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Posted by: Smirnov Jul 18 2011, 07:06 PM

Good Day!

I'm aiming to create a mundane security/weapons specialist with as little augmentations as possible, and right now I'm in a desperate need of an advice from more experienced players. Is this lind of the character even has the right to live or lacking additional IPs from either magic or augmentation, he will severely lack in effectiveness? (That's my major consern right now as my personal experience says that IPs rule the battlefield).
What are the options for such character if there are any?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 18 2011, 07:15 PM

Well the game system by design iencourages people to go magic or tech as ther'es really little inducement to do neither (outside of roleplay which is reason enough but not setting correct). You can squeeze a couple IP's out of drugs. I have a character who is using a datajack (or blech, trodes) plus a cheap comlink with an agent. Installed on it. The agent responds to simple phrases (which is a free action) and triggers the autoinjectors in the characters clothing for Cram and Jazz. Just be prepared to pass some addiction tests.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 18 2011, 07:24 PM

You can always try to do something like adrenaline surge and just be really really effective right out of the gate. Going first is quite important. You'll still want more IPs, but you can follow my common suggestion of cram, jazz, or kamikaze. If you need more IPs, you could spend edge for that extra pass (you'll have a high edge right?). You also go command rigger and use a drone for lots of IPs that way.

For better or for worse, SR is a game where you buy your awesome with BP/karma or cash. Overall, you'll got a uphill struggle.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 18 2011, 07:46 PM

All the combat skills fill basically the same primary niche: Roll agility+skill to hurt people. So spending points on a bunch of combat skills like the corebook specialist is a recipe for mediocrity even with half-decent 'ware choices. I suggest you tweak the idea to lean more towards the security specialist/spotter side of the equation. A character with points in Hardware, Automatics, Perception, sensory 'ware, a manatech dealing fixer and a couple sensor drones is a helluva lot easier to make a viable part of the team than some unaugmented goober who just has Firearms and Close Combat at 4.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 07:48 PM

What they are saying is generally true. In order to be a really effective mundane with bare-minumum augmentations, you need to how to use the system, and rely on the GM's open-mindedness.

On GM openmindedness, I've been working on a Martial Maneuver (Arsenal, 158) to allow mundanes without cyber a little more flexibility with IPs.

Martialist reflexes
The character is capable of moving extremely quickly, Delivering multiple punches and kicks to many opponents at once. In game terms, this Maneuver grants the practitioner an additional IP each time it is taken. The maximum number of times this maneuver is available is 3, or the highest number of ranks in any one martial art the Character possesses the quality for. These IPs do not stack with IPs from other sources, and have drawbacks of their own.
For each round the character uses this ability, he takes Fatigue damage equal to number of times he has taken this maneuver. If a character has 6 boxes of fatigue or more, he cannot use this maneuver until he rests.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 18 2011, 07:50 PM

@OP: If you want minimum augmentation (High Essence) go with a synaptic booster level 1 or 2 depending on how you feel about spending money. The booster will give you extra IP's without blowing your Essence to hell and gone.

Hunter... I don't know what to say. It sounds nice, but why would ANYONE want to get 'Ware or magic to boost their IPs when they can have "Act without Thought"? Most fights are not that long (don't last longer than 1 or 2 rounds) and you can rest between uses. Hell, if you're a mage, just use a Heal spell and you're good to go.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 18 2011, 07:51 PM

For what it's worth I wouldn't put anything in that rewards people for not taking magic or tech, you want to be the special snowflake that's groovy, you have to live with that choice.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 07:54 PM

If that is in relation to my post, I don't feel the ability is a reward. If anything, it could be downright suicidal (If you need to take that much fatigue damage, it restricts other thngs you can do, as well. Like running, and swimming.)

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 18 2011, 07:56 PM

Unless you have bi-cardiac. That gives you two extra boxes of fatigue damage.


I agree with you 100%. My combat medic mage, not only has magic, but he also has 2 points of 'Ware.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 07:59 PM

You may be correct. It's a work in progress, among other things I've considered. Of course, I am also looking at it from the perspective of my own setting, which I use both optional rules for slower healing (Body -wounds for P, will or body-wounds for S) and I limit Heal to working within the Force rules (the attempted damage =Force. If force>magic attribute drain is physical. Cannot attempt to heal damage greater then magic x2. But, the drain is F/2-2.

I can certainly see your side. In a standard game, it is a killer ability. It's also a house rule, and can much more easily be adapted, if allowed at all (change the fatigue damage to physical damage, for example). It's not everyone's bag of tea, just giving an option to think about.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 18 2011, 08:07 PM

Basically, you should just be aware that you're paying a significant amount of effectiveness to be a Special Snowflake. If you're cool with that, don't worry about optimization because you're already shooting yourself in the foot in that regard. If you aren't, play something else.

Posted by: Kliko Jul 18 2011, 08:10 PM

Remember your team-role. You are the support guy, you use commons sense stuff like tactics to save the day.

Also, do combat drugs when the bullets start flying your way.

I liked in 3rd edition how like small unit tactics could give you an initiativ bonus (and hence extra IP's).

Posted by: Marwynn Jul 18 2011, 08:38 PM

You can be quite effective with even just 1 IP.

Devote some money for Drones. Not as a Rigger, but more like a Robot Commander. A Fly-Spy in a good angle versus some foes in cover means you can use it as a spotter.

With a Grenade Launcher and a variety of grenades you can provide smoke/thermal smoke, big distractions and heavy enough firepower to scare off some corpsec. You can even be the Suppressive Cover guy. Dual wield some SMGs and you can lay down two suppressive fire zones that are overlapping.

Drugs are also a good choice provided you're willing to risk addiction.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 18 2011, 09:27 PM

Firstly, thanks for all replies and ideas. That's quite a number of options, and coming here for advice certainly was a good idea!

True. But setting-wise Irish Tir elf who was unlucky to be born without magic would be an example. Tir culture highly disapproves of augmentation, but as far as I understand, not everyone gets to be awakened.
But my decision was more influenced by the fact, that we already got a bunch of spellcasters and near-zero Essence guys, so I wanted to make a different character.



That's the whole point. I'm ready to pay for being that special snowflake, but I don't want to be a burden, as I have such example already. In one of our groups we have an augmentation-free mundane Face, and I sometimes find him lacking in possible actions, despite Face dealings being in my opinion the least augmentation/magic dependent role. And I go into combat side of things, the gap would be even more obvious.

So I'm ready to look for alternative tactics, less -ware and spell dependent actions. Ideally I want to find a role and means of fulfilling it that wouldn't be hampered by this 'purity'. But being just a litlle behind is not big deal. On the other hand, if all I can possibly so is to be that snowflake, I'd better start looking for another character concept.


So, to sum up the ideas, I can go for drugs, drones (idea which I like the most), alpha+ bioware, manatech and some advantages like Initiative boost or buying IPs with edge (playing a mage before, I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder!), which is morу like a Tir Ghost to me. That's probably the way to go!

And one question about manatech - is it possible to get spell effects as manatech?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 09:34 PM

Not as far as I'm aware. The best you are going to get as far as spell-like abilities is using magical compounds, like Shade or Animal Tongue, or somehow conning a spirit into service.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 18 2011, 09:37 PM

Bugger. Because having spell-tech would certainly solve a lot of problems

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 18 2011, 09:54 PM

Yes it would. And make magic far too overpowered (especially with how much people on here seem to think it is anyway.)

That said, there should be more of a defence against magic, for personal use.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 18 2011, 10:01 PM

Well, I would certainly second the notion that magic is powerful. Maybe not allpowerful, but given a bit of time to prepare for the encounter, my Mage could achieve almost anything and was restricted only by the amount of spells avaliable to him.

But that's probably offtopic, and to stay on topic, I should add that I can squeeze a bit more from the GM in terms of avaliable gear than normally allowed [queue angel-face smiley here]

Posted by: StevenAngier Jul 18 2011, 10:58 PM

Things like Senseware and Headware are nearly mandatory for EVERY character (at least the fluff suggests that). Besides that, most veteran employees in the security branche WILL have some sort of initiative boost because the opposition WILL go this way also. Have a look at standard cybersuites for security corps or example grunts in this field of employment. Part of the dystopian theme of Shadowrun is that in order to survive you have to sacrifice at least part of your humanity to even have a chance.

Even non-awakened Irish-Tir-Elves lean towards augmentation. The fluff just suggests that they try to have it as covered up as possible to hit the "back to nature"-theme. Hands down.. do you really think the Danaan families would NOT want their security to be top notch?

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 18 2011, 11:29 PM

You can be a VR joystick rigger who wouldn't be all that much better with tons of augmentation. You almost certainly want some augmentation, but you'd be looking at more like 2 Essence or so, rather than almost all of it.

How it works:

You want a good Commlink with a high response. You want a good Command program. High rated command programs are not super-duper expensive. You want on your commlink Response Enhancers and Simsense Accelerator, and Optimized (Command), and you want the gear to hot-sim. You want implanted a Simsense Booster (.5 essence), Reflex Recorders (Infiltration, Shadowing, Perception) (.3 essence), and an Attention Coprocessor (.3 essence), for .95 essence of stuff.

You yourself want high Intuition, high Gunnery (this should probably be your 6), Infiltration, Shadowing, and Perception. You really, really want Codeslinger: Control Device. You should probably have at least some Pilot Ground Craft and Pilot Aircraft. You can get a lot of mileage out of First Aid because you can Control Device a medkit and roll First Aid+Command.

Other than that, you can more or less do whatever else you want with your remaining points. High edge is probably a good investment. The only thing that could make you better at joystick rigging is being an adept and having Improved Ability for some of your skills, but it wouldn't make you dramatically better.

Ideally you would stay in the van, hotsim, and Remote Control (or Issue Command) to drones, and try to avoid physical combat entirely. You can be perfectly effective while doing this. If you are forced to fight physically I recommend drugs and/or running for your life.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 12:19 AM

Fair point, notes taken!


I assumed they would have 'lesser' metas wire themselves to hell while they, true masters of life, reap the benefit


Thanks for the input! I'll look into all these options, maybe it is what I need.


I was thinking about first strike.
Assuming all goes well, I have my drones, I fight with a team and so on. Then I have a role. I can support other combatant, create destractions, be a spotter/coordinator and so on. But it will, sooner or later, come on the other side of the lucky coin. Sometimes things go bad, they always go bad. That's where I need to take down a guy or two. As it is worst-case scenario, I can't run away, help is not coming and the guy is pretty bad-ass himself. So I need to take him down or at least disable myself, in as little action as possible. Assuming I can win the initiative, is there a viable alpha-strike in the mechanic?


And an unrelated question - are there anywhere solid numbers on capatilisations of corporations depending on their rating?

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 19 2011, 12:53 AM

Okay, so more what can you do to be ready if you get into a physical fight in your meat body without help?

First, try to avoid this by using a Rigger Cocoon. Another good idea is to make sure you have an armed drone near your physical body at all times - you can Control Device it to kill people much more effectively than you can kill people yourself, even when only in AR. But in case you can't avoid it:

1) Own and wear proper armor. FFBA and Softweave, then make sure you have as much as you can put on encumbrance-wise. Especially if your goal is more not getting killed than winning fights, you're better off focusing on having a good Body score and nice but inobvious armor than anything else.

2) The easiest way to be effective is to use a one-handed weapon like an SMG with a Cyberarm that's been customized and enhanced to have maxed Agility. Even if you suck (0 Automatics), you can get a modified Ingram SuperMach with enough RC to do a long wide/long wide or a full wide, have a 9 agility arm, smartlink for another 2, and be rolling 10 dice and penalizing dodge. Use Stick-and-shock or chem rounds loaded with something like DMSO+Slab, or DMSO+Gamma-scopalamine, or something else similarly nasty (that replaces base damage). Of course this requires you have a cyberarm.

3) Jazz and Cram are the way to get extra IPs as a mundane, and they stack.

4) Wear chemically sealed armor and drop Chem Grenades loaded with chemicals as in 2. Don't dick around with inhalation vector toxins, those are much easier to defend against.

5) 2 and 4 lead you to hitting someone with a chemical attack and then waiting until the pass ends for them to drop. Thermal Smoke grenades and Flashpaks are a good way to buy time.

6) If you don't want a cyberarm, you can get mehhh dicepools with Automatics anyways. Focus on getting a lot of recoil compensation together - unaugmented, you can scrape up 8 RC on an Ares Alpha. Assuming 2 agility, Automatics 1, specialization in Assault Rifles, and Smartlink, you can roll 7 dice, and do long wide/short wide, which will at least have a pretty good chance of hitting most people. You can also use drugs to pump your agility, although if you take a 5-drug cocktail on a regular basis expect some addiction rolls.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the imput!

And what about martial arts? Are they a viable choice, at least as an addition to other abilities?

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 03:05 PM

doublepost, sorry

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 19 2011, 03:09 PM

Yeah, I'm afraid that's not really true unless your GM magical tea parties social encounters and doesn't reward the use of disguises-- the Face, as the name implies, is the member of the group who is most likely to have to get out there and be seen on camera or walk right up to that guard, after all. In fact, I'd argue that Face is one of the roles that stands the most to gain at chargen from having magical abilities and augmentations simply because they stack up so well and the social augs take up relatively little essence even if you go whole hog. So unless your GM magical tea parties everything or otherwise sets the dice thresholds low augmented and magically active characters will always have a serious, serious edge in that arena. The only thing an unaugmented mundo will have on a social adept is maybe more points to spend on contacts. Even that may not be true, however, given that high attributes and skills cost more than Tailored Pheromones or a Kinesics, Con, and Improved Ability combo, so it's possible to be roughly as good as the mundo for cheaper, at which point the augmented guy can then take his savings and spend them on contacts. Really, the only role that I felt ever really worked fine as completely unaugmented was the Hacker back before Augmentation or Unwired ever hit, since ultimately they were still gear dependent (if not implant dependent) and Edge is very powerful for them. Riggers are similar but have always at least strongly benefited from a Control Rig.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 19 2011, 03:42 PM

Martial arts are potentially useful but probably not in the way you're thinking. The closest you're going to come to being good at physical combat is using attacks you can Wide Burst with; you don't want to sink a lot of points into trying to be good at melee combat in your meat body. If you like the idea of martial arts there are some uses; the trick is to gab things that don't just help you fight physically, but also help you with guns and joystick rigging.:

Krav Maga's "Take Aim as a free action" trick is useful since you can use it both in the meat and while joystick rigging. Ninjutsu can give you +1 die to Infiltration tests which again applies to both meat and joystick rigging - only do this if you already have Infiltration 4, though, because it's 5 bp for that point. Pentjak-Silat and Wildcat can both give you +1 die to called shots to increase damage, which is a frequently useful option; this does require a free action, though, so you should probably take either this or Krav Maga's take aim as a free action, not both. You will be mostly making Full Burst attacks as a complex action, so you can spend one free action to call a shot for anywhere from +1 to hit, +1 DV to -2 to hit, +4 DV.

Manuever-wise, I wouldn't spit on Watchful Guard even if it's only 1 dice. If your GM will let you use Vicious Blow with Stick-and-Shock ammunition, then it provides a hilarious way of tasing vehicles and drones to death; I think as written it does allow that but your GM might not like that one and it seems a bit fishy to me. Full Offense is nice because the penalty only stops you from defending against melee attacks, but it appears to work with all attacks including ranged ones. Also, if you are joysticking a cheap drone, it might be worth it anyways. Multi-Strike might or might not be useful - I have SR4A, so I can't tell what it's meant to refer to. If it only works with melee, no. If it applies to the use of Full Bursts to hit multiple targets, it might be worth 2 bp. If it also applies to using an AE attack like a grenade, that's nice too.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 19 2011, 04:05 PM

That's another thing about my homebrew maneuver, the Martial Arts qualities generally don't offer anything particularily helpful, while counting against the quality limit. And when they are helpful, they really only help when using parts of several disciplines. Not very attractive an option, if you were to ask me.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 19 2011, 04:24 PM

Yeah, most of the martial arts styles synergize VERY badly with themselves, but some of them synergize quite well with other styles. Also, a lot of the abilities are just plain awful.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 19 2011, 05:17 PM

...and then there's Krav Maga which is so much cheese i've seen it get martial arts flat banned at a number of tables.

Posted by: Bushw4cker Jul 19 2011, 05:45 PM

With Mundane, get some stealth skills and Longarms or Archery. Also a character with a really high edge can do wonders.

Posted by: Bushw4cker Jul 19 2011, 05:45 PM

With Mundane, get some stealth skills and Longarms or Archery. Also a character with a really high edge can do wonders.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 05:48 PM

And here I was trying to sound diplomatic
If 'magic tea parties' being steamlined railroaded scenes, then yes, that's exactly the point. Can't say much about augmentation, but as far as magic goes, there are just too many effective ways to influence social interactions to miss it.



Seems I got the right impression of Krav Maga
And maneovres like Finishing Blow/Set Up aren't worth the effort?

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 19 2011, 06:00 PM

Well, by magical tea party I mostly meant the gm essentially tossing the dice out the window for a while rather than just railroading, a situation that is a pretty common occurrence with social situations in many games. Besides, even if the GM plays things to the letter there's still a degree of variability given that how much a net hit is "worth" is still left to GM discretion. I don't even really dislike magical tea party all that much, actually. Hell, the most sublime "gaming" experience I've ever had was a round of http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2470/the-extraordinary-adventures-of-baron-munchausen after a few drinks.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 06:16 PM

In our group it's almost always 'roleplay now, roll later', with rolls affected by the roleplay itself (actually I'm the main propent of this style), so stats are vital, but sometimes it's possible to cut some angles.
Still, having a more options is having more options, even if we don't roll a single die

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 19 2011, 06:19 PM

Finishing Blow is for melee only. Melee is sketchy in general and not a good idea for your character.

Set Up is crap. If you can Set Up succesfully, you could have hit them. Why would you trade a hit for a small number of extra dice on your next shot?

I suppose there might be some extreme edge cases where Set Up wasn't a trap, but it's not worth 2 BP. If it was free, I can't think of the last time I would even have considered using it.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 19 2011, 08:29 PM

That is how I've played so far, but I'm not in total agreement with it. Personally, I would prefer if all the characters (NPC's included, though it would be faster to buy hits or do the actual rolls for many of them before hand) roll Ettiquette, and then the GM uses that to guage how the character should act (based on the actual character's personality, of course. But sometimes, even a typically rude asshat will have a good day and be all smiles, or a happy go lucky guy will havea string of bad luck when he wakes up, putting him i na foul mood). Then, use that to guage the penalties that may occur on the rolls later (con, negotiation and intimidate, most likely)

In my opinion, this will also be an interesting circumstance of players roleplaying their character having an off day.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jul 19 2011, 08:39 PM

Martial arts are a great way to make a mundane combat worthy. There are options that let you crank up your DV (i think capped at +3) which can make your damage comparable to bone lacing cyberguys with higher strength than you.

Also, you can use Ninjutsu technics to fight better in the dark, and utilize vision hampering grenades, like thermal smoke etc. to give yourself a slight advantage. Remember, vision penalties are halved in melee, so make em blind then get in close and punch em where it counts >:)

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 19 2011, 08:53 PM

Strongly disagree with calling it "combat worthy"-- it's really more like a half-decent last resort option if you've been relieved of your weapons. Melee just isn't a very good primary shtick in shadowrun* and compounding it by restricting yourself to the most expensive ways of being good at melee makes for rough sledding. Taking Unarmed or Clubs along with the Gymnastics skill isn't a terrible character feature but if you go that route I'd rather suggest concentrating on the Krav utility bonuses, the ability to deal damaging disarms on Full Parry or jacking up your Block or Parry skill so you can get back to your gun rather than expect to be punking people in hand to hand.


*I do not even seriously consider melee frontliner to be a complete role on a lot of teams-- anything above low powered street level games and you should be able to do something other than just say "I violence it if it is close enough," full stop. The characters I've seen succeed with hand to hand weren't good characters because of their mad melee skillz but because of an overpowering advantage in durability or stealth. It's a lot easier to get away with bringing a knife to a gunfight if you happen to be all but immune to heavy pistols.

Posted by: Xenefungus Jul 19 2011, 09:39 PM

Are you talking about essence or nuyen here?

Posted by: Doc Byte Jul 19 2011, 09:51 PM

The 'Nullhead' is an old concept character I've posted a while ago.

I've created another character based on the 'Nullhead' emphasizing the rigger part a bit more and tossing in a face, but I have no character sheet in English. I think the sniper/rigger path is the way to go for mudans w/o ware. Their huge advantage's that they can pass any security checkpoint w/o seting off an alarm.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 10:10 PM

Essence. As I mentioned, I can get a bit more stuff out of GM for this one (the rumor is we'll need it and it still won't enough )

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 19 2011, 10:11 PM

This is very much true. The only effective melee characters I've seen have been effective because they were outrageously tough street samurai, and melee forces people to pay attention to you.

Posted by: Xenefungus Jul 19 2011, 10:14 PM

That can largely be done while having bioware, too.

But i really like the blandness / erased combo, one of the few themes that fit for a human. Generally, i dont see why one would want to play such a character though. You can be low-dog with implants as well



If you just dont want to spend the BP, have a look over here -
Consider this, the ware of a ganger of mine:

Used Wired Reflexes 2
Muscle Replacement 2
Attention Coprocessor 3

While that does eat up all your essence it is only 35k. And it's really as "low-dog" as it gets. The boni are great though.

Show me a better way to invest 14 Karma

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 19 2011, 10:28 PM

Thanks for the character idea!

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 20 2011, 03:24 AM

As long as you're not in a group of gung-ho prime runner types I could easily see such concepts working-- especially with karmagen-- since they tend to be pretty gadget oriented and for better or worse Shadowrun is a rather gear oriented game. As I implied earlier, the trick is to avoid eschewing nuyen advancement entirely and to pack some tricks that don't give a rat's ass what your attributes are. If you're going to be a mundo then you should consider being a very technical boy. Knowing a few people in high places doesn't hurt either. I've played a character that was mostly a mundo and he got by basically by being a Trust Fund kiddie/small-time fixer.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 20 2011, 11:11 AM

In mirrorshades and trenchcoat games, faces with strong unarmed combat are very good too. Social infil can and will leave you without guns. A character able to get in under the radar AND retain some combat ability can give you a lot of options. There is also bath house negotiations or getting padded down and having your guns removed before a meeting, where unarmed combat is also very good.

I think the system is right in leaving melee at low power levels. It is totally unrealistic for melee to equal firearms, and I think there was no reason to add the martial arts DV increases. It is completely unrealistic.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 20 2011, 11:44 AM

The Reason WAS to make melee more equal in usefullness to firearms . . Also, in a game with magic and cyberware, it's best not to complain about stuff being unrealistic . .

As for the OP . . Any magical shenanigans in your group? If not, take Astral Hazing and act as a mostly mundane means of countering magic . .

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 20 2011, 12:08 PM

Yup, there will be mage. But I'll think about this option - maybe we can work out something interresting from this

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Jul 20 2011, 12:57 PM

It is pretty handy to give foes the -3 Attacker in Melee Combat modifier while you are axing them. On its own, the debuff isn't worth it, but since you grant it by just attacking someone, it's nice.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 20 2011, 02:01 PM

An important point here is that unarmed combat != melee. A lot of people have an illogical love for armed melee combat which is one of the most niche roles in the game. Unarmed combat is not a terrible idea because of what you mentioned- and also because you can add Unarmed to your melee defense. Lots of spirits and critters are melee-centric and published material often has a lot of NPCs with silly katana fetishes.

However, you have to keep in mind that there's a "threshold of effectiveness." A 2 STR mundane with Agility 2, Unarmed 4, and +3 DV from martial arts qualities is simply not getting their BP's worth out of the martial arts because they are just not going to do enough damage for anyone to care. They'd be better off replacing the martial arts with, say, Palming 4 and trying to sneak in something like a Shock Glove. Or with a legal cyberhand that has an integral legal shock ability. Or any number of other things.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jul 20 2011, 05:42 PM

Melee is a loose term that isn't strictly tied to being armed, actually, and I'd argue that that the other close combat skills aren't really that much worse than Unarmed for defensive purposes. Sure, Unarmed tends to be my favorite-- especially if you're a troll and netting (relatively) cheap strength-- since short of being incapacitated it should be available. But a lot of the time Clubs isn't all that far behind in usefulness since it covers most improvised weapons--including say, a rifle or pistol-- and in many cases a reach bonus will help offset any improvised weapon penalty present. Even blades isn't so bad given that ceramic knives are pretty easy to get into places and can be laced with toxins while bayonets give you an easy way to nullify an attacker's reach bonuses so you don't get stabbed before you plug them. Beyond that, the defensive damaging disarm combo is one of the few tricks I'd actually consider out of the Martial Arts section and for that you need a weapon.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 20 2011, 07:24 PM

Have you decided on a MetaType yet?
If not, make it a Fomori Troll Variant.
In Combination with Astral Hazing, you are more or less untouchable for most magical stuff.
Else, i think there's a Dwarf or Ork Variant with Arcane Arrester too . .

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 20 2011, 07:40 PM

Depends. It's been disputed a number of times (and I tend to agree, based on my reading of the book) that Spells cast into the Astral space being hazed aren't affected.

The Dwarf variant with Arcane Arrester is a Gnome.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 20 2011, 07:49 PM

Arcane Arrester is what would reduce magic cast directly on you. Astral Haze would nerf any Adept or Mage in close range. So, basically, only a ranged adept would be a magical threat to you, and that merely places it circa the threat an equivalent cybered enemy would be.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 20 2011, 07:51 PM

This is true.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 20 2011, 08:06 PM

Takes care of Wards, quickened spells, foci, and spirits and other magical critters, if you can hug them.
you'd be one of the few cases where the fire elemental would be reluctant to try and hug you to death.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 20 2011, 09:03 PM

Great, now I have a character idea for Huggy-Troll

xD

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 20 2011, 09:42 PM

Nothing unrealistic about cyberware, and magic exists in the SR universe, which you just have accept as realistic for the setting.

None of that however should change the relative power between a fist and a bullet though. And the knockout power martial artists got with Arsenal is just plain ridiculous. Melee was fine in relative power, it is a simple fact that a few bullets will take you down fast but two trained fighters in a cage can go round and round for 3x5 minutes - and that's wearing shorts, not armor.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 20 2011, 09:52 PM

A focused martial artist, however, can do massive damage to an opponent unarmed or with weapons. Bruce Lee trained himself to a degree that was considered beyond human potential, and the build point/quality sink you get into during character creation would indicate this. 35 (or even 20) BP worth of Martial Arts would, realistically, indicate a heavy personal focus and unusual dedication to martial arts by that individual. Combined with appropriate physical stats, this would be a person who could punch about as fast as a bullet (lacking the range), attack weak points for massive damage (obligatory giant enemy crab reference), or wield a long sword with the focus and accuracy of a scalpel and fury of a natural disaster.

The standard character would be unable to reach such plateaus, and the issue of range makes it a disproportionate investment. However, excelling at melee combat, even in the real world, can lead to startling and unexpected results. Also, in the real world, such unusual focus is usually a disproportionate investment, and as such most people, even those with a natural aptitude and the potential to reach such heights, would not pursue such a path.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 20 2011, 10:11 PM

There are plenty of very gifted athletes who did martial arts most of their lives, train full time for fighting and compete professionally in for example MMA, and none of them have the ability you speak of. They'll easily and quickly walk over joe average, but an average fighter won't be that simple.

Even Bruce Lee's fights often took plenty of time. But we don't know how good a fighter he really was, he didn't compete.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 20 2011, 10:37 PM

There is also the fact that competition in this time is not lethal. Sport fighters are trained to be powerful, but not trained to kill. In order to guage actual prowess in combat, one would have to look at how they do in actual, combat with the intent of ending the existance of the opponent.

This, however, is very hard to do (especially in any terms of legality).

Also, in many sport fights, the fighters are told to keep it going. Longer fights (as long as it isn't too long) leads to better ratings.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 20 2011, 10:49 PM

There was a video taken of how fast he punched (vs a can). Granted, we have much better filming technology now, but even what was recorded back then was fast enough that most scientists would have sworn his tendons should have snapped. Considering the training he'd put in at that point, you could say a 6 Str, 7 Agi, 7 Skill. Against another person, the punch might not have been effective, but a solid hit would have broken bones and injured internal organs. 14 dice + Aim (x2) (- Called Shot, perhaps) to hit, and 4 + success + Martial Arts DV boosts (+ Called Shot?), an impressive dice pool against most humans, until you call in Magic, Cyber, and body armor (which realistically lends encumbrance, though the RAW compromise is understandable).

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 20 2011, 11:49 PM

i seem to keep doing that ^^

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 12:21 AM

In my opinion, some of these people in reality that break the rules of what would be naturally possible in theory, might count as spike-baby adepts. Obviously, not especially powerful adepts, only effectively magic 1, maybe 2. Still, that's enough to matter at least a little.(one or two "dice" to tests can make one better enough to matter, at least, more often.)

Posted by: Cain Jul 21 2011, 01:14 AM

Bruce Lee is an example of a Legendary character. His http://www.fightscope.com/jkd/one-inch-punch/ is a devastating technique, which can't be properly modeled using SR4.5 rules. If someone wanted it, I could fluff it out a bit to make it work, but it can't be pulled off unless you're exceptionally good at it.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 21 2011, 02:15 AM

Starting Qualities:
Aptitude (Unarmed) 10 BP
Exceptional Attribute 20 BP

Picked up after creation:
Unarmed 7
Agility 7
Strength 6

Martial Arts Qualities:
Arnis De Mano (+1 Called Shots to Disarm; +1 DV to Clubs; damage on called shots to disarm) 15 BP
Boxing (+2 DV to Unarmed; +2 Defense Vs. Unarmed) 20 BP
Krav Maga (Take Aim as a free action) 5 BP
Kung Fu (+1 to dodge, block, parry, and Unarmed DV) 20 BP
Muay Thai (+2 DV Unarmed, +1 defense vs Unarmed) 15 BP
Pentjak-Silat (+1 to Called Shots to increase damage; +1 on Attacks to Knockdown) 10 BP
Tai Kwon Do (+1 DV Unarmed; +1 Unarmed when attacking multiple targets; +1 on Attacks to Knockdown)


Just on unarmed DV, 3 (Str/2) + 2 (Boxing) + 1 (Kung Fu) + 2 (Muay Thai) + 1 (Tae Kwon Do) + (attack successes) = 9 (stun) + Successes, or 7P + successes if using the Vicious Blow maneuver. 1 More could be added via the Wildcat style, though I did not feel that fit the idea. Bruce Lee was also skilled in counters and trapping (Ripsote, Set Up, and Finishing Move maneuvers), which could increase his DV further. Further boosts from aiming.

That's a large investment compared to a shotgun, but this would be quantifying a person who devoted his entire life to martial arts. As I pointed out earlier, this is not a matter of an efficient or effective build/goal. Both IRL and in Shadowrun, this build would be entirely unrealistic to expect of a character, this was merely my way of quantifying via the game rules what one man had achieved in the real world.

Posted by: Neurosis Jul 21 2011, 05:05 AM

Bruce Lee was probably an adept, guys. : ) Anyway looking at this, you forgot the Martial Arts Specialization for Unarmed, which is practically two free dice.

Posted by: Cain Jul 21 2011, 06:15 AM

The interesting thing about Bruce Lee was, he was essentially the father of modern Mixed Martial Arts. His concept of studying many different arts, taking what works from each of them, and putting them into your personal toolbox is the entire basis for MMA today. In fact, almost all modern schools teach the toolbox metaphor. He would have multiple martial arts and maneuvers under his belt. If I was thinking Shadowrum, I'd definitely make him an Adept. Critical strike plus a lot of knockback is a good way of representing the "Show version" of the one inch punch. (The real one is much, much nastier....)

Posted by: Rubic Jul 21 2011, 06:23 AM

However, Bruce Lee was far predated by the Greek martial art Pankration. Pankration itself was essentially mixed martial arts as a martial art, though Boxing and Greco-Roman Wrestling were the only practiced martial arts in the region from which to directly draw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

Posted by: Cain Jul 21 2011, 08:08 AM

Pankration is considered to be the oldest martial art in the world, although the "purity" of the techniques is somewhat in question, as there were quite a few centuries where there weren't any active practitioners. I am familiar with it, although not extensively. But while the idea of taking concepts from other martial arts has been around for a while, Bruce Lee was the first one to come public with the idea. Much of the evolution in fighting techniques and philosophy stem directly from Bruce's writings. What doesn't come from him, mostly comes from Ed Parker, who was responsible for the popularity of karate in the United States. I have some connection to both lineages, so I've studied some of both. There's some interesting ideas that can happen when those two philosophies are combined.

Getting somewhat back on topic, a mundane Unarmed Combat specialist with low cyber could be effective. You've got more points free to pick up Martial Arts edges, and won't need much in the way of gear. You don't have to spend BP on Magic, like an Adept, and you can save the points that a street sam would need to buy cyber. You do, however, need to specialize heavily. Shadowrun is a game about a team of specialists, working together. While glaring weaknesses is never a good idea, you can get away with soft spots in your skill set, knowing that other team members will make it up for you. If you really want to save points, go human and buy Edge as high as you can. You'll need it: it can buy you extra IP's in a pinch, and without initiative boosters, you'll need it.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 21 2011, 08:23 AM

Getting a bit back to the topic, can a character volunteraly initiate surprise attack? BRB states that 'if there is a surprise, blah-blah-blah' and the elvish martial art has a bonus to surprise attack. Does it mean that I, as a player, can initiate a surprise attack with all subsequent rolls and actions? And if yes, how would Adrenaline Surge affect these rolls? You roll fo surprise as usuall, but go first nevertheless?

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 09:52 AM

The one inch punch is a gimmick. It's a stage trick. It isn't powerful and is more like a shove than a punch. There is nothing going on that couldn't be done much better with a regular punch.

Posted by: Cain Jul 21 2011, 10:58 AM

That's because you know nothing about it.

The secret behind the one inch punch, as developed by Bruce Lee, was to generate a lot of power in a very short distance. If someone closes into you to grapple, you need to be able to generate a lot of force to take them out. You don't have the luxury of a full draw, so you have to rely on other tricks.

What you've seen is the stage version. Sending people flying looks good for the audience, but it's really not that effective in a fight. The trick is to leave that power inside the opponent, much like a hollow point round. The real punch leaves all that explosive force inside your body, doing a lot of damage.

The other important thing to realize is what it teaches you. Try this trick: hold a phone book against your chest, for padding. Have a friend punch you from one inch away. You might feel something, but not much. Now, have him repeat the punch, only now at a six-inch draw. You'll feel a lot more power. Next, have him go full-draw and unload. Guess what happens? You're on your butt.

People who learn the one inch punch learn it to increase their punching power. They can generate a lot of power from only an inch away, so what do you think happens when they can get a full draw on you? The answer is: they get even more powerful.

And if you want to know how I know this: I trained under James DeMile. I have an open invitation to train with Patrick Strong. I've never trained personally with Taky Kimura, but I went to his son Andy's first wedding. If you want to look them up, you'll see that they are all original students of Bruce Lee. I am very aware of the Bruce Lee legacy, and I know that what he actually developed and what other people teach is not the same thing at all.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 21 2011, 11:07 AM

Wrong. A Shove does not manage to break boards as they do with this punch.

Posted by: Kliko Jul 21 2011, 11:26 AM

In the end its savagery that wins a fight... period.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 21 2011, 11:31 AM

You say that as if there were something wrong about that o.O

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 11:31 AM

I really don`t think so. Savagery can give you surprise factor, with being the only crazy slot willing to bite the guy with the gun, but in general, smart tactics and better gear win the day.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 02:18 PM

If what you're saying is, the one inch punch is something you do to learn to punch properly, whatever. People have all sorts of training practices.

As long as we agree that the one inch punch isn't a proper punch. As you say, with a full draw they punch much harder.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 02:28 PM

One, I said more like a shove, not exactly like a shove.

Second, most board breaking is also just gimmicks. Weak wood broken along the grain.

The idea that you can throw a powerful punch with only an inch to accelerate your arm is just silly. You can put your body behind it and get some whip into it, but you just can't built up proper speed over such a short distance.

Or maybe kung fu monks have magic powers. Chi also hardens their skin to iron so they can block swords with their arms and stop spears with their abdomens.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 21 2011, 02:40 PM

Training, especially LIFE LONG Training allows People to do silly shit . .

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 02:58 PM

I've seen this proven empirically false. A one-inch punch can be absurdly powerful if you do it right, and crash test dummies agree. It was even on TV last month, some reality show focusing on amazing feats.

Of course, it was no surprise to me, because the principles the monk used were similar to what I teach. I'm most effective and powerful from a range people don't think other people can strike from effectively. Not some esoteric internal style, either. Classic military techniques.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 21 2011, 03:01 PM

*Cough*The Joker*Cough*

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 21 2011, 03:09 PM

The joker wouldn't last 10 seconds in the shadowrun universe. He only gets to continue to succeed because his primary opponent will never kill him and he has plot armor.

Also the last couple pages I felt like I logged into bullshido.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 03:16 PM

This is the Internet. Use Google. It's not hard to find proper empirical tests of the one-inch punch. I'd post it myself, but I'm on my phone and typing with my thumbs, and it's a pain.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 03:36 PM

Along with what Lurker says about the Joker having plot armour and his primary opponent, the Joker also uses brains with savagery. He may not be the brightest in a IQ sense, but he is very capable of reading situations, and acts with a chaotic fashion. It is strategically sound to do the unexpected, but not usually when you are just rushing a group of guys with more armour/firepower.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Jul 21 2011, 03:39 PM

You are presuming i care, again this is dumpshock not Bullshido, I don't mind the discussion I am just amused by the placement of it. We could always resurrect the Krav Maga thread

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 03:41 PM

When you want to do the unexpected, keep in mind that people usually don't expect things because they would be silly. Prepare and have something ready that people think you CAN'T do, not that you WOULDN'T do.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 03:48 PM

"You can't prepare for the unexpected. All you can do, is prepare to be surprised"

You, of course, are right. And the Joker still does that, more often then not. Even if he remains within the boundaries of human capability, he breaks the rules of strategy by doing things that no one can properly think to do, because they are weighed down by logic.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 03:58 PM

If a rational person can't think of it, that's because it's not a rational thing to do. That doesn't mean just conventional or unconventional. It means that the action is or is not beneficial to you. The Joker pulling out clever surprises, sure, no problem. The Joker winning on pure crazy off the cuff? Doubt it.

Posted by: Doc Byte Jul 21 2011, 04:00 PM

The character I've mentioned isn't a 'low-dog' at all. In fact he's a member of a themed team of 6 Ex-MET2Ks I've created and has his role in the team.



I don't know how the charakter would work in a 'normal' team. Like I said, he's part of a themed team. All of them are very low on ware. That was part of the concept as well. All of them should be able to board an airplane without being arrested at the front door.

---

Unfortunately I lack the time to translate the http://home.versanet.de/~breyer/downloads/The_Alpha_Crew_v.1.0.pdf into English.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 04:09 PM

There are ways to achieve walking through security successfully without ditching 'ware. Opt for bioware and openly available cyberware, maybe permits for a few bits, and you're set. Not missing out on too much.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 04:12 PM

I agree. And that's what I mean. The Joker wins the victories he does because of crazy savagery and thinking, not just the crazy savagery.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 04:20 PM

Also the inexplicable lack of willingness of a lot of people to kill him dead, or even fail to save his life sometimes.

I do agree with the idea that sheer aggression will do a whole lot to win a conflict, which is what the 'savagery' thing was about, but it's not a magic bullet.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 04:21 PM

Yeah, it is amazing that people believe such myths in this day and age. Jamie hyneman from mythbusters could punch with twice the force of the world greatest ninja's one inch punch.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 04:36 PM

I see what you did there.

One-inch punch isn't difficult, it's effective, and has been demonstrated repeatedly. Sure, there are negative tests. They test some people who can't do it. But then there are positive tests, and when you're testing a technique that some know and some don't, you have to debunk the positive tests, because finding a million people who can't write a symphony is not proof that symphonies can't be written.

There are a lot of BS myths about martial arts. The idea that a lot of power can be generated in a short distance is not one of them. You are claiming to know more about kung fu than Bruce Lee, and it is amazing.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 21 2011, 04:42 PM

I just realized recently that there is, in fact, actual gear in Runner's Companion. I have had the book for ages now and only looked at the character options and qualities. Among other things, the MAD jammers and Magnetic Diffusion Shielding from the book pretty much mean that cyberware should rarely ever set off a MAD scanner.

The MAD jammer simply reduces the rating of the MAD scanner by it's rating, up to 3 points. The MDS subdermal sheathing increases the threshold needed to detect shielded equipment by it's rating, up to 3.

Since MAD scanners only go up to rating 3, potentially it has to score four successes on three dice. If the jammer is activated at the time of scanning, that's four hits needed on zero dice. It won't help against cyberware scanners, but most low to mid security places only use MAD scanners, since those are "good enough" for day-to-day.




-k

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 04:44 PM

I looked at those, and did some of my own research on other factors (like how hard it is to break a rib, etc.), and while no, the one inch punch may not be as powerful as a full punch, a trained person using it can be effective. And that's all it needs to be, is effective. You may not break their jaw, but if you crack a rib, they guy squeezing you to death will still likely back off a little.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 21 2011, 04:59 PM

A lot of people mistake One Inch Punch with Dim Mak or some other crazy devastating attack. Kill Bill showing one-inch punches breaking heavy wood planks probably does not help much.

It's an attack designed to stagger an opponent and catch him off guard. That's really all. You usually expect to follow it up with additional attacks while the opponent is recovering.



-k

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 05:01 PM

Sort of like how plenty of convincing demonstrations of mind reading have been carried out, and those experiences aren't cancelled by psychics not being able to do it out under controlled conditions?

Just to be clear, what sort of power do you (all one inch punch believers can reply) think a one inch punch creates? Is it like a good boxer's jab, or half that, or a cross?

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 05:02 PM

That's every attack.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 21 2011, 05:04 PM

True. The main advantage of One Inch Punch is usually surprise.

As mentioned earlier, Mythbusters did some testing and found that it generated about half the force of a full-swing punch. So, enough to stagger an opponent, especially if he wasn't expecting it.




-k

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 05:10 PM

That's how you debunk things, yes. Those psychics, when they can't duplicate the feat under lab conditions, have been debunked. People can and have done effective one-inch punches in laboratory conditions.

My own one-inch punch is similar in power to my best jab. My hook blows it clean away, as does my straight. It isn't the One True Punch, but it's useful.

Posted by: Doc Byte Jul 21 2011, 05:24 PM

It's mostly a matter of fluff and not a matter of crunch regarding my team.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 05:27 PM

I get that, but crunch-wise... Ouch.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 05:44 PM

Actually, the world's best ninja's one inch punch was half as powerful as the completely untrained host's full swing.

Posted by: Doc Byte Jul 21 2011, 05:45 PM

Looking at the 900 Karma versions with 100k extra creds, I'd say they should be able to put up a good fight, if they have to. Sure they don't fight like Streetsams but like soldiers, what is exactly what they have been before turning to the shadows.

Posted by: sabs Jul 21 2011, 05:49 PM

Given that you can deliver a one inch punch in a micro second, where as a full punch has tons of lead time and is stupidly easy to block or dodge. The power of the 1 inch punch isn't in it's sheer power, it's in it's ability to connect and cause reaction slowdown.

My 1 inch punch isn't particularly strong, although if I center it, and sink into it it's enough to make someone with pads flinch. But I get to land it fairly often, because it comes out of nowhere with almost no warning.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 21 2011, 05:51 PM

Please show me a lab test that demonstrates the power of the one inch punch then. At some point you'll get home to your computer so you won't have to copy paste from your phone.

So, you think it is like your jab, that's not too shabby even if the jab is the weakest punch. How have you tested this? Do you use it in sparring and fighting? Why do you think MMA fighters don't use one inch punches in the clinch or dirty boxing situations, or when a fighter is in the guard and the bottom guy keeps him tugged in so he can't swing his punches properly?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 05:52 PM

And padding is what? PPP gear...

Posted by: sabs Jul 21 2011, 05:57 PM

One inch punch requires sinking, and centering and it's actually a full body punch. It's about explosive strength, and even though your fist only travels one inch before hitting a target, it doesn't stop moving. You still put your hip and shoulder and body weight into it, and you keep extending your arm to keep on going. It's not something you can do while on the ground. Really, very few effective punches can be done from laying prone on the ground.

MMA doesn't do a lot of stuff, using MMA as a benchmark is stupid, because they're not trying to kill each other.
The one inch punch, giving me an opening to do a tiger claw to the throat, isn't helpful in MMA. Because the tiger claw to the throat is illegal. It's like Snake Style. You'll never see someone in a friendly competition use real versions of the various Snake styles. Because Snake isn't about pummeling and rendering someone unconcious. It's about causing massive soft tissue and internal organ damage.

Posted by: sabs Jul 21 2011, 05:58 PM

Padding in this case would be 1.5 inches of rubber and foam covering:
Chest
Head
Hands
Groin

Posted by: Redjack Jul 21 2011, 06:00 PM

Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss another topic, start another thread.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 06:00 PM

Which is something I've stated before about how effective using any competition as a means to guage their "martial" (not "martial art") unarmed ability is, regardless of the style in question.

Posted by: Traul Jul 21 2011, 06:07 PM

Actually, Cyberware scanners cost the same as MAD scanners, are easier to find ( 4R instead of 6R), have a longer range (15m instead of 5), go up to Rating 6 and can also detect non-metallic weapons. Per RAW, MAD scanners are completely outclassed and should have disappeared. But Runner Companion completely does not mention any way to circumvent cyberware scanners. You're probably better off merging them: MAD scanners go the way of the dodo and the counters presented in Runner Companion work against cyberware scanners.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 21 2011, 06:18 PM

While it is true that Cyberware Scanners SHOULD have supplanted MAD scanners all over, for some reason in the SR universe they have not. You still tend to see MAD scanners in publicly accessible buildings, like offices and shops and clubs. Cyberware scanners in the various books tend to show up in high security areas.

No, I don't know why that is, and the SR fluff makes no explanation. So I guess if your GM follows the books, then anti-MAD stuff is more useful. It depends on your campaign.

SR3 had RAM shielding, but that vanished since then somehow. I suppose it's just rolled into Signature Masking.




-k

Posted by: Glyph Jul 21 2011, 06:26 PM

High skills, martial arts, and other things can make a tough mundane character, but the problem is that anything they can get, the street samurai or adept can get - and add magic or augmentation to it. Sure, you can get +3 DV from martial arts. The street samurai can do that, then get bone lacing and muscle augmentation. The adept can do that, then get critical strike and killing hands.

Unaugmented mundanes can be effective if you are playing in a campaign like Doc Byte's, where they are built on a lot of points, and all light on the 'ware. Or if you are playing a tweaked-out mundane in a campaign with poorly-built or low-powered augmented or awakened characters. Or if you are the sole specialist in a certain area (such as covert ops), meaning no one will be overshadowing you.

But generally, being an unaugmented mundane is a huge disadvantage. You can offset it a bit with a high Edge, decent gear, and some tactical thinking. But it's tough. You ever see Blade Runner? You are basically Deckard, and everyone else is a replicant.

Posted by: Blitz66 Jul 21 2011, 06:26 PM

EDIT: topic-squash.

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 21 2011, 06:27 PM

To get a bit back on topic, I'll quote my last question, it seems it was lost in the discussion.

Posted by: sabs Jul 21 2011, 06:27 PM

It could be that Cyberware scanners are a privacy issue? Where as MAD Scanners are not?
Certain types of Cyberware are legal, and yet embarrassing. It does seem weird that a world like Shadowrun would care about that. It's not a cost issue. Maybe it's a slow moving bureaucracy issue. MAD scanners are installed, they work generally well, and it would cost money to replace them with cyberscanners. So instead, you leave them where they are, maybe as they break and you need to replace you start putting in cyberscanners, but then you have to pay for two different maintenance contracts, and the maintenance software for your skillwired techs.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 06:53 PM

As far as initiating surprise, it depends. You can initiate combat when everyone else is talking, but that would require a surprise check for everyone else to be able to act in that first pass, including team mates. It would also give you the ambush bonus, I think (+6). And, again, if you pull out your gun and shoot, your friends have no warning (if you did warn them you might, I would allow the NPC's a perception and/or sense motive test to see something was up). If I were GM, I would also give you a point of Notoriety if you did this in say, a Johnson meet, or another discussion.

Posted by: Traul Jul 21 2011, 07:07 PM

When you plan a Surprise attack, it's an Ambush and the rules for it are right after the Surprise rules: +6 to the surprise test and the ambusher cannot be be surprised. Adrenaline Surge allows you not to read the overly complicated last paragraph since you will always go first

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 21 2011, 07:14 PM

Basically, he is asking if he can make it so he is surprised and gets his bonus . .

Posted by: Rubic Jul 21 2011, 07:14 PM

One Inch Punch isn't the same as the psychics, because it CAN be carried out when outside of those controlled circumstances. You tell somebody to take their 1 inch punch into a laboratory with a sensor to detect the force of the blow, and they can still produce that same force exerted on the wooden board, or their associate, or the training pads, or whatever. Now, if you tied the person's arm down so they couldn't move it, that is a situation that would make it physically impossible, like removing the drive train from a car and saying that if it doesn't run, then cars are a sham and don't really work.

Mythbusters had a MMA competitor perform a 1 inch punch for their Kill Bill coffin scene myth, and he was able to produce 1430 lbs of force. Not everybody will be able to do that much, some might be able to do more.

Posted by: Falanin Jul 21 2011, 07:21 PM

Smirnov, I run surprise this way.

If you are undetected when you attack, surprise is automatic. Snipers often get this. If you're hoping to get this bonus for a hand-to-hand attack, your target will generally get a perception check to detect you, which, if successful, drops you from this bonus to the next one. (or possibly to the third state, if they detect you more than a round in advance)

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, AND you detect your enemy before that, you generally get the +6 ambush bonus. You'd also get this bonus if you were being friendly when you whip out your gun (assuming your target believed the friendly act).

If you were undetected until the turn you attack, and you don't detect your opponent either, you roll for surprise as normal. This also happens in situations where everyone is suspicious. but nobody knows when or if the guns are coming out.

The classic western quick-draw duel (and similar situations) skips surprise entirely, and just goes straight to initiative.

Posted by: Makki Jul 21 2011, 07:39 PM

if A is not an obvious hostile, B should not get a perception check. drawing a gun and shoot is one action phase, there is no time in between, to see what's coming. So unless B is prepared for a fight, A gets +6 to the surprise test. I just don't see it otherwise

Posted by: sabs Jul 21 2011, 07:45 PM

Draw and shoot is one action phase, but it doesn't include take aim. So there are penalties.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 07:51 PM

Unless you quick draw.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 21 2011, 07:52 PM

It'd probably be a Con check to determine how well you hide your intent.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 07:55 PM

I agree.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 21 2011, 09:31 PM

It also depends on the nature of the negotiations. If they are actually amicable negotiations, sure, you have a good chance of surprise. But a lot of the negotiations that shadowrunners deal with have the threat of impending violence in the back of everyone's mind - meets with a Johnson, dealings between two underworld factions, gangs, or corporations - drawing a gun won't exactly be a big shock under those circumstances. You might still get the drop on them, though, if you have a high enough initiative.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 21 2011, 09:43 PM

I might still give them +3. Or, maybe +6 to him, and +3 to everyone else in the immediate area (Maybe only the Johnson, one of his guys, and two PC's are allowed in the room. I've done that, and let the m choose who. But then the Johnson was a troll, and the second was a mage.)

Posted by: Smirnov Jul 21 2011, 10:23 PM

That's right. I know the rules for ambush, surprise and all. The rules state 'in case there is a chance of surprise...', and I want to know if I can deliberately make that case of surprise happen not only in situations when we are setting an ambush, but also in case of surprise attack. Something iaijutsu-style - kill him before he knows what killed him.



That's pretty much social complications, of which I'm aware, but sometimes it just comes to this. Conserning the team, there can be a code phrase or even mind signal if we have proper spells (and we have ), so they will know something is on.



Thanks for the rundown. Adding to it Con roll to deceive the target, and I have what I need. Thanks!
And with Krav Maga I can aim as free action, so no worries here either.

Posted by: Rubic Jul 21 2011, 10:58 PM

Just remember, one free action per turn (2 if you include speaking, though you cannot substitute another action for speaking).