as well. But if they've been neglected this long, I'm doubting they'll suddenly surface at this point.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 4 2011, 03:00 PM

Well there has been a flurry of new releases (both physical and digital), and the permanent CGL staff is likely not large, so it could be a issue of limited manpower and hours.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 05:29 PM

There has been no errata for over two years, long before the recent bunch of releases or the great freelancer exodus...

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 05:30 PM

And they had the time to go over the book for typos. This is intentional, though other than the above mentioned reason, I can't think of anything for this to male sense.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 4 2011, 05:55 PM

Wait . . the first SR4 Products . . Are those the WizKids/FanPro Versions again?

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 4 2011, 06:04 PM

And how many of the errata-worthy products where in the works or near to getting a second printing before then?

Then again, i think the only guy at CGL at the time that "understood" digital benefits to publishing was Jury.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 06:06 PM

Sadly I'll have to agree. Nobody can keep a straight face claiming that the second consecutive re-release (after SM) got de-errataed due to an oversight, it simply is a brazen-faced "fuck you" to new buyers and existing fans alike. I have the German version in DTF and keep the old PDF, but such a statement simply ticks me off.
This mentality of knowingly releasing a crap product and hoping some poor idiots will buy it is exactly what lead to the disaster which was War!, so CGL should know better. Actually, until this morning I was quite positive they did, because the new products showed things were going back on track again (let's ignore Parazoology ). And now THIS *shakes head*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 4 2011, 06:20 PM

And yet, that is exactly how 90% of businesses work. Just look at the majority of Computer programs that are released, knowingly bugged and less than perfect. Or the vast majority of products that just do not last compared to what was being made 50 years ago. It is a business model that has been proven to work, and the vast majority of businesses follow it...

Not that I applaud it, mind you. It does suck. But that is how it is these days. Very Few businesses put out quality product, and then stand by it.

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 06:26 PM

Well, one other thnk I can think of is a total fail of management (Hardy). As in, he takes his Arsenal file (unerrata'd) and hands it to someone to "correct typos on this list and the cover", not even thinking of the fact that that way he's actually de-errata'ing a book (either because he does not care, or because he is too disorganised).

Not that that makes this any better.

Depends on where the company is located. Export oriented countries that aren't able to unercut China's prices cannot afford this. Pegasus and CGL are an excellent case study in different business mentalities for that reason (not that Pegasus is an exporter, it's more of a general mentality).

Posted by: Sengir Jul 4 2011, 06:36 PM

...and subsequently gets patched, often at the day of the release. Hence the German pseudo-anglicism (at least I've never heard a native speaker use it) "bananaware" - ripens at the customer's.
CGL, however, sells green bananas which never ripen and patches those which did ripen so they turn green again.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Jul 4 2011, 07:22 PM

More discussion of boats, less discussion of corporate philosophy, please.

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 07:27 PM

We're a lot more on topic than you are.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 4 2011, 07:36 PM

Or just hands on the list of thinks to correct to someome who takes the Arsenal file from their hard drive without realizing that it's not the correct Arsenal file.

Posted by: hermit Jul 4 2011, 07:55 PM

Or that. Either way, it speaks volumes on the amount of quality control this book went through, sadly.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 4 2011, 08:26 PM

If it came with included English translation I'd buy it. Although I shouldn't HAVE TO to get errata.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 4 2011, 08:53 PM

Well for arsenal errata you can just go to the official site and download it

Posted by: Sengir Jul 5 2011, 12:16 PM

Guys, this is the SECOND book where this happens, after the new Street Magic. De-errataing one book is accidental, it's the sort of thing which happens because nobody thinks to check such an obvious thing. But no member of the Hominoidea blunders twice in such a stupid way.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 5 2011, 12:21 PM

Has CGL ever explained why they do(don't) do errata in this strange way?

Posted by: Bigity Jul 5 2011, 12:28 PM

It doesn't make money, IIRC. Which they had to have after recent...events.

Posted by: hermit Jul 5 2011, 12:34 PM

Point taken.

This makes it even more bizarre. Sloppyness is one thing, but intentionally damaging your product is a whole new level.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 5 2011, 12:48 PM

Exactly

Something else I just thought of, what effect does this have on Missions? One would assume the most recent printing supersedes previous errata, so "we don't know no errata" is the official RAW now?

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 5 2011, 12:49 PM

If that's the reason, I hope they realise it's an error. It would cost very little to accomplish, and I can't be the only person who'd happily pay for fixed up pdf versions of books that I already own. Plus, they'd be keeping their customers happy, which is usually a good move for a business. I've already ditched one RPG company (guess which one) for stubbornly and sullenly refusing to support and rectify their products.

Actually, I love errata so much that I'd happily pay a subscription fee if CGL would employ someone to lurk on the SR forums and release monthly compilations of well-reasoned official determinations on rules issues.

[edit: I just had a thought. I don't know much about the corporate history of the SR line, but maybe CGL somehow doesn't actually own the errata? So maybe they can provide it free on the website, but can't charge for it.]

Haha, a bit of both I did buy and enjoy Deadly Waves.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 5 2011, 04:21 PM

*Cocks pintel-mounted .50-Cal on my Houseboat* I'm on a boat!

Actually, I finally got it, so I'll give a read and my own 0.02 myself in a bit, when I have time to go through it.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 5 2011, 05:52 PM

Okay, read the book. What can I say - I like it, for what it's worth - it gives some ideas on water-based runs, but I just don't see many people using them.

Now, on to criticism this forum is so well-known for!
The shadowtalker RL interaction mentioned here and there seems really forced. They are what, half a hundred people in the big wide world, and yet they meet each other regularly? Right, they're professionals in a field with a limited number of highly qualified workers, but still. Would make more sense if such encounters were mentioned more often in other books...
Some shadowtalk is weird or seems a bit out of character, like Slamm-O! teaching pirates their craft, or Dr.Spin commenting "Wish I had thought of it" on an advertisement slogan pushing the repair drones as something “every safe boat cannot do without”. Seriously?
Then, there are just bits that are plainly wrong or stupid, like a shadowtalker mentioning that using a loud civilian vehicle for distraction only works in trids or urban brawl. Urban brawl? With civilian vehicles on the field (or rather, brawlers using them for any reason)? Hmmm? Then, the book mentions smuggler Tiburons in the Mediterranean, which everyone takes for theirs, and that lets them slip by. Uh, is the ancient artifact called "friend-foe systems" forgotten in Shadowrun? Doesn't seem so, minding that you can install one on a gun...

Posted by: hermit Jul 5 2011, 05:59 PM

I'll buy one of my characters the house boat. And FWIW, since I have a half-done Venice setting I occasionally use, many of the vehicles in the PDF are fairly useful to me.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 5 2011, 06:00 PM

We're in Kingston right now, doing some smuggling/piracy stuff. Angry free water spirits. Good times.

Posted by: Critias Jul 5 2011, 06:07 PM

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this part. I'm on my wife's laptop so I don't have my Deadly Waves handy right this second, but what exactly is the complaint with this post, and/or what are you trying to say about Urban Brawl (if you don't mind me asking)?

Posted by: Fatum Jul 5 2011, 06:13 PM

Okay, I'm glad to hear at least something from the book will be used, although personally I'd be careful about using something that's stated to be barely afloat and barely mobile as my base...

Uh, have you read the rules of Urban Brawl (say, in Killing Glee)? Even the use of the outrider's bike is strictly limited; using civilian vehicles, even if there are some left on the field for some reason, is right out.

Posted by: hermit Jul 5 2011, 06:28 PM

It's more like a hideout. And the game's in London, so I'll not take it onto open water. I've actually been fiddling with other boats before to path a houseboat together, but wasn't quite satisfied with the results before.

However, rules how to integrate this into a lifestyle would have been nice - say, as in "the houseboat counts as a permanent middle commodities (3 LP) in a lifestyle". That would at least make sense, going by the numbers.

Posted by: Critias Jul 5 2011, 07:29 PM

Killing Glare, and yes, I have. In fact, I just got done writing an update for Urban Brawl into a CMP adventure, and communicated pretty heavily with the German team about their Blut & Spiele, so I feel pretty comfortable with the game. What was confusing me was your post made it sound like Urban Brawlers never had loud civilian vehicles on the field, when in fact they've got (normally) an armor-plated, up-engined, Harley roaring around on pretty much every single play of the game. The only "limitation" on what the Outrider can do is that they can't carry the ball; in terms of using it as what you might call a "distraction," then (albeit a lethal one), I don't see what the problem with the comment is -- at least as far as Urban Brawl is concerned.

While it's true that the Outrider's bike is still pretty souped up and modified, it's still at heart what I'd consider a "loud civilian vehicle," for sure.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 5 2011, 09:27 PM

Well, it has Amenities...


Yeah, Glare, right. And I even rechecked, heh.

Which I wouldn't call a civilian vehicle, minding that it's purpose-built for the game.

There are also limitations on who and when can and can't ride it along with the outrider.

The problem, as I said, is that the bike is not a civilian vehicle, not any more than the brawlers themselves during the game are civilians. And since using even that is limited, using what you think first of when you read about civilian vehicles - cars or bikes left in the game zone, - is right out of the question, as a distraction or otherwise.

Posted by: Bull Jul 5 2011, 09:31 PM

Makes my life more difficult, that's for sure.

The only "good" thing about the reversion is that it means the Gauss Rifle doesn't have that fucking retarded -1/2 Armor, with -6AP stacked on top of it. Gah. I loath and detest "- 1/2 Armor". Stupidest rule in the game. Because it means that something that can slice through 10 points of vehicle armor can only cut through 1 point of my fashionable 2 Impact Leather Armor? Stupid wonky piece of crap rule.

Anyway, standing rule is that the most recent version of the rules, FAQ, and Errata apply. With newer printed versions superceding earlier versions. And yeah, like I said, this makes my life considerably more difficult.

Bull

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 5 2011, 09:32 PM

using them as IED's however, should be just fine . . if you can rig something up to make them blow where they stand . .
oh, and using them as thrown weapons or clubs should work too, for trolls and other monsters.

Poor old Man ^^

Posted by: Critias Jul 5 2011, 09:36 PM

Not always. Recently we've introduced the Harley Brawler that tends to be specialized towards ass-kicking in the Brawl Zone, but traditionally it could've been any old heavy motorcycle, none of which were specialized security or military vehicles. They're still not exactly rolling around in APCs or something, either way, though. To me, a motorcycle's a civilian vehicle at heart.


Uhh, not really. It's pretty much "not the ball, or a dude carrying the ball," and that's really about it.


Right, well, anyways. *shrugs* I won't say the Shadowtalk comment is tremendous or anything, but it seems like we just disagree on the precise nature of the Outrider and his bike, which (in my opinion) isn't worth quibbling about any further, even for someplace as generally pedantic as the internet. Mostly I was just asking for a little clarity concerning your particular Urban Brawl question (since UB's always been awesome, in my head), and that's accomplished.

So, anyways. Sorry for the tangent.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 5 2011, 09:40 PM

Haha, ok, right. That surely makes for a "loud vehicle" alright


Well, Brawler is statted up in Killing Glare. Plus there are BMW Mjöllnir and similar models in Arsenal 2070, built purposely for combat biking - so I doubt there's any shortage of specialized bike models, really.

Right, for some reason I thought Heavies couldn't.

Yeah, that particular bit is minor, of course. I was just mentioning it to explain why I feel the shadowtalk in the book as a whole is somewhat substandard.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 6 2011, 12:12 AM

OK, first read through, some interesting things certainly, but the Shadowtalk seems very forced indeed, and full of "That was you?" comments. Which seems odd for a small group of very international ranging people who probably rarely ever are near each other (Except for the folks in Seattle, of course! Home of the Shadowrunner!).

Other than that (And, yes, the "Bogota On The Ocean" bit) it's worth the purchase price in my mind. Art was decent and, well, looked like boats (Better than the firearms did in Gun Heaven!). Some interesting choices of Civilian and possible Shadowrunner craft as well. I have a few ideas of what to do with a lot of them.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 6 2011, 01:04 AM

Now I can have my summer house (house boat) and my winter house (zepplin). Things are moving up for my character.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 6 2011, 02:12 AM

Where's your Spring and Fall houses? Ford-Canada Bisons?

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 6 2011, 03:23 AM

Tractor-trailer on the grid with a great pilot program. Always on the move with the jammer on.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 6 2011, 04:04 AM

I don't know i read pretty much all of those as "oh, i heard about that one" and not "oh it was you on the other side of that insident".
The one that was of the latter type didn't look that forced to me atleast.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 6 2011, 06:24 AM

Again - half a hundred people of the billions in the world. Ok, half a hundred people of the tens of thousands in the profession.
The chances of them meeting each other is even less than us meeting each other.

But as I said, I'd be fine with that if such encounters would have been gotten any mention in the other books other than cursory.

Posted by: Critias Jul 6 2011, 07:18 AM

From my own read-throughs, I only recall one instance of "that was you?" when two Jackpointers directly crossed paths. The other times it was just folks having heard through the grapevine about jobs another Jackpointer pulled. That doesn't seem unlikely to me, since we're supposed to be dealing with the best and most well-connected Shadowrunners; traveling in the right circles, getting semi-legit work as advisers from time to time, only pulling the most top-end jobs, etc, etc? I can see it.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 6 2011, 08:21 AM

Yeah, hearing of each other is perfectly believable - but it's by far not what we have in Deadly Waves.
Besides, Mika and Mafan are said to be rivals (those two, right? Away from books), so I believe at least those two meet each other at least indirectly from time to time.

Posted by: Critias Jul 6 2011, 08:50 AM

Uhh, yeah it is. Hearing of each other is what we have in Deadly Waves. Unless I'm misremembering, there's only one instance of a pair of Jackpointers that directly crossed paths (Red Anya and one of the magic-user dudes, who sank her ship with a water spirit, IIRC). The other handful of Shadowtalk posts were "Oh, so that was you, that one time, that I heard about!" and "I remember hearing about that explosion, you killed some cops," and that sort of thing.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 6 2011, 01:52 PM

Damage and armor have always been a quite abstract system (and scale poorly to anything larger than an up-armored Steel Lynx), so just don't think too much about it
Although as long as it's coupled with a solid base AP, I think the "-half" works just fine...



Well, good luck trying to make CGL release (or accept previously released) errata. And that's not sarcasm, I'd rather have no reason to bitch about their errata policy anymore.

Posted by: hermit Jul 6 2011, 02:33 PM

Maybe something like "-6 or -1/2 Armour, whichever is higher" could apply? That way it would have a solid base punch and do as well as intended against high-armour vehicles (or trolls).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 01:35 AM

All you need do now is combine them into a single vehicle...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 01:49 AM

Easy enough, that's one mod.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 02:26 AM

Indeed... Got me one in the game we are playing in Hong Kong... Of course, the character is mostly retired for now...

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 7 2011, 04:01 AM

But one vehicle equals one target. Which is reason 216 the first home was the 18 wheeler with a rating 6 pilot, fuzzy logic, and luxury fixin's on the grid. Always on the move. "Where do you live?" "The loop....."

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 7 2011, 11:18 AM

Heh, living in a 18 wheeler. Straight out of bubblegum crisis that one.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 7 2011, 11:38 AM

Or Knight-Rider. Even if that one had a few less wheels.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 04:41 PM

Now I want a roaming shadow-garage in the back of a semi. Drive in, get your vehicle repaired, maybe a new quick-dry paintjob, and drive out again...

Posted by: hermit Jul 7 2011, 05:33 PM

Haha, yeah. My rigger had that once. Then some asshole with a Great Dagon came along. -.-

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 7 2011, 05:38 PM

My Dwarf Rigger had a Troll size modified Bison with Dwarf Size Controls rolling around on auto-Pilot with a dwarf size modified motocross bike in the back as a means of quick escape.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 05:44 PM

Now I'm reminded of the ultimate in insane vehicles and escape plans, from my guilty pleasure of reading John Ringo.

The SHIVA tanks are so large that... I think it was a M2 Bradley IFV was the escape vehicle. Might have been a M1 Abrams, however. That was the ESCAPE PLAN.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 7 2011, 05:58 PM

Remember when Argent had a Devilrat Airdropped as his Get-Away-Vehicle?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 06:01 PM

Yeah, the hard part was getting a distraction large enough that he could do that.

Crowning moment of awesome, however.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 7 2011, 07:31 PM

What I love about this board. I keep finding new and interesting ways to spend my nuyen on business. My runner now rents guns, is a landlord, has a chain of noodle stands, and will soon have the entrepreneurship of "Fix On The Fly Auto Repair"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:09 PM

Totally Filled with Awesome...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 7 2011, 09:16 PM

No, actually it was filled with guns, but that was the direct result ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 09:45 PM

Heh... Just finished reading that, last week, for the 5th or so time... Great Story...

Posted by: warrior_allanon Jul 7 2011, 10:45 PM

it was the M1 i believe, with the turret removed. I am currently re-reading the series so i will let you know when i reach that point, however i'm doing the series in storyline sequence so i have to get through "Watch on the Rhine" and "Yellow Eyes" first.

Posted by: DMiller Jul 7 2011, 11:03 PM

How's this?

-D

Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 01:13 AM

I want co-ownership, at least in the name.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 8 2011, 01:22 AM

I'll see if I can convince my GM to let me use Perfect Roommate on a business. Really though, this makes me think of Blade Trinity. Jump into the semi a man on foot. Fly out Detroit muscle. OH! There is another idea. Buy On The Fly! Get the rig that transports cars.... Where is my car supplement, guys? I need cheap dune-buggies, HA!

Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 01:32 AM

MPUV with Off-Road Tires, done. Dune Buggy!

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 8 2011, 08:38 AM

Don't dune buggies fly? *runs for his life*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 03:30 PM

Just Horrible, Stahlseele, I 'd keep running if I was you...

Posted by: Fatum Jul 8 2011, 04:46 PM

Isn't the ATV in Arsenal pretty much a dune buggy anyway?

Posted by: Critias Jul 8 2011, 04:49 PM

There's a couple in Arsenal that work well for dune buggies, yeah.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 8 2011, 08:47 PM

Now just need a mod that lowers the price. Somewhat like the seen from The Italian Job, "What are those?" "Spare parts. You don't need 'em."

Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 09:14 PM

There's adjustments that can be had to make them cheaper. Knock-Offs, Used, and so on. (Street Costs, SR4A, Page 312.).

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 8 2011, 11:04 PM

Ah, forgot. Thanks

Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 11:30 PM

My group got their hands on a knock-off crawler drone when they needed to hack through security of Lone Star and did so through the car's system as a backdoor, with the hacker cuffed and in the back seat of the car. Of course, the hard part was distracting the officers without knocking them out or killing them, as the Biomonitors in their armour would have sent a message to the car to disconnect from the network. That was less budget as it was speed of availability.

They had the bright idea to hire the Halloweeners to do it. Yeah, it didn't end well. IIRC, the Hacker in the game went through dumpshock three or four times in that game... "Damn, this is nasty! I need medical attention!"

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 17 2011, 06:32 AM

Several of the ships (pg 22 to 27) mention structure instead of body. Where in 4th is this mentioned? In 3rd I remember hull, is this the same? If so how is it used in 4th?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 17 2011, 07:52 AM

Page 171 of WAR.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 17 2011, 07:59 AM

Ah, that explains why I missed it. Thanks