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Posted by: mmmkay Aug 13 2011, 09:34 AM

Is it possible for the defiance ex shocker (pg. 316 SR4a) to undergo a Firing Selection Change (pg. 149, 151 Arsenal)? If not, why and what are the limitations of firing selection change more explicitly than "no exotic ammunition or unusual loading mechanisms" (like list the unusual ones)? If so, then what is your most pimped out defiance ex shocker and would it be possible to inspect the taser to determine that it is no longer unrestricted?

Posted by: Mäx Aug 13 2011, 10:24 AM

I would say definedly no, as it pretty much covered by both of those limitations.
Just get a second one to circumvent the limitations of SS firing mode

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 13 2011, 11:37 AM

I'd say sure, go for it.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 01:03 PM

Why aren't you just using a Crusader with SnS?

Posted by: Mäx Aug 13 2011, 01:14 PM

because it's not completdly unresricted piece like the tasers are.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 01:33 PM

Not with Firing Selection, it's not.

Posted by: mmmkay Aug 13 2011, 01:48 PM

but who'd be the wiser?

jeez guys I had a sequence of questions

what are the unusual loading mechanisms? what counts as exotic ammo?

Posted by: Summerstorm Aug 13 2011, 02:05 PM

Unsusal loading: anything but clips and mags
Exotic: anything but standard bullets (as the possible type)

That's how i see it. Clean and simple.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 02:08 PM

Ditto. 'If you have to ask, it's exotic/unusual.'

Posted by: mmmkay Aug 13 2011, 02:33 PM

Well the Defiance Ex Shocker has it's taser darts stored in an internal magazine. Mags are apparently usual, so I guess the issue is that darts are exotic. I wouldn't use the words exotic to describe darts, whereas I would use the word exotic to describe pain inducer ammo. If it's listed under a normal ammo list I wouldn't say it's exotic, whereas the pain inducer has "special" ammo (literally listed as special). Additionally tasers are not listed under any exotic heading, whereas flamethrowers first instance are listed under exotic weapons in Arsenal.

Well anyways, I've half convinced myself of this being reasonable. I've scoured Arsenal, but I'm interested in finding out how easy it is to perceive certain internal weapon modifications (for instance small mod firing selection change).

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 02:39 PM

Hehe, you shouldn't have to convince yourself. That's called rationalization, you do it when you *want* to believe something you *know* is wrong.

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 03:01 PM

1) Whatever we have, it's a house rule, since RAW is vague.
2) And if you're going to ask "who'd be the wiser" then you're going to argue with our houserules.

So, why are you asking?

Note: I find it perfectly reasonable that:
1) A teaser is an electronic device.
2) So it's on your PAN, even if you don't have a smartlink
3) And in many areas your commlink is on active.
4) So everything on your PAN is readable by the authorities in those areas.
5) So you either have to be doing some electronic "lying" about your gun (which being a Shadowrunner is par for the course) or they know the Shocker ain't standard.

Posted by: mmmkay Aug 13 2011, 03:09 PM

This is a thought experiment. If it is possible to use weapons that appear unrestricted then that'd be kinda cool. Unfortunately SS is kinda limiting. Also the Crusader is comparatively more noticeable.



If you read my post you would be aware that I do not know how obvious an unrestricted item with a restricted modification is.



That is not the only question I am asking. See my previous post on the reasoning behind why the loading mechanism is just fine, but the ammo may or may not be (by example I would say they are not, by concept I would say they are not, but I have some doubts because a bullet is not a taser dart and 95% of Arsenal involves bullets).



Hehe, and this post is proof you are a troll. I convince myself that the loading mechanism is fine, but did not completely convince myself that the ammo is fine. Thus using the term half convinced was quite literal.



I don't know what I've done to incur dumpshocks' wrath today, but I find it offensive that two people who I do not know are making claims about my persona. Suoq you for the most part seem to be a reasonable non-troll. If I say something like "but who'd be the wiser?", which was short hand for a question I was interested in before, don't believe I'm trying to sneak cookies from the cookie jar. I literally am interested in knowing how people would figure such things out. Can you inspect a taser and SEE the change. Can you scan PANS and determine it that way. That kind of thing. What are the options. I don't know and I'm literally trying to find out.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 03:23 PM

mmmkay, not all of my comments are directed at you. Two of those were for Mäx and Summerstorm. It's *our* thread.

As for the 'troll' bit, I can't see how the fraction of convincing (literal or otherwise) is relevant to my comment. I said that you shouldn't have to convince yourself, period. It's a general rule. No one said anything about your 'persona', and I really doubt anyone cares.

Hacking into someone's PAN to find out if their taser has SA mode seems… excessive. Secure, Active-mode zones might require that you offer up that access and info 'for free', of course (as suoq explained). There are no real rules for visually detecting weapon mods; the GM should do things that are reasonable, but who knows what that means for a taser? Detailed inspection (possibly involving Armorer skill) could certainly detect most modifications.

Restricted-legality items are basically ignorable anyway, so I'm not sure why anyone would care—only F matters. If you're trying to be subtle, the mega-taser is already a clue for whoever's looking. You can claim it's for self-defense, sure, but so are guns and things. In my games, that's just splitting hairs.

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 03:46 PM

The problem is that you want a definite consensus on an opinion and you're willing to insult people whose answers you don't like.

As far as my personal rules on inspecting a taser and seeing the change, my question is "How the heck do they get 4 shots in a TASER in the first place?" I have no clue HOW a Shadowrun taser works. Maybe it has 4 cartridges in a row on the front. I don't know. Then there's a question of current down the wires. If you were firing in burst mode would you need a power supply that sent power down ALL the lines at the same time? Would that be a noticeable change? When the next cartridge is loaded, does it toss the wires for the previous cartridge, making burst fire impossible without major modifications. (Shooting someone and then disconnecting the unit before frying them is not effective....)

Note that this lack of detail is commonplace. For example, the modification rules (PG 128 Arsenal) talk about "re-chambering a pistol to take a different caliber" which makes no sense from a RAW standpoint since caliber only exists in fluff and house rules. Clearly, in-fluff, caliber exists, but there is no RAW reason to change the caliber of a weapon, ever.

Edit: Just learned something. http://www.taserx3.com/ has multi-shot tasers. 3 shots, rotates the pulses across the cartridge bays at 45 times a second. Cool. You can decide for yourself if you should be able to burst fire such a device.

Posted by: Traul Aug 13 2011, 03:58 PM

I don't see the link here. An active commlink broadcats your SIN and some other information if you want to, but I don't see why it should give access to your peripherals.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 04:08 PM

It does if they require it, that's all. Some do. Most runners don't hang out in the 1984 areas in the first place.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 04:18 PM

While I don't think there's rules or anything saying what info is public in Active Mode, I don't think it includes "what have you got in your pockets?" I don't think that's information a lot of people want to share with complete strangers. Although, there are social networking friend request forums in today's world. Maybe I'm underestimating people's desire for attention.

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 04:23 PM

SR4A Pg 223

Unwired, pg 48 talks about Peripheral nodes and slaving. It also has a note about them not getting the -6 that I never noticed before. Interesting. That rules suddenly makes skinlink attractive to me again.I may need to get some work done on my character's gear.

While I agree with what everyone above is saying and it make sense for a house rule, I can't read the line I quoted as anything other than open access to the PAN. If my GM asks if my gun is on my public PAN, I'm going to have to say "No" because my gun is on my hidden commlink, not the public fake ID commlink and if that gets me hassled by the cops for carrying something that isn't being broadcasted, well, that's to be expected.

Again, like everything else in this discussion, it's your interpretation that wins because the RAW are horrifyingly vague.

Posted by: Traul Aug 13 2011, 05:15 PM

OK, I'm going to build AR clothing made of thousands of RFID tags woven together. You asked for an Active PAN, you got it

On a side note, the penile implant suddenly got less appealing. Who wants to cross the airport with a flashing "I have a fake dong!" sign?

I think a good middle ground would be to require any R items to be broadcast in high secure areas, like an open carry policy. The penile implant was a funny example, but you really don't want to broadcast your pacemaker's Access ID...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 05:22 PM

But WHY would you have it assigned to your PAN? I wouldn't.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 13 2011, 05:29 PM

How about re-chambering a hold-out to take heavy pistol ammo? It still uses hold-out range brackets, but does 5P damage rather than 4P. Maybe you could even make it take a rifle cartridge: how does a highly concealable 7P firearm sound?

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 06:05 PM

As far as I can see, by RAW, changing the ammo size doesn't change damage. It's a great houserule, but that's it. If I was the GM, I'd be asking you to explain how the magazine was going to work with the new ammo size.

(Note, the rule that says the two use different ammo is on pg 323 SR4A.)

Posted by: Traul Aug 13 2011, 06:18 PM

I guess if the law requires all wireless devices to be Active, it also requires all wireless-enabled devices to have the wifi on. Lawmakers are not that stupid

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 06:37 PM

No, the Law requires you to transmit your SIN (Identity) in those places that require Active Mode, NOT all your wireless capable devices, nor your entire PAN. If you choopse to do so, well, that is your choice, not the law. The vagaries of Social Networking make it nice to have that accessible for networking purposes, but it is NOT a requirement.

Posted by: Traul Aug 13 2011, 06:40 PM

I completely agree that is how it should work but suoq made a convincing case that it is not RAW.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 06:41 PM

Actually, he really did not...
If you choose to broadcast relevant facts about yourself that are not required for SIN verification, well, that is all on you. Me, I only give what is absolutely necessary. Even in Real Life.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 07:37 PM

It depends on *which* law. They can require anything they want.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 13 2011, 08:05 PM

I disagree. Changing ammo is the only thing, AFAIK, that can change a gun's damage code. Ergo, bigger rounds = more damage. At least in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 08:08 PM

The Public Profile is the Thing though. What is Public? Certainly your SIN is, maybe any licenses or certifications. But what is in my Pocket, or in my body, is not mandated to be attached to the public profile of the PAN. As I said before, whatever you choose to broadcast is fine and dandy, but the vast majority of information that a public/corporate servant (read police/security) would need is only your SIN. Maybe some of your more important Biometrics. My medical file, what I own, what cyberware is implanted, is not part of your public profile at all. It might be something that you could release if needed, along with Licenses or certifications, but they should NOT be part of your public information that everyone reads. Unless you choose it to be.

By Default, Your SIN provides only the following Information, Per SR4A.



And, why would they need anything else for a random sweep, as is the case in most zones where your Comlink must be in Active Mode.

Additionally. Same reference...



So, as can be seen. The majority of your data is NOT transmitted in Active Mode, as part of your public profile, unless there is reason to dig deeper.

That should cover it quite nicely, I believe.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 13 2011, 08:12 PM

Ammo Caliber Increase = High Power Chambering.




-k

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 13 2011, 08:16 PM

Which is the only way to get more powerful calibers in your firearm frame. It is the only modification that allows this.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 13 2011, 08:36 PM

Not really.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 13 2011, 08:41 PM

Page reference? There is no modification called "High Power Chambering" in my copy of Arsenal.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 13 2011, 08:42 PM

It's not from Arsenal it's in WAR.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 13 2011, 09:04 PM

As described, it's refitting a weapon with a more powerful round. It's the closest thing the rules have to increased caliber.


-k

Posted by: Mäx Aug 13 2011, 09:28 PM

It's mod that refits the weapons firing chamber to handle increased pressure from rounds using more powerful propellant, that for some mystical reason are only available as standard rounds(IE. no APDS,EX-EX,hollow point high power rounds)
No change to the caliber of the weapon.

Something like following is IMO a pretty good rule for upping the weapons caliber:
Higher Caliber
Gun is modified to fire higher caliber bullets then it normally does, this gives the gun +1 to DV.
Ammo capacity is reduced by 25%
2 10 shop Weapon price + 2500¥ 10R

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 13 2011, 10:06 PM

Sure, if you wanna use a house rule.

Then again you can do anything with a house rule.




-k

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 10:57 PM

Absolutely correct. The majority of your data is not transmitted. (Note that the section has nothing to do with active or passive mode, but with transmitting data). To get the rest of the data that they don't require to be transmitted, they have to log onto your commlink (see my earlier quote about active commlinks) and look at it. If they don't look, they don't know. But anyone can look if your commlink is active.

Personally, I don't like it any more than anyone else. Unfortunately, that's what they wrote.

Posted by: Miri Aug 13 2011, 11:49 PM

A visual inspection of your Def Ex shocker, no I doubt he would be able to tell it has been fire selection modded. Unless you have a smartgun link built into it you would have to have a selector switch so I suppose that could be a clue as I imagine the safetys on one of these is some kind of trigger/grip based thing so the clueless secretary doesn't have to fumble with the switch.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 14 2011, 01:51 AM

I don't think Capacitor dart are exotic ammo, but unlike every other taser Defiance EX Shocker shoots dart trailed by 20m cables, witch i would assume is the reason for the SS fire mode in the first place.

Why would there be a selector witch, there's really no need for one when the change is only from SS to SA firemode.

Posted by: Traul Aug 14 2011, 02:10 AM

Because Firing slection change only adds new options. A modded Shocker would not be SA but SS/SA. Don't ask me why anyone would use the SS mode, though: I already don't understand why they keep SA on assault rifles

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 02:12 AM

As we know, there's no reason to have anything but FA… except for the weird little Called Shot technicality.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 02:18 PM

I disagree... Looking at what is actively transmitted is one thing. Actually logging on to the Comlink is something else entirely. Regardless of whether you are in Active Mode or Hidden Mode. Just because you are active does not mean you have no defenses on your comlink. They STILL have to login, which is the same whether you are active or not. And that may be a challenge (for a shadowrunner' comlink anyways). The only difference is that they do not have to FIND your node, they know exactly where it is.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 02:22 PM

Because rampant spamming of ammunition gets expensive fast. One of the reasons they removed FA Fire from the M16 when I was in the Marine Corps. Ammo cxontrol is important when you only have so much ammunition. Automatic Fire throws Fire Ammo) Discipline into the trash.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 02:27 PM

Not in real life, TJ. In SR. Where FA can fire SA, BF, anything.

Posted by: suoq Aug 14 2011, 02:32 PM

Let me repeat my quote from SR4A, pg 223
I'm not saying you or me or anyone else has to like it. I'm saying that's what they put in the rules. It's right up there with Glamour affecting dragons 100% of the time.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 02:35 PM

That's a vague, fluffy 'rule'. It could simply mean that people see your public Facespace page. It's an assumption to say that it means they get admin access to your whole PAN (even read-only). However, authorities may well require smartgun tracking, etc., depending on the infinite variety of secure zones that you find yourself in. There's even a gun specifically designed for location-locking, Safe-Target, TI'd, etc.

Posted by: Traul Aug 14 2011, 02:43 PM

The other disturbing thing is the way they say that the commlink mode determines the mode for the whole PAN. If your commlink is Active, then your PAN is Active.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 02:45 PM

Everything should be skinlinked anyway, though.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 03:38 PM

That is Fluff, Suoq, Not Mechanics.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 03:39 PM

Which is why your PAN on your Active Comlink should be sparse, just in case it is hacked.

Posted by: suoq Aug 14 2011, 03:55 PM

If you want to house rule it as fluff, feel free.Your house rules and interpretations are not my problem. I'm just quoting the rules and giving page numbers so people can read and make their own decisions.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 04:00 PM

You are quoting a fluff piece Suoq, Not actual mecahnics; It is descriuptive text. But I can agree to disagree with you on this one.

Posted by: Traul Aug 14 2011, 04:50 PM

That goes without saying for runners, but it should not have to be the case for Joe Average.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 14 2011, 05:00 PM

Why would Joe Average Care. Look at Facebook.