Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 7 2011, 11:17 AM

Been thinking about RFID clusters for awhile and presuming you use some of the higher end RFIDS (Sensor, Security) it should be fairly easy to get a Processor Limit of 100+, then use replicating worms and Optimized programs to get a ton of agents working off the cluster. I'm wondering if anybody has done this before and what their experiences were like.

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 7 2011, 11:49 AM

While it's a nice idea to hide viruses in plain sight the main problem with this is that you'd have every single tag being active for that. Which would mean you'd have to stack them near a source of radio frequency emission. That would get them being pretty obvious.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 01:50 PM

I'd just say RFIDs can't do that stuff. Too small, too special, etc.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 02:38 PM

seconded. You're better off using an RFID grenade to toss up AR advertising in a cluster to impede pursuit.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 02:55 PM

If you want massive computing power, just use nexi and commlinks.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 03:50 PM

And how, exactly, do you see that impeding pursuit. Passive and Hidden Modes would completely ignore such things.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 7 2011, 04:38 PM

Also Firewall 6 might block out some of that shit... it is an unwanted intrusion into your system.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 07:10 PM

Toss it up in a crowded/spammed area to cause a commotion, not in the middle of a factory. Not all work takes place in the middle of a secluded underground facility, after all. If you have the access codes for the pursuit's secure frequency/channel, you should be able to program that into the AR projection on the RFIDs, after all (the higher quality would be better). This falls under the scope of "The enemy isn't perfect."

If the enemy IS perfect, and knows everything your characters have already planned in impenetrably secure locations, then you need a new GM or to tell him to back off of the omniscience. If not, then you're not playing a game, per se, so much as your GM's ego.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 08:43 PM

It has nothing to do with being Perfect, Rubic. It has to do with natural precautions that a Runner takes, let alone a Corporation in a Remote, Secure Facility. I would not plan my defenses for a game based on what a player would do to circumvent them. I would plan my defenses based upon the knowledge of the security chief/team, and the budget that comes with the facilitry in question.

As far as the AR Grenade/Bomb goes... that is just a waste of time for most, if not all, situations. Viral AR Spam exists in Shadowrun, and it is not generally an issue for serious 'Runners, and only a minor annoyance for the less experienced 'Runners

Posted by: Rubic Jul 7 2011, 09:50 PM

This does not mean it isn't a trouble for somebody who is not expecting it, in, say, downtown Seattle, on his way home from work. It could provide a crucial distraction while a person is yoinked inside a building or to set up an assassination. Have the hacker create a viral ad that bypasses filters (could be as easy as misrepresenting the ad's type), and you suddenly have an opportunity to shove a needle in that manager's neck or a knife in his side.

Other uses, bombard a gang territory with fake news that another gang has pulled one over on them/stepped on their turf, etc. More a matter of creativity. It'd never work if somebody was expecting it, or if they were in the middle of a secured facility. Note, I did say that in my prior post.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 09:58 PM

Perhaps... Perhaps not. I see AR/Viral Spam as nothing more than a nuissance, and often not even that. Even today, with the sometimes hundreds of email spam I get, It has absolutely no impact. It is totally ignored. I see this as being more common than you do apparently. Probably has a lot to do with my non-use of Portable communications devices. They are just a fad, after all. They will eventually go away.

But I will say that it could have an impact on the unsuspecting. I just do not see many as being that unsuspecting, since it is so ubiquitous in the 2070's.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 10:01 PM

The book implies (at least) that spam is a potentially significant issue in SR4. *shrug*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 7 2011, 10:51 PM

Which can be easily circumvented by switching to passive mode (when available).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 7 2011, 10:54 PM

So? That's not the same as "nothing more than a nuissance, and often not even that". We know that spam is an issue in 2070. Not an overwhelming one, but not a non-issue either.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 7 2011, 11:56 PM

Unless the person has that negative quality where they can`t tell the difference between AR and reality... or AIPS.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 12:49 AM

And how does that even qualify as a Nuissance? I mean really, I have a Public Comlink that is on, but the feeds are disabled, so I never see them (Kind of like Voice Mail and Cell Phones today). I have a Running Comlink that is in Passive or Hidden Mode. How, exactly, am I affected by that notorious spam you keep talking about?

Oh, wait... I'm not...

Less than A Nuissance, as it never actually comes into play, unless I want it to.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 12:50 AM

Except we know that it's *not* "Less than A Nuissance", by definition. The book tells us it's significant. No one's talking about your character.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 01:11 AM

You miss the point... It is not MY character. It is ALL Shadowrunners. To COMPLETELY avoid Viral AR Spam, all you need do is run your 'Runner 'Links in Passive or Hidden Mode, and then completely ignore anything from your civilian 'Link. Why is that so hard to understand?

Is it a problem for average Joe Wageslave? Most Likely. 'Runners are not Average Joe Wageslave.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 01:18 AM

That's what I said: we're not talking about shadowrunners. Shadowrunners are the ones *doing* it.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 01:22 AM

I still like my idea of a RAID-∞ memory system made up of a tremendous number of RFID tags.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 02:11 AM

Yes, to other Shadowrunners or Corporate Security (or Corporate Secuity Protected Targets), who are going to know the exact same tricks of the Trade as you do. Who cares if you do it to Joe Wageslave, he is totally insignificant in 99.99% of the cases.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 02:17 AM

*shrug* I wasn't aware we were talking about corpsec. Didn't he say 'chased by gangers'? Sorry.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 8 2011, 02:29 AM

I'll see you your RFID Raids, and raise you some Smartgrenade Clusters.

For when you need Really, REALLY deniable computing resources.

... pretty sure they have better matrix stats too.

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 03:12 AM

I must be missing something here. Someone help me.

1) We're talking an AR grenade here, correct?
2) Which requires either hacking a bunch of commlinks (in which case you don't need the AR grenande) or the commlinks set on active.
3) And requires an active visual PAN (cybereyes, goggles, glasses, contacts) being used by the pursuers.

The pursuers, whomever they are, are chasing someone while their active commlinks are displaying everything including the ads coming in though their visual PAN.

This doesn't fall under "The enemy isn't perfect." This falls under "The enemy is incompetent".

Whatever happened to flashbangs?

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 8 2011, 03:38 AM

So this isn't to directly affect other 'runners, or pursuers, or whoever. It's to cause a "scene" in a crowded area with many normal people who are likely to be affected by the AR spam.

As far as this goes, seems like it could be sorta effective, maybe more subtle than a flashbang, esp. since the pursuers will be blocking the "grenade's" effects and won't know why everyone around them is suddenly spazzing out...

Posted by: TheOOB Jul 8 2011, 08:47 AM

Isn't this what the orgy spell is for.

But seriously, this would be good to make a distraction in a group, but it's not going to stop a serious pursuer. Even if they practice bad cyber security the worst thing it does is screw up their smart-link(unless they are using a DNI)

Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 11:43 AM

Again, I'm missing something. Someone describe what they see so I can understand why they're not ignoring it, annoyed by it, or distracted (standing still) by it. What kind of AR makes large groups of people (wageslaves for example) suddenly spazz out.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 01:27 PM

Oh, I see, you're saying gangers are stupid... Got it...
That's Okay, one of the guys in our group thinks the same thing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 01:28 PM

Heh... Glad to see someone in agreeance (yes, I know) with me...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 02:08 PM

Gangers *are* stupid. They're the slimes of SR.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 02:45 PM

You and John would get along great...
I bet that you shamelessly use Gangers to distract the Authorities as well...
I know John would rather use them as Target Practice rather than look at them.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 8 2011, 03:04 PM

I mean, off the top of my head, maybe a huge 99% sale at a popular store...or an announcement that there's a fire / dangerous criminal / something nearby, and that people should move in an orderly fashion to the nearest safe place....or an announcement that a popular singer / trid-star is signing autographs nearby...if they're wageslaves, maybe something about a corporate contest for people who find x amount of some item nearby...

I'm not saying all of these ideas are 100% winners, but c'mon, use your imagination a little....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 03:19 PM

Because Oh So Many people FLOCK to the Blue Light Special when it is announced...

Posted by: Rubic Jul 8 2011, 03:31 PM

Precisely. An RFID grenade would have to be something you thought up ahead of time. How many runners use such a piece of rubbish, after all? Why protect against it? Hell, use it before you're even pursued, and you may even be able to score some extra nuyen for advertising.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 8 2011, 03:33 PM

If people didn't have unpredictably sheepish responses, then flash mobs would never work. The desire to be in on something exclusive, or to be the first to take advantage of a sale, or whatnot... any of these impulses can work in your favor in some way, and there are some areas where you HAVE to have your commlink on active.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 03:53 PM

There is a Difference between coordinating a Flash Mob (and yes, they do take a bit of coordination, as they are not immediate), and announcing the current Blue Light Special (which is).

Posted by: Rubic Jul 8 2011, 04:27 PM

You're relying on the same drive to do either, just with less planning and, thus, a greater possibility of failure if you didn't plan for it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 04:45 PM

Perhaps... but no worries...

Posted by: Rubic Jul 8 2011, 05:06 PM

I'm not saying it's a certainty, nothing really is. However, as part of something bigger, it's a viable tool, especially when front-loaded before the rest of the stuff you pull.

Posted by: Cheops Jul 8 2011, 05:17 PM

RFID tag necklace with a radio on the clasp. Seems like an appropriate accessory for a cyberpunk hacker. Especially get some of different colors and you can make patterns.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 9 2011, 10:17 AM

Have you missed the multiple instances of people getting injured, even CRUSHED TO DEATH, at wal-mart during black Friday sales or whatever it's called? If you have missed them, it's scary reading. People in Beijing were so mob-y they broke glass windows in the Apple store when the iPad2 came out and several people got cut up. I think people are willing to flock, stupidly, if there's a sale or desired item being offered. Reality seems to agree with me, unfortunately

These are wage-slaves / common people we were talking about. A certain level of "mob" mentality was assumed, but hey, in your game, maybe that doesn't happen. It's cool, but I hope you can imagine it could happen in other games?

Posted by: suoq Jul 9 2011, 06:13 PM

Yes. And they planned to be there far in advance. Black friday sales and apple store openings require entire populations being informed of the event in order to get enough people to form a decent sized mob.

"Lines for the popular iPad 2 have grown so long that people have begun selling their places in the queue, while a secondary market has also developed with consumers reselling their tablet computers for profit after leaving the store, the report said." gives us an idea of how many people are in such a mob. On the other hand, Beijing has 14,930,000 people in it. So if you want almost 1500 people in line all you need to do is attract 1/100 of a percent of people.

Lets pretend you have a AR grenade two orders of magnitude better than a new iPad 2. That will affect 1 out of every 100 people within the radius of the grenade. You're better off with a device that fires a clip of caseless blanks.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 9 2011, 06:54 PM

But for the RFID grenade, you don't need a mob-crush, just to get people moving a certain way or focusing away from a certain direction. It'd be low-suspicion, since advertising stunts, no doubt, are not unheard of, and it would draw the attention away from the point of origin.

Posted by: suoq Jul 9 2011, 07:50 PM

I'm going to try one last time to get you to consider the inherent contradiction.
1) "get people moving a certain way"
2) "advertising stunts, no doubt, are not unheard of"

#2 interferes with #1.

You are trying to get a majority of people to react in a excited manner way by using a method (AR transmission) society has trained them to be blase about. You want to create a RL physical response to an AR stimulus in a majority of viewers.

If a GM used such a device to get the crowd to stop you as you chased down your target, would you really buy the crowd's reaction?

Posted by: ggodo Jul 9 2011, 09:33 PM

I think what he's saying is people won't think that the stunt isn't genuine. Throw up a big enough flashy sign, with a big enough sale, and you'll get soccer moms strangling each other for shoes. The trick will be making it look like it's a bigger deal than the normal AR ads.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 11 2011, 01:57 AM

it's not a contradiction - using the phrase "not unheard of" doesn't mean "so often that people become blase about it." I'm going to try, one last time, to ignore the inherent condescension in your posts.

And besides, this is make-believe, with each person or table trying to model their own SR world. In Rubic's and my and other people's make-believe world, there's a possibility that this AR grenade could produce enough of an effect to cause a distraction. In your world, it wouldn't. Cool. But stop trying to pretend it's a bad idea. Just because it wouldn't work in your make-believe world doesn't mean that's the reality, because we determine the reality in our SR.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 02:31 AM

Bro!!

Posted by: suoq Jul 11 2011, 05:58 AM

Good luck.I'm not pretending. In my opinion, it is a bad idea. The only way I can think to make it a good idea is possibly outside Dumpshock's terms and conditions and even then, the complete lack of things like making an Artisan roll to determine it's effectiveness makes it read more like Glamour than anything else.If you want it to work in your make believe world, that's fine. Just say "it works" and quit trying to rationalize it. (Again, like Glamour.) When you attempt to rationalize something, I'm going to ask the questions that pop into my head and point out what appear to be fallacies. If you just say "In my world, it works", then I don't really care because then you're not looking for rationality, you're simply declaring a house rule by fiat.

I don't even remotely try to argue that magic should follow the laws of physics or attempt to understand whatever it is technomancers are doing because in the rules "it works" and there's no attempt to rationalize how it works. It just works. If you want your RFID grenade to be the same way, then that's your house rule. Enjoy.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 11 2011, 01:24 PM

I still don't see the problem. Spam exists, commlinks don't cut it all out, and people are strongly influenced by advertising/misinformation. These are all facts of 2070. I don't see why it'd be a grenade, or use RFIDs (just hack!), but that's not really the point.

Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 11 2011, 01:35 PM

Yeah, I know, right?


I'm thinking the "grenade" bit would really just be something disposable that could be dropped somewhere, so your presence isn't required anywhere near the distraction...I guess the hacker could produce the same effect, but maybe the hacker is otherwise engaged or not available atm or something....And I'm thinking the RFIDs just because this wouldn't need that much processing power, and they're cheap?

Posted by: Kyrel Jul 13 2011, 09:29 AM

You know guys, let's look at this from a slightly different angle momentarily. Aren't we really talking about something akin to an "AR Flashbang"? A device that is designed to momentarily affect unprepared individuals perceiving the world through AR, and cause said targets to behave in an unusual and/or erratic manner, causing a distraction which a Runner can try and use for any number of purposes?

I agree that it might be hard to achieve a "mob-mentality" situation through the use af an "AR grenade", and it might also be difficult to cause immediate effects through the use of ordinary types of advertisment spamming. But how about something as "simple" as a pop-up that is designed to fill the entire "screen" of the "victim" with a sudden strong and painful flash of light, a complete blackout of the surrounding world, or some other sort of invasive overlay that forces the victim to react to the effect.

Sure, there would probably be other ways to achieve the same effect, but shouldn't it theoretically be possible to do something like that within the confines of the game?

Posted by: suoq Jul 13 2011, 10:24 AM

Yes and no. "painful", I don't buy because it requires the screen to produce a level of light that's painful for the user. On the other hand, blink is annoying as heck, so in my opinion, you can definitely create some sort of "invasive overlay that forces the victim to react to the effect", even if the reaction is to simply turn off their AR (which may actually be the desired effect under some circumstances).

Things I would ask the players:
1) Do you want to build/test these in advance or do you just want to make them and hope they work? (Juryrigger?)
2) How many are you building?
3) Pick a threshold for exploit and then start writing the software to have the grenade bypass IR filters. Your threshold determines it's power. i.e. someone's gotta write the code to make this contraption work.
4) Pick a threshold for effect and then have someone start creating the effect. They'll be rolling artisan on this one unless someone has some other skill they think is more applicable. Someone has to actually create this effect, be it annoying, attractive, distracting, whatever.
5) Someone start rolling Armorer to build a grenade that spreads your RFID tags. (I'm personally not sure why the heck you want to use a grenade, maybe it's to make the evidence harder to find. On the other hand, I can see uses for an RFID grenade, especially for the purpose of tracking targets. This may be a dual purpose item.)

Note that a flash bang is a simple 6S across a 20 meter circle. It's tested. It works. It's better than Sex Panther. (More than 60% of the time, it works every time.)