Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 6 2011, 04:47 AM

Path of the Magi

The metamagic ability allows the mage to cast certain, themed, spells as a simple action rather than the standard complex action. They may still only cast one spell per phase though. They choose their magic rating in spells off of one of the following lists;

Need help with other lists if anyone would be so kind.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 6 2011, 05:01 AM

While mages normally don't cast spells as a simple action, they can always split their dice pool and cast multiple spells.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 6 2011, 05:21 AM

Mmmmm more magicrun.

Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 6 2011, 07:28 AM

Also totally insane. Full, non-inhibited spellcasting as a simple action? As if a spell per complex action isn't insane enough.

Nonononono.
If you REALLY have to do something like that make it: Learn those spells easier (SLIGHT karma reduction) or possibly a combined caster+drain bonus (but smaller than centering or such). Or allow for "Guaranteed drain, because of intense training in a category"- something like Initiations/3 guaranteed drain resist or somesuch.

But don't give them double the power for 8 karma. That is nuts.

Posted by: Aerospider Jul 6 2011, 07:54 AM

Yup. Seriously, a bunch of new spells for one initiation AND a special ability is nuts. Unless you meant for the spells to be learned as normal and for Magic to limit how many it applies to, which would be more feasible.

How about forgetting the categories (though I suspect that is what you like most about it), give no free spells, limit the number of spells to Initiation grade and make the magician choose a new spell each time his grade goes up (and allow him to choose spells he hasn't learned yet) but allow two simple-action casts per turn.

How does that sound?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 6 2011, 09:15 AM

I think some of you misssed the part saying that a mage could still only cast one spell per IP
Also i'm 99% sure he doesn't mean that you get those spell with the metamagic, just that those will be the spell it works with when you have them.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 6 2011, 11:23 AM

@OP: What exactly was it you wanted to achieve by this metamagic? Did you want to enable something specific?

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 6 2011, 11:40 AM

You could simplify this by something like:

Technique: Spellslinger

This Technique allows the Initiate to choose one Spell he must know per Initiation grade. These Spells can now be cast as a simple Action rather than a complex action. The initiate still can only cast one spell per IP, yet this technique allows him to use his second simple action for other activities like using a gun.

It's way easier to track, follows the rules for metamagic techniques and still allows for theming even if the theme is up to the player himself.

Posted by: Aerospider Jul 6 2011, 11:57 AM

As Dakka Dakka mentioned straight off the bat, there is always multi-casting. Therefore there should be no mention of "still only one spell per IP/phase/complex action/etc". The correct terminology would be "still only one spellcasting action per IP", unless the intention is to deny the initiate multi-casting for his special spells, which I think would be the fatal blow for this technique.

Personally I think it would be easier (and more analogous to other areas of SR) to allow two simple spellcasting actions in the same IP, though as that would be very powerful the metamagic technique would have to be powered down in other respects to keep it balanced. Perhaps -2 DP on the second one or something (like a magical 'recoil' or whatever).

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 6 2011, 12:07 PM

Multicasting is still one action so there is no difference between saying one spell per IP and one spellcasting action per IP. Only the pool is modified to compensate for the multiple casting. This is STILL possible but would only count as a simple action rather than a complex action. Yet all of the spells the Initiate wants to multi-spellsling need to be on his list for that technique. Otherwise he couldn't multicast them in a simple action.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 6 2011, 12:12 PM

If it is just the theme you are looking for you could add a specializations. Instead of using the traditional spell categories, define the specialized part as Fire spells or Telekinetic spells etc.

If you don't mind drawbacks in other categories look at the Aspected Magician negative Quality combined with the "Expert Aspected Magician" optional rule.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 6 2011, 02:11 PM

How about an ability that allows the caster to cast while doing other tasks, using half his dice pool for both tests.

For example, slice with a sword while punching with Clout. Both tests use half dice, as they are splitting their attention between the two. It allows more activity than just a simple action, but represents the difficulty of splitting your attention.

Posted by: Makki Jul 6 2011, 02:29 PM

I thought the same, so I *thumbsup*

Posted by: Aerospider Jul 6 2011, 05:49 PM

This is purely semantics now, but how can 'one spell per IP' permit multicasting? I use one complex action to split my dice between a Stunbolt and an Increase Reflexes and I end up casting one plus one equals two spells in a single IP.

If RAW were worded as 'one spell per IP' there would be a few dozen DS threads purely on the impossibility of multicasting.

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 6 2011, 05:52 PM

Ah I see what you mean. Had it the other way around. So yeah, "one spell per IP" would prohibit multicasting. When I wrote that I totally ignored the possibility that you could multicast different spells.

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 6 2011, 05:52 PM

Doublepost.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 7 2011, 01:35 AM

I intended those lists as ideas, and they had to be purchased as normal.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 7 2011, 01:37 AM

Thanks for clarifying things, apparently i didn't do such a good job originally. This is what I meant.

As for multicasting, I was thinking of allowing it so long as both spells are on the mage's list.

Posted by: TheOOB Jul 7 2011, 09:02 AM

I think one of the major balancing factors of magic is that it's a complex action, and I would be reluctant to allow anything that breaks that.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 7 2011, 09:43 AM

Essentially what this does is very close to what Quickened Spells do in D&D 3.x, it makes magic completely dominant. It is faster than anything else you could do, you get to do everything anyone else can do, and cast a spell on top of it. In other words pure cheese and a complete breaking of the game.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 7 2011, 09:45 AM

Pretty much this.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 7 2011, 10:15 AM

Not even close.
Allowing mages to get an simple action in addition to casting few of her spells, isn't nowhere near that in how it affects the game.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 7 2011, 06:51 PM

Are you essentially doubling his actions? Yes. Are you letting him become more powerful by breaking a key balancing factor? Yes. Sure it's not as drastic as Quickened Spells in D&D but the effect is the same to make mundanes even more mundane.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:10 PM

I am curious... How can you be more Mundane than Mundane?

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 7 2011, 08:40 PM

What he means is that Mundanes would be made even more "worthless" than they "now" in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:51 PM

Hmmm... Good thing that I don't agree with that sentiment...

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 7 2011, 11:37 PM

Shadowrun is still a dystopic setting. So not leaving your mundane humanity behind to be transhuman (like in "better as a human can naturally be") or being born as potentially awakened HAS to suck. that's why you want to augment in the first place.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 7 2011, 11:56 PM

Actually I don't think they are worthless now, even though they have a lower degree of potential than one of the magic using types, they are still capable. Now if spellcasting is a simple action and I can shoot guns on top of it, you essentially allow a caster to have his cake and eat it too. Mundanes essentially fall even further behind in the degree of potential, but in this case it is not an endgame scenario but a everyday play scenario which would in my opinion break things pretty badly.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 7 2011, 11:56 PM

The problem is one fo the few upshots to "mundane" actions is many of them are simple actions whereas magic is always always always a complex. Changing that dynamic has ramifications for all non spell casters as not only will spell casters be able to do the spell casting thing but they will have the time to do "whatever" the mundanes do that is a non complex.

Put in perspective this would quite literally make spell casting faster then hacking or firing a drone weapon that's a problem no matter what you propose to limit it by.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 9 2011, 12:00 AM

We've been using this in the game my husband runs and it hasn't been overpowered so far.

He is curious what people would think about just making the spells on the list simple action and let a mage be able to cast two spells.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 9 2011, 11:14 AM

I'm curious what the ratio of mages to everyone else is in your game for the record I think the change is silly overpowered and is bound to cause more magicrun.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 9 2011, 02:04 PM

I rarely agree with Lurker as regards the quantity/quality of magic in the game, but in this instance agreed, the only way this is not silly overpowered is if your party is heavy on the magic, and the mundanes don't care to say anything about it. Interestingly even Earthdawn uses a slow magic model to balance out the fact that magic using characters are not only area effect weapons they are swiss army knives to boot. Make magic even easier and well everyone will be using it.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 10 2011, 05:27 AM

Out of our group of five, we have one rigger, one physical adept, and three mystic adepts. They're all part of the same lodge.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 10 2011, 05:48 AM

That would explain why your not having complaints, 3 out of 5 people are loaded up on the cheese, one out of five is doing one of the few thing magic can't do until they release the next splat (with the Control: Done spell). The adept is likely the one that's hurting.

Again not to knock on your fun but it IS overpowered, you've just got so much magic in your group that no one is noticing. You are the magical collosi bestriding the world of mere mortals.

Posted by: Kesendeja Jul 11 2011, 08:26 AM

Would adding prerequisite powers help tone it down? What ones would you suggest?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 08:55 AM

Like I asked before: what are you trying to achieve with this power?

If it's about themed magic, I don't think this is really the best way to do it. The "action cost" for spellcasting is a tricky thing, and already quite powerful.

What about a metamagic that makes learning particular groups of spells easier (cheaper)? It doesn't escalate in power quite so much, but it's useful.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 10:21 AM

I don't think anything tones it down, no matter the prereqs it is a drastic change to the game. Is it because your rigger gets a lot of actions via drones? or does your Physical Adept make the Mystic Adepts seem slow? Either way that is something they are specializing in. The whole drawback of a Mystic Adept is that you don't get to specialize, and it looks like to me as if you are trying to circumvent it by creating a completely unbalance power which changes things in such a manner as to make casters capable of shooting and casting at the same time. What is wrong with things as they would stand without this power for you? Frankly as it stands it smacks of munchkinry.

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 11 2011, 01:49 PM

What do you mean by a Mystic Adept don't get to specialize? The whole idea is that you HAVE to specialize if you don't want to waste your karma. But you won't get as powerful as either an adept OR a mage.

Posted by: Pendaric Jul 11 2011, 04:14 PM

In previous additions, hermetic speciallists got more dice. Perhapes a increase in the dice pool in your specialisation or , as mentioned, karma decrease to learn the specialist spells and increase or denial of out of specialist spells is the better option?

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 11 2011, 07:30 PM

I still think you can achieve action with magic casting using my earlier suggestion... With the metamagic you are able to Cast and perform one other action simultaneously, using half dice for both tests. Gun and cast, slice and cast, whatever.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 08:15 PM

A Mystic Adept makes a fundamental decision to be a jack of all trades at the very beginning, how much of one is determined by the split and future karma expenditures. A Mystic Adept specializing in one or the other aspect is always a generalist compared to an equivalent BP and karma Physical Adept or Magician build even if he "specializes" in one over the other.