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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ 320 BP and stuck in the barrens
Posted by: The_Dood Jul 3 2011, 05:52 AM
I've got a bunch of SR-verse illiterate players interested in playing. I want to start them out in the barrens slowly introducing them to the greater SR world. However, I don't want the PCs starting out as competent runners but rather I want them to grow into the role and will restrict them to 320 BP for character generation. So I have 2 questions:
Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?
Would you find it fun?
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 3 2011, 06:25 AM
If you want to make 'weak' starting characters, for the love of god, make them use something like 500/550/600 Karmagen. (just do yourself a favor and hand out the usual free knowledge/ langauge points under this system, unless you WANT people to make bland characters). Or even Priority gen, with a handful of BP/karma for touchups, customization, and qualities.
May also want to lower the Availability limit, too.
300ish bp will generate a party of functional retards who somehow survived getting to young adult + without knowing stuff they really should, but don't, because they ran out of points.
Like Cooking. Or driving. Or breathing.
I think low power games can be fun. But you have to do it right, because if people are struggling with character creation, then they won't find your game interesting. And that is bad.
Posted by: Critias Jul 3 2011, 06:38 AM
Be aware that a 320 point game means, for instance, just 160 points for Attributes, which is exactly (read: barely) enough to be "average" at every stat. That's...kind of underwhelming.
If that's what you're going for, knock yourself out, I guess. But my concern is that at lower points values, folks feel a need to min/max more, not less, in order to still try and claw together competent-feeling characters. The 80 points you're cutting out by knocking the starting level from 400 to 320 just might be the 80 points folks would spend on stuff that adds depth, character, and versatility. Be prepared. It takes 211 character points just to recreate the "Halloweeners Street Ganger" Grunt from SR4A p. 282, and they're pretty suck-tastic. If you mean for one of those guys to be 2/3 of your characters, you're on the right track, I guess.
I've got no qualms with a gritty street-level game that takes place mostly "off the grid" in the lawless, chaotic, Barrens -- I love the Barrens, personally, and set an awful lot of my own stuff there -- but rather than the premise of the game, I'm concerned with the power level you'd be using.
Posted by: Bushw4cker Jul 3 2011, 07:09 AM
I did a Redmound Barrens Campaign, I let the Characters do 400BP, but restricted their skills and gear. Availability 4 and less, and no combat skills higher then 4. 320 is VERY low for starting out characters. You might as well do a wage slave "Office Space" campaign for 320.
Posted by: Medicineman Jul 3 2011, 07:13 AM
Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?
Would you find it fun?
Nooooh !
Please don't (for the Love of the Gods)
There are 2 Big Misconceptions in Your Post (ImO)
#1 : 400 BP Chars are NOT competent Runners !
These are starting Chars which are slightly more competent than the Average Goon(or Cop or whatever) in the SR World.
Don't be "mislead" by all the Min/MaxedChars You find here .These are made by People that know the Rules very well and can find every Loophole in the Rules.If Your Players are Newbs ,they will only have average Chars with average Attributes.
If You want to "keep Your SR World dirty" just restrict the Accessibility of Gear ('ware,Weapons,spcl Ammo, etc)
#2 Its NO FUN to play a "nerfed Char" ! The SR World is(ImO ) Tough enough for the Chars ,especially in the Barrens.
If their Attributes, Skills (and henceforth the Pools) are to small/low they won't succeed at even the simplest tasks
Its (ImO) a Big Mistake if You restrain beginning Players with only 320 BP
with a Free Dance
Medicineman
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 3 2011, 07:20 AM
Yeah, i was in a game(shortlived though it was), who's entire premise was basically 'a bunch of runners got LUCKY on their first run, and made it big, but they're all rookies.'
I think the character design rules were '425 BP, but 50 of it MUST be spent on money. Yes, even the mage, and the skill cap was reduced by 1: one skill at 5, or two at 4.' Basically a jump in, everybody knows each other, have fun kind of game. It worked out well.
But yeah. Lowering the BP is NOT the way to do a street level game right.
Lowering the availability of items, the highest lifestyle available to limit starting, the skill caps, etc are all good ways to do this.
Making people spend 160 points max on attributes, when there's eight attributes and each point is 10 is NOT the way to do it.
I know I've suggested Karmagen. This is because under karmagen, costs scale as your ratings go up. It makes lowbie characters much more feasable, and tends to create more diverse interesting characters just by virtue of having rating 1 skills be cheap, so people can afford to dabble in things which make sense (like nearly everyone having the Electronics group because they've owned a commlink for most o their lives).
This is a good point and you should take it to heart. Instead, think about the effect on the characters in your game that you WANT(poor? Gritty? broke? Man keeping you down? Unskilled rookies?), and get it through other means.
Posted by: kerbarian Jul 3 2011, 07:32 AM
Lowering the availability of items, the highest lifestyle available to limit starting, the skill caps, etc are all good ways to do this.
I may be involved in a game soon with availability limits and such. I'm curious -- how do you keep magic-based characters from being relatively much stronger when no one can start with fancy 'ware or gear?
Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 3 2011, 07:36 AM
Another factor is that at the karma award rates in the books (if I did my math right and I may not have since I really need to get to sleep. I forget if a Karma = about 2BP or it's the other way around) you're looking at about 40 runs before they get to the standard 400BP level. Since runs often take more than one gaming session to complete we're talking probably about a full year 9-10 months if you go really fast or award more karma than standard.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 3 2011, 08:01 AM
You can't really unless you cap starting magic at somewhere around 3 or 4.
Posted by: Glyph Jul 3 2011, 08:25 AM
That's pretty much what you should do - same for resonance. No point in letting characters only start out with wired: 1 and muscle replacement: 1 if they can get improved reflexes: 3 with magic. It just makes everyone make an awakened character. You have a similar problem with metatypes - sure, they can't get muscle augmentation, but hey, they can still be a troll. And 320 point games, with only 160 points you can spend on Attributes, make metahuman Attribute bonuses that much more tempting.
Honestly, I don't see the point of the whole "start characters out weak and gradually introduce them to the wider SR world" thing. Low-powered games are great for seasoned roleplayers looking for a challenge, or something different. They suck for introducing new players to the game, though. They will be coming into the game expecting to play cyborgs with mohawks and metal arms, fireball-chucking tattooed dwarves, and Neo-like hackers, only to be told that they are a bunch of poor people living in the slums and eating rat cooked over a trashcan fire.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 3 2011, 08:44 AM
Glyph is as they are often prone to be: right. If you want to introduce new players to SR a low powered game isn't the way to do it. ANy mistakes they make in character generation will be that much worse. Instead worry about your theme. First run should be something that is interchangable from something that could be found in a modern day movie like Heat or Ronin (although on smaller scale) with SR trapings. Once they have a feel for that you can start to get into more of the worlds unique flavor.
Posted by: Ryu Jul 3 2011, 08:57 AM
Would you play a 320 BP character who couldn't leave the barrens?
Would you find it fun?
No, not fun for me. I´m currently playing in a low-power 656 karma campaign, my char would have cost more than 400 BP, and it is a challenge to get stuff done. The idea of shaving about 100 BP from that one is terrible. The alternative on offer was 350 BP, and no one used it.
Plus your players will have to grow into the role anyway. If you want low-powered, insist on them playing tweaked archtypes.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 3 2011, 01:10 PM
320 is the right level for 'ROokie RUnners' and a *fantastic* way to play. Better, in many ways, than 400, as every character has tons of growth remaining once you bring everything down to match. Here's what I use from my "320 challenge" from a few years back, which turned into my whole Philadelphia setting.
You may take a single skill at 5 or two at 4, max.
Skill Groups top out at 3 ranks.
Resources cap at 40 points, rather than 50 as normal.
Availability is capped at 8, rather than 12.
Contacts are capped at Level 4 on loyalty or influence.
Pretty much it for hard rules, but a general "Don't be a goober" MetaRule is applied. Trying to tweak things to a silly level just isn't needed. Characters should be good at what they do, sure, but not *crazy* good.
A good rule of thumb is for characters to toss 6-8 dice at their main skill(s), +2 for combat monkies. Tossing 4-6 dice at their backup skills is also keen. For example, the sample Rookie Faceman sports a Charisma of 5, Logic of 3, the Influence Pool at 3, and Leadership of 3. This gives him 8 dice for negotiation, con attempts, and etiquette, six dice for planning or digging the team out of the fire, and 7 dice for shooting a light pistol if pressed, but with his Body of 2, he'd much rather solve things non-painfully. The sample mage has a Magic of 3, Spellcasting 3, and Conjuring 3, letting him whip up Force 3 spirits with ease or cast minor spells, but with a 6 dice pool, he won't overwhelm anyone.
Everyone who starts playing around with it mentally starts going "Bleah! So wussy! How could you do this? Bleah!"
But as more example characters fall in, it starts clicking for people, until things start actually looking cool. If you compare the generic street sam of the 320 world to the standard, there's a *clear* division of power, but you can still have mages, deckers, everything. Heck, just for giggles, I even tossed together a "Vampire Secretary" for someone... just a low-level cog-pusher who was talked into a girl's night out and wound up getting infected. (oops!) Turns out her health plan didn't cover it, either, and the days she missed while recuperating got her fired. Welcome to the shadows! (D'oh!)
If you want, I can even drop off some example characters for you to use.
Posted by: suoq Jul 3 2011, 01:41 PM
At the low end (skill 1&2 and specialization) 1 karma = 1 BP. At the high end, it can take a truckload of Karma to equal a little BP. It encourages a particular flavor of cheese: Get your 4+skills at chargen, round out your character with karma. Rounding out first and capping skills with karma is so cost-ineffective, it's punishing.
Yeah, it seems backwards to me too, but that's the behavior the system encourages.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 3 2011, 02:22 PM
I think I'm with Waakshani on this.. I think it's doable.
320BP means that you can get exactly average attributes, on average. That means you can still be excellent at something, just at a price.
You'll have to fix maximum starting Magic lower, maybe 4, that's enough to be able to use magic but not enough to totally rule with it.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 3 2011, 02:54 PM
Anyway, I think it's a matter of taste and a matter of expectations. The Barrens are one of the typical settings for SR, but with ordinary 400BP CharGen, I think you're really a notch above that.
I mean, you can easily be an exceptionally powerful mage, given how attributes (Magic) of 3 are supposed to be normal. A hacker could certainly spoof his way out. So could a good Face.
On the other side, that might be a setting thing. Why do people live in the Barrens? Because they're not strong enough to carve their way up, or because society is really so fucked-up that even high-potential people just never get a chance to enter civil society?
Maybe it's just really really hard to actually get out of the Barrens. Without a SIN, you're a probationary citizen, and basically the government doesn't want to give out SINs, because SINners are eligible for social security and all that stuff that costs the government money.
So the Barrens are actually filled with a lot of people who're denied social mobility, despite having real talent and potential.
That can be done with far less invasive rules: limits on Lifestyle, forbid the SINner quality, decree that everyone lives in the Barrens. But in those Barrens, they're not absolute rookies. They're just stuck there. Maybe the PCs dream of buying a SIN and a private island to retire to?
Posted by: Teulisch Jul 3 2011, 03:47 PM
for new players, definitely have a few pre-gens built, especially for more difficult archtypes like the hacker. this also gives you the advantage of knowing what you can actually do with that many points. character generation is the most difficult part of starting a new game, and takes the most time. it also helps to offer a karma bonus for players who write a background for their character.
for their low point build, it may be a good idea to give them a 'free' contact or two, such as a fixer or Johnson.
lower availability limits could work for guns, but not necessarily for other gear. lowering availability of programs could cripple a hacker.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 3 2011, 04:05 PM
I'd just all give them the same Fixer as a contact for free. I mean, why make it hard on yourself as a GM to pitch jobs to them?
Posted by: Crazy Ivan Jul 3 2011, 04:23 PM
Personally, I would enjoy a Barrens campaign, then work our way up. Makes us really appreciate our cyberware bonuses as we get by, and then if facing the corps, gives us something to fear.
Posted by: lunchbox311 Jul 3 2011, 05:40 PM
I ran a 300 BP campaign once. My group said it was one of the most fun adventures they ever had. They still have the characters and would love to have it run again sometime.
I had availability capped at 8, which did allow some good stuff, but not a ton.
Yes, there will be more trolls and orcs, the BP bonus is too good to pass up.
Overall it was VERY entertaining. When your main boss fight type encounter is 2 guys with wired 1 an ak-97's you get a feel for how gritty it can get (lots of wounded players and oh crap moments... even if the two guys could not hit the broad side of a barn without the suppressive fire rules.) I played them in very isolated very poor areas of a barrens area. They all had the same fixer to start with and did odd jobs for pittance money or drugs (or food at times.)
Others are correct in that it requires seasoned roleplayers and it also requires people to want to cooperate, otherwise you all die quickly.
Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 3 2011, 05:58 PM
I think it would be great (You should uncap attributes from the /half BP rules though (Maybe one IS pretty clever or well trained. But don't let them take ultimate levels) Limit magic (and maybe edge) down to 3 maximum 4 at start.
Rest in skills (still no ultimate levels)
The one thing you really don't need is money.
Give free contacts for charisma.
I played such a campaign back in 3rd ed. It was totally awesome. I remember breaking into a shipping company to find ANYTHING of worth, so we could pay the gang to let us squatter in an abandoned house - and not beating us up -. All while trying to become "awesome shadowrunners ™", but no fixer would work with us, since we couldn't even appear to meetings in good clothes, acting like pro's.
Good fun.
Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 3 2011, 07:39 PM
I've never really understood the appeal of low-level games, but that could be because I’ve been gaming for about 25 years now and have seen enough of them to last a lifetime. In our games, we run at 1,200 Karmagen. Our reasoning is thus. When you read the SR novels, you tend to deal with the movers and shakers of the world – characters who are involved with major events on a global scale; what they do *matters* to the world at large. Then you look at the official SR free adventures and you’re…the low-level flunkies of a low-level street gang whose job it is to smuggle things across town.
Yeah…
We’ve decided we prefer the former to the latter and to second what others have said here, I think new players will as well. My 0.02¥.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 3 2011, 08:04 PM
It's a matter of taste. Best thing to do: ask your players what they think is fun.
I get the appeal of high-level gaming, and I also get the appeal of the low-end. I really like the feeling of starting out humble, but eventually growing up powerful, taking down people you once couldn't take on.
Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 3 2011, 08:35 PM
I get the appeal of high-level gaming, and I also get the appeal of the low-end. I really like the feeling of starting out humble, but eventually growing up powerful, taking down people you once couldn't take on.
I just think it would be better to start out humble resources wise rather than starting out a near cripple with insufficient stats and skills. I like the ideas earlier in the thread about capping skills at one skill at 5 or two skills at 4, capping magic and resonance at 4 and capping the starting gear at 8 (I think adjusting the restricted gear quality to gear with a rating of 16 would also be in order).
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 3 2011, 08:55 PM
Well, I think it can work with stats above 320BP, but on the other hand I think 400BP is more than you strictly need to be playable.
I think keeping magic, lifestyle and equipment under control is actually the bigger part of it. It's hard to play a convincing Barrens game if half the players go for High lifestyle or 200K in implants.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 3 2011, 10:03 PM
I'll ask this here because i've asked it elsewhere, do people really enjoy the roleplaying of being poor? I havn't been really really dirty poor in a long long time and to be honest even then I wasn't on the scale of something expressed by the SR barrens, but i've been close enough that revisiting it as a leisure activity doesn't appeal to me.
What is the attraction of a barrens game? Is it not consequences? It can't be the crippling poverty.
Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 4 2011, 12:07 AM
What is the attraction of a barrens game? Is it not consequences? It can't be the crippling poverty.
I hear you. I've been pretty darn poor at one time in my life as well, many years ago, and that certainly colors my desire to not revisit it in gameplay. There's no "romantic appeal" to the typical SR cliche - sorry, "background" - of being "born on the streets" and working your way out for me. That concept has beaten to death with a rock in SR and all of my characters have *any* other background but that.
Posted by: suoq Jul 4 2011, 12:19 AM
It's just a setting.
I'm old, so don't expect to get this reference, but my favorite comic was Grimjack. I still have every issue printed. I've introduced my son to them.
The whole point to Grimjack was that he wasn't a hero. He wasn't powerful. He was just an old guy who had survived with his own code of honor, a collection of scars, and friends he had a hard time accepting that he had.
In a way, I don't quite get risking your life on shadowruns when your cash, equipment, and gear can be sold for a couple of years worth of easy living, years you don't expect to see as a shadowrunner. I get trying to work your way out of the barrens, dreaming of maybe becoming a fixer or even a Mr. Johnson someday.
---------------------------------------------------
In retrospect, the difference between being rich and being poor wasn't nearly as big as the difference between being single and being married with children.
----------------------------------------------------
Pt 2: More than the 320, I think it will serve you well to have everyone at the table know how many dice they should expect to roll in their specialties and how many dice in their secondaries. It helps people build characters that work well together.
Posted by: Glyph Jul 4 2011, 12:29 AM
Part of the problem is that the cyberpunk portion of Shadowrun has its roots in dystopian worlds with a noir sensibility. Unfortunately, that can lead to people worrying about making their games "gritty" and making sure that the PCs can never really accomplish anything significant.
When overdone, these elements can be tired and contrived. Part of Shadowrun's appeal to me was that, while it had dystopian elements, things weren't completely hopeless - there were still social activists, still people trying to do the right thing, and so on.
I have enjoyed low-powered street punk games, when the PCs were lean and hungry, and out to break into the big leagues somehow. I would not enjoy a low-powered game where the PCs were pathetic losers, running from ghouls, doing errands for the local gang to keep from getting evicted from their squats, and crap like that.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 4 2011, 04:56 AM
The reason I run with the 320 level is that I run what is, in effect, "CyberNoir" ... in a noir setting, characters are rarely the best in the world and, in truth, are just cogs in a giant machine, fully aware that, at the end of the day, nothing they do matters to mor ethan a handful of people and that they can't really change anything. It's dark in a way that punk echoes, but never reaches.
An old thing about Noir heroes was this, "A true hero is the right person who does the right thing for the right reasons. In noir, one of those is wrong."
This is where you get your rumpled salarymen, your highschool dropouts who got addicted to combat drugs and willingly lopped off parts to get cyber, where cool professionals exist, but can put the fear into you.
Heck, the prototypical CYberpunk story is Neuromancer, where Molly Millions had to buy cutrate wires that left her with chroinc shakes and the lead lied about his headware storage and had to use compression tricks just to try and get by. These aren't the movers and shakers who would lock horns with Lofwyr and smugly beat Damien Knight at a game of chess.
Sometimes, it's nice to have a group that says, "Well, there's four guys at the door. We'll have to think of another way in."
The 320 level does that, giving everyone room to shine, but, at the same time, they get to grow.
At 400, if your Samurai takes Automatics 6 at the start, where does he go from there? Or, worse, someone that takes a 7? They're *done*. There's no training needed, no hunt for mentors, no "Hey, this guy has a secret technique that no one else knows..." You're the top of the heap, as good as anyone can possibly be ... day one, right out of chargen.
I'm not saying 320 is *better*, I'm saying that it's *different* and, with it, the types of story that you can tell are quite different. If you're squeaking by on a low, or even a squatter, lifestyle, trying to make ends meet as a low-end Shadowrunner, when Leloo Dallas falls into your life, the easy thing to do is hand her over and pocket the reward money. The story that unfolds is quite a bit different than if you fly around the world and take up new identities and safehouses.
So, you know ... different strokes for different folks.
Posted by: Critias Jul 4 2011, 05:18 AM
They're legitimate (and flavorful) points you're making, Wak, but none of that is inherent at the 320 level and consistently absent at the 400. It all comes down -- always, regardless of points level or karmagen or anything else -- to how efficiently the characters are made, or how min/maxed the characters are, or however you want to say it. I don't think there's a huge power gap between 320 and 400, except for the fact that players will be (if left to their own devices) more likely to "trim the fat."
They'll still try to make that Street Sam with Automatics 6, they'll just have even crappier dump stats and even lower social skills, in other words, in order to get it. Some will focus on one or two amazing die pools in order to still feel comfortable and competent, and their characters will just be even shallower in order to see their one-trick-pony do his one trick.
Getting a swanky cybernoir feeling out of a campaign has, in my experience, very little to do with the points level. It has quite a bit more to do with the overall GMing style, what aspects of the canon setting you focus on and which you ignore, what optional rules you do (or don't) use, what creation guidelines you offer (not just hard rules and availability limits), and how well the GM and the players are "on the same page" about the type of game that's about to be played.
You can make a hard-boiled private eye at 400 points, that can still feel like (and be) the down-on-his-luck underdog in plenty of fights, that can still be far, far, from a major mover and shaker -- it all just depends on how you spend those points. Likewise, you can make a 320 point silly/stupid killing machine (just look at one recent thread about how ridiculous starting armor can be, and shuffle a few of those ideas in with the recent thread about how ridiculous a marksman die pool can be, and spend 160 points on each, and voila)...
If all the rest of that stuff isn't lined up just right, another 80 points one way or the other isn't going to make the sweet spot "cybernoir" happen, y'know? If one guy is trying to play Deckard and the other one wants to be Major Kusanagi, the starting character points aren't gonna make a lick of difference. It's the social contract between players and GMs that will, in the end, set the tone for a game of Shadowrun; not the character points and creation rules.
Posted by: Medicineman Jul 4 2011, 06:04 AM
At 400, if your Samurai takes Automatics 6 at the start, where does he go from there? Or, worse, someone that takes a 7? They're *done*. There's no training needed, no hunt for mentors, no "Hey, this guy has a secret technique that no one else knows..." You're the top of the heap, as good as anyone can possibly be ... day one, right out of chargen.
I Think that is a double Misunderstanding
First
with 320 BP the Chars have no chance to shine. With an average Attribute of 3 and maybe a Skill of 3 (as a Mainskill) they have a Pool of 6 Dice and won't expect more than two successes wth 6 Dice(without any Modifiers !!)
Second
Its quite possible to Play a Noir & Gritty Campaign with 400 BP if the Players know about the Setting !
Just Tell them: OK we're plaing Noir&Gritty ,please no Chars with a Skill of 6,no Panther Assaultcannon,No Magic 6&Initiate 2 Chars etc,etc
Cooperation with the Players is always better than restraints that gimp a Char !
400 BP are even better suited for the N&G campaign because than they have a Chance to survive the first encounters
with only 320 GP sensible Players will "shy away" from any kind of fight
with a N&G Dance
Medicineman
Posted by: Glyph Jul 4 2011, 06:29 AM
The point that 400 BP doesn't have to discourage weaker characters has been addressed already. Personally, if you go ahead and do a "low-powered" campaign, you are still better off with 400 BP characters. Set caps on Availability, resources, starting skills (lower them by one), and special Attributes such as Magic - but you will have people who can at least have above average Attributes and a decent spread of skills (600 Karma karmagen works even better for this).
I would also argue against 400 BP characters who max out something having nowhere else to go. Being the best in the world in a single skill does not equate to being the best in a single role. So you're the best gunslinger in the world. Are you as good at soaking damage, using other weapons, noticing ambushes, springing your own?
Don't get me wrong, I think being able to start at the hard caps is still a flaw of the system. But the system does a good job of making those last few points disproportionately expensive enough that only the most dedicated will get them. A hyperspecialist is usually not the most optimal build, and there will be lots and lots of ways to laterally improve the character in ways that make them more effective at their main specialty.
Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 4 2011, 09:54 AM
I don't think 320 BP is a good idea for newbs. A more experienced player might have fun with it.
I would impose the previously mentioned caps but leave them with 400 BP for two reasons.
#1 SR is a complicated system, especially things like magic and the Matrix. They're going to make suboptimal choices during character creation. 320 BP will punish them for those mistakes.
#2 If you limit their ability to buy stats, skills, and gear, then they're going to end up spending those points on contacts and a variety of low level skills. And that's great. It creates really well-rounded characters and introduces the players to a wide variety of skills.
If everything goes right, you should end up with an Agility 5 Automatics 4 Street Sam with 20 points in contacts and the Wilderness, Electronics, and Influence Skill group. Which is cool, as long as you remember they're going to be rolling like 4 dice so a success should be success.
Posted by: Nifft Jul 4 2011, 06:34 PM
I built some gang-level pre-gens for a game (which was fun), and I found that 400 BP was still rather tight.
I'd suggest 400 BP but with these limits:
- No magic at character generation, but you can Awaken any time after, buying up Magic and magic-related skills with Karma.
- No cyber or bioware at character generation, but you are free to buy it once play starts.
- No expensive races like Drakes or Shapeshifters.
- Minimum competencies for gang-related skills, like:
- at least 2 ranks of Pistols or the Firearms group
- at least 2 ranks of either Con, Intimidate, or the Influence group
- at least 2 ranks of Unarmed Combat or the Close Combat group
- at least 2 ranks of Infiltration or the Stealth group
You end up with a bunch of dudes who have more aspirations than augmentations. The story is about how they progress towards their ambitions.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 4 2011, 07:43 PM
Should I drop some example characters in here, for how the 320 level can work?
Posted by: Medicineman Jul 4 2011, 07:55 PM
Shure
Why not 
HokaHey
Medicineman
Posted by: Glyph Jul 4 2011, 10:00 PM
You mean like http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14998&hl=Tasha?
You can make nice, decent 320 point characters, true, but those babies were crafted by seasoned players for the most part. Beginning players often have a hard time making a decent character with the default 400 points. I think the other limitations (lower maximum starting skills, Availability, resources, and Magic or Resonance) are what really determines the power level. Giving them 400 points means they can make their weaker characters more well-rounded, at least.
Posted by: The_Dood Jul 4 2011, 11:01 PM
Appreciate the feedback guys and I've incorporated most of it into my character generation outline provided below. This is for a Tech-Noir game where it is all about the average man. I also hope being restricted from taking high levels of Attributes, Skills, Contacts or Gear and having to take 1 negative quality, 320 BP is more than it seems.
Magic or Resonance limited to 3 or less.
Skill cap of four.
Must take at least 1 Negative Quality from the following list:
* Addiction (Moderate or higher)
* Scorched
* Simsense Vertigo
* Spirit Bane
* Uncouth
* Amnesia (10 BP version only)
* Bad Rep
* Big Regret
* Borrowed Time
* In Debt
* Lost Loved One
The Day Job, Restricted Gear, and Trust Fund qualities are not allowed.
Gear Availability capped at 8
Maximum of 25 bp spent on resources.
Contact loyality and Connection rating is limited to 3
Low or lower lifestyle only
Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 4 2011, 11:44 PM
Hm.. looks okayish for me.
But i really wouldn't cap loyality rating of contacts or force a negative quality. (Good that you allow a range, but i like my freedom with my character)
Also i wouldn't cap the attribute on half BP and MIGHT allow magic 4 in some cases.
The one thing you just HAVE to have a look at: Does the character fit, is he able to have survived so far in the barrens?
25 BP ressources is a bit high for my taste though. (Depending on the character of course, some MIGHT need more or less... i am never so rigid with the rules and limitations)
Posted by: The_Dood Jul 5 2011, 12:11 AM
Sorry, I've always used 200 points for attributes and will continue to do so for this campaign. Never realized it was half starting BP pool.
Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 5 2011, 12:42 AM
Well, if that's the campaign you're looking to run hopefully your characters will survive a session or two. I still say "better them than me," though. I just can't help think that with those ability/stat scores it would be a far better career choice to steal cars and sell them to chop-shops than to actually risk being a shadowrunner. I'm not sure I'd expect to survive any violent altercations on a mission, which would make me super risk-averse in such a game, but that's me. Good luck with your new players, hope they like the SR world and stick around.
Posted by: Glyph Jul 5 2011, 03:15 AM
I would add one more suggestion - this looks like a low-powered noir game more than a game of Barrens rats, so I would suggest: DON'T set it in the Barrens. There are lots and lots of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods in Seattle which would fit a noir setting far better. The Barrens are a hellish wasteland that resembles Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, more than a noir setting. You are better off setting it in a decaying area that still has a semblance of infrastructure, where you can have more traditional noir NPCs such as legbreakers, strippers, bookies, pawn shop owners, underworld enforcers, and the occasional crooked Knight Errant officer.
Posted by: Wakshaani Jul 5 2011, 03:23 AM
Whoah! You found the old thread!
I'm impressed!
(I recycled one of them, Lady Promethea, into one of the new examples for people, however. Huh! Didn't know it was still round.)
Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 5 2011, 03:27 AM
Wait. There are non crooked Knight Errant officers?
Posted by: The_Dood Jul 5 2011, 03:32 AM
Any suggestions, I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Posted by: Glyph Jul 5 2011, 04:47 AM
Just going by the Seattle 2072 book, there are large parts Tacoma, Everett, and Auburn that range from working-class poor neighborhoods to slums. What I don't like about the Barrens is that they are so walled off - noir level runners should occasionally have to butt heads with rednecks from Snohomish, or try to blend in in Bellevue, or get invited to a meet in a fancy downtown restaurant by a Johnson that uses the opulent surroundings to attempt to intimidate them.
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