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Posted by: BnF95 Jul 6 2011, 04:09 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/wants-live-forever-scientist-sees-aging-cured-131029279.html how soon will it come around in real life?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 6 2011, 04:12 AM

The major social ramifications of this are massive and only thought about by science-fiction and fantasy authors.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 05:54 AM

And me. I'm a transhumanist with 2x cryonics contracts - Alcor is my primary, Cryonics Institute is my backup, just in case anything happens to Alcor while I'm in the freezer; this makes me paranoid even by the standards of the cryonics community.

But, yes, I plan on living forever in real life. I just may be dead first for a while, but I plan on getting better.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 6 2011, 06:27 AM

So, you hope they will learn to cure death (and cellular degradation) in the future? That seems a little bit too optimistic...

Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 6 2011, 07:36 AM

Also... doesn't the very process of getting frozen destroy a huge percentage of your cells? Something with expanding water forming crystals and destroying your cellwalls? Same as with freezing strawberries... all you get back is tasty mush.

I mean i loved the idea, but unless you are perfectly flash-frozen... no chance. Nah i will be going the digitalization way. But for that we need a way to completely read out minds - which pretty much includes tapping EVERY single damn nerve going to and from my brain and months in a coma.

After that the transfer into a virtual neural network should be childs play *g*.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 07:55 AM

As we say in the cryonics community - "Being frozen is the *second* worst thing that can happen to you." It's a gamble to be sure, but any chance of success is better than a guaranteed chance of permanent death and oblivion if you're burned to ashes or fed to the worms. In general, we follow developments in emerging nanotechnology and biotechnology avidly.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 08:01 AM

The short explanation - during the cooling down process (no one is "flash-frozen"), you're basically having your cells suffused with anti-freeze by being hooked up to an intravenous pumping system; this is standard for modern cryopreservation preparations. Poke around the Alcor website (alcor.org) for further info (they have some excellent pages on that very topic), but so far extensive studies have shown that current cryonic preservation methods are *very* good at preserving cells from ice crystal damage, including brain cells (which are obviously the most important ones). CI (Cryonics Institute) also has a good site to review, if you're curious.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jul 6 2011, 04:20 PM

It does lead to some ethical and legal questions, and to some extent the question is why? At some point either you or everyone else you know will be dead due to accident, crime or war. So what is the point of going on living? Also, the earth is pushing 6 billion+, who gets the treatment? Everyone? Not likely, probably just the rich and famous. Which will eventually lead to class warfare cause there is nowhere for the masses to hope to strive for.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 05:05 PM

I'm just going to leave this here:

http://www.365tomorrows.com/03/21/birthday-boy/

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 06:05 PM

Why? A strange question - to keep on living, to not cease existing, that's why. And I'd rather be still alive even if all my friends were dead (though it should be noted, I've signed one of my friends up as well so far). As to cost, any new profound technological achievements are pricey at first, so naturally the rich will be the first consumers. As time goes on, the price comes down. That said, I do work in the healthcare field, on the financial analysis side of things. HC corporations are the closest thing to SR megacorps I know - they're run by people who apparently really do have calculators where their souls ought to be. The *instant* "leonization" becomes cheaper than the associated costs of increasing health problems with older people, you'll start seeing it mandated into health insurance contracts, on pain of hugely higher premiums if you don't. Trust me on this. Again, if you want to see a SR megacorp *right now*, up close and personal, work for a large healthcare corp.

As for overpopulation, the obvious solution is to legally restrict reproduction if you're having the treatment, but I'm sure that will be a *lovely* social and legal debate - coming soon (within decades) to a country near you, when the initial treatments should be developed, probably prolonging life perhaps twice as long as now (my rough best guess, from what reading I've done). Of course, you're overlooking the biggest pro-death faction - the religious types, who will cheerfully insist on dying regardless of any treatments to the contrary. That's a big population control lever right there, and will probably continue to be a considerable balancing factor, population-wise, for some time.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 06:10 PM

Error.
Loophole found.
Printing report:

What if one has children before going on the treatment?

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 06:31 PM

Yup, that's a problem, all right! Extra credit fun - enforcing the law *after* treatment!

Like I said, a *real fun* social and legal debate coming our way.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 06:53 PM

I'll just drop this in here:
http://www.365tomorrows.com/04/20/retroactive-zpg-at-the-rainforst-cafe/

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 6 2011, 07:02 PM

They just go and shoot the little rascals as part of the package deal.






-k

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 07:17 PM

Bluntly, uninspired tripe and class warfare propaganda. The writer should be spanked.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 07:20 PM

You do realize that they write one story every day yeah? And about half two thirds about 90% of them are dystopian? Class warfare propaganda comes up a lot. In that class warfare is a rather dystopian concept (the upper class gets better treatment, etc. etc.)

Oh, and did you miss the end bit? Where the upper class twat died?

Point was, if you're going to do Retroactive ZPG, the result isn't going to be nice.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 6 2011, 07:28 PM

I, too, plan on going the neural-uploading route, assuming it becomes available (and affordable) in my lifetime. I want a Terminator endoskeleton.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 6 2011, 07:35 PM

Personally, I'd prefer uploading as well. Given the choice between VR and RL, I'll actually take VR. That said, I have to *live* long enough for our technology to advance to that point.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 07:37 PM

I've got one for that too:
http://www.365tomorrows.com/11/21/transit/

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 6 2011, 07:40 PM

Your point being? Anyone can construct worst-case scenarios. It doesn't mean that anything similar to that will actually happen.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 6 2011, 07:45 PM

That there are potential downsides to a digital transition. Such as that your brain can't be digitized (for whatever reason).

Ah, I know another one that might be better (that one I read....two days ago, hence it was still fresh in my mind):
http://www.365tomorrows.com/05/11/retirement/

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 6 2011, 08:23 PM

And an atomic bomb will set the atmosphere of the whole planet on fire...

Everything has potential downsides. The key word there being "potential."

edit: Changed my mind. I want to be a Transformer, preferably Soundwave. His voice is badass.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 6 2011, 11:00 PM

IIRC, there was money being put on if this would happen or not right up until the first test...

You could tell who the Apocalyptists were by how they put their money.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 6 2011, 11:20 PM

Ah, The Living Tax.... What to do when there is no more elbow room because people won't die and are now producing more kids. I wonder if the birth-rate will reach a singularity before technology will.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 7 2011, 12:00 AM

Wars cure population.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 12:01 AM

So does starvation, disease, crime, and colonization.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 02:03 AM

And as we all know, the rich who can afford to live forever, are the ones who are on the front lines.

(And here's a story about immortality: http://www.365tomorrows.com/11/07/immortality/ )

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 7 2011, 02:31 AM

Despite these little trite and uninspired propaganda pieces that you seem so fond of, I'm willing to bet that many (if not most) people will prefer to lead longer, healthier lives when the option is presented to them, regardless of any such ridiculous luddite "cautionary tales" to the contrary. Life extension will be presented in the form of healthcare treatments - don't like, don't get - problem solved.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 02:54 AM

Propaganda?
Really?

They're flash fiction.



I was sharing a speculative piece of fiction relevant to the discussion. Namely because:

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 02:58 AM

Heh...

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 7 2011, 03:01 AM

They may be "relevant" fiction pieces, but you are (please correct me if I'm wrong), using them as arguments to support your anti-life-extension stance, and I'm saying that I find their value as such to be anything but sound and reasoned.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 03:12 AM

I am merely presenting what speculative fiction exists around the topic.

I personally have no qualms with wanting to extend life. I'm merely saying that you should be careful what you wish for.

Do you want to die every year so that you can stay young and never learn from the experience?
Do you want to have to fight and murder in order to maintain your living conditions because "everyone else is immortal too, but we keep having kids"?
Do you want to digitize yourself and end up in a tyrannical society ruled by those still Outside the machine (and find yourself one day whisked away silently and deleted)?

Each of the possible avenues of immortality has its cost. Both to the individual and to society as a whole.

(And on the topic of propaganda, is a http://www.365tomorrows.com/11/24/on-the-job-training/ propaganda? http://www.365tomorrows.com/01/16/off-key/? http://www.365tomorrows.com/07/23/king-of-kings/? http://www.365tomorrows.com/09/07/in-accordance-with-prophesy/? http://www.365tomorrows.com/11/01/binary-thinking-101/? http://www.365tomorrows.com/10/31/the-delicacies-of-zombiekind/? http://www.365tomorrows.com/05/10/exabyte/?)

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 7 2011, 03:46 AM

Regarding the above “avenues” of longevity, of course they all sound terrible – they were obviously meant to. They also sound ridiculously *implausible* so I’m not going to waste 1 second worrying about them. I’ve heard (and discussed, on transhumanist/nanotechnology sites) and among futurist-minded friends, some plausible problems with readily available life extension (and accompanying possible/probable post-economic social transformation with a sufficiently advanced level of nano-manufacturing that is almost certain to go hand in hand with it), but those scenarios aren’t among them. If we’re submitting speculative fiction pieces on this topic, I’ll submit Marshall Brain’s various works on these subjects; some are hopeful, some are downright worrying – which is usually about how reality eventually turns out most of the time. My point is, the scenarios you’ve submitted (prior to this post) are so “out there” that they really just constitute borrowing trouble where it not only doesn’t exist, but almost certainly won’t, either. As far as the social problems of life extension go, if the mere existence of a relatively small “immortal elite of the rich” is all we have to worry about, we’re getting off easy.

Regarding the second set of stories you’ve submitted, I haven’t looked at them yet, just the ones from your previous posts. If there’s better fiction on that site, you certainly haven’t done it any favors by presenting what look to be its worst examples here in past posts, but I’ll have a look at these new ones.

EDIT:

I will also submit, as a semi-whimsical entry with a serious message, http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html, billed and regarded as the first transhumanist fairy tale.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 7 2011, 04:02 AM

But we aren't killing each other off fast enough. Or groups that make sense. KILL THOSE WITH OIL! SAVE THOSE WITH FLIES!

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 04:07 AM

So, the invasion of Canada is happening, when?

Posted by: Christian Lafay Jul 7 2011, 11:25 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red Fear it, ya crazy mountain savage. Haha

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 02:24 PM

Forgive me, there's 2166¹ stories that have been posted, and I haven't read all of them (I'm currently working my way backwards again and I'm at last October). Much less remembered every single story in detail sufficient enough to find it again.



There's two thousand one hundred and sixty some stories on that site. Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of it is crap. And 90% of it is crap (although there's only been one story I was unable to read, it was some kind of social commentary on the uneducated...or something). They have a sizable collection of regular writers (about six?) and occasionally post things written by readers. Some of them are god awful, some of them are real gems. The ones I posted "in my previous posts" are rather middling. The one about the one-on-one death match is a favorite of a friend of mine, so probably is one of the gems. If I could find the one I was physically incapable of reading, that's probably the worst ever submitted (the entire thing was written in colloquial uneducated southern drawl....I think, I'm honestly not sure).



I can't think of any reply to this bit. I read and enjoyed the story, but can't form a coherent sentence about what I think of it, with regards to the discussion.

¹Give or take, due to leap years.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 7 2011, 04:56 PM

Former mountain savage. I'm in the prairies now.

I fear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Bacon more, however.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 05:08 PM

I've actually seen some of that movie. My physics professor in highschool was weird.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 7 2011, 06:25 PM

Was he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Science_Project?

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 7 2011, 07:10 PM

No. Although that looks like a fun movie.

My physics teacher provided materials for us to have hot chocolate in class. We watched several (not-physics-related) movies (such as Top Gun). And I loved reading Discover Magazine just to point out things that had recently been disproved (he hated that so much, but he had his ways of teasing me back).