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Posted by: CrowOfPyke Aug 13 2011, 09:26 PM

I have never been big on playing Mages. But I figure I would give one a try for SRM.

I am looking at the Archetype build of the Combat Mage.... Any reason why I want Mage Sight Goggles over regular goggles?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 13 2011, 09:32 PM

It depends on what you're doing with them. Goggles are for all normal tasks, Mage Sight refers to fiber-optics that preserve the mystic LOS requirement.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 09:35 PM

meaning you stand behind a corner, just poke your eye-stems around and go about zapping targets while in full cover . .

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 13 2011, 10:04 PM

They do impose a -3 dice pool penalty to magical actions channeled through them , though, so you'll need to account for that.



-k

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 13 2011, 10:12 PM

Goggles are goggles plain and simple. Mage sight goggles are basically an endoscope attached to goggles. So different tools for different jobs.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 13 2011, 10:13 PM

Mage sight goggles give you an up to 30 meter-long rope that you can move, and see/cast spells through. They are a completely different thing than normal goggles.

Posted by: CrowOfPyke Aug 13 2011, 10:14 PM

Got it.

Cowardly, covertly, sneaky: mage sight goggles
General purpose: goggles

Thanks!

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 13 2011, 10:19 PM

Of course you're carrying around 30m of fiber-optic cable and you need someone to snake it around the corner for you. Or Magic Fingers it. A really short cable would be great for an FRT team doing a breach though; snake the cable under the door, Stunball everyone in the room.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 13 2011, 10:23 PM

No - it's myomeric rope. You electronically control it, and it can move itself. That's why it's so useful.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 10:34 PM

basically, you sit down, unroll, tell your wire to sneak under the doors one by one, cast spells as needed and get up when you're done.
just one tip for the future: don't throw elemental combat spells.

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 10:39 PM

Note page 183 SR4A

and page 332 SR4A

So... Mage sight goggles = Can be cast through. Regular Goggles = Can't be cast through.

I have no clue why there isn't a vehicle mod for mage sight goggles. There should be. Or maybe there's one and I missed it.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2011, 10:51 PM

Well, you can cast while wearing goggles, it's just that you won't be able to cast targeting the objects you can only detect with the enhanced senses they provide.
And that's basically number 1 reason to get cybereyes for mages, as repeatedly discussed.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 10:52 PM

you don't really need one.
make some tiny little holes to stick your wire through and call it a day.
or simply install several sets of magesight goggles in fixed positions.
kinda like the periscope of a submarine for example. only you look through differen view-ports . .

Posted by: Fatum Aug 13 2011, 10:58 PM

Why this and not just polarized windows you can look through just like that?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 10:59 PM

Because you usually/generally don't want any weak spots in your armor, i'd guess.
This is more for things like submarines and military vehicles like tanks and the such.
In normal "civillian" cars? sure, windows all the way . .

Posted by: suoq Aug 13 2011, 11:07 PM

Because a mage who can't be seen doesn't easily get a 50 cal lobotomy.

And enhanced Rigger Cocoon with built in Mage Sight Goggles in the back of Citymaster strikes me as happy pink mohawk time. Why hasn't Longbowrocks mentioned this before, or did I miss it?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 11:10 PM

probably because he is more into active defense, than passive . .

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 13 2011, 11:15 PM

I thought he also had a hate-on for Awakened. Mage goggles would therefore be of limited utility.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 13 2011, 11:26 PM

that can be too . .
and i fully understand and support that hate for awakened stuff . .
never got to like them either myself . .

Posted by: Glyph Aug 14 2011, 12:09 AM

Some of the visual enhancements that you can get with goggles can be useful to a mage. It is only when they substitute themselves for a mage's senses that they are unusable. Things like visual enhancement, low-light vision, or optical magnification are fine. It's things like thermographic vision or ultrasound that can't be used for targetting. This is because they don't simply enhance your existing vision, but show you a computer-generated representation that replaces your normal vision.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 12:12 AM

I'm pretty sure that low light counts the same as thermo, and I'd be surprised if there was no debate over visual enhancement (if you're using it cast spells with a bonus, anyway).

Posted by: Glyph Aug 14 2011, 12:40 AM

It depends on how those enhancements work - they don't have quite enough fluff in the descriptions to make more than an individual judgement call on them. Visual enhancement wouldn't give a bonus to spellcasting, though. It would only give a bonus to your perception test, to see if you can acquire the target.

Posted by: suoq Aug 14 2011, 12:45 AM

Note: Binoculars are the only item in the Visual Sensors and Imaging Devices section (332 SR4a) that state they come in an optical version. How you interpret that is your own problem.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 12:45 AM

I agree. It's certainly vague. As long as it's not helping the spellcasting, I'm fine with it myself. However… *does* anyone require perception tests for spellcasting? It has infinite range, and it didn't think there were really rules for the limits of natural vision. The spellcasting test itself is penalized by Visibility, and LOS is required, but that's as far as I've heard. :/

As for low light, I can also see it going either way… but it's better for consistency and balance if all visions are similarly barred.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 14 2011, 01:15 AM

It depends on whether the GM makes the characters make perception tests for combat or not - they might not spot that sniper on the roof, or that guy crouched behind a car, or the squad of reinforcements coming up behind them. You don't need perception tests when the enemy is right in front of you, but a lot of times, you will need to successfully spot someone before you can even think about doing anything to them.

So you don't need any special perception roll for the spellcasting itself, but like any other character, there will be times when perception tests are called for.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Aug 14 2011, 04:09 AM

I may have a mystic adept rigger that does this. Possibly.






-k

Posted by: Fatum Aug 14 2011, 08:06 AM

Perception modifiers affect the spellcasting test, it's in the rules.
And no electronic aids can be used for targeting spells, the rule seems pretty obvious to me - you can't target things you see on a screen, even if that screen is half an inch away from your eyes and transparent (so you could also see things yourself, too).

Posted by: Falanin Aug 14 2011, 08:09 AM

If you're having problems getting your myometric rope to climb walls or snake itself through air-ducts correctly, you can always have a Kanmushi bug-drone carry it for you. Also handy if you don't want to try and manipulate the myomers manually. Just give the drone an order and go back to that firefight you were ignoring.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 11:37 AM

You're gonna want to back that up, Fatum. Are you merely talking about the Visibility mods, which we've already mentioned? In addition, you're using a different rule than the actual rules. Here's Glyph's point: "any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Here's the ambiguous one: "As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not establish the necessary link." In the same paragraph with the above, this makes it tough to decide if Vision Enhancement on otherwise normal vision works, but my point remains that it doesn't matter… because a +3 to Perception plays zero part in spellcasting.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 14 2011, 01:49 PM

Yeah, Visibility mods are what I mean.

Can't see how it is ambiguous... Vision Enhancement is non-relevant for spellcasting tests, you're right, but, say, ultrasound vision has a chance to be, since it detects targets under Invisibility. Still, Vision Enhancement, Radar or whatever - those are still just images on a semi-transparent screen you are seeing. Those you can't target. The actual targets you see with your own eyes through that screen, you can target.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 01:54 PM

We're agreeing, but you're phrasing it in a way that I think would confuse people.

There are 'replace' visions and there are 'enhance' visions. Vision Enhancement is the latter, ultrasound/radar (and, I'm opining, low-light) are the former. Replace visions definitely don't give mystic LOS, but it's possible that enhance visions don't interfere with it. They also don't *help*, because (as we agree) Perception doesn't matter for casting (only Visibility penalties). The replace/enhance distinction is what Glyph and I are (idly) discussing.

Posted by: Irion Aug 14 2011, 01:56 PM

@Yerameyahu
Thats really mulitble times in the rules...
If you are using a vision enhancement which has not been paied with essance for, you can't target spells...

It does not matter if there is a relevant boni. If I use glasses, which only make everything look yellow I could still not cast through them. (Unless the alteration is only optical)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 01:58 PM

And I disagree. You're using your normal vision there, it's not a substitute. You are not using a camera or a Matrix video feed to target; those would obviously be wrong. Light is hitting your eyes directly from the target (through a transparent material, which is 100% fine). If there's other crap also hitting your eyes, that's no business of the magic's.

The bonuses aren't part of the argument; I was just pointing out that the argument doesn't *matter* at all.

Posted by: Irion Aug 14 2011, 02:07 PM

@Yerameyahu
The point is, that your definition of "substitute" is quite deliberate.
If I enhance the picture with electronics (granting +3 Perception) I have substituted the feed.

Posted by: suoq Aug 14 2011, 02:16 PM

The problem is, again, "How do they work"? (Seems to be a trend for this week.)

Are the glasses a LED screen that shows fine detail or are the glasses a transparent material where additional information is projected onto the surface?

As an example I'll put forth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--EPJAE2hQ
From a fluff perspective, if you were driving this car with this enhancement, the enhancement tells you what's there. You can then look for it and see it sooner than you normally would have, and get line of sight very early.

In the above example, I'd grant the +3 to perception AND agree that the feed wasn't substituted.

BUT... Do goggles, glasses, contacts, etc. work this way? It's very easy to read the rules and decide that glasses/goggles/contacts/etc. are simply TV screens with cameras that for some bizarre reason do not come with a recording unit. On the other hand, one could take that lack of a recording unit to imply that the devices were part optical, part electronic, as in the above example.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 14 2011, 02:17 PM

Maybe. We don't know what it does. And there are a number of other enhancements; Glyph suggested that low-light is not a substitute. I disagree on that one, but there's room to consider on many of these. A smartlink, for example, just highlights or overlays (non-blocking); you wouldn't declare that a mage can't cast at someone just because they happen to be aim their gun as well.

I'm not saying a mage can target *anything* he couldn't otherwise see. I'm saying that non-substitute sense do not *add* any such thing. Visual Enhancement lets you see details (unnecessary for spells), Magnification lets you see things bigger (unnecessary for spells), etc. Glyph suggests that these would be relevant if the mage didn't see the target to begin with—that is, they were hidden/stealth. I agree, but in that case they're making a perfectly mundane check to spot them, and once spotted, they may well see them with normal, non-substituted vision.

Another reason, though, that this whole argument is irrelevant is that everyone should be receiving their visual enhancements via simsense via trodes, so it's totally impossible to block the real LOS. Hehe.

suoq, that true, but I think we have to assume that glasses, goggle, contacts, and binocs are transparent. Mostly because that's what glasses, contacts, etc. *are*.