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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ What do you mean you can't drive the get away car?
Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 8 2011, 07:27 PM
I was wondering if we should not take it as a given all runners drive or have access to learn. In RL American culture most people in the suburbs, the prime market for RPG's and rural areas drive because of status and need. But a lot of city people do not drive. They do not need too. I went to college in Brooklyn and never needed a car once except to move in ando ut of dorms. I used mass transit.
In SR land corp employees would have even less need to driving if they live on corp property. So would it be a given that runners would be able to learn a skill like that? Might it not be more common, especially for street level gangs, that they do not know how to drive or that the guy who can drive is special, maybe as special as a spell caster. "Geek the mage?" "Nah, shoot the guy in the green shirt." "Ok" -splat-
"Holy frag they shot Phred.'"
"So?"
"Phred was the only one with a licence!"
"Run away!"
Posted by: Tanegar Jul 8 2011, 07:32 PM
There are a number of skills that should be more-or-less standard, when you think about it. If everyone has a commlink, then everyone should have Computer 1 and Data Search 1, at minimum. Everyone (metahumans, anyway) knows the basics of Etiquette (1). Everyone knows how to look for things (Perception 1). I'm sure convincing arguments could be made for others.
Posted by: Miri Jul 8 2011, 07:36 PM
Driving would be a common skill. Most everyone can drive or tell the autopilot/gridguide where to go. Its when the situation starts getting "fluid" that it gets difficult and thats when you need ranks in the skill, which can simulate broad knowledge or previous experience.
Posted by: EKBT81 Jul 8 2011, 07:40 PM
Whether driving is a common skill would depend on the location IMHO. Certainly in rural North America, probably in Seattle, too. Hong Kong or Tokyo, not so much.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 07:44 PM
I think the idea is that most of those skills are fully functional for 'non-critical' or 'non-stressful' actions, at Rating 0. As long as you don't have Rating X.
Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 8 2011, 07:46 PM
As I understand it, every shadowrunner can drive (or as much "driving" as Gridguide requires)
Driving a getaway car is a different story. Being able to drive the car in combat, drive through gunfire and explosions, pull a 180 at top speeds, those are all things you need special training or skills for.
I'd say most runners could drive to a meet, drive home at the end of the day, and typically display the same driving skills you or I possess. Start shooting at them, however, or put them in difficult situations and they're likely to crash, just like you or I.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 8 2011, 07:53 PM
Indeed, for the first part. Now, since we're talking about *runners*, they probably have at *least* Pilot Ground 1, plus a solid Reaction. They can handle at least minor difficulty without crashing (if, again, they're shadowrunners who drive themselves places).
Posted by: suoq Jul 8 2011, 07:58 PM
Defaulting, PG 121 SR4A for doing things you don't have a skill in.
I'm not sure how it currently is, but once upon a time, it was common to come of age in New York and not have a driver's license. I've heard similar comments about London. I still know people who arrange their lives around public transportation, walking, bike riding, and the occasional taxi or lift from a friend.
To deal with some of the others:
Computer and Data Search: There are plenty of luddites and people who apparently can't even use google, even today. I see no reason for that to change.
Everyone (metahumans, anyway) knows the basics of Etiquette: If everyone knows the basics of Etiquette in your town, I want to go to your town's movie theaters.
Everyone knows how to look for things: And some people really suck at it. That's why they default at -1.
There are common skills I don't have. It takes me 2 days to replace a faucet. I've just spent 6+ hours just fixing my dryer's exhaust pipe. I should be banned from the use of any power tool other than a dremel and a drill. Whomever is running me as a character refuses to spend the karma on getting me Repair:1. I've been repairing this house for 15 years and I still suck at it. By Yerameyahu's logic, I should be capable by now. I'm not.
Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 8 2011, 08:09 PM
Well they could tell a car where to go but maybe not take control of the car and start a get away.
Wasn't there some Arnold movie where he gets into a cab and yells at the computer "Drive! Drive!" as bullets start flying and the computer cheerfully says "I'm not familiar with that address."
Street people might have eittiquette and unarmed combat skills long before they get behind the wheels of a car. I was looking at the news reports of kids in Philadelphia running wild in packs. Lots of crime and stuff but no get away car. A group went to a suburban mall and seemed surprised when they got caught.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 08:19 PM
Total Recall. Johnny Cab. Hilarious character. 
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 8 2011, 08:26 PM
When it comes to handling firearms, how many street people know more than "point the barrel & squeeze the trigger"? (Ref SR4a, page 119, that's rating 0)
Now when it comes to unarmed combat, maybe rating one ("Been in a few fist fights.").
As for telling the car where to go, don't forget to have edited the car's pilot program first as the first cue from a police siren and it's pulling over because "it's the law". Even if that doesn't happen right away, it's only gonna go the speed limit (figure ~40kph in city limits) because "it's the law". Don't think you can be a good wheel man if you let the car do the driving for you.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 08:29 PM
And people laugh at the idea of Redneck Shadowrunners.
Who's laughing now?
Posted by: Sengir Jul 8 2011, 08:42 PM
In SR land corp employees would have even less need to driving if they live on corp property. So would it be a given that runners would be able to learn a skill like that?
Interesting line of thought I must say. With all the megasprawls the need to drive has surely declined, and a lot of people will simply no longer be able to afford a car.
On the other hand, every vehicle has at least Pilot 1. Four dice (Pilot 1 + Response/Device Rating 3) when faced with unexpected behavior is not much, but for going from A to B and stopping for pedestrians it should suffice. Using a Pilot which drives like a 70-year-old might even be an advantage for getaways, because a behaviour recognition would only register another commuter car with R 1 Pilot...
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 08:46 PM
I don't know, I've known about some 70-year olds that scared even my Redneck buddies in their driving habits...
Posted by: Sengir Jul 8 2011, 08:53 PM
I know my grandma...and I've seen her insurance premiums...
But I was more thinking along the lines of the stereotypical overly careful OAP at the wheel
Posted by: Aerospider Jul 8 2011, 08:59 PM
Most RPGs are designed to accommodate a wide variety of character concepts and few more so than SR, so I'd say there are few assumptions one can make about runners. Given that, like most cinematic crime teams, runners tend to form groups of specialists in order to cover all the bases it's more likely in theory and in practice that at most two runners in a given team will have any ranks in a one-man job like Pilot Groundcraft.
Posted by: Sengir Jul 8 2011, 09:11 PM
At least in my experience, a team vehicle is as classic "I thought YOU would be taking care of that" item (unless somebody's character concept automatically makes him designated driver).
Sure, they are specialists - that's why lowly tasks like driving to the job can be done by $SOMEONE.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 09:14 PM
All else fails, get the Rigger to drive. 
Posted by: nezumi Jul 8 2011, 09:34 PM
Seems reasonable as an idea. Indeed, even with a vehicle, most people won't need more than to plug the address into gridguide. I like the current setup, but for themed campaigns, taking away the default of 'you can operate a vehicle' makes sense. For individual characters, I'm sure there's a flaw that could apply.
Posted by: Aerospider Jul 8 2011, 09:37 PM
That's the stupid thing about the team I've got at the moment - the rigger took the quality that reduces one's resistance to biofeedback and then decided that because of this he's never going to jump in. I spent hours crafting a chase scene (adapting the chase combat rules to make them actually fun) and he didn't even start the engine because the target's car looked too fast for him. I'm dreading the day he gives his blimp attachment a try ...
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 09:38 PM
Buh-Huh? A Rigger that doesn't Rig? Now I've seen everything!
Posted by: Aerospider Jul 8 2011, 09:38 PM
That would be Incompetent (Pilot Groundcraft).
Posted by: Aerospider Jul 8 2011, 09:39 PM
He shelled out for a control rig too ...
Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 8 2011, 09:50 PM
A computer skill of 1 means you have that skill with EVERY device. This means you have had experience with a plethora of devices, and have a basic understanding. I suspect many people dont have a computer skill of one. Just go read a list of the top ten stupid questions that Technical Support people get... people are clueless!
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 8 2011, 09:57 PM
Who's laughing now?
In third edition, we had an Elf Assassin who relied totally upon the public transit system. Nothing funnier than the Elf taking the Bus to and from the hit. Of course, who would ever think to check the Bus for an Assassin?
Posted by: Marwynn Jul 8 2011, 10:05 PM
A computer skill of 1 means you have that skill with EVERY device. This means you have had experience with a plethora of devices, and have a basic understanding. I suspect many people dont have a computer skill of one. Just go read a list of the top ten stupid questions that Technical Support people get... people are clueless!
After working as tech support for a year, I can attest to this. Some people I've spoken with had all of these gadgets: iPad, iTouch, iPhone, and several Blackberries all trying to get email. In each and every case they were doing it wrong in a most basic sense.
A Computer Skill of 1? Or Data Search 1? I don't buy it. At best, they are at Rating 0. Untrained but not wholly incompetent.
I bet a lot of modern software (of the Sixth World) has a lot to do with interpreting just what the hell the user wanted to do in the first place. Computer literacy may be higher overall, but I don't think computer knowledge would be significantly higher than today. I mean, why think so hard about it? Just buy an Agent to do these things for you!
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 8 2011, 10:22 PM
I was 23 before I started taking driving lessons.. in the Netherlands it's perfectly reasonable to never learn how to drive a car. Bicycles and public transit get you everywhere, and given the relatively short distances (Dutch cities are quite dense) and intense traffic, a bike is often faster than a car.
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 8 2011, 10:24 PM
I bet a lot of modern software (of the Sixth World) has a lot to do with interpreting just what the hell the user wanted to do in the first place. Computer literacy may be higher overall, but I don't think computer knowledge would be significantly higher than today. I mean, why think so hard about it? Just buy an Agent to do these things for you!
Bing! It's not just a search engine, it's a "decision" engine.
Now it'd be hilarious to come up to a restaurant in a China Town with its name in neon Cantonese, and the ARO that pops up to translate it says "404 Error File Not Found".
Posted by: CanRay Jul 8 2011, 11:31 PM
Posted by: Makki Jul 9 2011, 12:33 AM
The first month I was living the US, the police stopped my bus and checked me out whether I fit a knifer's description.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 9 2011, 01:20 AM
Well, hopefully you weren`t carrying a knife on you. That could have been embarrassing.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2011, 01:59 AM
Re: Data Search/Computer 1, the computers are so user-friendly that there are people in 2070 who can't even *read*.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2011, 02:08 AM
Yeah, that's called "The Majority" and "The Voting Pool", and is outright proof of how dystopian the world has gotten.
Shadowrunners have a higher rate of literacy than Corporate Wageslaves!
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 9 2011, 02:30 AM
Well, they do fine. Icons and everything, nothing *wrong* with that per se. It's just indicative of how user-friendly the things are. And the fact that simsense is in many ways better than written language.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2011, 02:52 AM
Also, voice recognition prevents the need for typing (Even if you lack a datajack or 'Trodes). One of my characters (A rather large ork) uses it because his fingers are too thick for a Commlink's keyboard, and he refuses to get a Troll-Sized one. And you can have written work read to you as well. A lot of posts are probably a combination of file formats with the original spoken work by the author included as well, which might explain the file sizes in the older editions (Which was written in the days when HDD Space was limited and expensive.).
Posted by: TeknoDragon Jul 9 2011, 06:31 AM
... and this is why I put together a rigger for the next game I'm in. IIRC, it was the Troll ex-soldier who went to a target in a cab.
The average person can succeed on an unskilled drive to somewhere; the radio on the morning or evening commute gives a good run-down of where someone missed the roll. I figure it is reasonable to expect a character to be able to drive point A to point B without any training, but anything more 'exciting' than clear, dry pavement should require them to either explicitly state care being taken or they're in for a world of hurt.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 9 2011, 04:54 PM
It's an interesting idea. A lot of people think they can drive having never got behind the wheel. About 2 weeks ago in Philly a 14 year old took his mom's car for a joy ride. At 2 am he blew past staties on the highway, driving erratically and having no lights on. I'm sure he thought he was hot stuff The family of the innocent by stanbder he killed won't agree.
I enjoy driving and think I'm good. By comparrison my husband says he doesn't like driving and only does it to get from A to B.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2011, 07:03 PM
I've never had a license beyond a Learners Permit, and scare the hell out of people when I mention that "I've kept my hand in while playing GTA." 'Course, I don't get many opportunities to drive (I use it as my photo ID, not wanting to carry around my Passport.).
One Redneck buddy of mine back home, however, is a damn fine hand behind the wheel, and somedays I figure I might get him one of those "Advanced Driving Techniques" classes for a birthday gift or some-such.
My Father was also an exceptional driver (He used to drive truck), and could thread the eye of a needle in the worst weather while bobtailing (Empty box trailer, which is easily blown around in winds.). Put him in something as small and easy as a car, and he was amazing. Our big ol' boat of a Mercury Grand Marquis LS could blow almost anything on the street away despite being a full-sized sedan (The big block V-8 was never to be denied!).
...
Actually, that might be part of why I have issues driving today, that's what I learned on, and it was near impossible to keep her under the speed limit in the city. Everything else I've driven since feels gutless and that I have to slam the peddle down just to get it to move. 'Course, it's been years since I've gotten behind the wheel of anything... 
Posted by: Marwynn Jul 9 2011, 07:05 PM
My driving instructor put it quite nicely after my first in-car lesson: "There's 'driving' and there's 'making the car go'. I just taught you how to make it go, now I'll to teach you to drive." She was awesome.
I enjoy driving, I hate other drivers.
Also, with the benefits of Grid Guide, a pilot program, and AR overlays anything not involving a police chase should be an auto-pass. Unless it's critical to the story.
Hey wait... AR... spam... you don't suppose drivers get flooded with AR spam do you? The firewalls aren't that good.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 9 2011, 07:18 PM
I've always had them overwhelmed. Of course, I usually go with the idea they're working with the Car's system with their own CommLink, and thus it's the CommLink's Firewall that matters. (That said, my characters usually up the Firewall to max on their vehicles. Not that I've ever played any of my characters. ).
Also, I've had the idea that there's various levels of GridGuide you can order the service of, with the higher-end services giving you priority lane-change options and such. Emergency Services (Police, Ambulance, Fire Trucks, not in that order), of course, have ultimate high-end priority. Military vehicles are exempt from GridGuide under certain circumstances (National/Metroplex Guard falls under this as well.). Another reason to get that GridGuide Override is that you get the highest-end civilian service from the system, and you car doesn't pull itself over when the cop behind you double-clicks your license plate ARO.
My group actually took this little tidbit that I told them about it and used it to an advantage in one run, by re-routing Emergency Service priority to Commercial Accounts for Postal and Delivery Services. Cops were being cut off as their squad cars pulled over to let the "Emergency" Federal-United Postal (FedUP) truck go by.
Posted by: nezumi Jul 9 2011, 09:16 PM
I really like that idea. Consider it yoinked
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 9 2011, 09:27 PM
As far as AR spam while driving, you could also rule that there are laws stating spam cannot be sent to a vehicle not driving on auto pilot. Would then let all those wageslaves letting their cars do the driving get their McHugh's or Stuffer Shack special combo meal deals as they ride on their way to work for the man.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 10 2011, 08:17 PM
peddle down just to get it to move. 'Course, it's been years since I've gotten behind the wheel of anything...
As for those driving games, I played road rash with friends once. I was the only one with a bike licence and when there was a wipe out they lauhged saying I went green.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 10:58 PM
Flipside is that I'm probably better off than most Urban people when it comes to driving. Having been at least a passenger on a few wild rides I know what you can and can't do in a vehicle (Some of the rides I've been on have literally been, "Shift more to the right before we crash."). There's a big difference between games and feeling.
You also have to know your vehicle, and the way it's specced out as well. A few pounds here and there do, indeed, make a lot of difference. (Even if you're not driving insanely. A pound here or there in optional equipment on a transport truck can be an extra box or two in the trailer. Long term, that adds up to quite a bit!). I saw my buddy and father nod in acknowledgement to The Transporter when he was talking about how carefully the protagonist had equipped his car for the situation, and just how much an extra body could screw that up (Then shake their heads for the rest of the movie.). Even the type of load can change things quite dramatically. Another example is "Black Dog" where the customs officials knew something was up with the load due to it being exactly the maximum load when they were hauling light cargo.
Also, you never want to try a high-speed chase through twisty streets with a liquid load. The sloshing motion in the tank will shift the trailer around quite dramatically. Hope it's a strong trailer when you smack it up against things.
And I'm going way too deep into things. I'll leave that for when I'm writing Nas.
Posted by: Hound Jul 10 2011, 11:48 PM
just thought I'd throw this in: I am living proof of this statement. I have been known to miss large objects until I hit my foot on them, fairly frequently.
Posted by: Glyph Jul 11 2011, 12:01 AM
All that a street samurai with a Reaction of 9 needs is pilot ground vehicle: 1 with a specialization in wheeled, and he's rolling 12 dice to drive the getaway car (13 if he's using AR). Makes for a pretty decent backup driver when the rigger's busy doing half a dozen other things.
The average wageslave, by contrast, has a skill of 0 - which the book describes as a basic operator's license. A skill of 1 is a weekend off-roader or a seasoned driver who has an insurance premium discount. Again, going by the book. It makes sense - most people are fine driving to work, maybe even in inclement weather or heavy traffic, but they never need to make a bootlegger turn or (successfully) outrun the cops.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 11 2011, 01:01 AM
Which is why PC's (and many re-usable NPC's) shouldn't be hyperfocused. It's good to have some back-up when the trouble comes.
No one should ever try to outrun anyone. It just gets you noticed.
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 11 2011, 01:08 AM
When you're at the point of having to outrun the cops, you've already been noticed. Then it's best to hit the spoof chip on random shuffle/repeat, blank out your morphine license plate, and pray your chameleon coating still works if you manage to duck into a good hiding spot.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 11 2011, 01:19 AM
Still better then trying to win a road race with the cops.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 11 2011, 01:22 AM
http://crash2014.deviantart.com/art/Pull-Over-217559968
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 11 2011, 01:31 AM
@HunterHerne: Better to avoid being noticed and/or having to be in a road race with the cops in the first place, really.
@CanRay: Made me think of an old and really funny joke that'd be rather inappropriate to post here.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 06:28 AM
Of course, most people don't pick up Pilot Groundgraft anymore; they just get a car with Pilot 1-3 and a Pilot Groundcraft autosoft.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 12 2011, 03:37 PM
If you're racing the police, you've lost, the trick is to be gone before they arrive.
Last night we wnet out for my birthday. I drove my husband's car and he would drive back when I had been drinking. I hated the lesser power and tighter steering of his ford. Perfectly usable car but just not mine.
Posted by: Miri Jul 12 2011, 03:51 PM
Where can I get one of those!?
Posted by: CanRay Jul 12 2011, 03:59 PM
It's why a person I heard about stopped when he was caught burying the needle on a Ducati. Even if it took close to a klick to do it safely. He got off with a warning.
Posted by: SpellBinder Jul 12 2011, 07:02 PM
Wow, did I have a brain fart or what.
It's a special issue, I'll get you in touch with my man Merlin and set you up
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