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Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 5 2011, 03:20 PM

This is similar to my thread on drones. I know summoning spirits is an important element of effective Shadowrun play, but how do you utilize it most effectively?

So, here are my questions.

What spirits are best for which common tasks?

Is there any tradition that has a truly standout spirit list?

What sort of tricks are available to get the most utility out of summoning, binding, etc?

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 5 2011, 04:07 PM

The short version:
Spirits of Man are very blatantly the best type of spirit overall. There are niche uses for other spirit types, but Man brings almost every utility power you care about and is also really good at fighting. How they roll is with Innate Spell (Stunbolt).

To be good at Summoning, you don't actually need a whole lot of dice. Spirits roll Force, you roll Magic+Summoning+Specialization+Foci bonuses + possibly Mentor bonus. What you need is a high Drain soak, because the damage you take is their hits x2, so it is really spiky - F5 spirits will sometimes zap you for 6S for daring to summon them.

Very broadly useful spirit powers: Concealment (hide like whoa), Search (find things like whoa), Movement (go places like whoa), Fear (very hard to resist, since it's just straight Willpower, no Counterspelling or anything). Magical Guard (lets the spirit provide counterspelling for your team; you can teamwork counterspelling which is cool).

Good idea: If you don't need a big spirit for something particular, you should have a low-force spirit hanging out with the standing order "if somebody gets into a fight with us, help out." You can always dismiss it for a bigger spirit.

Type by type:
Man: Win and awesome.
Fire: Good at killing people with Engulf + Elemental Aura (Fire); this makes its melee attacks do damage like whoa. Also flies.
Air: More utility than Fire and hits slightly better with high Agility, also flies faster. Basically fire but better.
Water: It has Weather Control, but other than that is overshadowed by other types.
Earth: crap
Beast: more crap
Plant: oddball spirit type. Plant spirits have Magical Guard, Concealment, Movement, Search and Fear, and are hella tough, but they have trouble attacking with anything other than Fear. Basically, they bring all the utility powers to the yard, and are extremely hard to kill. The only real drawback they have is that with their low agility and no flying, if you want offense that isn't Fear they don't bring it very well. Silence is niche but nifty.
Task: Win and awesome for utility because of the "Any technical or physical skill" thing. Fail and suck for everything else.
Guidance: Divining but otherwise rather meh.
Guardian: Oddball spirit type. Guardian spirits are decidedly meh at fighting normally, but they can come with any Combat skill. Carry around a Guardian Spirit Care Package of some armor and a machine gun, and you have a very solid combatant... but the gear doesn't go with it when it dematerializes, which is a weakness.

Traditions: Voodoo just very blatantly has the best spirit selection.

Posted by: squee_nabob Aug 5 2011, 04:23 PM

EDIT: Ninja’d by Umaro, but I’m still going to post this because he's a ninja

I am not an expert on spirits, and my friend UmaroVI is (so if he corrects me, I default to him since he plays a mage), but here is my understanding:

Materialization and Possession are fairly balanced in that Possession mages can grab channeling and compensate for a low magic (because they have ware or chose not to buy it up) with the spirit’s magic, and replace their spellcasting with the spirits (if man). Possession is obvious however. Materialization mage and a Materialization Spirit together are better than the self-possessed mage because they get to attack twice and the mage isn’t dual natured all the time. Figure out which one you are though, as they differ. Low force possession spirits are better than low force materialization spirits (because they can possess melee weapons for bonuses or corpses). High Force possession spirits will run into augmented maximum caps while materialization spirits will not.

In terms of kicking ass:

Guardian – if you are willing to give it gear it will kick a lot of ass, it does require more work.

Man – Nearly as good, but will be spamming your attack spells (like stun bolt) instead of using an AR

Air is very useful

Fire does not provide concealment but is fully capable of murdering people.

Water is slightly less good at murdering people (I think this is due to accident, energy aura, and energy attack being optinal powers for it and it has no way to get fear)

Earth and Plant spirits come in at the middle of the list because they are just average (not bad)

Beast Spirits are down here being sad, they have fear and can get concealment, noxious breath or search, so it’s not that they suck, they are just less good. All spirits are decent at pwning people so it’s a relative thing.

Task and Guidance spirits are for niche activities rather than pwning people, but are quite useful.

Make sure you have 1 good battle sprite then the rest are just for utility. Voodoo has the best Spirit list.

For using them: I’ve seen Fear, Concealment, Fear, Movement, Fear, Search, Fear, Engulf, Fear, Noxious Breath, Fear, and Innate Spell all used to great effect. Know what your spirits do.

Also, getting your spirits to assense someone is usually better than doing it yourself.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 5 2011, 08:09 PM

Lesson one: Never summon anything bigger than your head.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 6 2011, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the info, guys. Very informative.

Posted by: Mardrax Aug 6 2011, 02:57 AM

Why would these two be the only ones able to fly? I thought this fell under the general purview of spirits may look like wtuff, but really aren't" handwaving for every spirit?
Do spirits actually have movement speeds laid out somewhere?

Posted by: Lanlaorn Aug 6 2011, 03:12 AM

Yes, right in the boxes with all their other stats.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Aug 6 2011, 03:15 AM

They used to all be able to fly in older editions and can still do so on the astral, but in SR4, only air and fire can fly. Spirit movements are on page 302-303 of SR4A. I believe none of the ones in Street Magic can fly either.

Posted by: Hound Aug 6 2011, 07:24 AM

yeah it's kind of weird, because the rules for free spirits state that, because spirits are not physical beings, they can automatically fly. Yet not all the spirit types can fly, and they all have different speeds.

Posted by: Sephiroth Aug 6 2011, 12:43 PM

It's only the difference between flying and floating. ALL materialized spirits can move in 3 dimensions, unhindered by gravity, even a spirit of earth, but only spirits of air and fire can actually FLYYY and have the skill to "sprint" and whatnot when flying.

Posted by: Hida Tsuzua Aug 6 2011, 03:32 PM

Looking around a bit more, all spirits don't care about gravity (SR4A p. 186). However most spirits that aren't fire or air stay close to the ground. I'm not sure if I consider normal metahuman speeds (30kmph) to be merely "floating". Does this mean that spirits of the earth can just hover dramatically several inches off the ground if they feel like it? Does that mean they can run up buildings but merely prefer to take the stairs? Can they punch planes out of the sky?

Honestly, if all spirits can fly but just don't feel like it most of the time, then they really do have flight because their summoner will remind them of their ability to fly. On the other hand, being a flying dude isn't the auto-win button it often is in some games since everyone has a gun.

Edit- I'm very meh on the flight means they have the flight skill! A force 12 fire spirit can almost double his speed if he spends 2 simple actions for flying. He also could just use movement for x12 speed for a complex and it stays up. Or he could astral and travel 5000m for two complex actions. Having that skill isn't that important.

Posted by: pbangarth Aug 7 2011, 12:29 AM

Flying is a Skill, just as Running is. All spirits can move in three dimensions. Only those with the Flying Skill can increase their speed the way Running Skill can increase one's speed on the ground.

Posted by: longbowrocks Aug 7 2011, 07:26 AM

Hollows are pretty good, but Don Kanonji probably disagrees.

Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 7 2011, 08:04 AM

I disagree with the Guidance-Spirit. It is VERY good.

It pretty much has access to a metamagic (One of the most gamechanging/gamebreaking even). And has straight up the best engulf (Stun damage, no armor possible.)

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 7 2011, 02:13 PM

Divination is the reason to use it. The engulf is in theory good, but its low agility means in practice, not really. The extra dice a Fire or Air spirit rolls help more, and it's not hard for a decently large spirit to kill people plenty dead already.

Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 7 2011, 02:58 PM

Ah and that... i find untrue (Well, depending on how big your head is anyway.)

Through the way the overall powerlevel is rising with spirits i found that being just incredible ballsy with summoning/binding, willing to use edge and prepared some security, the RETURNS for that risk are steadily rising.

Using a Force 3 spirit isn't THAT good (even though he can/might crack a low-risk situation... but you could probably do without it anyways. Rise it to 4: okay, 5: Whoa, nice. 6: AMAZING. And from that one Spirits become a "Get out of any situation but social per service"-card.

While a Force 6 spirits can pretty much go toe-to-toe with any usual enemy, you can assume a Force 8 one can take a whole group without fail. The spirit power are even worse. They seem to be scaled to be risky but worth it at force 3... unbeatable at force 6. And it goes HIGHER.

Mindcontrol: Spirits. Instant incapacitation: Spirits. Extra-combatant on level of equipped and good beginner samurai: Spirit. Debuffing: Spirit. Become near undetectable (if you have moderate stealth): Spirit.

I might by a bit cynical about that all, since i am gm for a group with a pixie mage (VERY good at summoning). But yeah, she does overall more damage than the whole other team, can jump over most legwork/detective stuff with use of Claivoyance/Mindcontrol/Suggestion/Memory alteration and Mind probe.

A good summoner is his own team. (Everything but certain high-society, matrix, and social problems can be solved by spirits, their powers and a bit of added magic.)

Posted by: CanRay Aug 7 2011, 03:08 PM

Sorry, I mistyped: "Never summon anything bigger than your ego."

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 7 2011, 07:39 PM

Only one Bleach comment since I started this thread, even with the description being what it is? It's almost like these people aren't even nerds...

Summerstorm: I believe CanRay was quoting an old webcomics ad. Dork Tower's advertising contained that line, at some point.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 8 2011, 03:50 AM

I don't think there are ANY mages in SR capable of that.

Posted by: DMiller Aug 8 2011, 03:54 AM

Actually I think they are all capable of that, as everything will be smaller than their ego.



Edited to add smiley (not trying to be rude).

-D

Posted by: pbangarth Aug 8 2011, 04:19 AM

"that" = "summoning anything bigger than your ego"


"that" = "never summoning anything bigger than your ego"

And so 17 pages of counterarguments begin.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 04:29 AM

The problem with summoning a F6 or F8 spirit is the "net hits = services" bit. They roll 6 (or 8 ) dice to resist your summoning roll (4 skill + 6 magic + 2 focus/mentor spirit). 12 dice versus 6 is good odds for 2 tasks. 12 vs. 8 is good odds for 1 task.

The really bitch part is the drain. A F8 spirit will knock you on your ass, pretty much all the time. It's got good odds (53%) to hit you with at least 6 stun, and risky odds (25%, 10%) to hit you with 8, 10, or more stun (25% chance to do "at least 8" and 10% to do "at least 10").

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 01:02 PM

And that before any Edge Expenditures are figured in...

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 8 2011, 01:15 PM

If you have magic 6, that stun damage from the force 8 spirit is more likely physical damage. And that can be risky on the fly.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 01:29 PM

At 1:30 in the morning I didn't feel like double-checking spirit drain S/P. I was pretty sure it went physical, but I never play a summoner.

Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 8 2011, 05:24 PM

Aye, physical.

Well, i just have the following observation in my group: a highly specialized mage doesn't "get" drained. In my case it IS a pixie (which is awfully miss-statted, in my opinion), but with a bit help here and there any mage can be that good.

Of course "on the fly summoning" of something REALLY big can seriously cramp your style with some bad luck, yes. But let's make it this way:

Say you are a good mage, say: 5 Will+5 whatever and have miscellenious bonus dice (extra willpoer/whatever, centering and/or foci for 4 points) That is a drainpool of 14. Say we also have 4 Edge just in case. You are summoning something with neutral of better disposition. And made sure you can appease the spirit (so it doesn't edge out on you).

Summoning begins. You are calling, say a force 10 spirit (which IS totally insane) and get one net hit for one service. Drains will be.. OH NO... BAD LUCK: say 14 physical (which is unusual high).

You throw your 18 dice , get maybe 6 hits (which is low): you get 8 damage.
Now your friend uses first aid: -2 dice because you are a mage. Get's say 5 hits: You are down to 3.
You throw on some NoPaint, and start the run. Any opposition you accidently encounter can be vanquished without any problems (Other than someone rolling better than you and banning the spirit)

Of course it is not universal, foolproof or anything. But just the scale and possibilities are just so skewed and weird. I, for example oppose that spirits should have skills at their force-level. They can be better than the masters of skills (metahumans) on a world they don't even belong.

Maybe with taking down the skill level to 2/3 round up or something? (Oh... and maybe a slight dent in the hardened armor?)

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 05:40 PM

This is a problem with the medical rules and really shouldn't be used as a "don't worry about the drain" downside of summoning.
That said, I've abused the healing rules too. But first aid is really too fast for its benefit.



I don't know how we should do spirit skill levels, but you're right, that they shouldn't exceed "6" and probably shouldn't scale 1:1 with Force.

Especially considering that Watcher spirits are "always force 1" and thus their skills (all two of them) are at 1, making them pitifully useless at the exactly two tasks they're supposed to be the "go to" for.
(In 3rd edition they had special rules for finding people, that was more guaranteed than the Search power other spirits had).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 06:34 PM

Don't forget your First Aid Threshold, and Time Requirements. With a Threshold of 2, you only healed 3 boxes, not 5 (so you are still sporting 5 boxes of damage), and you still spend 3 full combat turns healing those boxes. Also, for The time required (IF IN COMBAT, OR ON THE FLY), it should be enforced as No Movement, because it is really hard to first aid and move at the same time.

And with only a single net hit for services, chances are good your spirit is gone on the first banish attempt by a competent mage.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 06:48 PM

For unbound spirits, yes. It's really the only reason to have/use banishing.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Aug 8 2011, 07:02 PM

It would still be easier to stunbolt the spirit than Banish it.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 07:08 PM

Generally, because you're rolling either Spellcasting or Banishing + Magic and need more hits than the spirit gets by rolling Force.

Except that the stunbolt needs F+Net Hits to be >= 10, whereas the Banish needs Net Hits to be > Services, which is unknown value.

Except that you don't have the bonus dice to banishing that most people have to spellcasting.

And it's an extra skill...

Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 8 2011, 07:12 PM

It's more the drain than the dice pool. I'm AFB right now, but IIRC, stunbolt's drain is F/2 whereas Banishing's drain is identical to Summoning: spirit's hits x2.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 07:26 PM

Stunbolt is (F/2) - 1. I use it.
All the time.
With impunity.
It is my very large hammer.
And all my targets are nails.

I am disapointed that my GM forbade multicasting (or I would, and be about 30% more effective). I don't see why though, as he made melee combat a simple action. I can, on average, down a single target in a complex action. The two melee people can down 1 target in a simple (albeit 50-50 odds for them to still be conscious) and often get to take out two.

Posted by: Lanlaorn Aug 8 2011, 07:47 PM

Yea those are some odd houserules Draco, lol. Does he let you multicast non-combat spells at least?

Anyway yes my point was, in the "Summoning for Beginners" thread let's never, ever suggest that someone take Banishing. It's strictly a trap, less effective, more drain and requires a skill that is otherwise 100% useless.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 08:10 PM

Are you telling me you are going to reliably get more than a single service from a BOUND spirit of Force 10? I call Shennanigans at that point.
I will agree that Stunbolt is a great spirit killer though... Unless cast at a Force 10 Spirit with Counterspelling...

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 8 2011, 08:14 PM

Spellcasting and 4 spells is more flexible than the entire Close Combat skill group, is ranged, is only defended against via attribute plus a rare skill, punches through Immunity and is effective on the astral. It honestly seems pretty fair to me even if it's a bit of a flavor change to make melee combat pretty nasty. Really, it's the relative rarity of counterspelling and the fact that combat spells depend on an attribute/skill combo that most magicians would be taking anyway that has always been the trickiest thing about magicians. Even a utility oriented spellcaster can add glass cannon to their resume for the karma cost of learning Stun Ball despite the fact that Spellcasting would still be quite viable even if combat spells did not exist at all. Really, I've long felt that combat spells are as good as they are largely because the Combat Mage is a long-standing archetype that few people really want to get rid of.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 08:19 PM

I actually disagree with this sentiment, but I do get where you are coming from. In a game where Force 10 Spirits are common, then Banishing is no good. In a more sane game, where spirit levels are from 3-6, it is quite good. Of course, Spiri... Errrr, Stun Bolt is often a better choice due to Drain curves, as long as the spirit does not have counterspelling.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 08:30 PM

A bound spirit resists with Force + Summoner's Magic. It may only have one service, but the odds that it has more dice (and thus more hits) than you is pretty much guaranteed.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 08:36 PM

Again, I call Shenanigans... Unless, of course, you are using overpowered spirits (any higher than Force 6). If you are, then the argument is going to go nowhere.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 08:40 PM

You said "force 10" and I said, "yup, force 10" and now you're saying "bullshit, unless force 10"

Make up your bloody mind.

I'd also like to point out that my group doesn't roll around with F10 spirits. An occasional F8 as a GM-tool? It's come up. We've never fought against them, they're a deterrent.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 8 2011, 08:41 PM

My problem here is that a "sane game" as defined by TJ isn't really representative of an awful, awful lot of games out there. In any case, an anti-spirit skill with the caveat of "Unless the Spirit is a Force 6+ meanie" isn't exactly something I'm in a rush to add to my repertoire.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 08:45 PM

Banishing works against any unbound spirit fairly equally well across the board (fewer dice to resist, but a larger number of services). Drainwise, however, it's more effective to use Stunbolt in nearly all cases (as the spirit has the same resistance pool of Force, but it's stun track is the same length, all the time, and hitting that threshold is much less drain-inducing).

Not to mention that if a magician sic's a spirit on you, you can't really know for sure if it's summoned or bound (do you want to risk that extra 6 dice it gets to resist?)

The only reason to have banishing is to go "pokemon" on other mage's spirits (banish them, and then resummon them yourself to get spirits outside your discipline). And even that is a marginal use.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 8 2011, 08:47 PM

Yeah, I'm familiar with the pokemon tactic. I just think it's weak sauce relative to what else a magician could pick up with the same points.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 08:48 PM

Oh, agreed.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 8 2011, 08:50 PM

These things are all relative, really. It's kinda like how monks in 3.x wouldn't really be a "trap" option if it weren't for like, every other class ever.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 08:53 PM

I've seen some really good monk builds.

But yeah, if it weren't for "every other class ever" they'd be ok.

(In the pathfinder game I'm in, we've got a monk who I'm pretty sure is going to get errata'ed: he never runs out of kii and never runs out of hitpoints. Every time he crits (and he built TO crit: flurry gets him 6 attacks, and he crits on a 17, so on average 1 kii gained back every round) he gets a kii back, and damage dished out is also healing*).

*I think, I don't recall the exact details, but he has some ability to heal himself based on "hitting things."

Posted by: Lanlaorn Aug 8 2011, 08:54 PM

Even against a Force 3-6 spirit, you could Stunbolt it or you could try to Banish it. And Banishing is going to be less effective, cause far more drain and, worst of all, requires you waste BP/Karma on the Banishing skill. And of course against a very high force spirit you simply won't be able to beat its rolls with Banishing, but stunbolt will do the job.

If you want to roleplay a spirit exorcist of sorts you absolutely need to convince your GM to houserule Banishing into something useful. It just doesn't work in its current form.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 8 2011, 09:08 PM

Yeah, I should point out I'm not really familiar with Pathfinder. My experience with D&D mostly boils down to those not-so-halcyon days back before people decided that maybe it's best to pretend that Polymorph never happened.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 8 2011, 09:23 PM

Indeed, I hate that tactic. Fortunately, we have never had an occurence, at our table, of said tactic.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 8 2011, 09:37 PM

No worries. I'm not terribly familiar with pathfinder either.

Posted by: Cain Aug 9 2011, 06:31 AM

Ok, here's the thing: if you have a Magic of 5 or 6, there's no reason to summon a Force 8 spirit. You may as well go for a Force 9, so you get another optional power.

If you have Magic 6, then if you're going all-out, go for the force 12. But otherwise, there's only two efficient forces to summon spirits at: Magic, and Magic x 2. Frank Trollman did the math on that, and he conclusively proved that this was the most bang for your buck.

Now, some people (like TJ) will throw GM fiat in your way of you try to summon anything bigger than a breadbox. Most of us don't do that, however. I have no problem with mages summoning big spirits, but I might throw a few tricks if they try *binding* one. The important difference here is that snap summoning a high-force spirit is an act of desperation, while binding one requires planning and forethought. A powerful spirit isn't going to like the idea that you're planning on binding it to servitude.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 12:51 PM

Interesting that you determine that the rules in the book are GM Fiat. Interesting Indeed.
I firmly believe in the Fluff, in that Spirits of Force 7+ are supposed to be extremely rare (After all, The average mage in world can not even summon one). I (we) just use the rules that are already there (Edge Expenditure to resist Summoning/Binding) to enforce that...

As for Frank's Proof, I call BS. It is Opinion, and nothing more.

Posted by: pbangarth Aug 9 2011, 01:18 PM

I'm not sure this thread is the place to point out a glaring oversight most people have about Banishing... yes I am. This one is about Summoning. I'll start a new thread.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 01:36 PM

I'd be interested... Start away...

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 9 2011, 01:52 PM

May I ask where it is stated? I couldn't find any information on spirit power levels on the spot, maybe I just looked in the wrong direction.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 04:06 PM

Read the Editions from 1st through now. Read the Novels.
No where does a magician summon a Virtual God to do its bidding. (Insect) Shamans notwithstanding. Spirits are at worst your equal, except for very rare circumstances. At best, they are slaves to be bent to the Magicians own desires. Any Spirit at Force 7+ is far superior to any Mortal (short of an IE/GD), and once you hit 10+ they likely see you as such an insiginificant bug that they do not even recognize you as sentient. Gods do not serve mortals, it is quite the other way around. Fluff wise at least.

Yes, I know, Mechanically, there is no reason not to game the system for the most powerful spirit you can get. But it is just that. Gaming the system. My Two Cents, and not everyone agrees with it, but there you go.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2011, 06:06 PM

Previous edition fluff != SR4 rules. You can kick and scream about that if you like, but tons of people don't make gentleman's agreements for current rule sets based solely on past experience with earlier editions due to the simple fact that they don't own that stuff and shouldn't have to, particularly given that a lot of that stuff is fundamentally contradictory. Beyond that, there's a difference between not being representative of the general population and being truly rare-- if the Awakened were classified as their own species they'd handily nab "Least Concerned" conservation status. If even a tenth of the magically active people in Seattle are Magicians with a Magic of 4 you're talking about several thousand potential summoners. Between corp response teams, magical research departments, twisted mages, aspected domains and the orgs it hits me as pretty weird to think that a summoner rocking a 4 isn't something runners aren't going to run into from time to time. It's an RPG, and dealing with unusual crap is what player characters do.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 07:59 PM

I never said the Fluff = Rules. The Fluff informs the Rules, for without the Fluff, the rules become arbitrary and meaningless. Shadowrun is a living, breathing world. It is not a Set of Mechanics. You are spouting the same arguments that many use to demand an increase in the Skill Ratings because mecahnically they disagree with the Fluff, and they believe that the Fluff on those Skill Ratings is garbage. The game is fluffed to render a specific theme. The world is set up to imitate that Fluff, and thus allow that theme to come to life. Unfortunately, there are some who seem to think that the limits of that theme (and thus the Fluff) are wrong and broken. The fact is that the Fluff DOES support the view I have put forth, regardless of which edition it comes from.

The fact remains that Spirits above Rating 6 are powerful compared to mortals. You can't really argue that. And the higher they go, the more powerful (and thus overpowered) they become (even if you can design some countermeasures to partially compensate for that). In the end, just like the Pornomancer, the Climbing Monster and the Medic from Hell, things become broken when taken to extremes. Spirits above 6 are the extremes. In small doses they are fine, but when every character, whether PC or NPC is assumed to be able to just casually summon a Spirit of Force 8+, then the world rapidly breaks down (Just as it does with overpowered characters). Because I can guarantee you that if the assumption is that PC's can do it, then the NPC's can do the same or worse (After all, the PC's are not Special Snowflakes, and the Corps have greater resources than a PC will ever have access to). At which point, you have an Arm's Race in every sense of the word. It is a race the PC's WILL LOSE in the end.

Anyways... No worries. Different interpretaions of the Rules are allowed. You appear to have a different interpretation of the Game World than I do. No Problems. I just think that it is very disingenuous to suggest that Spirits of Forces above 6 are the Norm for the Game World. It is only that way if the GM does nothing to control that world.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2011, 09:19 PM

No, it really doesn't. The fluff doesn't say anywhere that mages routinely decide not to do things that they are perfectly capable of doing in life-threatening situations or that powerful mages don't exist or that if they do exist they stick to gentleman's agreements even in dangerous situations. It supports quite the opposite impression, from what I've seen. Magicians happen to be rare, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a happy medium between "every named NPC being able to summon Force 8" and "The MCT HRT Captain can summon Force 8." Some characters are going to be able to summon big spirits. That is not "gaming the system," as you imply; people will summon Force 3s or 6s more often, sure, but to imply that pulling your trump card in a desperate situation runs counter to the setting hits me as pretty willfully ignoring the fact that in most settings characters like to continue breathing.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 09:41 PM

You are right... SOME NPC's can summon the Big Spirits. BUT, EVERY PC can do so from Character Generation (if you follow the Guidelines for Character generation espoused here on Dumpshock, which I completely disagree with), which breaks the verisimilitude of the world. The problem with your argument is that the vast majority of players WILL summon the most powerful spirit they can get away with, which in most cases is Force 8+, unless something is there to remove that temptation to do so at a whim. The only real detriment to that is to use Edge for Spirits to resist the Summoning and Binding that is so commonly talked about here. Otherwise, that Brand New, 400BP Magician PC is going to summon that Force 12 Spirit, because he has a 2 dice advantage over the Spirit, and will likely (on average) only take about 8 Damage doing so (Which may be more or less, of course) because he has a buddy with a Medkit standing by. This is the disconnect that so many people miss. If it was SO EASY to do so, every spirit you faced would be at that level. The fact that it does not happen, should be a good indication that there is something that keeps it from happening. It is gaming the system when they know that there are no consequences to doing so, because they can bully the GM into letting it happen. That does not fly at our table, and never will.

I agree that in the crux of the moment, when you are out of options and are about to die, there is no harm to try that Big Summoning. But, that is not how it plays out in practice, if the vast majority of Dumpshockers are to be believed.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2011, 09:58 PM

See, to me it doesn't break verisimilitude. What runners do isn't an every day thing practically by definition. That powerful runner mages like to summon big critters when fighting yakuza has little bearing on what Joe Wage Mage is doing at work.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 9 2011, 10:36 PM

But it does if every mage is capable of such from character generation. IF that was the case, don't you think it would be highlighted in the Fluff describing THE WORLD ITSELF. NPC Mages are just as capable (if not more so) of providing the Force 12 Spirit to protect the Secured Site under that assumption; don't you think it would be a trope for the Corps at this point? Since it obviously is not, then such High Level Spirits are NOT the Norm, and thus PC's chould NOT be summoninng them like the buy Growlie Bars at the Azmart.

The assumption that Runner Mages are More Powerful than the Mages the Corps can employ is where the disconnect is apparently happening here.

Maybe an opinion, but like I said, it is supported by the Fluff.

No worries though...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 9 2011, 10:49 PM

I don't truck with this 'fluff' you speak of, but I know that summoning and using (or trying to use) powerful spirits is the fundamental story in all literature. You never summon something weaker than you… that'd be stupid. And you always eventually get killed by something too strong. So knock yourself out.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 9 2011, 11:39 PM

I don't assume PC mages are more powerful than hypothetical corp mage X, no. There's certainly going to be people out there who can match or trump a shadowrunner. I do believe that 400 bp PC mages are more powerful than say, the professionalism 3 corp sec wage mage mook listed in the book though. To quote that table you're fond of, it's not hard to have a starting shadowrunner who is a "veteran" with multiple skills and can "handle difficult tasks with ease." Very little of the shadowrun fluff really deals with protagonists who aren't in some ways pretty exceptional. I know that sticks in the craws of many players who seek a playing style that leans more towards simulationist than cinematic, but, well, that's the fluff (and hell, fiction in general) for you. Food Fight may be the intro adventure, but after a while they expect you to handle yourself in a pitched battle against shedim.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2011, 12:52 AM

Which you can do with a Mage with Magic 4, Skill 4 and a Mentor. You don't need 20 dice to compete.

No worries though. As I said in the Mohawk Thread, I prefer the game at 1-5 on the Mohawk Scale.

Posted by: Cain Aug 10 2011, 12:54 AM

Not all of us like to nerf the players. Shadowrunners are supposed to be capable, so they should be able to do powerful things.

That said, the biggest spirit a starting SR4.5 character can summon is Force 12, and that carries a tremendous risk. You're going to take physical drain from it, you're not going to get many services, and it's not going to stick around that long. Snap summoning a huge spirit like that isn't a big deal, because it's an act of desperation and not a normal tactic. You can't keep doing that without killing yourself, plain and simple.

Now, binding a force 12 spirit is more problematic. You can keep that up indefinitely, if you know what you're doing. But summoning a high-force spirit is not a big deal.

Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 10 2011, 02:31 AM

Honestly, I don't even really mind gentleman's agreements or nerfing a sheet to keep things feeling cozy. It's just when it's implied that it's what the fluff intends that I raise an eyebrow. Generally speaking, shadowrun stories tend to follow the same general outline: the protags try to play things low profile and then crazy shit happens and eventually someone has to do something ballsy (and often not very subtle) to get them out of it while wearing their big god damn hero hat. Sure, runners take their lumps, express angst and even die in shadowrun books but it's rarely because they were particularly average. Fluff intentions are thus a really hard thing to draw any hard conclusions about. You'll usually get a better story out of a tragedy than a smooth run, so while crazy stories may be intended as "exceptional examples" in-universe they're usually also the only examples that people care about irl. It's almost inherently biased.

Posted by: Smirnov Aug 10 2011, 08:15 AM

Valid point. Summoning a great spirit should be something not taken casually.
I just thought maybe there are some rules limitations save 'great, you got him. Now soak 20 drain'.

Posted by: Cain Aug 10 2011, 08:19 AM

You know, I have read just about all the novels and the fluff. There are examples of spirits being "virtual gods", although if I had to benchmark them, they come in at force 6 or so. The very first core rulebook has someone killing himself by summoning too powerful of a spirit.

I have no trouble with mages summoning force 12 spirits, because if they happen to succeed, they're probably in for a world of hurt.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2011, 01:03 PM

Which is my point (I too would place most of those spirits around the Force 5-6 range). You have an extremely powerful ally at Force 6. WHY would you want to up the stakes by summoning a Force 10 Spirit? An Entity that is so above you that it does not probably even recognize you as anything other than a nuissance. Yet, in the game, everyone says to go for it, because you can do it with absolutely no problem. Fortunately, there are rules to allow you to say "NO" to that type of shennanigan. A Spirit above Force 6 is pretty unstoppable; one at 10+ is virtually indestructible, and WILL wreck your game if it is not a significant part of your plot. PC's should NOT be summoning such entities just casually, or with little fear of consequence, death from overstepping your bounds being chief among them.

No worries...

Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 10 2011, 01:58 PM

At last we have a legitimate complaint... against the GM.

If the GM wants a street-level game, he shouldn't be approving characters with 6 Magic and Restricted Gear for bigger foci. If he's not running a street level game, then he needs to be making said mage go through HTR teams. Said mage should quickly garner a reputation as a walking force of nature and be hired for jobs that REQUIRE F10 spirits knocking down buildings and throwing tanks.

Alternately, perhaps the mage, in-character, doesn't even realize the risks he's taking. Everybody knows spirits are powerful entities, and that summoning/binding them carries extreme risks. Even with professional training, magic is a personal, subjective art. If he was born with that high willpower to soak all that drain, he might be aware that he's exerting himself, but not that he's exerting himself to an extraordinary level.

TL;DR: The only problem I see with your scenario is a GM expecting a character with Magic 6 to be challenged by Professionalism 3 mooks. Either don't bring a pistol to rocket tag, or tell the player to stick to pistols before the game starts.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2011, 03:04 PM

Interestingly, we do not suffer from this problem, all that much, at our table (Our Magic 6/7 and Resonace 8 Characters are OFTEN challenged by Professionalism 3 Mooks; it is all in the setup)... Contrary to belief, there is no gentleman's agreement in effect to keep dice pools low. We just do not game the system to create characters with 20+ Dice in the primary areas. The other reason, for spirit control, is that we use the Edge Rules to resist summoning and Binding. Any spirit above Force 3 automatically spends Edge to resist. Spirits of Force 3 and lower are considered to be compliant most of the time, unelss the Mage has garnered a reputation for abusive behavior, at which point they too will spend Edge to resist.

It is really not all that hard to keep things under control, as long as you remember that controls already exist in the mechanics of the game. It is very easy to control Summoning/Binding, or Mages, or Faces, or whatever other "Broken" archtype exists in game. The issue is not that they are "overpowered," it is that many GM's refuse to implement such measures because they believe that it detracts from the game. Obviously, our table tends to disagree with that sentiment.

Anyways... Off the soap box, and apologies for the Preaching.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 10 2011, 04:04 PM

I hope you're enforcing those rules on the NPC mages too. That is, almost no F4 or higher spirits anywhere in the gameworld, as they'd inflict on average 6 DV worth of drain, compared to RAW's 2 DV (for just summoning it).

Force 5 would be rocking around 8 DV instead of 2 to 4.

Then you get to binding, binding a Force 4 would incur roughly 14 DV worth of drain (12 dice + Edge reroll) or 12 DV (12+Edge = 18). 14 DV worth of stun on the binding mage is good odds to knock them unconscious, not get the spirit bound, and instead it gets to roam free, uncontrolled.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 10 2011, 04:56 PM

Indeed we do... Which is why a Force 5/6 Spirit is a big deal in game. Additionally, the FEW spirits we have seen above Force 6 have been extremely memorable experiences, including the 1 (yep, only 1) instance where our mage summoned a Force 7 Spirit in the Zero Zone we were running at the time.

I still remember the Force 5 Spirit that inflicted 20 Drain on our poor Mage (Mage had a Magic of 6 at the time). It was Stun, but Still... 20 Drain.
Additionally, the Spirits are most definitely aspected towards whatever the Tradition the Mage is. It is a lot of work, but it is extremely fun and often entertaining to see the differences in Spirits, even from the same classification, dependant upon tradition.

Anyways...

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 10 2011, 05:28 PM

Good man.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 10 2011, 06:01 PM

As long as we understand TJ's O-RAW is specifically used in his games I think we can move beyond it and back to the purview of this thread. To that end:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=25710&st=0

This should be required reading for anyone wanting to build a mage. Or anyone who can spend a few points on Negotiations and Arcana.