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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Firearms
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 02:09 AM
Like my previous threads, this one is for shamelessly sponging off the forum's collective wisdom to help me go from clueless to powergamer in an acceptable about of time. My laptop is down, my PDFs are unavailable, and I really have not much to do but beg for your wisdom with my thumbs.
So. Firearms. Best friend of everybody with an enemy. Teach me of the weapons of the future.
What types of firearms should I be using for which characters in which situations? Are there some types that are completely inferior?
Of the useful types, which specific weapons do you recommend for character creation? What about acquisition in play? Drone loadout vs personal?
What modifications and accessories are mandatory, recommended, or traps?
What situations call for ammo other than Stick and Shock?
Other tips on the collection and use of death projecting devices?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 02:26 AM
What weapon is the best weapon?
The one in your hand when the drek hits the fan. That's the best weapon you can ever have in the world, even if it's the lowly Streetline Special.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 02:35 AM
Yes, but if you get to pick beforehand, which weapon is in your hand when you need it?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 02:48 AM
It's like everything else. You accessorize properly for the party.
A Heavy Pistol or a Machine Pistol will never serve you wrong for most concealed carry situations, however. Ares Predator is the King of Heavy Pistols and for a damned good reason, but the Colt Manhunter and Colt Government Model of 2066 are also good contenders. For a Machine Pistol, the Ceska Black Scorpion or the new Onotari Equalizer (Gun Haven Heaven) appear to be two good options, with the Ares Crusader being a strong contender as well.
Anything else, you use the right tool for the right job. But, if it's down and dirty and you need something that throws a lot of lead and won't let you down: AK-97, kill every motherfragger in the room but you, accept no substitutes!
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 12 2011, 03:01 AM
Pistols and Automatics are the cause of, and solution to, most of a 'runner's problems.
Modifications: Unless your weapon has Electronic Firing, get Personalized Grip. If it's a Smartgun, get Skinlink so you're not broadcasting your gun's presence. Hackers can eject said gun's clips afterall.
Pistols have three uses: as surprise, backup, or primary weapons.
Surprise: Holdouts or Light Pistols, these are for sneaking firearms into places where you're not supposed to have them (both meanings). The Morrissey Elan is best for this as it is not detectable by MAD. Just make sure to bring Hi-C (plastic) rounds so the ammo doesn't set off the detectors.
Backup: Light or Heavy Pistols, this is for those times when your primary weapon can't be used for whatever reason. I prefer the Fichetti Security 600 filled with Stick-n-Shock, modified for Full Auto and Additional Clip. It's pricy but it can let you unleash suppressive fire with SnS, then switch to the next clip and do it all over again. Advisable to equip it with a Smartgun external accessory for this purpose (Free Action to switch between smartgun clips, Simple Action otherwise)
Primary: Ares Predator IV. Smack on a Personalized Grip and Skinlink for a cool 500 
pistol. Accessorize with a Silencer. Cheap, reliable, and functional. Works as a Backup weapon as well. Alternatively, the Ruger Super Warhawk is a great heavy revolver. But it is LOUD.
Stealthy Primary: Arsenal gave us the Colt Government 2066 which has Electronic Firing. Modify this (not accessorize) with Smartgun, Skinlink, Silencer, and Powered Easy Breakdown for a 2150 gun that you can take almost anywhere with you and fills all the roles above. That said, it's also less disposable due to its price. You can throw away the Elan after using it.
These are just basics, Automatics get more ornate.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 03:36 AM
Sometimes you want loud. Also, when you consider your main opponents to be a vehicle, the Ruger Super Warhawk is your weapon of choice. Power that round into the engine block!
Posted by: TheOOB Aug 12 2011, 05:51 AM
Pistols are essential runner gear, they are concealable, cheap, legal in most areas, and still pack a punch, but unless you are some kind of pistol adept you don't want to be caught in a hot zone with just a pistol. For pistols it's hard to do much better than the Ares Predator IV. It's got high damage, a good clip size, and built in internal smartlink, so it's ready to be modified to your hearts content.
For better guns, automatics are usually the way to go. Assault Rifles are usually the winner hear. Sub machine guns, machine pistols, ect all have their uses, but if concealability and price are not an issue, go straight to the big guns. Auto fire wins fights pretty darn quickly, so load up on recoil compensation. Once again, Ares does well, with the Ares Alpha being one of the best guns around. Has an internal smartlink, bonus RC, and a grenade launcher built in, leaving more mod slots to play with.
Longarms and heavy weapons are more specialty things. When you need a sniper rifle or a rocket launcher, they're great, but general combat they tend to lose out.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 06:26 AM
Pistols to SMGs are your most likely common-use weapons.
However, if things get hairy, remember this: Those that escalate faster are often the winners.
Then, run away! 
-k
...I may be biased, playing a rigger who has been know to define "escalate" as "level the entire structure with heavy vehicular weaponry".
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 06:32 AM
See, that's what I'm on about. Do elaborate on the heavy vehicular weaponry.
Posted by: suoq Aug 12 2011, 12:34 PM
Off the Shelf
Defiance Ex-Shocker, no license required.
Ares Predator IV, good solid staple
Morrissey Élan, broken. Made entirely out of forbidden parts, it's just restricted
Streetline Special. 100 If you're going in to rescue hostages, and you want to arm them, buy these in bulk.
Ingram Smartgun X, broken, comes with a good selection of mods including forbidden mods in a restricted gun.
Ares Alpha, again, a good solid staple.
Predator XXL, When you care enough to kill everyone involved.
Mods:
Airburst Link on the Ares Alpha
Any of the mods on "Honey" (below)
Excessively Modified.
HK-227X ("Honey") 5P - SA/BF/FA 6(7) 28© SR4 318
Concealable Holster, Gas-Vent 3 System, Quick-Draw Holster, Spare Clips, Spare Clips, Stock, Underbarrel Weight, Additional Clip, Camera Upgrade, Thermographic, Camera Upgrade, Vision Magnification, Personalized Grip, Skinlink, Sling, Smartgun System, Sound Suppressor
Note on Smartguns:
For whatever reason, glasses, binoculars, goggles, scopes, etc don't have a recording feature and can't get one. Cybereyes do. Cameras do. You can get a recorder implanted in your skull. However, the Smartgun System contains a camera. The upside of this is that you can get some useful camera upgrades for doing recon and the gun records your killing of people you've been hired to kill. The downside of this means you actually have to point your gun at whatever you're reconning and the gun records your killing of people you haven't been hired to kill. Anyone wanting to arguing recording with a smartgun, feel free to start a new thread and point to it.
Additional Clip: Personally, I like my clips to be one lethal, one non-lethal. I'm not sure why it isn't standard for law enforcement.
------------------------------
1) They can do so if they've hacked the master that gun is slaved to. At this point someone's PAN is compromised or, worse, that PAN is slaved to a compromised Tacnet.
or
2) If they want to hack or spoof (at -6 admin) then they need to get the access_ID, which should only be available from #1 (above), or scan hidden (up close and personal). There is no reason the access_ID should be published or the gun should be running in active or passive mode.
Meanwhile, restricting your gun to skinlink means that every time you check in your gun at a bar it's out of your control. If you leave the wireless on, you can look through the smartgun camera and notice anyone attempting to remove/replace clips, turn it off, etc.
Both have their risks, but skinlink isn't the clear advantage people claim.
Posted by: Bigity Aug 12 2011, 01:13 PM
It's not standard for law enforcement because non-lethal bullets are in fact not, non-lethal in many cases.
Why risk it when you can use a taser? It's a good idea for Shadowrun though 
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 12 2011, 01:33 PM
There are four shooty skills. Pistols, Automatics, Longarms, and Heavy Weapons. Of these, Longarms are useless because everything they do, Heavy Weapons do better and with less drawbacks. Gunnery also deserves a mention.
There are two basic elements to each firearm. "How concealable is it" and "How good is it at killing things." These break down into:
1) Can I hide it?
2) Does it look like something that is not a gun?
and
3) How good is it at killing dudes?
4) How good is it at killing robots?
5) How good is it at killing things that are far away?
Pistols have weapons that are so good at 1) that 2) doesn't matter. With Stick-n-shock, pistols are acceptable at 3, and without it, they are not so good at either 3 or 4, but they might well be "good enough." They do not bring 5) at all.
Automatics have weapons that are pretty good at everything, but are the best at only 2) [Ares Executive Protector] and 3.
Longarms are in theory good at 4 and 5 but Heavy Weapons are better.
Heavy Weapons bring 3, 4, and 5, fail miserably at 2), and have only the ArmTech MGL-6 for 1, although it is a nice trick (pistol-sized grenade launcher).
The good stuff in each category:
Pistols: Morrisey Elan is very concealable and gets past MAD. The Ruger Thunderbolt has BF (albeit only narrow bursts) and high base damage, and can be modded to have enough recoil compensation for two short bursts. The Yamaha Sakura Fubuki is more concealable than the Thunderbolt, just as good with Stick-n-shock, but worse without Stick-n-shock.
Automatics: To get the full use out of automatics, you need a cyberarm gyromount, a high strength, Foot Anchors, or some combination of the above. You can get OK use out of them anyways.
The B&P MP-9 (Gun Heaven) is the best machine pistol in pretty much every way. The only other machine pistol really worth using outside of niches is the Ares Crusader, for the large clip.
The Ares Executive Protector looks like a briefcase. This makes it pro.
The Ingram Supermach 100 is the cheapest way to get a HV Stick-n-shock gun, but has low base damage. If you are sufficiently recoil-compenating-y or willing to use a Gyrostabilizer, you can instead mod the Praetor to be better for HV lethal ammo. If not, you can mod the Praetor for fully compensated FA fire.
The Ingram Smartgun X is restricted, but has a sound suppressor.
Assault Rifles:
The Ares Alpha is good, because it has 2 innate recoil compensation; if you have some innate RC, you can mod it enough for fully compensated HV fire. If not you can almost certainly mod it for fully compensated FA fire.
There's a narrow range of lacking enough innate RC for a HV Ares Alpha but having enough innate RC for an Ares HVAR where it is a good gun for SnS spam.
There are various more or less equivalent assault rifles that are only Restricted and not Forbidden but are less good than the above. The AK-97 has the virtue of being cheap.
Battle Rifles:
Good for sniping because they use sporting rifle ranges.
If you have a little innate RC, the Ares HVBR is the best Battle Rifle by a wide margin because it is HV-capable and has 3 innate RC, but doesn't suffer from lower base damage than other battle rifles. Oddly enough, you apparently need to mod it for FA in order to use its HV capabilities, although some GMs might rule that it is supposed to have FA.
If you don't, the AVC-7.62 is the best Battle Rifle. It is also Restricted, not Forbidden like the HVBR. Mod it for FA.
Heavy Weapons:
Thankfully, these are simple.
The Ingram White Knight has magical Gas Vent 5, and thus can get a whole lot of recoil compensation. Other than that, it is an inferior weapon; there's no reason not to just use the biggest machine gun you can with a Gyrostabilizer; it's not like machine guns are subtle anyways.
The RPK HMG is the biggest gun.
The Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle (check the errata - it is ap -half then -4) is the sniper rifle of choice. and also good for blowing up tanks and whatnot.
The ArmTech MGL-6 is a concealable grenade launcher.
There are like a zillion more or less equivalent not concealable grenade launchers and you can get them as underbarrel attachments and all that crap. Go hog wild.
Mods: Chameleon Coating is very useful.
In general, you should familiarize yourself with how recoil compensation stacks. You will typically want to mod the bejeezus out of every weapon you use for more recoil compensation so you can spray bullets everywhere.
Gunnery: Gunnery is nice because it covers every weapon you can slap onto a vehicle. The good stuff:
Ares Screech Sonic Rifle is completely legal and quite nasty.
AK-97's are cheap and alright.
The Auto-Assault 16 is the best "LMG or smaller" option for non-reinforced mounts as a short-range weapon, as it is like an LMG, but does more damage and is only Restricted, not Forbidden.
The Ingram White Knight is a good balance between range and power for LMG or smaller mounts. It is Forbidden, though.
If you want you can stick a sniper rifle onto a vehicle or drone and use it to snipe people. The Barrett Model 121 is the best of them.
If you aren't restricted to LMG or smaller mounts because you have a Reinforced mount, the good options are the GE Vigilant Light Autocannon (5000Y, pretty awesome), the GE Vindicator Heavy Autocannon (20000Y, extremely awesome), the Lone Star FlashFlood Water Cannon (5000Y, Restricted, nonlethal, won't even make the evening news), or just using a smaller weapon anyways if you want a Restricted lethal weapon.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 12 2011, 01:41 PM
I believe that Automatics is the absolute second-best firearms skill in the game (Gunnery being the first - it can fire every single weapon in the game). In automatics you get Machine Pistols, SMGs, and Assault Rifles - basically your short, medium, and long-range forms of attack. That is amazingly efficient for one weaponskill.
I myself did a weapons comparison, or "Best-of-the-Best" for each classification, but basically don't feel like reposting it. Besides, there are a few other people with similar lists given already, and even though I just glanced over them I bet all of us agree on things.
EDIT: Oh, unlike a person or two above I never use automatics with BF/FA. A 40 round clip means never having to reload.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 12 2011, 02:01 PM
Playing a fairly slight elf-girl, whose only firearm skill is pistols, I find that light pistols just seem most suitable for the character, and if you are using stick-and-shock, unless I am misreading the rules it makes no difference what gun I'm firing them out of, they still do the 6s(e) damage.
Since she's very much about the well placed, single accurate shot, and has the Eagle Eyes quality, I'm rather liking the Nitama Sporter for its light pistol form factor but heavy pistol ranges.
Shame its so expensive - and when the gun is expensive, so is an internal smartgun :/
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2011, 02:07 PM
This new gun called 'anything'. 
All the firearms are the same in Shadowrun, with a few minor distinctions.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 12 2011, 02:11 PM
1) They can do so if they've hacked the master that gun is slaved to. At this point someone's PAN is compromised or, worse, that PAN is slaved to a compromised Tacnet.
or
2) If they want to hack or spoof (at -6 admin) then they need to get the access_ID, which should only be available from #1 (above), or scan hidden (up close and personal). There is no reason the access_ID should be published or the gun should be running in active or passive mode.
Meanwhile, restricting your gun to skinlink means that every time you check in your gun at a bar it's out of your control. If you leave the wireless on, you can look through the smartgun camera and notice anyone attempting to remove/replace clips, turn it off, etc.
Both have their risks, but skinlink isn't the clear advantage people claim.
1) Most runners that aren't hackers make do with Firewall 3, sad to say, and hope that keeping their Commlink in hidden mode is enough.
2) Yep.
If a player Hacker can do the same thing a corp Hacker or Spider can. Or a corp TM. It may be difficult to do so, but it can still be done, more likely if your GM wants to make a point about security.
From Arsenal, p153
318–319, SR4) in order to make it more difficult to hack. The
weapon can be commanded to default to the skinlink, immedi-
ately switching to wireless mode if the skinlink is broken.
So yeah, if you have the Skinlink option it doesn't mean it removes the wireless functionality.
It is a clear advantage and only if you don't need your gun to be a Smartgun (just in case your PAN can be hacked to find out if you have any guns subscribed to it) should you not have it installed.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 02:45 PM
If your group dislikes WAR, then modding a Sporting Rifle for FA fire can be quite nasty when mounting on a gyro-linked vehicle mount with an ammo bin. It's certainly the highest base damage you can get short of Battle Rifles or HMGs (at 8P/-1), and you can get it at chargen without restricted gear.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2011, 02:50 PM
Only technically. It's still Forbidden, after all. I'd rather just get a real MG, it's belted. Your sport rifle has a 5 round *internal magazine* (8c with a modified Wildhuter), and no amount of ammo bin changes that.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 02:59 PM
I'd rather just get a real MG, it's belted. Your sport rifle has a 5 round *internal magazine* (8c with a modified Wildhuter), and no amount of ammo bin changes that.I thought there was that cheese bit that ammo bins add belt feed to anything below a rocket launcher...
Alright, the drum mag isn't available for sporters. So you have to get the ammo-bin introduced belt-feed by your GM.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 03:03 PM
Umm.. Weapon Mounts automatically hold 250 rounds already without having to add any extra Ammo Bins. I assume as part of the process of affixing the gun to the weapon mount some sort of feed mechanism delivers rounds from that 'free' hopper to the weapon.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 03:06 PM
Nope.
Arsenal pg. 147:
"Each weapon mount can also hold up to 250 rounds of ammunition, if the weapon has a beltfeed loading mechanism. Weapons with other loading mechanisms or larger ammunition (rocket launchers, for example) are restricted to their standard amount of ammunition."
There is currently no method of adding a beltfeed to any weapon that doesn't have it to start with.
-k
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2011, 03:08 PM
Yeah, we've had threads about that. It's an obvious cheat that would be illegal if it weren't already not true.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 03:10 PM
Arsenal pg. 147:
"Each weapon mount can also hold up to 250 rounds of ammunition, if the weapon has a beltfeed loading mechanism. Weapons with other loading mechanisms or larger ammunition (rocket launchers, for example) are restricted to their standard amount of ammunition."
There is currently no method of adding a beltfeed to any weapon that doesn't have it to start with.
-k
*puts away his magnifying glass and iPhone* I stand corrected sir. Hrm.. looks like that Lockheed Optic-X drone with the Machine Pistol needs a little tweaking.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 03:12 PM
Turret ammo capacity, though, is a great reason to go out and grab the Arachne drone when you can get it if you're rocking an LMG anyhow. Slap it on the LMG, and bam, 250 ammo count, plus you can toss your weapon down and it'll operate on it's own.
The Arachne PROBABLY should have had a Flexible Mount instead of a Turret, but what can ya do.
-k
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 03:20 PM
a lot of opposition, it’s good to have lots of ammunition
to deal with it. Each ammo bin is attached to a single weapon
mount, and each additional ammo bin attached adds another
250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed, or doubles the weapon’s
normal ammunition capacity in the case of weapons with larger
ammunition (such as rocket launchers).
Indeed there have been threads about this, but this is it, white on black, or something like that. It's RAW, which means your group has to house-rule it not to work.
This is also nice for your home-grown full-auto grenade launcher
.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2011, 03:41 PM
It's not RAW. At all. You're simply misreading the sentence. Arsenal clarifies for the illiterate. 
Still, let's review the *other* arguments: it costs basically nothing (so it can't rationally perform that tricky gun mod for nothing), it explicitly breaks exclusions (like internal magazines, or your GL), and it eliminates the reason for belted weapons to exist. So, even if it were RAW, it would be stupid, bad RAW, which everyone is honor-bound to reject.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 03:42 PM
-k
That is what a good Armorer skill rank is good for.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 04:04 PM
And since there are no Modifications for such, nor designs in existance for such modifications for the weapons that are not built with them, how exactly are you going to cost that one out? It can be done, to be sure, but not without proper tooling (Should require a Facility and a hell of a design team). It is often just easier to design the weapon with the Belt feed as part of its manufacture. Altering one is not as easy as you may think, and it will NOT resemble the original weapon in the least.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 04:10 PM
Yeah, to accomplish something like that, you'd basically have to build a new weapon from the ground up. I wouldn't consider it the same weapon.
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 12 2011, 04:18 PM
So. Firearms. Best friend of everybody with an enemy. Teach me of the weapons of the future.
What types of firearms should I be using for which characters in which situations? Are there some types that are completely inferior?
Of the useful types, which specific weapons do you recommend for character creation? What about acquisition in play? Drone loadout vs personal?
What modifications and accessories are mandatory, recommended, or traps?
What situations call for ammo other than Stick and Shock?
Other tips on the collection and use of death projecting devices?
Like everything that man has created, firearms are tools meant to solve a specific problem: Killing something at range as quickly and easily as possible.
All of the guns presented in Shadowrun are capable of doing this, but they're all tools calibrated for specific tasks. You don't use a wrench when you need a screwdriver, right? Similarly, you don't use a Submachinegun when you need a Sniper Rifle.
Due to the highly-abstracted nature of the Shadowrun ranged combat rules, I feel that the three best firearm catagories are Pistols, Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles.
A Heavy Pistol can be easily concealed, modified with just about anything you'd need, and is powerful enough to serve as a main-weapon. The foil of all pistols is their lack of range and armor-penetrating ability, so pick your targets and aim your shots for maximum effectiveness. There are lots of good heavy pistols out there, but really, you don't need anything more than a Predator IV.
Assault Rifles, like in real life, are highly versatile and reasonable powerful. They can carry underbarrel grenade launchers, are long enough range to serve as a marksman rifle, and have Full Auto and large ammo reserves to use suppressive fire, and can still be silenced. Best of all, you can modify a single rifle to fit all of these mods. The best Assault Rifle, hands down, is the Alpha.
Its fairly obvious what Sniper Rifles are good for. Last I checked, the Desert Fox was still the best option for sniping (Haven't read WAR, so I dono what they added).
As for Modifications: Smartlink, Personal Grip, Skinlink on pretty much everything. Gas Vent 3, Integral Sound Suppressor, Sling/Gecko Grip as you see fit. Keep a few weapons in reserve, each designed with different tasks in mind (infiltration, assault, ect.), and always dress for the occasion.
Times when not to use S'n'S? Well, ultimately that's up to the GM, and his level of hatred for S'n'S.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 04:35 PM
Ammo Bins (Standard): Sometimes when you’re expecting
a lot of opposition, it’s good to have lots of ammunition
to deal with it. Each ammo bin is attached to a single weapon
mount, and each additional ammo bin attached adds another
250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed, or doubles the weapon’s
normal ammunition capacity in the case of weapons with larger
ammunition (such as rocket launchers).
Indeed there have been threads about this, but this is it, white on black, or something like that. It's RAW, which means your group has to house-rule it not to work.
This is also nice for your home-grown full-auto grenade launcher
.A misinterpretation of the wording of a rule does not make it RAW. It should be read as "adds another 250 rounds of ammunition (belt feed)"
As in, adds 250 to weapons with belt feed, not adds 250 belt feed to any weapon.
The former matches the rule from Arsenal and does not require any leaps of twisted logic.
The latter results in a magic device that somehow adds a beltfeed even to a single shot weapon, but without altering the weapon in any way, because if you remove the weapon from the mount it does not have the beltfeed anymore. And you can then put in a completely different weapon with a different feed mechanism and it will somehow make it beltfed without altering that weapon or the ammo bin.
Which makes more sense?
-k
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 05:15 PM
This is also nice for your home-grown full-auto grenade launcher
.A misinterpretation of the wording of a rule does not make it RAW. It should be read as "adds another 250 rounds of ammunition (belt feed)"
As in, adds 250 to weapons with belt feed, not adds 250 belt feed to any weapon.
The former matches the rule from Arsenal and does not require any leaps of twisted logic.
The latter results in a magic device that somehow adds a beltfeed even to a single shot weapon, but without altering the weapon in any way, because if you remove the weapon from the mount it does not have the beltfeed anymore. And you can then put in a completely different weapon with a different feed mechanism and it will somehow make it beltfed without altering that weapon or the ammo bin.
Which makes more sense?
-k
It does't necessarily have to be a belt feed. It could be a really large serpentine clip.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 05:20 PM
I have a bolt action rifle. I install it into a turret with an ammo bin. Magically it now has a 250 round ammo feed.
I take the rifle out. It's still the same unmodified rifle. I now install a Sakura Fubuki into the turret. Since this weapon is loaded from the muzzle, the ammo bin magically adapts to feed the 250 rounds into the tip of the barrel.
I now install a revolver into the turret. Wow! The feed mechanism now somehow loads 250 rounds into the cylinder!
And all this for nearly free! What a deal!
Can you see how silly this is?
Or, y'know, you could go with the interpretation that matches the rest of the rules.
-k
Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 12 2011, 05:27 PM
On a side note: What concealment mod does the MGL-6 grenade launcher pistol have? It says pistol sized, but there's like no drawback to this gun; it doesn't count as short-barreled, and does not fire slower than any other handheld grenade launcher outside of WAR!
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 12 2011, 05:30 PM
Somewhere between -4 (holdout pistol) and +2 (machine pistol). I assume that it is heavy pistol sized (+0) but YMMV.
The drawback is only the small ammo clip compared to other grenade launchers.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 05:32 PM
Away from books, so I can't check the modifier, but best I can tell, the only drawback is that it counts against the upper limit of awesome you can handle. For those that have limits, I mean.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 05:33 PM
It's a 40mm Bullpup Glock! The awesome cannot be measured!
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 12 2011, 05:36 PM
You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas' attack!
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 05:39 PM
The Earthbound reference raises the Awesome level of this thread beyond Hardcore. These are not safe levels for most people.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 05:40 PM
I take the rifle out. It's still the same unmodified rifle. I now install a Sakura Fubuki into the turret. Since this weapon is loaded from the muzzle, the ammo bin magically adapts to feed the 250 rounds into the tip of the barrel.
I now install a revolver into the turret. Wow! The feed mechanism now somehow loads 250 rounds into the cylinder!
And all this for nearly free! What a deal!
Can you see how silly this is?
Or, y'know, you could go with the interpretation that matches the rest of the rules.
-k
Bolt action has been around a very long time so I'm pretty sure there is hardware out there to automate opening the bolt, inserting a round and closing the bolt. Same with the muzzle loader. As for the revolver. Open the cylinder and leave it to the side, a carriage feeds a round out and holds it in front the firing pin and opening at the near end of the barrel. As long as your tolerances are as tight as the cylinder spinning to the correct position your good to go with the revolver. And it isn't nearly free. You are paying at least 1500 for a normal, fixed, external weapon mount. If there is a mechanical process to something, then it can be automated. I can and will find a way to autoload any weapon you would like to put in that mount and I would be willing to bet a lot of them have already been worked out by the weapon mount manufacture. Doesn't do any good to sell a product to a customer if they can't use their weapon on it reasonably easy. If the customer has to go through the trouble of finding a Ballistic Weapons design team when they buy a weapon mount then they will go elsewhere.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 12 2011, 05:41 PM
Safe? There's no such thing as "safe." There's "still running" and there's "dead." You kids these days have to dice everything up into little groups.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 05:45 PM
You are missing the point. Weapon mounts are designed for Automatic weapons that are belt fed. Any other weapons only receive their normal allotment of ammunition, based upon their loadout. Says so right in the description of the Weapon Mount.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 05:49 PM
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 05:55 PM
Then why does the write up specifically say it "holds 250 rounds, belt feed". If it can only add belts or double large round capacity (missiles etc) then why did they say 250 rounds?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 06:00 PM
Because Belt Fed Weapons can chew through a LOT of Ammo in a very short time. It holds 250 Rounds of Belt Fed Ammunition. It the Weapon is NOT Belt fed, it holds the normal amount of ammunition for the weapon. Simple.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 06:05 PM
And my 250 round serpentine large capacity clip in a weapon mount says my Ares Crusader Machine Pistol gets to use it and I've got the Armorer skills to do it.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 06:06 PM
Excep that that modification does not exist, anywhere, in the game. Which has been the point of all this.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 06:07 PM
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 06:11 PM
Thus the Permissive/Restrictive nature of your game world. Armorer skill and maybe some Mechanical Engineering and you've created a 250 round large capacity clip that fits in the belt hopper of your weapon mount.
Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 12 2011, 06:11 PM
While you're at it, slap on an underbarrel shotgun for the lulz. With an ammo bin
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 06:13 PM
One of the funniest things I saw, off topic I admit, was an Indian development for the Bren Machine Gun that made it a belt-fed weapon rather than a magazine-feed. It just looked really, really weird, as the gunner's assistant had to hold the belt up in the air to keep it tight.
Posted by: Bigity Aug 12 2011, 06:13 PM
And then you get to buy a new hand.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 06:15 PM
Well, Wedge liked his new shoulder, you'll probably like your new hand better anyhow!
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 06:16 PM
Tis in a weapon mount in a drone or vehicle
Might mar the paint job a little..
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 06:17 PM
Well, sure, when bolt-action was the thing, they came up with a way to automate the process. So was born the semi-automatic and automatic weapon. If you want 250 rounds of continuous fire, you need to use a weapon designed to fire continuously. It's a lot cheaper and easier than trying to modify a weapon that is a single-shot or small magazine design to handle it. Safer, too.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 06:17 PM
Might mar the paint job a little..
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 06:18 PM
And the rules as written say that you can fit up to a LMG into a weapon mount. So to extend our sillyness your going to put an Ingrim LMG on a Lockheed Optic-X small drone huh?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 06:28 PM
Which is where common sense comes in. For the Optic -X, you use an SMG with Expanded Clip (50 Rounds), or an MGL-6 Grenade Launcher (Pistol Sized)... More than enough.
Posted by: Erik Baird Aug 12 2011, 06:34 PM
For SR3 (R3 136), a weapon not designed specifically as a vehicle weapon requires a conversion kit for use in a vehicle turret or on a fixed mount. I always figgered this took care of the "belt feed" question since a belt feed doesn't necessarily have to have a cloth or metal belt; it can also be a sort of conveyor system like that used on an A-10 that just gets the ammo to where it needs to be.
Was the conversion kit ditched in SR4?
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 06:35 PM
But that is not the rule as written. Common sense says I can make a 250 round large capacity clip and connect it to that SMG or MP.
Posted by: suoq Aug 12 2011, 06:57 PM
No. No it doesn't.
Putting 250 bullets in a magazine (I don't care what the game calls it) and having them smoothly fed into an unmodified SMG or MP at an appropriate speed strikes me as a non-trivial engineering problem.
The largest capacity I'm aware of is the 33 round magazines for Glocks (made famous in the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords). Building a 250 round magazine is going to require a good chunk of prototyping and testing, and that's assuming the gun can fire off 250 rounds in a row without issues such as overheating, jamming, etc. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN37kkiMMAc )
Posted by: suoq Aug 12 2011, 06:57 PM
cursed double posting...
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 06:57 PM
Considering creations like the 100-round drum magazine for the old Thompson M1921, and the new modern Beta C-Mags for STANAG 4179 compatible Assault Rifles (If they work, reliability appears to be debatable I hear.).
Working on a larger magazine wouldn't be that too hard an issue. And you wouldn't need to strengthen the magazine well like you would for the actual mod in Arsenal in order to handle the weight as that would be held by the Drone/Vehicle itself. ... Possibilities.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 06:58 PM
Seriously I think trying to argue with common sense, against bad RAW or anything like that will just produce more problems.
Personally:
If you start arguing that bad RAW should be ignored, well... there's so MUCH of that.
If you say things don't work as they should - even by accepted RAW, well... you've just opened a can of worms.
And once I'm there then I can basically ignore all the little stupid restrictions in Arsenal, write my own firearm design rules back into the game, etc. Because basically, you actually CAN do anything, it just might get expensive or have problems.
So I can mod any firearms any way I like - I can very easily rework (=exchange) the barrel of the Sporter to allow machinegun usage, make a new receiver, add a loading mechanism, etc. and basically build my own HMG, simply using sport rifle ammo.
Fact of the matter is: SR rules are simply a convention, and as such, I have to house-rule everything that I don't want in that convention. It certainly doesn't make sense for the "magical" ammo bins to add a belt feed, however, it's most certainly not impossible to do so, given a few machining tools, a workshop and maybe a desktop forge. That fact that said mod doesn't exist in the book is, once again, stupid RAW and deserves to be ignored.
Or I can just shut up and read the RAW as RAW and not worry, as long as it doesn't destroy my suspension of disbelief. In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc. So I can very well make a machingun out of my sporter- or indeed out of a pistol, even a revolver.
And as long as that works at my table, that's fine. Tymeaus, what you are advocating is selectively reading the RAW to your own liking. What I am advocating is doing just the same thing (except to my liking). You ignore stupid stuff, I ignore stupid stuff (or at least I'd like to), such as all those restrictions on what mods go in what guns. Or that certain guns "can't ever be modded", have inexchangable parts, etc.
Meh, this post is a mess, but so what, I'm replying to a double standard with a double standard.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 12 2011, 07:11 PM
Putting 250 bullets in a magazine (I don't care what the game calls it) and having them smoothly fed into an unmodified SMG or MP at an appropriate speed strikes me as a non-trivial engineering problem.
The largest capacity I'm aware of is the 33 round magazines for Glocks (made famous in the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords). Building a 250 round magazine is going to require a good chunk of prototyping and testing, and that's assuming the gun can fire off 250 rounds in a row without issues such as overheating, jamming, etc. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN37kkiMMAc )
Actually, the Calico M960 SMG has a cylindrical helical feed magazine of 50 or 100 9mm Parabellum rounds. They used to do a pistol version, M950 IIRC, same basic mechanism, shorter barrel. They do .22 pistols and rifles with similar technology.
Not that its overly relevant, just putting it out there.
M960 with the dual clip mod, 200 rounds right there, can you fit extended mags too? That's 250...
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:21 PM
Only in the USA could a firearm have the "Short" magazine hold 50-rounds and still be called a "Pistol".
EDIT: They're back in business, apparently, BTW.
Posted by: suoq Aug 12 2011, 07:35 PM
Apparently, I need to clarify.
I don't have a problem if a GM allows 5000 round "clips". But don't call it "common sense". Call it what it is, a houserule that works for your table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ZivnRZG5Q is my new hero. 100 rounds in a glock using a double drum magazine.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 07:37 PM
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 07:39 PM
And all of this for a 200 nuyen vehicle modification! Wow!
The Ammo Bin is the one providing the magic ammo-feed technology, not the turret. It only costs 200 nuyen.
If you flip over to the turret rules, it SPECIFICALLY states that only belt-fed weapons get the 250 ammo capacity upgrade.
So, either you have
a) Magic super-adaptable "loads belts into ANYTHING that takes bullets" ammo bins that conflict with the Turret rules,
or
B) the "250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed" line in the Ammo Bin description is meant to say it just adds 250 rounds of belted ammunition, that the Ammo Bin is merely a box to hold the ammo belt, and the description was merely worded badly.
Permissiveness or Restrictiveness has nothing to do with it.
It is not a good idea to assume others game the way you do, so when discussing rules, the base assumption should be that the discussion is about the rules as written, not any custom house rules you might come up with.
If you are heading into "in my game we do things this way" land, the onus is on you to specify as such.
The Arachne I mentioned is as described even smaller than the Optic-X, and it specifically comments that often the weapons that are mounted on it are larger than the drone itself. So I don't see a problem.
-k
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 12 2011, 07:43 PM
So what about favorite mods, beside the inevitable recoil compensation?
I once made a Ruger Super Warhawk with Custom Look 2 - the ultimate scary gun, mostly intended just to threaten people with.
I also like the Cybersafety mob/implant from Augmentation, as an alternative for the rather boring Skinlink. Combine with Trigger Removal and Electronic Firing for a gun that only you can use - and with no trigger, it looks very strange in a Mexican Standoff.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 07:47 PM
Which Modification are you referring to exactly. Because I can guarantee you , it does not actually exist.
Posted by: Miri Aug 12 2011, 07:48 PM
And RAW says I can put a LMG on a small drone.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 07:56 PM
Personally:
If you start arguing that bad RAW should be ignored, well... there's so MUCH of that.
If you say things don't work as they should - even by accepted RAW, well... you've just opened a can of worms.
And once I'm there then I can basically ignore all the little stupid restrictions in Arsenal, write my own firearm design rules back into the game, etc. Because basically, you actually CAN do anything, it just might get expensive or have problems.
So I can mod any firearms any way I like - I can very easily rework (=exchange) the barrel of the Sporter to allow machinegun usage, make a new receiver, add a loading mechanism, etc. and basically build my own HMG, simply using sport rifle ammo.
Fact of the matter is: SR rules are simply a convention, and as such, I have to house-rule everything that I don't want in that convention. It certainly doesn't make sense for the "magical" ammo bins to add a belt feed, however, it's most certainly not impossible to do so, given a few machining tools, a workshop and maybe a desktop forge. That fact that said mod doesn't exist in the book is, once again, stupid RAW and deserves to be ignored.
Or I can just shut up and read the RAW as RAW and not worry, as long as it doesn't destroy my suspension of disbelief. In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc. So I can very well make a machingun out of my sporter- or indeed out of a pistol, even a revolver.
And as long as that works at my table, that's fine. Tymeaus, what you are advocating is selectively reading the RAW to your own liking. What I am advocating is doing just the same thing (except to my liking). You ignore stupid stuff, I ignore stupid stuff (or at least I'd like to), such as all those restrictions on what mods go in what guns. Or that certain guns "can't ever be modded", have inexchangable parts, etc.
Meh, this post is a mess, but so what, I'm replying to a double standard with a double standard.
Weird... I am not selectively reading the RAW on Modifications. I am reading the RAW and applying it as written. You cannot add a 250 round magazine to a pistol. Case Closed. I do not actually ignore the stupid stuff (Emotitoys notwithstanding). Most of it is there for balance (or something). Show me a rule where you can just make any modification willy nilly (other than the right to house-rule at any table) and I will quit commenting on this. Fact is, there is no rule for such equipment in the game, anywhere.
Yes, you can indeed house-rule anything you like, but it is not the Rules from the book. Not arguing your house rule. I am arguing that the modifications being talked about DO NOT EXIST in the game.
I find it funny that you believe that certain things do not exist [b](In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc.)[/b], but they do, there is just no RULE for them. If you do not use such things (Fluff, Flavor, or whatever else you may call it), that is not my issue. Guns get hot when you fire rounds through them. Fire too many, and you melt a barrel. Just because there are no rules for them does not mean that it does not happen.
No worries though. To each his own.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 07:59 PM
As I said above, see the Arachne.
Yes, it ends up looking like a gun with legs. So?
And you know there's a weapon mod that lets a gun fly around like a bumblebee, right?
-k
Posted by: CanRay Aug 12 2011, 08:01 PM
"Hello, I'm a Walking Gunbot, and you're a stranger." *BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM*
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 12 2011, 08:03 PM
Yes, it ends up looking like a gun with legs. So?
And you know there's a weapon mod that lets a gun fly around like a bumblebee, right?
-k
There is? See, this is the kind of stuff I want to know about.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 08:15 PM
The Arachne drone is from WAR. It's more or less a set of spider legs you attach to any weapon of up to LMG size, comes with a drone brain and Gecko Tips so if can crawl around on it's own, even on walls and ceilings, and shoot things for it's master. Or you can possibly just pick up the gun and use it normally.
The Propulsion System weapon mod from Arsenal requires the Pilot Upgrade mod and a smartlink equipped weapon. There are three versions, "limping" which lets the weapon move around slowly, "crawling" which lets it walk around like any other walking drone, and "flying" which gives it limited flight capacity. The Limping and Crawling versions are pretty much superseded by the Arachne drone these days though.
[EDIT]The Flying mod, as Miri helpfully points out, can be duplicated by attaching the weapon to an Optic-X from the core book. So there really is no good reason to use the Propulsion System mod anymore.
-k
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 12 2011, 08:17 PM
The Propulsion System weapon mod requires the Pilot Upgrade mod and a smartlink equipped weapon. There are three versions, "limping" which lets the weapon move around slowly, "crawling" which lets it walk around like any other walking drone, and "flying" which gives it limited flight capacity. The Limping and Crawling versions are pretty much superseded by the Arachne drone these days though.
-k
Indeed, why go through all the trouble of giving the weapon mobility mods when the Arachne Drone is a better deal all around.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 08:51 PM
Spider-gun, Spider-gun,
Has a beltfeed of spider fun
Pops a burst, any size,
Catches targets just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the Spider-gun!
-k
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 12 2011, 09:51 PM
Wasn't it you who said to ignore stupid RAW? I am merely using normal grammar to interpret the rules text, and not interpreting stuff into it which isn't there. It says "adds 250 rounds capacity, belt feed, or...", with a clearly additive connotation on the comma. If they had intended otherwise, they should have written "adds 250 rounds to a belt fed weapon, or", which is just as long. Commas aren't used in the way you interpret that quote.
So, really, the pricing might be wrong, it might not make sense at all, but that sure is what it says.
Well, yes, which is why I find it easy to house-rule them in.
No worries though. To each his own.
If there is no mechanical rule to make these things happen, then it's all in my good will to let them happen. If I blow 10 mags on full-auto through a subgun and the GM then says "your weapon is hot enough to melt", I migth say, "sure enough, but I reload and let fly again", because, as long as I don't glitch, nothing is going to happen. Of course, should I (critically) glitch, it's within the realm of possibility that the gun turns to mush, but that could have happened on the first round fired as well.
Now you can of course dislike that, and I'm inclined to agree that, yes, guns (IRL) DO get very hot. But unless you make a bullet counter that adds up heat like in Battletech or something, then heat isn't a GAME issue, and everyone is free to completely ignore it.
I think this is one of the main problems people have with SR: The game world is far too similar to the real world, so we think things should work the way they do in the real world. However, very often if we really want things to be like that, we actually have to house-rule them, or else the strange mechanics the authors thought up take effect. The authors just forgot to mention that.
Well, anyway, we aren't getting anywhere anymore, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 12 2011, 10:02 PM
In general, if you're talking about a house rule, be specific that you are.
Most folks on the forums will be assuming you're talking about the books, which is perfectly reasonable, as they provide a common point of reference.
-k
Posted by: Faraday Aug 12 2011, 11:45 PM
Reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14cvideo.
As for weapons/mods, I find that tasers a LOT. Always have one around with a laser sight (don't smartlink) and you'll have a totally street legal piece that does 8 stun damage.
-For any actual firearm, I smartlink it if at all possible, usually go for a top-mount.
-Some people dislike longarms, but they have their place. Sporting rifles make great sniping weapons that won't automatically get you arrested if you are caught with one and do nearly as much damage. Internal silencers, slings, and chameleon coating are all great here. Easy breakdown allows you to keep one in a suitcase, ready to go in 2.5-4 initiative passes. (depends on breakdown type and loading mechanism) Note that easy breakdown is still not forbidden.
-Shotguns are hard to hide (unless, again, you use easy breakdown), but they also won't get you arrested on sight if a Cop spots it. Even the full-auto ones.
-The Sakura Fubuki is a burst-fire weapon with a decent-sized clip and very little recoil. Trouble is, it's a muzzle-loader AND costs 2k nuyen. Still a great little number if you focus on making it concealable. Getting it down to a -5 visibility modifier is not difficult. On the other end of the scale is the Ares Slivergun. It's a heavy pistol with a damage code of 8P/+5 AP. The gun absolutely blows at killing drones or vehicles, but shredding up people is second nature. Even against armored goons, the damage code and burst fire rate makes the gun pretty scary for a heavy pistol since it'll most often deal stun damage.
-For a drone-killer in your pocket, bring a Ruger Warhawk loaded with Ex-Explosive rounds. That's 7P/-3 AP damage, which means that a couple net hits will damage pretty much any drone. Making a called shot to increase your damage will usually put you over most hardened vehicle armor.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 12 2011, 11:47 PM
Don't try to blame this on grammar. It works either way, 'grammatically'. It's only when you take into account actual (non-Miri) common sense, the entire rest of the game rules, and balance, that the incredibly obvious correct interpretation emerges. Grammar is neutral.
Posted by: Miri Aug 13 2011, 12:24 AM
And when you use that common sense and wonder.. why the hell can't I use that empty space for the belt hopper to fit cartridge ammo in some kind of feeder mechanism.. you get a 250 round clip for your burst firing Machine Pistol/Heavy Pistol. And it isn't obvious, Weapon mount says one thing, Ammo Bin says another.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/comma
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 12:36 AM
The ratio of helpful info to petty bickering in my thread is getting alarming.
Miri, no one is going to buy the idea that a weapon gains a magical belt feed system that only takes a couple minutes to install and uninstall when you put it on a weapon mount, even if it is a single-shot weapon otherwise. That's not the sensible interpretation. You do what you want, but for the purposes of this thread, let's drop this line of discussion and assume that the only weapons that get the belt-fed ammo are the ones designed to be belt-fed.
EDIT: Brainpiercing, the same thing. The bit you quoted is most reasonably interpreted as 250 rounds in a belt feed format. If it added belt feed capacity to the weapon, I would expect a little more verbage along those lines.
Not that I WANT you to be wrong. A belt-fed Thunderstruck on a blimp would be sweet. Just doesn't seem plausible.
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 13 2011, 01:02 AM
Welcome to Dumpshock! Or any other online forum, for that matter.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 01:15 AM
Yeah, I know. It's just that more than half the posts have been arguing about a point that is clarified on another page into something plausible, considering how firearms work. Why not devote the energy into talking about how to best put holes in things?
Posted by: Miri Aug 13 2011, 01:15 AM
Very well. I will just leave you with this.
Relevant portion starts at 0:49.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 01:22 AM
Cool. Thanks. Seems like a magazine substitution mod for the belt feed bin wouldn't be at all unreasonable a homebrew. Suspected that might be the case. A single-shot or revolver, on the other hand...
Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 01:38 AM
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 13 2011, 01:39 AM
If there's one thing an enterprising hole-maker wants to remember is Arsenal p150. It's the list of which Recoil Compensators work together.
(And if you don't have enough RC then use a Gyro Harness. Actually, even if you have enough, a Gyro Harness also removes movement modifiers which is cool. Try to shoot for, ahem, an RC of 5 on the gun itself so that even at Full Auto on a run you'll have RC 11 or no modifiers: at least for moving and shooting.)
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 13 2011, 01:46 AM
Relevant portion starts at 0:49.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI
And under Shadowrun rules, those would be Weapon Mods, not Vehicle Mods.
You can indeed increase ammo capacity by installing the various Weapon Mods. That is fine.
But a 200 nuyen Ammo Bin cannot magically feed 250 rounds of ammo to any weapon in the game that fires bullets regardless of their existing feed mechanism. That is all.
Heck, under the "ammo bin gives any bullet-based weapon 250 round ammo capacity" interpretation, you could insert the single shot Gun Cane into the system and somehow it would work. And THAT gun is reloaded by taking it apart.
The Ammo Bin is a box.
-k
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 01:51 AM
That subtopic is over. Please stop talking about it.
Posted by: Faraday Aug 13 2011, 02:54 AM
Gyrostabilization harnesses are awesome and all, but they're kinda bulky and it's slow to swap weapons. Cyberarm gyromounts only provide 3 RC, but you still get the movement modifiers negated without the inconvenience or obviousness of wearing a full-body harness.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 13 2011, 04:41 AM
It's like a really, really slow gatling gun!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 05:09 AM
So, cyberarm with gyromounts for unAwakened gun enthusiasts, harness for those with both mojo and the desire to shoot things. That sound right?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 05:16 AM
But if you're able to kill things with your mind, why have a Panther Assault Cannon?
...
Adepts being the exception, of course.
Posted by: mmmkay Aug 13 2011, 05:25 AM
As for weapons/mods, I find that tasers a LOT. Always have one around with a laser sight (don't smartlink) and you'll have a totally street legal piece that does 8 stun damage.
The reason you would choose a laser sight over a smartgun system is that laser sights keep the taser unrestricted? How easy would it be to determine a taser is a smartgun and therefore requires a license to own? For that matter how hard would it be to observe the internal modifications of any gun? If I looked at your taser with an internal silencer, would I know that it's forbidden immediately if I knew it had a silencer or would I even be able to tell if it had a silencer inside it in the first place?
If I plan on using tracer rounds, then a laser sight works better overall. Although there are a lot of benefits to switching ammo, reloading and such that are obtained when using a smartgun system.
-Shotguns are hard to hide (unless, again, you use easy breakdown), but they also won't get you arrested on sight if a Cop spots it. Even the full-auto ones.
How easy is it to spot a broken down weapon? Heavy pistols are apparently capable of being worn as jewelry, but the perception threshold was never mentioned. Presumably it is less than 4.
The Sakura Fubuki is a light pistol so it already has -2 concealability. Did you mean barrel reduction for concealability -3 and a concealed holster for -5 total? Or were you thinking chameleon coating and other stuff? I thought the Ares Viper Silvergun had a damage code of 8P/+2 AP, but perhaps that is a typo? I always thought that was a super cool flechette gun if it had an innate -3 AP. Was this errata'd or something? I thought I was up to date.
I like the image that comes to mind when I think of this.
I would like to thank Marwynn, suoq, Faraday, and especially UmaroVI for their detailed posts on firearms. I literally quadrupled my understanding of what makes a firearm good or relevant, since I seemed to be unaware that I was uneducated about the matter beforehand. Thanks again.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 05:33 AM
I introduced Lone Star officers with Ruger Thunderhawks, and my group was "JESUSALLAHBUDDHA, WTF WAS THAT?"
No mods necessary. And they were just regular beat cops right out of a squad car.
Posted by: Marwynn Aug 13 2011, 06:44 AM
Swap weapons? I have never ever swapped guns on a harness while on a run. Hell, there are some runners out there who haven't even reloaded on a run before, but that's beside the point.
It is quite visible and it's not something you bring with you on every run, unless you're the armed backup guy (aka Plan B). Of course, you could cover it up with ruthenium coating, along with the weapon itself, and you wouldn't care less about how bulky it is.
Gyromounts are not exactly a convenient alternative. For one thing, you'll need at least a lower arm cyberlimb unless your GM lets you install them in cyberhands. That's essence loss and a rather blatant illegal mod to have to a cyberlimb. You could make it modular, but then if the point is to swap in the gyromount you might as well shrug into a harness.
Harnesses for everyone who wants to carry an SMG or Assault Rifle and do more than Suppressive Fire or short bursts. It's not for those times when you need to be incognito, but then again, why do you need a recoil-heavy weapon when you need subtlety?
For added fun, look up Battle Rifles. Hope my ramblings were of some use. Experiment (on corpsec)!
Posted by: Socinus Aug 13 2011, 07:12 AM
You start to develop special "packages", specific firearms kitted out in specific ways with specific modifications for specific tasks, as you look at the firearm rules.
The P93 Praetor is unmatched as a very portable bullet hose, the Ares Crusader (properly fitted and loaded) can drop an entire room of guards, the Colt Government is a solid sidearm with an excellent clip-size, the Colt M23 is incredibly cheap and can be modified to be anything and everything it's user needs it to be, the Desert Strike can be modified to hit targets further than the character can see, the SPAS-22 is a hard-hitting door breaker, a Morrisey Elan can stealthily drop a troll, and a pair of Defiance EX Shockers can floor the first troll's brother.
It's all about learning what works best for what you need.
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 07:15 AM
I'll do some digging when I get access to my books back - I have nothing in Dead Tree Format, and the manufacturer recently mailed my laptop back to me a second time, and I'm hoping it is actually fixed this time - but from the look of things, the HVBR will be my preferred boomstick for situations and characters lacking subtlety. Power and versatility. I'll have to see what I like in terms of pistols and machine pistols for backup.
And, of course, my understanding of how to most effectively arm drones and vehicles has grown immensely thanks to these threads. Yeah, this is gonna be fun.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 13 2011, 07:57 AM
No mods necessary. And they were just regular beat cops right out of a squad car.
I'm leaning towards one of these as my PCs next gun, but I'm not very happy with a clip of 12 when the weapon can only fire narrow bursts.
That's 4 shots, or 5 if you get an extended clip. Powerful shots, yes, but even so...
***
Does anyone else find the difference between a pistol with a burst fire mode and a machine pistol somewhat arbitary? To my mind, machine pistols should use the pistols skill, if the Thunderhawk does...
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 08:21 AM
Incredibly arbitrary, yes. The way the firearms groups are broken up astonishes me. It gave me a little trouble at first, but eh. It'll do, until there's another edition with its own arbitrary delineation rationale that may or may not attempt to be superior to this one.
Posted by: TheOOB Aug 13 2011, 08:51 AM
I find if you make stick-n-shock for shotguns only, and don't allow war, that each group has their purpose. Pistols is for small, concealable, legal guns, automatics are for the good guns, and longarms are the specialty weapons.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 13 2011, 11:13 AM
That still doesn't address the fact that some pistols with burst fire are in the pistols group, and some pistols with burst fire are in the Automatics group. Surely firing an FN 5-7c is MUCH more similar to firing a Ruger Thunderbolt than firing an Ares HVAR?
Any weapon that has no foregrip and so is used either in one hand or with both hands on the single grip, should use the pistols skill IMO.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 13 2011, 01:34 PM
Any weapon that has no foregrip and so is used either in one hand or with both hands on the single grip, should use the pistols skill IMO.
It's a central problem of basically ALL roleplaying systems that skillsets or proficiencies have arbitrary divisions - just so that not everyone can do everything. If you don't like it, house rule it.
The other completely arbitrary thing is all that restricted/forbidden crap. I mean if corps (and I don't just mean AAAs) can get licenses for these weapons, then there must be fake licenses for them. And for instance, probably half the corpsec of Seattle has 227s, which come with a silencer out of the box. Basically if I don't want to think about what to give any given enemy grunt, I'll give him a 227. But that should be an F gun, right? (And I admit I don't know, because I just use DKs sheet to build opposition, and he only listed availability, not legality for weapons.) So what's the point of this?
If the whole point is just to force you to get a more elaborate fake SIN with MORE fake licenses, then...
Posted by: Neraph Aug 13 2011, 01:38 PM
I've never needed to use either. There are enough mods for recoil compensation you can put on weapons to negate all recoil you could incur.
EDIT:
Wait, what? You do know that: 1) There's a light pistol in the core book that has a 30 round clip. You also mentioned the Ares Crusader, who's 40 round clip is even better. 2) That's only a range of 1.65 kilometers - easily within sight.
Posted by: Socinus Aug 13 2011, 08:12 PM
The Fichetti Security is good, but the Colt Government is a heavy pistol and has better recoil compensation possibilities.
The Crusader is also good, but it's better modified to be a concealable bullet hose.
A rifle, properly modified and wielded by a character with the right qualities, can make shots beyond that range with little negative impact.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 08:20 PM
Except that the Current Record for a confirmed kill with a Modified Rifle (Hunting Rifle adapted Sniper Rifle, so a 7.62 Caliber Bullet) is considerably less than that, sitting at just under 1400 Meters (1375 meters I believe, but I may be off by a few meters or so, performed by an Army Sniper in Iraq). There are no rules in place for you to attempt a shot beyond Extreme Range in game, and often, you will be considerably closer than that due to lines of sight and effect.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 13 2011, 08:42 PM
And that's just a 7.62mm round. The .50 BMG Match Grade is well beyond even that. Although Canada no longer holds that record from what I've heard. 
Posted by: Socinus Aug 13 2011, 08:58 PM
I've had characters attempt a shot from two miles. He missed, but that's beside the point
Posted by: Neraph Aug 14 2011, 04:06 AM
No you can't because that is the maximum range for the gun.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 14 2011, 04:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWhUh8RkRfg&t=7m
-k
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 05:15 AM
I want a 20mm caseless flechette firearm now. For duck hunting.
Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 05:54 AM
Hmm, for un-modded guns (i.e., "I need to stash some guns someplace." or "I need to pick up a gun when I get there" or "I need a gun that can't easily be traced to me") it's really hard to get past the Ares Viper Slivergun. Its integral (and merely restricted! yay!) silencer means that it's suitable for keeping under the radar. In addition, its 8P +5ap damage code means that even before burst fire it's 1P up on a conventional heavy pistol, assuming equal ballistic/impact armor (and impact is often less). Honestly, the only downside is the inability to use stick and shock... but you could just get a taser if you wanted.
Similar fun with legal silencers is had with the Ingram Smartgun X; for those who need an un-modded FA weapon.
My favorite "backup" firearm has got to be my pistol adept's Echiro Hatamoto II (with modded under-barrel Echiro Hatamoto II). This is the gun to pull out when the regular pistol just isn't getting through the armor. Shock lock rounds count as explosive rounds when you aren't using them to open doors! Also good for the lols when using gel rounds to knock over trolls (this is about the only pistol that will have a decent shot at it).
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 06:33 AM
It's been kicked around a bit, but a Panther Assault Cannon with an Underbelly Panther Assault Cannon gives you a nice Over-Under Double-Barreled "Shotgun" for Troll Hillbillies.
Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 06:39 AM
Yeah, I don't think the underbarrel same gun mod is amazingly abusive. It's basically just a more expensive version of getting an extended clip. Only really useful for using different ammo types or for extra style points.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 14 2011, 07:13 AM
Technically, extended clip would be cheaper but not sure it can be applied to internal mags.
Seems silly that they didn't make the weapon double-barrelled in the first place.
****
Its also one of those oddities - why does it get 7P when the other "shotgun pistol" only gets 5P...
****
But thanks for the idea - probably won't use an over-and-under Hatamoto II, but might well stick one under the barrel of a slivergun, for those occasions when I can't do an armour-bypassing called shot.
Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 07:46 AM
Ha! Note that giving an underbarrel mod to a slivergun voids the warranty on one of the best parts about an awesome gun... that you can use it un-modded. Of course, if you don't mind using easily-recognizable weapons, then by all means, go nuts.
"Well officer, he was using a standard nickel-plated slivergun, but it had these built-up looking ebony grips, a blued finish flame pattern on the front half of the slide, oh! and it had what looked like a shotgun barrel machined onto the bottom of the gun in front of the trigger guard."
"So you think you'd recognize the weapon if you saw it again?"
"Hell, I'm thinking of having one made for myself... Why yes, I do have Ares corporate citizenship, why do you ask?"
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 14 2011, 09:53 AM
"Well officer, he was using a standard nickel-plated slivergun, but it had these built-up looking ebony grips, a blued finish flame pattern on the front half of the slide, oh! and it had what looked like a shotgun barrel machined onto the bottom of the gun in front of the trigger guard."
"So you think you'd recognize the weapon if you saw it again?"
"Hell, I'm thinking of having one made for myself... Why yes, I do have Ares corporate citizenship, why do you ask?"
If I'm pulling out the slivergun on a job, I don't intend to leave any witnesses
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 11:32 AM
I certainly wouldn't allow a Hatamoto under a slivergun… it's bigger, facrissake. Also, I typically follow the rules: "This mod is generally only available for longarms, machine guns, and assault cannons." You're right that the cost, Conceal penalty, ammo and RC penalties, etc. make it a general non-abusive choice.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 14 2011, 11:44 AM
Both are heavy pistols, and no scale is given on the pics. Most of the pic of the Hamamoto seems to be furniture rather than mechanism.
That, however, is a valid argument. Of course, it voids the original Hamamoto/Hamamoto idea too.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 11:52 AM
I dunno anything about separating the 'real gun' from the 'furniture', but the Hatamoto is clearly big. It has a shoulder stock on there for scale… plus is has a shoulder stock. Theoretically that means it needs it, being a big ol' punch.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 14 2011, 02:17 PM
The illustration has a shoulder stock, the description says nothing about such a thing. So its clearly sold without one.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 14 2011, 02:17 PM
I haven't clicked on the link and I know exactly what movie that is. I AM THE LAW!
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 02:41 PM
No, he's a poser who took off his helmet.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 14 2011, 08:55 PM
I second the Slivergun, +AP isn't so bad if the damage is high enough. And it actually cheats with the damage code, too, it should be at 7P/+4.
So it's really at +1.33 damage, but as was mentioned the stun track is usually at least one box shorter... unbeatable for a HPist. Attach some cheap mods for RC and you have an amazing gun.
(Now this was posted about a few hours too late, duh...)
Posted by: Neraph Aug 15 2011, 04:12 AM
One of my alltime favorites is the Fichetti Security 600 loaded with SnS. It's basically a taser with a 30 round clip.
Posted by: Faraday Aug 15 2011, 08:08 AM
One of my favorite guns for use with a gyromount is the Ares Slivergun, since it's got burst fire, sound suppression, and no recoil compensation on its own. A cyberarm gyromount largely fills the RC gap without resorting to a gas vent which would prevent the use of the sound suppressor.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 15 2011, 08:23 AM
Yeah, that's one awesome gun.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 11:45 AM
And in doing so they kept one mistake and added another...
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 15 2011, 01:58 PM
Unless you allow Armor Piercing Flechette (from WAR!) ammo in the Slivergun, it's not very good; the Ruger Thunderbolt is generally a better weapon (with Ex-explosive, the thunderbolt is 7p/-2 and can fire only narrow, versus 8p/+5; 7 armor is worth about 2.33 DV). The slivergun does have the nice ability to fire wide burstfire that no other pistol gets; I could see it as a good choice for someone who wasn't very good with pistols and wanted the extra accuracy.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 15 2011, 02:27 PM
No other pistol?
Posted by: Miri Aug 15 2011, 02:36 PM
Is that taking into account the usually lower Impact rating on armor?
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 15 2011, 02:54 PM
How about as a good choice for somebody that likes to do called shots to avoid armour?
Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 15 2011, 03:18 PM
There's a very narrow range where called shots to avoid armor isn't a bad move. You should almost always call shots to increase DV, unless your target had such little armor that it doesn't really matter. If your target has, say, 6 armor, you could take -6 to hit for -11 armor (worth a bit less than 4 DV)... or -4 to hit for +4 DV.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 03:19 PM
I think it's an arbitrary restriction on the off-the shelf burst-fire pistols. Well... it's easy enough to mod any pistol to BF, but it's expensive nonetheless.
If you assume 2 less impact, and 1 fewer box (although an average human will have 10/10 boxes, average metas are quickly at 11/10), I would estimate things like this:
The Thunderbolt using Ex-Ex with a narrow burst is at 8P/-2, vs Ballistic, so effectively at 8.66P. Due to base damage (6P) and -2 AP you are probably doing physical damage (vs an armoured jacket with 5/3).
The Tbolt using Flechette is at 7P/+4 vs Impact, using narrow bursts 9P/+4. With the above considerations doing S damage (7P base vs an 3+4 Impact), this becomes 10S/+2, which equals 9.33S.
The Slivergun with a narrow burst is at 10P/+5 base. Due to the base damage of 8P and +5AP you are likely (hopefully) doing S damage, so the damage effectively becomes 11S/+3 (1 fewer box, 2 less impact), which is exactly 10S. If you roll too well, you lose that advantage, or you have to hope that your enemies have more armour.
For wide bursts the Sliver is at 8P/+5 with a def mod of -2, which is basically 8.66P/+5; Modified as above that's 9.66S/+3, which translates to about 8.66S.
What this ignores is the possibility of the narrow burst not hitting at all, or the wide burst getting too many hits to still deal S damage. But for the present case, this is the exact same damage as the Tbolt using Ex-Ex, and the narrow-burst Sliver is actually better.
Of course, this all hinges on the hope that the opponents are wearing enough impact armour that you won't be doing P damage, but are wearing even more Ballistic armour.
Do note that only the Slivergun is actually better than a regular gun using Ex-Ex, because its flechettes are actually +3/+6AP (for an effective +1DV), while regular flechettes are +2/+5AP, for an effective +0.33.
However, the Tbolt is the clearly better gun for every occasion where you don't need a silencer, only it's clip size is problematic. The narrow burst problem can be solved with a Full-auto mod, and it can get a ton of RC easily.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 15 2011, 03:30 PM
I think he's pointing out that people are only talking about BF pistols (me excluded). What happened to the Second Law of Running The Shadows? BF and FA are surefire (no pun intended) ways to not "Conserve Ammo"...
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 03:32 PM
If you assume 2 less impact, and 1 fewer box (although an average human will have 10/10 boxes, average metas are quickly at 11/10), I would estimate things like this:
The Thunderbolt using Ex-Ex with a narrow burst is at 8P/-2, vs Ballistic, so effectively at 8.66P. Due to base damage (6P) and -2 AP you are probably doing physical damage (vs an armoured jacket with 5/3).
The Tbolt using Flechette is at 7P/+4 vs Impact, using narrow bursts 9P/+4. With the above considerations doing S damage (7P base vs an 3+4 Impact), this becomes 10S/+2, which equals 9.33S.
The Slivergun with a narrow burst is at 10P/+5 base. Due to the base damage of 8P and +5AP you are likely (hopefully) doing S damage, so the damage effectively becomes 11S/+3 (1 fewer box, 2 less impact), which is exactly 10S. If you roll too well, you lose that advantage, or you have to hope that your enemies have more armour.
For wide bursts the Sliver is at 8P/+5 with a def mod of -2, which is basically 8.66P/+5; Modified as above that's 9.66S/+3, which translates to about 8.66S.
What this ignores is the possibility of the narrow burst not hitting at all, or the wide burst getting too many hits to still deal S damage. But for the present case, this is the exact same damage as the Tbolt using Ex-Ex, and the narrow-burst Sliver is actually better.
Of course, this all hinges on the hope that the opponents are wearing enough impact armour that you won't be doing P damage, but are wearing even more Ballistic armour.
Do note that only the Slivergun is actually better than a regular gun using Ex-Ex, because its flechettes are actually +3/+6AP (for an effective +1DV), while regular flechettes are +2/+5AP, for an effective +0.33.
However, the Tbolt is the clearly better gun for every occasion where you don't need a silencer, only it's clip size is problematic. The narrow burst problem can be solved with a Full-auto mod, and it can get a ton of RC easily.
What? Who cares if you get too many hits. Flechettes are opposed by Impact armor, and do Physical Damage normally. More net hits equates to more damage overall.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 03:39 PM
Yes, but one of the quoted advantages of flechettes is that the +AP will more reliably make you do stun damage - and most "brute" type enemies have a shorter stun track. That one box less on the stun track equates to one full point of DV more.
So instead of being worse than Ex-Ex, they end up equal by default against armoured enemies.
+1/-1 (+1.33DV) vs +3/+5 (+1.33 DV)
And the sliver effectively does +4/+6, which equals +2 DV.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 03:53 PM
So instead of being worse than Ex-Ex, they end up equal by default against armoured enemies.
+1/-1 (+1.33DV) vs +3/+5 (+1.33 DV)
And the sliver effectively does +4/+6, which equals +2 DV.
I'm Sorry, the quoted advantage that I use is that it will totally shred anything that it hits (especially UNARMORED TARGETS, who get no benefit of the +5 Armor Modification), for the most part. That is the advantage of a Flechette Gun. I don't think that I have ever seen eanyone tout the NON-LETHAL capabilities of the Flechette Gun.
Posted by: Miri Aug 15 2011, 03:54 PM
Put standard ammo into the Slivergun.. 6P -0AP with Burstfire. *shrug*
Posted by: Neraph Aug 15 2011, 03:58 PM
+5 armor will give unarmored opponents 5 armor.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:58 PM
Posted by: Miri Aug 15 2011, 04:00 PM
Sure it can. The write up doesn't specifically say it can only use Flichette ammo (like the Mossberg shotgun write up) and you can put flichette ammo into any other Pistol. Ergo.. can put standard ammo into the Ares Slivergun.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 15 2011, 04:06 PM
In internet speak.... lolwut
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 15 2011, 04:16 PM
That's utterly ridiculous... but true, if you ignore fluff in favour of mechanics. Wow.
What's actually missing from the gear list is sliver ammo, since fluff wise its ammo only "counts as" flechette, it isn't *actually* flechette.
In the absense of that... it would appear to use normal ammo...?
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 15 2011, 04:26 PM
No it does not. It boost Armor, IF YOU HAVE IT. Against Unarmored Skin, it adds nothing.
Here is a Quote:
A weapon’s Armor Penetration (AP) represents its penetrating ability— its ability to pierce armor. AP modifies a target’s Armor rating when
he makes a damage resistance test. Some weapons fare poorly against armor, and so actually raise the value of the armor—if the target is not
wearing armor, however, this bonus does not apply.
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 15 2011, 04:42 PM
Which makes flechette surprisingly good against spirits, which don't technically have armor, just Force*2 soak.
Posted by: Zaranthan Aug 15 2011, 05:27 PM
Immunity to Normal Weapons is treated as armor, plus many of them actually have the Armor power.
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 15 2011, 05:41 PM
I had always thought that ItNW was just the (*2) part?
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 15 2011, 05:46 PM
Going back to overlooked stuff, don't know if anyone has pointed out the advantages of very cheap guns like the Colt L36 (150)
Very cheap doesn't mean much. necessarily, except for those mods where the price of the mod is based on the price of the gun.
You can slap an additional clip and an internal smartgun system on these weapons and they still come out cheaper than some of the competition.
Smart, Twin Clip Colt L36: 18 rounds, 450 Yen
MAD Undetectable Colt L36: 11 rounds, 1050 Yen (ok, that's not such a bargain - the puzzler is only 900 and is considerably better)
Underwater Colt L36 600 Yen - not that this includes electronic firing, which normally costs 1000 on its own.
Posted by: Miri Aug 15 2011, 05:54 PM
Very cheap doesn't mean much. necessarily, except for those mods where the price of the mod is based on the price of the gun.
You can slap an additional clip and an internal smartgun system on these weapons and they still come out cheaper than some of the competition.
Smart, Twin Clip Colt L36: 18 rounds, 450 Yen
MAD Undetectable Colt L36: 11 rounds, 1050 Yen (ok, that's not such a bargain - the puzzler is only 900 and is considerably better)
Underwater Colt L36 600 Yen - not that this includes electronic firing, which normally costs 1000 on its own.
Interesting, I will have to keep that in mind for the future.
Posted by: Neraph Aug 15 2011, 06:48 PM
Here is a Quote:
My dusty memory didn't include that last line.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 15 2011, 09:06 PM
Time to upgrade, dood.
-k
Posted by: Traul Aug 15 2011, 09:13 PM
What's actually missing from the gear list is sliver ammo, since fluff wise its ammo only "counts as" flechette, it isn't *actually* flechette.
In the absense of that... it would appear to use normal ammo...?
At the core of the gun is a grinder that turns the bullets into flechette. It can also make great coffee
Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 15 2011, 09:15 PM
Use one that has never been fired, unless you have a hankerin' for a mocha shrapnel latte.
Posted by: Miri Aug 15 2011, 09:30 PM
You sure about that? Cause all my Sliverguns use either cased flichettes (much like small shotgun rounds) or, since I prefer Caseless ammo (less ballistics evidence for them), the flichettes are "baked" into the propellant much like regular slugs are.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 10:38 PM
Hmm... people accuse me of misinterpreting the RAW in a stupid way, but...
Seriously, if the gun says it fires flechettes, then... it should fire flechettes. Especially when it cheats, already, there is no need to remove that. Give a gun some individuality, hell knows that once you take away cost and availability the things are similar enough.
Here's another snipped, from the Flechette ammo descripion, which implies that actual flechette ammo is used:
Code have an (f ) notation following the Damage Code.
So I guess that means we actually have to pay 10nY a pop, even from the slivergun. I had just thought that we could get away with only paying 2.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 15 2011, 10:54 PM
Seriously, if the gun says it fires flechettes, then... it should fire flechettes. Especially when it cheats, already, there is no need to remove that. Give a gun some individuality, hell knows that once you take away cost and availability the things are similar enough.
Here's another snipped, from the Flechette ammo descripion, which implies that actual flechette ammo is used:
So I guess that means we actually have to pay 10nY a pop, even from the slivergun. I had just thought that we could get away with only paying 2.
.
Well, that's the thing. The gun description *doesn't* say it fires flechettes, it says it fires "metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition". Now, my interpretation of the RAI is that it can *only* fire that special ammo, but whilst that special ammo is not included in the equipment lists its probably a fair assumption that it costs the same as normal flechette ammo, for the sake of argument.
Now, me, personally, I figure it fires a stream of tiny needles at such a rapid pace that the needle-cloud is to all intents and purposes just like flechette, even though it isn't, and cannot load any other ammo type. (No idea what propellant it uses, sci-fi needle guns are usually compressed air or gaus, hence why the weapon is silent, but no mention is made of this). However, if it is considered to take *actual* flechette ammo, then as Miri points out, there is nothing in the RAW to say that you can't load it with any other ammo type.
Posted by: Erik Baird Aug 15 2011, 11:35 PM
Call it a rewrite when CGL should've settled for a copy-and-paste.
SR3 states:
Ares Viper Slivergun: This pistol fires flechette ammunition (which is already factored into its Damage Code). It has the range of a heavy pistol and features a built-in silencer (p277).
Realistically, it probably should be able to fire standard ball ammunition, but that's the trade-off for having a 30-round magazine. I always thought of it as using a non-standard caliber.
Posted by: Lantzer Aug 16 2011, 12:22 AM
I wish I had the gauss rifle from Syndicate.
It was a long-range high damage weapon, that I didn't read the blurb on very thouroughly. I thought it was a sniping weapon. So for a political assassination, I stood my team behind the crowd and shot the target at the podium.
The blast wave ploughed a wide lane down the middle of the crowd, terminating in a big explosion that killed everyone on the dias. After blinking for a few seconds, I escaped as dozens of screaming, burning civilians ran every which way.
I loved that gun.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 12:31 AM
Took out the politico and a good size of his voting pool in one shot. Nice job!
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 02:28 AM
Yes, the Slivergun can only fire its own special ammo (which 'counts as flechette').
Posted by: Miri Aug 16 2011, 02:48 AM
Book and Page number that says that please? Cause I have looked and looked and can not find it anywhere it says that.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 03:18 AM
SR4A, Page 317. Right in the description of the weapon.
Seems pretty self explanatory to me.
Posted by: Miri Aug 16 2011, 03:23 AM
Seems pretty self explanatory to me.
That is not the same as "May only fire flichette ammo" as the writeup of the Mossburg shotgun has.
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 16 2011, 03:45 AM
The Viper has been listed as 'fires flichette ammo' in 4 editions now. Or go back a decade, pull out your Cannon Companion, and turn to page 75 where 'slivergun' is defined. "Rather than firing bullets, it fires only flichette ammunition." The rule system may have changed since then, but the definitions haven't.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 03:48 AM
Don't forget that not everyone has those books. I only have copies of the 1st Edition rules because I got them used at a Con in town.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 04:36 AM
I dunno why people are always looking for the overtly evil loopholes. The Slivergun is rightly praised for being a heavy pistol with great ammo cap, burst fire, and silencing, right out of the box, for a reasonable price. To remove its only tradeoff is just mad. If it sounds too good to be true, *it is*.
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 16 2011, 04:37 AM
The Slivergun is rightly praised for being a heavy pistol with great ammo cap, burst fire, and silencing, right out of the box, for a reasonable price. To remove its only tradeoff is just mad. If it sounds too good to be true, *it is*.Some people want that one perfect tool that can do everything. Personally, I think perfection is boring. Give me something with a little more character.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 04:41 AM
That's why I like the AK-97. It's got character, is reliable, dependable, and if you lose one, another one won't break the bank.
And, if problems occur, you can use it as a club.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 04:47 AM
I mean, that tool does exist, PeteThe1. A Crusader, a Smartgun X/P93, or an Alpha/88V can all be modded up to 11 for under 5 grand (which is nothing). It's just that the Slivergun does have character, like you say, because it's the only gun that specially and solely shoots little slivers.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 04:48 AM
Or you can get a gun that makes people little slivers. It's called the Panther Assault Cannon.
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 16 2011, 05:13 AM
I meant more that if the Viper did allow regular ammo, it would then be boringly perfect. As is, I have no use for the thing, because I like having the non-lethal option available. Plus I imagine that, legal or not, police would doubly look over anyone carrying one, since its a weapon best suited for turning civilians into a red mess.
Back to the original topic I tend to pick specific weapon models based on the character, but classes are pretty universal. A light pistol for dress duty or situations when you're supposed to be armed but don't want to lug around a hand cannon. A heavy pistol for nearly everything else. A SMG when you need precision autofire but at closer ranges, and having some concealability is still important. And an AR when its open field, long range, and subtlety be damned.
Posted by: Faraday Aug 16 2011, 08:10 AM
Back to the original topic I tend to pick specific weapon models based on the character, but classes are pretty universal. A light pistol for dress duty or situations when you're supposed to be armed but don't want to lug around a hand cannon. A heavy pistol for nearly everything else. A SMG when you need precision autofire but at closer ranges, and having some concealability is still important. And an AR when its open field, long range, and subtlety be damned.
Don't forget tasers. Those tend to be on par (overall) with light pistols as far as non-combat situations are concerned, but really do a number on living creatures.
Also, don't forget hunting rifles. Those tend to do as much damage as an assault rifle in burst fire mode but with a better range. They aren't any easier to hide, but you won't raise nearly as many eyebrows when you're carting one in your vehicle.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 16 2011, 12:50 PM
Sorry for bringing this up again: Of course what you say is perfectly true. But as a runner you would want to look at ALL the advantages - and while you are not specifically TRYING for the non-lethal option, the ability to reliably dish out stun to armoured opponents IS an advantage. And you're possibly doing more damage than with Gel rounds.
Gel are -/+2, so using my above considerations they end up at +1/-, exactly +1 DV, which is actually worse at dishing out stun damage than the Slivergun, but better than regular flechettes.
This is mechanics at work, and it also fits the fluff, as long as you count the P to S conversion as fluff as well.
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