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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Capsule Rounds+DMSO+Liquid Nitrogen
Posted by: AKWeaponsSpecialist Jul 7 2011, 12:16 AM
Hey everybody. It's been a while since I've been on Dumpshock, but I couldn't stay away from y'all for long. Just a couple questions:
1) Are there stats for liquid nitrogen?
1a) If so, what are they?
2) What happens when it inters the (relatively) hot bloodstream of a metahuman? Does it freeze the area around it? Vaporize explosively? Both?
2a) Also, if applicable, does it snap-freeze armor that it doesn't penetrate?
Any help here would be awesome.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2011, 12:32 AM
It actually takes a little time for exposure to liquid nitrogen to freeze flesh. You can actually plunge your hand into LN and suffer no lasting effects, as long as you pull it out quickly.
I would imagine a LN bullet would cause some momentary pain from the intense cold, but I think the tiny amount of LN that could fit into a bullet would have evaporated before it can cause a heck of a lot of freezing damage. Perhaps some localized frostbite.
Splashing across armor you might get a nice burst of nitrogen mist as it evaporates but not much else.
Hollywood, as always, makes LN out to be a lot more dramatic than it really is.
-k
Posted by: Halflife Jul 7 2011, 12:37 AM
Indeed, the most likely source of damage from a LN bullet would be from the shrapnel of your own gun as it explodes from the sudden increase in pressure of the nitrogen turning to a gas in the chamber of your gun.
The most effective way to use LN as a weapon is through injection or ingestion. A very small amount will expand to ridiculous volumes and cause rupture of internal organs, the bends, and severe nausea and discomfort for at least a day if they survive.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2011, 12:44 AM
There's an old science trick that many schools now ban where a professor would take a tiny swig of LN and blow nitrogen mist out his nose.
The trick is that you do NOT EVER swallow the stuff, just hold it in your mouth and let the vaporizing gas escape out your nose.
One guy misremembered how the trick was done, swallowed, and ended up in the hospital with cold burns all down his esophagus and stomach. So don't try this at home.
-k
Posted by: Halflife Jul 7 2011, 01:23 AM
The trick is that you do NOT EVER swallow the stuff, just hold it in your mouth and let the vaporizing gas escape out your nose.
One guy misremembered how the trick was done, swallowed, and ended up in the hospital with cold burns all down his esophagus and stomach. So don't try this at home.
We actually still do this trick where I went to high school (last I checked) and I like to do it to impress the kids ;p. One of my colleagues says he swallowed just the tiniest bit one time, and said it gave him indigestion that he still has nightmares about.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 01:28 AM
In conclusion… no. 
DMSO wouldn't do anything, because liquid nitrogen isn't a toxin or bio agent. Capsule rounds are almost certainly unable to contain liquid nitrogen, as well, especially (as Halflife mentioned) do it safely. You could probably find some kind of industrial 'freeze-thrower' (I guess?), but it'd be a makeshift weapon at best, like attacking someone with the mono-chainsaw.
Posted by: Erik Baird Jul 7 2011, 01:32 AM
How's the character gonna keep the liquid nitrogen cold, anyways? It ain't gonna stay liquid outside of a freezer for very long.
Posted by: AKWeaponsSpecialist Jul 7 2011, 01:36 AM
Alternate possibility: Liquid projector (like a flamethrower)? Now, considering that it'd be making contact with the air pretty much immediately, it'd have to be a stealth weapon, right? Range being supremely short (like video game flamethrowers)? Any idea what kind of materials would be required for such a weapon? Actually, I don't think chemsniffers would be after nitrogen on its own, so if it was pistol-to-SMG sized, it could prove to be a good wetwork tool, if it can be made with ceramic parts >.> <.<
Posted by: Halflife Jul 7 2011, 01:45 AM
To have some sort of Nitrogen Thrower, you would need a sealed dewar backpack (think WWII flamethrower) and a nozzle capable of projecting enough liquid at a high enough speed to hit a target several yards away before the nitrogen managed to vaporize (WWII flamethrower again). The main problem, such a device would be 1) Not concealable 2) Extremely heavy 3) Not really good at killing.
If you wanted to utilize it as a small scale wetwork weapon I would suggest a small, sealed injection weapon of some kind with a safety release to let off excess pressure that was outfitted with the most intense cold protection that still allowed it to function. You would be correct that a chemsniffer would never detect it (Nitrogen makes up 70% of the atmosphere) but you could deal almost as much damage with a small hypodermic needle full of air that you injected into a target and caused to have an embolism.
Posted by: Erik Baird Jul 7 2011, 02:07 AM
An LN2 sprayer could work, but it would be impractical and less effective than a more conventional compound. I can maybe see an open tank of LN2 as a hazard in some manufacturing plant (don't fall in!), but even that would be kinda implausible. Otherwise, I just don't see it being used as a weapon in any practical way. The biggest hazard from a portable tank of the stuff would probably be suffocation if the LN2 was used to fill a small room (cell, bedroom, storage closet...); CO2 would work just as well, and be cheaper and easier to get.
Dunno if you looked this up, but here's some info from Wiki:
Liquid nitrogen can easily be converted to the solid by placing it in a vacuum chamber pumped by a rotary vacuum pump.[2] Liquid nitrogen freezes at 63 K (−210 °C; −346 °F). Despite its reputation, liquid nitrogen's efficiency as a coolant is limited by the fact that it boils immediately on contact with a warmer object, enveloping the object in insulating nitrogen gas. This effect, known as the Leidenfrost effect, applies to any liquid in contact with an object significantly hotter than its boiling point. More rapid cooling may be obtained by plunging an object into a slush of liquid and solid nitrogen than into liquid nitrogen alone.
Since the liquid to gas expansion ratio of nitrogen is 1:694 at 20C, a tremendous amount of force can be generated if liquid nitrogen is rapidly vaporized. In an incident in 2006 at Texas A&M University, the pressure-relief devices of a tank of liquid nitrogen were malfunctioning and later sealed. As a result of the subsequent pressure buildup, the tank failed catastrophically and exploded. The force of the explosion was sufficient to propel the tank through the ceiling immediately above it.[6]
Because of its extremely low temperature, careless handling of liquid nitrogen may result in cold burns.
As liquid nitrogen evaporates it will reduce the oxygen concentration in the air and might act as an asphyxiant, especially in confined spaces. Nitrogen is odorless, colorless and tasteless, and may produce asphyxia without any sensation or prior warning.[7] A laboratory assistant died in Scotland in 1999, apparently from asphyxiation, possibly caused by liquid nitrogen spilled in a basement storage room.[8]
Posted by: Gerzel Jul 7 2011, 02:40 AM
Indeed, the best you can do w/ liquid nitrogen is weapon of opportunity and even then the canister it comes in is probably the better choice.
Posted by: Loch Jul 7 2011, 03:53 AM
I'm honestly surprised nobody's mentioned the Super Squirt yet. With some (admittedly hefty) modification, I think it could work as a smaller, more concealable version of Halflife's proposed "Eiswerfer" contraption.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 03:55 AM
I assume it's because it's (indeed) massive modifications. That was my reason, anyway. The Super Squirt (and all similar items) are for roughly room temperature, non-caustic liquids.
Posted by: Erik Baird Jul 7 2011, 03:58 AM
I thought about that at first, but then I realized you still have to keep the nitrogen cold. Then I looked up the Wiki to see just how cold. -196C at 1 atm is pretty cold. 
Posted by: Headshot_Joe Jul 7 2011, 04:22 AM
So we've gone from freeze bullets to the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pxjnl1yuXk's ice cube system?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 04:25 AM
Yup, except it just suffocates. No ice. :/ The Zorg is the perfect context for this: it has a dozen superfluous silly gadgets (like freezing), when all you need are bullets.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2011, 08:19 PM
And a little red button.
-k
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:44 PM
-k
of which a Real Warrior would have inquired.
Posted by: capt.pantsless Jul 7 2011, 09:14 PM
Well, you could just pressurize it in tiny little bullet-sized pressure-drums. Sorta like little propane-tanks.
That said, it's not really a great weapon. If you can squirt LN at someone, you could just hose them down with narcojet. Against some sort of special enemy like a fire-spirit, I'd give LN a huge damage boost, but against a regular old armored human, there's way better things to shoot at them - such as high explosives.
That's not to say LN or other cyrogenic stuff might have some interesting uses for shadowrunners, freezing locks for one thing. You could use it to suffocate guards that are in a sealed environment, since Nitrogen isn't toxic and is 70% of the atmosphere already, Mr. Johnson's limo might not detect that it's occupants are under attack. Not to mention that it's not exactly the most traceable thing, as it's the lack of oxygen that kills you, not the nitrogen.
Posted by: Erik Baird Jul 7 2011, 09:39 PM
I agree completely. That's not quite where my train of thought went, but I was thinking along the same lines.
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