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Posted by: Tanegar Jul 24 2011, 06:21 PM

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhE9UGQsIOoSdDZCUS1ndzFHWURGX2Z3a0lrenhHakE&hl=en_US#gid=0

This is my latest effort at a concept that has been kicking around in my head for a while now. He's not a chromed-out combat monster loaded down with heavy artillery; this street sam specializes in scenarios that require more subtlety. He's made to be able to talk or sneak his way into most moderately secure places (high security would require additional gear, preparation, support, or all of the above), take/kill/plant the objective, and walk out again without raising a ruckus.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 24 2011, 08:19 PM

I would seriously consider scraping up 6 BP to get muscle augmentation: 2 and muscle toner: 2. It is very much worth it. In fact, as good as synthcardium is, I would choose the muscle augmentation and muscle toner over it, if given a choice. They give only one less dice for skills in the athletics group, in exchange for improving infiltration, palming, pistols, and unarmed combat by two, giving you an extra point of base damage in unarmed combat, and raising your carrying capacity. Of course, optimally, you would have both.

Be sure of what kind of campaign you are getting into. If it is a shoot-em-up campaign, then all of that subtlety will be wasted, and you would have been better off with the combat monster guy.

Also, I can't help but notice that you've chosen a set of flaws that more or less cancel out the rest of the build. He's someone who is wanted by the authorities, whose biometrics set off alarms if they are ever checked (he has a criminal SIN, which has not been burned - and that doesn't work well in conjunction with the Wanted quality), they have a complete dossier of him on file, and he has a black mark against him in the shadowrunning community as well. The records on file flaw is fine for a former corporate or underworld expediter, but I would reconsider all of the other ones. There are flaws out there, such as big regret, or paranoia, that better fit the concept of an innocuous infiltrator.

Posted by: Traul Jul 24 2011, 09:21 PM

Since you are not going to spend a lot of time in the matrix, Attention coprocessor is much cheaper than Perceptive to boost your perception: 9000 for 3 dice and 100% legal.

How about Enhanced Articulation? Since you focus on Athletics and Stealth, it is starting to become a viable choice.

Posted by: Bushw4cker Jul 24 2011, 09:59 PM

OMG use Karmagen!!!

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 24 2011, 11:28 PM

An attention coprocessor and enhanced articulation are both on the in-play shopping list. Glyph does make a good point about muscle toner and augmentation vs. synthacardium; I'm strongly considering trading the latter for the former.

How would karmagen be a better option for this character?

Posted by: Miri Jul 25 2011, 03:26 AM

Instead of the Hammerli620 maybe think about an Ares Light Fire 70 with Silencer. You loose the Smartgun and Recoil but get a -5 Silencer mod. Guess it depends on how you have to draw your gun.. If you draw it cause you HAVE to shoot it out the Hammerli might be better.. If you draw it cause you need to take someone out quietly then the Light Fire might be better thought I see you have Unarmed Combat to maybe do that.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 25 2011, 04:21 AM

I was assuming you were stuck with build points. If your GM lets you use karmagen, then yes, it would be a better option for your character. Looking at his current allocations, and converting them to karmagen (and yes, this is assuming that costs are updated to the new costs for Attributes), you gain quite a few points:

Race (Human): 0
Attributes: 280
Special Attributes: 0
Active Skills: 240
Knowledge Skills: 54
Resources: 64
Qualities: 0
Contacts: 0

So in karmagen, you would have spent 638 karma out of 750, and have 112 karma left to spend on resources (getting muscle toner: 2, muscle augmentation: 2, attention coprocessor: 3, and enhanced articulation would cost 32 karma in resources), more skills, getting rid of negative qualities, or even starting out with some contacts (unless the no contacts thing is an integral part of his background).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 25 2011, 12:58 PM

You have athletics 4 and spend another 20 BP for another die on ranged full defense. Just skip on dodge and raise gymnastics later with Karma. With a lenient GM you could even get the Gymnastics Dodge Specialization.

I second that the negative qualities are a bad choice for the concept.

While there may be more subtle pistols than automatic weapons, you would be a lot more versatile using Automatics.

Why don't you have ammunition for non-lethal takedowns? Your melee damage does not seem large enough to do it quickly.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 26 2011, 06:51 AM

Values assume german errata'd karmagen.

Cash ratios are the same as BP. Qualities have the same ratios.

BP attributes,
1 attribute point = 10 bp, or 0.025 total per level. Or .1 total points to raise an attribute from 1 to 4.

Karmagen attributes:
rating 2: 10
rating 3
rating 4 45/750 = 0.06 of total.
rating 5 70/750 = 0.093 repeating total.

Skills, BP:
1 group point = 10 points = same cost as attributes.
Group maxed at 4 is 0.1 of total points
Skill at 4 = 16bp/400 = 0.04 of total.
skill at 5 = 20bp/400 = 0.05 of total.
skill at 6 = 24bp/400 = 0.06 of total.

Karmagen skills
group at 4: 55/750 points/750 = 0.073 of total
Skill at 5 = 32/750 = 0.042 of total
skill at 6 = 44/750 = 0.058 of total

In summary:
Skills are half off, specializations are half off, attributes are half off(the break even point where it starts to get more expensive is in the 4 going to 5 range). Qualities are veeery slightly more inneffecient, as is the cash, but its in 2500 nuyen chunks so you can control it more finely than before.

For a sammy who's core character traits rely on Money Stats and Skills, everything you want is cheaper for you. Karmagen is fantastic for the middle/moderate skilled man: The Joe Average Plus that breaks the bank in BPgen. The only downside is you have to pay for knowledge points, but you'll have a bunch of free point sto do it.

Seriously, convert it to karmagen and see how much you are ahead.

Posted by: Falanin Jul 26 2011, 07:41 AM

As low-profile as you may want to be, you used the word "sam" when describing the quiet man. Not just a covert-ops guy or an infiltrator, a sam. If you truly mean to fill the role of the combat guy in the team, low-intensity and subtle or not, I have two recommendations.

1. Body 4. This is the minimum I accept in my primary combatants. It lets you wear 6/4 armor (lined coat, armored vest, chameleon suit) and still put a half-suit of form-fit under that. The most you get out of body 3 is an Actioneer business suit with a form-fit T-shirt. You're not even taking 0 damage from a holdout (on average) with that armor rating.

2. A long-ranged weapon skill. It doesn't really matter whether it's automatics, longarms, or heavy weapons (though if you just want to use captured weaponry, automatics is probably your best bet), but as a primary combatant, you will NEED a way to handle targets outside of pistol range. A drone hovering 65m above the building is invincible to your current build, as are guards on the roof across the street.

Hope this helps.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 26 2011, 08:57 AM

I really like this concept too - being able to walk past both cyberware/MAD scanners and assensing without raising flags is awesome.

My advice:

Lower Logic to 2, you don't need the stat for anything and the concept works fine with average Logic. Raise Body to 4 instead, with armor it gets you 3 more soak dice.

Replace Pistols 4 with Pistols (semi-automatics) 2+2 and Automatics(assault rifles) 1+2. Same BP cost, generally much better utility for very few downsides. Maybe get the specs in game for better use of BPs.

You need more Edge. Lots more Edge. Con and Disguise rolls will fail at times when you can't afford them to. Drop dodge and lower Athletics to 3 to get Edge 5.

I'd consider a lower Charisma. Maybe get tailored pheromones instead, and/or or Thrustworthy (Con) quality.

I agree with most of the above (drop dodge you have gymnastics, get muscle toner and aug, get other neg qualities). I wouldn't get attention coprocessor, it will show up on scans and is pretty much only of use to security and law enforcement types. Reception enhancers are more expensive but undetectable.

You're going to run into trouble with the gear BP max, but getting synaptic booster 2 only costs 16 BP, if you lower Reaction to 3 you're still at the same effective Reaction and only need to find 6 BP for an extra IP...

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 30 2011, 04:21 PM

Converted to karmagen. This enables me to pick up muscle toner and augmentation 2, an attention coprocessor, miscellaneous additional gear, the Influence skill group (desperately needed for the concept to work), and an additional point of Body.

I'm keeping the negative qualities, largely because I like the story they tell. Quiet Man (real name and aliases TBD) was involved in a run that went south in a very messy, very public way. It wasn't his fault, but his rep is stained by the association. He got caught, went to prison, broke out, and is now picking up his career where he left off.

Posted by: KCKitsune Jul 30 2011, 06:40 PM

With Body 3 you can wear full body FFBA and an Ares Aces High jacket. Add in forearm, thigh, and Leg and arm casing PPP that gives you 9/9 armor.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 30 2011, 07:10 PM

You know, it occurs to me that, although I've seen a number of posts about the way that walking around with big guns raises alarms, I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention that lots of armor does the same thing. If you roll up dressed for a firefight, assault rifle or not, local security/law enforcement is going to give you a hard stare. The Hammerli and armored vest back up his legend: "Who, me? Maxwell's the name, Quentin Maxwell. Freelance bodyguard. Of course you can see my license, officer. Yes, the pistol and vest are work-related. I'm meeting a new client here. Have to look the part, don'tcha know. Have a nice day." Head-to-toe bulletproofing is counterproductive to this character.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 30 2011, 07:13 PM

And this will not even regularly stop the shot from a hold out with a single net hit.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 30 2011, 08:37 PM

Just as with guns, it depends on how obvious it is. Some armor is subtle, such as form-fitting body armor, the discrete version of PPP, armor vests, and so on. Unless you are specifically looking for it, and know what to look for, it's hard to spot.

Some armor is designed to be stylish and/or resemble ordinary clothing, like armor clothing, actioneer business suits, and such. Even in an environment where people recognize it as armor (obviously, most corporate types will know that a Zoe suit has ballistic weave in it), it still won't raise any eyebrows.

Some armor is obvious, but functional in ways that are not obviously combat-related. I'm talking about things like winterized coveralls, bunker gear, urban explorer jumpsuit, biker armor, etc. Worn where such clothing is plausible, it doesn't stand out. Obviously, wearing biker armor into a boardroom is a different story, unless your cover is that you are a pro biker looking to do an endorsement deal.

Some armor, such as armor jackets and lined coats, is obvious, but still fairly common. You might get disapproving glances if you are so uncouth as to wear your armored jacket at a downtown upscale restaurant, but you won't really get any extra attention strolling down the street with it.

Finally, you have the obvious armor such as chain mail, SWAT armor, and the milspec stuff. Unless you are making a full-out assualt on a relatively isolated target, such armor is rarely a good idea, and it will draw the attention of law enforcement.

But overall, you be significantly armored without it being obvious.

Posted by: Tanegar Jul 30 2011, 09:18 PM

I also contest the idea that "street samurai" necessarily equates to "rifle-toting commando." Molly, She Who is First Among Samurai, is never seen to be packing anything more powerful than a needler. Granted, this is largely a function of the type of campaign; in a pink-mohawk game, Ares Alphas and heavy armor may well be de rigeur, but Quiet Man's modus operandi kind of clashes with that kind of game anyway.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 30 2011, 10:35 PM

To me, a street samurai's arsenal depends more on the job than "the kind of game". An over the top action game still has AAA zones, and a gritty noir game still has times and places where you need to pack more than a pistol.

Obviously, if your preferred tactic is quiet infiltration using stealth or fake credentials, you will be packing light. Keep in mind, though, that even in a gritty noir campaign, shadowrunners can get hired for jobs where more firepower is a good idea.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 31 2011, 03:13 AM

Only assuming that you are just standing there when you get shot. 12 Dice to soak is not all that Horrible.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Jul 31 2011, 06:07 AM

I'm not saying this is horrible and not being in the line of fire is also a good part of staying alive but REA 4(5) isn't that great either and you need at least 15 dice to soak the smallest possible bullet wound half of the time.
Since the character ha gotten BOD 4 in the mean time I'd suggest buying FFBA full suit, all PPP except the helmet and the Aces High Jacket. Unless the GM let's you get away with the full FFBA bonus without gloves and hood, you will have to put them on once you are out of view. This setup gives you BOD 4+ 11/9 dice.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 31 2011, 09:38 AM

Yeah, right tools for the right job. Even Gibson's very non-pink mohawk books has them shooting out an entire skyscraper floor with a recoilless rifle at one point.