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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ So Lofwyr has 35 body, lets do this!
Posted by: Gerzel Aug 3 2011, 09:53 PM
Ok.
800 bp team of six runners vs Old Gold Snout.
What kindo build would you go with?
Would they stand a chance under a fair GM?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 3 2011, 10:16 PM
I'd go with the largest Body Troll you could possibly muster. Even if he doesn't choke on him, the high fat content will do a number on the Great Dragon's arteries.
To prepare for combat, I'd have him smothered in Real Cheese and Boiling Hot Brown Gravy.
Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 3 2011, 10:21 PM
A dragon (especially a great dragon ... or the GREATEST dragon *g*) isn't just a reaction value, damage value, and body dice.
Say Lofwyr isn't that prepared to kick ass (Wait, what?), he would still be a over 10.000 year old (active) magician. Massive anchored spells are likely: Armor spells, Detect life, Detect Enemy, Combat sense. He has likely ten or more bound spirits, at least at "terribad" ratings. He has spirit pacts, closed deals with unearthly powers protecting, healing him and helping with drain.
He has got his own fatechanging powers.
I would say: Without any kind of insane weaponry (orbital crap and naval lasers), you can do it in two ways: A prepared bomb, but you need to know where he will be, or get him there somehow, OR massive first strike attack with heavy weapons on drones or something. Too bad that both of these will be detected when he divines the future in the morning (or gets warned by the spirit-world).
Ah, maybe a dragon-killing engineered disease?
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 3 2011, 10:33 PM
You need two characters:
opne hacker that can successfully without detection find out where the dragon will be at what time.
and another highly connected character that can get a thor-shot at that point at that time. dragon paste.
Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 3 2011, 10:53 PM
opne hacker that can successfully without detection find out where the dragon will be at what time.
and another highly connected character that can get a thor-shot at that point at that time. dragon paste.
"Yo, Lofwyr."
"Yeah, spirit of tomorrow?"
"I forsee GRAVE danger when you will leave to inspect the sorrow-factory. Something with metal from the sky and destruction of all life around you"
"Ah, let my mighty brain (and spec-ops, and spies) do its work: WAIT, someone wants to shoot me... with a Thor shot? Time to proactively ruin some lives, i guess"
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 3 2011, 11:06 PM
How's about the good old Technomancer/Face, to shake the wyrm's hand in a corporate meeting, pull him into VR and Psychotropic, Cascading Black Hammer him?
For a truly dragonkill almost as cheesy as CanRay's troll.
Stahl: that leaves him plenty Edge to say "die? Me? Naw." 
Posted by: PoliteMan Aug 3 2011, 11:07 PM
I predict this will dissolve very quickly into a "Schrodinger Divination" GD debate.
At 800 BP, hackers and Technomancers will be able to gather all the info you want and have the best chance of hacking orbital/nuclear weapons. If you want to actually shoot a GD to death, you have to use some obscene weapons like MERSI grenades (AFB, but from WAR!)
Edit: Or, if you give them some Karma, high level AIs are basically invincible. They can do it and there's not much even Lofwyr can do to stop them.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 3 2011, 11:25 PM
To prepare for combat, I'd have him smothered in Real Cheese and Boiling Hot Brown Gravy.
I thought you focused on the other type of Troll Lust, CanRay.
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 3 2011, 11:28 PM
Gravy doubles up as lube without a hitch.
For those who like to dip, before they nip.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 3 2011, 11:31 PM
EVERY Thor shot and EVERY orbital laser and EVERY thaumaturgid nuke you can throw at him. Then you start with the viral stuff. Weaponised HMHVV, MADS, FAB III, while Ares uses their captured insect spirits to try and possess him. That's just off the top of my head.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 3 2011, 11:35 PM
For those who like to dip, before they nip.
Look up this thing called "Poutine" and you'll get the joke.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 3 2011, 11:38 PM
So Lofwyr's made of potato?
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 3 2011, 11:38 PM
Look up this thing called "Poutine" and you'll get the joke.
I got the joke, and it made me hungry. "Hunger" is similar to "Lust." Thus, MY joke.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 3 2011, 11:49 PM
...
Maybe find an Irish Troll, just to make sure. Or one from PEI or Idaho.
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 3 2011, 11:50 PM
Look up this thing called "Poutine" and you'll get the joke.
It seems that this last decade, poutine has been to me what playing an actual game of Shadowrun had been to you.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 3 2011, 11:54 PM
French Fries (Home style, not the mass produced crap), Cheese Curd (Fresh is best, but frozen does in a pinch), and Brown Gravy (With bits of beef still in it, to give some extra texture and taste.). It's a lot easier to get than RPGers interested in Shadowrun.
One comedian's theory behind Quebec being so problematic is that, due to this dish, they haven't had a bowel movement since Confederation/Confédération.
Posted by: Neko Asakami Aug 4 2011, 12:15 AM
That would explain why they're so full of shit.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 4 2011, 12:34 AM
"Yeah, spirit of tomorrow?"
"I forsee GRAVE danger when you will leave to inspect the sorrow-factory. Something with metal from the sky and destruction of all life around you"
"Ah, let my mighty brain (and spec-ops, and spies) do its work: WAIT, someone wants to shoot me... with a Thor shot? Time to proactively ruin some lives, i guess"
And he has reason to do this why?
For a truly dragonkill almost as cheesy as CanRay's troll.
Stahl: that leaves him plenty Edge to say "die? Me? Naw."
I thought Edge only when you are not surprised?
Also, by that reasoning, give me a human with 8 edge and a Gauss-Rifle.
Burn Edge for critical success.
Bam, dead dragon because of AP/2 -5 and then 4 net hits meaning whatever he has to not take damage, i have 4 more . .
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 4 2011, 12:49 AM
I thought Edge only when you are not surprised?
Also, by that reasoning, give me a human with 8 edge and a Gauss-Rifle.
Burn Edge for critical success.
Bam, dead dragon because of AP/2 -5 and then 4 net hits meaning whatever he has to not take damage, i have 4 more . .
At which the dragon does the same on his soak roll.
When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object...
Also: exactly. Why would old Goldy bother with spirits to tell him the future, when he's had ample time to pick up the Divining metamagic and use it at every occasion?
Then, having a great form Guidance spirit ally always comes in handy. Plus dragons need their lackeys.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 4 2011, 01:29 AM
To prepare for combat, I'd have him smothered in Real Cheese and Boiling Hot Brown Gravy.
+1 Rep
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 4 2011, 01:32 AM
To prepare for combat, I'd have him smothered in Real Cheese and Boiling Hot Brown Gravy.
+1 Rep
I thought Edge only when you are not surprised?
Also, by that reasoning, give me a human with 8 edge and a Gauss-Rifle.
Burn Edge for critical success.
Bam, dead dragon because of AP/2 -5 and then 4 net hits meaning whatever he has to not take damage, i have 4 more . .
Burn edge: oops, I'm not dead.
Posted by: Faraday Aug 4 2011, 02:20 AM
Set off a Ragnarok-style world event, get things stirred up like hell to confuse divination as much as possible. When you get the chance, generate a mana void in Lofwyr's location and hit the local area with 20 THOR shots. Should do the trick.
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 4 2011, 02:26 AM
First, wait until Lofwyr has published stats. Then just kill him in some boringly mundane way, because dragons are statted out as just a slightly above-average jet fighter and a pretty good mage, despite all the fluff about them being able to destroy cities and all that jazz. Until then, Schroedinger's Dragon could theoretically have any defense against any strategy.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 4 2011, 02:29 AM
I've seen Lofwyr's stats. Have fun with that....
Posted by: Saint Hallow Aug 4 2011, 02:42 AM
Really? Are we discussing killing named NPC's in the SR world? I'm half expecting dark-skinned elf with twin swords to show up now...
Or someone could just bring in the "Those who will not be named" from Earthdawn.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 4 2011, 02:54 AM
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/9p22/
Posted by: Glyph Aug 4 2011, 02:56 AM
On the one hand, this give more fuel to the "If you give it stats, the players will kill it, just for the Lulz" crowd.
But on the other hand, I always thought immortal elves and great dragons were too damn overpowered for the Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun should NOT HAVE "named NPCs" in the sense of ludicrously powerful no-selling godlike beings. Beings like Lofwyr and Ehran the scribe should survive by their cunning, their planning, their connections, and their multiple levels of security. Meeting a spec ops team or a group of prime runners should be something they want to avoid - not something they can laugh off with contrived super-powers and inflated dice pools.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be tough - a normal dragon should be able to go toe to toe with a prime runner and win most of the time. A great dragon should be able to take on a whole team. But they should still be sweating a bit. And I think there has been too much wanking going on in the fluff, with great dragons surviving thor shots, invading modern cities, and crap like that. Hopefully the published stats will be more reasonable. I would rather have a munchkin bragging "I killed Lofwyr!", than have a set of great dragon stats that don't fit the scale of the overall game world.
Posted by: pbangarth Aug 4 2011, 03:51 AM
I concur. And a being with 13 CHA, INT and LOG that has survived for thousands of years will have planned, connected and secured so many ways that one team of 800 BP characters should have no chance at all to penetrate to their target.
Posted by: toturi Aug 4 2011, 04:00 AM
But the problem with planning, connecting and securing so many ways is that in doing so also could make just as many other ways that one team of high BP characters have a good chance to penetrate and eliminate their target.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:13 AM
There is one major rule that happens against the "If it's stated, we can kill it" rule when it comes to the major leagues:
"If you killed him, it wasn't really him."
Posted by: toturi Aug 4 2011, 04:30 AM
It wasn't really him, unless it really was him.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:32 AM
In which case, you only thought you killed him, and just pissed him off.
A lot.
And every Mr. Johnson you seem to meet keeps sending you to Ketchup factories for weird reasons... And you can get no other jobs. At all.
Posted by: toturi Aug 4 2011, 04:35 AM
Oh no, you did not only think you killed him. You really did kill him. Permanently and absolutely. No buts, no howevers, no way outs. He is dead.
Only way he isn't is he came back from being dead. Maybe not even then.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 4 2011, 04:37 AM
If nothing else, a really serious attempt to kill him will get him to display the Dragon Power Armor he'd been developing.
-k
Posted by: PoliteMan Aug 4 2011, 04:38 AM
Haven't there enough Doombots already?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:51 AM
Posted by: suoq Aug 4 2011, 05:15 AM
One dryad with Glamour should do it. Why attack Lofwyr when he'll give you everything you want out of "awe, deference, and kindness"?
Posted by: toturi Aug 4 2011, 05:23 AM
True. Everything can be achieved because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJbAT1wzS8U.
Posted by: Medicineman Aug 4 2011, 06:53 AM
....oO(if it's got Stats it can be killed)
You just create that Dryad Pornomancer with 40 Dice in Con/Leadership and convince all Presidents of important Naitions (Cas,UCAS,NAN,Japan,etc) that Lofwyr is a Danger to Humanity than watch their Armies fight Saeder Krupp
well ,but then its in the Hands of the Gamemaster and not a Matter of....(Do You say "Prick comparision" in America ?) the competition between PC and NPC
with a thoughtfull Dance
Medicineman
Posted by: Blade Aug 4 2011, 09:08 AM
The thing is that you can't correctly play a character with more than 6 in LOG and INT.
Posted by: Medicineman Aug 4 2011, 09:14 AM
But since nobody else can either Nobody'll know for sure if its played correctly
with a correct Dance
Medicineman
Posted by: The Jopp Aug 4 2011, 09:15 AM
Get someone with "Astral Hazing" within (Essence) range. Now the following happens:
1: His magic rating drops by 4
2: All magic actions are at a -4D6 (including counterspelling)
3: All drain is at a +4 = (F/2)+X +4
Etc...
Hit the dragon with mix of Eykyelbene (sp?) poison and DMSO from Arsenal. Each dose will have a chance to cause PERMANENT blindness.
At the same time you hit him with a F12 orgasm to incapacitate him.
Another possibility is to use a watercannon with a mix of DMSO and FAB3 bacterial solution.
Posted by: toturi Aug 4 2011, 09:28 AM
Have the guy with Astral Hazing be infected with MADS.
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 4 2011, 10:32 AM
But on the other hand, I always thought immortal elves and great dragons were too damn overpowered for the Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun should NOT HAVE "named NPCs" in the sense of ludicrously powerful no-selling godlike beings. Beings like Lofwyr and Ehran the scribe should survive by their cunning, their planning, their connections, and their multiple levels of security. Meeting a spec ops team or a group of prime runners should be something they want to avoid - not something they can laugh off with contrived super-powers and inflated dice pools.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be tough - a normal dragon should be able to go toe to toe with a prime runner and win most of the time. A great dragon should be able to take on a whole team. But they should still be sweating a bit. And I think there has been too much wanking going on in the fluff, with great dragons surviving thor shots, invading modern cities, and crap like that. Hopefully the published stats will be more reasonable. I would rather have a munchkin bragging "I killed Lofwyr!", than have a set of great dragon stats that don't fit the scale of the overall game world.
Yeah, the wanking to dragons and immortal elves is one of my least favorite parts of Shadowrun. I feel like character like Lofwyr or Ghostwalker or whatever work better as masterminds, but shit like "Dragons can totally burn down entire cities and nobody can stop them, olol" really clashes with the rest of the setting. And it doesn't help that Great Dragons have stats that are totally nowhere near powerful enough to do that, either. I'd much rather Ghostwalker took over Denver because he could use his knowledge and resources to raise and direct an effective rebellion or something like that, then flying in, being "olol, I'm unstoppable!" and taking over by the power of Plot.
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 4 2011, 12:26 PM
And moving on to the next part of our tour of Saeder-Krupp landmarks, we're moving on to our great director and dragon overlord Lofwyr, in the process of having the biggest orgasm ever. You will find raincoats and hats in the bins against the wall.
Posted by: The Jopp Aug 4 2011, 12:36 PM
Pretty much this - And if he survives, can you imagine the humiliation...
You also have the added "bonus" that the spell is sustainable, which essentially means that the victim will probably die from muscle cramps or dehydration.
Posted by: suoq Aug 4 2011, 01:25 PM
Death by Snu-snu!
Posted by: Doc Byte Aug 4 2011, 01:36 PM
800 bp team of six runners vs Old Gold Snout.
What kindo build would you go with?
Well, let's see... I'd take:
1. A former wageslave now runner dog shaman
2. A human femal hermetic mage
3. An elven decker uhm hacker, whatever
4. An Orc merc
5. A native american street sam
Then I'd provide the sam - let's call him say Ghost-who-walks-inside - with a minigun and Lofwyr begone.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 4 2011, 01:49 PM
Just so you know, there are people out there who would draw that.
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 4 2011, 01:58 PM
Fully the purview of rule 34, I fear.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 4 2011, 02:19 PM
Lofwyr/Dunkie slash fic, anyone?
Posted by: Mardrax Aug 4 2011, 02:29 PM
Draconic necrophilic homosexuality?
Why not?
Posted by: Udoshi Aug 4 2011, 02:29 PM
The only way to take down a dragon in a direct fight, and have a chance of succeeding...
its actually kind of like a MMO raid.
Twist Fate is your biggest enemy, and great dragons need to spend edge to use it.
A team of edge 7-8 humans NEEDS to force a dragon to use edge on defense tests, instead of permaboosting an ally with it(they can lend it, and get it BACK when its spent). So you need to put him in a situation where he has to spend edge on surprise, dodging, resistances, etc.
Debuffs: Exploit dual naturedness. FAB, more fab, and background count. If this means astral hazing, so be it. If it means stealing a cyberzombie, or having your mages flood the area with multiple background counts from Mana Static.
Dealing with the adds: Great dragons have incredible on-demand support. Whether its hackers, or loads of bound ally spirits and summoned spirits and regular spirits. If you manage to get a dragon into a situation where the only backup is instant backup, you're still going to need a plan to deal with it.
The rest is stun damage. Dragons have great body, and thus huge soak and resistance pools. But terrible willpower.
As for my team? I'd probably take a pair of jarheads at least, with the +object resistance mod from War.
Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 4 2011, 03:11 PM
If my Dragonheart saga memories serve me correctly...
To take out Dunkelzhan it required no less than a team of blood mages tapped into a manaline combined with a tactical nuke... which only actually opened a rift to a metaplane that sucked him in, didnt actually kill him necessarily.
Great Dragons dont die. Dont even fantasize about it. Unless of course other dragons ganged up on them...
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 4 2011, 03:12 PM
Are people forgetting that you'd not be fighting JUST a dragon, but a dragon with the resources of an entire multi-quadrillion-nuyen megacorp?
-k
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 4 2011, 03:22 PM
Actually no, it doesn't.
Closest to a great dragon being killed by human means were Lofwyrs Brother Alamais, who got hit(and nearly killed) by oribital lasers and Feuerschwinge, who got shot down over the SOX by german fighter jets with rockets/missles . . and survived . . and then some years later got NAPALM-Bombed . . and probably survived again, but nothing is sure about this as of yet . .
Adult Dragons have died more often, see Haesslich and Tessien for example.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 03:31 PM
-k
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 4 2011, 03:37 PM
Another part is chocolate. Particularly the dipping kind.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 4 2011, 03:42 PM
Mmmm. Boston elf.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 4 2011, 03:45 PM
Someone loves themselves some ork fondue, I'm thinking....
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 03:56 PM
Posted by: Aku Aug 4 2011, 04:16 PM
Thats what she said...
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 4 2011, 04:30 PM
Just send Lofwyr to Dumpshock, we'll squick him to death.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Aug 4 2011, 04:30 PM
Umm, and I wonder what Lofwyr's spell list looks like. Detect [object], Detect enemies--would work too, so he'd see you comming from over a mile away. At that point the SK strike team hits the group, takes them out.
I'm sure he's got max skill in Sorcery, conjuring, banishing, too so magic is right out. His perception, dodge and other stats are through the roof as well.
OT--Assume you have a light pistol loaded with normal ammo and shoot lofwyr after a big fight in the lair. You are uninjured and all your paty memebers are dead. You use edge on the initial roll of 12 dice to hit him. He is suprised and out of edge (FOR JUST siliness). What is the percentage chance that you will kill lofwry--assuming average soak rolls by the golden snout?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:35 PM
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:54 PM
Oh, I only have one suggestion if you get Lofwyr's attention:
http://youtu.be/6npO-NoOPOg
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 4 2011, 04:55 PM
Fixed that for you. Dumpshock isn't particularly full of squick.
This is more likely.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 05:30 PM
And then I'll be left alone, and he'll just look at me, go, "REALLY?"
And eat me to make the world a better place.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 4 2011, 05:30 PM
Then the Draconic Otherkins will fall in love with him. >.>
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 4 2011, 05:52 PM
Not to mention those Dunkelzahn/Ghostwalker groupies who made them the actual head of a draconic cult, that is also (albeit barely) a magic tradition.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 05:58 PM
Those guys scare me more than Scientology!
...
OK, slightly less, but still!
Posted by: Glyph Aug 5 2011, 02:50 AM
Exactly. Damien Knight is probably a tough old coot, but he doesn't need to be able to shrug off orbital cows to be an apex predator in the Shadowrun universe. I would rather have a moderately tough great dragon (the basic SR4 stats, boosted a bit for "named" ones) who has a security detail, than these overblown 'toons. A great dragon should be able to take on a special ops team, with the odds favoring him, but should not even be in the same league as modern military weaponry such as panzers and fighter jets.
Posted by: Saint Hallow Aug 5 2011, 03:09 AM
1. A former wageslave now runner dog shaman
2. A human femal hermetic mage
3. An elven decker uhm hacker, whatever
4. An Orc merc
5. A native american street sam
Then I'd provide the sam - let's call him say Ghost-who-walks-inside - with a minigun and Lofwyr begone.
Ghost used an autocannon, not a minigun if I recall correctly. As for our dog-boy, he had major help from a mentor spirit & was only just lucky to not get deep-fried by flame breath.
Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 5 2011, 06:34 AM
Stahl already solved this, but I guess he forgot. All you need is the ITS Gonryu, and overlapping blast radii on a full auto burst. That is a perfect solution to any problem. Even the ones that aren't problems, or require a delicate touch. 55 DV IS a delicate touch in comparison to satellite weaponry, especially when most of the damage falls off 2.5 meters from ground zero.
Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 5 2011, 06:46 AM
Seriously? You're pitting him against one of the weakest weapon classes in the game and mook level dice? With a light pistol, he can take zeros on every roll, and you can get all hits on your roll, and you won't scratch him. He has 20 Hardened armor, so 16 DV is nothing to call home about. Try using a Sakura Fubuki light pistol loaded with capsule rounds and Ringu. Use burst fire, and everything is suddenly much easier. Oh, and having more shooting dice than his reaction would be a stellar plan. These guys aren't meant to be beat, so at least powergame a tiny bit if you want to beat one.
Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 5 2011, 06:55 AM
But a human can get 6 base + 1 metagenetic + 1 enhanced attribute + 1 genetic optimization + 3 cerebral boosters for 12 Logic, then add neocortical nanites for the 3 DP boost in non-stressful situations, 1 DP for PuSHeD, 1 DP (non-knowledge) for encephalon, 2 DP for the analytical mind quality since it seems to relate to the challenges you're talking about.
18-19 effective logic score (most of it costs essence, so dragons aren't getting it). Do GD's seem like lab mice to me now?
Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 5 2011, 06:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqdaKZW48KU&feature=player_embedded#at=59.
Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 5 2011, 07:23 AM
And delivered via a very big https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbtwnH6oBU.
Posted by: Tycho Aug 5 2011, 08:04 AM
I don't know, but I would expect every great dragon to have a force 25 detect enemy, extended spell active all the time, so as soon as you come into the proximity of the Dragon he just knows you there to kill him...
and as soon as he knows that, the shit hits the fan for all you plans. It is not only about the stats, but the magic resources a great dragon can have, like 20 bound spirits with force 10+ and stuff are no fun to go up against.
cya
Tycho
Posted by: Irion Aug 5 2011, 08:25 AM
Yeah, thats when the magic system in Shadowrun goes crazy...
Posted by: squee_nabob Aug 5 2011, 01:11 PM
I agree. I feel like having Great Dragons and immortal elves devalue the faceless corporate horror of shadowrun. You know corporations are evil, but there isn’t a single head to chop off, it’s a faceless hydra. Even if you kill the CEO, another one will show up and you really have to work to destroy all of their assets. With singular super powerful beings, it is more about having a diamond coated indestructible head than a hydra.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 01:35 PM
Force 24. Dragons are statted to only have 12 magic.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Aug 5 2011, 01:36 PM
Yep, this is more of a thought excercise. Kinda of like Luke Skywalker blowing up the deathstar type shot. Up the snout, into the brain cavity, and bounce around a bit....
Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 5 2011, 02:08 PM
You know, I'd personally love to see this mirrored in the universe next year.
"Since we ran the exclusive, in-depth discussion of Lofwyr, great dragon and CEO of Saeder-Krupp for those who have been living under a rock for the past fifty years, assassination attempts against ol' Golden Snout have skyrocketed. We've counted sixteen known attempts thusfar and there are probably several more that were stopped before they ever so much as aimed a bullet at him. Today, we'll be interviewing several grieving family members of those ex-would-be-assassins and, as a special bonus, our matrix feed will include the urns that each one's ashes are kept in... a sinle click and you can buy your own!"
Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 5 2011, 03:20 PM
Thing is, SR is a dual game. It is one part fantasy, one part cyberpunk. The immortal ones allow some of us to play a different game from those that want to battle the man-made horrors that are Corporations with global reach (in a way you can not win against them, only fight them to a stalemate so that you can have a fleeting moment of tranquility. This much like battling a Lovecraftian creation).
But consider something like that will, and how many events it triggered. So even tho one off a dragon, its legacy will not just up and vanish. They are used to fighting their own kind, meaning that they may well have drawn up multiple plans that spin into action decades after their own death. So killing a dragon may well see the team fighting off other teams hired via some fund manager johnson long after the story of the dragons demise no longer get them free drinks at the bar. This besides the issue of them showing up at your nursing home bed if you did not personally torch the body decades ago.
SR allows itself to be played many ways, depending on what aspects of its rich setting is put into focus.
One can play it like James Bond, Matrix or even Resident Evil (nothing like being sent to some facility in the middle of nowhere, only to find the place crawling with something that makes Ghouls look like puppies. Oh and your ticket out is void). Hell, go crazy with the archology and you may have your old fashion dungeon crawl.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 03:59 PM
But consider something like that will, and how many events it triggered. So even tho one off a dragon, its legacy will not just up and vanish. They are used to fighting their own kind, meaning that they may well have drawn up multiple plans that spin into action decades after their own death. So killing a dragon may well see the team fighting off other teams hired via some fund manager johnson long after the story of the dragons demise no longer get them free drinks at the bar. This besides the issue of them showing up at your nursing home bed if you did not personally torch the body decades ago.
SR allows itself to be played many ways, depending on what aspects of its rich setting is put into focus.
One can play it like James Bond, Matrix or even Resident Evil (nothing like being sent to some facility in the middle of nowhere, only to find the place crawling with something that makes Ghouls look like puppies. Oh and your ticket out is void). Hell, go crazy with the archology and you may have your old fashion dungeon crawl.
This is very true, in my opinion. And that is what makes it a fun game.
Hells, even if your PC's from one group dish out and kill Lofwyr, it may be covered up (I don't know for sure, but how many public appearances does golden snout make in a year?) To the truly enterprising GM, he could continue the world with a new group, fully unaware the dragon is dead, and have outing it be the point of a run (though, probably not an early run, that's for sure).
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 04:05 PM
Hells, even if your PC's from one group dish out and kill Lofwyr, it may be covered up (I don't know for sure, but how many public appearances does golden snout make in a year?) To the truly enterprising GM, he could continue the world with a new group, fully unaware the dragon is dead, and have outing it be the point of a run (though, probably not an early run, that's for sure).
Or even the clever and truly mean GM that has the players do all the work to get close enough to Golden Snout to make a hit on him, and find only a skeleton awaiting them.
Whoops. Looks like someone got here first, man they really kept that hush-hush.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 04:08 PM
Yeah, but is it real or just special effects? Skeletons are comparatively easy to make....
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 5 2011, 04:09 PM
Dragons don't leave Skeletons, do they?
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 04:13 PM
Fluff says there are rumoured dragons in the fossil record. Haven't seen a definite on that, but just a rumour is enough for me in this game.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 04:15 PM
It's pixies that don't.
Dragons (likely) do. Although no one's recovered a body to make sure.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 5 2011, 04:15 PM
As far as i can remember, these are Dragons having been killed in pretty much mundane Ways and still . .
Big D: No Bones.
Tessien: No Bones.
Haesslich: No Bones.
Nebelherr or Nachtmeister, killed by Lofwyr: No Bones.
Feuerschwinge: No Bones.
Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 04:17 PM
I think it mostly depends on how they go out. Dunkie == no skeleton, for obvious reasons. His will, however, did mention dragon bones and such, so I'm inclined to say that yes, dragons do leave skeletons. Usually.
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 5 2011, 04:19 PM
But consider something like that will, and how many events it triggered. So even tho one off a dragon, its legacy will not just up and vanish. They are used to fighting their own kind, meaning that they may well have drawn up multiple plans that spin into action decades after their own death. So killing a dragon may well see the team fighting off other teams hired via some fund manager johnson long after the story of the dragons demise no longer get them free drinks at the bar. This besides the issue of them showing up at your nursing home bed if you did not personally torch the body decades ago.
SR allows itself to be played many ways, depending on what aspects of its rich setting is put into focus.
One can play it like James Bond, Matrix or even Resident Evil (nothing like being sent to some facility in the middle of nowhere, only to find the place crawling with something that makes Ghouls look like puppies. Oh and your ticket out is void). Hell, go crazy with the archology and you may have your old fashion dungeon crawl.
I don't dislike dragons in principle. What I don't like about them is the way that so much of the material about Great Dragons and especially Immortal Elves reads like wank-filled self insert fan-fiction. I actually think they would be much better if the fluff reflected the crunch - dragons are powerful because they are smart and immortal, not because they breathe fire. Lofwyr should be frightening because he's the CEO of a AAA Megacorp, and not because he can kung fu fight like crazy. And that's actually what the stats reflect - dragons ARE pretty tough, but they cannot singlehandedly destroy cities or crush armies and if they try to take on a well-prepared group of skilled shadowrunners solo, they aren't going to win.
Immortal Elves can just go die, though.
Posted by: PoliteMan Aug 5 2011, 04:26 PM
I can dig this, there's nothing wrong with making them very powerful, beyond what any single human could achieve.
Even Smaug got shafted by a hobbit and a human, however, and D&D is literally about killing dragons in dungeons. It seems very odd that in a dark, cyberpunk world the dragons are so powerful that no "mortal" can kill them.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 04:29 PM
Only died creating a massive magical artifact and ripped a hole in the space-time continuum. I hardly expect to find bones.
Haesslich: No Bones.
Fell into a lake/pudget sound, assumed dead, body never recovered.
Tessien I don't recall what happned.
Golden Nose probably ate the corpses.
Never heard of 'im.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 04:30 PM
Even Smaug got shafted by a hobbit and a human, however, and D&D is literally about killing dragons in dungeons. It seems very odd that in a dark, cyberpunk world the dragons are so powerful that no "mortal" can kill them.
Show me one PC in D&D that fit the definition of "mortal" in the sense of most myths and I'll concied the point.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Aug 5 2011, 04:44 PM
Also, most D&D (WARNING CAUSES CANCER) GMs just play them as 1 dimensional monsters. In shadowrun, dragons should be feared more for their intelligence than anything else. Ghostwalker taking on Denver and the Azzies is a case in point why you don't mess with great dragons in SR---not only is he basically a fighter-bomber in the flesh, he's a master tactictioan and magician to boot.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 5 2011, 04:59 PM
Fell into a lake/pudget sound, assumed dead, body never recovered.
Tessien I don't recall what happned.
Golden Nose probably ate the corpses.
Never heard of 'im.
I'll give you people Big D.
Big D writing something in his will about dragon bones i'll not even consider.
He was a master shemer who would use it to put people on a mad goose chase . .
Haesslich was shot by a Minigun in the Secrets of Power Trilogy.
Tessien was a fethered serpent killed by Haesslich in physical combat shortly before.
Nachtmeister or Nebelherr or Kaltenstein was killed in mid flight and fell to the ground.
Feuerschwinge was a female great western dragon, the mate of nachtmeister or nebelherr or kaltenstein . .
Shot down over the Sox by German Fighter Jets with missles. Later on Napalmbombed in the Sox.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 05:02 PM
Sadly I have to agree with your analysis of dragon's in D&D. I had a DM once that would not modify anything in the monster manual (3.5). This led to his dragons being very underpowered, since the 3.5 MM specifically set dragons up to be created. No definite skill list, no definite feats, just suggestion of what "most would take", and effective sorcerer abilities (as the class) without any spell lists.
Posted by: PoliteMan Aug 5 2011, 05:04 PM
Fair enough. There's a couple of Barbarians and Fighters who'd match the "Herculean" definition of mortal. Outside of the magic users it's "usually" within the bounds of "mortal"-ish, "mortal demigod", mortal with the mythic quotation marks.
And it's not like the SR boys are slouches themselves. Transplant them into another setting (wow, we're going down a dangerous road) and you're average Sam is gonna seem pretty darn superpowered. The only reason they don't seem crazy is because everyone is like that in SR.
Huh, I don't recall much strategy being used, more like "RARR! I am Ghostwalkerzilla. Me and my spirits stomp Denver." What clever strategy did you see Ghostwalker using?
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 05:06 PM
Big D writing something in his will about dragon bones i'll not even consider.
He was a master shemer who would use it to put people on a mad goose chase . .
Haesslich was shot by a Minigun in the Secrets of Power Trilogy.
Tessien was a fethered serpent killed by Haesslich in physical combat shortly before.
Nachtmeister or Nebelherr or Kaltenstein was killed in mid flight and fell to the ground.
Feuerschwinge was a female great western dragon, the mate of nachtmeister or nebelherr or kaltenstein . .
Shot down over the Sox by German Fighter Jets with missles. Later on Napalmbombed in the Sox.
Feuerschwinge's body was never recovered, never even stated to be dead by anyone in the area, except to say "She must be dead. There is no sign of her anywhere". Given she was in the SOX and napalm bombed, it is entirely possible she has become something new, a radiation fueled great dragon, or worse.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 05:07 PM
Look up the Xorvintaal template. MM4? It takes away their shitty spellcasting and gives them better powers. Things like "if I get reduced to negative hitpoints, instead of dying, I appear dead* and regenerate to full."
*As in, the corpse is still a corpse, for all intents and purposes, unless it's beheaded. Then it's just a corpse.
Also keep in mind that Denver only had token military forces. You know, two tanks and a squad of soliders manning the walls. It was a cold war.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 05:11 PM
*As in, the corpse is still a corpse, for all intents and purposes, unless it's beheaded. Then it's just a corpse.
I am aware of the "Dragons of the Great Game". In my group I was the only DM that would use any monsters outside of the MM1, and I had all of those books (Including Fiend Folio)
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 5 2011, 05:15 PM
She was NOT dead after the Missles shot her down into the Sox.
She reappeared in a novel and allready was a toxic mutated great western dragon.
She THEN was Napalm-Bombed. And still, no bones to be found . .
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 05:17 PM
Ever used the zern? (MM5)
I had a GM that used them for a campaign and we didn't believe that he hadn't made them up himself (because no one reads MM5).
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 5 2011, 05:48 PM
Big D writing something in his will about dragon bones i'll not even consider.
He was a master shemer who would use it to put people on a mad goose chase . .
Haesslich was shot by a Minigun in the Secrets of Power Trilogy.
Tessien was a fethered serpent killed by Haesslich in physical combat shortly before.
Nachtmeister or Nebelherr or Kaltenstein was killed in mid flight and fell to the ground.
Feuerschwinge was a female great western dragon, the mate of nachtmeister or nebelherr or kaltenstein . .
Shot down over the Sox by German Fighter Jets with missles. Later on Napalmbombed in the Sox.
Wasn't there a feathered serpent that was sacrificed by Aztlan on the trid?
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 5 2011, 05:51 PM
Sacrificed?
One of their GODS?
No, i think the closest they got to that was making one go to trial for crimes against humanity or something . .
By the way, what happened then/there?
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 05:57 PM
I was pretty sure it was a western dragon they upped and offed on their altar.
But I don't know for sure.
One of their GODS?
No, i think the closest they got to that was making one go to trial for crimes against humanity or something . .
By the way, what happened then/there?
You're not really up on http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mayincatec culture are you? They regularly sacrificed their gods in order to "free them of their moral body so that they may return to heaven."
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 5 2011, 06:01 PM
One of their GODS?
No, i think the closest they got to that was making one go to trial for crimes against humanity or something . .
By the way, what happened then/there?
Wasn't it the Feathered Serpent leading the rebels in Yucatán Peninsula? I can't recall but I think the Aztlaner president or supreme judge was assassinated during/after/before the trial.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 5 2011, 06:03 PM
Now look what you've done...
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 06:06 PM
And?
I've built up an immunity, you should too.
Posted by: Warlordtheft Aug 5 2011, 06:10 PM
I am assuming that is sarcasm. My denver boxed set is packed up right now, but Ghostwaler was described as using lots of spirits, high power magic, and hit and run tactics. Meanwhile he recruited a spokes person and he got 6 of the 7 signatories to agree to his demands and booted the Azzies out.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 5 2011, 06:11 PM
No! http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigNo! I had work to do! My children will go hungry because of you! http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouMonster!
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 5 2011, 06:12 PM
Yip
A little bit. Point was, it doesn't take that much (on Ghostwalker's part) to be a royal pain in the ass because the forces he was attacking weren't very well prepared or very large.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 5 2011, 06:45 PM
I had a GM that used them for a campaign and we didn't believe that he hadn't made them up himself (because no one reads MM5).
HAd plans to. Never got the chance. The group moved into 4th edition and refused to budge from there.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Aug 5 2011, 09:15 PM
Per Street Legends, Lofwyr has a Magic of 27. There are no spells specifically listed as anchored or quickened, but he has the metamagics for them.
GMs--With Hardened Armor 20, and Mystic Armor 20, how many of you are stating that his mystic armor also counts as hardened? In the power description for Mystic Armor, it states that it can be hardened if the critter has Hardened Armor, but not that it is? I'd tend to say yes, just because it makes life easier for bookkeeping.
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 5 2011, 09:26 PM
Only 27? Wow. I remember reading somewhere that the IE's like Harlequin where in the 'high double digits' and would expect the biggest baddest of the Greats to be similar.
Also, since he's been around since at least the 4th Age, he'd have access to absurd metamagical techniques, from Draconic to Theran and worse. Maybe go back to Earthdawn, pull out spell matricies, and start tossing around force 30 spells with zero drain? In Big D's will, they mention an assassin killing one of his translators, and was then "reduced to his flaming component atoms with a glance." Lofwyr would do similar.
Maybe just create a special Lofwyr die pool; kills (hits) PCs per IP. And you know he's got anchored Improve Reflexes.
Posted by: Glyph Aug 5 2011, 10:36 PM
The exact quote (SR4, not SR4A, which might be slightly different) reads: "Some critter may also have hardened Mystic Armor (if they also have the Hardened Armor power)." I have always read that as saying that if you have both powers, the hardening counts for the mystic armor, too. Note that the critter power is NOT the same as the adept power of the same name! It is astral armor. So basically, the dragon has 20 hardened armor on both the physical and the astral planes.
Posted by: BishopMcQ Aug 5 2011, 11:12 PM
Glyph--Yeah, the "may also have" is the part that I was referring to. Really, it's just me beating myself up for not having caught it when I did all the critter powers for Running Wild. I would have changed the last line to read "Treat the critter's Mystic Armor as hardened, if the creature also has the Hardened Armor critter power." Mea culpa for not fixing it when it was on my assignment.
Back to the OP--I'd go with a Dwarf Mage, specializing in Counterspelling (Detection), an Ork Hacker with group contact GOD at Loyalty 6, a Human Longarms specialist, and an Elf Face specializing in corporate politics. All of whom have Lucky and max Edge. Basically maneuver and use the 6th World against Lofwyr avoiding direct confrontation until Lofwyr decides he wants to kill the team personally. Burn as much Edge as needed to take down Lofwyr--29 Edge vs 6, even with Twist Fate the odds are against him.
Finally, bribe the GM heavily. When asking the GM to use the power of plot to determine which side is going to win, remind him/her of the bribe and promise to match it the following week if things go well.
Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 6 2011, 07:54 AM
Immortal Elves can just go die, though.
I guess the basic problem is that in the end humans are supposed to write about super-human beings. That can derail pretty quickly (just observe the impossibility there is in trying to stat superman). At best your looking at some kind of "i have a contingency for that" GM statement made up on the spot to get the big bad out of the problem in some near-loony tunes way if one ever try to really play out the cunning and long term view of such beings.
And the only dragon known to have leveled a city on his own was Aden. And that was done when dragons, and magic in general, was something very new. And we do not know if he did it on his own or had spirits to aid him like Ghostwalker. And the event in question was back story even in SR1, and a lot of the early SR stuff was written using the rule of cool (just consider the various issues related to the NAN being formed).
Posted by: Wakshaani Aug 6 2011, 02:24 PM
Also, since he's been around since at least the 4th Age, he'd have access to absurd metamagical techniques, from Draconic to Theran and worse. Maybe go back to Earthdawn, pull out spell matricies, and start tossing around force 30 spells with zero drain? In Big D's will, they mention an assassin killing one of his translators, and was then "reduced to his flaming component atoms with a glance." Lofwyr would do similar.
Maybe just create a special Lofwyr die pool; kills (hits) PCs per IP. And you know he's got anchored Improve Reflexes.
An ancient, ancient war, this. Harley was mentioned as "A high-level adept, with a double-digit initiation", not "high double-digits". This means he could be anywhere from a 10th, to a 99th, rank initiate. Some prefer him in the 80's, others in the low teens. I, personally, put him at a 12, making him equal to the 'default' Great Dragon's Magic of 12, as befits the single greatest metahuman magician in the world. (For the record, Oscurro/Darke, the head Blood Magic guy for Aztlan, was a rank 6.)
Posted by: Irion Aug 6 2011, 10:31 PM
@PoliteMan
Not really.
You just need to take a look at D&D. "Oh, my blood is on fire, thats 10 Points of damage. So I only got 90 hitpoints left..."
"Oh look a metior just hit me"
(Not to mention, that D&D rogues could evade a thor shot...
@Wakshaani
I really wished they would have taken a moment and thought about which way they wanted to go.
(I mean thats just bad. In the core book you have great dragons with 12 and in Street magic you got regular humans with those values...)
Posted by: The Jopp Aug 7 2011, 12:18 AM
The best thing a GM did that I knew was to tell the lvl 30 paladin the following:
GM: Ok, so you want to kill the great dragon. Why?
Paladin: I'm lvl 30 paladin, I can beat it.
GM: Ok, the dragon goes first. It lifts from the ground and flies up to 300 feet. Then it starts to shoot fireballs on you.
Paladin: ...Thats not fair...
Posted by: Omenowl Aug 7 2011, 02:11 AM
Reminds me when I used a 1st level Ninja to Kill Lolth in 1st edition AD&D. It is not the fact that the being cannot be killed, but rather getting to the point where they can be killed. Reminds me of the last Denver run in missions where ghostwalker came for the players. It was silly and stupid. It did not help that I had a location underground that removed 99% of his advantages and the fact my plan was to bury him with explosives.
The reality is players should almost never be able to get to the point of meeting the dragon. They are shadowy background figures who work through proxies. They didn't live that long based upon showing themselves to be slaughtered.
It is like attacking the US president. You might know where he is located, but actually getting to him, let alone making it out alive is a whole other issue. Now combine this with a being who is like a blue whale in size and toughness. As a GM I don't feel like saying to my players congratulations you killed ghostwalker, but died by his bodyguards and forces. Make new characters.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 02:13 AM
Posted by: Glyph Aug 7 2011, 04:16 AM
What kind of lame-ass paladin doesn't have a holy sword (with its magic-dispelling field) by 30th level? And it's kind of dumb for any character, of any level, to challenge a flying creature in open terraign, when you (apparently) don't have any ranged attacks.
Posted by: Halinn Aug 7 2011, 01:54 PM
What D&D character can't fly permanently by level 15, not to mention 30... That paladin got what was coming to him.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 03:07 PM
Hey, Paladin! What was his mount? Fluttershy?
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 7 2011, 03:46 PM
*cocks shotgun*
THE
PALADIN
DIES!
Posted by: Halinn Aug 9 2011, 10:23 PM
Psh. Fluttershy can solo dragons. She doesn't need no stinking paladin.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 10 2011, 12:44 AM
Actually, she'd probably ask for an autograph.
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