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Posted by: suoq Jul 6 2011, 11:24 PM

So, after the (to me anyway) sudden uprising against the Sensitive System quality in the Pacifism thread, I'm curious as to what other qualities (positive and negative), gear, software, abilities, etc. people have effectively "banned" at their table.

I've been amused with the "Sensitive System" responses because it's one of the qualities (such as "Restricted Gear") that doesn't really impact play once the session starts. Sure, the character isn't going to get ware, but that's the player's intent anyway. Then again. any "disadvantage" is, when you look at it, something the player intends to impact the game in a way they either enjoy or don't mind. I want to find the table where the GM tries to shift the player away from something like Sensitive System and towards something like, for example, Combat Monster, which is going to be a lot more disruptive to the game.

So I'm trying to think of other cheese people will claim they would ban that just doesn't get talked about here. I understand we're used to things like the Emotitoy. I'm more interested in things like Technomancer faces (Complex Forms: Empathy Software and Simrig), the HK-227X (It's only Restricted?), Dermal Sheathing (It's not even restricted?), Glamor, or other things your (or other people's) players have tried to get away with over the years.

Where does the cheese just get too stinky for your tastes?

Posted by: Mäx Jul 6 2011, 11:49 PM

Okey, i'm seriously wondering if we're reading the same thread or not, considering i'm not seeing anykind of "uprising" in that thread.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 6 2011, 11:55 PM

No one said anything about banning sensitive system. They said don't be a munchkin and take it if you don't intend to get any ware.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2011, 12:19 AM

I personally only smack players for trying to take it if their character already has some reason they wouldn't take 'ware.

Like, for example, no, your pixie power mage can't take it, cos he really can't take 'ware anyhow. There's no negative impact.

But the mundane guy who wants to make a skill-based character? He could benefit greatly from 'ware. If he chooses to take Sensitive System, it's fine with me, even if he never takes any 'ware. Because 'ware is a viable source of advantages and power for that character, and Sensitive System cripples that source. It has actual impact on him.



-k

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 12:36 AM

Even if the character is taking ware, it's not necessarily an issue.
For awakened characters, any ware less than .5 is not an issue. Any ware greater than 1.5 is cost-ineffective.
For non-awakened characters it's not an issue at all. The moment it becomes an issue, the character can't be built.

So yes, effectively it's banned by those GM's who consider it being a munchkin for unwired characters to take. There's a small window where it's 5 free points instead of 15 free points, but it's either free points or worthless. It doesn't impact play, it only impacts character creation, except for a couple edge cases.

For a mage, it's a choice. Take the cybereyes or take the sensitive system. (Or work the cybereyes to be .5 essence or less and take both). I can't think of any ware a technomancer even needs off the top of my head, so it seems like a no-brainer for technomancers to take unless you don't care about the points (understandable, but technomancers can always use some more points) or you already have the disadvantages you want (also understandable). But I can't think of a reason for a technomancer to take it that some GM won't call "munchkin" on.

So yes, if you're saying "don't be a munchkin and take it if you don't intend to get any ware", you're really saying "it's banned", because once character creation is over, it's never going to impact the character as much as other -15 BP qualities.

I'm fine with it being banned. I'm just fascinated by the stance people are taking on it.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 7 2011, 01:08 AM

People don't upgrade their ware/buy new ware in your games?



You're discussing a stance no one is taking. No one said anything about banning it.

It's like the thread this discussion spun off from. Don't take Sensitive System if you're not going to take ware, just like you don't take pacifist and then shoot people in the face with your drones BFG.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 01:17 AM

It's not a question of banning. There's a simple general rule: a Negative Quality is invalid if it doesn't hurt you. Sensitive System skirts that line, because avoiding 'ware is very close to 0% hurtful for certain characters (i.e., many Awakened/Emergent). It does restrict their future options, etc.

It's not the most blatant example, and (personally) it's more in the 'mitigated so it's worth less' category (like paraplegic hackers, etc.). Such examples are available in the RAW, with 'mitigated' NQs being worth less BP. Sensitive System, for Awakened/Emergents, could easily be a 5 or 10 BP NQ. It depends on the group, the GM, the players…

Clearer examples of fully invalid NQs are also available. Say, Incompetent (Pilot Suborbital). And so on.

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 7 2011, 01:36 AM

There are generally two schools of thought on Qualities - either it's a simple point-buy system for building an optimal character from the options available, or it is a way to aid role-playing and character development by making more interesting and unique shadowrunners.

Role-players find Sensitive System to be a cop-out since it is rarely used to add drama or characterization to a Shadowrunner - it is bought, worked around, and ignored. Getting those same points from having a tragic background and some enemies might not be in the character's best interest, but it is in the best interest of the story. (I have to admit, I used Sensitive System as a tragic background for my Rigger, but I'm probably the exception)

Advocates of the point-buy philosophy see Sensitive System as easy points; a well-planned character who takes it will suffer less from it then they would from most other choices. Barring forced implantation, the GM can't use Sensitive System to screw you. This is unbalanced in the player's favor, and the argument for and against it is pretty much along the lines you would expect - depending on who you ask, it's either a great trick or a dirty cheat.

Personally, I think that the GM deserves to have veto power over the entire rulebook, and I think that it doesn't get used often enough. One thing that Shadowrun lacks is any sort of progression from "rookie with a scrounged 9mm" to "cyborg war hero with an AI-driven rocket launcher". If a GM allows the entire RAW at character creation, then he's committing to a high-power campaign, and that's not necessarily the best place to start. I'm not saying ban things, but don't let them *start* with armored trucks and assault cannons unless you *want* to be running a war zone.

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 02:51 AM

I'm lucky. I fell into a group with FOUR other GMs. I haven't gotten to just play like this in... Wait. I've never had it this good. I have home campaign notes, but if I keep up this lucky streak I'll never have to use them.

That being said. This is what I, personally am used to:
1) If one of my characters had the nuyen to buy new ware, he'd retire.
2) If someone was offering me new ware, I'd be really paranoid about what's going into my body.

Sure, there are games out there where the secondhand ware is trustworthy and the pirated software is clean as a whistle, but while I'm not a fan of the "the whole world is a horrible dystopia" line, I still don't trust gift horses.


Shouldn't that be "Don't take Sensitive System if you're not going to take ware, just like you don't take pacifist if you're not going to hurt people." That makes a much better analogy to me. The whole point of "pacifist" is to remove a choice that the player didn't intend on making in the first place. You don't take pacifist if you're going to shoot people because you take it NOT to shoot people. You don't take Sensitive System if you're going to take ware because you take it as the reason your character doesn't and isn't planning on getting ware.


The thing is, even Incompetent (Pilot Groundcar) isn't that much of a handicap. Chances are someone else on the team is driving anyway. In many locations today it's not even a handicap (New York City and London both leap to mind). A bunch of the 5 point ones seem that way to me. Weak Immune System for example. "-2 dice pool to resist diseases." Really. Not even a "and you can't roll edge"? Was that ever intended to have a game impact? It's even written in such a way as to encourage those with .002 essence left to take it as a disadvantage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 02:56 AM

Interesting... New Ware is not all that expensive, actually. I am amazed that you never purchase ware after character creation. Kind of hard to retire on 50,000 Nuyen after all (expecially since most Ware is cheaper than 50,000 Nuyen).

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 03:08 AM

Hmmm. 10 months of a nice middle lifestyle or buy more ware and keep getting shot at.

I'd definitely consider a nice long vacation, and not in Bogata. I'm imagining what Philip Marlowe or Sam Spade, would do with that kind of dough, and I'm imagining a room over a bar, not a better gun, car, suit, and office.

I think one of my personal character issues is that none of my characters WANT to be shadowrunners. Some sample backgrounds trimmed to short.

• "Burn Notice" except from the mafia.
• Ares gun salesman to the rich and powerful suddenly finds himself unemployed and unemployable.
• Docwagon employee wondering why he gets paid so much less than shadowrunners to go in there and pull them out.

All of these characters had a plan. Shadow running is what happened to them when the plan failed. I understand that there are people who can get behind a character who likes doing this and isn't suicidal, but I'm not one of those people. For example, I could never play (in a game) Ed Moseby (Mickey Rourke's character in Domino). I simply don't understand the character. Maybe this is all he knows, and this is all he's good at, but such a character doesn't seem to be going anywhere to me. They're already there.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 7 2011, 03:39 AM

I already replied in the other thread, but I think sensitive system is basically a character growth limiter. Any character growth limiter is inherently cheesy, because they are nearly always taken for areas the player doesn't plan to develop more than minimally, in the first place. You won't see a budding face take uncouth. You won't see the street samurai take sensitive system. You won't see the hacker take sim vertigo. You will see the troll muscle take uncouth, the bioware-enhanced adept take sensitive system, and the neo-Luddite mage take sim vertigo.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having a problem with it, either. I'm only saying, don't be a dick about it. Like me with the ever-popular emotitoy ban. If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 7 2011, 04:26 AM

And you damn well bet if I'm running that will actually bite him the ass like a negative quality should.



Not in any game I'm running. That's munchkin cheese along the lines of the "Geas: Being Alive" brought up in the other thread. If I wanted players to have free points I'd start them with more BP/Karma when you take a negative quality it should be a negative.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 04:53 AM

Sensitive system is a bit different; if you force cyberware on an awakened character (as a GM), then you're being a tool. If you don't, then you're giving them free points. There's not really a middle ground on this particular flaw. Uncouth can EASILY be called out in a "Fish out of water" manner, but how can you do that with Sensitive System, really? Lost essence = wasted BP/Karma that could go elsewhere.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 7 2011, 07:50 AM

Suoq it's the second time in a thread you've mentioned hawking your characters ware as a viable alternative to starting shadowrunning or not upgrading your ware because it is theoreticly viable to retire that money. I don't buy either bit of logic, if your an ex-commando with a 250,000 dollars worth of ware in you your looking at 25-50kk maximum, that's going to buy you a couple years maximum at medium lifestyle. In that exchange you've gone from being someone able to handle themselves in the rough and tumble world of Shadowrun to what we might refer to as "a victim".

Not a good career move if you ask me.

I've always felt that retirement level for my characters is less measured in raw money and buying a permanent lifestyle and more in having the right contacts to get out of the game and stay out or at least get into a position where I profit off runners rather then do Shadowruns myself.

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 08:49 AM

I must be misunderstanding. In this case I thought it was "You've saved up 50 grand, cash, why aren't you buying ware?" To which I wonder, why? That just gets me deeper into the shadows, and my characters goals tend to be, oddly enough. get out of the shadows. Maybe I should play an Ed Moseby someday, but I don't see the avenues for character growth. I'm not saying they're not there, I'm just saying I don't see them.


And I believe that 50 grand could be better saved against the day where you can become the gunsmith, or the fixer, or REMF for a merc squad than spent on letting some street doc go digging in my military ware. To you, does your ex-commando with a 250,000 dollars worth of ware need more ware if his goal is to get into a position where he profits off runners rather then do Shadowruns himself? What does your ex-commando do when he's banked 50 grand?

But you're a much better person to ask than myself, since you've been running Missions and non-Missions longer and more often than me. How often do people upgrade their ware at the tables you sit at? (GM or player)

Posted by: TheOOB Jul 7 2011, 08:56 AM

Unless you're playing one of those races that can only take delta, I allow sensitive system. 'ware is really powerful, and even mages are better off with it.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 7 2011, 09:20 AM

Ex-commando might be a bad example as most of them that i've known (and therefore those who i've modeled character after) were adrenaline junkies and thrills seekers. So they used that 50k on better ware and thought it a good investment.

PS. It's 4AM+ go to bed.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 7 2011, 10:07 AM

I'm sort of on the fence about Sensitive System. A mage with cybereyes certainly has a right to it; he loses precious fractions of Essence he might have used to buy some other interesting 'ware. But a character who wouldn't really want 'ware anyways, I'd call it cheesy.

I've got a much bigger beef with stuff like Incompetent: Blades for the Unarmed Adept.

I think emotitoys are cute; I just don't allow them to give a big bonus to social rolls. But you could use them as a sort of improvised lie detector, if you don't feel the need to be taken seriously.

I might ban SnS, or restrict it only to shotguns. Because they're a bit too good, and they damage the niche for tasers.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 7 2011, 11:43 AM

It usually goes like this: I could save this 50k it took me three months to save and keep saving it until I get 500k to retire -IF- I survive until then -OR- I take this 50k and spend it right now in gear or ware to give me an edge so I can survive more easily and be able to take more money.

I know this is kind of a vicious cycle but in the end of the day what does it matter if you were 10k away from retirement if the corp you were invading gave you the permanent-no-going-back-kind of retirement?

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 01:36 PM

Note that the character with the sensitive system (that's what this discussion is about after all) isn't likely to be buying more ware.
Neither is the awakened character at the edge of losing more magic.
Neither is the character already out of essence.

The only characters likely to buy ware are the characters whose creators either:
1) planned to have them buy ware during the game at character creation.
2) learned something that has encouraged them to make new choices for the character.

I don't know what's on your shopping lists, but ware is very rarely, if ever on mine. I'm curious as to what ware other people have bought over their careers since it seems to be a surprise to people that my characters tend not to. What ware have people bought for your characters POST char creation and why didn't they start with it?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 7 2011, 01:38 PM

What about 'ware with an availability above what's accessible at CharGen?

Posted by: squee_nabob Jul 7 2011, 01:55 PM

I think it is interesting in a game called shadowrun, where the characters are shadowrunners, some characters have motivations to stop being shadowrunners. It is a completely logical, sensible move for the average person. I know if I became a shadowrunner, I’d want to get out of the shadows ASAP. OTOH since Shadowrun is fun, I want to play a character that goes on shadowruns, regardless of the fact that he could do legal activities, or become a fixer (being a fixer is where the real money is at, and you are almost never shot).

I guess what I’m saying, is that while 99% of the runners in the shadows may want to get out, I have found it more fun to play the 1% that want to be there. Usually my characters retire when they care strongly enough about something that they would run for free (my TM is retiring to become a full time TM’s rights terrorist for example).

As far as banned stuff: Emotional Software, Emotoy, Iron Will, Resonance Realms, Metaplanes, probably a few other things.

If I was being more extreme in my house rules, and not just banning things then adepts need a complete rework to work based on their magic score to make non-cyber, non-mystic adepts better

Example:
Improved Skill +(Magic devoted to power points/2, round up) to a skill. This cannot exceed skill rating x1.5, .5 power point.

The matrix rules need to be simplified and replaced,

Mages need a modification, although I would have to think more about how to do this.

EDIT: Usually I'm buying ware above avail 12, such as rating 3 cerebral boosters, cyberweapons, and some cyber limbs.

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 02:01 PM

Unless I'm missing something, that would be ware that's beta or better or ware with an availability > 20.

I'll be honest. I'm not that nice of a guy. Such an opportunity would be (in other genre's terms) more like going on a quest. Getting possession of the ware and a place that can insert it is likely to require taking everyone else down the rabbit hole with you. But that's me. I'm not that nice.

Does it happen frequently in your campaign?

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 7 2011, 02:07 PM

The only quality banned at our table is Astral Hazing. Everything else goes, although we have a Gentleman's agreement not to take incompetences in skills that you can't actually use.

Oh, and there was the one incident where a PC took Big Regret, and said something along the line of Ex-member of the Russian mob. The DM then decided that the character in question was responsible for breaking in new "recruits" in a russian child porn racket.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 02:17 PM

The third one, the character "already out of essence" is actually likely to buy new ware to upgrade what he has already. Does he have a standard cybertorso? Well, he could get a custom chassis built with a higher inherent body rating, maybe troll-grade, so that he can later purchase similarly better cyberlimbs and perform above and beyond. Maybe he still has some capacity, or can afford a little more essence for a limb with more capacity so he can install a nano-hive, and thus can afford nanites to increase performance.

There are numerous little upgrades you can make to ware after chargen, including upgrading to deltaware (unless you're type-O) and using the spare essence holes for other wares.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 7 2011, 02:19 PM

I will say, I never found Sensitive System on Adepts very cheesy-especially since the most optimal adepts DO take 1-2 points of 'ware that I've seen built. On a Mage or Technomancer, maaaybe, though a mage with some ware can be rather frighteningly effective(I know this from experience-we had one in our games, and I've played one.)

But I'm in the boat of yes-there are things I've not liked in my games(before it was actually ruled, I ruled that you could not get more than +3 DV from MA Qualities-I mean, I love martial arts characters but even I found people stacking +7-8 DV appallingly cheesy), but indeed, I don't name-call, or accuse of munchkining. (My PoV of a Munchkin is different than others it seems-I always thought Munchkins were people out to blatantly cheat and hurt the game for their own amusement-not someone who wanted a few extra BP.)

That, and our table is very fast and loose. In fact, we sort of have a little fun 'rule'-if you're trying to get extra BP and you take one of the 'lighter' flaws-don't try to lie about it. We'll know. Just be honest ''yeah, I took Sinner-I needed the points-just so you know' ''Alrighty, I'll figure a way to fit this in.'' Other tables are stricter and want a super-strict explanation of every single NQ a character has, and if it doesn't pass a highly strict test, it's out. Hey, that's fine too-not the type of game I like to play in but if someone else's table has fun that way, no problem.

I CAN understand some of the issues with some of the qualities. Like Sensitive System's seemingly no middle ground; you're a douche if you force cyber on a character, or you let them have free points. Though I look at things some other ways.

If a non-magical, non Techno non Cyber character takes this, they are *already* at a huge disadvantage in this game. The points aren't going to do much to offset this. IMO they deserve it.(and yes, I know this may not be a very popular outlook.)

If a magical or techno takes it, while I can't speak for technos, as I said above, these characters can still benefit very highly from 1-2 points of 'ware, and thus, IMO, it's an impact. It prevents full optimization of an adept, I know that much(unless I missed something in one of the later sourcebooks which now transforms fully natural Adepts into better ones.)

Oh, as for Availability at Chargen? Ditched in full at my table, with a ''Take what you want, don't be a numpty'' rule. If you want something that fits your character and can afford it, take it. If you want something that might not fit, try to come up with a good story for it and we'll take it from there.

I'm a HUGE believer in the phrase ''Don't tell someone no. Tell them it might be rough, tell them they might need to work at it, tell them it might need some compromise, but give them a chance'' at my table, so I'd have to say very, very little actually gets nailed. (If I DO nail something, it's for a very, very good reason.)

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 02:22 PM

Unless I"m missing the math, the sensitive system dude with ware can do that as well. I'm not seeing the difference. Help me understand why having ware with a sensitive system is more of a disadvantage than not having ware with a sensitive system. I'm admittedly slow and may need an example or two.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 7 2011, 02:24 PM

Would you also call it cheesy if a character who doesn't want to kill people takes Pacifist?

If a player choses to restrict his character (and foregoing cyber sure is a restriction), I don't see why he should be penalized because this restriction fits with how the character will be played.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 7 2011, 02:36 PM

Suprathyroid gland as the first thing. Ultrasound hearing, echolocation and speech modification to reach ultrasound (forget its name), also I saved a lot of money to buy me a thunderstruck gauss rifle that I dubbed 'Trollslayer' and several highly illegal gas grenades.

A friend of mine also bought suprathyroid gland post character creation, dermal plate rating 3, muscle toner 4, etc. etc.

Now, why didn't we start with restricted gear?
Because we had other stuff we wanted to buy with our 35 points in Positive qualities.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 02:49 PM

Over the course of the campaign, I have advanced all the Cyberware I started with (At Alpha) through Beta and to Delta Grade. I only have a single Piece of Cyberware at Standard Grade, and that was because I had only recently bought it, and only had the resources for Standard Grade. It will be upgraded eventually through to Delta. My Bioware is about 90% Alpha Grade, with a Few pieces at Standard, and a Few at Delta. All my Bioware started at Standard Grade.

Of course, the Character is a cyberlogician, so much of his cyberware is Communications, Sensor, and Headware based, with a few pieces of body ware (primarily centered around a MBW II system, or Sensors that are not Headware). He has 4 Delta Grade Datajacks, a heavily encrypted Datalock, and 4 SOTA Internal Comlinks as his primary headware. Most of that came after character generation (Started with 2 Datajacks and the Datalock, and 1 Internal Comlink).

Yes, I know, a lot of redundancy in there, but that was intentional.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 02:49 PM

Sensitive System doubles the essence cost of any cyberware. Bioware is still available at normal essence cost. It basically makes cyberware a non-optimized choice for character improvement.

Edit: you can think of it as the opposite of "Type O System" from Augmentation. Type O means all standard ware is treated as deltaware for you. Sensitive System means that all cyberware is rejected to some degree by your system.

Posted by: squee_nabob Jul 7 2011, 02:51 PM

The difference is that Pacifist prevents you from going on some runs. In a home campaign that's not a problem (the GM can either ask you to sit out, or not throw those runs), in SRM, it means you have the 5 point disad to not play in some missions.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 02:54 PM

To muddy the waters, bioware is already superior to cyber in most ways. While forgoing *all* 'ware would be a moderate problem for Awakened, skipping just cyber is much less so.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 7 2011, 02:57 PM

I'm not a fan of Restricted Gear. I want there to be plenty of things you can still yearn for that aren't available from the beginning.







Hmm, makes me wonder about Pacifism yeah. But I think if you play a character who wasn't going to take cyber anyway, then sensitive system wouldn't be a real disadvantage, and a bit dubious to get points for it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 03:00 PM

Which is why you give reduced points. It's a whopping 15, so plenty of room to charge 5 or 10.

Personally, I don't think 'limiting' yourself to bioware is worth 15 under any circumstances, but it's worth *something*, sure.

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 03:30 PM

I'm amused by the thought that sensitive system may be considered cheesy in the same campaign where deltaware is obtainable.

I'm so glad I get to play. People would hate me as a GM.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 03:43 PM

If you are referring to me, Suoq, I do not consider Sensitive System to be Cheesy. *shrug*
Of course, It is not one of the normal Negative Qualities that I take either...

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 7 2011, 05:13 PM

Why wouldn't deltaware be obtainable? I'm mean, sure, it may take some while but saying it is downright impossible seems a little exxagerating, doesn't it?

Posted by: MikeKozar Jul 7 2011, 06:10 PM

Deltaware makes a lot of sense if you start to think Corp. One of my last runs had some Executive Protection that looked a lot like a sweet little Personal Assistant, but had 2.3 million nuyen in low-profile cyberware taking her down to 0.3 essence. If you think about the mindset of CEOs and other rich bastards, a bodyguard to secure corp assets (i.e., themselves) is worth the investment. What Deltaware does for the game system is make a whole other tier of gear that PCs should not have access to, but the opposition will. Eventually, do some favors, get in good with a corp, and you might get some...but they will *start* with it.

Posted by: suoq Jul 7 2011, 06:34 PM

1) It's the justposition of s.s. being cheesy and deltaware being obtainable that appeals to me.

2) From a personql standpoint, understanding that I don't claim to have the right way, last I heard there were something like 6 delta clinics in the world. That makes them more exclusive than the best clubs, the best secret societies. A runner would not only need the money, he'd need the sponsors, the people whose word opens the socially closed door.

Yes, even in the game of chess, a pawn, if he advances far enough can become a queen. But the pawn has to get there and the king has to give permission, and even then it may all be a sacrifice just to force an opponent out of position.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 06:40 PM

Indeed... It took 2 years of actual gameplay, 300+ Karma, and a signifcant bit of Money and Favors to obtain the Delta Grade 'Ware the character now has. But it was fun getting there...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 06:41 PM

There are at least a Dozen Delta Grade Clinics that can perform Cybermancy.
There are likely a few more that cannot.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 06:43 PM

Still, incredibly rare. It *should* take RL years (if you have a group that does long games).

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 07:04 PM

And you'll still want at least 3 people you KNOW you can trust to watch out for you while the surgery takes place.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 7 2011, 07:56 PM

Found the quote:

Now, the availability of a delta clinic is 24/1 week. Which means that a guy with a 12+ dicepool of Charisma + Negotiation can find one eventually.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 7 2011, 08:01 PM

So thats 6-7 delta clinics in North America alone, couple of witch are indy operations.
So not that rare really.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 08:06 PM

I guess if your definition of 'not rare' means 'maybe a dozen or so on the planet'. There are about 12000 Starbuckses and McDonaldses (each) in the US, 600-some Five Guyses, 35 IKEAs… And they let people in off the street. Compared to a couple non-closed delta clinics in North America.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2011, 08:15 PM

Note that every single Delta clinic is either buried so far under secrecy that you'll never find it, or being watched intently 24/7 by every megacorp on the planet.

Not exactly something your average street or even mid-range Shadowrunner is going to get access to. Or want to.

To put things into perspective, there are probably 10 times (or more) ultra top-secret corporate military facilities of varying sorts than there are Delta Clinics. And those are probably easier to get into.




-k

Posted by: Mäx Jul 7 2011, 08:23 PM

So your saying that the rest of the planet combined has barely as many delta clinics as North America

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 7 2011, 08:26 PM

Given how Japan is the motherland of 3 triple A corps, I would Japan would have as much as the entire North America.

Posted by: Ryu Jul 7 2011, 08:26 PM

Interesting perspective. Mechanically I agree, yet in this case I have never seen the cheese.

It might be because I hold a special place in my hearth for augmented mages, but I don´t see that quality as a good buy except for those exotics that can´t realistically expect to get cyber. And what munchkin takes a mechanical disadvantage over an RP one that can be turned into an advantage or be ignored?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 08:32 PM

I am saying that, yes. I did say 'a dozen or so', intending something between 12 and 20. The point is that it's a very small number, and the vast majority are closed, corp.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:47 PM

Agreed, it Should take some time... I am glad that our games last years upon years.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 09:52 PM

Thank Dog for Type O System...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 10:00 PM

Heh... Type O (for Bioware) and Biocompatibility for Cyberware... the only way to fly, to bad you can't actually pull that one off except through Surge.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 7 2011, 11:51 PM

Makes me think about making a mundane character with BOTH type O system and sensitive system.

Granted, playing Type O PCs is always interesting, seeing as one is a big sack of juicy organs.

Posted by: toturi Jul 8 2011, 02:10 AM

I would have an issue only if the player wasn't informed of emotitoys being banned in the game before the PC joined the game.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 02:18 AM

How could the PC join the game before being approved?

Posted by: Glyph Jul 8 2011, 02:31 AM

Well, ideally, I would state my house rules before people created their characters. But sometimes you will have someone who has a character they have already put together, or something.

Sometimes it is relatively simple to revise a character, while other times, you have to go back to the drawing board. Take astral hazing. If I make a formori ex-pit fighter with SURGE mainly to optimize his Agility, and balance it out with astral hazing, then I could swap it out with a moderate/uncommon allergy easily if that quality was banned. On the other hand, I have a character named Null that is basically built around being supernaturally creepy (nasty vibe, critter spook, astral hazing) and being highly resistant to magic (magic resistance as a SURGE quality, astral hazing). If astral hazing was banned, I would probably do a completely different character, since that quality is fairly central to the concept. So yeah, I would try to lay down my house rules before people make their characters, whenever possible.

Posted by: toturi Jul 8 2011, 03:11 AM

How can a player join a game to create his character if his character needs to be approved before he can join a game?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 03:15 AM

Huh? The *PC* (which is what you said) can't join the game until it (the character) is approved.

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 03:18 AM

Is there a "House Rules" thread? One where people who have all these house rules that the players expect to be informed of can post their house rules for other people to crib off of?

Posted by: toturi Jul 8 2011, 07:00 AM

But can the player join the game(OOCly) before his PC joins the game(ICly)?

Sometimes GMs do not go over the character's stats and equipment with a fine tooth comb before approving it and if the player doesn't know there are house rules, there will be the situation that an approved character has banned items.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 8 2011, 09:50 AM

What's worked very well for me is actually writing down house rules in a document, and emailing them to all the players whenever I update them.

Posted by: Irion Jul 8 2011, 10:14 AM

There won't be a lot to go around in any case. Should not take more than one page, so I can't see the problem.

If it is nobody is wanting to play anyway, because nobody wants to learn a new set of rules for a game.

You only need:
Book allowed to build the character.
Surge yes/no.
Advanced character concepts (which?)
Banned items.
May be some mechanical changes each will probably be around 20 words.

@toturi

Thats why the GM is allowed to ban stuff in game, to correct misstakes.

Posted by: toturi Jul 8 2011, 11:06 AM

The GM is allowed to house rule however he wants.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 8 2011, 11:15 AM

I view (house)rules as a work in progress. If an element in the game isn't working out well, such as a power or equipment that's too powerful ("everyone must have it"), or that just has clunky rules that work awkwardly then it gets changed. The house rule sheet gets updated and sent to everyone.

Changing entire mechanics is a lot trickier. I've done it with D&D and oWoD, and it takes a lot of playtesting and tweaking before a reform of something like the combat mechanics becomes balanced and efficient. But when you simplify 20 pages of clunky rules into 8 pages of streamlined and more elegant rules, that's really nice.

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 12:00 PM

Missions house rules are 8 pages or so.

My notes so far contain a paragraph each for contacts, commlinks, software, dice pools, equipment, rule books, and licenses/SINs. I haven't even gotten into details like emotitoys, glamor, etc. I really despise what they're becoming of necessity, either because of personal tweaks (contacts in no way reflects the skill of the contact), ill-defined rules (commlink response degradation and it's complete lack of effect), rules that throw the whole rest of the system out of balance and/or cause unnecessary paperwork and solo time with a single player (piracy), equipment that bypasses availability restrictions (HK=227X and Morrissey Élan), rule books that I currently have no intention of buying that my players may own, etc. etc.

I suspect if people wrote down which optional rules they used (dice caps), which rules they universally ignored (training of skills), etc., they would find it much more than a single page worth of house rules.

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 8 2011, 12:14 PM

Well, I used to have a DM who seriously considered white-listing every piece of equipment allowed in his campaign. Note that this was in one of the older editions, where every gun still had its own page and artwork.

The threat of administering physical violence to him made him see the light. There's a fine line between "house rules to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved" and "control freak", and white-listing equipment is clearly the latter for me.

Posted by: Irion Jul 8 2011, 12:59 PM

It is just over complicated.

To a certain amount every group has its own "white" list. Consisting of the books and rules they do apply.
Looks like that(for example):
Core book/all
Augmentation/all
Streetmagic/all
Runners Companion/only lifestyle and normal additional Flaws and merits.
etc.
It is a base line you have to establish anyway. The more there are "bad" parts introduced in good books, the more you have to make it more precise.
(So if you want some rules from war! it really might be easyer to write a white list than a black one...)

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 8 2011, 02:07 PM

There's also stuff that isn't rules per se but are widely different group to group. Stuff like how hard is it to cover one's identity, the average matrix security layout, how fast and how easy is it to avoid cops, and what is and is not socially accepted (does SWAT get called for a SMG?). Thankfully players usually adopt fast so you don't need the huge document that it would take to write all these little things out.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 02:07 PM

Yes. Obviously. If the GM approves something without reading it, bad GM.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 8 2011, 03:44 PM

Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?

The HK227X has: 28c, SA/BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor and retractable stock(1 RC). It's 5P, no AP.

The Ingram Smartgun has 32c, BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor, Gast Vent 2 and a Folding Stock(max 3RC). It's 5P, no AP, and 150 nuyen less than the HK. It's also 6R instead of 8R.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I cannot see in any way how an HK227X bypasses Availability restrictions, unless having an SA function on your SMG is incredibly powerful, which in my experience, doesn't really break anything.

The Élan is equivalent nearly to the Scout hold-out-same damage, both SA, the Scout has 2 more bullet capacity. The Elan cannot fire fletchette rounds; it's big thing is the fact it's undetectable by MADs(like the fully legal Bone Density Augmentation and other legal bioware.) Now, I can understand why it's heavy-pistol counterpart the Infiltrator is tougher to get(it's basically a non-MAD detectable Ares Predator 4, complete with 15c and -1AP with heavy pistol ranges, AND the ability to break it down, where the Élan lacks this, and HPs are *considerably* more powerful than a little holdout.)

I'm not being snarky, by the way-I'm genuinely curious. I figure that the Availability limits are put on weapons for a reason. I mean, an Ingram White Knight LMG is only Availability 12, while the Remington 990 shotgun(and a rather excellent gun) is a mere 4.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 04:12 PM

The Ingran and the HK227 both have integral SOund Suppressors, which should change the availability to Forbidden, rather than Restricted.
The Elan is Ceramic Yes? That is also Forbidden Tech, except in the Elan's case, in which case it is Restricted.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 8 2011, 04:29 PM

I assume suoq's talking about the fact they have restricted instead of illegal sound suppressors on the HK-227 and being "ceramic" but restricted on the Elan. However, I'm of the opinion that the legality rules of Shadowrun are messed up, and despite my general distaste on doing it, be given over to GM fiat. That way old women can get plastic lacing for their osteoporosis.

On a related note, I used to like the Smartgun more than the HK-227. Nowadays, I'm more iffy on the subject. Cheaper and 4 more rounds for a firing mode I'll never use? I'm fine with that trade. However since the Smartgun has Gas-Vent 2, you can't add Gas Vent 3 until you take out the old Gas Vent 2. I'm unsure if you can remove the gas vent mod (technically you can, but I could see GMs blocking it). If you can take it out, it isn't too bad, just have the armorer pool or a contact (in Missions it'll cost you 400Y). If you can't, the HK-227 wins since you can put a GV3 on it.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 8 2011, 05:00 PM

Oh, I personally prefer(depending on character) to get more bare-bones weapons and then customizing them. I just like tinkering, I guess. On my sam, I even started him with a pretty high Armoring skill to show that part of things that he does. He helps the team's weapons out like this as well.

And I can see the thing with R vs. F. I was thinking more of the Availability number bypassing(in other words, you are allowed forbidden tech from a character by RAW-unless they changed something, but I do have most of the rulebooks and splats-it was the availability number that the book restricted.) That being said, again, I threw those out the window for chargen, and basically wing it in game(I use the number for the die rolls, sure, but I'll handwave something if I think they can get it or not.)

And yeah, I think some of the Availability bits are nonsensical as well(the perfectly, 100% LEGAL, easier on the system but more expensive Bone Density Augmentation vs. the Bone Lacing which is harder on the system, cheaper but otherwise does the same damn thing but it's forbidden? Eh? Does. Not. Compute.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 05:00 PM

I don't know... the Ingram Smartgun is a package of Awesome, right out of the box, and for less cost. Easy to get, and easily disposable. After all, it is the Street Samurai's best friend.

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 05:47 PM

This

Unmodifed, purchased during a run, I like the Ingram. Starting character for Missions where I can mod the heck out of it, I like the HK227. Put me behind the screen and make it non-Missions and there's a big F on both of them. That doesn't mean you can't buy them, own them, carry them, or face them in combat. Just don't get caught with the dang things.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 8 2011, 06:13 PM

I do admit, I do chuckle a bit in general at Shadowrun vs. RL, where RL, to my knowledge(I guess depending where you live), being caught with an SMG in general, supressed or not, is a big no no.

Shadowrun? As long as it's loud, you can get a permit(well, for the R rated stuff. Not F.) Hell, there's some pretty scary stuff that's available with a permit.

I STILL, to this way, want to know the logic behind making Bone Lacing forbidden. Is it the inate armor? Thinking about it that's the only difference(if I'm not mistaken, Rating 4 bone density gives 1 extra die to regular damage resistance above Titanium Bone Lacing, even.) Really the Inate armor is the only thing I can think of. I mean, I guess if I squint I'd be willing to say the inate armor rating might be enough to slap an R on it, but F? I can't see it. Now that it's pointed out I can see a Forbidden for silencers and sound suppressors and understand that, but this one really just goes over my head.

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 06:23 PM

I like to think of it as "Shadowrun is to the U.S. as the U.S. is to India".

It's just a different culture. My son, in his second year of summer camp with the boy scouts has shot a rifle (next year, shotgun) and completed his Firearm Hunter Education. My former co-workers from India, when told there's a shooting range in town where they can rent guns, were confused at the concept.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 8 2011, 06:40 PM

I don't get the BDA/BL difference in legality either. It's been explained as "legislation not catching up with Bioware yet", but that sounds rather thin.

I read somewhere there was supposed to be a device to detect bioware, either in Augmentation or Arsenal, but because publication dates of those two were switched it fell through the cracks, or something like that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 07:22 PM

Well, there is a device to detect Bioware. Unfortunately, it requires a Full Body, intensive scan, which takes time, and requires a fairly well stocked medical facility (and has a Threshold of 20, if I remember correctly). There is no handheld device to do that.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 8 2011, 09:37 PM

There's a hand held device to check for bioware. Admittedly it takes a lot of time, you have to strap the person be "scanned" to the table, and they probably won't survive. It's called a knife.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 09:53 PM

But you may still never see the Bioware that the victim may, or may not, have... Since they look like normal organs, for the most part, in a lot of cases.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 8 2011, 10:12 PM

This might actually be good for another thread-or hell, this one it might not be that offtopic on.

But looking over the list, there are indeed items that make sense that are restricted with a permit-basic guns and knives, for example. Very believable. And in a world like Shadowrun, it makes sense maybe some of the bigger stuff you can't get so easy IRL has an R on it instead of an F.

F seems to mostly be the realm of A. Military or high end law enforcement gear(and this is understandable), or B. Stuff that's *obviously* used for shady things(Voice secondary patterns).

That being said...I think it's the cyber that's harder for me to grasp why the ratings and the Legal/R/F tags are on them. There isn't really full RL counterparts(well, okay, there are some pretty awesome robotic hands out these days I've seen in videos.)There isn't a *whole* lot of forbidden ware. Some guns(which, IMO, match up with the ordinary guns anyway.) Besides that, the forbidden Cyber/Bio I've found(just using SR4A here for now):

Cortex Bombs(yeah, these need no explanation)
Voice Mod(Secondary Pattern is F, without this it's perfectly legal, and understandable why the secondary pattern is illegal)
Bone Lacing(The biggest question mark of them all)
Cyberarm Gyromount(I suppose they assume if you have one of these you have something that *needs* one of these, so yeah, understandable)
Blades. Here is another question mark-maybe. The only forbidden melee weapon in SR4A is the Monowhip(which I can see why for sure.) All other blades and swords and other stabby things you can get a permit for. I imagine this includes the ability to hide them on your person. The minute you INSTALL a blade, it's forbidden.

Besides the Grenade Launcher in a cyberarm(understandable), that's all the forbidden ware in SR4A, and I admit, the only ones I really agree with are the Cortex bombs, Voice mod copying, and the gyromount. IMO? If you get a damned combat axe, unless you're some kinda futuristic lumberjack, you're using that for a weapon. You can have a permit for this, but not a set of hand razors?

Next up, is the Bioware. I question a couple of these limitations as well.

Adrenaline Pump(I guess i can see why this is forbidden, someone sending this into overload might be a bit...jumpy? Not 100% sold though)
Suprathyroid(What? Why is this forbidden? All it does is make you a little stronger, faster and tougher while requiring you to eat twice as much. For around the same price-and not much essence difference, someone can get 1 level each of muscle aug/toner-low Avail, just need a permit-a reaction enhancer for the same, and a level of legal bone density and basically get the same result as this for some reason illegal thing. Oh, they wouldn't need to eat twice as much.)
Pheremones(I'm...a little weird on these. I think, given their social manipulation thing, I can understand why they'd want these to be illegal.)
Damage Compensators and the Pain Editor: I CAN understand why they might want to make these illegal. On one hand, you can see them used for something cool(a pro stunt guy might be pretty awesome with these), on the other, it could be bad in the wrong hands. I guess I sometimes think about things like-if you can get a permit for an assault rifle-which is likely not used to hunt rabbits, unless their Giant Australian Mutant Rabbits-that can be used for good or ill as well. I'm a little torn. Definite restriction at least, I'm not saying 'make em legal.'

(For the record, I have very little problems with R ratings; I can certainly see why most of this stuff should need a permit at least.) I'd even consider in my games turning most of these to R unless I can really see a reason why they should stay fully illegal. (Not all of course-I'd definitely leave the cortex bombs, secondary pattern, milspec cyberweapons and pheremones as an F-with an 'undecided' on a couple other things.)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 9 2011, 04:46 AM

Going back to sensitive system for a bit, I never had a problem with it. It is a hit to your effectiveness no matter what you are playing, mages almost need eyes at the least so even they are hit by it. Also it does something I like, it reinforces the thematic concept of mages and ware not mixing. Heck I almost think it should be given to all awakened and have in include bioware as part of buying the awakened perks. Honestly I'm not that worried about the "balance or fairness" of those 35 points. I think they are mostly there to add flavor, not to gimp the players in some gotcha trap.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2011, 04:49 AM

If we're talking about nailing magicrun, yes: make them all Sensitive/bioware innately.

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 10 2011, 02:02 PM

I've never ascribed to the 'magicrun' view that Shadowrun has gone too far in empowering Magic. Nevertheless, I would have no trouble with a future edition making Magic incompatible with any and all implants.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 10 2011, 02:54 PM

If you want to get truly weird things with availability, try building a guy with a lot of counter-biometric implants.
A cyber Voice Modulator with Secondary Pattern has avail. R*3 F and costs R*5000 , or you can get the nanoware Voice Mimic for a flat 16F at R*3000 . Fingerprints can be removed with a minor cosmetic modification (see p. 61 Augmentation), avail. 4 and 100-2000 , or with Print Removal genetech, avail. 8F and 25,000¥. Retinal Duplication (cyber) and Retinal Adjusters (nano) both have an availability of 16F, however the cutting-edge nanoware costs 5000 per Rating and the cheap old cyber goes for three times the price (admittedly these two are not completely identical, Retinal Duplication is compatible with other eyeware).

And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 03:15 PM

So you have different approaches to doing the same thing... And what, exactly is the problem with that? Yes, some are suboptimal, but again I say so what. That is how many things in real life are developed. Eventually, the suboptimal ones will fall away, or become niche for some reason that is not obvious, while the other will take off and dominate the market until something better comes along.

Any one remember Betamax?
Or how about Audio Tapes?

You can still get both if you look hard enough...

Posted by: suoq Jul 10 2011, 03:59 PM

For Christmas I got a collection of Tom Waits on heavyweight vinyl. Then again, I don't consider that "suboptimal", the sound is incredible.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 04:16 PM

I hear that a lot.
My parents still have a lot of Vinyl, and they do sound incredible.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2011, 04:50 PM

Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 04:52 PM

This is true... And digital is how it is now done. But you still have die hards who stick to the old stuff. Which is why having 5 different ways to do something with various types of ware is a good thing in my opinion. Even if some of those methods are not optimal.

Posted by: suoq Jul 10 2011, 05:19 PM

No digital lady will ever replace the feel of my wife's skin. No CD will ever replace vinyl to my ears. I love the analog life.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jul 10 2011, 05:22 PM

For me it is not so much the nailing of magicrun, but I just liked the thematic element from the 1e era that magic and ware don't mix. I liked that mages were at a penalty when on the matrix, I liked that ware of any amount was seen as a big hamper to your magic even if after various supplements mechanically it wasn't as bad. While there are a lot of things I prefer as the system evolved, the thematic elements of 1e era shadowrun to me have never been beat.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 10 2011, 05:30 PM

I agree, just being a little slangy. Obviously, Essence Loss/Magic Loss is already part of it, but clearly many people work around that to be very powerful.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 10 2011, 07:58 PM

The problem is that the new high tech nanomagic is cheaper and easier to get than cyber which has been around for 20 years. And from a design standpoint, two items in the same book, one of which is made obsolete by the other, is not the most elegant work

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 10 2011, 09:06 PM

Well lets be honest they've all had that problem, Augmentation has Encephelon I which costs oodles of essence for what it does and a substantial amount of money. For the same cost and a fraction of the essence you can get Pushed which does the job better. I doubt i'm the first to discover this but it did annoy me last night while I stumbled over it.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 11 2011, 12:12 AM

That doesn't bother me quite as much, because they are in the same book, and their effects stack with one another. An encephalon is (to my mind, at least) the pricey option for hackers who are extremely dedicated and want to squeeze every last bit of performance out of themselves. The altskin applications don't bother me, either, because they are more expensive and of a higher Availability than latex masks or nanopaste - they don't make the latter two useless, just as the savior medkit doesn't render a normal medkit useless. People will still use the cheaper options.

I can't really comment about the face morphing cyber from Spy Games. I can only hope they present it in a way that still leaves a niche for the bioware - ideally it would be better in some ways, worse in other ways. After hearing about the munchkin crap in War! I'm not too hopeful about that, but then again, maybe they've learned their lesson.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 11 2011, 12:13 AM

To be fair in that case, they add together. You get PuSHeD and then if you need more, then get the Encephelon. Some hackers might go for it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:11 AM

Sorry Sengir, I just do not see the problems...

Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2011, 01:14 PM

Temple Pharmaceuticals is proud to unveil their newest cutting edge-product, a result of years of research by our dedicated scientists:
Nanite Reflexes
+1 IP and +1 Rea per Rating, R*2000 , Avail 5R, Essence 0.3

Hey, it's more Essence-friendly than its bioware counterpart, while being cheaper and more easily available than the cyberware (you know, the kind of ware which is supposed to be the cheap alternative) equaivalent - but I do not see any problems there...

Posted by: toturi Jul 11 2011, 01:20 PM

Taking into account that this is non-RAW tech, this is nanoware right? Or does it also have house rule advantages over regular nanoware?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 01:27 PM

Thank You Toturi...

Especially since Drugs are even Cheaper than Sengir's Porposal, for the Same Benefit... Cram: +1 Reaction, +1 IP, Cost is 10 . Wow, this must be the most powerful substance ever produced.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2011, 01:52 PM

What are you guys talking about? It's a fake example of an augmentation that's flat better than all the rest (and no, Tymeaus, Cram doesn't beat it). And I'd assume it's nanocybernetics from the description, but how is that at all relevant? The point is that it would be something fundamentally better in every way.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2011, 02:19 PM

This.
Bear with me, I still sometimes forget the problem most English speakers (fun fact, I've even noticed it among locals who stayed in the US or UK for a few years) with analogies, irony, or similar devices


By the way, I looked the Jigsaw Skull in Spy Games and it does not look so bad: Essence cost is higher (it's cyber, after all), Availability higher for low ratings and lower for high ratings, price is exactly the opposite. Overall a nice alternative with its own faults and merits, instead of being flatly better or worse.
What is bad on the other hand are the unclear rules: One can obviously adjust the face manually on the fly with a Disguise + Intuition (4, 3 Combat Turns) Extended Test, or more carefully in two minutes..without a test? I guess so, because it does not mention a test. What's also guesswork is the actual rules effect of the disguise ...Rating added to Disguise test maybe?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:57 PM

Cram does not have to beat it Yerameyahu, all it has to do is compete with it. And it does so quite well in that regard.
Cram is Fundamentally better in every way to what Sengir posted. Same Benefit, No essence Loss (at least initially) and significantly cheaper in such a way that you would need Hundreds of Combats to realize any fundamental difference in Cost. What is the Survival Quotient for Combat. How many Combats are you expected to survive in your career? If it is 200 or less, then the Cram is a MUCH better deal than ANY other Initiative Enhancer out there, bar none.

Drawbacks?

Cram - Possible Addiction
Nanocybernetics - Essence Loss and More Expensive.
Cyber/Bioware - Essence Loss and More Expensive.
Magician - Magician Quality, Heavy Investment in Magic Attribute, Sustaining Focus or Sustaining Penalties, and Spell Cost in BP/Karma (More Expensive).
Adept - Magical Quality and Heavy Investment in Magic Attribute, Heavy Investment in Power Point Expenditure.

Cram is better in Every way, it has a [i]Possible[/i] drawback (that may or may not take effect), while every other option has a Guaranteed Drawback. So... Why does not everyone use Cram? Choice. There is an abundance of choices out there. This is good for Shadowrun.

The Point is, there is absolutely no problem with there being 10 ways to do something in the game. Some will be, by definition, fundamentally better in every way than another (or several others) out there.

Posted by: suoq Jul 11 2011, 03:08 PM

At a certain point you just see that it's universally unbalanced and give up.
The cost of adding X dice to your dice pool is whatever a developer felt the market price might be for an item regardless of other market prices or it's benefit to runners.
For some devices, the market price varies depending on which rules you're using (pirated vs. non-pirated software).
For some devices the effectiveness is purely up to the GM (Vocal Range Enhancer for example).
Even the costs for Karma and BP aren't even remotely related and oddly enough seem designed to be counter to the goal of building a well rounded character. (It's beneficial points wise to specialize under BP to just below hard cap and round out under Karma. I don't understand why that was the goal.)

Some things are just too powerful. Some things are just to weak. In the end it's enough fun that we're all willing to turn off Leverage and play. And that's good enough.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2011, 03:14 PM

Tymeaus, I really don't understand your mind. Cram is +1 IP, this is a notional version of standard +3 IP 'ware (it's *Rating). Cram is temporary, this is permanent (and helps with driving, heh). You're completely ignoring the point of the example, and I can only assume on purpose?

Yes, there are choices, and they're not perfectly balanced like a rock-paper-scissors game. No, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be a *little* balanced, nor that universally superior choices don't basically ruin it. It doesn't mean you should just ignore it all and accept every imperfection, large or small.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 03:41 PM

You're going a little overboard with the nested negations there



Anyway, the point was that ideally, all the available ways to do X have some benefits, some drawbacks, and it makes sense that there's a group of people for whom it is the sensible choice.

If an augmentation is outclassed in every way by others, then why waste valuable book space on it?

As for Cram: it's a viable choice for some people, but it doesn't obsolete the others because it only goes up to +1IP.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 11 2011, 03:41 PM

Cram also improves reaction, and has a working time of 12-body hours. Unless your stunt is taking a few hours to pull off, it should help with driving, too. Also, is it not possible to stack drug effects until you hit the (augmented) maximum? That's only 30 nuyen to have 4 IPs for a few hours, if you want to risk the addiction test and the huge stun damage after it wears off (18 total). Yeah, it's not perfect, but in the short term, it might be better then the other options. It all comes down to choice.

(And really, does anyone actually need 4 IPs unless they are just trying to play the system?)

Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2011, 03:44 PM

Cram: Cheap, easy to obtain, but unreliable, very limited (no way to get more than +1 IP), and with heavy side effects. The typical no-implant solution
Wires: Moderate price, controllable, but cost a crapload of Essence and easy to detect. The typical cyberware
Synaptic Aceclerators: Friendly on the essence, easy to conceal, but costs a fortune and cannot be deactivated. The typical bioware

Now, nanoware should be expected somewhere close to the bioware: Hard to detect and easy on the Essence score, but expensive as hell and hard to get, since nanotech is still new and uncommon. But when it comes to disguises, the nanoware is actually the cheapest of all possible implants, plus it's essence-friendly and harder to detect.
And at this point it's no longer just "choice". It would be a choice if there were multiple options to choose from, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. If there is one good solution and three ways to shoot oneself in the foot, it's simply bad design. Especially if the clever choice is supposed to be the ultra-new high tech solution.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2011, 03:59 PM

Psh, Ascalaphus, show me where the grammar is wrong.

HunterHerne, if drug stacking is possible, it's banned in every game I've ever played—and thank god. The point was permanent vs. temporary, and (indeed) the crash damage.

I don't think this is a controversial point: balance (meaning trade-off choices) is the ideal, and imbalance is to be *grudgingly* tolerated when it's more trouble than it's worth to fix. To automatically scoff at anyone pointing out clear imbalance is ridiculous.

Posted by: toturi Jul 12 2011, 03:51 AM

As I understand the terms, nanotechnology and nanoware is seperate from (although related to) nanocybernetics which is a subset of cybernetics pertaining to nanotechnology.

The problem is that not everyone uses the same standards to gauge imbalance. To say that it is ridiculous when someone scoffs at someone else pointing out "clear imbalance" is in itself pretty ridiculous, IMO. In fact, it is highly unlikely that someone will scoff at someone else pointing out imbalance that he agrees with. It is only when there is a disagreement on whether something is imbalanced that this situation will arise.

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2011, 04:18 AM

Going back to sensitive system for a bit: I allow "cheap flaws" in my games, for the most part, simply because they're cheap. Sure, a mage or otaku has no intention of ever getting cyber, but this restricts them from going that direction. They might, as the character develops, discover a use for cyber, and deeply regret that they can't use it. The adept in my game is lagging behind the curve, because he has Sensitive system and won't take cyber to match the advancement of the troll samurai and the rigger. Cheap flaws shouldn't get much play, because they're supposed to only be minor inconveniences. The trouble arises when someone loads up on minor flaws; but even then, it's controllable. I don't need to harp on a character's flaws, I have enough ways of messing with them in game without needing it.

The only flaws I strongly restrict are SURGE, Incompetences, and In Debt. SURGE is too game changing for me to control, while Incompetences and In Debt have been gone over many times. I'll allow them, but only if the player can justify it to me. For example, I have a mage with Incompetence: Banishing. That's legit: it's a skill she could use, but has trouble with.

The only flaw I outright ban is Day Job. I've despised it ever since the days of SR2. It's a flaw that gives you money, and has no drawbacks. By RAW, if you "quit" your day job, you still get the monthly cash until you buy off the flaw. I'd have to force a player to spend karma on nothing but buying off that flaw, which would lead to an argument over whether or not a GM can dictate the way a character advances. I just bypass it.

As far as rules go, I've simply banned War! from my table. Even though they're getting into merc work, it's just too much power creep. Don't get me wrong, I like high powered games. But I'm not putting THOR satellites where PC's can get their hands on them.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 12 2011, 06:05 AM

They quit, they chose how they advanced. You're just enforcing their decision as per rules as written.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 12 2011, 06:19 AM

Yeah, flaws give you build points, and get bought off with karma. If you ditch the flaw, you have to pay the karma to pay it off. Although the GM might replace it with a different flaw, instead. That includes In Debt - you didn't just get some money, you got build points with it, too.

But I do appreciate that Cain simply lets players know, ahead of time, that he isn't allowing certain negative qualities. No bitching at the player, no allowing it and then pulling a bunch of passive-aggressive crap. I wish more GMs were like that.

Posted by: Irion Jul 12 2011, 07:39 AM

@Yerameyahu
Honestly, if you want to nail mage run, just change how magic loss due to ware works.
Just get back to:
If you have some ware, your magic is less potent but you still have to pay the full price to increase it.
Example mage has magic 4.
Now he gets to points of Ware and drops to 4(2) now using only a magic 2 for all his tests.
Now he is increasing his magic from 2 to 3 and pays 5*5=25Karma. (compared to the 15 Karma in the book now)
Does not sound like much here, but if said mage ends up with magic 8 in the long run his two points of ware did cost him (7+*5=75 Karma.
Thats a force 9 Power Focus! Compared to the 35 Karma in the book...

Making them all sensativ does not work, since there is a work around in the book. You just need to buy your ware with a low magic score.
Espacially in Karma Gen, there would be no reason not to start with an adept having just 3 Points of magic and dropping two for ware.
After a few runs get one point of magic and drop it again for ware. leaving you with 35 Points Karma lost for 3 Points of ware. Even if you can just use 1.5 effectiv due to the sensitivity, it is still a good deal.

I see no need to bring the low powered mages down. They can't do much anyway.
Some magic 4 or 5 mage, can't do the very bad stuff. (Well, he might stunbolt some guys, but thats about it)
Have him in some BC of 1 (which is quite common) and he has to hide behind the sam.
It is the magic 7 mage with 3 initiation you got to keep an eye on. If this guy manages to get 2 or eve 3 points of ware without a major setback in Karma you will run into problems!

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2011, 10:10 AM

Yeah, but I'd rather not have the problem. That's why I ban it. And like Glyph said, I let the players know up-front that it's banned from my games. That's also why In Debt is next on the chopping block for me, and how I handle War!. I don't care how you guys handle it at your games, it's not something I want to deal with in mine. If somebody wants something out of War!, I tell them no *before* they start making their character. It might not be totally fair, but at least it's honest.

Posted by: Irion Jul 12 2011, 10:28 AM

@Cain
It is quite the definition of fair, by the way. You tell up front and it is true for everyone. It does not get any fairer than that.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 12 2011, 10:30 AM

It sounds a little harsh, but clarity beforehand avoids a lot of grief.

Personally I'd say that given its reputation, stuff in War! is on the "no, unless" list, while in most other books it's "yes, unless". That is, I might allow something if the player can convince me that a particular thing isn't unbalanced or stupid, but that it would be cool to have.

Incompetence is the trickiest NQ I think. I only allow it if the Incompetence is for a skill that you can reasonably expect the character to want to use from time to time. Pilot Ground Vehicle is usually OK; Pilot Aircraft wouldn't be, for most characters (but would be for a rigger).

Posted by: ElFenrir Jul 12 2011, 10:44 AM

Now, I allow SURGE(as we all do really at the table unless the game itself dictates), but I can understand why people ban this. However-did you find it easier, I take it, to just flat-out ban SURGE than to cherrypick the ''Not So Gamechanging'' ones? For example-Claws, Horns or Fangs can be gotten via cyberware, Satyr Legs can be gotten if you play a Satyr/get the Kid Stealth legs. and I don't see that being too gamechangy(granted, Kid Stealth cyberlegs can be swapped out for normal ones if needed, and Satyrs are kinda rare-of course some folks ban the metavariants which is also understandable) but glow-in-the-dark Ganesha characters would likely get a huge ''WTF''.

I do like your method though-just tell it up front, and those flaws you banned are all really understandable(I actually have gotten use out of Day Job before but I do totally get that it's one of those can-of-worm flaws that can cause problems, and the positives-being able to get a decent story out of it sometimes-don't outweigh the negatives.)

And yeah-Incompetence is rough to handle, but can be good if used well. It's also quite game-dependent; Incompetence: Swimming wouldn't work in a total dry land campaign but could damn well be crippling in a pirate campaign. It can either not come up at all-or be actually over-crippling, all for the same amount of points. Sometimes it can actually be kinda fun(A few years back, when we made the Mystery Men using Shadowrun rules on this board in a fun thread, I made Mr. Furious and gave him Incompetent: Intimidation. It fit. )

Posted by: Mäx Jul 12 2011, 12:07 PM

Have you considered just ruling that In Debt doesn't count as a negative quality but can be still be taken to get some extra money in chargen that you have to pay back in game.
That's the way i would handle it(and if i ever find a GM, how i will try to convince him/her to handle it) as it has quite solid rules for getting loan money in chargen, it just doesn't make sense that you get Build Points too.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 12 2011, 12:33 PM

BP for stuff that's very easily gained or lost during play (jobs, debts) are awkward game design. I think the more permanent qualities (Lucky, Scorched) make much more sense. They also feel like they're more innate to the character, not external like Day Job or Debt.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 12 2011, 02:51 PM

If their qualities change (debt is paid off, fired from job, etc) simply replace them with new negative qualities. Maybe an old coworker gets spiteful and turns evidence to the police (Wanted) or a corp (enemy) showing the character doing some illegal running activity. Maybe they develop a gambling habit, or a distant relative dies leaving them as the only one to care for a neice, cousin, or grandparent. Its easy to find negative qualities that would pop up after character creation, and simple to use these to replace old qualities that no longer apply.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 12 2011, 03:30 PM

I don't like that. If you resolved some IC thing through play, you shouldn't also have to pay karma to get rid of it.

For example, Debt: what that amounts to is basically this -
1) You have an actual debt, which you got money for during CharGen.
2) You have a mysterious negative quality; if you were to pay off (1), then it'd suddenly turn into an actual NQ. So not clearing (1) is better than clearing (1) and not paying the karma.

Also, suppose you took a loan with someone during the game; would you suddenly get NQ:Debt? Do you get Karma for that? Or does taking a loan mean you basically lose karma in the long run?


It's clunky.. I prefer qualities to be permanent traits of the character, not circumstances that can quickly change, all the while having karma consequences.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 12 2011, 04:01 PM

There's also the alternate interpretation of "1 BP = 5000 nuyen" in the case of the debt. Pay it off, then you've already paid the cost for it, leaving time for hookers and ice cream! But quitting a day job, you lose the income AND the drain on your time, and depending on when and how you quit, it may make you a suspicious person, or bring down other negative repercussions (tainting your real or fake SIN).

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 12 2011, 04:40 PM

Maybe things like Debts, Day Jobs, SINs and such would have been better handled by treating them as an exotic form of equipment, like Lifestyle.

Posted by: Cain Jul 13 2011, 02:55 AM

For me, I restrict them because it's easier. I don't exactly ban SURGE, I just need a very good reason before I allow it. So far, I haven't encountered one, but I do leave the door open. My players do know to not touch that section of RC without asking me first, so it works out. Incompetence is the same way: if there's a valid reason for it, and it's a reasonable limitation, I'll allow it. For example, the mage with Incompetence: Banishing. Banishing is really a useless skill, and the character would probably never use it anyway. But it does prevent the Pokemon trick, as well as several other cheese moves.


Again, I don't do that because it's easier to ban it than rejigger it. If a player absolutely needed more money for chargen, I'd already be worried about a potentially game-breaking character. I'm willing to work with players if it's not unreasonable, but I can't think of many unbroken character types that need more than 250,000 nuyen. And if they did have a good case for why they couldn't shave off a few pieces of gear here and there, I might even bend the rules and allow them to spend more BP on cash. In Debt, as it stands, has too many problems for me to really allow it, and there's ways of doing what you suggest without involving it.


If a player is cheesy enough to blow off a flaw like that, there's no reason why they won't do it again. I could slap them with increasingly severe flaws, but that becomes very punitive after a certain point. Really, it's better to avoid the whole mess than risk an escalation like that. That's the other reason I'm up-front about what I allow and what I don't: it warns me of potential problem players. If I say no, and they fight for it anyway, I know I have a possible problem brewing.

As for War!, my players knew it was trouble when one guy pointed to the PDF and said: "What's in that book?" The look on my face was probably priceless.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jul 13 2011, 10:22 AM

The correct answer here is "a book of stuff for the GM for when the players epically fail".

Posted by: toturi Jul 13 2011, 11:31 AM

Corrected your answer.

Posted by: Mäx Jul 13 2011, 11:44 AM

Well "need" is such a subjective think, for example my combat face character Sasha, has about 320k worth of stuff and i really wouldn't call her broken(even thought she's about 1000 karma character in the errated karmagen), atleast not on the gear front, some people might cry wolf as she's a Dryad. She only throws 10-18 dice with all non exotic weapons and 11-16 dice for social skills.
Ofource if forced by GM i could easily drop that to below 300K by ditching some of the fluff ware she has, most likely even to under 250k , as it's not absolutely necessary to have 12 guns at the start of the game

Posted by: Cain Jul 13 2011, 09:54 PM

To be honest, I've been around Dumpshock too long; every time I see a dryad face, a pornomancer alert goes off in the back of my mind. But seriously, I've built enough characters to know that you can do a lot with the starting 250,000 nuyen. I can build very nasty street samurai with that budget, so a player would have to show me why they can't get what they want within budget. I'm willing to listen, and I'm even willing to work with the player if they have a good reason. But rather than add a problematic flaw to give them cash, I'd probably bend the rule that says you can only spent 50 BP on resources. I honestly think it's much easier.

Here's two hypothetical examples. Bob the troll's sheet lands in front of me, and he's overspent on cyberware. He's got everything alphawared, and is somewhere around .01 Essence. The player wants to take In Debt so he can afford everything. I'm probably going to say no, simply because the troll is nasty enough with everything at standard grade; he won't need that much, even in my high-powered games. Then, I read the sheet for Jane the Weapon Specialist. She's well cybered too, but she's got an interesting backstory as the child of survivalists, is something of a gun nut, and likes to collect weapons. She's got every gun in the books in her collection: not because she plans on carrying them all at once, but because she's a collector. She wants a few thousand more nuyen to finsh her collection with the rest of the starting-legal guns. I'm more apt to say yes in this case, as the amounts are smaller; and rather than saddle her with a flaw that's hard to handle, I'll let her spend 1-5 more BP on resources.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 13 2011, 09:58 PM

If you really need more cash, there is the positive quality, Born Rich. It's effectively 2 BP per 5000Y that way (in addition to using up 10 quality points), but it's there.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 14 2011, 01:57 AM

I don't like the name of the quality, because I see resources as representing things that don't necessarily translate to wealth, even though you purchase them with your starting resources. Your street samurai with over 200K in 'ware might not have ever had 200,000 in cold, hard cash in hand, for example.

I do like the quality itself, though. I see it as the equivalent of exceptional Attribute or aptitude, only applied to resources. Along with the restricted gear quality, they make street samurai a bit more competitive with bioware-enhanced adepts.

Posted by: DMiller Jul 14 2011, 04:14 AM

Man I'm old. I remember my first Street Sam starting with 1,000,000Y. Of course that was SR (first edition) and the priority based creation system (the only one available at the time).

-D

Posted by: Midas Jul 14 2011, 07:19 AM

Had a mage with Incompetent: Pilot Ground Vehicle a while back. From his backstory, his mother got gunned down in front of him during a mafia wars shootout in Chicago in the '50's, and this trauma was the reason for his incompetence. Admittedly as a mage he was more likely to use levitate and air spirit movement power to get places, but the way I played it he was distracted just being in a car, and I voluntarily took a -2 to all actions if he was in a car when the lead was flying.

As a GM, I want a backstory reason for an Incompetence, so Incompetence: Pilot Aerospace is out unless you take at least a point in the skill and have a trauma in your backstory to go with it.

As for other NQ, I tend to ban most RC NQ out of hand. Things like Enemy (for a runner to survive to the point of CG, they gotta have a few at least anyways) and Day Job are out. I will allow In Debt and won't require PC's to buy the debt off with karma as well as cash, but warn players that the people coming collecting are like the Sopranos. Until that debt is repayed, the mafia/yakuza/whatever goons will hassle the PC on a regular basis, and while they might know better than to slap a shadowrunner around, they won't be past trashing their apartments or taking that nice shiny assault rifle toy as a down payment. Should the PC be stupid enough to fight back, they will find themselves invited to meet the mafia boss and told that any further assault on any of his employees will not be tolerated, and that the assaultee's medical bills and a gratuity has been added to their debt. In other words, what they don't pay in karma they pay big time in inconvenience until the debt plus loan shark interest is fully repayed.

Posted by: Medicineman Jul 14 2011, 07:28 AM

I have 2 Gnome Chars and 2 Hobbits.
All of them have Incompetence Heavy Weapons because of their physical Built

with a small Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 14 2011, 08:27 AM

Well, I see almost every PC mage/mystic adept in my games with Incompetence(Banishing/Ritual Spellcasting). So yeah, I guess those skills must be of limited value to PCs.

Posted by: Cain Jul 14 2011, 08:47 AM

Banishing is a pretty useless skill to begin with, so it's mildly cheesy to take an Incompetence in it. But it's also fair, because the skill does have some use.

I restrict Incompetences, but not especially harshly. I prefer a backstory reason, but I'll accept a good mechanical one as well. I personally don't like the "group incompetences"-- Infirm, Uncouth, and Uneducated-- because they're too much drain for not enough gain, especially when compared to multiple Incompetences. Usually, I draw the line at multiple Incomptences, although there are exceptions. For example, I was considering an ex-Drill Sargent who had Incompetence: Etiquette, Con, and Negotiation, but had a high Leadership. That actually made sense to me.

Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 14 2011, 08:49 AM

True enough. I especially dislike that Uncouth applies to Intimidate.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 14 2011, 09:38 AM

Wouldn't Etiquette also cover proper salutes and forms of address towards superior officers?

Posted by: suoq Jul 14 2011, 10:03 AM

I see that as a job duty, not a social nicety, and therefore I'd tuck it under knowledge skills. There's a fine line. The ability to convince someone you're an officer is Con, so while part of that may be saluting properly, the overall task is con. If you're getting to the specific point of "proper salutes and forms of address" that sounds either academic or professional to me.

Posted by: Faraday Jul 14 2011, 10:23 AM

Either Etiquette with military specialization, or a knowledge skill.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 14 2011, 10:52 AM

Eh. "Fitting in" is generally an Etiquette thing, and the military does go a lot for that. Actually getting promoted beyond Cannon Fodder duty gets a lot harder if you're an antisocial twerp with an Incompetence: Etiquette, too.

Posted by: Cain Jul 14 2011, 12:06 PM

Well, part of the story I was designing was that he was eventually kicked out for making inappropriate comments about an officer's wife. He was a very good drill instructor, and that's why he kept his job so long. He never got promoted to officer status because he was too brusque off the training field; and like most sargents, he viewed officers as too removed from the action. In his mind, him and the boys were the ones doing the real work. I can just picture it now: "Did you just call me sir?! Do I look like an officer to you, boy? I WORK FOR A LIVING!!"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 14 2011, 01:52 PM

Well... MOST enlisted never, ever see Officer Rank, nor would they want to (So not being promoted from Sergeant to Officer is a perk). There is a Sharp divide between Enlisted ranks and Officer ranks, at least in the American Military. And I have often seen Senior NCO's with more pull and Leadership ability than the Officers around them.

NCO's lead, Officers "supervise".

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 14 2011, 03:31 PM

I have noticed it depends on the age of the soldier, assuming one has a choice.

When you start pushing your 40s or 50s, that officer position with the cushy office starts looking more attractive. Either that or retirement.

Really, though, most don't get that choice. To get offered an officer position from enlisted ranks isn't that common. The US military at least seems to prefer officers drawn from colleges going straight to OCS.



-k

Posted by: suoq Jul 14 2011, 05:00 PM

It's more of a time in grade thing. If you join with no college education, it's reasonable to complete your degree in about 8 years of service while an officer may have 4 years paid for by the military and then serve 4 years. To the outside world, it's not much of a difference at that point. 8 years in, if an enlisted person completes their degree and decides to become an O1, they have plenty of time in Service points, but otherwise they're with all the fresh out of college O1s for time in grade. So, while promotions will come faster, due to time in service, they're already 8 years behind the bell curve and it shows. They have 12 years to get to a place that their competition is looking to get to in 20.

One thing officers learn, often slowly, is that there isn't a shortage of enlisted men with more and better degrees than the officers have in some fields. It is (or at least was) even advantageous for someone with a degree to join the military as an enlisted personnel if they wanted to work on their Masters/Doctorate and only serve 4 years. Offutt AFB (SAC/Stratcom) had no shortage of enlisted programmers with college degrees and officers who thought they had more education were often in for surprises.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 14 2011, 06:22 PM

You need to use our houserule... Banishing can be used to counter spirit powers. Honestly, why should spirit powers get to bypass a Mages ability to block magic? It really injects usefulness into an otherwise lameass skill, and balances out the constant Fear spamming air spirits tend to do.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2011, 06:25 PM

Ooh. That's interesting, DamienKnight.

Posted by: Cain Jul 15 2011, 02:27 AM

That is interesting. It'd give the skill some use. You used to be able to do the Pokemon trick, but I believe that's been errata'd out. I suppose you could use for a Materialization tradition to get a Possession spirit, presuming it's of the same type, but that's still risky and questionable.

Honestly, though, as written it's pretty worthless. The last time I saw it used, it was flat-out suicidal: a Mystic Adept (effective Banishing Magic: 3) tried to banish a Force 10 master Shedim. Even with a very good roll, he not only failed, he died in the attempt and it took him burning a point of Edge to survive.

Posted by: Ryu Jul 15 2011, 04:20 PM

That is a very nice-sounding change. I will try to convince the group.

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 15 2011, 04:48 PM

So how does this work? Does the mage provide an umbrella of dicepool to his teammates the way Counterspelling does for spells? Do you have to use Banishing to counter the effect separately on each individual?

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 16 2011, 02:50 PM

I am intrigued by this and curious to know as well.

Posted by: Juno Nov 14 2011, 10:21 PM

I went looking for clarification on the jigsaw skull and didn't find any http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3770.0. Would love to hear if anyone else came across an errata ruling for it.

It seems rather unbelievable that it isn't a restricted or forbidden type of cyberware to me (I could understand a mundane undercover detective looking to make himself a career consider getting when he has to compete with adepts on the force, but there's no way they'd be happy to let every mundane organised criminal look completely identical. The PR offensive would be as murderous as the barrens).

Also, making it cost extra so it eats up more essense and is harder to source? For the extra money, betaware or deltaware never looked more enticing. Especially so it doesn't look quite so screamingly obvious on those occasions that a shadowrunner might be trying to use a disguise to infiltrate a building with a MAD scanner security checkpoint. That 15,000 nuyen for a skull would buy 30 days of nanopaste and maybe avoid Negative Quality: Addiction to Painkillers too.

I think for an effective house rule, you'd need to make it a tailored bioware aug, with some form unique advantage that nanopaste can't offer to justify its use, beyond its >24 hour effectiveness and Scooby-Doo-moment-of-unveiling. Perhaps a defence against kinesics that justifies it having a legitimate existence to high stakes negotiators, poker players, human lie detectors, people who have to talk to human lie detectors?

Perhaps even add in a rating 1 or 2 skull into A or AA corps' profession poker, chess or chess boxing package, (or vanity boxing demographic package? Product endorsements + fame), since really you're just trying to stop spending money on nanopaste like its orichalcum coated novacoke. Or printer ink.

EDIT: Sorry trimming this a bit. This is a bit tangental/derailing, even as it stands..

Posted by: Sengir Nov 15 2011, 11:51 PM

Recently read the entry again and figured out that probably "remodel your face in 2 minutes" and "rapidly remodel your face" mean the same thing, not one "rapid" and one "in two minutes" option. That still leaves the question of what the rules effect of this thing actually is.

Posted by: Saint Hallow Nov 16 2011, 05:18 AM

I can see in a game which is gritty & bloody that Sensitive System makes a good choice. Because in those games, loss of organs, limbs, etc... is possible & finding a good, trustworthy street doc takes time & money. The cost of the bioware you're trying to buy is super exorbitant for a runner. So a runner is stuck with opting for a cheaper replacement... hence cyberware, which hurts their essence.

Posted by: Irion Nov 16 2011, 07:07 AM

If you do not use cyberware it is kind of a bigger drawback than using cyberware for double essence costs...
So if you take the disadvantage of double essence costs and decide not to use, you are actually upping your drawback.
(Yes, you could use cyber and not use bio, which would be even worse. But is that really an argument here?)

Sensitiv system is a only mechanical disadvantage, so there is actually no way to get around the drawback. So I really can't see the problem...

Posted by: Borbag Nov 16 2011, 02:16 PM

The way I see it, a character would not get any cyberware because his/her system is sensitive. So it wouldn't work like "I don't plan to use cyberware, so I'll just make my body more sensitive". However, sensitive system means the character is more difficult to heal than others, which translates to negative dice on first-aid/medicine tests, or it just takes longer to heal. Adding allergy to silicon or metal would be a nice fluff material.
Same with pacifism. You are against killing people. Light version is not against hurting people; hell he may be fine with his teammates making a bloodbath. He just doesn't "dirty" himself by taking a life. If he ever does, it will be a huge burden on his conscience. However, in cyberpunk games people tend to leave their morals at the door (including me), which makes pacifist characters rare.

Also, I don't think that runners have the habit of acquiring weapons and other gear through legal channels because of data trail. They just have to hide Forbidden equipment even better, and forbidden stuff is just harder to find or expensive to find.
So when do runners buy licenses? When they pose as "security consultants"
Food for thought

Posted by: Irion Nov 16 2011, 03:19 PM

Actually Shadowrun is one of the few games where pacifist is a usefull (in the way of "fun to play", making the game richer) flaw.
In some games it is just a bunch of points you are getting for free. Never hurt a living thing, does not do much in games where you mostly fight deamons or the like. (Or a spell is enough to take a human out of combat without hurting him... Of course no chance to resist)

On the other hand Games where XP are gained by killing stuff....

In Shadowrun it "just" limits your possible ways to achieve a goal. It makes you think...