Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Wolfgar Jul 25 2011, 07:11 PM

Hello everyone, I've recently taken a shot at standardizing the 'magical' knowledge skills in my game, and I'm toying with writing a list for players to choose from. The goal is to provide consistent knowledge skills with obvious in game applications, with little overlap. I find my players turn first to their own knowledge skills rather than going to contacts (I think this stems from playing Mage: The Awakening and D&D, who have set knowledge skills).

What I did was told my Magicians that three separate knowledge skills would cover most questions they could ask- "Astral Knowledge" would cover info on Spirits and Astral planes, "Spellcraft" would cover spell effects, foci, and magical traditions, and finally "Paracritters" would cover awakened animals and potential animal telesema. The groups Magician took all three, while the Mystic Adapt skipped Spellcraft.

Now, you can't standardize skills without sacrificing the creativity allowed by Knowledge skills. Hopefully players will pick a few from the list and come up with some on their own. I'm sure dumpshock can come up with a list to cover the basics. What knowledge skills do runners turn to the most?

For starters, here's some I've come up with. I'd rather they be too broad than too specific, and I'll see what people think.

Street Skills
Organized Crime (Spec- Mafia, Vory, Tongs, etc.)
Street Drugs (Spec- by Drug type) (I always thought Street Drugs was more of a Street skill, I mean it's in the title.)

Professional Skills
Corporate Structure (Spec- by Corporation) (Useful for figuring out if Johnson is a little fish or a shark.)
Tactics (Spec- Small Unit, Armored, Naval, Drone Deployment, etc.) (Something to supplement the Leadership skill.)

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 25 2011, 07:55 PM

Accounting
Law
Logistics
Management
Engineering
Construction
Finance
Physics
Chemistry
Biology
Psychology
Sociology
Math
Economics
Computer science
Law enforcement
Forensics
Politics
Journalism
Public administration
Anthropology
Tradecraft
Con schemes
Smuggling
Weapon systems

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 08:07 PM

Euro Wars
Desert Wars
Militrary Hardware
Black Ops Specialists

Posted by: Wolfgar Jul 25 2011, 08:19 PM

Okay, here's how I would standardize those, to make it easier on the player-

Academic- Modern Wars (Spec-Euro Wars, Yucatan Uprising)
Interests- Premium Television (Spec- Desert Wars, LA Live Runner Feeds, Urban Brawl fights)

Military Hardware could stand on it's own with Specs inside, but I don't know what you mean by Black Ops Specialists, too vague.

Smokeskin, I'd make Accounting, Management, Finance specializations of a "Business" professional skill, with Economics as the academic alternative.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 08:25 PM

Black Operations Specialists (Russian BOS, UCAS BOS, British BOS, ARES BOS, etc.). They are those people who are in the business, but who are not generally considered Freelance (which I usually refer to as Shadowrunners)...

Posted by: Wolfgar Jul 25 2011, 08:38 PM

Ahh, I gotcha. I can see it now...

GM "You see five men in combat fatigues carrying Ares Alphas."
Player- "It's cool guys, I got this."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 08:45 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Makki Jul 25 2011, 09:04 PM

Player "What do their haircuts look like?"
GM looks puzzled and describes whatever he thinks
Player Character "British BOS! Very distinctive hairstyle!"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 25 2011, 09:19 PM

That may be a case where the character's player knows more about the subject than the GM does. Anyways, I prefer my specialty to indicate an acquaintance (Who's Who List; after all, at a certain level, there are just not that many people in the trade) rather than a specific group, though they both have their uses.

Posted by: Doc Byte Jul 25 2011, 09:52 PM

My list of magical knowledge skills:

Security Procedures: Magical
Forensics: Magical
Metaplanar Theories: Specific tradition or plane
Magical Theory (kind of leftover from previous editions): Specific tradition
Magical Artifacts / Objects: By tradition / era (e.g. 4th World) / place / function / etc.
Magical Effects: Mana Storms, Alchea, etc.
Magical Places: By tradition, country, etc.
Spirits / Astral beings: By type
Parazoology: Type, country, etc.
Parabotany: Type, country, etc.
History of Magic: By era, place, tradition, etc.

Posted by: Wolfgar Jul 25 2011, 10:06 PM

THIS. That's exactly what I'm talking about people. Although I'd fold Metaplaner Theory and Magical Effects into Magic Theory. And maybe take Parazoology and Parabotany and make one Para-natural Studies (or call it Awakened Nature).

Posted by: Bodak Jul 26 2011, 01:36 AM

Leadership? Isn't that one skill that has no function / purpose / rules except for if you have an Adept with Commanding Voice? Would supplementing a skill that does nothing make much difference?

My characters always have the knowledge skill: Shadowrunning. It's an in-game phenomenon, after all. Depending on the character's mindset, this is either Professional (for a tactical runner) or Street (for a more pink-mohawk character).

I find plenty of characters benefit greatly from their players' intimate knowledge of the rule books but the character has spent / invested nothing to get this boon. By having a concrete knowledge skill I can gauge how savvy my character is. I could see him being aware of certain items and properties in the books, but being completely oblivious to obscure exploits, with generally nuanced info being only available if he has the skill at a high rank and rolls well.

Posted by: Makki Jul 26 2011, 01:48 AM

The new rules for the Leadership skill one of the very very few things War! did good. I really like them. It's now the skill with the most rules for it.

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 26 2011, 02:57 AM

Security Procedures: Matrix
Hacking Exploits: Malware, Backdoors, Botnets
Data Havens: Shadowrunners, Conspiracy Theorists, Public
Matrix Phenomenon: Technomancers, AIs, Dissonants
Simsense: Skillsofts, BTLs, Sim Recordings
Matrix Media: Spamming, P2.0, Blogs

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 26 2011, 04:44 AM

This has been done a few times before on dumpshock.

I USED To have a handy list of the big posts, but i lost it.

Try the search function for "knowledge skills" and go for the http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=17167&hl=knowledge+skills

also http://www.ci-n.com/~jcampbel/rpgs/shadowrun/skills.html

Sometimes i really wish we had game resources stickies in this forum.

Posted by: Cain Jul 26 2011, 08:24 AM

Personally? I don't see the need. Knowledge skills come in basically two flavors: General knowledge of a subject, and vanity skills. For the general skills, it's always a game to make them as broad as possible while still being specific enough to get useful information. I do try and reward specific knowledge skills with a lower threshold, but it varies dramatically. Vanity skills might come in handy, or they might never come up at all; they're just there to give a character some depth. I mean, when is NASCAR racing ever going to be used as a shadowrunning skill?

Posted by: PoliteMan Jul 26 2011, 08:26 AM

Hey, 6 ranks in cyberpunk fiction and pen&paper RPGs is a great investment.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 26 2011, 08:35 AM

Useful for Non-Metahumans

Metahuman Society
Metahuman Culture
Metahuman Psychology
Metahuman Handling

The above should give AI's, Shapeshifters and other creatures an understanding in how they should care for their pets, food etc...

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 26 2011, 08:37 AM

Complementary skill dice in a car chase where you can only drive in one direction and only have left-turns?

Sooner or later it will happen.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 26 2011, 09:17 AM

I'd let a Tactics knowledge skill be used for predicting enemy tactics, discerning the enemy's objective based on his movements and gear, and such. Sure it is useful.

And Leadership has plenty of uses for people actually engaging in leadership roles. Boss calls an employee in the weekend, asks him to come in - that's a Leadership roll (fail it, and you'll have to offer him overtime pay and that's a Negotiation roll). How motivated and thus less likely to accept a bribe or steal is an employee? That's a Leadership roll. Effectively handling a project, so deadlines are met, resources are used optimally, everyone knows what to do - that's a Leadership roll.

Plus all the stuff in WAR! that gives bonuses to attack and initiative.



Me too, though I call it Tradecraft.

Posted by: Bushw4cker Jul 26 2011, 12:02 PM

Trid Shows
Unless you have Gremlins'4, I think most characters would have this skill at least rank 1, and it is actually extremely useful. What kind of paranormal animal is that??...you remember seeing this on Discovery Awakened Channel. Does that orc look familiar to me? You recognize him, he's an Ares Corporate Executive's son, he's on The Real Sixth World.

Posted by: Bodak Jul 26 2011, 12:07 PM

Ah good to know. I don't have War so only knew it was used for what the BBB / SM says it is... which is Commanding Voice alone. Sure, you could use Leadership to order lackeys around, but you could just as easily use Etiquette or Intimidation - and they have rules in the book they're introduced in. If they weren't going to supply any mechanics for Leadership until releasing War, I wonder why they introduced the skill stub unimplemented in the basic book? They could have introduced it and its rules together.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 26 2011, 12:54 PM

Leadership is as well-defined and with as many mechanics as Con, under Using Charisma-Linked Skills.

And if you think Leadership can be replaced with Intimidation or Etiquette, you need to read the skill descriptions again. Leading people is not just about instilling fear and otherwise fitting in.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 26 2011, 01:19 PM

When you are placing a bet with the bookies...

Posted by: suoq Jul 26 2011, 04:18 PM

I thought NASCAR racing gave you a bonus to making left hand turns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVdFJIEk5wY

Posted by: Cain Jul 27 2011, 12:33 AM

Now *that* would be an interesting Shadowrun, trying to sabotage a NASCAR race. And then placing a bet on it.

Taking a look at the sheet, though, I'm still not likely to use the Farming or Tractor Pull skills. But hey, I like vanity skills.

Posted by: Bodak Jul 27 2011, 11:36 AM

Eh. I reread the bumf and still have the same view. "Boss calls an employee in the weekend, asks him to come in - that's a Leadership roll" maybe in some games. In dystopian settings though where the megacorp owns the wageslave's accommodation, turning down an opportunity to serve on the weekend might mean someone else who is prepared to work weekends on short notice just to have a job at all takes your place. An indifferent boss would tell it like it is (etiquette) or remind the employee of the consequences (intimidation). A loyal, friendly boss might coax (negotiation) or reassure the employee that the boss will be working all weekend too (leadership) but the idea of honourable bosses in SR doesn't really gel with me. That sounds more like Birthright, or Rasczak directing the mobile infantry. It has lost that "little fish in a big pond" perspective.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 27 2011, 01:27 PM

Vanity Skills are good. I usually have a handful of them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 27 2011, 01:29 PM

My question would be Why is the Boss Asking? Aren't all Wageslaves scheduled to work 90 Hours per week anyways?

Posted by: Fyndhal Jul 27 2011, 02:11 PM

Here's the list of one of my current characters Knowledge Skills:

Posted by: Warlordtheft Jul 27 2011, 02:26 PM

You never know. Maybe the runners get involved in a shadow op involving racing team Ares and racing team MCT.

My general prinicpal (when GM) is that knowledge skills can be as broad or as specific as the players like. For example knoledge skill of Colt Firearms and Knowledge Firearms would overlap, but when making a knowledge roll regarding a specific colt peace maker the PC with knowledge skill Colt Firearms would have an easier time of it. Conversly they would look at at a specific Smith and Wesson and have no chance of knowing much about it other than it is not a Colt. The guy with knowledge of firearms would have the same degree diffculty identifying both.

Posted by: Smokeskin Jul 27 2011, 06:37 PM

Sure, you can have nasty dystopian working conditions. You could even have a military situation where refusing an order could see you court martialled. I'd still make it a Leadership roll. Getting your subordinates to do something, whether through positive incentives, implied threats, or identity-building and motivation, it is a Leadership roll. The tough boss with good Leadership gets employees that are scared of failing, eager to please and motivated to succeed. The boss who just has Intimidaion has employees only scared of failing, and at some point they might even stop caring about that, and they'll be eager to fuck him over if they think they can get away with it.

Bottom line is, I think Leadership is used when leading, with all the varied tools, positive as negative, that a leader has at his disposal. Intimidation, Etiquette and Negotiation is for when you fail your Leadership roll. Letting leaders get full effect from using those skills in normal leadership situations is imo a misunderstanding of the scope of the social skills.

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 27 2011, 09:48 PM

I generally agree with this.

Where it kind of falls apart and gets annoying is where the expansion books got it in its head to make a few, select knowledge skills necessary to do stuff.

Reprogramming nanites uses a knowledge skill. So does making plans for Modification. (the various Designs you see the sample characters have). Its kind of annoying realizing that knowledge skills are kind of useless and just for flavor, and then having it come back around and realizing that some AREN'T just for show.

Also, at our table, we have a houserule for knowledge skills. If you have one that applies to a task at hand, you can use your knowledge skill to Teamwork Test yourself, because you know what the hell you're doing. To date, I don't think anyone's ever tried to cheese it, instead leaving it as an occasional bonus - but were it to be used in another game, i would suggest limiting the dice to half the knowledge skill's rating, round up. This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

Posted by: Bodak Jul 28 2011, 02:10 AM

As http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30660&view=findpost&p=915958 that was planned for SR4 but was canned due to playtester cheese like knowledge: ballistics complementing all firearms tests.

Posted by: Giabralter Jul 28 2011, 02:29 AM

Academic--Parazoology (Awakened Animals)
Academic--Parabotany (awakened Plants)
Academic--Parageology (Geomancy, Mana lines, Magical places)
Academic-- Aetherology (phenomenon on the astral plane)
Academic--ArcanoArcheology (Magical artifacts)

Posted by: Udoshi Jul 28 2011, 02:32 AM

Yeah. If allowed to run freely, and accumulate massive hits with edge, its pretty OP.

Posted by: Cain Jul 28 2011, 04:40 AM

Oh, some knowledge skills are clearly more useful than others. Magic Knowledge and Arcana, for example, have been essential to mages from day 1.

I try to make the General knowledge skills useful every once in a while. Security design/Procedures pops up a lot in my game, simply because two players have it. The broader the skill, the more useful it becomes; I try and balance this by making the threshold higher on the general skill, but sometimes it's the only way to get the knowledge into the game, so I can't make it too high.

But I love to see vanity skills. Sometimes they even see use, like my mage with the Fashion skill. She also has the Fashion and Makeover spell, so sometimes GM's have let me use the knowledge skill as complimentary dice. It means I can make my disguises look very good, and we can pass off as a higher class of wageslave if need be. Other skills, like the sam with NASCAR racing and Farming, are probably never going to see the light of day. And that's okay, too; it just shows that there's more to him than shadowrunning.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Jul 28 2011, 07:25 PM

Isn't that really skill 0 (defaulting), though. Doesn't level 0 imply a level of knowledge that anyone would know by default. For instance, even with 0 in Pilot Groundcraft, you would be acquainted via general culture that to drive a car, you sit in the seat with the steering wheel, and you know that you turn the vehicle by turning the steering wheel, and push pedals to make it go and stop, and turn a key to start the engine. You will still have much trouble as you don't know the details like which pedal does what, and how much to turn the wheel, and such, so you would be terrible (thus defaulting at attrib-1).

I would say you could default on a knowledge test as well, instead of requiring skill 1 to be able to know that. I'm sure there would have been cheezy movies about most common paranormal animals and such that everyone would have come across.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 28 2011, 08:39 PM

Oh man, considering Nas' background, if he found out that's what really happened...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 28 2011, 08:54 PM

He'd Smile?

Posted by: CanRay Jul 28 2011, 08:58 PM

Read "A Night To Never Remember", it's in my sig.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 28 2011, 09:07 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Cain Jul 29 2011, 11:03 AM

This is one concept I've stolen from another game, Savage Worlds. They have the "common knowledge" roll, which is just a generic roll to see if you know stuff that isn't covered elsewhere. I just allow a straight Logic roll, no defaulting penalty, for everyday things. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? No penalty, just roll Logic.

Posted by: CanRay Jul 29 2011, 05:25 PM

So, something like http://lh6.ggpht.com/_nu8MnrzG0PA/SSvbE0H7qnI/AAAAAAAABEE/80tFTDlgb-w/common-sense_thumb%255B1%255D.jpg?

Posted by: Cain Jul 29 2011, 08:35 PM

Not really. It's mostly for the everyday things they should know, that aren't covered by existing knowledge skills.

For example: what's the shortest route out of the Barrens? If the character lives in the Barrens, he should know that. But, if he's being chased, it might be important-- I can't just hand it to the player. It also seems unfair to require an Area Knowledge: My Own Neighborhood skill, so I give them a roll at straight Logic, no defaulting penalty. Someone who didn't live in the Barrens, but did a lot of business there, might have the roll at a small penalty.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 29 2011, 08:42 PM

Covered: Area Knowledge Barrens (Shortcuts)

Your method is useful (gets you a bonus of 1 Dice over Defaulting) for some of the common things, but I just go with the rules for defaulting, personally.

Posted by: Draco18s Jul 29 2011, 08:49 PM

I always joke about that one to new players. "ShadowRun 1st Edition is technically in ShadowRun canon, you could take a knowledge skill for it."

Posted by: CanRay Jul 29 2011, 10:34 PM

6 Ranks in Porn will give you an idea of how to build an investment portfolio with both legitimate and illegitimate organizations that would make a Don's Money Launderer choke.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Jul 29 2011, 11:22 PM

That is a houserule I advocate as well, only to limit the cheese, I limit the dice as such: You only get bonus dice from your Knowledge Skill Team Test(s), to be used at a later date on the run, from your planning and legwork (see: Preparation) stage of the run, after that Active skills are in effect and the bonus from the Knowledge skills gets used up when appropriate to abstractly represent how the runner used their knowledge of whatever to improve their chances on the run. If a Complication comes up that wasn't planned for, no bonus knowledge dice for it. Its sorta like a more limited (GM discretion, situational) edge pool with no exploding dice. Hannibal from the A-Team would be crazy good at this, just to think of a fictional example - "I love it when a plan comes together..."

I hope that makes sense, I think I have mentioned this idea before in other threads.

Posted by: Cain Jul 30 2011, 06:00 AM

You can't have knowledge skills for everything. You only have so many points, and if you go over your freebies, you start cutting into points that could be used for other things. I think it's kinda unfair to make characters spend points to know how to find the corner market in their own neighborhood.

To go with another example: my players don't know as much about the Shadowrun world as I do. The characters should know where things like Dunkelzahn's Rift is, but ofttimes the players don't. If one piece of common knowledge becomes important, they can make a straight Logic roll for it. Knowledges are for specific things your character knows; Logic is for general knowledge checks.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Jul 30 2011, 02:42 PM

Which is covered by the Attribute-1 Skill Test normally used for Defaulting. Don't see any problems with that. Which is why the Defaulting rules are there, after all. As I said, I have no real issues with your solution. It only adds 1 Dice to the role, after all. I just do not use that. I stick with the rules for defaulting.

Posted by: Cain Jul 30 2011, 07:33 PM

Okay, but I also have a Logic 1 troll running around in my game. This was against my better judgement: the character was designed by a person no longer allowed at my table, and the player has special needs, so he didn't fully understand how badly he was gimping his character. But he was convinced that trading mental stats for Body was the way to go. He's learned some since; but technically speaking, he can't even roll to find the nearest bathroom. That's simply not right: even Logic 1 characters, crippled as they are, should know some things without needing a specific skill.

Posted by: Nath Jul 31 2011, 10:11 AM

Logic 1. The character has the shortest attention span you can imagine, short of brain trauma or disease. When he wake up in the morning, he has a hard time remembering what was on the evening news yesterday, often because he don't care (he would have invested some karma in a knowledge skills otherwise). Maybe he'd get a bonus to remember the commercials. The only "knowledge" he has are related to his job, and actually are Active Skills. To find the bathrooms, he should rely on a Memory Test (Logic+Willpower) if he ever came there, or an English Test (no test since rating is "N") to read the signs on every door and understand its meaning. I would consider standard pictographs as a Native language skill to anyone raised in a modern country.

I was wondering, how many people know what happened on Dealey Plaza (but to be fair, Dunkelzahn's death is a lot more recent events to SR characters) ?

On the original topic, you may take a look at http://www.udcc.org/udcsummary/php/index.php?lang=en, or http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12513/12513-h/12513-h.htm, or http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/lcco/. They have yet to include magic...

Posted by: Cain Jul 31 2011, 06:32 PM

Logic of 1 is indeed a mental cripple. And he has a Willpower and Charisma of 1, to boot. I could not convince this player that this was a severely gimped build; his special needs make him hard to convince. That said, it seems unfair to require him to make more mental tests than someone with a 2 or 3 in their mental stats. Even requiring a memory test is bad, since there's a good chance he'll critically botch it, and be unable to find his way to the restroom.

But even for a severely mentally disabled individual, there's some things they should know without requiring a skill. There should be no chance of him critically botching when he ties his shoes. Heck, the player has special needs, and he knows a lot of random tidbits that shouldn't even be lumped into a knowledge skill. For example, no SR4.5 character I've ever seen has UCAS politics on their knowledge list, but they can all name a couple of Presidents. By going straight Logic, as opposed to defaulting, this troll actually is allowed to know basic, everyday things. For example, he remembers where the local Stuffer Shack is, the names of his friends, and so on and so forth. (The player is indeed learning, for the record: he's raising his Willpower and Charisma, and is working on Logic.)

BTW: Dewey Decimal system does have a classification for magic. It's under 110, for Metaphysics. Yes, I used to volunteer in a library.

Posted by: UmaroVI Jul 31 2011, 06:57 PM

The other problem is this: if the Troll has to make a logic+willpower test to find the nearest bathroom, then Joe Average should too. But Joe Average with 6 dice on that test has about a 9% chance of failing. Do you really think that an average person has almost a 10% chance of failing to find a bathroom? Really? And if it's because the troll has 0 dice on defaulted Knowledge: Where The Bathroom Is At tests, then Joe Average also has a 45% chance of failing that one. I'm pretty sure an average person can find a bathroom more often than THAT.

I would argue that the answer here is pretty simple: the troll only has to roll when you'd make anyone else roll. If you make everyone roll .Logic-1 to find bathrooms than the troll will indeed have trouble finding bathrooms, but really I'd rather spend my time doing other things that playing Shadowrestroom

Posted by: Bodak Aug 1 2011, 12:46 AM

In SR3 I think there was an optional chargen rule (at least, I don't think it was a house-rule) that having an Active skill at a certain rank granted for free the associated Background Knowledge skill at Active rank -3. This could then be raised (if desired) independently from that rank by spending build points. The philosophy was that training an Active skill to a high rating is accompanied by study of the theory or increased awareness of the field.

Posted by: Cain Aug 1 2011, 01:42 AM

The actual solution is: Don't take Logic at 1, but that's beside the point.

I try to only make players roll when it's significant. However, sometimes some stuff might come up that's simply not covered under their Knowledge skills. Making them default to something that should be common knowledge seems excessive to me; a roll at straight Logic is enough. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? If it's in your neighborhood, you shouldn't need to take Area Knowledge: My Own Backyard to have a chance to find it. And for a evening walk, I'd just let the players have it. But if they're running out of ammo and need reloads in a hurry, Stuffer Shack might be the quickest place to go. The troll should have a chance to find it, just like everyone else.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 02:04 AM

The actual Solution is: Don't make them roll for stuff that is of no consequence...

As for your example of the Stuffer Shack. Use your Comlink. Nearest one will pop up in your window, and give you instructions on how to get there. What is so hard about that. You can do that today even.

If you are making them roll for every little thing that may have an impact; that is where you are making your mistake. Your Comlink will serve to identify 99% of the things you want in your neighborhood.

Posted by: Cain Aug 1 2011, 03:21 AM

Didn't I mention: Logic of 1.

He has no Computer or Data Search skill either. Or a Browse program. Which means, if he tries to default, he actually has less of a dice pool than if I made him roll a defaulted Knowledge check. He knows how to voice dial, and that's about it. Actually trying to dial up the location of the nearest ammo store, while under fire, is an example of a good time to roll.

The point is, even as crippled as he is, he should know some things without investing in a knowledge skill. He should not get lost jandering to the local Stuffer Shack.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 1 2011, 03:23 AM

With a Logic of 1, a fellow might get lost in his own museum!

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 1 2011, 04:21 AM

If he has a comlink, it has Browse 1.

Posted by: Cain Aug 1 2011, 07:07 AM

And with no Data Search skill, his dice pool is still 0. He can't even use it unless I handwave it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 12:39 PM

Again, why are you making him make a Data Search Roll? He asks his comlink, and it outputs a Destination. Are you seriously telling me that you make a character actually make a roll to find a Soykaf shop or Azmart? Really? This falls into the category if irrelevant information. Why are you having your players make a roll for irrelevant information?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 1 2011, 01:48 PM

I'm pretty sure if you want that level of detail on any neighbourhood, you need a mapsoft.


Actually, it is Scan 1 that comes for free. Browse has to be purchased seperately.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 1 2011, 02:30 PM

In 90 seconds I was unable to locate a reference for either (too lazy right now, and it's too unimportant) so I'm going to let it drop.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 02:31 PM

Who needs the level of detail at the Map level? Type in what you want, the device outputs 10 locations. As I indicated, you can do that, even today, and in environments that you have absolutely no clue about.

A Mapsoft would work as well, but it is not really necessary. Especially since your vehicle can go there automatically with a spoken command and no skill.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Aug 1 2011, 04:21 PM

I feel like an important thing was over looked in this conversation-

Q: Where does a maxed out physical attribute Troll pee?

A: ANYWHERE HE WANTS.

I like that rule

Posted by: Cain Aug 1 2011, 07:15 PM

Only under stress, or under fire. Orr when it's funny.

But if it ever becomes relevant, there's just some things anyone should know, without a defaulting penalty, no matter what their Logic is. Knowledge skills does not adequately cover it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 08:19 PM

I can see your argument. Like Usual, We see things a bit differently in the end. No worries though, it all works out.

Posted by: Aku Aug 1 2011, 10:46 PM

If I ever come across a GM that would make me roll to find a bathroom, the next character i make for him/her would have 6 ranks in Knowledge:Life Lessons

Posted by: Cain Aug 1 2011, 11:08 PM

The point is, defaulting to knowledge skills does not adequately model what people really should know. Your method doesn't work out, since the troll wouldn't be able to find his local Stuffer Shack, even with a commlink with GPS.


Life lesson: never make a troll with willpower 1. Your comment has inspired me: at some point during a battle, a mage is going to cast Influence on him, and he has to find the bathroom. His successes determine how long it takes to find one.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 1 2011, 11:40 PM

But this is where you and I would disagree. I would never require a roll for such things in the first place, where apparently, you would. And my example WOULD work out, because there is absolutely no need for a Roll to begin with. Especially since all the Logic 1 Troll would have to do is TELL HIS CAR to take him there. Done.

Knowledge skills are for things that you specifically concentrate upon in your life. I can guarantee, I do not concentrate on where my Local Grocery Store is located. That falls into the realm of knowledge that requires no skill, and no roll.

Remember, Logic 1 IS NOT NON-FUNCTIONAL. It DOES NOT denote someone with Mental Retardation. That requires other Negative Qualities, that could apply regardless of whether the Logic Attribute was a 1 or 7. I have known fully functional people that I would stat at a Logic of 1. They are still functional.

Posted by: Cain Aug 2 2011, 01:32 AM

I would if it matters. Or if it's funny. Humor is a big part of my game.

But according to RAW, he can't even do that. He's got no Pilot skill, so he has to default to something. Gridguide would be nice, except his history has him living in the Barrens, where there is no Gridguide. Technically speaking, he cannot do anything that requires a default to Logic, which includes just about every knowledge skill, including Area Knowledge.

But like I said: suppose some crafty mage casts Influence on him, to make him go to the restroom? With a willpower of 1, the mage will get a critical success, so the troll will need to find a bathroom in a big hurry. Suddenly being able to find a restroom *matters*. You can swap this with any other logic-linked roll; but finding the bathroom illustrates the point: by your rules (defaulting) he can't even find the bathroom. At least under my Common Knowledge houserule, he has a chance.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 2 2011, 02:07 AM

You realize that Driving 0 is enough to actually drive a car, right? It just means that if you're forced to make any kind of test to avoid crashing or doing a complex maneuver (more than shifting lanes) you fail. You can still get from Point A to Point B safely 99% of the time (it's that 1% or less time where that jackass cuts you off and you don't slam on the breaks soon enough to avoid him that you have to worry about).

Posted by: Udoshi Aug 2 2011, 02:40 AM

Nitpick: You default to Program-1 on the matrix, not Skill, because you default to Attribute and Program replaces Attribute.
See FAQ for details.


that being said, logic 1 still sucks.

Posted by: Cain Aug 2 2011, 06:02 AM

I'm aware of that. Since he has no Program, his default is still a -1. So, no, he can't use Google 2070 on his commlink according to RAW.

Posted by: Midas Aug 2 2011, 07:38 AM

Interesting all this anti-LOG 1 bias, especially considering how many Dumpshockers consider dumpstating STR 1 a clever thing to do. LOG 1 ain't brainless drooling imbecile, just as STR 1 characters ain't puny weaklings who can't lift anything heavier than a light pistol without breaking a sweat.

Considering how intuitive use of 2011 smartphones can be, your LOG 1 character shouldn't have a problem working the GPS on his 2071 commlink. RAW only requires rolls for difficult tasks or tasks under duress. As stated above, a REA 1 character with no skill can still drive a car, they'd just better hope they don't have to make a crash test during the drive. A CHR 1 character with no ettiquette skill can still order a drink in a bar. RAW thankfully does not try and bog things down by making characters roll for doing everyday tasks.

Your STR 1 no Climbing skill character can still get over a waist high wall, although they may take more time than everyone else and look rather awkward doing so. Under enemy fire is another thing entirely, and the poor mook is likely to get shot down as he/she tries to straddle the obstacle. In a similar way, your LOG 1 character can find the nearest Stuffer Shack or public toilet under normal circumstances. But when the lead's flying, panic might set in and he/she might make the wrong turn etc.

Posted by: Cain Aug 2 2011, 10:21 AM

The amount of duress required varies considerably, from GM to GM. Also, there's just some things characters should know, even if they haven't invested in the appropriate Knowledge skills. I haven't seen anyone take Knowledge: UCAS politics, but the characters should be able to say who the UCAS president is.

Posted by: Minimax le Rouge Aug 2 2011, 11:30 AM

Logic 1 and willpower 1?
hum right... raise your lifestyle by 20%. Yes, you send money to televangelists.

Posted by: Blade Aug 2 2011, 12:38 PM

By 50%: with 2 dice for memory tests you regularly critical glitches and forget you sent the money.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 2 2011, 01:03 PM

Interesting as I have a character with just that Skill.
And you are correct, to a degree. There are things a character should know without a relevant Knowledge Skill. These things are not represented by any rolls at all, as far as I can see in game. My question is still... Why do you want to represent them with such?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 2 2011, 02:55 PM

"http://www.menagea3.net/strips-ma3/is_reagan_still_president%EF%BC%9F"

Posted by: Cain Aug 2 2011, 07:50 PM

Because sometimes it does matter. A character without Area Background should still be able to find his way around his own home, even if he's under fire. Sometimes knowing things matter, like knowing that walking up to the Dunkelzahn Rift, sticking your arm through, and waggling your fingers at yourself is A Bad Idea. (The player, as I mentioned, is special needs: I give him the Common Sense Plus edge, for free, as often as I can.)

And there are things that sometimes pop up. For example, who is the current US vice-president? According to Senate.gov, most Americans can't answer that. But if you wanted to impress the players with how powerful the people they're dealing with really are, linking things to a vice-presidential visit might be a good plot device. Recognizing a famous star is another thing.

The whole reason we have Knowledge skills is because sometimes knowing things matter. If you're having players roll Knowledge checks *at all*, then you're representing this fact in game. If you're having players roll defaulted Knowledge checks, then you're recognizing the fact that there are some things players should know, without a relevant Knowledge check. To be very specific here, that's what I'm arguing against: a defaulting penalty on common knowledge. Defaulting shouldn't be necessary for some things; it renders certain characters utterly unable to find the bathroom.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 2 2011, 07:55 PM

Posted by: Aku Aug 2 2011, 07:56 PM

I had the same thought, then i went "i think it's ..."

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 2 2011, 07:57 PM

Wouldn't he just *look* for the bathroom? Most people don't know where they are in a given unfamiliar building. They wander around until they find them, aided perhaps by a general idea of where bathrooms tend to be (maybe an architecture Know), and of course by looking for signs (not to mention the obvious commlink/AR point, already mentioned). Or by simply asking someone. It's not a Knowledge skill at all.

I know it's just an example, and the skill ranks system is indeed crazy (at the low end, and the high end). It's just not a good example.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 2 2011, 08:17 PM

I have to agree with this sentiment. I tend to "Just Look" for such things in an unfamiliar building. Having to roll a knowledge check for something that cannot possibly be known unless you were the guy who designed the building, or you are the guy who downloads building schematics just to study, seems like a waste of game time to me. It is not a skill, nor should it be; and it does not need a general Knowledge Check, nor should it require one.

As Yerameyahu indicated, it is a bad example.

As for the question: Who is the Vice President? Seems like a good place for a Politics skill check, or a Defaulted general knowledge check. The problem with your assumptions, Cain, is that Common Knowledge is generally not, to someone. Thus the Defaulting Skill Check. By your own admission, most Americans DO NOT KNOW WHO THE VP IS. Seems like you are making my point for me. Why should this be COMMON KNOWLEDGE, if it is really not all that common?

Defaulting works. And in the End, there are just some things that should never require a roll. Why? Because they are Common Knowledge.

Anyways...

Posted by: Aku Aug 2 2011, 08:46 PM

To be fair, the VP really is not going to have a place in American minds, unless something happens to the President, or he goes and shoots people while turkey hunting

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Aug 2 2011, 08:53 PM

Point of order: Many knowledge skills link to intuition, and I'd rule that figuring out where the bathroom is comes from intuition. It's really easy to guess where a bathroom will be located in any given locale.

Posted by: Mardrax Aug 2 2011, 09:45 PM

Finding the Bathroom for this character should definitely be the best definition of 'Street' knowledge you can find.
Not just for this character either. Come on! It's the barrens. Who's going to stop you from whizzing against a wall/tree/(burnt out husk of a) car?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 2 2011, 10:49 PM

Free Toxic Spirits that live in those items?

When a burnt out husk of a car stands up and starts peeing on you, then lights a match and sets you on fire with it, people take notice and don't pee there.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 2 2011, 10:57 PM

I think I have a new run idea...

Posted by: Traul Aug 2 2011, 11:12 PM

http://www.goblinscomic.com/02082011-2/

Posted by: CanRay Aug 2 2011, 11:15 PM

I seem to give so many of those. Maybe I should do some writing or something...Ah Minmax the Warrior... Developing an actual character nicely!

http://www.goblinscomic.com/03032010/.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 2 2011, 11:40 PM

That's why I like the one...knife? brass knuckles? ring? that heals people when you punch them.

Posted by: Cain Aug 2 2011, 11:44 PM

Defaulting doesn't work, because as you pointed out, there's some things people should know. Not all pieces of common knowledge are Common, as the vice-president example shows. Some things matter. And just because you have to default, shouldn't make it impossible to know common things.

Posted by: Bodak Aug 14 2011, 12:58 PM

Ah here it is:

Posted by: Traul Aug 14 2011, 02:40 PM

Is there any reason not to use this for knowledge skills?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 03:29 PM

Because Cain wants everyone with a Logic of 1 to actually roll (and have a chance of Critically Glitching) to find a Bathroom in extremis? Personally, those types of things should NEVER call for a roll. If it is Common Knowledge, it is assumed to be known, after all. At which point, no roll should ever be required.

Posted by: Cain Aug 15 2011, 02:27 AM

Sometimes it matters. And if it does, people with a Logic of 1 should have a chance.

Recently, someone asked my players the VP question as an example. For some odd reason, it was the troll's player (who is special needs) who came up with the right answer: Biden. Now, this guy might charitably be given a Logic of 1; his schooling and ability to make conclusions is decidedly lacking. He doesn't remember who was President when he was born, but he was the one who came up with the correct answer. (He can also do Imperial to Metric conversions in his head, a trick I never mastered.)

By *your* rules, it's either yes or no. The GM is sole arbiter of what a player character knows. You're essentially committing an either/or fallacy: there are situations in between.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 15 2011, 02:32 AM

The player can presumably be trusted to decide if his character knows who the VP is. This falls outside the things that dice and crunch are needed for.

Posted by: Cain Aug 15 2011, 03:34 AM

That presumes a lot.

Additionally, the whole point of knowledge skills is that they might give useful information. There are many "common knowledge" things that might be useful to know, but may or may not fall within the grasp of a knowledge skill. If you need to escape from your home in the Barrens because a go-gang is after you, knowing the shortest route is valuable information. You should know your own neighborhood, even at a Logic of 1; and it seems very unfair to demand that everyone take Area Knowledge: My Home as a skill. Somebody should be able to default to common knowledge skills, without facing a penalty.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 12:55 PM

No. By MY rules, If it is generally accepted Common Knowledge (Players have input) then no role is required.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 12:57 PM

This presumes that you have an indelible memory for nooks, crannies, alleyways, and whatnot. In this case, I would have you roll an active skill to escape, not a Knowledge skill. It is likely going to be opposed. After all, the gang probably has the same advantages you do if they live there as well.

Posted by: Cain Aug 15 2011, 05:52 PM

So, it's either no roll is required, or no roll is permitted? That's GM fiat.


That's even worse. Knowledge skills are "free" to a limited extent, and I encourage my players to take fluff skills with them. If I required "common knowledge" knowledge skills, they'd be less likely to have interesting character-based fluff skills. Requiring active skills to find their way through their own backyard is just cruel and unusual punishment. Somebody with Logic of 1 should be able to get out of his own neighborhood efficiently, with or without an appropriate skill, active or otherwise.

My "special needs" player rides his bike here. Now, he could be considered to have a Logic of 1, and no area knowledge skills, because he doesn't know the bike paths that well. He's only had a bike for a month, after all. He's always made it here early, despite that. He doesn't have an "indelible memory for nooks and crannies", but he can use common knowledge and get here.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 06:29 PM

And you are making absolutley no sense. If it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE, it is Common, and therefore needs no roll.
If it is NOT Common Knowledge, then it is represented by either a Knowledge Skill, or a Default roll. As for GM fiating a roll is impossible. I have never said that. You can always roll, sometimes it just takes other things to allow that roll. Like Edge, or Equipment, or, you know, actual Knowledge. Of course, if it is not all that important to the story, why are you rolling dice anyways. If it IS important to the Story, Why can they not make the roll? You wouild think that if it was important, they would have taken steps to allow the roll in the forst place. So...

You do not need an Active Skill to find your way through your own backyard. But I do not consider a NEIGHBORHOOD to be a backyard. As for finding your way out of your neighborhood, I have seen people get lost in their own neighborhood. So, yes, Defaulting represents this very well, or you get an Area Knowledge Skill (City of Operation), or, you know, get a MAP/GPS System. Not sure why you are having such an issue with this. As for my example, I would use your Stealth vs. Perception if on Foot, or Vehicle vs. Perception/Shadowing for vehicles. The fact that you do not have an Area Knowledge Skill is irrelevant to the situation. You will either lose them or you will not. THAT is what is important.

As for yuour Guy. Your guy either obviously knows the Bike Paths well enough that a skill check is NOT required, or he has an Area Knowledge Skill: City Bike Paths. I think the difference between you and I is that I do not try to assign game world stats to a real person to try and make my points.

Also, how you allow people to pick their Knowledge Skills has absolutley no bearing on how Interesting they (the characters) become. If a character wants to take a Knowledge SKill that has little to no use, that is his perogative, and I heavily support that. Hell, I even do it myself. I often have many more FLUFF Knowledge SKills, because the character SHOULD have such Knowledge Skills for the concept. Does not make the character any more interesting for the other players (most of the time), but they are there for my own edification.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 15 2011, 08:39 PM

It seems like you're arguing against yourself, Cain. I'm not saying make someone default on something their character should reasonably know. I'm saying no roll is required. All your 'Logic 1 player' examples are nonsense, because he shouldn't have to make a roll in the first place. Or, in the case of *finding* the bathroom, the person looks for it. They don't rack their brains to remember where it is, they *find* it.

I hardly think GM fiat means asking the playing if their character knows a piece of common knowledge. If it's uncommon enough to make a Test, then it's uncommon enough for them to fail.

Posted by: Traul Aug 15 2011, 08:57 PM

Just make it a Memory roll. WIL+LOG. Problem solved (although I think INT+LOG would make a better memory stat, but that's another story).

There are even tales of people *asking* for it, but I think it's just one more urban legend.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 09:00 PM

Wow... Surely that is an Urban Legend of the greatest exaggeration....

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 09:06 PM

My personal opinion on how this is looking: Neither of you is going to back down, and are just arguing in circles.

My personal opinion on how to handle finding a bathroom, or their way around a neighbourhood, especially through means they don't tavel often: This would be a Navigation test, with applicable knowledge possibly providing a bonus. Or Intuition-1. If he uses his commlink map, +2. If he has an actual mapsoft, add it's rating to his test.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 09:14 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 02:16 AM

Memory Tests are WIL + LOG? I never noticed (not in a world where literally everything is always recorded). You're right, that's just weird.

Posted by: Cain Aug 16 2011, 03:54 AM

Common knowledge: who is the vice president of the United States? Who's the head of the Senate?

These are all pieces of common knowledge "everyone should know", but most people can't answer.

As far as my player goes, you don't know him, and we joke about the unreality of putting our stats in SR4.5 terms all the times. It's a running gag at my table. We joke a lot-- you do know how that works, right? I think the difference between you and I is that I can laugh at myself, instead of having everyone else do it for me.


That's exactly the point: if it's uncommon enough for them to fail, it's also means there's a chance they can succeed. Even a Logic 1 troll should be able to make a roll to see who the vice-president of the UCAS is. Under TJ's defaulting rules, he can't even do that.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 04:32 AM

I'm not convinced that's true. If they have Logic 1 and zero skill, they probably deserve to auto-fail (sans Edge) on something that's uncommon enough not to *be* common knowledge (which I earlier defined as 'not needing a Test'). There's a chance *someone* could succeed, but that doesn't mean there has to be a chance for 'Mr. 1-0'.

Agility 1 Pistol 0 has no hope of shooting someone across the room, and I'm fine with that. It's not that I don't see your position, and both of our positions are personal, subjective ones (though one is RAW, whatever little that's worth). You could use some kind of house rule for fractional dice, I guess: 1–0 = hit on 6 only? I forgot what rule you suggested earlier.

I know I focused a bit on your examples earlier (and not wrongly), but I understand that they're merely examples. Your position is roughly that things shouldn't be totally impossible for a player's character in an RPG, because that's not fun. I just think that the 'requires test/doesn't require test' categories, and the option of Edge, adequately address that.

Posted by: Cain Aug 16 2011, 06:12 AM

Quickness 1, Pistols 0 can still hit someone from across the room, assuming he aims. Unfortunately, there's no such bonus for Knowledge skill checks.

Basically, for nonspecific knowledge, I use the Savage Worlds "Common Knowledge" rule, which is a straight Smarts test. In SR4.5, that's a straight Logic test, no default. Which is actually fair, if you think about it: let's say someone has to calculate mileage for a long trip. That's simple algebra, but there's consequences for screwing it up (running out of gas). Since no one takes Academic Knowledge: Algebra as a skill, it seems unfair to penalize everyone (regardless of Logic score) for something they should reasonably know. It's *most* unfair to the Logic 1 characters, since they can't do it at all; but other characters still take a penalty to do basic math.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:03 PM

At which point they are not Common Knowledge. But, you could always use that standard memory Test that has been talked about. You know, the one that represents what one might know?



You know, you really are not all that hilarious. Just because someone does not agree with you is no reason to start throwing around insults. My point was that, even if the Player that you refer to does indeed have that Logic 1, he obviously has more than just passing familiarity with the routes he uses on his transport vehicle. As such, he is either sporting a skill, has a good memory, or is not as Logic Imparied as you like to imply.



First, they are not MY defaulting Rules (Read the Book, you will see that), they are the Rules right there in the Book (let me see... yep, Attribute -1... wow). An Attribute 1 Character Cannot default to any skill based on that attribute with a net DP above 0 at that point (1-1=0) without other influences coming to bear. So, unless there are other bonuses, the character is out of luck. Oh Well, too bad for him. Guess he should not have had an Attribute of 1.

Why? Why would the character not just look it up, or ask someone who may know? Why must there be a rule to accommodate someone who CHOOSES to have a low attribute? If the Player CHOOSES such a thing, after being warned about it, he should indeed suffer the consequences of that choice. In this Case, no defaulting unless there are other bonuses that come into play, purchase of the actual skill, etc. I think you are punishing a player (in some ways) for making him roll those "Common Knowledge" Rolls in the first place, and then rewarding other players by removing the drawbacks of a low attribute so that they may now succeed where they would have failed previously. If it is UNCOMMON knowledge, WHY should he not fail if he can't make the roll? After all, it is Uncommon, and not everyone knows the answers.

Again, there are already rules in place to handle such things. You either don't need the roll (No Skill Required, it is common knowledge), You use a memory test (for things that you determine may be less than common, but still do not call for an actual skill), you Default (and spend Edge if you need to succeeed if you are reduced to no dice), You purchase a skill to cover your knowledge gaps, or you fail the roll because it was not all that important anyways. WHY do you need a new mechanic to accommodate those who are gaming the system anyways?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:08 PM

And I say that there is absolutely no reason to have the character roll that test to start with. Especially in Shadowrun. Who cares about basic math (Advanced Math is generally covered in the various active skills, so not a need for those either)? Do you have them roll a test to see if they can read basic native language? If not, Why Not? Same basic Principle here. How about basic writing? Do yo make your players roll Writing Skills to compose a letter, or a message to their contacts? Again, why not?

There is absolutely no need for such rolls in game. They add absolutely nothing to the game, at the expense of time involved resolving the roll.

Anyways...

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 01:13 PM

Lets see... SR4A 148

If the character wants to try a test when he has no dice, make them use a Long Shot test. SR4A 61

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 01:16 PM

I would, if they took the illiterate quality.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:30 PM

They should not be reading/writing at that point anyways, because they are.... ILLITERATE. But just because they cannot read does not mean that they cannot communicate. Dictation is easy, and is likely done very often in Shadowrun. There is absolutely no reason to even roll such nonsense for a character that cannot read. They cannot read. Big deal. I know people who cannot read, and they function failry well in today's society (as long as they are not required to actually read), let alone a society that has replaced most common personal interactions with icons and pictures.

Anyways...

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 01:53 PM

Fair enough,. but there are times, when they may not be able to fully understand, but they get somewhere. That would be the test.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:58 PM

Why a test though? Understanding is not difficult, Reading/Writing is. Once you have the information (undserstanding) you just tell your transport to take you there. No need for the illiterate to do anything else.

Understanding is actually very easy in Shadowrun. There are translation programs out there for just that purpose, translating text to speech and vice versa.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 04:37 PM

Understanding how to do it cottectly. It`s wouldn`t be common, anyway, exceptionally rare, and situational, actually. Like if the guy didn`t have his commlink for whatever reason, but had to leave a message somewhere.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 05:00 PM

I can agree that in a pinch, where it is extremely rare, and highly situationally, it might require a roll.
Why is he without his comlink though?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 05:40 PM

My best guess, some NPC was smart, and decided he shouldn't be contacting his friends (by either shooting it away, or taking it off him before throwing him in a cell (or he escaped their grasp after being interrogated). Other then that, I don't see much reason, unless the GM is harsh with his AoE elemental damage.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 05:56 PM

Agreed. In the instance it becomes relevant, it is a Plot Point. Any other time, it is not relevant.

Posted by: Cain Aug 16 2011, 07:30 PM

What you threw was an insult. Rather than insult back, I threw a joke. Yolk's on you, this time.

Anyways, the point is that the moment it becomes important, the character suddenly forgets how to find his way around his own backyard. That's just not right.


In the same post, you referenced a Memory test, after several pages of saying that RAW demands we use a defaulted knowledge test. So yes, in this case, it is *your* house rules that are under fire, because they don't work. Now, if you don't like RAW and prefer to use house rules, that's fine; but you can't defend them and attack them in the same breath without looking like a total hypocrite.

If the player is a rigger trying to calculate fuel for a trip? It matters, a lot. Some people like that level of bean-counting, although admittedly SR4.5 does it a lot less than others.

As far as rolling to read in their native language: when I was eight, I tested at above college reading level. I learned to read on my mom's ICD books. But the first time I picked up a reference book on mycology, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. So yeah, making someone roll to read a technical book seems fair: but everyone should have a chance to do it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 09:09 PM

What the hell are you talking about. Defaulting works just fine... JUST NOT FOR YOU...
Memory Tests work fine for finding your way around your neighborhood, no skill required... JUST NOT FOR YOU.

Both of those rules are in the Book...
I can defend them just fine. And note... NO HOUSERULES...



No, it does not matter. It is not relevant to the game at all, UNLESS YOU MAKE IT SO, FOR NO REASON.



It has nothing to do with Reading a book, you could read it just fine, you just could not understand it. It has to do with not understanding the SUBJECT matter. THAT IS A KNOWLEDGE CHECK, not a Reading Check. And if you do not have the SKILL, you DEFAULT. AS the rules in the book already indicate.

Oh, and show me where the insult was in my previous Post... I looked. No insult I could find. If there is something in ther eyou find insulting, it was not intentional.

Posted by: Cain Aug 17 2011, 10:54 AM

Unless you have a Logic of 1. Or in your case, when you use it instead of a memory check, which is what you were advising for most of this thread, until someone pointed out that by RAW, you can use a Memory check. Still not much help with a Willpower 1 troll, but it's better than a default.


I just finished Ghost Cartels, and one PC bought a cutter in Japan. It suddenly became important on how he was going to get it to Caracas, how long it'd take, and how much fuel was needed. So yeah, it is relevant.

Or you could make a Memory test, if no knowledge skill was applicable. But are you really saying that reading and understanding are two separate things? In that case, I can read ancient Egyptian; I just can't understand it.

OK:

It may not be a direct insult, but it is decidedly insulting. I won't insult you back, but I think you can see how that line deserves an apology at the very least.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 01:21 PM

A player having a Logic (or Willpower) of 1 is not my problem as a GM. It is his problem as a Player/Character. He chose to have such, he should suffer whatever consequences are generated.

As for my addition of a Memory Check. Forgot about it initially, but it is a perfectly reasonable application for things that "should be common knowledge." If it is so common, then you can argue that the character has been exposed to it at some point, and so a memory test will work to bring that information to recall. See, No Skill is required for such things... Why? Because apparently, they are COMMON KNOWLEDGE, as you keep insisting.



I disagree. Did it add anything to the game? Did it matter whether he had "enough" fuel, or had to refuel twice? Was it an important part of the campaign that he sat down to figure out how much fuel was needed? I would say probably not in any of these cases. It can be completley handwaved or narrated. But I will humor you. All you need to know is Distance (easily acquired, no skill needed), and time to traverse that distance (again, no sklll required, look up the speed of the boat, calculate per hour if needed), and how large your fuel tanks are (measured in hours of travel in SR4). So you have Fuel Capacity (Hours), Speed (Per Hour) and Distance (How Long it will Take Total). Easily solved and no roll required. But again, I will humor you. BAsic Math can be covered by a Memory Roll, and there is no way yuou can say that this is NO basic math. Or, you could just as the agent in the comlink to figure it out for you (A rating 1 Agent will suffice after all). My Question is this: WHY would you need a roll for such a paltry thing in the first place? Is it absolutely Crucial that you have the answer for the game to continue? Or, do you just say, "Yep, took a while to get there as you travel the seas and oceans. You refueled a few times." If the scenario requires a strict accounting of time, then you should probably not take a boat. If it does not, it is inconsequential to the story.



Again, you willfully misinterpret what I said, and you know it. The book you referenced and said you could not understand; It was in your Native Language, Yes? I can read a Text book on high level physics and read it with absolutely no issues whatsoever, it is written in English after all. That does not mean that I can UNDERSTAND it. Understanding takes a Skill. Application takes a Skill. Memory tests will not help me in this regard because I DO NOT HAVE THE SKILL.

You cannot READ Ancient Egyption IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE (Have the Skill). Some things will REQUIRE a Skill. An Illiterate individual CANNOT READ, even in their OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE. Your proposed solution is to allow a Defaulted roll with no penalty, ostensibly so that the Logic 1 Character has a Chance to succeed. I call BS on that Sentiment. If he wants to succeed, he needs to either buy the appropriate skill, raise the Logic Attribute to 2, so he can attempt to default, or Spend Edge.

Back to your example of escaping your neighborhood. I travel my neighborhood all the time, I can have either a really good skill (Not Necessary) or I could just access my Memory and use that. Why? Because I live there. My Memory will work just fine for that application of navigation around my own neighborhood. I would go one further in the game, though. I would not have you roll to "Know" the back alleys and cross streets. Why? Because YOU LIVE THERE. If it became absolutely crucial to MAKE you roll for something that arbitrary (makes no difference to the game in play, has no application), it would be a memory roll vs. a Skill roll, because there is no skill needed to live somewhere. You saying otherwise sounds a bit asinine.



I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about whatsoever. Point it out...
As I said earlier, I cannot control how you interpret things, and if you see it as insulting, that is really not my issue. But if you point it out, maybe we will be on the same page and have a basis to address what is being argued here.

Anyways...

Posted by: Grinder Aug 17 2011, 01:23 PM

Uh, it's Cain vs. Tymeaus Jalynsfein again. How... great. And interesting. Not. So stop it right now.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 01:44 PM

This.
So much so that I'm tempted to sig it.

Posted by: Cain Aug 17 2011, 02:30 PM

I'm going to go back a bit, to a valid point made by someone other than TJ:

That's very close, but I also hail from the "Don't say no, let them roll" school of GMing. And telling them they can't accomplish something without arbitrarily spending valuable resources (like Edge) is IMO worse than telling them no-- it's telling them: "Maybe, if you jump through all my hoops first". It might be funny the first few times, but that sort of thing gets old quickly. I'll let people get away with a lot in my games,so long as it's fun; but that feels too much like player spanking to be fun for me. I'd rather put more of it into the hands of the players.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 17 2011, 02:36 PM

Oh yeah, fucking great.



Just a reminder.

Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 17 2011, 03:16 PM

I would think that Corporate Structure would be a spec for Corporate Politics.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 03:21 PM

You could definitely go that route. Knowledge Skills are highly mutable, after all.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 03:42 PM

Sure are:

Renraku corporate politics (16th floor)
Computer problems (friends and family)
Needed forms (TPS reports)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 04:14 PM

Assuming you want to spend those points in that way, I agree. Most would not, but I have seen stranger things in my time.
That said, I am a BIG believer in a ton of Knowledge Skills, both useful and flavorful.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 05:04 PM

Oh, I wouldn't. But there's nothing that says you can't do it.



Same. Even when I was building a BP strapped character (elf + drake) I spent about 2BP worth of points on flavorful items (cough, nexus) and had a couple flavor skills (one of which--Hacking*--actually came up).

*I was a mystic-adept! A mystic-adept I tell you! And I was still the only one who had any hacking skill (all of 1 point).

Posted by: Cain Aug 18 2011, 02:59 AM

Like I said earlier, I'm a big proponent of fluff skills. My mage has several fashion skills, to supplant her part-time work as a magically-infused hairdresser. That's actually a handier one than many others, since it means any time we have to go into a high-class establishment, we know we'll be dressed appropriately. I've yet to see Farming come up as a useful knowledge skill, but it's fun if you want to show off a country background. I did use Knowledge: Country Music to pull a "Back to the Future" on someone; the otaku hacked his pocket secretary so it wouldn't play anything but bad country, and threatened to keep it up until his brain melted.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 21 2011, 06:17 PM

http://youtu.be/Y5Sz8iLMayo

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 06:24 PM

That is clearly a language skill. : )

Posted by: CanRay Aug 21 2011, 06:29 PM

Unless all you can do is swear, badly.

Posted by: Cain Aug 21 2011, 07:12 PM

Hey, I can swear badly in twelve different languages. It comes in handy, no matter where in the world you go, you'll find some way of pissing someone off.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 21 2011, 07:21 PM

Don't even need a foreign language for that.

*Speaking Slowly And Loudly* "Can. You. Understand. Me?"

"Yes, I can understand you very well."

"Oh, you speak American. Good. I keep getting these Canadians who I can't understand..."

*Headdesk*

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 22 2011, 02:05 PM

Sounds like a http://notalwaysright.com/shogun-the-way-to-go-home/5890.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 22 2011, 03:27 PM

Sorry Draco18s, I forgot, didn't tell the whole story. There were a number of call centres, one of which was in Texas and had really thick accents (Not all of them Texan-English, either, I might add. Although to be fair, they were one of the main Spanish Support Lines.). The Texas center called themselves "Canadians" at times to "Cover Up" those accents. (At least, that was the prevailing theory. Never proven.).

Languages as Knowledge Skills are damned useful, BTW. During "The San Diego-Batman Job" my group had to deal with Aztechnology-Subsidiary Security Force Policemen who didn't speak a word of English (And none of the group had taken Spanish). The officer in question (As it was a major tourist city, and they were actually hired for politeness and keeping the people happy) downloaded a free translation app and, well, my group just barely understood him.

Linguisofts are good, but there's nothing like knowing the language itself.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 22 2011, 05:54 PM

Awful.
Of course (The Customer is) Not Always Right can swing both ways. There are customer service people at some companies who are complete morons too.

Did I ever tell you guys about the time I was on tech support for my laptop and the tech was having me go through diagnostics, and rather than actually do them, I was walking on my way to class and simply telling him the results (as I'd already said numerous times "I've already done that"). The man never caught on, despite the fairly obvious street noises he should have been hearing.

Posted by: Marwynn Aug 22 2011, 07:18 PM

Because people never bring laptops outside?

For every one tech support caller who knows what he's doing, how many do you think don't? The support guy can't take your word for it, he doesn't know your level of proficiency and he still needs to analyze and diagnose the issue himself.


I'm not a fan of Knowledge skills as they are. They seem too... vague or nebulous at times. It's a good system, adds depth to a character. But a normal person, let alone a runner, would know a lot more than the handfuls that you get.

I think there should be Knowledge Skill Groups (excluding languages).

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 22 2011, 07:26 PM

Considering I started the call inside, packed up my stuff, went out the door, locked it, and walked down the street....

He never even once said "I can't hear you because of the wind."



I once called and said "I have some dead pixels. How many are required in order to get my screen replaced?" And instead of giving me a number or asking how many were dead (it was a quarter inch diameter circle, so on the order of, say, 150?) I had to go through several diagnostic tests to do I-don't-even-know-what as they didn't detect the pixels as being dead nor do anything to undead them (or even look like it was trying).

After 20 minutes the guy said, "looks like we'll have to ship you a new screen, the threshold on dead pixels for replacement is 12."

TWELVE. I had more than 12 dead pixels. WAY more.

As for knowing my level of proficiency I have called up and said "I have run these exact tests, in this exact manner, with these exact results and nothing has helped me solve my problem. I need this part replaced."

Also, despite having to enter my serial number into the phone-jail system, the tech always needs to ask for it (I've never understood why).

Posted by: MJBurrage Aug 22 2011, 07:28 PM

Agreed that some knowledge groups would make sense. But I also think there should be http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Language groups. I use the old SR1/2 language families as groups, with a family costing double what a single language costs.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 22 2011, 07:35 PM

I thought all Knowledge skills were inherently groups. They're as broad or specific as you want, you just tell the GM. The broader they are, the less specific, which is why specializations are also available.

Posted by: Marwynn Aug 22 2011, 07:35 PM

Didn't know that existed, that's cool.

The reason I don't like Language "families" is that while some languages share similarities and you can do a reasonable job making yourself known by speaking a related language, the game system assigns a flat rating to all.

Hmm, maybe if there were Language groups/families that if purchased didn't give you all the languages but require you to select one main one and have the rest at a lower rating.

For example, Germanic: Afrikaans, Danish, Dutch, English, Flemish, German, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Yiddish.

You select German there and buy it at rating 3. The rest are at Rating/2 (rounded up) - 1, or 1. That way you have a primary language and it has some utility. Messier than a simple language group, but a bit more realistic than one fella who pics English as a natural language being naturally fluent in Yiddish as well.

Posted by: MJBurrage Aug 22 2011, 07:42 PM

Whenever I add new rules I try to balance realism with playability. Given how many technical ways there are to communicate without actually having the language skill, anything that makes languages expensive or complicated, makes them not taken. Also the "canon" SR language families almost never have more than three useful languages. So I went with the simplicity of a family costing double. Even at that cost, I have never had a player come close to exploiting it. Many never even make use of families, choosing only a few unrelated languages.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 22 2011, 07:44 PM

Yes, but a simpler (and in some ways, more accurate) solution is to just allow 'discount' defaulting on those. You have German 3 (and Intuition 3), you can default to Germanic languages using Intuition (-1) *and* German (-2, though, or whatever number works). Fiddle with the numbers, of course.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 22 2011, 08:50 PM

Hate to tell you folks, but I would suggest highly against this.

Having experience with a variety of languages going around Canada alone, I can tell you that folks even speaking the same language can have a hard time understanding each other (Acadian-French vs. Quebecois vs. French-Canadian, as just one example.). And that doesn't even bring into question Newfie, which is, technically, English.

Very, very, *VERY* technically.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 22 2011, 09:09 PM

Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pinky_and_the_Brain_episodes#cite_ref-80narfs_2-0.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 22 2011, 09:21 PM

*Shudders* Explaining a bill to a New York Cabbie who had his cousin housesit the apartment and changed the services a dozen times. And then there was Pay-Per-View.

...

I think I need my corner now.