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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Cram and Wired Reflexes 1
Posted by: PittsburghRPGA Jul 14 2011, 05:06 PM
I'm not finding this in the rules, and I'm thinking I'm just missing the page, and I didn't find it searching here on dumpshock.
I'm putting together a demo game of SR, and I want one of the PCs to be a former ganger turned street sam.
As such, since it seems very "street ganger-ish", I was thinking of using the moderate addiction drawback (maybe even as part of the permanent genetic infusion drawback).
Specifically, something along the lines of Cram or Jazz.
How would that combine with wired reflexes 1? I'm seeing where wired reflexes doesn't stack with other cyber and bio ware enhancements, but I'm not seeing whether or not drugs count as one.
I.e. would Joe the Ork Ganger get +2 initiative passes and +2 reaction when his wired reflexes are on when he takes a hit of cram? Or just the +1 init pass and +1 reaction?
Note, that I'm not at all looking to break the 4 meat initiative passes rule. I just want something that feels like a street thug with delusions of competence route.
Thanks,
Eric
Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 14 2011, 05:08 PM
They don't stack. "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 14 2011, 05:12 PM
Apart from spending Edge and a few Matrix things that make specific exceptions, nothing that grants additional IPs stacks with any other thing that grants additional IPs.
Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 14 2011, 05:16 PM
Pretty much what Umaro said. Oddly, drugs do stack with the Increase Reflexes spell to a max of 4 IP. More usefully, jazz and cram stack.
Edit- You can make a cocktail of jazz, cram, and kamikaze for +3 IP and a bunch of other stuff. On the other hand without a mage with detox or a good healer on hand, there's a decent chance of your face melting off and your children weeping over your exploded body as you crash.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 14 2011, 05:26 PM
I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)
On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.
But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 14 2011, 05:27 PM
With ones back against the wall, a possible overdose vs a certain enemy is a chance worth taking. Especially if one have lived ones whole life in the barrens and see no exit.
Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 14 2011, 05:32 PM
On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.
But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.
I'm of the opinion that IP boosters shouldn't stack as a general rule but reaction boosters should. That way sammies can take betameth if you want an edge and makes reaction enhancers more useful.
As for combining drugs, Arsenal has rules for taking multiple drugs at once or speedballing. It's not too bad as it's -1 to addiction tests (Arsenal 73).
Edit- On the other hand, I think harsher houserules on crazy drug cocktails are fair. Even though I enjoy playing a gnome on betameth, I'm not too crazy about how SR4 seems to treat drugs as basically magic potions.
Posted by: PittsburghRPGA Jul 14 2011, 05:35 PM
Hida's post made me look up the spell and adapt power to improve reflexes. The adept power says it doesn't stack with other magical or technological enhancements. Since drugs aren't either, I could make a screwed up phys adapt who is hooked on drugs. That's a thought since the one guy seems to love playing D&D monks (he even made a monk in our Mutants and Masterminds game). Permanent Genetic Infusion from RC of Endure with an addiction to Cram (or Jazz or Kamikaze), and Amensia (10) so he doesn't know where it came from. That could work.
Think I'll just make the street sam an alcoholic then. Thanks everybody!
Eric
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 14 2011, 06:14 PM
I'd say drugs are technological enhancements. 
Yes, speedballing (and drug rules in general) should be harsher.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 14 2011, 09:38 PM
On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.
But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.
That's how we play too.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 14 2011, 09:57 PM
Regarding stacking bonuses, I don't see anywhere that says drugs can't stack with each other, even if it's multiple doses of the same drug. Of course for most characters, it can cause problems (if they take multiple doses of drugs with horrible crash effects, like Cram), and more so if they break the guideline for doses before ODing (more doses then body), but I think it should be allowed. Even if the GM should give more addiction tests when it happens.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 14 2011, 10:19 PM
Imo, it is more a case that drugs are the "cheap" solution. The one the desperate and broke reach for to try and keep up with the pace of technology.
Posted by: Udoshi Jul 15 2011, 12:20 AM
It IS worth pointing out that most combat drugs do raise your Reaction, which does help your Initiative, just not your Passes. (because its Int+react+modifiers).
Also, while drugs and ware doesn't stack, its possible to gain a pass just by having drugs give you more passes than your augmentation. So only the best one applies.
Posted by: CanRay Jul 15 2011, 12:21 AM
I thought Cram only gave you +2 Rads and +5 Hit Points.
...
Oh, right, wrong game, sorry.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 12:29 AM
Improved reflexes needs soem errata so badly. Never going to happen but a guy can dream right?
The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:36 AM
The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.
But Why? There is absolutely no ambiguity with the spell at all. When the Rules are so clearcut for the spell, why did you change it?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2011, 01:52 AM
It's not to clarify, it's to nerf.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 02:18 AM
Ah yes... Now I get it...
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 02:35 AM
As others have said, I feel the spell is way better then it should be, it makes it trivial for a mage to get 4 IP's and that shatters game balance and contributes to magicrun which i will not abide.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 02:45 AM
And yet Mages are the only ones that can lose that Boost at a whim because of Background count or being counterspelled. And, the spell is obvious (Glows on the Astral).
I have never had an issue with the spell at all. But each table is different, I guess. No worries, I was just curious.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2011, 02:56 AM
Easy come, easy go. 
I don't see anything wrong with nudging up the cost of the holy grail of Shadowrun (more IPs).
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 06:17 AM
I honestly see it abused a lot in missions, seems like every mage that sits down follows the same formula, boosted reflexes and a sustaining foci. Making a higher force necessary at least puts it out of that realm or less cost effective to do so.
Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 15 2011, 06:33 AM
Guys, these comments are a little ridiculous. Of course every mage gets Improved Reflexes and a sustaining focus, IPs are the "you must be this fast to play Shadowrun" marker that every character has to achieve somehow if they want to be effective. It's just such a ridiculous advantage that it's truly mandatory for everyone who wants to be useful when compared to the rest of the team. Get 3 IP minimum, 4 with Restricted Gear if it's possible/doesn't break the bank. If you have nothing else, use the drugs mentioned in this very threat, but get them somehow.
Seriously the first thing I do when making a new character of any type is looking at how to increase initiative passes for this character type and putting that in there. And really, Improved Reflexes and a Sustaining Focus 3 are actually far more expensive BP wise than Wired Reflexes 2 for 3 passes, and while Restricted Gear + Spell + Focus does compare favorable to Restricted Gear + Wired Reflexes 3, as mentioned they do have many drawbacks that the cyberware doesn't have.
I don't know, I just don't see the problem here.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 15 2011, 06:49 AM
I think the situation might be that not every table has the same style of play as your table. At some tables, not every character needs 3 IPs. Some tables, maybe noone needs that many.
I hope I wasn't just trolled or missed a sarcasm tag or something 
Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 15 2011, 07:03 AM
I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.
I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.
Posted by: phlapjack77 Jul 15 2011, 07:39 AM
Ok, no worries
I think it's really just a case of play-style, then. I've been in groups where what you describe is the norm, and groups that only a few had 2+ IPs. Both pretty fun types of games, it just depends on whether combat drives the game or other things do.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 09:14 AM
I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.
Am i suprised they follow the formula? No I am not. Do i feel that the formula is incorrrect when the mage is easily as fast as the street sammy? Yes.
All the previous editions it was, you can warp reality or you can move fast/often. Now thanks to easy peasy boost reflexes you can both warp reality and move fast and often. 1 spell pick replaces several points worth of essence isn't right with me and that's before we get into conversations about sustaining foci.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 09:30 AM
Well, without Restricted Gear it's only 3 IPs, and without the reaction increase that normally accompanies IP boosters. So it's still among the worst of the IP enhancers.
But then, I've seen many posters resent the idea of magic in Shadowrun in general, so yeah.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 15 2011, 09:33 AM
I think the problem with the Increased Reflexes spell isn't that you can get IPs with a spell per se, but that you can get that 4th IP easier than all the other methods. All the implant versions are extremely expensive; getting it with the spell should be too.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 09:41 AM
I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.
With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 11:05 AM
4PP is pretty heft for most adept builds that leaves you 1 or 2 left over max. They get those 4IP's without restricted gear or the like but it's most if not all of what their going to do. Mage can do the 4IP's as an afterthought to all their other wiz bang abilities.
-2 DP is nothing and can be mitigated with spirit services, sustaining foci or just putting up with the DP.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 15 2011, 11:20 AM
Huh, I hadn't noticed they'd lowered the cost in SR4A.. this is more reasonable
That's what a Sustaining Focus is for.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 11:28 AM
The sustaining foci available at chargen cap at F3, which is Ini+2 and 3 IP. To get the full 4 IP, you need Restricted Gear, which IMO makes it rather cost prohibitive.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 11:36 AM
Oh darn you might have to limit yourself to 3IP's at chargen or give up 5 points. My heart bleeds for the mages.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 11:47 AM
My point is that everyone (except maybe TMs) get 3 IPs for cheap out of the box, and 4 IPs with Restricted Gear.
But whatever, mages are supposed to be worse then everyone else, otherwise it's *gasps* MAGICRUNTM
Oh, please spare me all the bickering about mages...
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 12:06 PM
Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.
So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 12:27 PM
So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.
Well, the benefits are not the same. Everyone else gets +1 Reaction per point of IP enhancer, which greatly enhances survivability in fights. Also, the spell is the only IP enhancer that can be taken away from you mid-fight. A F3-4 spell is ridiculously easy to dispel.
So if you factor in the ease of detection (glowing on the astral plane), lack of reaction enhancement, and the fleeting nature of the spell itself, then yes, the costs are comparable.
Posted by: suoq Jul 15 2011, 12:32 PM
By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.
Posted by: Mäx Jul 15 2011, 12:36 PM
And if your warriors way adept, you can get it for 3 PP or if your GM allows you to also geas it you get it for 2PP
Suoq: By the mage(s) that the oppositon has.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 12:36 PM
By the opposition? Who happen to have mages, or rented the service of a mage, who in turn lent them a bound Guardian or Guidance spirit?
And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.
Posted by: suoq Jul 15 2011, 12:45 PM
And that's why Lurker calls it magicrun. The baseline assumption is that the opposition has mages because the runners have mages and the runners have mages because the opposition has mages.
Now that the horse has been raised from the dead and beaten until it's dead again, can we get on with the drug abuse?
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 12:51 PM
And why exactly is that bad? Magic is part of the game, deal with it. If you want to play pure Cyberpunk with SR rules, then don't call it SR. Call it Cyberrun! *sarcasm*
At the risk of violating that horse's corpse: What do people here think about the magic drugs? Stuff like Lil' Smoke, Eternal Flower or Rock lizard blood?
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 01:07 PM
And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.
So wait your argument that increase reflexes is balanced is that the opposition that might use their action to fireball you might instead use it to dispel your increased reflexes?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:09 PM
I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.
The vast majority of characters, at our table, come out of Character Generation with only 2 IP's. The Occasional 3 IP's is not unheard of, and I have only seen 1 Character in play that started with 4 IP. Even the mages with Increased Reflexes usually only go for the Sustaining Focus at Force 3 (so 3 IP). Hell, there are some Mages that don't even start with the Spell, ort choose to not have the sustaining focus...
Not that IP's have not increased in play, of course, but it is apparently not as common as at other tables. *shrug*
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:11 PM
With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.
As an Adept, you can get those 4 IP's for the whopping cost of only 2 PP, if you desire. Not all that hard to get, actually.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:13 PM
Of course, you could always spend edge to remove the cap on Hits, at which point, the F3 Focus works just fine.
Posted by: Elfenlied Jul 15 2011, 01:13 PM
They're not going to use fireball. Not with the inane changes to Counterspelling vs Indirect Combat spells. It's not just counterspelling; Wards and BC seriously hamper the spell too. Also, even (certain) spirits can counterspell too.
My point is that Increase Reflexes is balanced to other common IP boosters by being obvious, not providing reaction boni, and counterable in combat.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:26 PM
So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.
And yet the Street Sam can get 4 IP's for the Low Low Essence Cost of 1.5 Essence, Standard. Yes, it is 240,000 Nuyen, but so what. It is not that hard. Yes, I know, that is 53 BP, as compared to the Mages Minimum Required 37 BP for only 3 IP (A Magic of at least 2 (10 BP), the Magician Quality (15 BP), The cost of the Focus (6 BP), the Bonding Cost of the Focus (3), and the cost of the actual Spell (3); so a final cost of 37BP). But that is often irrelevant.
And as I mentioned Earlier, an Adept can get 3 or 4 IP for 2 PP (or slightly less) (5 BP for Adept, 10 BP for +1 to Magic and another 10 for the Quality to do so, for a total cost of 25 BP)...
In the end, it costs the same or less BP for the Non-Awakened Street Samurai to have 4 IP (and significantly Less for just 3 IP, only 7 BP) through Cyberware, than any of the Awakened Characters, Wired 3 is 100,000 Nuyen (20 BP) and the Restricted gear Quality is only 5 BP. Total Cost: 25 BP for the Wired (or 53 for the Synaptic Accelerator 3 w/Restricted Gear).
And a Juicer Sam can get 3 IP for less than 1 BP, and can continue to pay out for that ability for quite a while before that 1 BP is exhausted.
Not exactly sure what you are arguing here LurkerOutThere. The Awakened generally pay more for the ability to go fast than any other character.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:28 PM
By the Mage in your team. he does do counterspelling, right?
Or maybe one of his Spirits, there are spirits that are capable of such as well.
Or maybe he just entered a Background Count. Whoops, there goes at least one IP, possibly more.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2011, 01:45 PM
… And those are why it's so trivially easy to *get* 4IP in the first place, especially using that godawful F1 sustaining + Edge trick. We're just lucky there are a *couple* of minor tradeoffs, instead of none. And, of course, the mages can always get Synaptics later.
Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 15 2011, 01:55 PM
I made my Combat Medic mage with synaptic booster 1. I know that if I ever get a chance to play I'll run into background count and have my uber "I'z goes FAST!" doodad break on me. Synaptic Booster doesn't break, is hard to detect, and is Essence friendly.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 01:59 PM
Not sure that I would want to take my chances with the Force 1 Focus and Edge, way to easy to get rid of.
Mages getting Synaptics is a viable option, as long as they do not mind losing 2 points of Magic in the process, which I see as a havey tradeoff, but doable...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 02:01 PM
Hard to argue that... which makes the tradeoffs a little more hefty, of course.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 15 2011, 02:22 PM
Not that IP's have not increased in play, of course, but it is apparently not as common as at other tables. *shrug*
Every game we played our Street Sam would start with WR 2 or MBW 2, getting 3 IP's, the stealth guy (me) would have no cyber, only bioware, but I wouldn't spend money on synaptic boosters, so I would end up using kamikaze. The mage would use spells to boost its IP's and the face would use drugs or perhaps would have WR 1.
Only once, a player began with 4 IP's and that was me playing a Jaguar Shapeshifter Adept spending 4 PP in Improved Reflexes 3, 1 PP in Combat Sense 2 and 1 PP in Improved Perception 4. I later got enough karma to increase my Magic to 7 and got Improved Damage 4.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 02:28 PM
Only once, a player began with 4 IP's and that was me playing a Jaguar Shapeshifter Adept spending 4 PP in Improved Reflexes 3, 1 PP in Combat Sense 2 and 1 PP in Improved Perception 4. I later got enough karma to increase my Magic to 7 and got Improved Damage 4.
It is interesting to see what other tables do... Thanks for the Information...
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 02:31 PM
And as I mentioned Earlier, an Adept can get 3 or 4 IP for 2 PP (or slightly less) (5 BP for Adept, 10 BP for +1 to Magic and another 10 for the Quality to do so, for a total cost of 25 BP)...
In the end, it costs the same or less BP for the Non-Awakened Street Samurai to have 4 IP (and significantly Less for just 3 IP, only 7 BP) through Cyberware, than any of the Awakened Characters, Wired 3 is 100,000 Nuyen (20 BP) and the Restricted gear Quality is only 5 BP. Total Cost: 25 BP for the Wired (or 53 for the Synaptic Accelerator 3 w/Restricted Gear).
And a Juicer Sam can get 3 IP for less than 1 BP, and can continue to pay out for that ability for quite a while before that 1 BP is exhausted.
Not exactly sure what you are arguing here LurkerOutThere. The Awakened generally pay more for the ability to go fast than any other character.
Again, the raw BP numbers don't tell the whole tale (even if the mage has it better in that case when you don't count the foci, which their not required to have, it just keeps them from having to take a -2 penalty or sustaining it somehow. A street sam or or adept boosting their IP counts si giving up a signifigant portion of their power points, essence, or karma to do so. A mage doesn't really give up ANYTHING but one spell slot. His magic attribute lets him do other things, his magician quality lets him do other things. You can't count that as part of the cost when that's not all it does. Wired reflexes is five essence the other option as you so astutely point out is 240k nuyen again taking up a signifigant chunk of starting resources for somethign that does one thing only.
The problem with increased reflexes remains it costs nothing the mage isn't already paying for anyway unless you decide to slap it in a sustaining focus. Otherwise unless your running into wards everytime you turn around or rating 3 or higher background count or are getting astrally perceived a lot (and even then so what, they see you have a improved reflexes spell, or you invest int he masking metamgic like you were going to anyway). It's still the cheapest game in town when it coems to IP's. It has some drawbacks but their only drawbacks if the encounter is written specifically to penalize you.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 02:51 PM
The problem with increased reflexes remains it costs nothing the mage isn't already paying for anyway unless you decide to slap it in a sustaining focus. Otherwise unless your running into wards everytime you turn around or rating 3 or higher background count or are getting astrally perceived a lot (and even then so what, they see you have a improved reflexes spell, or you invest int he masking metamgic like you were going to anyway). It's still the cheapest game in town when it coems to IP's. It has some drawbacks but their only drawbacks if the encounter is written specifically to penalize you.
I'll not argue that the mage has other things that he can do, as he is ultimately versatile, where others really are not, but there are drawbacks to that versatility (which have been beat to death in other threads).
The drawbacks for magic are setting based, not GM based. The setting penalizes Mages. All the GM does is enforce those penalties. Is it only a single spell slot? Yes. And yet, I have seen mages that do not start with that particular spell because they have other spells that they want more. I have played a Magician character that did not pick that particular spell up, until after having received almost 150 Karma. Though it does indeed help, it is NOT a requirement to have 3+ Passes to survie the Shadows. You just have to be smarter about it when you only have one or two IP's.
Anyways...
Posted by: Faraday Jul 15 2011, 08:24 PM
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 15 2011, 08:34 PM
It's only an option, one of many excellent options the mages have, and can switch between more or less at will. That's the whole point. Even that Health Sustaining focus is good for many other spells, again at-will.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 15 2011, 09:04 PM
Which is at it should be... Magic is extremely versatile. It is supposed to be.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 15 2011, 09:39 PM
And, yes, as a runner, you should be running into wards almost everywhere. And/or biofiber, which are almost the same thing. Wards last weeks, and have no cap on max, as long enough astral perceptives are available to work on it. In some cases, Wards are permanent, though that doesn't so much matter for runners, unless they are setting up long term safe houses and don't want anyone breaking into them astrally for any reason.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 15 2011, 11:35 PM
The thing is wards actually don't do much for a given corp or organization. They keep spirits out until the spirits batter down the wards, how big a boon that is depends on how often your organization has to deal with hostile spirits (and how much interferance their willing to put up with to their own paranormals). For most joints logicly wards arn't really that likely as they don't serve a constructive purpose for the money/time spent to set them up. Biofiber is a bit better in that it can be worked into actual structures and maintained permanently with minimal upkeep but it still boils down to "how much do you care about yoru buildings astral space" unless your doing highly sensitive research of an astral nature you likely don't care. Otherwise you put up wards over your security shack to provide you a few seconds warning before a spirit bashes in, manifests and gasses all your guards and you call it a day.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 16 2011, 10:39 PM
I think Wards are mainly a warning system; to be aware that some magician is astral-scouting the premises.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 17 2011, 02:18 AM
Pretty much. Most free/wild/otherwise spirits don't care, and if they see a mana barrier, just go another way. Otherwise, they have ways around it anyway, ways they don't use for Mages unless a service is expended.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 17 2011, 04:06 AM
Except for the one time you get a warning of an attack there are a lot of times (presumably) that you'll see false positive and if you are worried about astral scouting there are better options then wards.Even preventing astral scouting is of minimal use. Others might differ but I just can't see wards being used all that often as a security measure. Worked in as part of other measures at place your sure you don't care about astral movement but it's a balancing act. A completely mundane corp doesn't care about it's astral space. A corp that does care will employ it's own paranormals and mages but then those mages and paranormals will be inconvenienced by the ward.
Posted by: Marwynn Jul 17 2011, 05:47 AM
I think the opposite though, a mundane corp will want some non-mundane protection. Biofiber walls, wifi inhibiting paint and wallpaper, and perhaps a Ward on the non-wireless enabled nexus/server.
Otherwise, a Spirit can simply manifest in there and break it or steal it. With a Ward you'll have a warning at least that it's been breached. That is, if the company that provided the ward calls you or alerts the corp that handles your security. (Unless of course the Warder sent the Spirit in the first place...)
And that's a deliberate attack, can you imagine if it's just a bunch of awakened punks? A small business may not want it, like a mom and pop store. But certainly a small office of some sort.
I see Wards as fairly common things akin to a chainlink fence.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 17 2011, 05:54 AM
A spirit that breaks in to steal something out of your building still has to get it out of your building the old fashioned way, the ward really doesn't prevent that. Any spirit capable of being a threat is capable of battering down many wards. Awakened punks arn't a problem, what are they going to do from the astral that they can't do from the physical.
Wards are like a chainlink fence in a elephant enclosure. It might stop the small ones but ones you actually have to be concerned about it's not going to do anything to.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 02:09 PM
Except, of course, provide a warning that the big ones are there.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 17 2011, 02:22 PM
Sorry for the nitpick, but i think the word is materialize. Manifest is what watchers and astrally projecting mages do to talk to living beings. In that state they are not physically present, more like a local hallucination.
Btw, can a spirits be ordered to materialize in a location that the wizard can not see?
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 17 2011, 02:28 PM
Maybe if the caster could describe it well enough.
TJ: So what you spend thousands and thousands of nuyen to hire a mage to give you what, 6 seconds of warning, I just don't see it happening especially consideerign the inconvenience it poses to any magical security you have.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 17 2011, 02:33 PM
TJ: So what you spend thousands and thousands of nuyen to hire a mage to give you what, 6 seconds of warning, I just don't see it happening especially consideerign the inconvenience it poses to any magical security you have.
As opposed to that ultra high tech security system that only activates after the object it's "protecting" is taken?
I'm sure laser trip wires cost thousands and thousands of nuyen to install for it to be effective, and they don't give much warning time, either.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 17 2011, 02:34 PM
Without Wards/Biofiber, how would you even be aware if a mage used Astral Projection to scout out your building? Then he's be able to tell his 'runner buddies about the layout, guards and so forth.
It might not stop him, but it warns you that something's going on.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 17 2011, 02:36 PM
It might not stop him, but it warns you that something's going on.
In which case, you re-do the scheduling for the security guards, make replacement times more random for the next week. They are hired for security, I'm sure they'd understand if the director informed them of a security breach.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 02:53 PM
TJ: So what you spend thousands and thousands of nuyen to hire a mage to give you what, 6 seconds of warning, I just don't see it happening especially consideerign the inconvenience it poses to any magical security you have.
Magical Security can be included in the Wards such that they are not affected. And 6 Seconds is a LONG time when you have magical Security available. Most small companies will likely budget such expenses for certain areas. ALL MEGACORP Facilities will most definitely Budget such expenses for Certain Areas. The difference is that Small companies will likely have very few places that require such protection, while a Megacorp will likely have MANY such areas. And you make some assumptions here. Why would you charge Thousand upon Thousands to have a Ward Emplaced? A Megacorp pays no such fees, they just ask their on staff Magicians to provide them as part of their services. As for everyone else. The typical Cost to establish a Ward is 100
per hour. Kind of puts a crimp on your Thousands upon Thousands of Nuyen theory, doesn't it? Here is the relevant Quote...Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2011, 02:59 PM
Not 'a ward', but 'enough wards to have full coverage'. It probably adds up a bit. But yes, they're cheap because they suck.
Posted by: Irion Jul 17 2011, 03:10 PM
Just for the record:
Adpets have the easiest way known:
Way of the warrior + geasa= 4 IPs for 2 PP. Nice thing to have.
The only better deal would be synaptic booster, but there you have to put down a lot of cash.
The IP enhancement for mages sucks. Sorry.
You run into BC and your great 4 IPs get down to 3. (or your 3 down to 2).
If you can't afford a sustaining foci Force 5 or 6, you may as well drop it. Because Cram is just "safer".
Better one additional IP in the pocket, than 3 in the wind.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 17 2011, 03:11 PM
Opinions Differ, I guess. I like wards, even little ones at Force 3-4 (Typical Mage Ability) have purpose, and if you are aspecting them as Alarm Wards (See Street Magic) it is highly likely that if you encounter them, it is far too late to do anything about them, since you hvae already come in contact with them.
A more potent "Shadowrunner" level ward can be a serious barrier, if placed startegically.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Jul 17 2011, 03:12 PM
Psh. Oh no, you go from 4 to 3 sometimes? You're a mage, so you certainly *can* afford a nice focus, until the day you just buy the Synaptics.
TJ, I'd charge significantly more cash for advanced wards.
Posted by: longbowrocks Jul 18 2011, 04:16 AM
Adpets have the easiest way known:
Way of the warrior + geasa= 4 IPs for 2 PP. Nice thing to have.
The only better deal would be synaptic booster, but there you have to put down a lot of cash.
The IP enhancement for mages sucks. Sorry.
You run into BC and your great 4 IPs get down to 3. (or your 3 down to 2).
If you can't afford a sustaining foci Force 5 or 6, you may as well drop it. Because Cram is just "safer".
Better one additional IP in the pocket, than 3 in the wind.
As you pointed out, the mage can cast higher. However, when the adept runs into a BC, he either needs to give up some of his IP's immediately, or buffer them by taking points out of his other skills.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 18 2011, 05:45 AM
TJ: For the record TJ I was pulling the thousands number out from somewhere, I'm pretty sure it was more expensive previously. I will also go reread Alarm Wards, maybe i am talking out of my hat. As it stands I still don't see them all that usefull or common for reasons i've mentioned. It's like putting up a security system that only one guy can allow or deny access to and only 1 guy gets an email of if there's a break in.
Posted by: Irion Jul 18 2011, 06:59 AM
@longbowrocks
Which is not such a big deal, because you normally have some powers not usable in the current situation.
If you are out to hunt yourself a pack of ghules, you do not need bonus dices to social skills.
(Right, out of chargen it is not that easy, because you only have 5 Points to throw around, but make it magic 7 and it ain't that bad...)
@LurkerOutThere
It is even worse: It will trigger every time some spirit or other magical critter goes through it.
Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 05:54 PM
It is even worse: It will trigger every time some spirit or other magical critter goes through it.
This is true. However, most spirits would see a ward, and go around, unless something they are actively after is on the other side. Dual Natured creatures may be more of a problem, however, especially guard animals.
Even so, my interpretation of the rules (SR4A 194, Mana Barriers) and that it states the creator of a mana barrier may allow others to do so as well, they can create a barrier that allows the paracritters/ awakened guards to pass without getting false positives. THis would cut down on that problem, while opening a solution to savvy mages. (But, like anything else, no security system is perfect)
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Jul 18 2011, 06:28 PM
Adpets have the easiest way known:
Way of the warrior + geasa= 4 IPs for 2 PP. Nice thing to have.
The only better deal would be synaptic booster, but there you have to put down a lot of cash.
The IP enhancement for mages sucks. Sorry.
You run into BC and your great 4 IPs get down to 3. (or your 3 down to 2).
If you can't afford a sustaining foci Force 5 or 6, you may as well drop it. Because Cram is just "safer".
Better one additional IP in the pocket, than 3 in the wind.
Choose your geasa wisely then.
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