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Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 4 2011, 03:00 AM

Jason's not here right now, since he's doing the GenCon thing, so I thought I'd post the links for the new book, since I'm anxious to talk about it.

http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=street+legends&x=0&y=0

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=93648

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!!

Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 04:50 AM

It's alive...

ALIVE!

ALIVE!!! MUH-HA-HA-HA!!!

...

*Cough*

I'll tell you what I think when I get a chance to read it properly. Skimmed over, seemed decent.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 4 2011, 05:17 PM

I look forward to your review. Of course, I really want to know what (if anything) people think about the small part I wrote, but I'm interested in hearing about the whole thing.

The problem with books released at GenCon...many of the people who might be interested in commenting on it are at the con and not online....

Posted by: Starglyte Aug 4 2011, 05:22 PM

I have gotten up to Parlor Tricks, and so far the only entry that I was meh about was Kellan Colt. Not bad, but I didn't really find her that interesting.

Posted by: BookWyrm Aug 4 2011, 08:22 PM

Hmmm, $25 is a tad steep for me these days. After a couple of prospects pan out later, I may grab the PDF.

Posted by: Pepsi Jedi Aug 4 2011, 10:40 PM

It's a bit past 'tad steep' for an electronic copy. I love my PDF books but $25 for a down load is alot. Course so is $45 for a supplement. $50 bucks when you factor in either gas to get it or shipping for a single supplement book? Not even a core 'Start' book? That's getting out of casual hobby and edging up into 'very expensive hobby' sort of category. I love RPGs and really like Shadowrun, but 45 bucks for one supplement is gettin' nuts.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 11:11 PM

It could be worse.

It could be Warhammer Minis and you have multiple armies.

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 4 2011, 11:50 PM

Alot of the industry has adjusted price points down on pdf products as they realize the value of spending money on a virtual product for the budget conscious. Catalyst seems to have decided to stay on the high end of the scale. I'm all for putting up 10 or 15 bucks for a great pdf product, and do so for my two other most favorite rpg's. For SR I wait for the hardcopy and it's a shame as SR is the only one I buy every single release for. Heres to waiting a month or two before I get to see SL, looking forward to spoilers and reviews.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 4 2011, 11:52 PM

Here's a spoiler: Bull is old and cranky and beats people (virtually) over the head for trying to call him a hacker.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Aug 4 2011, 11:55 PM

Bull's been that way for years...oh, you probably meant "Bull" from Street Legends.

@Bull--I hope you had one for me at the Claddagh last night. First Indy I've missed in awhile.

Posted by: Starglyte Aug 5 2011, 12:21 AM

I was not expecting Mihoshi Oni to be a Fomori Troll. Makes me want to see her back story.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 02:24 AM

The hardcopy's expensive because it's a fill-color book and full color costs a lot of bucks. I couldn't tell you why the PDF is so high; I don't set prices.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 5 2011, 03:10 AM

High-end electrons?

I was thinking maybe filesize, but Runner's Companion is showing in at 40 Megs or so, and Street Legends don't even hit 15 Megs.

Likely, it's to due to the DTF being so expensive, so the PDF has to match that equivalent price in order to encourage purchasing the DTF instead of, or people might only buy it on PDF.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 5 2011, 03:38 AM

That is one colorful cover, me likes

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 5 2011, 04:40 AM

I'm a little shocked by what the Nadja Daviar article's writer did with Aina Dupree.

I thought the thing you guys did with cerberus/eliohann was an interesting idea.

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 5 2011, 06:26 AM

(elbows 800lb gorilla out of the way)
So IE & GD stats living up everyone's hopes or fears? Probably the stats I most want to see.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 5 2011, 12:11 PM

[Disclaimer, I did the equivalent of skimming over a book at my FLGS. So consider this a superficial analysis of a small sample and not a detailed review. I also can't say anything about the short stories]

All in all, I get the impression that the preview conveyed a really good and comprehensive image of the book. Like Rigger X, the stats seem to be completely average across the board, with no special gear, capabilities or knowledge to qualify these guys as legends (or Jackpointers). Obviously, the dragons and Surehand are an exception to that, their stats basically are a more eloquent way of saying "I'm invulnerable and can do everything" -- did you expect anything else?
In the same vein, the descriptions of Bull and Villiers are quite representative. The fluff texts alternate wildly between the stereotypical charsheet background text plus minutes taken during a campaign (I swear I heard the dice rolling in my head when skimming over Elijah), and detailed "omnipresent narrator" information. While both formats have their merits, it would have been nice to agree on one

Overall, Street Legends makes a nice collection of NPCs who are more versatile and durable than the mooks presented in normal core books. If the short stories are entertaining and it drops in price a bit, I will definitely consider picking it up.
Yet at what it was promised to be, namely a fluff book, it just fails to deliver.


Oh, and the usual random list of "hm, that doesn't look right"
- Puck doesn't have any cyber, not even a datajack
- The guy writing about Puck (Icarus IIRC) casually mentions that both Deus and Pax are still around. The assembled matrix elite of the Sixth Worlds responds with "will it rain, do you think?"
- Villiers and Lanier have several points of Essence in Deltaware, that's anything but "minimally augmented"

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 5 2011, 03:17 PM

I understand from a developer point of view statting needs to middle ground to fulfill the cheering crowds at both ends of the "stadium". But some min-maxing in "Prime Runners" would/should be expected. Example: No excuse a high end runner wouldn't have the highest rated device targeted at his area of expertise. Or mods that make said runners job easier.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 03:30 PM

Well. no one's bitched about de Vries yet (though the day is yet young), so maybe my streak continues. I was sure it was going to come crashing to the ground with this book....

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 5 2011, 03:37 PM

If it helps I promise to comment once I get a hardcopy. *smirk*

Posted by: Sengir Aug 5 2011, 03:50 PM

Can't say anything about the implementation, but the idea is hilarious. And de Vries at least makes sense in a book supposedly about "legends". He is an unusual concept, has archived quite some notoriety, and has a trick up his sleeve which is normally considered impossible (Essence Focus).

And speaking of the Infected, one other thing that rubbed me the wrong way: There is a big and shocking revelation about Hannibelle, which totally changes the way people will view her both IC and OOC...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 5 2011, 03:53 PM

It is a big, shocking thing about Hannibelle. Everyone assumed that she was seeking alternatives, not doing... That.

As pointed in the Shadowtalk, when KANE is defending your moralistic position, it's time to go home and rethink your life. Oh, she's a hacker, she's already home. Half that job is already done.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 04:01 PM

The beautiful thing about writing Martin up was that I had free reign to do just about any damn thing I wanted. It was a lot of fun to write that; I just wish I'd had another, oh, thousand words or so. And better art.

Which part of the implementation do you have trouble with (if any)? I'm genuinely curious about people's reaction to the piece.

Posted by: Method Aug 5 2011, 04:40 PM

Can anyone comment on the editing? Is this book plagued with the typos and errors we've seen in recent releases?

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 5 2011, 06:26 PM

For the writing? It's ok. I wouldn't say it's plagued with bad editing, but I have noticed a fair number of typos in the multiple write-ups I've read so far. They're not incredibly obvious typos that make you think "where the hell were the proofreaders for this thing," like that big error in the 6WA that got a lot of people upset, though. Just little things.

I have noticed several mechanical errors in the stats, though. Ones I've found so far after going through with a fine-toothed comb:

Several of the Awakened guys with power foci have their magic listed as augmented by said foci. That's wrong, since 4e power foci don't boost Magic directly, but that's kind of a technicality. Not all of the people with power foci have this error. Martin DeVries doesn't, for example.

Haze is listed with an augmented Edge of 7. As in "6 (7)." There is nothing I recall that augments Edge like that. If it's supposed to be from his rating 1 lucky rabbit's foot power focus, it needs to be spelled out in the stat notes.

Minor nitpick: Ma'Fan's "Exceptional Attribute (Edge)" is supposed to be called Lucky.

Mika's Magic attribute should be 6, because of his augmentations. The stats seem to not take into account the reduced Essence on his magic.

Serrin Shamander's personal watchers have their mental stats listed at F, but it isn't specified whether he can summon those spirits at a Force higher than 1.

Sticks' Initiative and IP are not listed.

Thorn: see above with Mika.

There is no bloody way that Winterhawk's edge should be as high as listed. Not even Lofwyr and Hestaby have Edge that high.

Not sure whether Hannibelle is technically allowed to still be dual natured with her current Essence.

Kia's Agility augmented cap doesn't go quite that high. Unless I'm doing my math wrong.

It'd be nice if Hestaby's and Lofwyr's stats included notes, since I'm sure the discrepancy between their Initiative and their actual Int + Rea is from quickened spells but there isn't anything actually specified and elaborated on as such.



Keep in mind that I don't think the book is really too bad. I actually rather like it, to tell you the truth. And a lot of the art looks sweet, IMHO.

On a separate note,

I like the split happening with the great dragons over Hestaby's speech, by the way. Interesting turn of events, methinks.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 06:40 PM

Here be spoilers.

No, really.

Turn back now and don't click on the spoiler below.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 5 2011, 08:25 PM

*Headdesk* Not the lusty brown nipples again!

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 5 2011, 09:04 PM

The word "brown" appears several times in the book. I don't believe either of the other ones does.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 6 2011, 12:06 AM

She is a ghoul, and she is working for Tamanous (yes, I grossly misspelled that name before). That she also relies on Tamanous for food is not a surprise, it's just counting two and two together. It's not shocking, either, because compared to working for body snatchers, buying from them is rather harmless.

If somebody was known to be an addict and working for a drug cartel, would you consider is surprising if he also got his supply through that cartel? Would acquiring the drugs to feed his own addiction make him look worse than the known fact that he helps shipping drugs into the country?

@Patrick: Like I said, can't really say anything about de Vries' stats since I only skimmed over the book.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 6 2011, 12:21 AM

@Sengir: Fair enough. I'd really love to see what someone who saw Prime Runners back in the day has to say about the conversion from SR2 to SR4. That was kind of a pain in the ass, but it turned out to be kind of fun, too.

Posted by: Doc Chase Aug 6 2011, 05:07 AM

Says you. I'll peruse tomorrow,looking forward to it after chatting with Bull.

And yes, it'll be a full one. I figure I'd raise the standard of my reviewing.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 6 2011, 07:31 AM

Posted by: Mäx Aug 6 2011, 10:07 AM

To add to the list of errors; Nadja Daviar has multiple improved ability powers at level 4, witch is 1 point too high.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 6 2011, 02:09 PM

I know, I know. Recently tried to convert Karl-Heinz (whom, along with the elven assassin I still consider the most iconic character from Prime Runners) to be used during a run. In the end, I simply wrote down a couple of notes on how to describe the utter failure of potential attempts to pull a fast one on him...

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 6 2011, 03:26 PM

I did something similar when I used Karl, just some notes, I do a have full conversion of that elf assassin floating around in one of my folders.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 6 2011, 05:46 PM

Of course the nature Karl-Heinz' (first item on my list: don't EVER call him "Kalle") makes it pretty easy to use the dramaturgy instead of dice rolls, since his arcane knowledge is beyond the players' gasp anyway.

Posted by: hermit Aug 6 2011, 10:57 PM

Right. You pop off to Norway for a few days an stuff happens. Review will hapen when I get it and read it through. However, in review terms, I wrapped up Spy Games and will post the thing once I get settled back in.

Edit: I've written DriveThru, and am awaiting their reply, but if the garbled, unreadable ... thing ... they sold me is what CGL gave them then that's an all-new low. Hoping it is some bandwidth/storage/whatever problem, though.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Aug 7 2011, 12:42 AM

Hermit--
The copy I have is clean and readable. Probably a data transmission error.

Posted by: hermit Aug 7 2011, 08:21 AM

Yes, it was. Got a working copy now.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 7 2011, 08:22 AM

We are waiting, honey.

Posted by: hermit Aug 8 2011, 01:28 PM

Gotta brush it up first. And find my old reviews again, because this also goes on DriveThru.

Stream of Consciousness review of Street Legends, part one:

Overall impression: Seems like Prime Runners in being an NPC collection with in parts okay, in parts bizarre stats. It looks slick and nicely put tgether. One thing you cannot fault CGL for is the look of their products, it has been fairly steadily improving. The content's a bit of a mixed bag, some things I dislike (like killing Aina DuPree in a half-sentence), some things I hate (the MariSoo rule, the Daviars shit Jason cooked up), but suprisingly many good things too, or things I am suprised with. But on to the stream. In no nparticular order, as I didn't read this book end to end.

Oh my god he actually did it. Jason Hardy pulled through the one plot that is even more stupid than his potted plant war and made the Daviars canon, a bunch of faces who look like Nadia Daviar and somehow are totally better than you. Congratulations, Jason, you really reinforce your reputation here. Not in a good way.

Introduction is present, so CGL learned that lesson. There also seems structure now, which also is an improvement over previous works compiled by Hardy. It sounds like vaguely coherent rambling, but them's the breaks.

The Legendary rule is so inane it goes really well with Slow and Recharge and much of the other bullshit from Bogotá!, so let's better consider it entirely optional, never mention it again and make it's appliance to any PC a reason to cast said player from the group.

"The man known as “Agent” is a force of chaos and fear in the jungle near Bogotá right now." Right next to it's seaport, I suppose. CGL seems intent to stick with being full of shit when it comes to South America. And as a bonus there is the bizarre NPC from Bogotá! again. Agent, the new Ryan McSue. Is that Hardy's own PC or why is he put in there? Nonetheless, meh. Whoever wrote Agent obviously believes in tell, don't show. "it is this work that makes him a rapidly growing legend." Shabby writing, that (if you were putting it better, that sentence would be unnecessary). Also, whoever wrote this confuses spirits and shamans. Dear author, you have read the base book, right?

So Serrin now is Night Haunter, as his Warrior Path? That's a bit ... extreme. Not sure if I like that. I did, however, feel the end of Nosferatu was way too happy (especially compared with the evil twist at the end of Streets of Blood). Of course, tying him to Netcat is ... gah. Reeks of Wheldon, who apparently is out on a quest to ruin every SR character I ever thought cool (have you read her piece in Spells and Chrome? Don't, if you like Findley's work even a bit. Just don't). On the fence there, though, for while I seriously dislike the way Netcat is portrayed, the changes to Serrin (poor guy, the universe really hats him) are interesting.

Puck: Yeah, Mengele had a bad childhood and was misled by Hitler and that explains what he did. And he cannot forget what he did (unlike, apparently, everyone with AIPS) and now we're suposed to sympathise with him. Gah. He's the Shinji Ikari of Shadowrun by now, a supposedly sympathetic character that just does not work.

Given I like the whole neo-Hindu (in-world, pre-Hindu) Paths of the Wheel stuff (and all it's implications), Thorn is an interesting idea. I guess I like him better than I thought I would. Whose PC is he?

Finally, someone slamms Slamm-O's stupid face in. He's about as tiresome to read as Netcat, /dev/ or Plan 9.

I like Bull as a character (also, he is the one decker in there who actually thinks security is not for losers). He's also been around long enough (when was his first post in published fiction, Cybertech? Bug City?) to actually be considered a legend, unlike some of the Jackpointers in there. I liked his art in the Missions books a lot better though, but YMMV. Must've been one hell of a campaign where he was played.

(Reminds me. Damnit, Bull. Will there ever be CMP missions? I'm very much looking forard to them. Am I the only one who is or is Missions still the red-headed stepchild of the line, despite apparently selling okay?)

DeVries had me laugh and grin a lot. Given my dislike of the cuddle-cuddle Twilight take on the Infected in recent publications, that isn't really suprising, but still. Is there an unpublished novel from the eyes of a vampire stalker too, recounting the action of Shadows at Noon from the villain's perspective? Also, the first time /dev/ is used in a way that adds something (humor, in this case) without feeling tacked on, like /dev/ being JackPoint's expert on camouflage, makeup and gadgets (as opposed to gadget-happy cat burglars like Mika or facedancers like Hard Exit). Overall, DeVries was fun to read. Maybe there'll be vampire slayer gangs now. Time to put some pressure on the oWoD refugees.

Hannibelle is another of these oh-so-disenfranchised characters that don't work for me. In SR, life is cheap, so why should a creature like a ghoul's life be precious? Anyway, all the cozy-tozy Twilight-wank asside, this does try to make 'belle more ambiguous. However, wasn't she supposed to be an ork ghoul?

Akuchi and Cayman aren't very remarkable really, neither stats-wise nor in thier background, but that's the nature of the beast I guess. They can be used as local NPC in Africa, if you want to, though, and their art rocks.

Haze's bit comes off as strange in a document that looks to make mass mrerers and organ traders seem sympathetic. So he mindfucks people. That's probably not very nice, but come on,it's what everyone with an instruction manual and a PAB, or psychotropic programs, personafixes and the like, can do. Yeah, it's an asshole thing to do, but come on, in a community where there are one of the worst mass murderers of the 20th century, a pirate who can one-up Asdrubael Vect in terms of wanton cruelty, several hitmen, and a ghoul who happily sells peoples' organs with the people still being alive, fucking someone up so they kill themselves is something that terrifying? It's okay to murder millions because you're a supernerd and some fucked-up entity whose madness is obvious tells you it's allright, it's okay to sell children to bunraku parlours by the hundreds, it's perfectly fine to blow up uildings, but woe be you if you edit someone's mind? A bit strange coming from that crowd. He's a magical conman specialising in mindfuck. Most on Jackpoint are worse, some even far, far worse, than him. Other than to illustrate Pistons losing it, the article seems a bit pointless in pushing Haze as a villain.

Kellan Colt seems a bit pointless in this collection. She'd be allright in a bunch of profiles on up-and-comers, but Street Legends? Come on. The stats are missing both The Tubeand her unique "cure addiction (Tempo)" spell, btw.

The other Jackpointers - Ma'Fan, Marcos, and the other runners - are not very remarkable, but usable if you want to. Nothing special there but for the observation that editing of the text seems rather sloppy again, showing in garbled sentences and missing words.

Winterhawk has Edge 10?! Seriously?!

The short stories are nice enough, though the Daviars network ... ARGH. Still, this book is less crap than I expected it to be. I'll give it 7 out of 10.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 8 2011, 02:22 PM

At least they're all still ugly and don't sparkle.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 8 2011, 02:42 PM

Will read this more in depth shortly, but I do need to address one or two little things.

I addressed this earlier, but it really wasn't meant to come across like that. There were some external factors that led to that.


To be fair to Jason, he didn't come up with the Nadjas. That was James Meiers.

EDIT: Okay, it's slow right now, so here's one more bit from me.


It was fun to write; I'm enormously pleased that you enjoyed reading it.

To be honest, I hadn't really taken the whole Twilight thing into account when I started this, though I suppose it was in the back of my mind. I was just looking for just about anything canonical about him so that I wouldn't fuck things up too badly, and the biggest piece I had available was him trying to hawk Shadows at Noon in Threats. There were little bits of shadowtalk here and there in past volumes talking about him wanting you to buy his new book, so I ran with that.

I'm not too happy with the "cuddly Infected" either, and I'm working to reverse that take. Now I've got Martin hiding in plain sight, so when the fall comes, it should be really ugly. At least that's the plan.


Not by Martin. It would have to be a fanfic of some sort. And knowing what an asshole he is, de Vries would probably sue.


She's not even approximately my favorite character. I'd originally wanted her to look really stupid, but that just seemed kind of gratuitous to me. In the end, I decided to make her...gasp!...a teenaged schoolgirl. I mean, who saw that coming, right?


And so it begins.... I wish I could have done more to fan the flames against Infected rights, but the little bit I got in there will have to do for the moment.

Again, I'm glad you liked him.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 8 2011, 02:42 PM

And I will endeavor to keep it that way.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 8 2011, 03:05 PM

If HMHVV-Infected start sparkling, Horizon and Aztechnology's combined PR wonderteam won't be able to stop the culling that will occur.

On the other hand, Ares, MCT, and S-K drone sales would go through the roof!

Posted by: Bull Aug 8 2011, 03:05 PM

I rolled in from Gen Con at 4:30 AM. It's not quite 11 now, and I'm about top pass the frag back out. But real quick:

Winterhawk had a formatting error that I swear was not there when we review the PDF proofs. ANyway, you'll note he's missing a Magic rating. He's supposed to be Magic 10, Edge 6, IIRC.

And Hermit: CMPs got reprioritized at Gen Con this year, actually. There's been a LOT of discussion about Missions and how we're handling them. The good news is they're back on track and have been bumped up in prioirty a little. The bad news is, they may delayed a little longer than anticipated. The good news is that they're being delayed because our art director has decided that he actually wants to see about putting new art in the PDF release instead of doing a more simple "All recycled art" like we had been planning. There will be emails going out later this week, once we all recover more, to discuss the CMPs and exactly what we're doing with them.

(THough for the moment, Layout may still be a little bit of a bottleneck, though seeing about getting additional Layout help has been discussed and will hopefully happen sometime).

Also, before anyone calls me on it... Bull does have Exceptional Attribute (Hacking) but does not have a maxed out Hacking skill. I did that deliberately, because to me 4E Hacking is different than Decking, code wise. So while a lot fo what Bull knew still applies, he's had to relearn some stuff. And he's not quite maxed out expert that someone like Fastjack is. Plus he spends more time playing FIxer and dealing with politics in Seattle than he does actually Hacking anymore, so he doesn't get the time to practice like he should.

And while I like the Missions art a lot, I have to say that Mr. Cordoba did a fantastic job with his art piece. There's a couple really nice details that really made it for me, most notably the collar on the long coat. He kind of has that larger, ridged looking collar that you used to see a LOT in 1st edition artwork from guys like Laubenstein, which I imagine gives it an out of date, old fashioned look, the equivalent of really large 1970's collars, or really skinny 80's style ties. It was a neat touch.

Bull

Posted by: CanRay Aug 8 2011, 03:09 PM

I think I still have my skinny leather tie.

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 8 2011, 03:51 PM

There is nothing about spirits having an inclination to torture people that doesn't fit with the setting, if that's what you're referring to.

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 8 2011, 04:01 PM

Also, Patrick/Bull/et. al, was there any particular reason why IE/GD-specific metamagics/spells were not included for Surehand, Hestaby, and Lofwyr? Were there copyright issues preventing the borrowing of magic ideas from Earthdawn, for example?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 8 2011, 04:12 PM

I'm really not sure, Sephiroth, though I'd imagine there would be some licensing issues along the way. I remember the question being brought up in discussions, but I'm not sure what the final reasoning turned out to be. I was facing some personal crises at the time, so I wasn't paying as much attention then as I might have.

Posted by: Nath Aug 8 2011, 05:29 PM

So Bull has Hacking as an attribute ?

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 8 2011, 06:35 PM

Dude, do not poke the sleepy Bull

Posted by: horvagab Aug 8 2011, 07:15 PM

So, umm.... I'm a newb and pretty light on Shadowrun lore and previous editions...

But seeing as the world of Shadowrun is populated by orks, elves, trolls, dwarves, vampires etc... and yes humans why is it that the content is overwhelmingly human males?

I know this sounds pretty PC, and it might actually be, but as I stated, my main concern is the lackign variety of other Shadowrun character types.

Posted by: Bull Aug 8 2011, 07:27 PM

Bah. Aptitude, I meant. He also has Exception Attribute (Logic). It does nothing for hacking (Which irritates me to no end), but he's always been smarter than the average ork.

Horvagab: It just shook out that way. *shrug* It was something we were discussing after the book was hitting layout. While there were a handful of character that Jason said "we want folks to write about these", the rest were all submissions from the freelancers, so it's characters that the freelancers wanted to write about. Afterward we looked an went "Huh, no Dwarfs or Trolls to be seen. Weird."

*shrug*

Bull

Posted by: Sengir Aug 8 2011, 07:53 PM

As if Humanis needed fanning...

And Bull, come to the resonant side...we have a use for Logic, and Resonance is something like hacking as an Attribute

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 8 2011, 07:59 PM

Actually, little as they've been used lately (and most of that, I think, not effectively)...yeah, they do. Yes, I like a ray of hope in my games...but you can't have light without darkness, and (meta)human hate and stupidity are some of the darkest things out there. Who needs corporate overlords when ordinary people are enough to wreck a society?

Oooops. Sorry. I'll stop ranting now, before I really get started.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 08:24 PM

It's okay, Patrick. It's the Texan in you...

Posted by: hermit Aug 8 2011, 09:49 PM

"If you think Humanis is bad, try a bunch of 12 year old kids", to paraphrase Bull.

I missed the bit on Aina before. So this is a tie-in to Artifacts, okay. I'll reserve judgement then. Still, the Nadias ... eh. But okay, so it wasn't Hardy's idea. He still went with it, like with the trees that make Amazonia start a war, but it wasn't his idea, my bad.

I really am looking forard to see more of deVries and the anti-Twilight movement of his. That was awesome. Other things - Serrin, Thorne - were pretty itneresting, too. I'm sort of missing Minoshi Oni, and agree with Seph that there should have been a bit more coordination about metatypes and variance. Maybe you can do a follow-up PDF?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 8 2011, 10:07 PM

Don't have anything to say here, really, I just wanted to perpetuate that statement. I was really worried how some folks were going to take that, and you were one of them, for reasons I can't quite put my fingers on.

Not that it would have changed the way I did it, mind you, but I would have been disappointed to find that you hated it. I want everyone to like what I write, but ultimately, the only person I'm really writing for here is, well, me. I'm fortunate, I suppose, in that stuff I like turns out to be stuff other people like, too.


Actually, I believe that one is in the works. Not sure who all is in it since I'm not working on it (and really not pursuing a lot of freelance work at the moment because of outside influences), but I think Mihoshi Oni will be in it because they've got art for her already.

But it was noticed. I'd love to do a whole other book like this sometime, because it was great fun to work on this one.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 8 2011, 11:01 PM

No he's not, he has a magic of 11 and right next to is and edge of 10.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 8 2011, 11:31 PM

A room temperature glass of water is smarter than your average ork.

That said (Far away from Orks, BTW), the one I write as a Shadowtalker sounds like dumb barrens muscle, but is actually exceptionally well read (Sleep Regulators will do that to you.). He just refuses to use a keyboard (Never learned to type), and uses a vocal recognizer to put in comments to posts. It's very difficult to talk with a "Dumb Trog" accent when you're discussing Nietzsche and Sun Tzu.Well, with their "Golden Boy" getting things ready in the Seattle Metroplex, it just might be time for another warehouse firesale...

Posted by: Bull Aug 9 2011, 01:22 AM

Humanis is seeing some use in Seattle Missions

Posted by: CanRay Aug 9 2011, 01:45 AM

Another reason for me to get into the Missions, I guess.

Posted by: horvagab Aug 9 2011, 08:12 AM

Yeah, I figured it was not deliberate, just how things happened. It seems strange, but hey, these guys are awesome, if I acuse them of being non-PC, I'll be blasted to bits or worse .

Thanks for the explanations though Bull

Posted by: Sengir Aug 9 2011, 11:41 AM

Uhm, Brackhaven? Humanis has certainly made more progress in recent years than ghouls since Bug City.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 9 2011, 12:49 PM

Well.. as LD Hardy does have the authority to deny submissions and at the same time present characters that need to be in the book. And he should have an overview who submitted what and what that means for the racial distribution.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 01:10 PM

But does it really matter? Is it really that bothersome that there are few, to no, representatives of the various other metatypes in the book? After all, by fluff, Humans outnumber the rest of the metahumans. Seems like that is represented by the book that was published.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 9 2011, 01:15 PM

Haven't been particularly impressed with the Brackhaven plotline, really, and even if I was, it's just Seattle. Humanis is supposedly a worldwide group of hateful bastards, and they've not been used effectively as a plot device.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 9 2011, 01:23 PM

Ah, that's lame.

I was more speculating on the way Hardy handled the question which character should be featured in Street Legends - Bulls posting made me think "Well, Hardy didn't care/ had no idea/ couldn't use his authority as LD". Each one sucks.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 01:38 PM

Ahhh... I see what you are saying, and I can understand that, I guess. I just can't summon up any reason to care that the Metatypes are not equally represented.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 9 2011, 01:46 PM

Pfff...

Posted by: Redjack Aug 9 2011, 02:47 PM

I played Serrin in the Tournament this year. What a blast playing someone with such a high Magic! I have two retired high grade initiates from previous editions stuck away in folders from games in the 50's and 60's. Gonna make it a priority to pull them out, brush them off and convert to SR4.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 9 2011, 03:00 PM

Well, all of the new books had the problem of resembling essay collections to varying degrees...imbalance between metatypes is the slightest problem (probably) resulting from that

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 9 2011, 04:02 PM

I met the real Bull over the weekend and he physically kicked me in the shin for saying the word RAW. True story. : )

Posted by: CanRay Aug 9 2011, 04:09 PM

OK, fixed that, thanks for the heads up.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 9 2011, 04:21 PM

That chapter was all me, actually. I mean, Jason approved it but...yeah. So blame or praise, I guess, right here. (Well, I mean, look at my user name.)



http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4415.msg63945#msg63945 It made me a sad panda. His Edge should be 4. His Magic should be 6 (7). I know that 6 (7) may technically not be the correct annotation but it seemed the clearest way to indicate his Magic was 6 without the focus and 7 with it. If I had just put '6' or '7' that would kind have left it up to the reader's best guess.



Come on dude, it's Shadowrun in-universe narrative we're talking about here. The point isn't some objective statement that Haze is a bad person, it's that Pistons thinks he is. We're in unreliable narrator city, here. Also, in truth, real life criminals due tend to accord a lot more respect to murderers than they do to (perceived) rapists. But I see your point and I do kind of wish I had had Riser or Kane make it a little bit more obvious in the text, the kind of thing you're saying. My authorial intent certainly was not to say as word of god that Haze is a "villain". Just that he's done some sketchy stuff which has made a lot of enemies with the more squeamish or morally sensitive runners out there.



You think Mr. Bonds or even FastJack knows the full extent of either of these guys' augmentations? Another example of in-universe shadowtalk being inaccurate, as it should be. Anyone on Jackpoint would be quite likely to underestimate the personal power of Miles Lanier, and regret it. I mean the guy has been past the point where he needs to kill people himself for many decades, but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy it.

That said, for the amount of augmentations they have both men have quite a fair bit of Essence remaining.

Posted by: Critias Aug 9 2011, 04:47 PM

*OM NOM NOMs on popcorn*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 04:52 PM

Except that Foci don't Increase the Magic Attribute in 4th Edition, they add Dice to the Skill pool. Unless there is a new Foci I am unaware of.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 9 2011, 05:32 PM

Pass some of that over here. *offers a caffeinated beverage in return*

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 06:03 PM

Does it have to be Caffeinated? My popcorn just finished popping... *profer's Bowl*

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 9 2011, 07:09 PM

It doesn't have to be, I suppose; it's just that most of my offerings are.

Posted by: Bull Aug 9 2011, 07:43 PM

Here Patrick, I have a wide variety of Mt. Dew flavors available. Scott Schletz was kind enough to bring me a 12-pack of Mt. Dew Pitch Black (WHich had been almost impossible to find locally), and I had a couple 2 liters of Typhoon stashed (Typhoon & Rum is a tasty combo ).

As for me? Well... I happen to still have Gurth's Stairs in storage, so I'm pulling them out and dusting off the couches for the freelancers. Come on in boys and girls, the freelancer crack has been refilled.

Bull

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 08:55 PM

Heh... Water is always good too, you know...
I only comment because I cannot have caffeine. *shrug*

Posted by: Grinder Aug 9 2011, 09:29 PM

Ok, we got it.

Posted by: Critias Aug 9 2011, 09:39 PM

Thorn's chapter (and fiction) were mine, but he's not my PC (which is to say he's no one's PC). He's a character from a short fiction piece I threw together many moons ago, that quite a few folks seemed to like but that never went anywhere else (Prayer, in case folks are wondering). The character's basic idea and evolution owe more to Jack Higgins' fun (if sometimes shallow) spy novels than he does any serious Hindu/Tir na nOg philosophies, but I thought it'd be fun to point out the perhaps-hypocritical pattern in how his life's fallen together.

He's also the guy that was the voice for a good chunk of Spy Games, and his reception from that piece earlier in the year is most of what got him into Street Legends. Other freelancers really glommed onto him and used him for lots of shadowtalk throughout SG (one even used him as the writer of the Tel Aviv section), and quite a few fans liked him, too...so, well, I figured I'd go ahead and stat him up, toss him in, and let 'er rip.

Posted by: Starglyte Aug 9 2011, 10:12 PM

Thorn is my favorite of the new JackPointers. All in all, other than a couple of entries I was meh about, I thought the book was well done.

Posted by: Critias Aug 9 2011, 10:21 PM

Cool. Glad to hear it!

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 10 2011, 12:06 AM

In all seriousness, the post that you were quoting when you posted this is in itself the response to this post.

Posted by: ggodo Aug 10 2011, 12:51 AM

I'd just like to say that I hate Kellan Colt for nothing else than being in Born to Run, and being a headdeskingly out of place character who is loved by all for her Purity of Heart. I was kinda hoping she had mind altering capabilities. Also she should have Fireball on her list, it was her first spell, after all.

Posted by: Critias Aug 10 2011, 01:07 AM

I'll readily admit I never made it all the way through her trilogy to see, but in what I did read of them, I don't remember her ever casting it again. Could be it was just that first random, terrified, angry, manifestation of power (as fire), and she never actually learned the actual spell, I guess.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2011, 03:15 AM

I think that you missed the point I was making. I was replying to your assertion that a Focus added directly to Magic Rating (Thus your annotation of 6(7)). Unfortunately, Foci do not work that way, least of all the Power Focus. THAT was what I was replying to.

No worries though.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 03:29 AM

I read the whole trilogy, continually going, "It's gotta get better, it's got to!", then drinking a whole case of brain bleach.

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 10 2011, 04:47 AM

Not only does Puck have no cyber, he has no Echoes either, which is odd, but explainable if he rid himself of all his cyber, got cloned eyes implanted and genetic alteration to replace his lost Essence(the money for which, I guess, he could have gotten if he sold his island) and, in becoming a technomancer, he lost all his otaku Echoes and had to re-learn Matrix immersion.
If you would like a nice juxtaposition, though, check out Puck's creepy picture from Shutdown and compare it to his sad, hands-in-his-pockets picture in Legends.

What is truly unnerving is that Icarus casually mentions that Deus is out there. This is a direct contradiction from Emergence. The God-like AIs were dead, integrated into the Matrix as a whole. That was the point of bringing about non-God like AIs. Letting them be PCs even.
To say that Deus is back should be an Earth shattering revelation which should shake everyone in their boots. Deus' abilities are unlimited in the Matrix, which is why letting him out of the Network or the SCIRE was super scary and now not only is he back, it is generally accepted he is back by everyone on Jackpoint, except maybe Snopes who still isn't quite sure.
Moreover no one is worried about it. Slamm-O! gives him a shout out. The most feared Matrix entity in all of Shadowrun, which needed two other God-like AIs to take him down, the perpetrator of one of the single greatest acts of malevolence in the history of of the world is now back from the dead and this, THIS is the first we are hearing of it.
Not the first the Sixth World is hearing of it, but the first we, the readers are.
It brings up a million questions; everything from "Are Mirage and Magaera back too?" to "What is the nature of the Resonance now that Emergence and Unwired have been ret-con'ed in a single paragraph?"
It's be like finding out, second hand "Oh, and did you know that Gengis Khan is back and this time he has a nuclear bomb?" It's big deal, a VERY big deal and deserves either a dismissal as the ramblings of that nut Icarus which everyone dismissed as crazy or a full explanation somewhere.

That and why did no one mention that Puck is British?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 05:01 AM

No one ate his cooking, so they never knew before?

Posted by: Grinder Aug 10 2011, 09:01 AM

The picture of "Agent" shows him having an obvious cyberarm that isn't mentioned in his statblock.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 10 2011, 09:10 AM

Miles Lanier is taller and weights less than Richard Villiers, yet the picture on pg.159 gives the opposite impression. Bull's picture protrays him as way too slender for a guy who's just about 2 meters tall but clocks in at 159 kilograms.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 10 2011, 11:58 AM

Even provided he was willing and had the funds: With all the stuff high-ranking Whites got he would need years to get back to full Essence, and Revitalization is something completely new in the 2070s.

Also, as with all Jackpointers (who are supposed to be on the network for the unique intel they can provide) his knowledge skills are extremely underwhelming. If memory serves, he as one of Deus' former elite soldiers, knows NOTHING about Otaku, the cult of Deus etc. pp., and knows as much about AIs in general as about Urban Brawl.


Puck's been pictured before? Got a page number for that?


Yep, that's more or less what I was thinking, too. Although I consider it an extremely stupid error on the writer's part rather than a retconn.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 10 2011, 01:44 PM

Glad you liked it.

Curiosity compels me to ask: Which entries were you "meh" about?

Posted by: Starglyte Aug 10 2011, 02:12 PM

In the shadow talk on Agent, they mention the possibility that his cyberarm might be fake.

Posted by: Starglyte Aug 10 2011, 02:27 PM

Kellen Colt is my least favorite. The only Shadowrun novel I have ever read to completion was "House of the Sun" ( I couldn't get past 100 pages for Shadowboxer). I guess her entry would be better with having read the novels. The writing is not bad, just the character herself is just not interesting to me. She seems to be to much like Frosty.

Didn't like Yankee, but this is all personal bias against the shadowtalker who provided it ( Riser is one of the Jackpointers who I hope gets a bullet, preferably while mouthing off to someone he shouldn't have). I also thought Yankee was going to be someone else, and was somewhat disappointed it was not that character.

All in all, I hope we see more full color books like this. Hopefully one detailing Tir Tairngire.

Posted by: Critias Aug 10 2011, 02:32 PM

I'm trying! Just ask Peter and Jason, I pestered 'em about being able to write one all weekend.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 04:05 PM

A lot of Kellen Colt's issues is that she was an "Everyman" Shadowrunner, able to do a little bit of everything, and came off as too "Mary Sue"ish in my mind because of that. She was a Mage that learned Decking/Hacking that learned Espionage that learned... You get the idea.

The other character that went this route was Twist (Sam Verner, former Wageslave), who was all those things as well, and sucked at all of them (Except for being a Shaman, but he burned out, and it was only in the last book of his trilogy that he was any good really), and he ended up be remembered only as a Shadowrunner with weird morals (He only killed one person. As long as you don't consider HMHVV-Infected individuals people, and it was a clear case of self-defense as well.). A lot of folks have issues with him as well, but he's too much of a butt monkey to go the other route.

Both trilogies appear to have been designed to profile and demonstrate the "Iconic" characters of Shadowrun at the time.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 10 2011, 06:15 PM

I actually like Sam Verner because he was a little bit of everything and kind of sucked at all of it. He was like a really badly written character on paper.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 08:27 PM

Kind of sucked? He did suck at everything. Hell the guy died, what, three times?

...

He got better.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 10 2011, 08:58 PM

Huh. Thought that didn`t happen in SR?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 10 2011, 10:53 PM

That was a Monthy Python Reference. A Felony worth flogging him for on most gaming tables. Not that he'd get to play, anyway, seeing how he has to GM time and time again ^^

Posted by: CanRay Aug 10 2011, 11:12 PM

Even in real life, there's death and there's death. And then there's reported as dead.

Also, part of being a shaman is having had to die. I had Pup the Dog Shaman shot in the forehead and dropped out of a helicopter. Twist suffered a similar fate, without the face-shooty or helicopter bit.That too, but with my groups it's considered par for the course rather than a torturous situation.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 11 2011, 12:00 AM

Yes, well, Puns are usually more of an offense, but monthy python is a close second ^^

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 11 2011, 04:34 AM

p. 66 of Archology Shutdown.

His icon is the guy on the right. Incidentally, Puck's description of his icon(silver hair and eyes) was the only thing that existed for a long while, and so it became generally accepted that it was how he looked like in real life, too.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 11 2011, 01:06 PM

Yeah, and it's not like people on the internet Matrix never lied about their looks...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 01:35 PM

You mean that hot 5'2" Chick with the big hooters?

...

Aw man.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 01:37 PM

Yep... That would be the one...

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 11 2011, 02:00 PM

What's odd is that that Puck, unlike every other Matrix user, has an icon that looks almost exactly like his real life form.
Fastjack can look like a giant jackhammer and Pax has her weird winged thing, yet Puck looks like a skinny kid with silver hair and eyes and, according to Legends and Corporate Guide, is a skinny kid with silver hair and eyes.

On the Matrix, everyone should lie about their looks a little, or at least their icon should be a metaphorical interpretation of their self interpretation, yet Puck is exactly as he seems; which is totally antithetical to his character.

If his icon was a silver hair waif and his real life body was a chubby, pale Eastender, that would be one thing; yet something got lost in the translation in one of the modern Sixth World's most notorious characters.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 02:05 PM

FastJack insinuated in "Into The Shadows" that one icon he uses with friends might be how he looks.

Likely it's his personal view of himself that was created during his formative years, as it's too young (He didn't look 50.). Alternatively, it could be a fake-out to make people think that's how he looks/looked and appears/appeared quite differently. He's tricky that way.

Posted by: ggodo Aug 11 2011, 02:08 PM

I think that he might be himself because he views The Matrix as 'more real' than reality. He is himself, in his natural environment.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 02:09 PM

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 11 2011, 02:10 PM

True, but that doesn't negate the thesis that is Fastjack. He's learned and wizened enough to be able to be himself, even if just a little bit.

The only interpretation of Puck is exactly as he seems, which seems against the thesis of one trying to escape his past. If anything, his icon should have changed dramatically as he switched from otaku to technomancer.

The probable reason for this is that the writer of this blurb didn't want to delve too deep into a tertiary character. My beef is that I see Puck as a Falstaff rather than a Soldier #2.

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 11 2011, 02:12 PM

No pic on 66. One on 69 with four icons in it, is that the one?

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2011, 02:23 PM

Fastjack used to look like a blurry silhouette back in ... Matrix II, I believe?
Also, technos looking like themselves in VR seems to be a popular idea, at least half the techno chars I've met subscribed to it.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 02:27 PM

FastJack has many avatars. That's the one he uses the most.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2011, 02:33 PM

Oh, btw, while we're on old matrix books and equally old matrix cowboys - where the hell is Smiling Bandit? I miss the guy.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 02:38 PM

He's around, the occasional guest on the JackPoint. Don't know why he isn't a regular, but likely due to his lifestyle and personal interests making it ineffective to be a partner in the system.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 11 2011, 02:49 PM

Yeah, he was in Street Legends, too, I believe - in Haze's bio.
Then again, he's one of the most old-school hackers, plus a brilliant scientific mind. Unless he left running behind (and his comment, if I recall correctly, away from the books right now, suggests otherwise), there's just no reason for him to to contribute more. Or there's something going on with him, like being involved with the artefacts hunt (which would make sense, I'd say).

Posted by: Sengir Aug 11 2011, 03:36 PM

IIRC, Otaku often had idealized versions of themselves as their icon, same as magicians on the astral.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 11 2011, 03:37 PM

Personal self-view can be a weird, weird thing.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 11 2011, 04:49 PM

That it can. Some people don't have a single ideolized veiw, or have one that remains constant, even if their reality changes around them.

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 05:53 PM

Not meaning to attack you, but if you truly want to minimize Essence impact of implants, check out Augmentation.


Is it one of these fics that has a link? Because I'd appreciate that link if it is found online.


Depends entirely on the murder. If you smacked down a cop, or someone 'equal', you're a tough guy. If you murdered a child, you're the punching bowl of the pedos (otherwise the lowest of the low), at least as I understand it.

My point is, the Jackpointers seem strangely okay with Puck (the 207s equivalent to Dr Mengele) around, and with Kane (who deals in sex slaves, which is a business that requires a lot of rape by itself), and those raise hardly an eyebrow. But Haze's condemnation by Pistons seemed to be mostly nodded off. That felt odd in comparison. I personally wouldn't mind if they'd hate Haze for what he did and does, but for their tolerance for people who did far worse things, even by very tolerant standards.

And ruining peoples' lives is a shadowrunner's daily business. Yeah, that poor woman committed suicide. In attitude, Riser did the exact same thing to some actress or something, and was congratulated. Okay, Attitude being the mess it is, it's not the best source to draw on, but some coherence would be nice there. And I am writing this in general, not directed at you, because as a freelancer that is not your job and I am aware of that (though, Jason? It's yours).


Not in the least. Info on Frosty is mainly found in the Harlequin adventures. She is a whole different kind of person than Kellan (whose novels aren't smong my favourites, though).


Count me one of them.

Firstly, he is an over the top sue. He has an icon that does things an Icon cannot do because he is such a special snowflake, he meets every important person in SR1/2 and is on rather good footing with them (seriously, Lofwyr praised him), and he killed two people: Wyllis HydeWhyte the Toxyc Shyman and some poor guard at Renraku who was just doing his job. Thast guilt weighed heavily on his good christian soul and made him a pacifist (and angst page upon page). Oh yes, and he is the only person (including dragons) to ever single-handedly have fought a Passion and won. Ah, did I mention that while doing this he runs a Great Ghost Dance because he is so fucking special he learns that too?

Second, he does things that should, by the rules, the intention of the rules, and the fluff, have cost him his magic. See, Dog s, above all, aithful. If Dog just ditches a person because he finds a better squeeze, a person Dog professed to love and did love, the Totem gets angry and pulls his boni. Seriously, it's in the rules up to SR4. Misbehave and daddy gives you the pddle or takes your toys away. Sam does this not once, not twice, but thrice. And Dog gives him Uber Magic that can kill Passions instead.

Thirdly, his characterisation is hideusly incoherent. So he is a Good Christian WASP as that fascist Charette likes them, and at the same time worships heathen spirits. Oh, AND he doesn't even believe in magic! And while he is a pacifist, he totally does not oppose others do the killing (and maiming, and torture) for him, which goes agaisnt the entire idea of pacifism.

charette novels are good enough action pron for adolescents, but read as an adult, I can't help but wonder whether he wove all this antisemite and white supremacist crap in knowingly or unknowingly.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2011, 06:45 PM

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=34.0 The story is a day in the life of Rory circa about 2037, and a sample of my writing circa about 2001.

I was digging around for a POV character to write my Spy Games sections with, just as Jason put out a call for new Jackpointers, and thought of him. So Rory got dusted off, I fleshed out a rough background that brought him closer to the modern day (figuring a corporate, rather than national, spy would allow for more globe-spanning adventures), and got to work. He caught on with some of the freelancers and fans, so I thought of him again (instead of my gut reaction, which was to propose Green Lucifer) for Street Legends.

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 07:21 PM

Is that a new layout at the other forums?

Hm, nice one. The self-aware terrorist (and the man between all fronts, shunned by elves and racist Inlaws alike). Is the blue eyes/green eyes thing mant to indicare he changes the eyes' color? Anyway, I like Thorn as a character. Wish he would get to write more of the upcoming equipment sections instead of the infamous duo that does it right now.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2011, 09:01 PM

Yeah, Rory changes eye color pretty often (along with skin tone, hair color, etc). When younger, I liked to kind of picture him doing it by accident from time to time (to suit his mood).

And thanks for the compliment, but he's not really the big gear discussion type of guy. He's chimed in on a few of the recent gear pdfs as a shadowtalker, but for the most part he just doesn't care about it that much. Like I tried to show in Spy Games, in his old age he's gotten crotchety about fancy new toys. To him it's the spy that makes the gear, not the gear that makes the spy (and the same holds true for runners).

Thorn writing a gear book would quickly degenerate into "Blah blah blah ultra heavy pistol blah blah blah full auto capable blah blah eight billion round magazine blah blah blah. Big deal! Who needs all that? When I was 23, I killed seven men with a five-shot holdout. I shot five of them in the brain because I know how to fucking aim, threw the gun at the next one, and strangled the third. YOU DAMNED KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 11 2011, 09:17 PM

Awesome Indeed...

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 11 2011, 09:34 PM

Agreed. Nice to have an old guy to give direction to those wannabes other then Fast Jack anyway.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2011, 09:40 PM

He's just a guy that (thanks to kind of being spoiled due to being an adept, and a lucky one at that) doesn't rely on the gadgets to get the job done. He likes guns and armor and fast cars and electronics all as much as the next guy, but to him they're all just tools. He can take 'em or leave 'em.

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 09:40 PM

One thing I'd like to see is Demitech - old, worse tech. Because as is, Shadowrun caters to people playing Ryan Mercury right now. While that might make good business sense, I'd still like to see a decent writeup of older tech.

And yeah, you're right. I'm mostly all for Mika (with frequent bitching from Ma'Fan) and Hard Exit doing the meat of these sections. Or really, ANYONE but Frohicke's bastard son and Action/grrl/. Thorn ould write about McGyvering, older tech, or shadowtalk how this could be used creatively.


No, Thorn needs to write these sections. That reminds me of the good old Warentester who used to narrate the gear sections in 2E/early 3E German-only supplements.


Okay, that reverses my opinion even further. And, uhm, aren't they? Or shouldn't they be, to a professional Runner? All my characters prefer moderately modified weaposn that can be disposed witout any tears shed, same with most other gear (obviously you are more attached to your cybernetics or foci). Reminds me of Sam (DeNeiro's character from Ronin), btw.

Posted by: Critias Aug 11 2011, 09:44 PM

Have you checked out many of the recent pdfs? Peter put together This Old Drone, Gun Heaven, and a few similar books specifically with older (but still useful) gear in mind.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 11 2011, 09:53 PM

And there was the one seado in Deadly Waves that was old tech.

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 10:10 PM

Yup, but I'd like to see that for more general tech too, like matrix gear. I'd like to see a few more commlinks, maybe alternate names for existing models, and more program and cybersuites. Rules/guideliens/stat blocks for sub-par cyber and dated military equipment like battletac. That kind of stuff. TOD and Gun Haven was nice there (The kinks and problems of those releases aside), and some of DW's ships went that direction too, whcih is good. I'd also like to see this for the vehicles most used by charactrers, though - bikes, cars, vans. Ground vehicles. There are more statted cmbat helicopters by now than there are cars. That's just wrong.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 11 2011, 10:20 PM

so . . you want SOTA Rules back?

Posted by: hermit Aug 11 2011, 10:37 PM

No, I want a way to import non-SOTA stuff from previous editions, be it by rules or conversion guidelines with example equipment. Anti-SOTA rules, if you will.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 11 2011, 10:41 PM

I have spent many, many hours reading Augmentation. If there were any Shadowrun "core" rulebook that I could not say that about, I earnestly hope that I would not have gotten this job. What options in particular are you thinking of dude? (If I were not fine with Lanier having replaced two-thirds of his essence with cyberbits, I would not have let him go into layout that way, but I never object to side conversations.)



<3

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 12 2011, 12:45 AM

None of the other Whites did.
Come to think of it, I can't think of any old school otaku whose icon was identical, or even similar, to themselves. It came with the idea of using the Matrix to escape their terrible, Dickensian lives within their tribes and so created a new reality for themselves.

It just seems odd and, from a literary standpoint, antithetical to the character of Puck.
I have no problem with a technomancer having an icon identical to his real life identity, but if he does there should be a reason why that character strays from the norm. An explanation for such a deviation. It's a neat idea and could be a really cool character.

Puck is not that character.

Posted by: sgtbarnesKY Aug 12 2011, 02:45 AM

Ok I might have missed this some where so I apologies in advance. In what book did Nadja Daviar come back in, and now Aina Dupree is dead too?? What, did I miss something in Spy Games, when did all this happen??? Oh no now I've gone cross-eyed. Really when did all this happen??

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 02:49 AM

In the book that was supposed to come out before Street Legends apparently...

Posted by: Fatum Aug 12 2011, 01:24 PM

Old stuff is fine, but really, we have more than enough of it. Where are the new super-shiny toys the megas are supposed to be throwing our way, huh?!

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 02:14 PM

Oh, like that stuff is hitting the streets any time soon.

Watch Desert Wars and drool over what you can't have.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 12 2011, 02:53 PM

But I totally can steal a prototype! Or get an early insider-only serial model!

Posted by: Fortinbras Aug 12 2011, 03:01 PM

Ooooh. Insider cereal.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 03:04 PM

Keep feeding them ideas, folks, we'll keep getting things like PDF-Only products that eventually come out in print.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 12 2011, 03:26 PM

A pdf-only release detailing SR cereal varieties?
I have nothing against it!

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 12 2011, 04:10 PM

Would luv to see a SoTA sourcebook full of cool prototypes experimental tech and magic. Nifty toys to steal for cold cash or personal use.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 12 2011, 04:27 PM

It's a novel, not a campaign log, so of course he pulled off some crazy stunts.
And as the first series novels, it is understandable that the author used it as sort of a "world tour"


So one has to be a pacifist to refuse killing people in cold blood during a B&E job? Sounds more like generally accepted (IRL) morality to me. Even among the various varieties of intentional homicide, offing someone to facilitate or cover another crime is usually considered to be particularly bad.


Yeah, that was over the top...you don't just assemble a couple of guys and do a ghost dance...


seriously, is there anything you don't manage to read an anti-anything subtone into?



@Fortinbras

Matrix explicitly mentions that an Otaku's standard icon is an "idealized version of his physical appearance"...sure, otaku like to show off with extravagant icons just as other deckers do, but there's always people who like to show off by not showing off like the others do



@Prime Mover: The announcement for Conspiracy Theories sounds a bit like that

Posted by: Mäx Aug 12 2011, 04:48 PM

SoTA pdf book is in the pipeline according to Jason.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 04:50 PM

The high level of resolution of their avatars was arrogance enough for some Otaku. Especially in those days.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 12 2011, 06:24 PM

I completely agree with everything Sengir had to say in defense of Never Deal With A Dragon.

I love that book. Step off my childhood, dude.

As I recall the sequels are in fact much less good. But I do think the "Bob Charette is a nazi" talk is totally uncalled for.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 06:30 PM

Indeed... Why is it that Godwin's Law always has to rear it ugly head, eventually? *Shakes Head*

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:01 PM

It's the Internet. You're surprised?

EDIT: I just realized something... Does Godwin's Law apply to Mel Brooks movies?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 12 2011, 07:18 PM

SPAAAAAAAAAACE JEWS!

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 12 2011, 07:34 PM

And he STILL owes us another SpaceBalls . .
He said:"If lucas does three more, i will do one more too"

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 07:38 PM

Yeah, but it will be tough to make more of a joke of Star Wars than Lucas did...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:41 PM

Mel Brooks and his family can do it.

The man made World War II a joke. DURING World War II! While fighting in it!

Posted by: Grinder Aug 12 2011, 07:46 PM

And now back to topic, please.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:53 PM

And now for something completely different.

Serrin Shamandar and his wife, their circle of lives, and the fact that they keep getting kicked about by fate. Opinions?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 12 2011, 07:55 PM

life in the 60's?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 08:14 PM

Who? Which Megacorp are they from?

Posted by: Stormdrake Aug 12 2011, 08:43 PM

What is Lofwyrs Initiate Grade?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 12 2011, 08:43 PM

not from any corp, as far as i know.
even if they are probably pretty well liked by fuchi . .

Posted by: Grinder Aug 12 2011, 08:51 PM

(Street Legends, pg.135)

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 12 2011, 09:10 PM

I've not read this entry in a while, so I might be misremembering, but I think another interpretation of this is that Puck believes that Deus is back and after him, and Icarus casually mentioned that belief. Doesn't have to be true to make a character like that spend his life looking over his shoulder.

I could be wrong here, though, since I'd have to reread the entry to be sure (and frankly, the character has never been one of my favorites, or one that I even care much about, so I haven't looked him over too carefully to begin with). Just something to think about.

Posted by: Bull Aug 12 2011, 10:45 PM

It could have been more clear, but between Slamm-0!'s flippant tone ("Hey Deus, I'll tell you where to find him!") and Snopes comment about how reports that Deus is still around are unsubstantiated both infer that Icarus is talking more about Puck's paranoia and belief that Deus survived and is after him.

That said, if anything could have survived Winternights attack... It would have been Deus. And I can full believe that a lot of Matrix regulars believe he's out there lurking still. Deus is the 2070's equivalent of the boogyman. Ask any Jackpointer to their face if they think he's dead, and they'll say of course. But get a few drinks in them, and they'll tell you about seeing or hearing something on the Matrix that didn't make sense, or admit that late at night when no one else is around, they double check their 'deck before going to bed.

Bull

Posted by: Nath Aug 12 2011, 10:51 PM

If only one thing had survived Winternight attack, Richard Villiers would manage to be that one

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 12 2011, 11:56 PM

Just got the book and skimmed through it. Why are there so many JackPointers and so few other guys? I wanted to read more on those who shape the world.
But so far the book looks sweet. Other than Aina. What the hell was that!? I read about Artifacts, but still. It's like a book tells you that the killer is the gardener, full stop. And only in the next book you will read about who's gardener he is and who is killed. Blows away all suspence.

My only complaint would be art. The picture for Agent has him with cyberarm when stats say he has no augmentations. And he has a head to big for the body. It looks awkward. But that's minor point. How could they make such awesome art for minor characters so much fuck up, pardon me, the big ones? I mean, after I looked at Villiers, I wanted to tear my eyes out. But what was seen can't be unseen. And in Worlds Without Ends Lowfyr is depicted quite passable for a human - Aina doesn't recognise himat first. If he was looking like in the book, there's no chance she wouldn't know who he is. On the other hand, Hestaby looks even pretty. And I always imagined Nadja to be blonde. Maybe because she's baltic. But that's with almost all named characters - I imagined them to be different from the pictures. Seems you can't guess all the time

I'm stealing this as quote for one character. That's awesome!

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 12:00 AM

I want to write a gear book now.

Posted by: hermit Aug 13 2011, 12:51 AM

In War! and Attitude, sad but true.


It's another case of incoherent characterisation.


The universe just hates them?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 02:16 AM

That's a lot of hate, man. They've been kicked about for generations, apparently.

'Course, we get to see what happens when SS goes wrong. SERRIN SMASH!!!

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 11:33 AM

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4410.msg65515#msg65515

and this is basically all that i find wrong with the current writing of shadowrun in one single posting . .

Posted by: Faelan Aug 13 2011, 12:18 PM

Indeed, I am particularly perplexed about how Aina Dupree is a Mary Sue. Perhaps if a Mary Sue is a character an author loves to write some seriously sick twisted near snuff flick level porn for, only to let the character narrowly escape a death, so they can live through their fate worse than death again on the morrow.

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 13 2011, 04:07 PM

You mean what happened to Aina or my attitude towards her? Hardly Aina is current writing
To be frank, I'm a bit puzzled with Meiers' reaction over there. If I wasn't sure of myself, I would have thought that maybe I spat on his grandmother's grave or something like that. Probably it's me being non-native speaker and says something dumb.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 04:13 PM

No no, your attitude is okay . .
Meiers and Neurosis on the other hand . .

Posted by: Bull Aug 13 2011, 04:43 PM

For whatever it's worth, I get James and Nuerosis' reactions, but don't necessarily share them. Even characters like Harlequin I can have fun with. Characters need to die sometimes, and it should serve the greater story. ANd in this case, I think it will. Harley will have an interesting reaction to Dupree's death, I think.

Keep in mind that anything posted to forums is the authors personal opinion, as a fan. And this opinion doesn't (and shouldn't) carry over into their work. This is why we have a line developer, and this is why things get discussed among the freelance staff behind the scenes.

Bull

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 05:01 PM

That's what I always loved about Shadowrun: The Status Quo Is Not The Rule! Things get shaken up all the time! Megas fall! Dragons die! NERPS continues to get newer, better, and with less aftertaste!

People die. It's the nature of being alive, we're all dying. It's just when and how that the question comes into play.

...

That, and how big a splash it'll be in the news.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 05:09 PM

Immortal Elf!
You!
Me!
Him!
Her!

Death is for other people . .

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 05:22 PM

So? Old age won't get us.

So many other ways to die. http://youtu.be/Nw_rbZ5kJU8.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 05:23 PM

something just occured to me:
Has ANY OTHER immortal elf bought the farm yet? O.o
Or are Dragons the only immortals that die?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 05:29 PM

That's what happens when you sleep thought things like World Wars, instead of living through them.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 13 2011, 05:31 PM

Icarus states something to the effect of "since Deus and Pax are still round, he really is in hot water now". And except for two shadowtalkers (one of whom is like "need a hand with your revenge?"), the assembled hacker luminaries don't even seem to notice...because when have mad AIs or Ex Pacis ever raised eyebrows? Since Emergence we know that everybody is totally cool on that issue...

But speaking of Emergence, maybe they're just going to pull the "surprise, nobody knew about that stuff until now"-stunt again...

@hermit

Uhm, where is the inconsistency, again?

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 13 2011, 05:43 PM

That is absolutely right. That's the point of having a developing setting - things change, and sometimes someone has to die. And I don't object to the fact that Aina died. I'm surprised to the point of shock, but what's happened - happened. Personally I feel bad for Aina. Mostly because of who she was. I never really shared her views, and I always thought that majority of her problems were her own doing. Inability to come to term with her son, for example. But I always shared a great deal of sympathy for her and what she had to go through. And one man once said, that you can laugh at village idiot or despise him, but you never kill him. But these are my feeling, no more, no less. Now I want to get Artifacts Unbound even more, and I hope the reaction to the fact would be appropriate.


And that's what I can't agree with. Firstly, and I know it from personal experience and you know too, a moderator is always a moderator. You can't leave your uniform in the dresser and become a regular Joe Citizen. The same goes for administrators and to much extent for any face. The authors of the books are still authors of the books, even in casual chit-chats, especially if they chat to their readers and more so if they chat about the books they wrote. That's my personal opinion, again, and I can't hope to bring all people to think the same, but I think the professional should keep his cool in any sitution.
Secondly, and thats my opinion again, I believe that you can't really do anything good if you don't love what you're doing. Fictional characters included.

I hope I didn't sound rude or accusing, all that is, I stress again, only my point of view.


As far as I know, Aina is the first.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 13 2011, 05:55 PM

I guess I must be going into politics or something, because I actually just posted a public apology. It's over on the official forums if you'd like to read it, chummer. : )



If you're right, I'm definitely going to have to post less to avoid any future slip-ups.

I'm still too used to having fan-position leniency. When you're a fan, you're allowed to say "Aina Dupree was a dumb character", and with all the privileges of being a writer, you lose that right. In any case, even if that were my opinion, I hope you can understand it would not detrimentally effect my work. I have too much respect for the SR universe for that.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 06:01 PM

Yes, i actually read and allready answered . . sorry, but that blatant arrogance and disregard of what can be considered pretty important to the setting/universe sent me flying off my handle (is that correct?)
and yes, i actually do forget about the personal opinion/writer stuff too . . mea culpa x.x

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 13 2011, 06:50 PM

That's still my opinion, you have the full right to disagree with it!

Posted by: Sengir Aug 13 2011, 06:54 PM

The second half is what is important to me: Important characters should die on occasion, because otherwise the story gets increasingly unbelievable. I finished The Passage a couple of weeks and go, and towards the end was simply annoyed by the constant miraculous escapes and _surprising_ returns of MIAs. Important characters should even fear a completely unspectacular death, in reality most important people don't die in heroic rear guard actions, either.
However, if somebody with the clout of an IE heading an AA corp dies, it should have a major effect on the story. You can't remind players of possible consequences should they go around killing everyone if big figures die and nothing happens.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 13 2011, 07:47 PM

It was not my intention to imply her death would not have appropriate in-universe consequences (it will).

Honestly, tl;dr it was a stupid, stupid comment made with 0 forethought and nothing'd make me happier than if we could just forget it.

Posted by: Critias Aug 13 2011, 07:56 PM

It does. Again, a few passages of text just got released in the wrong order, due to some publication issues with a couple products that were supposed to be out before Street Legends, that are coming out after it, now.

Aina's not quietly dying to lung cancer and prompting Caimbeul to stop smoking, just before a The More You Know! logo flies across the screen or something. It's some big, and some badass, and some important shit that's going down, dealing with lots of the big names and magical power players and stuff. She doesn't go quietly in bed, she's right in the thick of some major events.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 08:25 PM

Good to hear. Can't wait...

Posted by: Nath Aug 13 2011, 09:15 PM

Voicing it his okay, but in that case I don't think it helps explaining why it happened.

With my small experience as a freelancer, I'd say authors should stay away from characters and plots they dislike. SR universe is large enough for that. If they try to get rid of them, it will be at the expense of those (players and possibly other authors) who enjoyed it. Of course, sometimes you can't avoid it. If someone really wanted to write on the Draco Foundation and Nadja Daviar, Aina Dupré was standing in the way.

On the other hand, writing about characters simply because you like the result in your average "Mary-Sue" fan fiction. In the end, the only good reason that can be to write something is : "because it makes a good story". If it doesn't, it doesn't worth writing anything in the first place. Unless, of course, the company really needs one hundred pages of anything to release for GenCon

I should know, a good part of the work on Shadows of Europe was about deciding what we would simply ignore from the old France sourcebook. And as a gamemaster, I'm still struggling on how to make a great story of Esprit Industries takeover by Aztechnology/Dassault. That was my pet corp, but still, I'll try to seize the opportunity to make it a memorable event (and show what Lofwyr chessgame can be like).

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 13 2011, 09:28 PM

Not to pass the buck, but I have to date written exactly 0 words about Aina Dupree. I specifically stayed away from all of the Street Legends that I was not a big fan of either; in that case, though, it was more a question of not feeling confident enough in my familiarity with the subject matter to take a crack at them.

But I know this response was probably not fully necessary, as not every comment everyone makes is necessarily directed at me personally. : )

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 13 2011, 09:39 PM

Yea those old euro books had a certain level of "better then core SR, simply because"...

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 09:53 PM

because we're german.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2011, 10:13 PM

'31 is drawing nearer, we'll get even for everything yet.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 10:33 PM

no comprende

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2011, 10:45 PM

31? First Euro-War? Still nothing?

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 13 2011, 10:46 PM

I think it was a Shadowrun reference.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 10:53 PM

Why would anyone expect people to pick up on those here?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 10:56 PM

ah that.
sorry, i am really bad with remembering dates and numbers in general <.<

Posted by: hermit Aug 13 2011, 11:16 PM

Given that he brought us the Nadia, apparently ... well, the word we're looking for is "idiot".


Not to disrespect wny of what you say, Bull, but that sentence makes my eyes bleed. But yes, it sums up perfectly what a Line Developer should do, if not what Jason does.

Suffice to say, the Line Dev's job should begin with choosing freelancers to contribute.


Read the dog totem's descriptions, think of the number of mwomen Twist ditches. Consider the number of pacifists who embed themselves with the US special forces. And that's not even beginning with the absolutly bizarre excuse for dumping Tsung for Hart (who, by the way, isn't quite a pacifist), or his willingness to sacrifice dozens of people to maybe cure his sister. Very pacifist thing, those human sacrifices.


Did Meiers have any part in writing Artifacts Unbound?


Of coruse, killing off major characters too frequently, or illing the wrong major characters, isn't quite a good idea either. Take George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire as an example. This series is liek the most lethal fantasy novel, ever. There are more survivors in the 40K heresy novels than there. To the point where there just isn't any character left I care for. They're all either dead or so fucked up by the horrors they were put through I just shrug about them.

Shadowrun is going the same direction, only a lot less elaboratly planned (though admittedly at a faster pace than one book every seven years).

And seriously, Aina Dupree is more annoying than Nadia "luscious brown nipples" Daviar? Is there some reason behind that, or is this just a dismissive comment because you felt entitled to them?


And that's really not what I see happening at CGL.


And then came Attitude and not la terre Lakota de France is international canon, too (see Cree&Dido for details).

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 11:16 PM

A German, bad at math? Who'd have thunk it? Next you'll be telling me you don't overengineer everything, Stahl.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 11:25 PM

*looks around*
dude, i am sitting here, with 6 computers in arms reach ^^
math just is an asshole <.<
never been good with numbers of any kind ._.
if i weren't lazy as fuck, i'd be speaking 5 languages fluent by now instead i guess . .
i am more of a DO kind of guy than a THINK kind of guy i'm afraid x.x
and i have the sense of direction edge. if i listen to my feet, they tell me where i am and where to go.
i have only got lost ONCE in my life. and that was because they tore down buildings that i expected to still be there ;_;
my brain is just wired a bit different, i guess O.o

Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 11:31 PM

This is Dumpshock, the Internet, and People Like Us, Stahl.

We're all wired differently. It's what makes us such good company here.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 11:32 PM

i'd drink to that!

Posted by: Nath Aug 14 2011, 09:03 AM

We keep talking abut Dupré and Daviar, and it's like everybody carefully avoid to talk about Ryan Mercury

There really is in southern France a track of land the owner donated to the Lakota Nation in 1991. France Sourcebook only make it much larger. I don't know if the Lakota Republic care for it though. And considering US bashing have been even more popular in France these days than French bashing can be in the US, it wouldn't be surprising to have French NGO welcoming tribal people fleeing the Reeducation and Relocation Act between 2009 and 2017.

The way Attitude mentions the Lakota-French fictional character doesn't say anything about a Lakota Land in France. People who know about it may link the two. But those who don't will just think he has one Lakota and one French parent. Those who don't want the Lakota Land to exist in their game should simply do the same. Maybe the author never reads France and simply is a fan of actress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karina_Lombard.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 14 2011, 02:15 PM

Dog does not leave people behind, that's different from ending a non-platonic relationship. Also, dogs are not exactly known for being monogamous...


Already addressed this:

Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 02:36 PM

Imagine how bad it would be if he had been an (Alley) Cat Shaman?

Posted by: Sengir Aug 14 2011, 02:43 PM

Like sleeves of wizard cat shaman

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Aug 14 2011, 03:42 PM

As a writer, I stayed away from plenty of characters and plots I disliked, so I agree with Nath on this. And the Line Developer should always be there to steer the writing towards a good story instead of any writer's personal feelings on a character or idea. I know I wanted to kill many an immortal elf, but unless I had a damn good story reason for it, I never even brought it up, because it'd be silly.

Though I also think Shadowrun's metaplot has gotten so tangled and massive that it's getting very hard for the writers to avoid characters and plots they don't like. I know I had trouble with it towards the end and found myself avoiding more writing opportunities than I'd take because I didn't want to touch this idea or the other.



Otaku do lie about their looks a little, but it's a self-idealization still firmly rooted in their physical appearance. I know Puck's picture in Street Legends is actually very close to how I always imagined him and I think Renraku Arcology: Shutdown's authors probably imagined him similarly. I know it matches up pretty closely to descriptions Dave Hyatt gave me way back when we were working on Brainscan. I always imagined real-life Puck as being paler, skinnier, and having a constant nervous edge that came from growing up in the Squeeze in London, but otherwise looking similar to his icon. And though it's not mentioned in Street Legends, it was Dave that originally came up with Puck's attraction to the ocean in a piece of fiction that got cut from Brainscan, though I resurrected the idea of it in the fiction for System Failure.

Posted by: Troyminator Aug 15 2011, 05:02 AM

Amen, Brother!

Posted by: Troyminator Aug 15 2011, 06:05 AM

Grandpa, is that you?

Posted by: Troyminator Aug 15 2011, 06:08 AM

What does SOTA mean?

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 15 2011, 06:36 AM

State of the Art
These are (useless, funkilling ) Rules for degradation of Programs and Equipment
Something we call Hartwurst in Germany if used excessively



He who won't dance with Hartwurst
Medicineman

Posted by: hermit Aug 15 2011, 07:39 AM

It's not like he remained friends with Tsung. But I suppose you can rationalise that, too.


And it's as wrong as when you first wrote it. If you are a pacifist, you will not work in an environment where shooting people to cover up your crimes is an accepted and occasionally necessary strategy to solve problems on the job. Or, at the very least, you will try to prevent it. And you certainly will not engage in large-scale sacrificial magic to maybe cure your sister.

But yeah, you go on rationalising. I think I'm done here.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 15 2011, 10:47 AM

Repeat after me: He. Is. No. Pacifist.

Is it so hard to get that someone who refuses to kill someone for pleasure, for sexual gratification, out of greed or otherwise base motives, by stealth or cruelly or by means that pose a danger to the public or in order to facilitate or to cover up another offence (German penal code for murder) does not automatically have to subscribe to the belief that war and violence are unjustifiable and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means (Oxford)?


@Demonseed: Looks like I also read too much into things, I always considered the story about Puck's beach retreat a nod to Neuromancer...

Posted by: Grinder Aug 15 2011, 10:55 AM

Hermit, Sengir: play nice.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 15 2011, 02:01 PM

So, in Germany, killing someone defending yourself is not murder?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 02:06 PM

Well, isn't it true that in (some places in) the US, there is an allowance for lethal violence, if you are in the defence of a third party?
So, is it so hard to believe other places might have reasonable allowances?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 15 2011, 02:07 PM

by law, technically, no, it's not. that's legalese for you . .

Posted by: Prime Mover Aug 15 2011, 02:10 PM

Did the Moonlight Thorns serve Lugh Surehand? I "remember" seeing that revealed somewhere but now I can't find it.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 15 2011, 03:01 PM

Yep...always priceless to see the look on peoples' faces when they learn that in the land of the trigger-happy cowboys*, self-defence can get you on death row.

As per http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P32, any action which is necessary to end an imminent and unlawful attack on oneself or others is legal. Note that this attack does not even have to be against the person, "defensible legal goods" also include stuff like your property and freedom of person.
And even if you used more force than necessary, the attack was not imminent, or it was not illegal, you might get of the hook: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#StGBengl_000P32 states that someone acting out of fear or confusion will not be punished (though it technically remains illegal).

PS: What's also often confusing (and leading to crappy comparisons between muder rates) is that the German definition of "murder" is far narrower than elsewhere. The "default offence" for intentional homicide is manslaughter (>5 years, life in severe cases), only if one of the "murder motives" I quoted in response to hermit is met does the defendant get a free upgrade to murder (and life).

*: For those who don't get it

Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:03 PM

Yes, be good little victims and let the nice criminals break into your home, steal your stuff, rape your family, and then kill you themselves. Because the Police are there to protect you, so you don't have any reason, or right, to protect you and yours.

*Sighs* Same in Canada.

OK, edging on politics, I know, but I really, really, REALLY couldn't keep quiet.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 15 2011, 03:15 PM

Oh no, we are SO allowed to hurt anybody coming into our home whom we did not invite . .
We just have to prove it. Technically, even cops are not allowed in without a search varrant (safe for the damn stupid imminent danger clause).
Yes, we can hurt even cops who try to come in, if we do not want them in there.
If i tell a copper without any search warrant no, and he puts his foot into my door, i can crush that foot with my door to get him out and technically it'S completely okay by law . .

Posted by: Grinder Aug 15 2011, 03:19 PM

Back to topic, please.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:38 PM

OK, my bad, I'll shut up. Still had to say it.

Anyhow, we got some of the JackPointers in the PDF 10 JackPointers, and we got some here. Think we'll see the rest?

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 15 2011, 03:41 PM

It's a possibility.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 04:34 PM

Hartwurst?

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 15 2011, 04:49 PM

Funny how it is always the sociopathic monster that get paraded, when most crimes are crimes of desperation.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 15 2011, 05:06 PM

It's complicated:
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Hartwurst_(Rollenspieltheorie)
basically, germany only role playing slang . .

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 15 2011, 06:27 PM

Which of the 10 jackpointers is in the book?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 06:40 PM

Baka Dabura, Ecotope, Fianchetto, Kay St. Irregular, Lei Kung, Lyran, Man-of-Many-Names, Orbital DK, Riser, and Turbo Bunny are in 10 Jackpointers, and Haze, Ma'Fan, Puck, Rigger X, Mika, Sticks, Thorn, Hannibelle and Winterhawk are in Street Legends (I may have missed one or two that I'm not 100% sure are Jackpointers), and to include another, we had Kane in Vice.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 15 2011, 06:49 PM

Just as the last tidbit on this matter: In dubio pro reo...

@TJ: "Hartwurst" means extremely detailed descriptions by the GM which unfortunately leave little or no room for the players to actually imagine or do something. For example, the players can't act out what they do when setting up a camp for the night, the GM tells them they are eating cured sausage (the eponymous Hartwurst)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 06:57 PM

Ahhh... Thanks...

Posted by: hermit Aug 15 2011, 07:53 PM

So you're saying he just thinks he is? Because he refers to himself as such repeatedly. But then we can probably agree, though we won't on author's intent.


Between 10 Jackpointers and Street Legends, apart from Kane and Jack (who really, really should have been in the Legends), who is missing? Netcat? Hackbaby?


Not with stats, IIRC?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 08:12 PM

No stats, and the info wasn't what you'd call concise. Even Kane thought they were rather lacking.

Of course, they could publish all that he did (A whole trilogy of books in and of itself, likely), and he'd still go, "But they missed..."

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 08:49 PM

Well, as far as game stats, there aren't any in 10 Jackpointers, either. But they do have some relevant file stats. You are right about it being kind of lacking on Kane, though.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 15 2011, 09:59 PM

Nobody has a file on Jack cause he's Jack.

Posted by: Nath Aug 15 2011, 10:04 PM

Samantha Villiers used to have a short file on Fastjack, which featured in Target: Matrix. He didn't even seem to take offense

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 15 2011, 10:11 PM

Because if that's all somebody with the name VILLIERS can find out, then that's the MAXIMUM ANYBODY can find out . .

Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 12:05 AM

That's because that file was pointed out, became a target, then became a memory.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 16 2011, 02:17 PM

That Wiki is so lame and soooo wrong
Hartwurst means that you have to write down every single peace of equipment,(down to the last Bullet, how many Cigarettes you have in your pack ,how much water is left in what kind of Bottle etc) that you also have to be exact in writing off your meals, Ammo, how much water you drank,etc.
Its called Hartwurst because you had to write down how many slices of Your Sausage(Hartwurst or normal Wurst) or Bread were used that evening , (hope You get the Meaning )
Its a waste of Time (ImO) if you spent too much time with logistics instead of Roleplaying.

HokaHey
Medicineman

Posted by: Grinder Aug 16 2011, 02:28 PM

Why not use this definition:

Otherwise

Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 02:36 PM

Logistics have a place in RPGs (I was the "accountant" for my Star Wars Privateer campaign), but even that is anal, man.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 16 2011, 02:52 PM

Hartwurst is not the
@TJ: "Hartwurst" means extremely detailed descriptions by the GM which unfortunately leave little or no room for the players to actually imagine or do something. For example, the players can't act out what they do when setting up a camp for the night, the GM tells them they are eating cured sausage (the eponymous Hartwurst)
Hartwurst is the extensive Logistic that is used and when it takes more time to write down or off every little peace of equipment instead of using this time to Roleplay and have Fun(maybe its a "German Problem" ? I don't know)

Logistics are important and I don't mind using it at all, but when its overapplied(is that the right Word ?) then it turns into Hartwurst(at least that is the Hartwurst I know of and the expression that I use)
....aren't we a little Offtopic ?


with a slightly Offtopic Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 16 2011, 02:54 PM

Unless you are playing a mad max-like campaign where every piece of gear counts.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 16 2011, 02:59 PM

If you say so.

Case closed, back to topic please.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 16 2011, 02:59 PM

So how many inconsistencies can we find in Street Legends vs. previous published background on these characters? I noticed two big ones on Kia. In SL he's a he and a former corp exec who is presumably a college grad. Unfortunately, in Attitudes a piece authored by Kia describes himself as a high school dropout, and one of the inset boxes has a Johnson addressing him as "Ms. Kia."

Oops.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 16 2011, 03:02 PM

Or in Hollow Earth where you explore the Inner Earth,or in a Fantasy Campaign trying to cross a Desert
but that is something different ! Here lack of equipment is/can become part of the Plot. That can never be a Hartwurst.
its only Hartwurst if its not really necessary and a "funkiller"

with the last offtopic Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Grinder Aug 16 2011, 03:05 PM

You better do.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 16 2011, 03:06 PM

Do you have a page reference for that?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 03:21 PM

No Ooops. Obviously two different people. After all, I am sure there are a lot of 'Runners who use street names modeled after Vehicle Manufacturing Companies.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 16 2011, 04:28 PM

...on Jackpoint.

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 16 2011, 04:30 PM

Attitude Page 34: "I skipped out on high school, but I love watching those old flatvids about the high school jocks." Attitude Page 30: "Ms. Kia:"

Posted by: EKBT81 Aug 16 2011, 04:34 PM

I'm not familiar with the piece of text in question. But even if they were the same guy, I'd take anything a shadowrunner says about his own past with a grain of salt. It's not like they don't have any motivation to lie about their past or misdirect others.

The Ms Kia might be explained with a Mask spell or a misleading matrix persona.

Posted by: EKBT81 Aug 16 2011, 04:34 PM

-double post-

Posted by: Slithery D Aug 16 2011, 04:37 PM

There is a mention that in SL that Kia prefers matrix meets, and that IS consistent with the text boxes in Attitude.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 04:45 PM

I'm not sure how common Kia is as a name. But Suzuki is apparently fairly common: A famous ecologically minded scientist in Canada is named Dr. David Suzuki, CC, OBC, Ph.D., and I don't think he has anything to do with Suzuki Kabushiki-Kaisha.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 16 2011, 05:04 PM

Not sure if Kia as a company is named after its founder, in the way Suzuki or Ford is.

edit: a quick wiki check indicates it being a TLA...

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kia_Motors

Posted by: EKBT81 Aug 16 2011, 05:08 PM

The car company's name doesn't seem to derive from a family. From their webpage:



However, there are people with "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia" as a first name, so it may very well have nothing at all to do with the car manufacturer.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 16 2011, 05:16 PM

....oO(and I thought Kia means Killed in Action....,Boy was I wrong)

with a Thoughtfull Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Bull Aug 16 2011, 05:23 PM

I can't tell you about the High School drop-out thing (But always take anything a runner says in character with a grain of salt), but Kia is listed as a Human Male in the freelancer Jackpointer database. So the "Ms. Johnson" thing is either a different Kia (Unlikely, though it *is* a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-Prize for it), Kia adopting a famel persona for his online meet (THe most likely explanation), or simply a typo that got missed somewhere along the line (Easy enough, especially since till that point Kia hadn't gotten written up).

BTW, someone was asking how many Jackpointers there were... My current count is 61 Jackpointers. There are also at least 38 unique Helix (German version of Jackpoint) members (Plus some Jackpoint members as well), though the list we have is outdated, so they may have added more since. Not sure if Helix has a "closed" membership like Jackpoint, or is more open like Shadowland was, so has more rotating membership.

Bull

Posted by: Mäx Aug 16 2011, 06:42 PM

According to it's Target MAtrix Write up, Helix is an open datahaven like the shadowland was, second biggest after Denver Nexus.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 16 2011, 06:42 PM

If you find any for Martin de Vries, let me know so I can make sure not to make that mistake again in future....

Posted by: Bull Aug 16 2011, 08:28 PM

Right. But that was almost 15 years ago, in game time. (ANd hell, 10+ real time).

According to the info I have, it was prominently used in the SOX write up. I believe it's been used in the newer German books as well. Not being able to read German, I'm SOL when it comes to first hand knowledge of the German Line, unfortunately. So I'm not sure if the Helix was re-purposed to be more of a closed system like Jackpoint with the SR4 revamp or not.

I imagine it still is a normal style Data Haven, but one of the Germans here can probably fill us in.

Bull

Posted by: Bull Aug 16 2011, 08:29 PM

Well, Martin is a pretty pretty princess, he's said to wear a pink tu-tu most of the time, and he sparkles in the sun.

Oh, and he rides his vampiric war-moose everywhere he goes.

Bull

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 16 2011, 08:53 PM

Dammit. I knew I forgot something....

Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 09:01 PM

That's KIA. Note the capitalization.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 17 2011, 01:58 AM

Meh. I considered that the character might have been named Kia based on the same interpretation.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 17 2011, 12:27 PM

One of the Germans reporting for duty

The login page of SOX said this was posted in the new VIP section in the Helix, because of too many new posters flooding the open network. Nice sideswipe through the fourth wall

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 03:17 PM

I was wondering why the fourth wall had paint scrapings and a dent in it...

Posted by: Bull Aug 17 2011, 03:40 PM

Cool. SOX was a what, several years ago or more now? Have they continued to use a mostly closed pool of posters for the Helix since then, ala Jackpoint?

Thanks for the reply! We have a couple German Freelancers in the CGL Discussion Pool (AAS, and at least one other I think). I should pester them about updating the German information. Though in AAS' case, not sure I want to distract him from doing artwork for me

Bull

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2011, 04:00 PM

And you certainly don't want to distract him from working on the next germany only book either

Posted by: Stormdrake Aug 17 2011, 04:38 PM

Just got done reading Street Legends and had a question. Did the writers change Lugh Silverhand into a regular elf rather than an immortal elf? I am running the artifact series of encounters so I know immortal elves are still in the game but as he is listed he seems a little underpowered for one of the immortal jerk crowd, lol.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 05:05 PM

Everything is written in-universe, so sometimes they get things wrong.

From the writer's point of view, this is on purpose.

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 17 2011, 05:07 PM

They also didn't include his immunities that he's supposed to have as an immortal elf (age, pathogens, toxins, diseases). So if a person wasn't up on their metaplot for Shadowrun, they'd have no idea that Lugh Surehand was an immortal elf at all.

Posted by: Stormdrake Aug 17 2011, 05:22 PM

I get that it is an in universe piece but the stats are for the GM and as they don't list that info it kinda makes it wrong info. I can addd it no problem but as I paid 25 bucks I would like the GM information to be correct.

Having said that I do like the write up (fluff) on all of the characters. Gives a better handle on how the character has acted in the past and could behave in the future.

Posted by: Nath Aug 17 2011, 06:03 PM

I have a hard time believing it myself, but I have yet to find any actual mention of the existence immortal elves in Shadowrun (let alone rules) since Threats, in 1996. Since, only lately had Dawn of the Artifacts: Darkest Hour described Ehran as an "Immortal Elf".

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2011, 06:35 PM

How many elfs have been documented as dying from natural causes?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2011, 06:39 PM

Well, i say for elfs blunt trauma and high velocity lead poisoning should be natural cause . .

Posted by: Nath Aug 17 2011, 06:59 PM

The oldest "regular" elves and dwarves just got past their 60, which is a bit early to "die of old age", even for human. Spike babies may be as old as 85 (Liam O'Connor was born in 1987 according to Tir na nOg), but it's not clear there would be enough of them around to make significant statistics.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2011, 07:06 PM

So in essence, there is no medical way at present to tell a immortal elf from a mortal one in good health.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Aug 17 2011, 07:46 PM

That would be correct, sir.

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 17 2011, 07:50 PM

So for all we know ol' Surehand can be pulling one epic con job? Unless those pointy ears have some magical ritual or other to test the "claim", that is...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 07:50 PM

Coroners put that down as "Suicide" depending on where they were found. Less paperwork.

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 17 2011, 07:59 PM

Actually, I checked my old Threats copy, and it says that some of the higher-ups in the Seelie Court and in Tir Tairngire had developed a way to test for the immortality gene in elves.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2011, 08:13 PM

OK, i'll let that count ^^

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 08:14 PM

Unfortunately, they forgot to share such research with us mere mortals.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2011, 08:20 PM

well, the other immortals probably simply know/remember him from the 4th age . .

Posted by: Fatum Aug 17 2011, 08:23 PM

And why would they.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 08:51 PM

No Doubt...
As for remembering him from the 4th Age; He may not have been born then. But he could be a Spike Baby from 300-400 Years ago, and still be an Immortal Elf. Just because he may be Immortal, it does not mean he ahs been around for 10,000 Years or so.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 09:45 PM

Also, whose to say that they actually all know one another? It's a big planet, and even when working behind the scenes during the Fifth World, it's still a big planet.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 09:52 PM

Indeed it is. What, a few hundred Immortal Elves, at best, against the Massed population of 6 Billion? Not likely to cross paths very often at all, unless they knew each other to begin with.

Posted by: Nath Aug 17 2011, 10:03 PM

The number rather was a few hundred millions during the Middle Age, and maybe ten millions at the beginning of the Fifth Age. Plus, for those who are Caucasian, it kinda limits the area they may come from.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 10:27 PM

Or African, or Australian (I know there's one of those at least), or Asian, or...

EDIT: Damnit, now I want to make an Inuit Immortal Elf just to screw with people.

Posted by: Nath Aug 17 2011, 10:32 PM

What I mean was, regarding the original discussion, Lugh Surehand doesn't look like an Inuit.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2011, 10:53 PM

Captain Obvious saves the original discussion again! *grins* ^^