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Posted by: Nifft Jul 9 2011, 05:20 PM

It has come up before on this forum that "organlegging" is kind of stupid, given that it's usually cheaper to just buy a new part cloned from your own DNA, and using your own clone also eliminates all sorts of health risks. However, the idea of human chop-shops is phenomenally dystopian, so I want to keep it in some form.

Here's what I came up with:

Talisma are made of people! Specifically, Awakened metas and critters. Well, not all of them are, but enough that it's an intensely profitable grey market for some operators, and those operators make it dangerous for mages to go around slinging magic casually. I rather like the side-effect that mages become a paranoid bunch who tend to avoid publicity.

Anyone see any problems with this?

Thanks, -- N

Posted by: Rubic Jul 9 2011, 05:46 PM

That's actually not far from setting a written. There are some telesma that come from the earth and plants, but meta-critters are probably the more reliable source already. As for organlegging, it profits in part from people who are too poor to afford vat-grown replacements (modern day, I'd fall into the equivalent due to low wages versus cost of living), another part from people requiring SPECIFIC matches for nefarious or genetic reasons (biosystem intolerance of some sort requiring cheap deltaware), and in part from ghouls that require such limbs for sustenance.

Posted by: suoq Jul 9 2011, 05:52 PM

As usual, can someone point me to the fluff/cruch that says this?

My gut feeling is that cloning probably isn't quick and requires you to have access to such a facility, where organlegging is potentially fast, can be done by people willing to ignore things like laws and ethics, and may be necessary to keep you going until the cloned part is ready.

Posted by: Fringe Jul 9 2011, 06:57 PM

I don't see anything about costs with respect to organlegging, but the primary concern seems to be time. SR4A, p. 54, talks about organlegging, as does Augmentation, pp. 16-17. Compare with the cost and (especially) time to grow replacement organs, Augmentation, pp. 126-7. You're looking at 2-4 weeks for most body parts, or 8 weeks for a full-body clone.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 9 2011, 09:39 PM

First, it's telesma, not talisma.
Second, yeah, awakened critters can be used for it, so no reason for awakened metahumans not to. It'd not be widespread, though, minding that there's not that many awakened to begin with. So I think it's better to just handwave it without going into the profitability details too much with your players.

Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 10 2011, 03:30 AM

Eh, there are PLENTY of reasons for organ legging. And i already thought that having "awesome" organs is a good reason to murder someone and sell his orgens to dark mages or shadow spirits or something.

For example "Heart of a fearless slayer of monsters" could be a great telesma... where do you get it? By killing that ghoul-hunter Adept in your neigborhood.
Or "Brain of a Psionic", "Legbones of the fastest kid in the city".. a "newborn babies smile"... whoa... this is DARK.

But seriously cloned stuff is: EXPENSIVE (sure not by runner standards). But if you can scrape together 2500 bucks with all your friends to try and save the life of your little daughter, who is SINLESS and has no insurance. Do you really care when some shady doctor says: yeah, i do it for 2500 now and 2500 in three months?

Also sometimes you need to have the cloned stuff NOW, but it takes months to grow. Only those with a good insurance/docwagon contract have a cloned wimp on standby. Organlegging is very legitimate for the poor and desperate. Since medicine is so advanced that people can transplant stuff in a backroom of a bar with minimal education/equipment costs can stay low.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 03:32 AM

Although, with magic involved, I think we found another shady deal for Aztechnology to be involved with...

Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 10 2011, 03:38 AM

Eh... with aztechnology i always more think about abductions. It is important people are still alive if you need to squeeze the life out of them. Ritualistic symbols are not enough.

I wonder: Does aztechnology have some meat-grinder like machine, where you throw in dozens of people per minute and the machine perfectly rips out their hearts... just takes a bit of time so they can build up sufficient fear? And all of the blood fuels a giant spawning pool for bloodspirits or something? With punchcard executioners and bloodmages emotionless doing their work?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 03:49 AM

No, that's at the other end of the sacrificial alter for the Soy-Sloppies.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 10 2011, 06:59 AM

Soyalent green is MY kind of people!

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 07:18 AM

"So, how does it taste?" "Meh, it varies from person to person."

Blood Magic and Toxic Magic Talesma is likely to work with human remains. Non-Toxic magic, OTOH, is less likely to please the Spirits...

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 10 2011, 09:22 AM

One idea that springs to mind is a dodgy medical clinic in the slums which, unbeknownst to the customers, uses cheap second-hand organs and cyber-/bioware as a way to keep overheads down and thereby increase profit margins.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 10:25 AM

AFAIK organlegging is illegal even in Shadowrun. While you may reduce the prodction cost, you would probably have a much higher overhead of bribes, security etc.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 10 2011, 11:08 AM

Rule Zero: don't get caught.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 02:02 PM

Only if the rewards are worth the risk you would try to create such a large criminal enterprise. I don't see enough profit in organlegging.

Posted by: suoq Jul 10 2011, 02:33 PM

Not all rewards are financial. For example, the Lambeth Containment Zone (Sixth World Almanac, pg 167) is unlikely to have cloning, bioware, or cyberware. What they do have, in large numbers, is an entire population and way of life they distrust and are actively at war with sitting just outside their borders and occasionally invading them.

In such an area, organlegging could easily become a way of life.

Any area where cloning is hard to obtain and body parts aren't is a perfectly good environment for organlegging to flourish, either for profit or for group survival.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 10 2011, 03:06 PM

I wouldn't try it either, but even in the real world there's no shortage of people willing to engage in ill-advised high-risk, low-reward criminal activity. Maybe a dodgy streetdoc gets into illicitly dealing second-hand organs because he's desperate enough to try it 'just this once' to make rent, maybe he's just underestimated the risks (or the expense necessary to minimise those risks) or overestimated the profits, maybe he's been forced into retail by a scary organlegging gang, maybe he's further padding the profits by collecting the parts himself from unsuspecting clients, maybe he just gets a sick thrill from the knowledge that he's secretly violating people in a fairly profound way.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 03:19 PM

Yes, this is a good point. There are certainly places where the assumptions in the core rules don't apply -- availability of clone parts, for example. If there are no clone parts around, yet there are lots of surgical theaters, and piles of unscrupulous yet trustworthy doctors, then organ-legging may make perfect sense.

However, I'm operating a game within the core rules and their assumptions -- like the availability of clone parts -- do apply. So I'm looking for feedback within that context.

Within that context, I don't think organ-legging makes much sense.

My major change is to add "awakened meta-humans" to the list of things you can turn into telesma.

Thanks, -- N

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 03:26 PM

If the streetdoc is doing it "just this once" -- which seems very plausible -- there's no industry. It's a one-off.

If a street-doc has underestimated risk, he will get caught by those risks. Again, there's no industry, because those who try it fall prey to the risks they underestimated.

If he's forced into it by a gang, there's still a need for customers. The gang may cater to the rich (just like they import drugs for rich kids, and import sex-workers for well-off customers), but then it's in competition with clone parts, which are significantly safer. Or the gang can try to cater to the poor, who can't pay for expensive services... yeah.

If he's getting off on doing horrible things to innocent people, I don't see why he's going to limit his thrills to benefit some people at the expense of others -- unless the ones he's benefiting are rich & powerful, in which case see above.

You need special circumstances to justify organ-legging. You need pathologically specific circumstances to justify an organ-legging industry.

Cheers, -- N

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 03:37 PM

My point exactly

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 03:53 PM

Yep yep. But I still want there to be some dark dealings with illegal wetware chop-shops, so I'm looking for an excuse to justify them. The excuse I came up with is telesma, which are expensive enough to justify shady dealings.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 10 2011, 03:59 PM

Yep, I get your point, but I wasn't so concerned with trying to justify an organlegging industry as how to justify the practice of organlegging within a story. If cloned parts really are cheaper for the consumer than second-hand parts (and I'm not sure about that, given the fluff in Augmentation), a widespread organlegging industry would be difficult to sustain, however the continued existence of the practice isn't difficult to justify in-game.

If you really want to retain the idea of the human chop-shop in a world where cloned organs are the cheaper option, maybe organleggers could be primarily concerned with the illicit procurement and sale of cyberware and bioware. Or maybe it's a primarily one-way industry, with Tamanous voraciously buying up parts to ship to Asamando.

(I don't mean to criticise your telesma idea at all, I'm just suggesting other options).

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 10 2011, 04:00 PM

The problem with the Tamanous business model:
* You can only sell to those so poor that they can't get a mob loan for a cloned organ.
* You have serious expenses (bribes, smuggling, harvesting).
* The merchandise is almost always poor quality, or expensive to acquire (because healthy people tend to be the people who enjoy actual legal protection.)
* All manner of people get offended by what you do; even hardened criminals often think you're squicky.

I think the profit margins on that are really really low.

---

Niche environments: if it's hard to smuggle in cloned organs, it'll also be hard to smuggle in stolen organs. And if you start organlegging in a containment zone, pretty soon everyone is going to notice what's happening. At that point other groups will probably try to move against you, unless you take complete control of the area; but that's a whole different kind of criminal racket (and probably far more profitable than organlegging!)

---
Now, I agree that organlegging fits the style of a dystopian world, but it just doesn't make sense under the current biotech rules; it's just become obsolete because of cloned organs.

I think that if you really jack up the costs and limit the availability of biotech, you make organlegging plausible again, and at the same time make cyberware more of a standard choice. That might actually work out well.

Posted by: suoq Jul 10 2011, 04:08 PM

Until the cloned part is available (2-4 weeks?) what does the patient use in place of the damaged part?
For non-awakened, I can imagine some sort of cyberware as a temporary replacement, assuming of course that you have a SIN and the funding to get the cloned part, rent the cyberware, and have the various operations performed.

For the already insanely cybered (shadowrunners with almost no essence left) or for the awakened (who don't want the loss of power that comes with loss of essence), organlegging may be their best option and such people may be best equipped to pay what it takes to skirt the law.

For thsoe with fake SINs, do you really trust your fake sin to survive 2-4 weeks of hospital visits, insurance checks, etc. And OMG, your DNA is on file under that fake SIN forever.

So while I don't have a problem with your solution, I don't see the actual problem.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 10 2011, 04:27 PM

A suitable Type O organ is actually easier to get than a matching stolen organ. It's only growing cultured organs that takes time to do, so unless you need a Vampire Kidney or something ridiculous, off-the-shelf biotech is way more desirable than Tamanous having your genetic needs on file.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 10 2011, 04:27 PM

Exactly organlegging makes sense not only as a stop gap option. Not only would your DNA be on file, there is nothing preventing the biotech firm from using your DNA against you in a variety of ways, particularly if you piss them off. If they find out about your "special skills" and "questionable ethics" don't be surprised by becoming their permanent bitch. I can see a real shadow clinic priding itself on having no records of your visit, and a thorough 100% visible chain of custody ending in disposal of all samples not used in the cultivation of specific body part.

Where do the SINless go to get replacement body parts, yeah down to Billy the Butcher the local Mafia front. Waste not, want not. Instead of putting inconvenient bodies through the meatgrinder, you cut out the good bits first and stick them on ice, help recoup the cost of the bullet. Insurance, what is that. the bottom of the barrel can't afford insurance.

Growing a cloned body part costs money, collecting organs from someone you just turned into a corpse is free. For the organlegger it is almost 100% pure profit, and no one gives a crap about the people being harvested.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 10 2011, 04:35 PM

Don't get cultured organs. There's no need; just get Type O. Nobody needs to know about yuor DNA, just tell them you want a left kidney; they'll just plug it in tomorrow during lunch.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 04:48 PM

Except that a SINless person can likely get 2nd Hand Organs for far less than the Type O organ you are discussing. Why pay 6,000 for an Organ when you can get it from a 'Legger for half that, or even less?

Lets see...
Item Stolen, Item Used, Price War and Market Flooded result in 60% markdown, FROM BASELINE (you could have other modifiers, but lets just stick with this)... so, if the Tamanous Agent pays 500 per Body, harvests even 5 useable organs, or other systems, and sells them for 40% of a Baseline Type O match, they have made Bank, and then some. Assume they are all Organs, at a Markdown from 6,000 Nuyen to 2400 Each. 5 Organs gets them 12000 Nuyen, and they only paid 500 Nuyen for it. 2300% Profit Seems like it would make for a Booming Business to me. Limbs/Hands/Feet give an even better return on the initial investment.

You might ask where I pulled the Cost of the Body from. In our campaign, Tamanous will make an arrangement for 500 Nuyen a Body, if you deliver it. I know that this will likely be campaign Specific. But it is a good place to start comparing prices.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 10 2011, 04:51 PM

But a type-O kidney still costs over a month's salary, working 40 hour days (per the Day Job quality).

My position at the moment, unless someone can point out something to the contrary, is that second-hand organs must be cheaper than cloned organs. As has been pointed out, the organlegging industry is difficult to explain if cloned organs are cheaper and safer than second-hand organs, and fluff suggests both that the organlegging industry is on the rise and that organlegger's products are 'low cost'.

Very good points on the street costs adjustments, Tymeaus. I'd forgotten all about them!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 04:57 PM

2nd hand would be cheaper by strictest definition, even if only by 20%.
Using the Classification of 'Ware would also work as well. A Straight 50% decrease is nice. I prefer the variability that occurs when you use Street Costs Adjustments, because you can have some interesting things occur due to "Gang War, Crackdowns, Legislation" or other occurrence on the street. But a Straight 50% is nice too. At least it sets a reliable method to use to calculate costs.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 10 2011, 05:01 PM

I'd forgotten all about Street Costs Adjustments. I think that's a really cool way to do it. Thanks Tymeaus

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 10 2011, 05:16 PM

+1. That's pretty cool.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 06:12 PM

Just don't get stuck with two right arms, one of which is from an African descendant while you're Caucasian.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 10 2011, 06:17 PM

Hilarious, but it brings up the idea of cosmetic alteration, which can deal with the skin tone pretty cheaply. Try to keep it under-the-radar while you're trying to finance a clone piece and wait for it to grow.

A second right arm, is a bit trickier, though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 06:19 PM

Some times, you take what you can get...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 06:19 PM

My Pleasure...

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 06:35 PM

Sorry, forgot that would be considered somewhat obscure in this day and age.

Harry Harrison's "Bill The Galactic Hero" is infamous for his Two-Handed Salute due to having two right hands, and gave us such wonderful moral statements such as "It's always Bowb-your-buddy week". With its humour, depictions of a corrupt government, massive slums, a never-ending war to keep emergency war measures in action, and a lot of other fun things, it's actually a pretty good view of a dystopian empire from the point of view of a soldier who happened to have been dropped on the head as a child. Repeatedly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 06:50 PM

Heh... Interesting...

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 07:15 PM

It's a nice precursor to "The Stainless Steel Rat", who as we all know, is the patron saint of Shadowrunners.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 07:17 PM

You are assuming that every body you haul in is made entirely of type-O parts, and that's a bad assumption. You might find a few out there, but sorting them from the useless organs most people are packed with isn't trivial.

See, unlike 'ware, there's no real reason to upgrade, so there's no reason to sell your type-O kidney back to the shop voluntarily. That eliminates the usual source for stuff which is priced second-hand. Involuntary involves sorting through a haystack of guts to find a few needles of type-O... and remember, you need to pay for the bio-lab which runs all these tests, either by owning it yourself, or renting time from someone else. I don't see any way that a low-margin business could afford such an expensive service. (Also you need to screen them for diseases, etc.)

It's a good idea to try to apply standard game mechanics, but in this case it won't work if people think about the implications at all.

Thanks, -- N

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 10 2011, 07:24 PM

That's why they take more bodies in than they have clients needing new parts installed - besides the need to feed the ghouls, that is. You've got to have an assortment, for compatibility. Don't get too hung up on Type O. That's compatible with everybody, yes - but pretty much every body is going to be compatible with SOMEBODY.

I'm assuming medical advances in dealing with rejection-related issues, of course, but I don't think that's unreasonable, given that you can pick out a piece of metal or bundle of tissue at the mall and have it installed in your body.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 10 2011, 07:25 PM

It takes a 30BP PQ to be a Type O donor; most people aren't. Their organs will only work well for people with sufficiently matching bodies, and even then require immunosuppressant drugs (a perpetual expense!) In fact, people that will easily be missed are also likely to be unhealthy and not a good donor for anyone.

The only way organ-legging is really going to be plausible if the 'leggers buy extremely cheaply, and sell quite a lot cheaper than cloned organs.

But I think running an organlegging business has significant overhead; it's one of the most loathsome professions, so you need to pay hefty bribes to be left to your devices, or use a lot of legbreaking to keep people off your back. But that can easily cause a collision with more mainstream syndicates as well - again expensive.

I think the only way to make organlegging plausible, is to increase the prices of clone-grown organs above RAW.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 07:29 PM

Or just operate in areas where nobody cares at all. Hell, some might see you as a hero! You get rid of the malcontents and dangerous people, and provide life to the good and wonderful poor people of the community.

Still wouldn't take much to get folks riled up and the urban equivalent of pitchforks and torches, however...

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 10 2011, 07:31 PM

Nobody likes an Igor in the neighborhood. So unsightly. But then there was that accident, and young Bill lost his leg...

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 07:35 PM

Actually, a good way of working Organleggers in as a legitimate (If still squicktastic) thing is to read Discworld novels and think of them like the Igors from that.

Even the highly non-racist Sir Samuel Vimes (He hates everyone equally, including himself. ESPECIALLY himself!) liked having one on staff. Medic and forensic expert in one (misshapen) form!

They aren't liked, but yes, when Young Bill loses his leg...

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 07:36 PM

I know igors are good with needles and thread and sometimes inherit organs/limbs from their relatives, but I can't remember anything about organlegging. In a more advanced society they probably would be good at cloning as well.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 07:38 PM

Yeah, but that requires storage and record-keeping on a massive scale, so you can match "donors" with patients. That kind of record-keeping means leaving a HUGE data-trail which anyone who dislikes you (i.e. everyone) could use to destroy your storage, and therefore your profits, if not also destroy you personally.

People prefer to get paid in goods that are easily concealed, untraceable, imperishable and valuable-to-everyone for good reason.

Organ-legging as-written is dealing with goods that are bulky, traceable, perishable and valuable-to-almost-nobody.

-----

Actually, here's an interesting organ-legging reversal: imagine a crew that steals organs and replaces them with type-O so they have ritual links to screw you over later in life.

Cheers, -- N

Posted by: Sengir Jul 10 2011, 07:40 PM

Here's some ideas I came up with when brainstorming for a campaign:
- If somebody needs an organ grown, he invites tenders on a (legal & legitimate) "biotech classifieds" network. Organleggers are active on these sites and can of course undercut the competition in price and delivery times, if they have a matching organ on offer.
- A street doc checks whether he can get a matching harvested organ before ordering a cloned one for his client. Of course the client is billed for a new one.
- Somebody in the biotech facility to which the actual cloning got sub-subcontracted is the malefactor. If an order comes in for something he has in the freezer, he'll fake the paperwork to make it look as if the organ got cloned, and then ship the harvested one.

Assume the illicit supplier can pull his trick on 5% of all offers, then all three scenarios offer a nice cash stream in the long run.

Additionally, human organs could be made more expensive for a number of reasons:
- The old "natural salt is better than NaCl" story. People believe that "natural" organs are better and organlegging is just banned to protect the biotech monopolies of the AAAs, and believers are always willing to pay a markup. One could even con these people by selling them normal cultured stuff.
- An organ from a fitting donor counts as cultured. Which actually makes a lot of sense, because there are few people with Type O organs.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 10 2011, 07:48 PM

No, I actually was not assuming that. The cheapes Cost ofr Parts is Type O. Which is what I was basing my cost analysis upon, not that fact that everyone would have Type O parts. Organs can be implanted in anyone, with the right Immuno Suppressants. And an Organ can be FOUND for anyone, with enough looking. So, If you want to base the Cost on a "Clonal PArt," The Organleggers make even more money. They will sell their parts to those who can use them.

Clonal Parts need no Immuno Suppressants...
Type O Parts Need no Immuno SUppressants
All other PArts likely require some level of Immuno Suppressants, dependant upon how close a match is provided. In a Black Clinic, you take your chances, but at least it is likely cheaper than a Type O or Clonal Replacemewnt part.

A Black Clinic or Street Doc with at least a Shop can perform any of the required tests for Organ/Limb replacement. It does not cost all that much, actually.

As for Usual Source for Second Hand. Any body can be a source for Second Hand Ware. No one says that they have to survive the procedure. I think you are making some assumptions about the world that are not actually true. I think that you are concentrating on LEGAL Organ and Limb transplants, which Organlegging takes absolutely no part in. Again, you get what you get, and hope that it works.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 07:49 PM

The problem is that whether the organ is cloned or not can be verified by a DNA test, and the fraud will be revealed.

With good PR you can convince the public of all sorts of crazy stuff. This type of brainwashing will be expensive as well though. Even if a lot of people hate the Megacorps and their power, few will think that a possibly criminally obtained organ will be better than what is essentially your own organ.
What benefit is there from cultured organs besides not being Type O?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 07:51 PM

There's a lot of organlegging that Igors do. However, it's all voluntary. If you accept help from an Igor, then, when you pass on, you're expected to give something back, or a lot of somethings in bad situations.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 10 2011, 08:00 PM

Sure, every fraud can be found out somehow

Good question, but it's obviously worth a significant markup.


And just read some esoteric forums to see what crazy stuff people are willing to believe, without large PR departments

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 08:03 PM

No thanks, I get into the head of conspiracy theorists for my Shadowposts and that's bad enough.

Posted by: Nifft Jul 10 2011, 08:10 PM

Emphasis mine. That "enough looking" thing is very expensive.

I'm just not seeing why it should be cheaper to pay for "enough looking" than it would be to pay for a type-O generic part.

What costs a lot is running those tests on every single corpse you drag in, in the hopes that you'll find the needle in the haystack which nets you less than the cost of a type-O generic organ.

If you think that, then you're missing my point here. The point is that the second-hand market works only because it deals with:
- parts that are high margin (even the cheapest 'ware is an investment);
- parts that people want to voluntarily replace (so you have a good excuse for why second-hand parts exist when the cops ask about them on your price-list); and
- parts that are fairly generic because they are either cyber (no DNA to match) or type-O generic bioware.

Replacement organs from corpses match NONE of these criteria, and they add complications, like the fact that many of them are material evidence linking you to a recent crime.

What I'm saying is that if you want to use the MECHANICS for legal second-hand parts, you need to match the CRITERIA for that market to exist. Organ-legging fails to meet any of the criteria.

Cheers, -- N

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 10 2011, 08:27 PM

There was one good at cloning in Discworld. The Igor employed in the Guard has this radical idea of growing ears and noses and such on rats, in jars, etc, so there's extras in case somebody loses one. Unpopular with the traditionalist Igors, but Vimes thought it useful, if unpleasant.

Also, Igors are total organleggers. The thing about young Bill losing a leg was actually from the books, though the name may not have been Bill and it was specifically a woodcutting accident. You need a body part, you come to Igor. He's probably got something on ice that will do. But when you die, your family should know to expect a knock on the door from Igor, because your parts could well be useful for somebody else. The fact that they enthusiastically practice on themselves too is just an extension of it.

As for the comparative viability of organlegging in Shadowrun, I don't know. Growing Type O organs is sure to be reasonably expensive too, or at least require substantial equipment, and the sort of an operation would involve a paper trail. Not necessarily expensive, if they deal in enough of them, but the costs are enough that only legitimate operations can deal in them. If you need an organ replacement on the down-low - possibly because you were wounded in a high-profile criminal operation or something of that sort - maybe you have to settle for whatever somebody's got on ice.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 10 2011, 08:43 PM

Depending on what organ we are talking about, extracting a sample and having it tested wil be quite easy (skingrafts/full limbs) or hard (internal organs)

The markup may not be beacuse the organs are inherently better but be caused by higher creation cost.


Yes you will find some people who will believe all sorts of BS but for a working industry you would need a significant portion of the people who need new organs to believe that particular BS.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 10 2011, 08:55 PM

This kind of in-the-shadows cutting-corners kind of corruption and organlegging sounds a lot more plausible than the vast-body-snatching Tamanous paranoia.




Another thing to keep in mind: how quickly do organs in a dead body start to decay? I think that unless you quickly use some kind of preservation method, the organs are going to end up polluted by the corpse around it. The corpses you've got left over from last night's fiasco are probably not good for anything else but feeding the ghouls.

That's also why I think it's dubious that Tamanous has a desk where people can drop off corpses they want to sell; most corpses are useless (diseased, decayed, incompatible). If people need to drag 20 corpses to your hideout for every 1 corpse you're gonna buy, that's way too inconspicuous.

So maybe there's some sort of corpse-evaluation-collection kit that prospective "harvesters" can carry around (make sure not to get caught); I'd make that a Medicine roll to evaluate a corpse for "reseller value".

I think organlegging has a place in the setting, but I think it should be quite low-key, very secretive and not on the massive scale suggested by Tamanous.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 10 2011, 11:07 PM

Isn't the transplant time IRL something close to an hour or two? For removal from the body, that is. Transport can lead on that time for a bit with packed ice and such.

Personally, I figure that SR Tech allows for harvested organs to be stored for a significant length of time, months if not a full year, allowing for quite the stock to be prepared. This is probably a secondary effect of cybernetic and bioware systems being developed.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 11 2011, 02:01 AM

Personally, given the fluff and crunch, I don't think it's difficult to justify a widespread organlegging industry supported primarily by sales of second-hand organs for implantation. We're told that organleggers supply low-cost products to a high-demand market, and it's a huge market: many (perhaps even most) people in the SR-verse presumably simply cannot afford cloned organs, so their only options are second-hand bits or going without.

Sure, the illegal industry faces difficulties and risks that the legitimate sector doesn't, but operators like Tamanous have obviously worked out a way to be profitable regardless. Perhaps a combination of an economy of scale, globalisation, a fantastic distribution network, and advances in immuno-suppressant medication/implants. I realise that it's somewhat disanalogous, but it is still interesting to consider real world examples of the distribution of illegal products: counterfeit pharmaceuticals, for example, are estimated to an annual net $32 billion globally, sustained by only a 9% profit margin for importers (and that's if sold for MSRP).

To my mind, it would be harder to justify an organlegging industry sustained primarily by sales of human telesma, given the much smaller market (only awakened, only those who want foci, only those with focus formulae requiring human telesma, only those who are willing to stomach the risk/immorality of using such a focus, etc). It would certainly make a good story, and would be a lucrative specialty sideline for organleggers, but I can't see it as a better justification for an industry than mass distribution of even a risky, illegal, low-margin product.

YMMV, of course, and we're all allowed to disagree and run our settings as we like. There's no right or wrong. I just personally prefer to find ways to justify the fluff rather than revising the the setting to fit extra-setting preconceptions. Peace!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:40 AM

Who said anything about VOLUNTARY replacement. Sometimes you have no choice and just have to get something replaced. Take a severe wound and your liver is destroyed. Got to have a new one. Nothing Voluntary about that at all...

Price Lists? Are you kidding me?

Who said they were legal? Did you not see the Markdowns due to street costs that I was using? Those are the Mecahnics I am talking about. There is NOTHING LEGAL about Organlegging. I thought that you knew that. Organlegging is Illegal. Why are you trying to make it into a legal enterprise? I am not matching your Legal Criteria for Organlegging, because I am not trying to make organlegging a legal practice.

And another question. How often, in your game, do the Police carry a Biomedical Scanning Facility/Shop (entertaining isn't it?) to examine someone on the chance that they MAY have Illegal Organs gleaned from the Organleggers in their body? I mean really? Are you even hearing what you are saying?

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 02:47 AM

I've found organlegging to be a ridiculous idea as well. In SR's 2071, biotechnology (or cybertechnology) really is the better option. My RM is a dialysis patient, 3 days per week. She *is* on a kidney donor waiting list and notes that with any transplanted organ, you're on a handful of drugs *every day for the rest of your life* to stop your body from rejecting it, and implanting it requires a pricey surgery and hospital stay as well. Accordingly, organlegging was retconned out of existence at our gaming table.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:48 AM

How Nice for you...
Better Option does not mean Only Option...

Posted by: Nifft Jul 11 2011, 03:23 AM

Simmer down.

Either you communicate with new customers, or you don't have an industry. "Price list" is short-hand for that communication. Are you saying that your street docs never see new patients?

Markdowns to what? You don't have "price lists", so what exactly are you marking down?

No shit.

Here's the thing you're missing: in order to hide an illegal enterprise, you usually need a legal enterprise to front for it. For example, a pawn shop as the front for a fence. There are lots of legal goods for sale, and lots of stolen goods, but you mix them together and paint on a patina of plausible deniability. This allows the enterprise to survive the scrutiny of the authorities, whatever form they take.

All the fucking time. It's called an autopsy, and it happens at a "biomedical scanning facility" -- a facility specialized in identifying DNA, which they like to use for evidence.

But you've missed the point I was trying to make, which is that for a 'runner, the dumbest thing he could possibly do is try to hawk body-parts which could place him at the scene of a crime (i.e. the murder scene, where he got the parts). You're selling evidence to unscrupulous people. If there's a reward for information leading to your capture and that reward is more than the slim margin they stand to make for participating in the organ-legging operation, you think they won't rat your sorry ass out?

The organ-legging industry is dumb. It makes no sense as written.


My condolences. I'm assuming that in Shadowrun, there is a solution to that issue at least for type-O and cloned organs.

Cheers, -- N

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 06:22 AM

As a Barrens resident in need of a new organ, you've got a choice between:

A) Taking a loan with the Mob to buy a Type O liver for 2500 . And then it just works.

B) Paying only 500 to what is generally considered to be the scariest syndicate of all, getting a liver previously used by someone who died in suspicious circumstances, with no real quality control other than Tamanous' word that it's good, and being on expensive immunosuppressants for the rest of your life.



I'd really take the Mob loan.

Posted by: Fikealox Jul 11 2011, 06:28 AM

Maybe take your own advice.



I disagree. The organlegging industry isn't 'dumb'. Organlegging is risky, sure, but so is every illegal activity to some degree or other, including Shadowrunning. In the real world, cooking and selling meth is hugely risky and offers meagre (and wholly inadequate) financial rewards for all but a few of the people involved, but more meth is made and sold every year.

Deciding that the organlegging industry is dumb requires privileging extra-setting presumptions over setting materials. If you start with the presumption that the sale of second-hand organs is financially infeasible and that various stages within the organlegging process are so risky that no-one would partake in it, of course the industry is dumb.

However, to me, and I suspect to Tymeaus, it seems more legitimate to find ways to justify the setting as we are given it than it is to reject explicit setting materials on the strength of incompatible presumptions. To my mind, because we're told (among other things) that the organlegging industry is flourishing; presumptions which are logically inconsistent with the flourishing of the organlegging industry must be rejected. The organlegging industry simply must not be financially unfeasible, because it is flourishing.

If you find it impossible to stretch your imagination to encompass the flourishing of the organlegging industry as it has been described, I just wonder how you're coping with the rest of the setting. Even without the readily available plausible (within the confines of the setting) explanations for Tamanous' flourishing, it is far from the least believable thing in Shadowrun.

Just my 2c.

Posted by: Summerstorm Jul 11 2011, 07:25 AM

Hm... but you can't take the mob-loan. Especially not for 2500. (Well maybe you could... but that is not enough)

An organ, type-O is 6000. We just assume that includes implantation and overhead (because we are nice).

So, now let us begin: WAIT YOU DON't have a SIN? So your medical procedure can't be properly monitored, and you don't have a bio-record? No SIR, not in our hospital. You might want to go to some... OTHER establishment.

Fix: Have it done in the shadows illegaly or buy a SIN.

Ok, welcome to XXX. I see you have a SIN (or paid us extra to just ignore that TINY problem). Let us begin... You have paid the 6000? Ok. I assume you made the security deposit, if it is neccessary for you to claim special procedures, if something goes unexpected wrong (only 95% of the population can take type-o, and of those 5% begin to reject it after a while), or if you need long-term care? Oh... you haven't? It's not that it is likely you need it... we just NEED to be prepared. Ah you might grease a few palms to skip that. But be warned you will get thrown out after the operation... no matter how it went.

OR you could just pay half of all that crap and hope for the best. (Hey, the doctor has an excelent track record)

So i mean: Yeah, runners who earn 20k in a month don't need it. Execs who make 100k don't need it. Even corporate drones who are somewhat useful (but don't have any money) don't need it. But everyone who just CAN't affort 10.000 or so, are illigal immigrants, are overloaded with debts (and now have a sick little girl) or just plain incompatible with Type-O and can't afford the time or money to have something cloned. All NEED "donated" stuff and a cheap "doctor".

I have absolutely no problems imagining that. Don't mix utopiancrystal-nano age crap into my shadowrun *g*.

Also costs for organ "donation": All you need is a RELATIVE up-to date medical database (hacked and stolen from multiple corps, docwagon, hospitals etc.) and someone who didn't make surgeon in university. Some random dropout who knows how to use the tech. And then someone willing to lend you access to (or steal for you) medical facilities.

After that: Some random punk to knock someone out and bring a dude to you. That's like expenses of a thousand bucks per standard victim.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 08:12 AM

People take way bigger Mob loans, to keep a business afloat, start one, buy implants, whatever. That's not stopping someone who really needs it.





Since Type O fits everyone, it's much easier to sell on the black market; more potential customers. You don't need a layer of people to find compatible "donors" and recipients.



Type O by RAW works for pretty much all metahumans. It's vampires and pixies who need something special.

And if implanting is difficult, it's certainly harder with stolen organs than with Type O.

Anyone with a company health plan is going to get Type O. The corporation can just take it out of your wages; it won't be fun, but you won't be spending 100-1000 on immunosuppressants per month.

I don't really see organlegging work well if stolen organs cost more than 5% or so of good replacement organs; but I think the overhead of organlegging should actually be quite high. Harvesting organs shouldn't be all that easy, because only unhealthy donors make really easy targets, and you'd need a large network to match supply and demand at sufficient speed.




Don't get me wrong: I want organlegging in SR. But Type O is cheap enough, and so much better. To make organlegging work, the price of Type O needs to be higher. I think fluff and crunch collide, so I'd change the RAW to suit the fluff. By increasing the cost of Type O organs.

Alternatively: bioware "improvement" organs that cost Essence but are more powerful than normal organs, and normal organs cost roughly the same. Normal people who need a new liver take the LiverPlus; only Sams and Mages actually get Essence-free replacement organs, everyone else can spare the Essence to be "restored and improved".

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 10:33 AM

You fail to grasp something here, the mob will make loans to anyone they can reasonably expect to PAY. They are making a loan with at least a 20% a month interest rate. Where is this poor schmuck going to get the money to pay the interest let alone pay back on the principal. He better have assets, oh wait he would have looked at selling things off in the first place. Is his body worth the money they are loaning him? Probably not. So why woul dth emob ever loan him the money in the first place? The mob wants it's money, not broken kneecaps, or bodies, and it does not make investments in horses they cant kill for the insurance later on.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 11:17 AM

The Mob doesn't always expect people to pay back those loans. If they can't pay them back, the Mob owns them, which can be useful itself.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2011, 12:44 PM

Well, according to RAW cultured organs are no better, organ transplants (as opposed to bioware) cost zero essence no matter what you take. Even 2nd hand organs would cost 1.2*zero...but obviously there needs to be some advantage, otherwise nobody would bother to produce cultured organs


You have any idea what the suppliers of homeopathy or herbal supplements make each year? Fooling people with false health promises is a huge business, and if the alleged miracle cure is criminalized the profits would even grow.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 12:48 PM

Non-metahumans. There isn't any Type O for vampires.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 11 2011, 01:04 PM

Vampires have Regeneration, and I doubt the few sapient critters (who mostly have no SIN and thus no insurance plan) are enough of a market

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 01:14 PM

I am actually quite calm, how about you? Notrice I am not the one using the harsh language, you are.

Nope, I am saying that they do not publish Price Lists for the cops to peruse at their convenience. A Black Clinic is already an illegal operation. Do you think that they are reviewed and inspected by authorities on a continual basis to insure compliance with some standard of operation?



You have a Standard Industry Cost. The Street Cost is a Markdown from there. Isn't that obvious?



And yet, there are industries that have no front that are still illegal (Especially in Shadowrun). I do not try to rationalize a "Legal" option for the Organlegging operation. Black Clinics are ALREADY illegal, the fact that they might also offer Illegal Organs does not change that one iota.



And yet, why would they do so on a living target? You miss my point. If person X goes in for surgery to receive an illegally organlegged organ, why would the cops stop him at a later point to Examine him for said illegal organs? It will not happen. Corruption sees to that.



But you miss the point, there is No "Hawking" going on... You make an arrangement with an organization to provide a service, and you get your cred. Usually, this arrangement is long standing and continuous. You get some consideration, and they get the materials for a baseline industry. Seems pretty amenable to me. Much like the Shadows themselves, If you use everything at your disposal to prosecute crime, then the shadows evaporate. Same for Organlegging. There is an understanding that some things need to be "Ignored" for the culture to function as it is described. With the rampant corruption that is prevalent in Shadowrun, Organlegging can thrive relatively unhindered. Note that it is counter productive to turn on your suppliers. It may happen occasionally, but it will be rare, especially in Shadowrun.

I will agree that in our society today, organlegging is a non-starter for the most part. Not so in Shadowrun.

I think it makes perfect sense as it is written.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 11 2011, 01:38 PM

Also you don't know how Type O interacts with the magus factor. It might be that a Type O organ causes Magic Loss. There is no rule for it, but at least this would explain the existence of cultured organs apart from the customer wants them. Another possibility would be that type O is illegal. Think about Type O skin transplant. Would you still shed skin cells with your DNA?

If nobody cared, you would be right, but there are always some people who care, even for the wrong reasons. The media will jump on a juicy story of people being kidnapped to harvest their organs. Once the media get involved the authorities will have to do something. The other thing is the whole practicality issue. You have a very limited customer base (those that need an organ and either can't afford the legal avenue or don't want to take it). Without Type O you also have a very limited supply of goods. Not only must the organs be in good condition they also need to match the recipient. So you will either need large storage capacity, if storing is possible at all, or you need a lot of manpower to hunt the organs down in time. Testing the victims way before extraction of the organs would also help to have "cheap external storage" but getting them tested would require additional manpower. Lastly working globally would make matching donor and recipient easier but would add additional transport cost. This is all the cost I can think of if organlegging were a legitimate business. The overhead from concealing it will add to that.

Does organletting fit the atmosphere of SR? Yes. Do I think it can be a profitable enterprise with the given rules? No.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 01:51 PM

Actually organlegging exists IRL, where it makes more sense, due to waiting lists for voluntary donations. But the prices are way higher.

The demand for stolen organs in SR isn't nearly as high as that for drugs. Only poor people want them. And they're harder to traffic in than drugs.

Mainstream society doesn't really have any real use for Tamanous. Tamanous doesn't have much to offer to most powerful groups, and they're freaky, so they'd make a very good scapegoat for other criminal syndicates who want to deflect heat.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:37 PM

Hmmmm... I agree and then I disagree...

The game says it works, and that is enough for me. I don't need to spend hours of time trying to make it more plausible than the books say it already is. I have had my 2 Nuyen Point of View inserted.

It works, becuase it says it works. But no worries.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 11 2011, 02:40 PM

Unfortunately that is the case for a lot of things in SR.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:41 PM

I know it exists, but it is not prevalent. I have seen current topics of discussion on this subject. I expect some change to take place in the future, just not sure as to when that change will occur. Unfortunately, some laws (in America at least) will have to be changed before we can addresss this topic in the way that it needs to be addressed.

And yes, Mainstream Society in Shadowrun has absolutely no use for Tamanous. Never argued that it did. But it does have use, and it does have impact and power, or they would not exist.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 02:43 PM

Which I am okay with. I do not see it as Unfortunate. It is a fictional Universe, with its own rules and ways of doing things.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 06:58 PM

If that works for you, go for it, I guess. For me, if I can't find some vaguely rational explanation for something in an RPG, it’s out of the game. In some cases, that means I don’t play some games *at all* as I find their premise to be so ridiculous that I cannot suspend disbelief. With SR, I’ll accept the existence of mana, which allows the cold, hard laws of physics to be circumvented (in certain, specific ways).

Outside of that, anything else must justify its existence or be relegated to the chopping block, posthaste. And as far as I’m concerned, having analyzed the scenario in the SR world, I find no justification for how it could possibly work as a business model, or indeed, how it really makes since at all. [chop!] It’s gone.

I prefer to think for myself. Just because some RPG rulebook says something, doesn’t mean I’ll always take it at face value.

Posted by: Zaranthan Jul 11 2011, 07:07 PM

I actually use this as the basis for my suspension of disbelief in any fantasy game system. The existence of magic means that Physics is NOT the underlying law of existence, therefore nothing needs to obey it. You get people that can vastly exceed the limits of human strength, agility, etc. not through the direct application of magic, but merely because magic EXISTS.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 07:20 PM

A wizard, a corp, a dragon, or something else did it. Justified, as per your acceptance of magic.

Honestly, there are many people who cannot afford health care in the modern day. In 2072, the problem is bigger, more widespread. Any body parts that Tamanous cannot sell for transplants can be sold for food, or used to pay ghouls in their employ. Hell, some people are going to be morally bankrupt enough to have those bodies cooked and eaten simply as a matter of pride and feeling untouchable and powerful. There are certain subjects that a person less acquainted with inequity, brutality, poverty, and desperation would not even consider or understand when thus presented. It would be unthinkable to such a person.

But then, you have a poor, desperate father, trying to feed and protect his kids in the barrens, when one of them gets sick from drinking the polluted water. His child needs a new kidney, and a vat-grown replacement is too expensive. That tamanous guy who stopped by earlier said he'd be happy to arrange the surgery, but he needs a favor or two in exchange, nothing too dangerous compared to where the father is living, and he'll even make a few nuyen extra at the end of it. Now the father has salvation, and an easy source of nuyen if he wants to go deeper into the hole. It's not like anybody cares about his family but him, and these are all just nameless faces he's moving.

Fred down the road, he was a good man. Stood by his morals, up until the day when a few bullets set him low. It was sad that those bullets weren't even aimed for him. Man, he'd be here, drinking with us today if he'd just held onto that Tamanous card. I kind of feel bad, I never told him I still have mine. Well, now I at least don't have to worry what he'd think of me working part time at their clinic, but my saying no won't get me out of this slum and into some decent h*cough cough* ehrm, housing.

Posted by: Fatum Jul 11 2011, 07:23 PM

See, that discussion above is just the reason I suggest handwaving organslegging the way you like it in your campaign.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 07:25 PM

Definitely different from my approach. Defying the laws of physics is *only* possible through the use of mana. In areas with no mana, the laws of physics reign supreme and unchallenged.

I don't actually see how your approach makes any sense at all. The fact that biological life and mundane technology exist, things that existed *before* the introduction of magic, and continue to function after it, is a very good indicator that the mundane laws of physics are scarcely outdated and incorrect. And I would argue that the SR world, at least, supports my view. How well do magical abilities work in mana voids, such as outer space? No mana, no super powers.

That said, if you want to go with your approach, Call of Cthulhu is the game for you.

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 07:35 PM

You *could* go that way, but there's a writing principle I'm fond of, and I try to hold books, movies, RPG's, etc to it:

You're allowed one improbable thing in your story/world, as long as you do something interesting with it.

For SR, that thing is mana. As improbable things go, it's a great choice. With this one improbable thing, you get spells, magical creatures, the metaplanes; a plethora of wonderful ideas are justified with it.

But if you start piling improbable thing after improbable thing all on top of each other, it strains suspension of disbelief. This is ultimately subjective, and everyone's limits are different. I suspect I have higher standards than anyone I've seen here so far as I'm not really willing to accept any big improbable things beyond the existence of mana. Politics, business, medicine, legal issues, social structures, economics, character behavior - all of these must stand on their own two feet as far as I'm concerned, with no "justifications" that really consist of handwaving concerns away.

YMMV...

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 11 2011, 07:59 PM

You forget our RL™ world is diferent from Shadowrun™ world. Both diverge probably from the time of dinossaurs or even earlier.
You can't apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world because the Sixth World is a completely different world.
Life is cheap in the Sixth World. That's why the UCAS' doctrine is not completely worried about issuing milspec armor to every soldier because it is way expensive and soldier's lives are not, that is completely different from the USA's doctrine of minimizing the risk to the lives of their soldiers as best as they can.
Considering that the Sixth World has about 6-8 billions people and something like 80% of them don't have the most basic stuff like clean water, proper housing and proper food.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 08:02 PM

I thought my post above did a good job of explaining WHY organlegging works, and giving examples of 2 different people, 2 different personalities and motivations, to drive a person to use and work for such organizations. If all you're going to do is cherry pick one sentence from it, one that addressed the weakness in your presented argument, then whatever. Saying you'll accept magic basically means that "A wizard did it" or "a dragon did it" is a viable explanation (cop out though it may be). Nobody knows the extent of Tamanous' slimy tendrils, but there are very viable ground-level reasons, plenty of local market in many locations, where Tamanous can prey off of the needs of the unfortunate or poor, not merely for selling their services, but for cheap and loyal labor.

Organ transplants are not the exclusive benefit of organ legging. I have previously (I forget if it was this thread or another) given some alternate ways to use the organs. I'll try to go into more detail:

- amino acids
- pheremones
- horomones
- stem cells (can be harvested from adults, and includes bone marrow)
- fats
- nervous tissue
- replacement/implant body parts
- blood (maybe even 'cattle' for blood farms if we're talking live acquisitions)
- tumors (important for study and research)
- pathological agents
- DNA
- hair
- homeopathic remedies (powdered orc gonads for virility)
- 2nd hand bioware (if they know the target has it) and cyberware
- canniblistic meals (not exclusively for ghouls; that humanis chapter leader secretly loves to have Troll liver for dinner, so that he can be more powerful than his enemies)
- muscles and tendons for repair/replacement
- cartillage
- bones for replacement or even arts and crafts

There's likely more. And Tamanous deals in it all, not always directly. Any body part can be used, preferably all (Let me use all parts of the beast, so that nothing goes to waste!).

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 08:18 PM

Again, I'm saying that I'll accept a big improbable thing *once* (as long as it goes somewhere interesting), but not 50 times. As mana's already taking up that slot for SR, no room for anything else.

As for organlegging, I was indeed thinking exclusively of organ transplants. I hadn't really considered these other uses. I'll bring this up to my gaming group, bounce some ideas around, see what we think of it. If that turns out to be useful in some way, thanks in advance. But organlegging for transplants is still retconned for us. I'm more inclined to believe in a black market for knockoff cloned organs - *that* makes more sense. If you're going to have an illegal medical operation going on, why not grow your own Type O organs - of dubious quality, naturally...

Posted by: suoq Jul 11 2011, 08:24 PM

If you're going to sit around the table with other people and play, then yes, it's much better to "apply politics and economics the same way they work on our world" because it's a common point of reference. Add enough stuff that works different and eventually people are going to get up and leave because they don't understand the unique vision that you're trying to force them into. The further you go from consensual reality, the harder it is for a random person to work with your vision.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find there's a group out there playing "No Awakened" Shadowrun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 08:25 PM

And yet Shadowrun has Multiple Improbabilities...

Mana
Resonance
Matrix
Cyberware
Fantasy Races
Corporate Entities Control the World
The NAN
The TIR's
Life Is Cheap
Etc...

Why do you even Play Shadowrun with all of its Improbablilities. I would think, from your previous post, you would avoid it like the Plague.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 11 2011, 08:25 PM

Funny you mention that. This is the main plot of a Denver Missions (forget which one right now).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 11 2011, 08:27 PM

SR actually has two more core improbabilities: The matrix and 'ware

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 08:27 PM

Owning someone is only useful if they have a position or collateral you can exploit. If they don't which the vast majority of the unwashed SINless fall into the category of NO LOAN. The Mob does not make a habit of making loans to people with no use, and no possessions. In other words they don't make loans to a heroin addict.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 11 2011, 08:29 PM

But they don't. Because if they did, then the Sixth World would basically be a modern world with magic and fantastic creatures and corporations wouldn't control the world.
Sure, coup d'états could have brought some countries down and dragons and elves could take control and found new countries (Tír na n'Óg and Amazonia) but corporations wouldn't even be allowed to dream of extra-territoriality and there wouldn't be masses and masses of SINles.

Posted by: suoq Jul 11 2011, 08:34 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am curious. Is that retconning a "local" thing or a "worldwide" thing? Can criminal organizations set up a Type O lab anywhere in the world where it's possible to do an organ transplant or do backstreet Type O labs tend to only exist in ares with reliable power, water, etc.

Posted by: suoq Jul 11 2011, 08:42 PM

I'm not entirely sure corporations don't have the majority of the power in the world now. It certainly seems to be going in that direction. There's a whole profession (lobbyists) that seems to exist only because of corporate interests. Why not? It's called "Corporatocracy". It's a common theme at various levels, from where a corporation puts it's headquarters to books like "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".We have them now. They're called undocumented aliens.

Corporations running everything and undocumented people about rights are a common theme in politics running from the well documented to completely tin-foil hat, but they're part of the common experience and that helps people work with them.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 08:45 PM

Some things people might not realize is the alternate use for some biological donor material. Harvested blood's plasma is used in the creation of insulin, and medication can be made from just about every gland to treat some disorder or another without even considering derivatives thereof.

Edit:

You need to get the biological material from somewhere....

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 09:15 PM

Actually, those things *have* been altered at our gaming table, I just didn’t want to post an exhaustive list of our house rules (which are easily a dozen pages long).

Mana: Already covered – the one big improbable thing the SR world gets, as it has indeed done something interesting with it.

Resonance: It was previously thought that magic and technology were incompatible (to a great degree). The existence of verifiably Awakened individuals who can’t cast normal spells or summon normal spirits, but have the ability to mimic those abilities inside the matrix has caused quite a stir recently, especially in the magical community where this was previously thought to be impossible. Research continues…

Matrix: You don’t believe in the existence of an evolved internet?

Cyberware: I fail to see why you’ve listed this here. I see no reason why, following current technological developments, that this technology will not exist someday – at least some of it. Some more ridiculous pieces have been retconned (no, I don’t have the full list with me at present). The biggest problem is power – cyberlimbs that bench-press cars and run for days with no recharging are the most laughable pieces.

Fantasy Races: These are magical creatures, so they’re already covered under mana, don’t know why this is listed here.

Corporate Entities Control the World/The NAN/The Tirs: A touch of a problem here. The entire thing with megacorps and extraterritoriality is covered under the Business Recognition Accords, something that, if I recall correctly, came about at around the time as great global unrest, which is actually a good time to introduce new political structures. If the BRA can exist, so can the megacorps (room for debate here, yes, I know). The NAN’s boundaries have been scaled back considerably in our game – UCAS is much bigger. The Tir’s were essentially wars of territorial conquest if I recall correctly, won by secessionist-minded elves with magical support to back them up. Probably time for me to do a thorough re-read of SR history. You’re inspiring me to snip yet more!

Life Is Cheap: Starting to wonder if we’re headed that way now, even in first world nations, as the Great Global Recession rolls on and on. That said, this is toned down in our game.

And this debate is spiraling out of control…

Short version – I have tighter standards for my suspension of disbelief than you do. That said, we’re in the planning stages of a big new campaign – one that addresses pretty much all of these concerns outside of mana.

SHADOWRUN 2012:
The Awakening has just occurred. The point of divergence from our world is December 21st, 2012. That was yesterday. Go.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 09:20 PM

Life is Cheap: Even human and metahuman life is subject to the laws of supply and demand. Tamanous - keeping metahumanity in demand!

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 11 2011, 09:26 PM

And even lobbyists need the government to work, that's why they are lobbyists. The way the corporations work in Shadowrun they don't need governments to work as they work.



So you are telling me that right now 80% of the world population is "undocumented aliens"? (or as it seems the case, the USA population?)
The only period of time that I can think that resembles the masses of SINlees population of the Sixth World to our RL™ world is the industrial revolution and mass immigration from rural areas to urban areas, with people working 10-12 hours a day in a terrible enviroment earning less than what it takes to make a living.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 11 2011, 09:31 PM

Where did you get that figure?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 11 2011, 09:35 PM

I remember something from the second edition as the population of Seattle had some 80-ish% of SINless population, I'm assuming every major sprawl would be along these lines and since the major sprawls are also responsible for the majority of the world population...

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 11 2011, 09:39 PM

If so, that's nuts. Functional, modern cities of consisting of 80% undocumented "non-persons?" No way, I just don't buy it. An underclass, certainly. That *huge* of an underclass?! That's a *feral* city, not a modern city. I think you're describing Lagos, not Seattle.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 11 2011, 09:43 PM

Seattle also has more than normal numbers of SINless because a lot of people fled to it when the NAN took over the surrounding countryside. Enclaves are always a bit strange.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 11 2011, 09:44 PM

So basically irrelevant. I'm pretty sure in 2nd Edition the cost for cloned organs was a lot higher and there was no equally clonable Type O.
Also the figure is pretty much nuts. If 80% of the population would a) not make much money and b) would not pay taxes, the society would not work.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 11 2011, 09:47 PM

Most things in most people's daily lives only exist because of corporate interests. You own a computer and a cell phone, probably. Likely bought your clothes in a store. Drive a car? Ride a bike or a bus? Ever been on the Internet or read a Shadowrun product? Do you grow all of your own food, or do you eat at a restaurant, fast food chain, or pick up groceries at a grocery store? If you do grow all your own food, how do you store it? How do you cook it? Ever take medicine, or have a medical procedure? Ever watch TV? Like sports at all?

Learn to love corporations.

Also, I'm with Tymeaus. Of all the elements of Shadowrun to break suspension of disbelief, it's the comparative costs of organlegging?

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 09:53 PM

After the matrix crash that lead to the 2.0 structure's wireless implementation, most people were SINless. While some was easily salvageable, most such situations were the victims of an overdependence on Matrix 1.0 digital data. This has lead to a new serfdom, with corporate masters commanding their indentured, underpaid servants (an exaggerated oversimplification).

As of 2070, the corporate world has adapted to having many available undocumented workers for cheap and consequence-lite labor. For Seattle, it's easy to understand that most SINners will be living around Downtown, Bellevue, Renton, and Aubern, while the SINless will likely be in the barrens, industrial areas, out of the way places, with the poorer SINners being somewhere between. Add that hiring SINless isn't necessarily illegal in 2070 as its modern equivalent would be in the USA.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 11 2011, 09:55 PM

addressing point B, Texas earns its state revenue through sales tax rather than payroll tax. Makes more sense when undocumented persons may be expending a large share of your resources.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 11 2011, 09:56 PM

It is not really about having tighter standards for Suspension of Disbelief. I live in the real world all day long, Every Day, 365 Days a Year. I enjoy the Dystopian World of Shadowrun, with all of its peculiarities. They are what make the world come alive, as far as I am concerned.

No worries though; you did answer my question. Thanks for the Information.

Posted by: Modular Man Jul 11 2011, 09:57 PM

Well, I think that's why there's only the big players in this business, and only so few of them. A local black hospital would hardly have the resources for this, of course.
Probably there are even some technological advancements so transport and storage are easier than today, maybe even immune supression. If in doubt, magic might help (at least with the former two).

Wouldn't seem to be profitable for them, from my point of view. Nobody likes Tamanous and such anyway, but they're hell of an opponent - they have nowhere else to go, nothing else to do, especially not the ghouls. So if you threaten to take away their business, they will fight like a wounded, cornered animal. Most of the time, they don't even endanger the business sector of other syndicates. They are basically people "not to mess with", and they may have some cash to back them up, too.

Well, thank you, you just gave me a great idea to try... Well, Genewipe modification is somewhat cheap anyway.

Well, back to the original topic:
Did you notice blood fetishes, mentiones in "Digital Grimoire"? It's not specified how these are created, except that it's blood magic, which generally involves human suffering. So other metahumans might be the source... Might even be someone else's bones or scarier. Those things are, according to "Vice", increedingly popular on the streets/in the shadows. This might be a viable side market to organ-leggers.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 09:59 PM

In the Seattle 2072 Sourcebook page 8 offer a non corporate affiliated population percentage of which a large percentage is probably SINless. Look at Puyallup and Redmond for corporate affiliation and compare to the fluff. Yeah the Sixth World is that jacked up. Who cares if half the population controlling 5% of the wealth does not pay taxes. Ever been to a third world country, imagine little kids eating your trash, and smiling because it is the best they have eaten in months. Take that image and superimpose it on the whole world and you have Shadowrun.

Posted by: redwulf25 Jul 11 2011, 10:07 PM

Well, there are other ways you could pay the nuyen back to them, for example your lovely daughter in their brothel. Or even if your business doesn't seem likely to make back the cash maybe they could use it as a front for one of their enterprises. Or taken from an old Leverage episode, the boss just killed somebody and someone needs to take the fall for it.

Posted by: Faelan Jul 11 2011, 10:32 PM

If you have a business there is a good chance you could afford it, and yes they would loan you the money, but you are the exception not the rule. Also your daughter is likely going to wind up addicted to something anyway and living in a brothel while her pimp feeds her addiction. They don't need you to get her. Leverage meh, fun to watch but really not that up on their shit.