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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Move By Wire question
Posted by: Crazy Ivan Aug 3 2011, 05:44 PM
Ok, I was never really initially impressed by the Move By Wire reflex system, since while I thought the skillwire system idea integration was cool, I didn't think the +1 Dodge and +2 Reaction were worth it. Then as I was making a prime runner for one of my campaigns using Nebulars awesome Chummer program, I relented and installed a set (Rating 2), then got really confused. I asked my wife, who has a good head on her shoulders regarding rules and interpretations of such things, and we can't figure out what exactly is meant by the writing...
Is the system (+1 Dodge and +2 Reaction, +1 Initiative Pass)/Rating or is it +1 IP per rating plus a set value of +1 Dodge and +2 Reaction?
If it is the former, I owe the Move-By-Wire system a huge apology...
Posted by: Sengir Aug 3 2011, 06:14 PM
Get a sixpack and apologize
Posted by: Crazy Ivan Aug 3 2011, 06:32 PM
And here I was thinking MBW was over-priced...Hello new best friend...
Posted by: Machiavelli Aug 3 2011, 06:53 PM
Welcome in the world of powergaming...^^
Posted by: Crazy Ivan Aug 3 2011, 06:54 PM
yeah, thats crazy
Posted by: Sengir Aug 3 2011, 07:01 PM
Well, the wording is a bit ambiguous, but looking at the old edition books clarifies the intent. Speaking of the older books, just because epilepsy and other brainfucks are no longer mandatory, you should keep such consequences in mind...maybe a slight tremor every now and then.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 3 2011, 07:04 PM
It's identical to Wired Reflexes, plus Dodge and Skillwires. If anything, it's weaker than SR3's, but indeed has no drawbacks. :/
Posted by: Makki Aug 3 2011, 07:16 PM
it also adds double the Reaction than WRs
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 3 2011, 07:19 PM
Ah, sorry. 
I forgot. I just remember how incredible SR3's was.
Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 3 2011, 07:33 PM
Aye... extra-actions.
Level 3 had a simple action and 4 a complex, when all is done it virtually no-time. But hey... didn't the level 4 in delta cost 16 million? *g* And mandatory once-a-month surgery to keep you going?
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 3 2011, 08:21 PM
What's funny is that MBW is the essence-friendly option. You pay more for MBW than Wired Reflexes+Reaction Enhancers but get just as much for less essence. Also free dodge and skillwires, whee. I do find it funny that if you want to, you know, avoid damaging your body/soul/whatever too much with invasive surgery, you go for the seizures.
Posted by: Crazy Ivan Aug 3 2011, 09:30 PM
That observation didn't escape me either...
Posted by: KCKitsune Aug 4 2011, 06:22 PM
If you want a fluff reason to not suffer from the seizures, then have a cyberlimb* with a nanohive installed. You then buy nanosymbiotes and there is your fluff reason that your character doesn't expire in great pain.
* == a lower cyber arm comes with 10 slots so you can install the nanohive, gyromount, radar, & cybersafety. You still have 1 capacity left over to install another item.
Posted by: Mongoose Aug 6 2011, 02:49 PM
Meh. Given just turn of the century tech, people with cerebral palsy can be plenty healthy, as far as basic (non motor) body functions go. Unlike many disabled people, they even typically have very good muscle / body fat ratios. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about their spiritual health, but from what I've seen they do as well as anybody else who faces the discrimination common to those with speech impediments and limited mobility / dexterity.
The MBW system is basically just a hack that uses cerebral palsy to control reactions. Not a big surprise that its more efficient (health wise) than using wires to control the muscles and (and juicing the body up with synthetic hormones, per the Wired Reflex descriptions), but was harder to develop / caused brain damage in beta version users.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 6 2011, 03:08 PM
OK, now that you know why the Crunch of MBW is so kick ass cool, read the fluff and find out why it's such a nasty, miserable thing to have in your body.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 6 2011, 03:13 PM
Having what amounts to a mod chip in the brain is a miserable thing, compared to having your entire body flayed open to install wires or synthetic nerve bundles?
-k
Posted by: CanRay Aug 6 2011, 03:30 PM
Move-By-Wire keeps your body in a constant state of movement almost identical to having a seizure.
All.
The.
Time.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 6 2011, 03:33 PM
Wired Reflexes used to do that to you too, back in the 2050s. Twitch Twitch Twitch. Maybe spaz out and kill someone before you can stop yourself.
-k
Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 6 2011, 03:41 PM
Believe it or not, I decided on the latter interpretation. It seems everyone here disagrees with me though, so I can change my mind.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 6 2011, 03:42 PM
Wired Reflexes still should do the "Kill someone before you can stop" if you have them on all the time, and were the Munchkin Gadget of the time. The "New" off switch for them, however, is nice. It's like Mad Max's V-8 Interceptor, where you can flip on the Blower and get some extra performance.
MBW doesn't have an off switch, so they've taken that new role (That's what I love about Shadowrun, Technology Marches On!). Keep your back to the wall, remind your Chummers to never touch you if they don't know you're around, and never make a threatening gesture even in jest, and so on... They could kill you three ways before you hit the ground and not even realize it.
Gets kind of hard on friendships that way.
Posted by: Mongoose Aug 6 2011, 05:09 PM
So does a certain natural condition called Cerebral Palsy. Its a VERY survivable condition, of which nearly 100% of the health issues relate to difficulty with daily tasks. MBW users obviously would not have those problems.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 6 2011, 05:19 PM
Just beware...it's a fickle, fickle bitch sometimes....
Posted by: CanRay Aug 6 2011, 05:22 PM
Nada: "Brother, life's a bitch... And she's back in heat." - They Live
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 7 2011, 03:16 AM
Story-wise, there's also the stuff that isn't officially statted out but implied in the commentary about MBW. They may have treatments to manage the neurological problems, but how many samurai are gonna intentionally brain-damage themselves in the long term, when the decades-reliable Wired Reflexes technology works almost as well without the side effects? Sure there's always the crazies that don't think about tomorrow, just more edge now. But the real stone-cold big-picture pros? I dunno, i just don't see Argent endorsing it. Depends on character personality, I'd think.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 03:44 AM
Um, actually, Argent does endorse it. Or, if he doesn't, he still uses it. "Run Hard, Die Fast".
But, yes, it's the hard part of a choice of edge now or life later. As most (Like 90%!) Shadowrunners don't live a year, the edge seems so much more.
Posted by: Glyph Aug 7 2011, 04:21 AM
Plus, if you are one of the few shadowrunners that makes it, you should be able to afford the surgery and gene therapy to fix the neurological problems. I look at 'ware like that as being similar to smoking - it will kill you eventually, but not in a time frame that will be very relevant to the game. Although you can take temporal lobe epilepsy as a negative quality, if you want to roleplay someone who is being burned out by his 'ware.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 03:06 PM
"... You smoke?" "No." "Start. You'll find a bag of anti-cancer prescription in the bathroom already if you don't have the trait." - Transmetropolitan
Posted by: KCKitsune Aug 7 2011, 03:36 PM
Why wait that long? If you have a cyberlimb get a nanohive and nanosymbiotes. That way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 03:39 PM
Nanocake is a lie.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 7 2011, 04:18 PM
But what about NanoHeroin?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 7 2011, 04:40 PM
It's all just fluff, so it's up to you to decide. Nanosymbiotes help healing tests, that's all (no TLE-x); on the other hand, MBW doesn't *cause* any real (crunch) diseases, so feel free to say that your clapping is keeping away the elephants.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 04:55 PM
Posted by: Grinchy McScrooge Aug 7 2011, 05:21 PM
Heh. Love me some Spider Jerusalem. He, along with Egg Shen and David Lo Pan, are NPC's in my game. Possibly Prime Runners too, if I ever find the time to stat them out. Also, if my players don't stop being quite so stubbornly Pink Mohawk, I'm throwing Akira at them.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 05:27 PM
I base a bit of Pup the Dog Shaman on Spider.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 7 2011, 06:15 PM
Remember that AKIRA is their Friend.
They need to look out for Tetsuo.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 9 2011, 12:07 PM
MBW is clearly a good package, but it's not good for a starting sam, because you can't get MBW3 at chargen, while you CAN get Wired3. That might lose you two actions per round compared to Wired3, since you might have to full-dodge in IP4 if any opposition has 4 IPs. Of course, noone will dodge better... .
I think as it is I would give MBW2 to a tech guy/utility guy with a bunch of pirated skillsofts and a few drones, but not to a sammy, but maybe I'm just not looking far enough .
Posted by: mmmkay Aug 10 2011, 01:25 AM
.I think as it is I would give MBW2 to a tech guy/utility guy with a bunch of pirated skillsofts and a few drones, but not to a sammy, but maybe I'm just not looking far enough
.Street sams are not good unless they are spending 5 essence on Wired Reflexes 3? 5 essence is enormous and even if you switched to alphaware you are suddenly spending 40 BP on 1 piece of gear. Perhaps you're saying that you prefer your starting sams to be useless at their job and only when they make a boatload of money can they truly become good street sams. I think MBW2 is infinitely preferable to Wired3.
Posted by: Glyph Aug 10 2011, 01:27 AM
Maxing out IPs at char-gen is like maxing out most other things at char-gen. It's usually overkill, and it has a high opportunity cost. I generally like wired: 2 plus reaction enhancer: 2 or MBW: 2 for a typical street samurai. That's usually enough for most opponents, and you will likely have upgraded by the time you're running into the heavier hitters.
It depends, though. In some campaigns, even 2 IPs might be plenty, while in others, you might get tossed into the deep end right away.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 10 2011, 04:42 AM
A lot of sammies I've seen that survive long enough seem to go with Wired at CharGen and upgrade to MBW later, filling the Essence holes with other stuff.
-k
Posted by: phlapjack77 Aug 10 2011, 05:13 AM
This
I see it as a flavor thing, MBW seems more "cutting edge", so if your character concept has the character using cutting edge tech, get MBW. If the character is more street-level or whatever, get WR at chargen.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 10 2011, 08:21 AM
It depends, though. In some campaigns, even 2 IPs might be plenty, while in others, you might get tossed into the deep end right away.
Well, maybe we're just running a high-powered game right now, maybe my view is skewed. At our table (an all-awakened table, at the moment, with three adepts and a mage), basically everyone except the tech guy has 4IPs, and I have to talk to him, because I think he made a mistake, or at least built differently than the rest.
Well, it all reflects back on the game world: basically I don't even need to bother with fights against 1IP enemies, I can just handwave those. And every simple corpsec guy will have either wired 1 or a shot of something...
Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 10 2011, 06:17 PM
As it should be. If you are in a high threat job, why not spend a few thousand dollars (like taking a loan out for a vehicle for your business, tax deductable!) making yourself move faster. Wires are so cheap in SR4, every cop and corpsec should have them. And all gangers expecting to ever get in a fight should have a dose or two of cram handy. This is the 6th world, everyone is operating at a different level.
Good call Brainpiercer, you play NPCs the way they should be.
I dont agree on the 4 passes being almost a requirement though. As lethal as the SR4 rules are, I rarely see fights even go to the 4th pass, rendering that 4th pass useless. Also, if they make it to round 2, they are probably not making it to the 4th pass of round 2, so you are paying alot for 1 extra attack out of 5 or 6 attacks... not especially worth it for cyber chacters (though terribly easy for Physads to do, so they always should. Especially if they follow the Warriors Way).
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 10 2011, 08:54 PM
If your combats are ending by the third pass of thr first round one of the sides of the combat is doing something REALLY, REALLY wrong.
Most of the fights in my group take 3 to 6 rounds depending on the opposition. Unless it is against a small group and we ambush them, otherwise fights will take more than one turn to be resolved.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 10 2011, 10:16 PM
Most of the fights in my group take 3 to 6 rounds depending on the opposition. Unless it is against a small group and we ambush them, otherwise fights will take more than one turn to be resolved.
I'd really love to agree, but... mostly IF that happens, then players are bored. The last run had a fairly big final fight, and it went to IP4 of Round 2, and by that time we had spent two evenings on it.
It's funny but players are very harsh judges, and they don't take it well when things happen that don't interest them much. And there I am and I've designed a really elaborate BIG fight, and... after the two big enemies are down, they are just not interested. That's sad, but I've accepted that lesson, and cut down on fights for the next run.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 10 2011, 10:44 PM
Many of the groups I've been in, if a fight is reaching the 3rd or 4th turn that probably means entire buildings are being leveled and the military is on it's way.
-k
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 10 2011, 10:57 PM
That's the nice thing about playing a gang level campaign . .
NOBODY bloody cares about who is killing whom where in the barrens . .
Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 11:14 PM
NOBODY bloody cares about who is killing whom where in the barrens . .
Thems good ratings!
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 11 2011, 12:04 AM
Yes, well, and the inhabitants, so we usually try to limit the fallings of buildings to those of people we want squished underneath . . try being operative word here . .
You hit one little gas main and have some of the burning debris crashing into a gas station and you are called the humanoid typhoon for the rest of your life ._.
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 11 2011, 01:00 AM
The third or fourth turn is about 12 to 15 seconds. Even if someone is thinking about calling the military, it's not like they have General McGeneral on speed dialing and said General has a regiment ready to deploy just by giving a call.
And by ready to deploy I mean, everybody is already suited up, inside the vehicle just waiting for a call. Even then, just the time to call the General and the General issue the orders would take at least one minute.
That's the problem of playing combat in rpg, it took half an hour to finish it, but in game it was just 30 seconds and people lose the track of time.
Last combat I had, it took 5 minutes in game. It's alright that at least 4 minutes of the combat was just people on both sides pinned down taking pot shots while one of the members of the group was cutting through a wall and the security forces were securing the perimeter and waiting for backup.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 04:56 AM
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 11 2011, 08:48 AM
Nah, as i said, nobody but the inhabitants cares about what happens in the barrens . .
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 11 2011, 12:41 PM
But to do that, you have to actually leave combat rounds behind for a bit, which is sort of a disappointment - SR combat can't (and never could) depict drawn out fights.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: A combat round should be 30 seconds long. At least. Perhaps it might be necessary to keep the short rounds for special sequences, akin to bullet time or the like.
Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 11 2011, 02:43 PM
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: A combat round should be 30 seconds long. At least. Perhaps it might be necessary to keep the short rounds for special sequences, akin to bullet time or the like.
With enhanced aiming abilities and enhanced speed, fights would be alot quicker than modern fights. I imagine fights like the gunfights in the matrix. Imagine the lobby scene... it lasted about 3 minutes in the movie, but was slow mo... so was probably closer to 12 seconds in real time. Two runners fighting a large HRT team would take maybe 4 rounds at the most to dispatch them
(or be dispatched by them), so its spot on.
I think in modern police gunfights, people on both sides:
1. Dont have smartlinks, so miss alot.
2. Dont have 14+ points of ballistic armor, so they take alot of cover
3. Sacrifice accuracy for cover
4. Dont have enhanced reflexes that make them 4x faster
A 40 second gunfight in modern times would be at most 9 or 10 seconds in SR, considering the above factors.
If you want to draw gunfights out, play characters without 4 init passes, who fight low powered opponents without 4 init passes. Then take prodigious amounts of cover and never spend edge on a shooting test. I think you will have fights that are more comparable to real ones.
But whats the fun of that!? Its the sixth world, lets get crazy on Cram, form fitting body armor and Breakdance gunFu moves!
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 03:01 PM
Well..... Maybe not the Breakdance Gun-Fu Moves... I mean really, Breakdancing?
Posted by: Dreadlord Aug 11 2011, 08:36 PM
How demoralizing would it be to be shot by a guy doing the Electric Boogaloo?
Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 11 2011, 08:48 PM
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 09:10 PM
Heh... Okay, You are now the proud owner of an internet cookie...
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 11 2011, 09:33 PM
(or be dispatched by them), so its spot on.
I think in modern police gunfights, people on both sides:
1. Dont have smartlinks, so miss alot.
2. Dont have 14+ points of ballistic armor, so they take alot of cover
3. Sacrifice accuracy for cover
4. Dont have enhanced reflexes that make them 4x faster
A 40 second gunfight in modern times would be at most 9 or 10 seconds in SR, considering the above factors.
True enough - which is why I just want arbitrarily increase the time these fights take. Not because it makes sense, but for dramatic reasons.
And for the record, a real 40 second gunfight that is actually over in 40 seconds is a really brutal affair. Real "normal" gunfights last several minutes, if not hours, because, as you pointed out correctly, people don't tend to take quite as many risks as shadowrunners.
But whats the fun of that!? Its the sixth world, lets get crazy on Cram, form fitting body armor and Breakdance gunFu moves!
Adding tedium isn't the way to prove that the current way is better.
What I think should be done is this, and I've posted it before, too:
Increase a combat round to 30 seconds.
Divide by IPs as usually.
Increase scale of combat actions while decreasing accuracy - you don't fire one shot when you declare the Shoot-at-someone action, you actually fire several, but you still only roll once. You might simply just add one die per individual attack (shot or burst), or more generously, per round fired. In special occasions, you might still only shoot once, so you just take more time to aim, and get a few dice for aiming. Maybe there can be up- and downsides to both, ideally represented by a simple mechanic.
Increase time necessary for magic so that you still only cast once per complex action.
Non-combat actions still take the same absolute time they used to take - so that you can actually do a lot MORE non-combat actions while being shot at. For instance, you might now actually pick a lock while under fire. The entire point is to skew the system in favour of non-combat actions - movement, complex manipulations, even talking and actually communicating a strategy instead of doing that out of character. You can still kill the same number of people in the same number of rounds - or more, in fact - but while the gunbunnies are shooting, other characters can do some relevant non-combat stuff. Perhaps come up with interesting use of the environment, which they would never manage in a normal SR fight.
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 11 2011, 10:09 PM
You mean your mages don't multi-overcast stunbolt by default?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 10:47 PM
Not sure what THEY are thinking....
Posted by: Irion Aug 11 2011, 10:59 PM
Due to the fact that shadowrun is turn based it comes down to:
You shoot me in the face, I shoot you in the face and repeat.
If you do this in the real world, the fight would be over after a few moments with no survivers (if automated weapons were deployed).
(The ricochet alone would take care of that)
As a matte of fact, you may do the "Staying in cover" and "line of sight stuff" in Shadowrun too.
But you would need very good plans of the environment, so you are able to determin where your character is looking at any given moment.
One easy way to do that is streatching the combat rounds. So the test on firearms does not only mean shooting someone but everything to get a good shot at somebody.
But you would need a hole new set of rules...
Only changing the duration does not sound right. You end up with a runner beeing only able to fire his gun twice in half a minute....
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 11:05 PM
The whole point of being wired up is to act so fast that the opposition has no time to react. Kind of defeats the purpose if you stretch the combat rounds to 30 seconds... Along with being a bit unrealistic (yeah, I know), since reaction times are already so low in the real world. What the OP seems to be looking for is less effective combats that tend to take longer. Changing the duration of the Combat rounds only benefits non-combat actions, WHICH SHOULD TAKE MUCH LONGER than those combat actions in the first place. I see no real need for that, honestly.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 09:14 AM
That's true. I agree that you would need a totally new mechanic for initiative/IP boosters, to retain their awesomeness.
But seriously, even games without wired combatants usually have combat rounds which are just WAY too short. I mean, why does a medieval fantasy game need 3 second combat rounds, or a high fantasy game 6 second rounds? Seriously? But that's off topic, so...
From personal experience, though, I'll tell you an anecdote which backs up my view:
Posted by: Irion Aug 12 2011, 10:13 AM
Because you limit the everything on very simple actions!
One shot, one attack, one parade etc.
If you had lets say 30 sec combat turns, you would need to describe in one action how your character acted. Is he just spraying bullets in the direction of the enemey?
Is he waiting for them to reload to get a shot etc.
Etc.
@Brainpiercing7.62mm
Sorry, but thats just plain wrong. Fewer oppponents/fewer people shooting is always easyer to handle. The problem is, that most GM have a problem building them up, because the tend to make them to weak or to though. Of course it is much easyer to just send another wave.
But yes of course those fights will be over quite quick. Thats the system working. It is supposed to resolve a situation in few rolls.
If you want them to last longer, the players and the GM have to act acordingly. TAKE FREAKING COVER. Skip a turn in cover. Etc. etc.
I mean what should happen if two guy stand in front of each other and start shooting?
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 12:24 PM
One shot, one attack, one parade etc.
If you had lets say 30 sec combat turns, you would need to describe in one action how your character acted. Is he just spraying bullets in the direction of the enemey?
Is he waiting for them to reload to get a shot etc.
Etc.
Which is perfectly feasable. And I already said you can do more combat actions in a longer turn, just with only one or at least few effects, and generally one roll.
Sorry, but thats just plain wrong. Fewer oppponents/fewer people shooting is always easyer to handle. The problem is, that most GM have a problem building them up, because the tend to make them to weak or to though. Of course it is much easyer to just send another wave.
But yes of course those fights will be over quite quick. Thats the system working. It is supposed to resolve a situation in few rolls.
If you want them to last longer, the players and the GM have to act acordingly. TAKE FREAKING COVER. Skip a turn in cover. Etc. etc.
I mean what should happen if two guy stand in front of each other and start shooting?
I've had it so often that GMs build that ONE super-badguy, and they put a lot of effort into it, and then the players knock him out in one turn (or die). And then they come crying for house-rules, because even piss weak characters can nova in fights like that, and suddenly a GM wants to nerf the Warmage. Well, duh.
It's easier to handle, but that's about it. It's not dramatic, it's not fun (both for players or the GM, because there is no diverse tactical challenge, no necessity for various ability usage, etc.), it's just 4-5 guys beating down one guy very quickly, OR that one guy being untouchable. And GMs around me just keep making that mistake. And that's what I mean by "handling such fights poorly". They don't work in D&D, they don't work in SR, nor in any other system I know. Admittedly SR4 is better at this than SR3, because the damage system is less binary. However, you are already forced to make that one big guy either a mage or a vehicle, drone, or spirit. And the lattermost two suffer from the binary issue again: If you get through their immunities, then you have already done so much damage that they can't resist it anymore. An F7 spirit can resist whopping 14P attacks, but almost instantly dies from a 15P attack, because it can only soak 4-5P on average. (Or I might be wrong, and it has 21 dice to soak, but even so...)
A body 4 drone can resist 12P attacks, but is then probably heavily damaged by the 13P attack, because it can soak 5-6P on average.
So you go bigger, and the F8 spirit or the 16 body/16 armour light tank wipes the floor with the PCs. Well... duh.
The problems are always the same:
Balancing
Drama
Speed of resolution (as in, mostly too quickly)
Lack of tactical challenge (Is it my turn? Uh... I shoot the guy. Next.)
Most of these CAN be avoided, I admit I've used some gross over-simplifications, but that requires a lot of insight and possibly preparation - and even that is no guarantee.
As to voluntarily drawing out the fight? Well... you can do that, but that quite often doesn't improve things. In game terms, you need a reason to take cover, because for mechanical reasons it's probably much smarter to knock the enemy out quicker. So, for instance, you might take cover to select a different weapon, change your ammunition, or get a piece of equipment from a container, but during that time, mostly the others are still fighting, and making sure that your use of time might end up inefficient. Unless it's absolutely critical that you have that time of cover, you just wasted it. In reality, not getting killed is a pretty good reason to take cover. In a game, if it's already that binary, then hiding for a bit won't save you, because you haven't done anything to improve your tactical situation.
I firmly believe that for an interesting fight you need several different opponents, who make use of the environment to create an interesting tactical challenge, while not creating huge balance issues. And fights like this just take LONG. And during that time, the 1IP character (who was duly informed before he made his char) sits around for 30 minutes every turn while the others take their actions. And even though he said he was fine with that, he then went and did stupid things because he was bored.
And that's the real issue: You can't make a MEMORABLE boss fight without being either REALLY good at doing that, or making it a long drawn out affair.
But big fights have their own problems, mainly resulting from the tedium of slogging it out with multiple, individually insignifcant opponents. And the middle ground is very narrow - basically few, but indivdually fairly powerful opponents. And you are now stuck in a bad game world.
But with rules that gave these 1IP or otherwise non-combat characters stuff to do while the others fight, things might be better. That's my whole idea.
Posted by: Irion Aug 12 2011, 01:00 PM
Ah, I think I understand what it is about now.
The thing is, fight against one single opponent in a game where offance is superior to defance are over quite fast.
There is no way around it.
So yes, if you are looking for a fight lasting according to the rules you need several bad guys. Simply because one side will need to take losses. (Since offence is superior.)
To get the fight team against evil overloard, you need to stay out of combat time and resolve it by dice assisted narration.
Posted by: Glyph Aug 13 2011, 09:17 AM
I don't really consider that a weakness of the system. If you want end-of-level boss fights, play a video game. One single opponent usually should get pulverized if he takes on an entire crew of runners by himself.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 13 2011, 01:41 PM
That's not it, I want manageable memorable fights that don't take forever. Which is something the system doesn't excel at.
Posted by: Irion Aug 13 2011, 01:43 PM
@Brainpiercing7.62mm
Those take a lot of skill on part of the GM in any kind of game, because you need to predict what your players are going to do, you need to scale the opposition according to the players and make them hit near death without killing them. That is kind of a stun to pull, if you are not cheating. (Adjusting rolls or values while playing)
Posted by: Glyph Aug 13 2011, 06:08 PM
The problem is, the game tends to create what Dumpshock calls "glass cannons", so combat tends to be quick, lethal, and, if the players are smart enough, very tactically-oriented.
That's another thing about challenge levels - the game expects, and rewards, lateral thinking. In D&D, you kill the guard beast, because that's how you get experience points. In Shadowrun, finding another, less-used entrance that lets you bypass the guard beast altogether is just as good, or better.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 13 2011, 06:18 PM
Those take a lot of skill on part of the GM in any kind of game, because you need to predict what your players are going to do, you need to scale the opposition according to the players and make them hit near death without killing them. That is kind of a stun to pull, if you are not cheating. (Adjusting rolls or values while playing)
One would think that it should be possible to use some probabilities...
And then, predicting ability use isn't appropriate, you shouldn't have to think about HOW your players will win, just take into account abilities they have and specifically taylor the numbers.
However, with few bad guys, this is hard to balance, and with many bad guys it will take forever. (And it can also end up with bad guys who are overall too weak, because the strength in numbers card only really happens at about 4:1, with 1 or 2 IP enemies.)
In the last big fight with my group, I put them up against a prime runner team which I decided I wouldn't play quite to their fullest, and a corporate double-cross including one big meanie, the J's bodyguard, and several grunts. Actually it was a three-way, because the corpsec guys were going to always target the winning side.
However, I had underestimated our tech guys's explosives capabilities (detonating a detpack with detcord and a taser for pinpoint and instant targetting), and hence, he basically blew up the other runners in one blast. And the rest was just magicrun, becasue now our mage had no magical opposition left. And while the fight took two whole evenings (about 3 hours each), it wasn't nearly as memorable (from my perspective) as I had hoped - I only managed to seriously injure one of the PCs. I think the players still liked it, but it just overall took too long.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 06:34 PM
And then, predicting ability use isn't appropriate, you shouldn't have to think about HOW your players will win, just take into account abilities they have and specifically taylor the numbers.
However, with few bad guys, this is hard to balance, and with many bad guys it will take forever. (And it can also end up with bad guys who are overall too weak, because the strength in numbers card only really happens at about 4:1, with 1 or 2 IP enemies.)
In the last big fight with my group, I put them up against a prime runner team which I decided I wouldn't play quite to their fullest, and a corporate double-cross including one big meanie, the J's bodyguard, and several grunts. Actually it was a three-way, because the corpsec guys were going to always target the winning side.
However, I had underestimated our tech guys's explosives capabilities (detonating a detpack with detcord and a taser for pinpoint and instant targetting), and hence, he basically blew up the other runners in one blast. And the rest was just magicrun, becasue now our mage had no magical opposition left. And while the fight took two whole evenings (about 3 hours each), it wasn't nearly as memorable (from my perspective) as I had hoped - I only managed to seriously injure one of the PCs. I think the players still liked it, but it just overall took too long.
Why are your combats between 12-18(? You mentioned three teams.) People taking 6 hours to complete? For a single encounter? Seems pretty excessive to me.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 14 2011, 12:18 AM
Individually every one of us could have saved some time for each IP. Well...
The first evening had some preparations, initial considerations, tactics, etc., and the second evening actually finished off rather early, but still. YES, excessive, but it should be possible to do stuff like that.
Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 08:50 AM
I've found that some force 2-4 possession/inhabitation spirits (bugs, shedim, etc.) backed by a single force 4-7 makes for an interesting "boss fight" Especially since you can tailor the tankiness of the opposition by saying that some of them were posessed corpsec and have armor, or every third one is an orc or a troll.
You can also "cheat" pretty easily to tailor the situation for maximum drama by adjusting the force or the equipment of individual targets (only before they're engaged by the pcs!) based on PC performance vs. the previous targets.
I found that the stacking of armor (even generic armored clothing) and low-moderate ItNW let me get away with using far fewer opponents than I normally would, without going all glass-cannon on the PC's.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 14 2011, 09:31 AM
You can also "cheat" pretty easily to tailor the situation for maximum drama by adjusting the force or the equipment of individual targets (only before they're engaged by the pcs!) based on PC performance vs. the previous targets.
I found that the stacking of armor (even generic armored clothing) and low-moderate ItNW let me get away with using far fewer opponents than I normally would, without going all glass-cannon on the PC's.
But ovbviously there has to be a point to this. You can't just get insect spirits out of nowhere for every campaign. I would agree that generally it's better to improve defenses rather than putting a glass cannon on the field. And what you are mentioning is already 8 bad guys, which is pretty much the scale we were on.
Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 09:45 AM
On the contrary, I did it with 3 (4 really, but the first one got blown away first action, after which I adjusted.) I apologize for being clear. Some spirits of force 2-4 (in this case three of them, two of which were actually in the fight), and one "boss".
I realize that it isn't a perfect fit, and is certainly unsuitable for many campaigns. I just wanted to give a counterexample to show that you can do a solid boss fight with only a few opponents. Honestly, the fight would have gone fairly similarly had the boss been alone. Harder to scale for drama, but nearly as drawn out and deadly.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 02:42 PM
The first evening had some preparations, initial considerations, tactics, etc., and the second evening actually finished off rather early, but still. YES, excessive, but it should be possible to do stuff like that.
It is possible. We have run through 6-12 opponents (our team is 5-6 regular characters, so 10 to 18 combatants on scene) in less than an hour or so, dependant upon who and what was going on. A lot of it is on the players, though. If the players/GM are completely unused to the system, or have yet to gain competence/mastery with the combat rules, then things can bog down considerably.
Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 14 2011, 07:49 PM
In all fairness, most shadowrun gunfights happen in serious CQB range...which is usually about as lethal as it sounds. Guys shooting assault rifles down a barren alley standing 5-30m from each other are going to die in a hurry. As are people shooting across a room.
If it seems like fights are to clinically precise, go with the time honored tribute to reality: don't put a marker on the map so to speak, just say "there's bullets coming from that building yonder. Yes, you absolutely can try to identify the source more precisely...but you went full defense, so not this IP. I feel I should inform you that said building is 100m away, has a lot of potential firing points, and you are standing in the open. No you can't tell if they are aiming at you specifically or not. No, you can't see how mnay dice they will roll before deciding on full defense- I'm just going to tell you bullets are coming in somewhat uncomfortably close at the moment...why yes, hosing the building down WILL make them make the same decision"
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 10:05 PM
Rule One: Cover is good! Find cover!
Rule Two: If you can't find cover, find concealment. If they can't see you, they can't shoot you.
Rule Two, Provision A: Some firearms don't provide any kind of cover, just concealment, find the thickest, toughest concealment you can find!
Rule Three: If you can't find concealment, be somewhere else. Fast.
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Aug 18 2011, 12:16 AM
Back to discussing move-by-wire...
What do you think happens when a security scanner identifies a runner's 'ware as deltaware move-by-wire 3 with an expert system?
Say a security mage has a uses a spell to take over the runner's body, has him march into a holding area, strip off all his clothes and stuff, then step into a nice, secure stockade. Then he releases him and explains that having move by wire is illegal and it is now going to be surgically removed at his expense...
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 12:26 AM
He whips out this Fake Bounty Hunter's License and Fake Quebec SIN and says, "I have it, how you say, legal? Oui. Legal."
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Aug 18 2011, 12:42 AM
What fake licence? He's nekkid!
If they have the tech to detect a specific cyberware piece then they have the tech to defeat your fake i.d.... or the magic to read your mind...
Move by wire is forbidden, not restricted. They tend to get uptight when they notice stuff like that and may not follow the rules. Or the GM is evil. >:)
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 18 2011, 12:46 AM
Laws and regulations on specific items vary from country to country.
In Soviet Russia, Wire Moves You!
Posted by: suoq Aug 18 2011, 01:13 AM
Just for clarification. I know were talking about MBW3 and yes, MBW3 is F. MBW 1 & 2 are just R. This isn't a disagreement, it's just clarification.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 01:15 AM
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 18 2011, 01:49 AM
My favorite interpretation of the Restricted Versus Forbidden debate is that Forbidden items EXIST, therefore SOMEBODY must be able to possess them. The licenses and SINs associated with such items are more carefully scrutinized, but fakes are, by definition, obtainable.
A HMG might be enough probable cause for Lone Star to cuff you and take you downtown for a full biometric analysis, but to simply declare a GM Fiat that possessing an F-Rated item is automatically an indictable offense makes a lot of the sixth world unworkable. Otherwise, LS would be shutting down Ares assembly plants left right and center. Ares can produce F-Rated items, therefore F-Rated objects are legal for SOMEBODY to own. You just need the paperwork (or cyberwork) to say that you're one of them.
Posted by: suoq Aug 18 2011, 01:51 AM
Got curious so I went looking.
"What do you think happens when a security scanner identifies a runner's 'ware as deltaware move-by-wire 3 with an expert system?"
Looking at pg 262 of SR4A, that is one incredible scanner. It has a threshold of 5+ just to find the deltaware and it needs even more hits to determine the grade. A license for MBW 2 strikes me as a very believable con because after a bit of work with the scanner, they might see what they were expecting to see from the license IF the scanner was good enough to even see it in the first place and the deltaware MBW 3 is even in it's database. Even if the machine sends up a delta MBW3 alert, the guard is staring at a delta MBW 2 license. I'm not sure I want to hassle the man who has enough corporate pull for delta MBW 2+ and even if it's MBW3, making decisions about a man with delta MBW 3 is probably above his pay grade.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 18 2011, 02:03 AM
Good point. There's another thread around here detailing social roles, but it's worth mentioning the intimidation factor security clearance provides.
Speaking personally, if somebody provided me with incontrovertible evidence of being a federal security agent (pick your favorite branch, it really doesn't matter), I'd hesitate to call down thunder on them. Those reverberations can shatter windows for miles, if I haven't mixed my metaphors too much.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 02:07 AM
Zaranthan, they're legal for militaries (and equivalents). It's like driving down the street in a tank with full armament: yes, people recognize it as a real thing that exists… and as something that *you* can't possibly have legally.
Posted by: Glyph Aug 18 2011, 02:13 AM
Some of the legalities make absolutely no sense. For instance, bone lacing is F, but bone density augmentation, you don't even need a permit for.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 18 2011, 02:16 AM
So, you need the paperwork proving that you're a paramilitary agent on official federal business. The paperwork isn't nonexistent, it's just really rare and hard to copy.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 02:20 AM
Definitely, Glyph. Who knows what they were thinking.
That's true. But there's a level of 'really rare' that rounds to zero. And you can still get and use F items, bearing in mind the risk. Everyone does it.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 02:34 AM
That said, one of the characters I write for got his Titanium Bone Lacing though health insurance and rabid attack lawyers that insisted that it be carried out as stringently as possible. He had a 160-year old building made of hardened brick and steel fall on him, after having a bomb go off and erase his face.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 02:36 AM
The cannon is kind of the point, though. 
I feel like any civilian reason for Density applies to Lacing. There's just no reason for those wonky ratings. 
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 02:38 AM
There's also strange laws that don't make any sense in real life as well.
For instance, it's harder to get a license to sell Airsoft in Canada than it is to sell firearms. And the license to sell Airsoft also allows the store in question to store weapons-grade nuclear material.
EDIT: I know this because my FLGS/Army Surplus Store (Now with Nepalese Kukris) also sells Airsoft, and it took years to get the license for it.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 18 2011, 02:41 AM
Well, schneikes. That pretty much justifies my street sam's panther cannon whole-cloth, now <HuckFinn>das'n it?</HuckFinn>
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 02:49 AM
Stupid laws abound IRL, so why not in Shadowrun?
"Bioware is green, while Bone Lacing is a Industrial Process, and thus should be regulated harder."
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 03:12 AM
I agree that it's realistically stupid, but that's no comfort. We expect out fantasy world to be a little better, even in a dystopia.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 18 2011, 03:24 AM
We expect out fantasy world to be a little better, even in a dystopia.I recently started playing a character whose highest Knowledge Skill was Augmentation Legislation. I expect our futuristic dystopia to be sufficiently wacky to allow my character to game the system!
Posted by: CanRay Aug 18 2011, 03:39 AM
We expect out fantasy world to be a little better, even in a dystopia.I can't help but feel that humanity will continue to be anything but illogical about laws, even if they're "More than human" in more ways than one.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 04:31 AM
Right, but I said 'fantasy' world. That is, we're playing a game. We generally expect the game rules to not be realistically, desperation-inducing-ly insane (certain games notwithstanding, heh).
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 18 2011, 04:45 AM
We expect out fantasy world to be a little better, even in a dystopia.It IS a little better. We finally got over such silly divisions as what color your skin is and what country you were born in (unless you're Yakuza, in which case it's the other way around). Now we get to hate each other based on REAL differences like how much armor you can wear without shooting askew and whether or not you're a freaking vampire.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 18 2011, 09:31 AM
Fixed that for you
.
Posted by: svenftw Aug 18 2011, 08:55 PM
Does it say this somewhere in the book? The rules imply that implants that aren't passive can generally be turned on and off via DNI, why would this not be true with MBW? Why can't it have a bypass mode?
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 18 2011, 09:00 PM
I couldn't quote the book, sadly, but from the description, MBW is basically a complete overhaul to your nervous system. Turning that off would be tricky.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 18 2011, 09:03 PM
turning it off would basically make you a cripple.
you lose all control of anything below your neck.
now, disguising it as a set of SKILLWIRES . . . . .
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 19 2011, 02:01 PM
MBW isn't your typical cyberware. As well as the standard chunks of metal to do cool stuff and immunosuppressant treatment so your body doesn't try to eat the chunks of metal, the installation "puts the user’s body in a constant state of seizure, so that it wishes to move in all directions simultaneously. An implanted expert system monitors the seizure and counteracts its effects until the user wishes to act." (Aug, p40) If you turn off the MBW, you go into a seizure, and likely suffer severe injury from your muscles tearing each other apart.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 19 2011, 02:07 PM
However, just as MBW in SR4A doesn't cause any health issues at all, there's also no rule that you can't turn it off/dial it down to 'normal'. This is all just past-edition fluff-interference. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
Posted by: Zoot Aug 25 2011, 12:51 PM
Rule Four: If you can't find concealment, stand behind one of your 'freinds'.
Posted by: Zoot Aug 25 2011, 01:00 PM
A HMG might be enough probable cause for Lone Star to cuff you and take you downtown for a full biometric analysis, but to simply declare a GM Fiat that possessing an F-Rated item is automatically an indictable offense makes a lot of the sixth world unworkable. Otherwise, LS would be shutting down Ares assembly plants left right and center. Ares can produce F-Rated items, therefore F-Rated objects are legal for SOMEBODY to own. You just need the paperwork (or cyberwork) to say that you're one of them.
The law is defined by the governement, Forbidden items are Forbidden in places covered by National law. In corp enclaves, they make the rules. A corp employee can have any tech the corp feels is necessary as long as they stay on corp property. if they get caught by the law outside, the corp lawyers may simply end up bailing the offender and relocating him to another nation.
Your runner guy who doesn't actually have this corporate backing, is pretty much hosed if he gets caught by the cops, unless he fights his way out of the police station and gets himself on the UCAS most wanted list. Basically, if you want F rated gear, you better take precautions not to get caught...
If he gets caught on corp territory, well...
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