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Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 22 2011, 08:47 PM

Is there anywhere in the civilized world where vampires are legal? I was thinking of them setting up in the entertainment industry. Even a 'district' for them, clubs, bars, joy boys and girls (cold flesh) but do not know if any nations support them legally. Of course legal does not stop hunters, groupies wanna bees etc.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 22 2011, 08:54 PM

I'm also completely unsure. The only thing I have heard in reference was connected to the Ordo Maximus. I believe it was a Vampire initiatory group/secret society in the UK. But the name escapes me.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

Posted by: LostProxy Jul 22 2011, 08:58 PM

That ghoul nation in Africa. Aren't they ok with fellow infected as long as they aren't the crazy murder everyone and sort them out later type?

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 22 2011, 09:14 PM

I was thinking some nice place in say, Toronto, Vancouver, Belgium.

Posted by: Starmage21 Jul 22 2011, 09:55 PM

IIRC PCC will issue SINs to the infected.

Posted by: Nath Jul 22 2011, 10:00 PM

Running Wild lists Amazonia, Asamando, Aztlan, California, Czechia, Basque Country, France, Philippines, Salish-Shidhe and Yakut as "infected-friendly", whatever that means.

And Belgium no longer exists in SR : Wallonia joined France, Flanders joined the Netherlands, and Brussels remains as an autonomous city.

Posted by: Traul Jul 22 2011, 10:02 PM

Nothing in Romania?

Posted by: hermit Jul 22 2011, 10:03 PM

According to Running Wild that's Amazonia, Aztlan, Asamondo, CalFree, Czech Republic, Euskal Herraia/Basque Country, France, Greece, the SSC, Yakut (Also Evo, Aztechnology and some AA corps). Of course, 'legal' mostly means 'can get a criminal SIN and a tracker so we can watch them die because eating someone's soul is manslaughter', except for maybe Amazonia, Asamondo and to a degree some of the corps (thogh that's conjecture really).

Edit: Ninja'd by Nath.

There was that coven in KaGe who operated a poser gang and a nightclub for food, then there's JetBlack and his gang, and the seeekrit societies like Tamanous and the Ordo. Leipzig has a vibrant goth/vampire poser scene that has some vampires, and the bunches of Nosferati in Germany who run this law firm and a bunch of investment companies. Overall, though, the Vampires in Shadowrun ike their masquerade. Probably for their better, because they aren't as durable as they may think they are. SR's rules are quite deadly.


It doesn't really exist either, it's a blank spot since Synner's HDD crashed and took his writeup of Eastern Europe with it. Do what you want there. Personally, I'd be inclined to have the place run by vampires. Secretly, of course. Masquerade is a good idea in a world where all it takes is an angry mage with binoculars.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 23 2011, 12:53 AM

Toronto is a nice place?

...

Sorry, my Northerner is showing.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Jul 23 2011, 01:28 AM

That's it! You cocky cock! You'll pay for your crimes against humanity!

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 23 2011, 05:39 PM

Well, it is better then Montreal, at least...

Posted by: CanRay Jul 23 2011, 06:24 PM

Debatable. Montreal might be nicer if it wasn't for the Language Police in their Jackboots.

It's nicer than Quebec City, I'll give Toronto that. And probably just that. (Sorry, a Canadian thing, especially for Northern Ontarians.).

Posted by: Neurosis Jul 23 2011, 06:32 PM

Shadowrun: always more reasons not to go to Africa.

That would be my number one advice for fledgling runners. Do not, for any reason, go to Africa. Ever. I mean it.




Scott Pilgrim reference, here? whaaaaaaa?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 23 2011, 06:35 PM

Still plenty of reason to want to from Africa (and never wanting to go back).

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Jul 23 2011, 06:59 PM

Tell it to the cleaning lady on Monday.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 23 2011, 07:01 PM

It's not as bad as Quebec.

Posted by: hermit Jul 23 2011, 07:13 PM

Azania's not so bad as a setting (there's worse parts in the UCAS, not to mention Europe). Besides, I'm kind of tired of the authors in the CGL era painting every African location as a variation of a recent African Hellhole. All race issues/allegations aside, that's just wasting a setting with a lot of potential. You could, for instance, do interesting things with Benin - if you have played Empire: Total War with an Amazon edition gam, you should have a good idea. Or maybe Ethiopia, which has the added bonus of being a hotbed of bizarre iterations of Judaism and Christianity and potential magical hotspots.

You could do quite a lot of things with Africa in Shadowrun. Instead, the entire continent is declared "here be [the correct term is 'people of colour', hermit]s!'. And that's a shame.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Jul 23 2011, 07:44 PM

Thanks for bringing it back to topic hermit.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 23 2011, 07:53 PM

You mean that little light on the horizon that barely registers to the augmented eye?

Seriously, though, yeah, their are plenty of nations that will allow infected to live there, and a few Megas that will pay them, but as with any deseased individual, or someone that is known for violence for any reason, most people generally won't accept them "...in my neighbourhood."

Aztechnology, as someone has mentioned, will employ infected, especially Ghouls and Loup-Garou, but I'm remembering something about them not doing it openly. And how it seemed a little off, since they are trying to appear to be much more humanitarian these days.

Posted by: hermit Jul 23 2011, 08:08 PM

OP got her question answered. Twice. So it's not like I am preventing that.

Why anyone would want to employ Loup-Garou, of all things, is beyond me (even Mutaqua make more sense), but the Infected have been whitewashed, declawed and painted pink in 4E anyway.


Yeah, carpet bombing cities is very humanitarian ...

I would assume people would in general oppose to have raving mad flesh-eating zombie disease spreading monsters for co-workers. Loup-Garou might make decent beastman-style shock trops, but there's hardly any other use for them I can see.

There, back on topic enough?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 23 2011, 08:57 PM

Depends, are the areas they're carpet bombing have any SINners broadcasting from their Commlinks?

If not, then it's just urban renewal.

Posted by: LostProxy Jul 23 2011, 09:23 PM

I for one love Mother Africa. Maybe it's because you can get away with so much there and it's an easy place to disappear in. Plus it's not Quebec which is always a plus for you and your non metahuman brethren.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 23 2011, 09:39 PM

I recall somewhere that Loup-Garou are considered a lot like Ghouls. They both transmit their affliction via contact (usually biting), they both tend to transform into less-than-human acting creatures, and they can both retain some cognitive function post transformation. They both also only require an amount of metahuman flesh, not soul-draining essance. The monthly rage the Loup-garou have can be medicated away, and they tend to be relatively sane without it (relative to the big kid on the playground with no idea of right and wrong, mind you...). I've also heard mention of a Loup-garou movement similar to the Ghoul one, though not as far spread, or accepted.



Alright, you got me there. I was refering to Aztechnology's public face before Ghost Cartels. They seem to have gone very south very fast on that note. (Or just let the public see the face under the mask, which from what I hear is much more likely- I started playing in 4th edition)

Posted by: hermit Jul 23 2011, 10:01 PM

Yup. And much like with Ghouls, I just cannot see anyone wanting to have them for co-workers. It's pretty bad for AIDS infected, and was much worse in the 80s, and they don't turn you into a zombie mutant and/or try to eat you given half a chance. I just do not buy this sudden cuddlyness with that kind of Infected.


... when they torched Yucatán? Okay, that's 3E, but the Azzis have been playing hardball since ever.

Aztech might be popular and produce a million billion great products, but nobody would think people who propagate bloodsport sport to be humanitarian. Nor is humanitarianism very high in demand in the Shadowrun world, excpet where Horizon is concerned.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 23 2011, 11:07 PM

Which makes Horizon even more suspicious than AZT. If that were even possible.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 23 2011, 11:26 PM

Trying to fix that. I had a few ideas, but got involved with things a bit late. Okay, more than a bit late, but Rob didn't listen to me about the critters back in the initial 4E playtests anyway, and it was his decision-making that deballed the Infected from the word "Go."

But I'm working on it. Slowly, since that's how I work and I've got a lot of things to undo, but I am working on it.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 23 2011, 11:33 PM

I address that, at least a little, in Street Legends. I'm not too wild about "Infected rights" either.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 23 2011, 11:46 PM

The fact that a ghouls sneezes in your general direction and you get to be his brother if you were not extremely prepared does not help either . .

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 23 2011, 11:51 PM

You ain't just whistling "Dixie" there....

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 24 2011, 12:03 AM

does not compute?

Posted by: Aku Jul 24 2011, 12:36 AM

I believe he's agreeing that is a bad set up

Posted by: Sengir Jul 24 2011, 01:15 AM

Eh, Shadowrun (and cyberpunk in general) is a world were there majority population lives like workers in the early days of industrialization - and that's before you get to the trogs or everybody else who doesn't fit. So giving rights to Infected is not about luxury problems like non-segregated bathrooms or equal opportunity employment, because that's something the rest of the world doesn't have, either. It's about basic things like not having a price one's head by virtue of existing.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 24 2011, 03:20 AM

And that is why drones are your friends.

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 07:26 AM

Good old Martin.


Yeah (and Ancient's writeup of the near-veggie Wendigo that totally dismisses the core concept of the Wendigo legend). Your writeup has been more along the lines of what I think the Infected should be like. I still think it's a mistake to make them playable characters, too (and not much more plausible creatures, like Merrows). Or at least give some ideas about special campaigns for special needs PC in the Companion ... ah well, let'S not dwell on the companion to much, it'll just get me in rant mode.


Cyberpunk also is a world where a much more feral idea of justice exists, in essence a neofeudal society. So why exactly shuld the general, unwashed and impoverished population hug and protect ghouls and vamps who are out to eat them instead of burning them at the stake? Why should a corp risk their wage-slaves turning on them because of politically correct embracing of the Infected?

Leper colony-like solutions might be possible, like shipping Infected to some kind of leper colony island. Of course, given Yomi, that idea probably is heavily tainted in the SR world.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2011, 08:54 AM

At least the vampires don't sparkle.

Yet.

I've never gotten the "rights" for infected, either. They aren't some misunderstood minority, they eat people. And the infectiousness of ghouls (part of Running Wild that I really think they need to retcon back to what it was) makes embracing them even more inexplicable. They are highly infectious, with a disease that turns people into, more or less, zombies - feral flesh-eating, rotted-looking things.


A district for vampires, I think is a very bad idea. You'll wind up having vampire carnivals, and vampire strip clubs, then you'll have Mary Sue, the PC vampire hunter, getting her own harem of vampires and shapeshifters. Don't go there... that way lies madness.

Posted by: Traul Jul 24 2011, 11:15 AM

But on the plus side: Salma Hayek stripping...

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 24 2011, 11:34 AM

ah, thank you for the translation ^^
i can do english, i can do bad english . . but i never got the hang of redneck! *runs*

Posted by: Sengir Jul 24 2011, 12:38 PM

You know, I could just C&P my previous statement under that...but I will try to make it a bit more understandable:
Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Jul 24 2011, 04:20 PM

So, basicly it is about not being open, total warfare? Then shooting them where they can't be seen in the shadows is not off the table.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 24 2011, 05:55 PM

It's one of the rules: "Be discrete."

No, wait, that's "Be polite."

Posted by: ggodo Jul 24 2011, 06:07 PM

But you should also have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Posted by: Traul Jul 24 2011, 06:11 PM

For ghouls, the plan is: breathe.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 24 2011, 06:56 PM

Well, shooting people in the shadows is what this game is about

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 07:37 PM

With Companion's race generation rules that's actually an easy build. The Cold Ones (yes, I did that once) even came in less expensive than Nosferati.


Any SR4 book disagrees with you on that. Actually, even SR2's Sprawl Sites disagrees (check the ORC activist contact and a couple of the encounters). The only book that might agree with you is Germany Sourcebook.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2011, 07:38 PM

Actually, although it detracts from the aforementioned, I prefer that writeup. I always had a problem with the earlier "Monster Manual" style writeup of the wendigo (and the SR3 metavariants, especially dryads). If you are going to have wendigos and dryads more closely resembling their legends, then do them as spirits, so it makes more sense! It's way better than saying "Human vampires can occasionally be angsty and misunderstood, but all orks that are infected are automatically chaotic evil, and all exhibit a very specific pattern of behavior." Or "Dryads all have a mysterious urge to go to the middle of the woods. Oh yeah, and they all automatically have the same religion." Metavariants and sapient critters have no business being pigeonholed into narrow roles like that. To some extent you can justify it if it is something present only in an isolated enclave, with one culture, but usually it smacks of lazy writing to me.


The biggest problem with that setup is that they still need "food". Of course, if you have some other kind of undesirable that can act in that role, you can essentially solve two problems at once. I don't see that happening in the public eye, even in the jaded world of Shadowrun, but I can see a government or megacorporation doing it secretly. Especially if it is combined with HMHVV research.

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 08:11 PM

Ghouls (and Type III beasts) can eat the dead of SINless and each other if there're too many of them. The Vamps and other souleaters have no business being alive anyway. I can't possibly see why those should be allowed to be left alive.


Because it is so much more logical to pigeonhole spirits (which are just as playable as metavariants and sapients) into an alignment - which are a bullshit idea to begin with, so best leave them out of this. Besides, the original setup had the vamps be just as evil as wendigos, only wendigos adding that "prefers the meat of people it corrupts to cannibalism" feat.

The dryad writeup was that of a Fae, though. Which are spirits, more or less. Pretty strange to make it an elf variant, of course.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 24 2011, 08:25 PM

It depends if you consider spirits to be sapient independent creatures, or manifestations of cosmic forces shaped by belief.

Even the in-game magical theorists haven't figured that one out for sure.

A Wendigo spirit, for example, may be a bloodthirsty savage man-eating horror because that's what people believe it to be.





-k

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 08:34 PM

They're playable. Unless you want to say every player of a spirit is maybe not an independent creature, it's fair to assume they are, since the rules for playing one do not indicate otherwise.

Nevermind how much that fucks fluff over and how much that screws with the way the SR world works. Background-wise, I'm all with you there, but Rob Boyle decided to make SR4 the newD&D where you can play anything that can hold a sword, so there you go. Of course, even UMT and SR4's magic syystem massively fucks with the established canon of how magic works in SR's universe ("your beliefs shape the rules"), so that is a pattern with SR4.


Yeah, and look a lot mor awesome than that X-Men character. Did that once, was quite a memorable experience for some layers. But anyway. Making the Wendigo non.corrupting is the same level of gimping and PCing as a sparkling, vegetarian vampire would be.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 24 2011, 08:38 PM

On what? That everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee has the same enforceable rights as pre-Civil Rights blacks (i.e. none when it matters), or that "Ghoul rights" doesn't mean giving them more rights than the other proles?

Either way, I'm sure you have a quote to back that up.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2011, 08:39 PM

I consider spirits to be semi-sapient to sapient beings formed from the manasphere, shaped by the collective consciousness of metahumanity as a whole. So I think it does make sense to have them in more specific roles - the Wild Hunt is an example. I don't think of it as "alignment" so much as "programming". To use the matrix as an analogy, I would say most hermetic spirits are similar to agents, shamanic spirits are similar to sprites, and free spirits are similar to AIs. Although I also think the higher Force spirits will usually have more sapience, and more of a unique personality, even for things such as elementals.

Of course, this is getting into personal interpretation territory, but things such as manitou, the Wild Hunt, and other things show that spirits can have more rigidly defined behaviors and roles, when those roles are associated with a particular myth or legend.

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 08:53 PM

On your claim: "Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight." Certainly, do you have a quote to back THAT up, right?

The books agree that metahumans are a tad farther than "not being shot on sight" in civil rights terms. They can be middle class corpers, for instance. Or maybe you want to back up your claim that everybody who is not a corp citizen (hint: most SINners are nationals, not corp citizens, check the stats in sourcebooks) has no tangible rights whatsoever?

@Glyph: I'd be inclined to agree with you on that, but the mere fact that spirits can be PCs - and PCs generally are not running a program, but have free will - disagrees with that interpretation.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 24 2011, 09:14 PM

The way I understand the social system, SINners have all the civil rights the parent countryécorporation gives them, as long as they are on their home soil. If they aren`t, they are subject to international law, and laws of the ruling body they are in, at least as far as internationals go. The SINless have no rights, and could be killed or disappeared without anyone really batting an eye. Most Metahumans fall on the category of SINners, defined on a particular social standing (generally Orks and Trolls in the Ghettos, and Humans, elves, and Dwarves everywhere, with more humans-by-numbers in the higher reaches), and most other species falling to the side (either because they aren`t considered equal of humanity, legally, or because of "racism". Metahumans might be "alright", but most humans would be uncomfortable with something non-human)

Spirits: Can be almost anything. I treat them as curiosities, as they should be. Some are narrow scoped, and will force their values, others will be more open. Two in universe examples are The Wild Hunt, which is a group of spirits which seem to party and enjoy sport, but prefer to be away from the Gaiasphere, so only come when someone performs a very specific ritual. The other is Buttercup, who owns a controlling interest in Evo. Originally, as fara s I can tell, she was playing with people for kicks, toying with them as her playthings. After spending a year force-inhabiting an Ork Male, she changed, and now embrasses what life has to offer.
Spirits can be narrow, but that doesn't mean they can't change like any other character.

Posted by: Nath Jul 24 2011, 09:25 PM

The second edition corebook explained quite a number of vampires avoided to kill their "prey" when draining Essence. Vampires needs what, 3.5 liters of blood a week and one point of Essence a month ? Doesn't seem that horrible to me, unless the target is awakened or you are working for a cyberware manufacturer.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2011, 09:28 PM

I see spirits as beings that can be constrained by the role in which they manifest. Those roles can either be narrow, or more open. In other words, you can be the archetypical wendigo, or you can be a generic spirit of man that went free. For the former, the spirit doesn't necessarily lack sapience, but it is convinced of its role. It thinks that it really is an "evil" spirit formed by a curse caused by cannibalism, so it's thinking will be bound up in that role. A fire spirit that goes free when its summoner dies, on the other hand, is less rigidly defined, so it has less constraints on how it can grow or change. It will still be formed in large part by its summoners attitudes - for example, if the mage typically summoned it in the form of a beautiful woman, then it will be likely to think of itself as female, and be likelier to be an animus rather than one of the other typical free spirit roles.

Actually, it would be pretty interesting, either as a PC or an NPC, to have a free spirit start out as something one-dimensional, such as a wendigo or a valkrie, then start questioning its role, and growing out of it.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 24 2011, 09:37 PM

I tend to agree with you there.

Posted by: hermit Jul 24 2011, 09:42 PM

The compassionate vamire you describe is clearly worded as an exception to the rule, at least in German texts (I do not own an English-language 2E core rules book). But yes, they are said to exist. Then again, so did Twist's sister.

@Glyph I agree with you there. The game mechanics disagree, I think

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 24 2011, 10:07 PM

Twist?

As far as I can tell, there is no limitation on what skills a (PC) free spirit can have, so i don't think it disagrees at all. The spirit can grow from it's original mindset and expand its capabilities to attempt to fit in to a world that it is impossibly alien to.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 24 2011, 10:34 PM

I said "everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee". Because "class-ism" is a classic cyberpunk theme, for the upstanding white-collar employee a lowly skillwired wageslave is just nothing, an entity whose only value is the ability to provide cheap labor but can be replaced at a moment's notice.

A good deal of information on this is of course in RC, the descriptions of the typical neighborhoods in particular. A somewhat less obvious source is UW, with its chapter on skillsofts and their social impact.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 24 2011, 11:23 PM

*looks at thread title tiredly*
why has nobody said it yet?
"Wait . . legal vampires? We have those . . they are called lawyers . ."

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 25 2011, 02:10 AM

I'm a little fuzzy on it, myself, to be honest with you...and I wrote that. I was still reeling from my time away from the game and picking up the Runner's Companion and reading about "Infected rights". I think during that process, Dunner asked me to include that. It's been a while, and I've slept since then, so I don't recall the entire process with crystalline clarity.

Basically, "Infected Friendly" can mean whatever the hell you want it to mean. Some (Asamondo) are clearly more comfortable with the notion than others, but to my way of thinking even they're not too hip on vampires and wendigos camping out in their territory. And that's saying something, IMHO.

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 25 2011, 02:18 AM

Doing that right now in my home game, with a Valkyrie.

EDIT: @HunterHerne: Yes, just about any Skill except those from the Conjuring Group. My little, lost Valkyrie is, however, checking out those spirits in the Mojave desert and that new-fangled "Calling" thing the wiz-kids are talking about.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 25 2011, 02:22 AM

Ordo Maximus is an initiatory society in the UK. They take all comers, as long as they have the cash to pay for membership. It is, on the surface at least, a high-society drinking club for people with an interest in hermetic magic.

It's also run by vampires who want to take over the world. At least, to hear some folks tell the tale, it is.


Asamando. As I explain somewhere else: Comme ci, comme ca. Even ghouls aren't too happy with wendigos, for instance, if for no other reason than disliking cometition for food.


New one on me, at least as far as a dedicated group for loup-garou. There's a much-publicized push for "Infected rights", but I'm trying to put the kibosh on that one.

re: "Ain't whistling 'Dixie'"

Yep, that it in a nutshell.


He's good for stirring shit up. I do hope you like him when the book comes out.


I want them to be scary again, and I'm trying to make that happen. I'm glad you liked my bit of Running Wild. (Of course, I think everyone should like my work, so I'm pleased when anybody says something nice about it.)


It's honestly not that hard a dialect to pick up....

Posted by: DeathStrobe Jul 25 2011, 05:26 AM

You know, a vampire cyber doctor would make a lot of sense. The people the vampire operate on are going to loose essence no matter what, might as well feed first then replace that lost essence with cyberware while the patient is under. And maybe sell the left over body parts to ghouls. I could see a plausible market, a "legal" market here.

Posted by: Traul Jul 25 2011, 08:11 AM

Does Essence drained from a vampire leave a hole?

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 08:21 AM

Yeah, because everone is going to trust Dr. Dracula because he technically works according to the rules (if you implant your cyberware in blocks of 1 Essence cost, that is).


Please do. It's taking the cuddlyness a few steps to far.


Also, Wendigos probably eat them. They prefer the flesh of cannibals anyway (or should, being Wendigos, at least).


Depends on which edition of Augmentation you use. However, there is a cheap-ass (comparatively) essence regenration method in augmentation especially for healing vampiric essence loss. To make Vampires with a harem of willing food slaves a viable character concept, I suppose (it's the only thing that makes sense).

Posted by: Glyph Jul 25 2011, 09:41 AM

I could see a bit of a push for infected rights, just not a serious one, or one that gains any momentum. Even with the Tamir Grey diaries, ghouls are, for the most part, feral creatures. Also, they stink, they look like zombies, and they eat people.

Vampires are even less acceptable, although I could see a push for vampiric rights coming from the angsty goth crowd that romanticizes the bloodsuckers. I could see some emo kid with mascara wearing a V.L.A.D. (Vampiric League Against Discrimination) t-shirt and bitching about all the vampire-haters on his liveblog.

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 10:53 AM

On the same level as NAMBLA, perhaps. And just about as accepted.

Posted by: DeathStrobe Jul 25 2011, 04:07 PM

Who'd say Dr Dracula would let people know he was infected? He'd probably have a number of magic wards set up to keep out the awakened types to ensure that only mundanes come to his clinic.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jul 25 2011, 04:12 PM

That would be the point of this. a vampire night club 'with real 'live vampires' is going to draw fans and haters. Being legal would mean you could have to be very careful. Popping someone in DC is legal but in Denver it is murder. Just to grab two cities.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 25 2011, 04:39 PM

...which restores 0.1 Essence/Month. Considering that a vampire loses one point of Essence each month, he needs ten people on permanent gene therapy. I'm too lazy to look up the exact price right now, but we are looking at several Million a year - payments to support the donors and keep them in line not included.

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 05:45 PM

You say that like you never go to your Ripperdoc without an armed escort to ensure he behaves well.


You misremember. Cellular Repair, p. 88, Augmentation. Takes up to 2 months, 15.000/week. Only works on damage done by Essence Drain and Energy Drain. 2 months for 5 Essence amounts to a very sustainable food source for a pampered SR4 vampire.

Posted by: Aku Jul 25 2011, 05:54 PM

well,at 15,000 a week, that equals 60K a month. It doesnt say how much essence is healed in how much time, so I'll assume 1 week =.75 essence (given that max treatment time is 2 months) Sp, losing 1 essence per month, he could keep 2 people on therapy and keep them alive, for a mere 1.4 million per year.

if my math is right

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 06:09 PM

Yeah, it doesn't say how fast essence regenerates, because the Companion is so well written.

I'd say, though, 2 months equals 5 Essence, the maximum essence healable. So let's 0,5 essence/week (5/12 actually is 4,667). He'd need one essence per month, so the food slave person would actually regenerate faster than it's being drained if it'd regenerate the whole month. Going by these numbers, we're looking at 2 weeks of treatment for 1 essence regenerated and one essence per month drained. That's 30.000 per month, including, say, a middle lifestyle for the slave person (5000). Makes for 35000 a month, or 420.000 per year. That is totally doable with a small busines you siphon cash off (like a lore shop, or an orichalcum factory). Or even just a good Day Job.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 06:24 PM

70,000 Nuyen the First Month and 20,000 Nuyen Upkeep per month after that. Per Person... for Revitalization Gene Therapy.
Never mind for the Cellular Repair Gene Therapy, as that has already been covered above.

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 06:26 PM

Yes. It's not viable. Cellular Repair, however, is.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 06:28 PM

Yep, Already Acknowledged that above... I was responding to the 0.1 Essence Recovery/Month statement, sorry.

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 06:34 PM

No prob, it's a bit hidden. And badly worded, as said above. The numbers in that example are conjecture.

Posted by: Fyndhal Jul 25 2011, 07:03 PM

Congratulations. You have won the thread!



You mean, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X949ZYPYCg, no?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 25 2011, 07:14 PM

It's always kinda amusing when Tymeaus and hermit argue.

Them both having the same avatar is kinda trippy. Like someone arguing with himself.




-k

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 07:45 PM

Heheh... It does keep the world interesting...

Posted by: Sengir Jul 25 2011, 08:12 PM

Well, I correctly remembered the wrong item. As TJ figured out, I was thinking of Revitalization

Cellular Repair of course makes healing from Essence Drain really easy - which I guess was the intention, just that the author thought of players as the victims and not as perpetrators...


PS: On the other hand, vampire hunters will also love this.

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 08:24 PM

I don't know. The core books were written more or less in parallel, right? And the decision to make the Infected the new PC craze to woo over some disenfranchised WoD players was made at top level ... not saying you are wrong, but the method is so overly cheap ... at the very least, it is really easy to take advantage of.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 25 2011, 09:41 PM

Congratulations, that bite means your character is irrevocably gimped - well, not totally irrevocably, you can get that Essence back at a rate of 0.1/month.

Just the thing you want to hear your GM say, hm?

Posted by: hermit Jul 25 2011, 09:53 PM

Odds are you get it back a LOT faster with Cellular Repair.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 10:01 PM

I'd buy that for a Dolla, errrr, Nuyen.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 26 2011, 01:49 PM

re: kiboshing "Infected rights"

Don't expect it overnight. I'm slow, and it's a niche problem in the overall world picture. I'll do what I can, as I can. I've got some plans, though.

There's that, too.

re: my dislike of "Infected rights"

Well, the whole concept was ill-conceived, at best, in my opinion. Far as I'm concerned, it's a publicity campaign that's succeeded far too well for far too long. Time for something to go awry, says I....

Posted by: CanRay Jul 26 2011, 09:12 PM

Then we find out that they sparkle and aren't really vampires, but are just trying to get attention...

Posted by: hermit Jul 26 2011, 09:26 PM

Or went not as well as expected, depending on whether that was meant in-world or meta ... but yes, it is high time for something to go wrong there. Best, start with Hannibelle, the shadwtalker introduced as the mascot of this change.


Any movement is movement.

Posted by: Starmage21 Jul 26 2011, 09:32 PM

So we're going to get a vampire public opinion SNAFU a la Russel Edgington from True Blood because some people whined and cried about vampires?

Blech

Just blech.

Posted by: hermit Jul 26 2011, 10:38 PM

Play oWoD for all your sparkly needs, dude.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 26 2011, 10:55 PM

No thanks. Those aren't vampires, they're douchebags.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 26 2011, 11:48 PM

Well, someone else wrote her up, but she is involved...after a fashion, at least.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 26 2011, 11:59 PM

*bows* ^^

Posted by: Sengir Jul 27 2011, 10:48 AM

Because ghoul rights are a totally new addition to SR canon...

Just looked it up for fun, Target:UCAS (which introduced ghoul PCs for the first time and was set years after Special Order 162) was released in 1997. At that time the Renraku Arcology was just an oversized shopping mall, and IRL a guy called Tony Blair became Prime MInister of the UK.

Posted by: Xahn Borealis Jul 27 2011, 11:19 AM

Coincidence? Don't believe it for a second, omae. TONY BLAIR WAS BEHIND THE ARCOLOGY SHUTDOWN. NEW LABOUR WAS JUST A TOOL OF DEUS.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 27 2011, 11:31 AM

I think there's a difference between Infected rights and Ghoul rights.

I do think the idea of ghoul rights is interesting. Most of the other infected, from my reading, are basically feral monsters and there's not much that can be done other than kill them. Ghouls fill a depressing niche if done correctly: people caught halfway in the transformation between man and monster. They're not monsters (not all of them) but there's not much that can be done to save them and inevitably they're going to start killing people to stay alive. There's some good ground for moral dilemmas there. I think the push for normalization makes sense and can bring the issue into focus for the players but it's the sort of thing that can never occur. The moment there's some kind of solution to the ghoul's man/monster issue they become pretty pointless.

There's basically two other kinds of Infected, basically mindless monsters who are always good for a combat run and will never get rights, or the masterminds like vampires, who really don't need rights and are kinda annoying anyway. I could buy vampires being interesting in SR in a world filled with ancient dragon, IE, spirit, etc conspiracies, they never really found a niche.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 27 2011, 11:36 AM

Some people are just too smart...


Dammit, where's my black attache case?

Posted by: Mardrax Jul 27 2011, 01:10 PM

I tend to think ghouls have a perfect position in robbing the greater evil of the shedim of resources.

Also, I have a vampire businessman walking around in Amsterdam, offering SINless services to sell away their souls. ("Don't worry, you're not selling away all of it.") I've always liked that classical image. And vampires are in an excellent position to fulfill it IMHO.

Posted by: hermit Jul 27 2011, 02:07 PM

And Tamir Grey died, and then there were the 162s and Tamanous, who basically gave metahumanity the finger because Tamir and his merry cannibals were collateral damage in Ares' fighting bugs (and claimed it was totally intentional, disregarding Ares' previous attempt, which included a nuke, something that usually destroys entire cities). Hannibele was introduced as a change from that, a "good ghoul" who is not only highly ethical and morally better than you, but also noninfectious since born ghouls are not infectious anymore.

Which was my point. Which you totally missed, again, and tried to distort into something you can disagree with, again. Where is your quote for your claim on civil rights in SR, btw?


That's only the lucky few among them. For the rest, it's feral monster. At least, it used to be before SR4. Actually, vampires fit that hat far better. they're less infectious, too. By the (argh) SR4 rules, vamires have a lot easier time to live in a socially tolerable way than ghouls. Sad but true.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 27 2011, 03:58 PM

I've yet to see an ethics lecture from Hannibelle - given that she works for Tamanous, she'd be a poor lecturer anyway. And her biography I'd like to see myself...


Already responded to that. Which you totally missed, again


Hmmmm, odd. Just a few lines before you had this to say about those things which are feral monsters but for a few lucky ones:
And Tamir Grey died, and then there were the 162s and Tamanous, who basically gave metahumanity the finger because Tamir and his merry cannibals were collateral damage in Ares' fighting bugs (and claimed it was totally intentional, disregarding Ares' previous attempt, which included a nuke, something that usually destroys entire cities).
Which is at least closer to the real deal. The idea of ghouls as mostly just feral, mindless monsters was already passé as of Bug City.


Only if one ignores the somewhat antisocial aspect of draining live people of their souls...

Posted by: sabs Jul 27 2011, 04:01 PM

Vampires only have to drain 1 point a month. That's not really that big a deal, most regular people won't even notice it's gone.

And Vampires can't actually spend any of their essence, so eventually 1 essence is all they really need to drain.

Posted by: Nath Jul 27 2011, 04:42 PM

If you ask me, treating Tamanous as only a ghouls group is also whitewashing. At least, ghouls have no other than option than human flesh to survive. Much darker to have people considering organlegging as a profitable business opportunity, rather than a necessity.

Posted by: hermit Jul 27 2011, 05:21 PM

Nope, you just tried to wiggle your way out, generally refering to books that cover different topics (like skillsofts that may or may not make workers a thing of the past). Not relevant to the topic of civil rights for new races (metahumans, ghouls, ect). I was inclined to let that pass, but since you insist: quote on that.


And here I thought this aspect was gone since Nachtwache. Fluff over Crunch and all, for the good of the oWoD memorial character.


I mentioned Tamir Grey, and the 162s. Where did I say anything abot whether other ghouls are feral or not? The bit about ghouls usually not being much more than feral critters is from RC 3E and 2E. Of course, ghoultown kind of collected the smart ghouls since you had to apply and register to gain refuge at Carbini, which is hard to manage if you're a fearl, snarling creature who attacks everyone on sight or hides until it is hungry again.


No, never meant to, the upper ranks were Wendigos and/or Nosferati (according to, IIRC, Threats 2). But Ghouls make up by far most of their members.


The reasoning always was they sell the organs and eat the rest. Make money by eating, so to speak. It's not more or less dark than hunting people purely for food.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 27 2011, 05:26 PM

I don't think it's all feral monsters. There seems to be 3 classes: feral monsters, ghouls who retained their intelligence but just plain went evil (losing a god portion of their mind will do that to you), and those who retain some of their humanity. Lone ghouls or small communities struggling to normalize themselves works a lot better if the rest are monsters.

As for vampires, well,
There two general ways to portray vampires: One is pure evil, basically a evil spirit/demon in a charming human shell. Nosferatu already do this pretty well, no reason to make this PCs. There's just not a lot to roleplay here.

As for general vampires, there's two problems:
#1 Regular vampires seem Cursed with Awesome, while ghouls are just cursed. There's nothing glamorous about being a ghoul and nobody but a min-maxing street-sam would want to be one, while plenty of people (just look at pop culture) wouldn't mind being a vampire (at least at first). There's an additional problem here: most of the vampiric struggle is internal, while a ghoul's struggle is as obvious as their blind, warped faces. And in an RPG, there's just not going to be that much time to devote to the internal struggle of an NPC who may only last a session or two. Need your players to understand the man/monster dynamic and start roleplaying it? You can spend fifteen seconds describing the ghoul's body or ten minutes listening to the vampire's tragic past.

#2 I won't say vampires are overdone, they're really popular and have been for awhile, but SR seems like a really bad place to do that. The vampiric struggle to maintain his humanity while he must kill to survive seems kinda dumb in a team of runners who regularly assault megacorps and get into shoot-outs with the cops to stay fed. It can be done, and I imagine there are lots of kids who want to play a vampire, which is great, more people playing SR, but you can't just transplant vampires into a cyberpunk dystopia. They need to be fleshed out and right now they're just not.

Posted by: hermit Jul 27 2011, 05:41 PM

According to the SR3 rules, you have a one in 24 (roughly) chance to emerge from the transformation without significant personality damage, a 1 in 6 chance to become a psycho, and a sure chance to become something feral. I can't find the SR4 rules, but I remember them harsher.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 27 2011, 06:14 PM

So after three pages, you still haven't got the clue that I was not talking about different races? Oh well, have fun with that, as well as with your strawman Twilight characters (which is kinda funny, I don't think any vampire groupie would go the lengths you go to whitewash vampires, just to be able to complain about whitewashed vampires)

Posted by: hermit Jul 27 2011, 06:16 PM

I made the mistake to assume you understood the topic. My bad.

As for straw man arguments: that is your specialty, not mine.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 27 2011, 06:46 PM

Vampires may get some extra Charisma, but they nevertheless are pale, hairless, emaciated (where do you think the -4 to swimming comes from) creatures which shy away from daylight. In a word, bloodsucking nerds

Posted by: hermit Jul 27 2011, 07:42 PM

Very pretty nerds though. Like Robert Pattinson. Or Justin Bieber.

And where do you get the idea from they're hairless? That's only Goblins and Ghouls. Other infected keep their hair or grow even hairirer!

Posted by: JanessaVR Jul 27 2011, 07:53 PM

I think he means Nosferatu - they're hairless if I recall correctly.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 27 2011, 08:13 PM

That they are.

On the -4 penalty to vampires swimming, it`s not because theyare emaciated, or most infected would get it, especially Goblins. That penalty actually stems from the mythic portrayal of Vampires, which are unable to cross moving bodies of water. Granted, it`s toned down, since they can still cross, but that`s my .02 nuyen.

(Also, another thinnish race, Elves, get a +1 to swimming before they penalties kick in.)

Posted by: Starmage21 Jul 27 2011, 08:57 PM

-4 to swim comes from a drastically reduced buoyancy. Something about their transformation appears to make them more dense, or remove air from their bodies. If it were the latter, It could be both funny and not, considering vampires go dormant when there is a lack of oxygen.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 27 2011, 09:00 PM

I really suggest reading the Essence Drain power again....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 27 2011, 09:14 PM

It is quite enlightening, in fact...

Posted by: Nath Jul 27 2011, 10:11 PM

In the stories told in both Underworld Sourcebook and Loose Alliances, ghouls acts a guards (or driver). One post suggests whoever runs Tamanous finds ghouls useful as "dual-natured security and muscle," which is far from covering the full extent of Tamanous activities. Also in Underworld SB, someone asks if a wendigo may be running the show, because of the Black Tamanous legend. By the time of Loose Alliances, this is still around as a rumor, but someone's also saying a group of NAN shamans started the operation.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 28 2011, 01:31 AM

Looking at Runner's Companion, p 81, Vampires get paler and get more pronounced canines (and their breathing becomes shallower) but that's it, they still sound pretty normal. I think you're talking about Nosferatu, who get the Orlock treatment.

Posted by: hermit Jul 28 2011, 05:22 AM

NAN shamans and Wendigo is not mutually exclusive. I didn't remember the ghouls being only occasionally hired muscle, but the 'men in grey' in their scary chemsuits (that's from Vice I think).

Posted by: Traul Jul 28 2011, 09:24 AM

Why does it have to be some magical mojo? All the street docs I've ever met were dabbling in organ-legging (or as they prefer to cal it, recycling), they just didn't manage to bring it to industrial scale.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 28 2011, 10:41 AM

Or maybe it's just been forgotten in the goblin stats...RC hardly is the most error-free book ever. An aversion to running water would be better represented the same way RC suggest to handle holy symbols etc. - a (psychosomatic) allergy.


IMO the -4 swim modifier stems from the fact that "[a]fter a phase of internal transformation and purging" (RC) the newborn bloodsucker has quite simply purged a good part of his body weight. Also, there's the problem of getting enough nutrition besides the Dietary Requirement. Ghouls have the problem of getting raw meat in world which mostly subsides on soy products, but a creature which can only hold down blood has it even harder...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 28 2011, 01:02 PM

Except that you can easily factor the cost of the nutritionally required "Meat/Blood" into your lifestyle for a +30% Lifestyle Increase (Oprional Rule for easy bookkeeping). Done and no further worries about nutrition.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 28 2011, 01:10 PM

As an optional rule, if the GM does not want to bog down the game with things like hunting your dinner.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 28 2011, 01:21 PM

Indeed...
After all, it is not "DinnerRun" it is "Shadowrun". But then, we don't play Infected at our tables, so it is not really that big of a worry for us.

Posted by: Aku Jul 28 2011, 01:25 PM

Maybe someone should make an infected version of "Foodfight!" heh

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 28 2011, 01:26 PM

Foodfight4A: The Food fights back!

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 28 2011, 02:29 PM

(Disclaimer1: Obviously non-canon ideas. I'm sure some people will hate them, but it's something I've been pondering for a couple of days, and I thought I'd share it.)
(Disclaimer2: I haven't seriously read the rules for Infected PCs. I gather they're peculiar; I don't care.)

Vampires have hired "scientists" to study if vampires can survive indefinitely from synthetic/animal nutrition. The studies suggest they can. The vampires make enough campaign donations and finance enough professorships, to keep this going. Of course the whole thing stinks; just like shadowrunners think Aztechnology stinks, this whole scientific "proof" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/

In practice, vampires just take some people from the Barrens who won't be missed, and after topping up their Essence, throw the remains in the Soylent Food machine. If a vampire gets caught, the rest of the vampires publicly distance themselves, the sucker goes to trial, and may even get convicted (although vampires tend to have good lawyers). Now and then they intentionally create a spare fledgeling vampire to be sacrificed this way, just to pretend to the public that the State really protects the people from rogue vampires.

The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy; that's intentional. Vampires are pretty rare, wealthy and influential. Their main job in the campaign is to show off that society is hopelessly corrupt, that obviously evil people can get away with it.

And yeah, there are vampire hunter groups. They take down vampires from time to time; that's doable. Of course, the State is obliged to investigate such "murders", although a lot of unhappy investigators drag their feet and secretly sympathize with the vampire hunters. So the vampires hire shadowrunners to take down the vampire hunters (and the vampire hunters may earn their keep as shadowrunners...)

---

Yeah, I like vampires. I don't like ghouls so much. This whole drive to humanize them doesn't work on me. While vampires are about Hypocrisy, Monsters Looking Like Us, ghouls are degenerate. They're only vaguely human, can't really hope to masquerade. Their existence sucks; dangerous, but also quite vulnerable.

Ghouls are a plague. They aren't really fit to survive for long, but the pandemic is impossible to contain. It just keeps spreading, and the extermination efforts can't really keep up. If their population gets out of control in the Barrens, then the State will burn them out, but the infection always pops up in a new place.

Ghouls are tragic: they've become monsters that don't have long to live, but will probably cause a lot of harm before someone kills them. The most merciful thing to do is put Ex-Ex between their eyes as fast as possible, from a safe distance.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 28 2011, 04:40 PM

Professional courtesy after all.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 28 2011, 04:45 PM

Them's fighting words, tabarnac

Posted by: CanRay Jul 28 2011, 04:49 PM

It's better than Quebec City, at least...

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 28 2011, 04:53 PM

Thats up there with 'Never deal with a dragon' in things that are obvious

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 28 2011, 04:57 PM

Wouldn't know, never been to Quebec City. I have been t the other two. They are looking nicer when compared to Halifax...

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 28 2011, 05:03 PM

Go to Toronto if you want decent streets and large sidewalks. Go to Montreal if you want to have a good time

Posted by: CanRay Jul 28 2011, 05:04 PM

I used to worry about my father being in Hell.

Then realized, he would just go up to the Devil and say, "Do your worst, I've been in a Quebec City ER with my OHIP card."

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 28 2011, 05:10 PM

It'd be funny if it weren't so true

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 28 2011, 05:12 PM

So I've heard. But, I'm not the kind of person who goes out for a good time. And when I do, I sadly find myself making notes in my head of vcarious things, like general cultural trends, how tight security seems to be, where the exits are, architecture, and just random things no one really cares about. (I don't drink or party, so that may be a part of my reluctance to accept Montreal as a good spot.)

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Jul 28 2011, 05:17 PM

Not even necessarily drinking or partying. We got great food, a pretty sweet mountain and more festivals than we can shake a stick at. Our http://fantasiafestival.com/2011/en/ has been pretty sweet this year, for instance.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 28 2011, 05:19 PM

more likely is the chance of kinship between them <.<

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 28 2011, 05:42 PM

Yes, follow this advice closely. I want the good stuff here never to get crowded.

Posted by: Hagga Jul 29 2011, 02:53 AM

Most places in the Shadowrun world fill a purpose - Africa just happens to be the low-civilization, mixed tech jungle hellhole. Like Australia is the mana-wasteland (Although a place with earth scorched bare and grey, burnt skies with arcane winds bearing curses and roving spirits, walled enclaves of corporate rebels and the like would be awesome in Africa).


I think the entire runners companion book, much as I like it, needs that.

Posted by: hermit Jul 29 2011, 08:06 AM

Yeah. Extremly uninspired. Started in Synner's era, and went far, far downhill from there. The worst part (so far) is Hill's bit on Somalia, but Almanac is a close second.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 29 2011, 11:31 AM

Well, if a character has negative qualities, the player should expect these disadvantages to come up in a game...


But how this is played out is besides the point, my point was that in-universe, a vampire will have a hard time getting his recommended calorie intake and thus is quite likely to look malnourished.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 29 2011, 12:22 PM

I would like to complain about this, because I think it's an absolute waste of potentially great cities/cultures for runs. However, when I look at India, Central Asia, or South America (outside of Amazonia), Africa actually seems to come out pretty good. And that's not counting the regions like China or the Middle East where the setting is explained and then basically undeveloped.


Then why are you playing a ghoul? Yes, there's discrimination to explore but there's a ton of alternatives if you want to explore that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 29 2011, 12:55 PM

I don't actually see that. Since all that is necessary "In Universe" is to increase your Lifestyle costs, it does not seem all that difficult to acquire the food you need as a Vampire. *Shrug*

No worries though...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 29 2011, 12:57 PM

Easy... I'm Not... My point is that Nutrition is not your worry as an Infected. Discrimination/Being Hunted is the major issue, from what I can see, but your nutrition can easily be handled.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 29 2011, 01:22 PM

If vampires/ghouls can survive the discrimination and lay hands on money, the diet isn't the big problem. If there's a buyer, someone (desperate) will sell.

Posted by: Dreadlord Jul 29 2011, 04:50 PM

True. And for someone desperate, giving up Essence to a vampire for money might be seen as better than selling a kidney to organleggers. No surgery, scarring, etc.

Posted by: Mardrax Jul 29 2011, 04:55 PM

It's not so much about Essence, they don't need all that much unless they burn through it. It's about blood.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 29 2011, 06:40 PM

This is true. The vamps don't need to eat essance as often as blood, and blood is naturally renewable.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 29 2011, 06:41 PM

Do vampires still bleed when cut?
If so, can they drink their own blood?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 29 2011, 06:45 PM

Yes.
...yes... tentatively.

It's my opinion they can eat their own blood, but it wouldn't exactly be equal. After all, that blood goes to more then replenishing blood.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 29 2011, 06:49 PM

Of course they would not get any essence out of it . .
But basic sustenance would be something else entirely . .
And seeing how they have regeneration, even massive blood loss does not really matter, because the blood is regenerated . .
So, basically, they can have a full tummy all the time, but need to go out and get essence from other beings . .
Maybe from another vampire?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 29 2011, 06:54 PM

Maybe... Regeneration does throw a little wrench in the works (since it magically repairsmost any damage), but I don't think it should work completely. Maybe slow down the effects of malnourishment, however the GM handles it, but I wouldn't let it stave it off completely.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 29 2011, 06:59 PM

That can't be the RAI, even if you could strongarm RAW into it (do we even have rules for blood loss?)

But hey, why couldn't you just buy donor blood/rejected donor blood?

Does Regeneration protect you from blood-borne diseases?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 29 2011, 07:01 PM

Even if it doesn't, Vampires get immunity to toxins and pathogens, too. (Yay to magicx2 as hardened armour against diseases)

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 29 2011, 07:09 PM

So you can comfortably subsist on blood rejected by the hospital for being diseased (or just feed on bums in the Barrens who won't be missed.)

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 29 2011, 07:28 PM

that'd be too easy and not give us enough reason to bicker ^^

Posted by: Mardrax Jul 29 2011, 07:41 PM

Do watch out you're not giving AIDS to the entire barren population.

I'd try and find a shifter 'friend'.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 29 2011, 07:43 PM

dude, it's a vampire . . who the hell still cares about aids?
there's much worse to go around in 2075 . .

Posted by: Lanlaorn Jul 29 2011, 08:12 PM

I'd assume Immunity to toxins/pathogens implies their super regenerative immune system just eradicates all foreign bodies, as opposed to the more typical "oh because you're undead". So I don't think they can be a carrier of any diseases.

Anyway I'm not sure what the issue here is, they lose essence once a month but can Essence Drain their essence up to twice it's current value. So a vampire PC could, during downtime, seduce and drain a point from 6 women he meets in bars and he'd be set for the next 6 months. Twice a year you woo or mug a half dozen people. They have a dietary requirement of blood but any blood will do, even type O vat made stuff. So really no issue there beyond some factor into the cost of their lifestyle.

It's really as much a non-issue for a Shadowrunner as the ghoul's diet. The whole typical vampire feeding/hunting nonsense is completely sidelined and all that's left is the "I'm Infected and will have issues from normal society over that". I'm not sure what the several pages of angst even is, being a vampire is no different than being a troll or an elf, it's a staple of fantasy lore put in a cyberpunk setting.

Lol, actually the vampire IS the disease that's much worse than AIDS going around in 2075 =P

Posted by: Mardrax Jul 29 2011, 08:30 PM

Thankfully, HMHVV isn't infectious from vampires unless they will it so.
And alright, call it VITAS then

Posted by: Stahlseele Jul 29 2011, 08:50 PM

vitas is hard to transmit, seeing how those who have vitas usually die within days . .

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 29 2011, 09:19 PM

Yeah, but they're infectious as hell while they're still breathing....

Posted by: Sengir Jul 30 2011, 12:44 PM

Again, this is an optional rule. Just like the option to let critters have non-delta implants, it does not automatically apply to each vampire in the universe.

PS: Just read the rule again, it says "the character is assumed to receive sufficient metahuman blood or flesh to satisfy his dietary requirement", not "to get his calories each day"

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 30 2011, 12:50 PM

"Dietary requirement" is what they need to survive. That should include caloric intake.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 30 2011, 01:15 PM

It does not, that's what we are talking about. Besides the need for human blood/flesh/bones, infected also have to eat like everyone else, since eating 5% (or even just 1, depending on which rule you use) of your body weight a month does not a full stomach make.

Combined with the fact that most infected can't hold down anything else than raw meat or blood (not necessarily human, though), that requires some ingenuity. The ghouls in Chicago for example have large pig farms to provide them with enough raw meat, and upscale stores should also sell real meat. But where do you get enough blood, without arousing attention?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 30 2011, 01:23 PM

Assuming the blood can be non-human, one could get it from almost anywhere. There are likely lots of places that will sell off what they can to make a little money on the side, so a butcher shop (or pig farm) would collect the blood to sell to interested parties, even if they have to do it under-the-table.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 30 2011, 01:44 PM

Sure, problem is there are not many butchers and pig farms, since most people eat soy, customers who can afford real meat on a regular basis make up a tiny percentage of the population.


But to be productive, how about this:
According to the lifestyle rules in RC, necessities on "High" (2000 ¥/Month) means "You eat real food prepared by drones or metahuman staff and indulge in high-priced real chocolate and milk". So simply change the requirement for the "Infected lifestyle" optional rule to High necessities (instead of Middle), meaning the subject will pay 2000 ¥/Month to get real meat/blood, and another 600 ¥ to pay some crooked doctor for some real metahuman tissue.

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 30 2011, 01:54 PM

Yep, that would work for me.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 30 2011, 02:57 PM

Which is why their Lifestyle Costs increase. Not sure why you are arguing this. They get their Blood, and their regular food. Easy Peasy.

Or do you make your normal characters actually roleplay out their feeding habits at the Noodle Boy Shop, too?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 30 2011, 03:09 PM

Yeah, I think I'm gonna stay out of this for the time being....

Posted by: Starmage21 Jul 30 2011, 03:51 PM

I posit that the life of a shadowrunner is quite ideal for a vampire who isnt well-connected or rich. You were gonna kill that security guard anyway, why not take a minute or two and feed on his essence?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 30 2011, 04:15 PM

That also is a possibility. Assuming your team doen't geek you for doing so.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 30 2011, 04:16 PM

That's like comparing buying Aspirin to acquiring a container of Ringu. Food for Infected is not something readily available, so unless the player has a good concept how his character gets his meals (money, connections...), I wouldn't let him off the hook that easily. It's a negative quality which defines the character like few other qualities do, why should the player be allowed to ignore it with a simply 300 ¥ payment?

Posted by: HunterHerne Jul 30 2011, 05:26 PM

In that case, ask him to take a contact at a blood bank or something. That way he's got the on-sheet background for how he's paying for it.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 30 2011, 11:13 PM

Blood shouldn't be too hard to get.. any butcher has large volumes of it. If you have the money, it shouldn't be a problem.

Now, a vampire without any money, that guy's in trouble. But any vampire who's made it through the first few years is probably wealthy now. Just as a matter of natural selection.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2011, 03:15 AM

It is a Racial Quality, not a Negative Quality... They are different you know...
As for the availability of Blood. Just costs an extra 30% to your lifestyle. Done.
The fact that you wish to screw over the player, for something you would totally ignore for another, says volumes.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Jul 31 2011, 03:19 AM

And the last page or so of this discussion is TOTALLY why I thought Infected PCs (of any type) was a Real Bad Idea.

Okay, not TOTALLY, but it sure was one of the biggies.....

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2011, 03:30 AM

I think that they are ludicrous myself, but there you go.
We don't allow them at our table.

Posted by: Sephiroth Jul 31 2011, 03:40 AM

I personally don't have any problem with Infected PC's, but I don't think it's a character option to be taken lightly. You really have to be serious about it if you want to play an Infected, and remember that your character is a monster at heart in more ways than one. Not a "sparkly playboy that sometimes kills people but really it's ok in the end" kind of person. Absolutely not. Ever.

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 31 2011, 03:47 AM

Didn't even take a day after this. How quickly we fall.

Posted by: pbangarth Jul 31 2011, 03:50 AM

Yeah, it worries me that my 'lost in the wilds' Professor is likely the best buddy on the team to your 'trust no one and eat those you don't trust' Jovan.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 31 2011, 05:35 PM

So disadvantages inherent to races should only matter in games which keep track of the PC's toilet paper supplies? Looks like I can finally build my Naga archer, which sounds better than continuing this discussion...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2011, 05:42 PM

Nice way to twist my words.

My point is that there are already options to take care of the feeding issues sufferred by Infected. IF you are going to screw over a player for those eating habits (playing an Infected), when there are solutions already present, then you should also Screw over every other player when it comes to eating as well. If the Player forgets to mention that the character is eating, well, they should start suffering penalties for malnutrition.

Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it? Especially since there are already rules that handle Lifestyle. As I said previously, it is not HamburgerRun, or BloodRun; it is SHADOWRUN. Pay the lifestyle cost and move along.

Posted by: Sengir Jul 31 2011, 06:14 PM

All there is is an optional rule to take care of the Dietary Requirement, anything else is your personal house rule.


The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something that the character should be expected to do without difficulty. For example, if a character is driving downtown to buy soymilk and NERPS, no test is necessary.

Buying ordinary food: Trivial, no need to play Rolemaster
Buying food for Infected: Non-trivial unless you have a lot of cash, hence requires roll- or roleplaying. See RC pages 150f, 155f.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Jul 31 2011, 10:35 PM

Eh. I'd say that's Middle to High lifestyle. So being a vampire costs money; so what. You could give it an Availability if your lifestyle isn't good enough to afford pig blood with synthetic human flavoring.

How much time to you have for roleplaying with friends? Is beancounting the bloodbags really what you want to spend it on?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 12:42 AM

Buying Food for Infected is TRIVIAL... Just as trivial as a troll buying food.

Read Your own quote.

The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something that the character should be expected to do without difficulty. For example, if a character is driving downtown to buy soymilk and NERPS, no test is necessary.

Getting Food is something ANYONE should be expected to do without Difficulty. It is SO EASY for Infected, in fact, that they provide a solution right in the book for those who do not want to micromanage.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 1 2011, 12:42 AM

Yeah, I'm weak. Every now and again I think I should do something about that, but never do.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 1 2011, 12:48 AM

Sounds like you may need another point in Willpower.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 1 2011, 09:44 AM

If that is so, why is there an optional (optional, as in "not part of standard canon") rule for Infected, not for trolls? And why does the average troll put up with ersatz food if real meat is just as easy to obtain?

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 1 2011, 10:38 AM

But is worrying about what butcher you buy leftover blood from really interesting enough to spend gametime on it?

I'm all for charging Infected a premium on Lifestyle, because that is exactly what Lifestyle is for: to quickly get past the boring stuff and reduce bookkeeping.

Posted by: Manunancy Aug 1 2011, 10:50 AM

The lifestyle increas is in my opinion the splest way to deal with the issue, though keep in mind that teh lifestyle is mostly linked with there the character is living. which means there can (and probably will) be some problems when the charcter is out of his familiar turf. A troll ordering half a dozen MegaBurgerMeals won't raise many eyebrows and will find plnety of shops willing to serve him.

Getting things like fresh blood, pounds of raw meat or even weirder foods will be more of a problem, though there's always the 'munch on that guard' option. But goign that route will bring it's own set of problems. The cops might not be very motivated to catch some gonk who trashed a corporate office, but if the medias are harping 'man-eating monster running wild' headlines, they'll get far more nosy. And more likely to shoot first and burn the bodies later, no questions asked.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 1 2011, 11:07 AM

Sengir, TJ: stop it.

Posted by: Korwin Aug 1 2011, 12:50 PM

I wonder, why nobody mentioned the drug from Running Wild(?).
I suppose there is no Errata, since the german book got the same (uber) drug.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 12:54 PM

As I do not own Running Wild, I do not have any idea of what you speak.
What Drug? And, What Does it Do?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 1 2011, 01:30 PM

He may mean "Renfield", which is what the HMHVVI types use to create vampire pawns. The creation requires the Vampire to use his own blood, enchanted and with a dose of essance (1 point), and feed it to willing (or unwilling) victims. Once they are addicted (threshold 3, mental and physical), they are depedant on it for essence (as they gain essence loss, Carrier (HMHVVI) and Dietary Requirement (Renfield) upon addiction). The drug gives them 1d6 essence. It also grants +1 to Agility, Intuition, and Strength, Euphoria, Immunity to age, and an initiative pass.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 02:00 PM

Hmmmmm... Interesting Indeed.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 1 2011, 02:45 PM

Reminds me of Dresden Files, now that I think of it. Hm.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 1 2011, 02:47 PM

White Court, Black Court, Red Court, Jade Court... Be interesting to see if there's vampires that aren't HMHVV-Infected...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 02:50 PM

Jade Court? Must have missed that one. Which Book?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 1 2011, 02:53 PM

Jade Court is only mentioned, in Death Masks, IIRC.

Thing is, this is JIM BUTCHER. He doesn't casually mention anything that isn't going to be some major event later on... And they might not be too happy with someone that has the power and ability to wipe out an ENTIRE group of vampires with a single spell.

Posted by: Mardrax Aug 1 2011, 03:12 PM

Checkov's Court?

Also, the Jade Court is mentioned in one of the http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/ books.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 1 2011, 03:23 PM

I was at a Jim Butcher Q&A/book signing not quite a week ago. The Jade Court is precisely that - something that is not going to be a major event later on. He was surprisingly definite about that, given how reluctant he was to pin himself down on other potential future plots.

EDIT: One of the more interesting bits was that the RPG writers, in the original draft they ran by Jim, had done their research well enough that the in-character banter in the margins of the book had speculation in which they were entirely correct about major plot events, like the truth of the Black Council, etc. I believe that got Sharpie-vetoed, if I remember my copy of the book correctly...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 03:38 PM

Hmmmm. I am pretty sure I read Death Masks. Must have missed that mention...

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 1 2011, 03:41 PM

Shiro mentions them once. Harry had never heard of them, because they're isolationists on the far side of the world. We might - MIGHT - meet one before the series is over, but not a major character, just a reminder of what Shiro said, is what I remember him saying when asked on the subject.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 1 2011, 04:07 PM

When the guy wielding the Katana of Jesus says something, I pay attention.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 04:14 PM

Heh... Indeed...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 1 2011, 04:27 PM

Especially one that became a Christian due to being an Elvis fan.

Speaking of, JetBlack! We know (Out of universe) what happened to him. Could he come out of hiding (Eventually) and be legal?