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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ An offer you can refuse
Posted by: Bushw4cker Aug 14 2011, 09:12 AM
My players will take any run I throw at them (Partly because I think they think it's the only one I have prepared) What are some examples of runs that every runner with half a brain should outright refuse?
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 14 2011, 09:29 AM
Hmmm
Anything that involves any two or more of the following:
A unknown Johnson (J's have to remain anonymous for the system to work, but somebody should at least be willing to give you a straight read on this guy. Stay away from J's the nobody knows nothing about).
Special/dangerous requirements (Touch only X, you must begin the run in 15 mins, extraction target must remain conscious)
No/insufficient up front money.
These arn't complete ironclad rules but for runs that the runners don't have a personal investment in they would be guidelines I'd recommend to people in the SR verse.
Put another way: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0122690/
Posted by: Glyph Aug 14 2011, 09:45 AM
You think it's a metagame problem (they think you only have one run prepared), so clear and unambiguous communication, out-of-game, is what is called for here.
I think you need to tell the players that their characters have the right, in-game, to turn down jobs that sound suspicious, don't pay enough for the risk, or go against whatever moral code, if any, the group has (burning down orphanages, etc.). And also warn them that you will be pitching the occasional "bad" run to them.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 14 2011, 09:56 AM
I think you need to tell the players that their characters have the right, in-game, to turn down jobs that sound suspicious, don't pay enough for the risk, or go against whatever moral code, if any, the group has (burning down orphanages, etc.). And also warn them that you will be pitching the occasional "bad" run to them.
The Grab from missions worries me - 3 days to carry out an extraction with a very specific "no harm to the extractee" clause, and potentially all you have is the name of the victim...
Three days isn't long to find out about the vic's security arrangements etc, obtain specialist equipment and then carry out the grab...
Posted by: Halflife Aug 14 2011, 01:42 PM
In a previous campaign I ran in the GM had a game he liked to play with us. It was to make us say "We really shouldn't have taken this job" earlier and earlier each run.
The last run in this slowly escalating chain of bad decisions was as follows:
Johnson: Obvious constantly grinning steel Cyberskull with AR fluorescent green insects flying in and out of the eyes and ears. He gives us a real name that we trace back to a corp exec who was murdered and beheaded approximately two weeks ago who is a visual match to the Johnson.
The run: Take this box, shielded with wifi-negation, electronic hardening, MAD shielding, high density material(No Radar), high level mana barrier so you have no idea what is in it and can't and, using a submarine I have parked in the harbor, drive out to a Saeder-Krup run free island off the coast open it, and then follow all instructions inside.
The response: No taking runs from Johnson's with Creepy, Rating 6.
Posted by: suoq Aug 14 2011, 02:29 PM
In addition to Lurker's post (above) I dislike any runs where the Johnson has the gear I'll need prepared in advance.
Posted by: Bushw4cker Aug 14 2011, 02:34 PM
The last run in this slowly escalating chain of bad decisions was as follows:
Johnson: Obvious constantly grinning steel Cyberskull with AR fluorescent green insects flying in and out of the eyes and ears. He gives us a real name that we trace back to a corp exec who was murdered and beheaded approximately two weeks ago who is a visual match to the Johnson.
The run: Take this box, shielded with wifi-negation, electronic hardening, MAD shielding, high density material(No Radar), high level mana barrier so you have no idea what is in it and can't and, using a submarine I have parked in the harbor, drive out to a Saeder-Krup run free island off the coast open it, and then follow all instructions inside.
The response: No taking runs from Johnson's with Creepy, Rating 6.
Green insects flying in and out of eyes and ears?!
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 02:44 PM
Not Shadowrun, and not quite walked away, but there was a Star Wars game where we had the accountant do the budget for the mission (We were a Privateer Corporation and had to answer to the shareholders. Namely, the heavily armed crew! This was before Schlock Mercenary, BTW), and found out that it wasn't worth our time, not even paying for maintenance.
We polled the crew, and the end result was: "You know what, we'll do it any way. We're bored. Oh, and good cause and all that. Mostly the bored part, however." The look on the GM's face as we went through all of these actions was priceless.
Posted by: Halflife Aug 14 2011, 07:20 PM
Turned out to be an AI codenamed "Mantis." We never figured out why but the bug imagery seemed to be some sort of compulsion.
Posted by: kzt Aug 14 2011, 07:25 PM
We had one that had us all going into Portland, back in the day. Most of us were not elves. Everyone just had a really bad feeling and we turned him down and walked out of the meet. And it turned out it was the right call.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 14 2011, 08:43 PM
I once gave the PCs a job that involved going out to a cabin, on a lake in the woods, and investigate what happened there. The characters weren't there 5 minutes, and their Driver (an NPC they hired to get them there. As none knew how to drive at that point) was killed, on his way out of there (they didn't miss him, all he did was make passes at the female characters). One of them heard the crash, and went to investigate, meting up with some huge shadow in the woods. Levelling his gun, he asks the shadow who he is. The shadow turns around, and throws it's machete at the character, getting imbeded in the PC's shoulder.
Turns out, what happened was an old-school slaughter of the Governor's daughter and her friends by a spirit inhabiting the dead body of a Giant in a hockey mask and a worker's jumpsuit.
Edit: Alright, this isn't a run they turned their backs on, but they probably should have.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 14 2011, 09:07 PM
We had one run, where all but one refused to work with said one character.
GM and players faces were priceless, when we started an impromptu LAN-Party without them.
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 14 2011, 09:36 PM
Mysterious Johnson offered the group access to things they'd likely never see otherwise; betaware for the samurai, a loaner t-bird for the rigger, I forget the rest but I remember it equally WOW. The runners politely backed away as quickly as possible.
In character, we figured anyone offering us a deal that good seemingly that easily is either sending us on a suicide run or planning on making us indentured servants bound to the whims of something much bigger than us. Given what had just happened in the campaign world (Denver '62), we particularly didn't want to risk breaking the 4th Runner Commandment.
OOC, I'm sure we just completely screwed up the GM's campaign plot hook. Campaign didn't last long after that. But it was the right thing to do IC.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 14 2011, 10:05 PM
I'm always a li'l worried about J's who seem like they really want us to commit to a job before divulging more details. There's nothing worse than a J that is naive AND paranoid. One time my decidedly pink mohawk group walked away from a job just for that reason, which was pretty amazing and required a herculean choke by the Johnson. We were all itching to play and our Street Samurai player at least would likely have signed onto a job even if given little more information than "I need you to do a snatch and grab at a triple A facility."
Posted by: scarius Aug 14 2011, 10:05 PM
In the game that I am currently playing in I have had a few thoughts about saying no to a few runs, it has come down to the fact that "I" want to play as the reason that my character has said yes. The rest of the group that I am with will say yes to anything, we are actually about to go for a drive from Seattle to the shatter graves for a snatch and grab on an ex-marine and we getting paid 50,000 for the job
Posted by: CanRay Aug 14 2011, 10:09 PM
One that's paranoid and pretending to be naive.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 14 2011, 10:10 PM
Touché.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 15 2011, 01:00 AM
We were in Seattle, and there was some sort of internal Mafia Mob war brewing. So one Johnson (A) who we'd worked for before calls us about a job, and another Johnson (B) as well.
When we get to talking with A, he tells us that before he'll tell us more, he wants us all to accept a cranial bomb because the mission is so secret.
So we walked out.
.... then B's mission was just all about killing Johnson A. Who we'd just let slip away. Grr.
Posted by: vladski Aug 15 2011, 02:00 AM
I am really amazed at how much you guys seem to want beforehand. Things like "3 days isn't long enough" and wanting to know all the details about a job beforehand or being suspicious because the Johnson offers support equipment for the job?
My opinion is that is what being a runner is about: you are going to take the job that is dangerous and often the job that "sane" people would turn down. That is WHY runners exist. You need a job done and you need it right now... hire a runner team. Often getting the job done actually depends on the mark going "But who in their right mind would even attempt...?" It's all about surprise, having the skills and being willing to do the things no one else would think possible. Runners aren't expected to live forever. That's what makes it sweet when your character succeeds and that's why you develop a street rep after a while. Sure your Johnson is gonna try to screw you... probably more than half the time. That's where the sweetness lies: Do the job, make the money, don't get screwed and watch your Johnson take the fall for the bad shit he lined up against you, all the while absolutely no clues point to you for his undoing.
Give anyone enough intel, enough prep time and enough support and they can rob a bank successfully. A runner should be able to come up with a plan in a couple hours, pull it off, pin it on someone else and the robbery was only a diversion from the REAL job, which was doing something like stealing the bank manager's house keys so that you can bug his house to get information on a mob pal of his about which horse is supposed to win in the 6th race on Sunday.
Vlad
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 02:09 AM
My opinion is that is what being a runner is about: you are going to take the job that is dangerous and often the job that "sane" people would turn down. That is WHY runners exist. You need a job done and you need it right now... hire a runner team. Often getting the job done actually depends on the mark going "But who in their right mind would even attempt...?" It's all about surprise, having the skills and being willing to do the things no one else would think possible. Runners aren't expected to live forever. That's what makes it sweet when your character succeeds and that's why you develop a street rep after a while. Sure your Johnson is gonna try to screw you... probably more than half the time. That's where the sweetness lies: Do the job, make the money, don't get screwed and watch your Johnson take the fall for the bad shit he lined up against you, all the while absolutely no clues point to you for his undoing.
Give anyone enough intel, enough prep time and enough support and they can rob a bank successfully. A runner should be able to come up with a plan in a couple hours, pull it off, pin it on someone else and the robbery was only a diversion from the REAL job, which was doing something like stealing the bank manager's house keys so that you can bug his house to get information on a mob pal of his about which horse is supposed to win in the 6th race on Sunday.
Vlad
And then, bet the stolen money on the horse race...
Posted by: jakephillips Aug 15 2011, 02:21 AM
I had a group of runners refuse to take a run against Doc Wagon to steal some numbered samples because they all had Doc Wagon contracts and would not burn their employer.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:38 AM
Shadowrunners pay *THEM* to not perform Shadowruns on them.
Posted by: kzt Aug 15 2011, 04:03 AM
I had a character who's serious GF was a honcho with KE. We didn't hit Ares or KE protected/contracted sites, but she got us a lot of "well, we can't officially investigate this..." jobs.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 15 2011, 06:56 AM
While I know pretty much what the do's and don't's for a runner are, I've never heard of any Commandments? Link? This a Dumpshock thing?
Posted by: Machiavelli Aug 15 2011, 07:13 AM
The only thing we are about to refuse (future-speaking) is "track down and put a tail on somebody for about a week". Our team is called "fight-club" and if nothing is blowing up into pieces or people are shreddered into red dust, we don´t want to do the job.^^
Posted by: ggodo Aug 15 2011, 07:20 AM
Keep your head down, Shoot straight, Watch your back, and Never, EVER Deal with a dragon.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 11:34 AM
I'm slowly attuning my group to some measure of paranoia. But of course I think about an exit strategy if they turn a job down - mostly there will be some hook to keep them going if that happens. Or I just let them do some other criminal thing.
Now personally, I'm for turning runs down that begin with
- "it'll be easy" and
- "I need someone for a SPECIAL job",
but then these are really no-brainers.
That and if the J gives nothing up front, or just a measly percentage. No trust given means no trust offered. If he's not willing to take half the risk, then I don't see that I have to take all the risk.
Now I know GMs who will then just smile, and let you pay month after month of lifestyle until you are ready to take just about anything.
Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 15 2011, 11:38 AM
That's when you start killing people, selling them for spare-parts, take over their lifestyle and sell their stuff like cars for spare parts . .
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 11:39 AM
Now personally, I'm for turning runs down that begin with
- "it'll be easy" and
- "I need someone for a SPECIAL job",
but then these are really no-brainers.
That and if the J gives nothing up front, or just a measly percentage. No trust given means no trust offered. If he's not willing to take half the risk, then I don't see that I have to take all the risk.
Now I know GMs who will then just smile, and let you pay month after month of lifestyle until you are ready to take just about anything.
Yeah. I'll do that. Of course, my players generally start looking for work before time comes to call in the rent and they don't have it. Sometimes I throw them a bone, and give them just enough to make payments.
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 15 2011, 11:43 AM
Yeah, I know, that's what we did back then... the trouble is that the GM can still tune prices to always screw you over - even if he just follows the rules to the letter.
Actually, that particular guy wasn't even trying to be a dick (in that respect), it was actually his philosophy: If a shadowrunner isn't scraping the bottom of the can then he as the GM is doing something wrong. This was the same guy that said "enjoy the stuff you get at chargen, because you never, EVER are going to get so many shiny things again." He was quite lenient at chargen, too...
Posted by: suoq Aug 15 2011, 02:28 PM
Milk runs. I have a deep fear of milk runs. Why is this guy offering 5 grand up front for a milk run? We're all going to die.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 15 2011, 02:32 PM
If your GM is dysfunctional, talk to him about it.
Posted by: squee_nabob Aug 15 2011, 03:04 PM
Because I play missions I do not turn any jobs down. However the ones I would turn down are:
Anything off this plane of existence
Alcheras on a general rule
Anonymous Johnsons with special requests and less than 10,000ny pay
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:13 PM
I'm pretty sure that if I could get my group back together again, they'd refuse any 'Runs that send them to LA ever again.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 03:16 PM
No one should accept any runs that go to LA. Too much Horizon, and too many people with cameras trying to make themselves the next Big Thing in 'Running
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:19 PM
Too many Shadowruns involving the Magic Kingdom and trips to Aztlan to rescue Batman...
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 15 2011, 03:25 PM
Right, but if you're hiring runners you've already stuck your foot in it and are taking risks anyway, so you might as well say what you want in plain terms. God knows the team will be checking out your story anyway, so you might as well be forthcoming. I don't even give a crap about motive; I just want to know what you need us to do before you start whining about whether we're in or not while squirming around like someone's holding your ass over a griddle. I'll still probably do the job if the pay is good but that kinda thing makes my runner-sense tingle.
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 15 2011, 03:38 PM
One of the first games I ran as a GM was supposed to have the players running a mission for a start-up weapons development company that was competing against Ares for a military contract. I had figured they would have jumped at the opportunity to stick it to the man and work for the underdog.
The response was something along the lines of "Fuck that, we're not about to piss Ares off!" Wasn't a big deal, they ended up running the mission from the other side, working for Ares to crush the upstarts.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:45 PM
Posted by: Daier Mune Aug 15 2011, 03:56 PM
which also reenforces my belief that Shadowrunners aren't the heroes of the sixth world.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 03:58 PM
They're not.
They're protagonists.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 04:01 PM
They're protagonists.
And everyone knows the protagonist can be the villain (Excel Saga for a nice comedic viewpoint on that, or Dexter for the Sociopath view)
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 15 2011, 05:01 PM
Do some groups get so scared of the AAAs, that they don't want to run against them?
I'm talking actual player groups, not NPCs of course. Because occasionally on Dumpshock there's this "they're AAA, they're so good, you can't possibly win" sentiment going.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 15 2011, 05:13 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on that specific example at least, if robbing banks and getting awy with it was so easily runners wouldn't be runners they'd be bank robbers.
I linked Heat up there because that's been my template for most medium to big time shadowruns for a while now, any job worth doing will require planing and and execution, finesse and force. Some jobs aren't worth doing for the money your employer is willing to pay you. Some jobs (banks in specific) the opposition is going to hunt you for a long long time, so that increases the cost metric. All jobs can be done, but not all jobs are worth doing. A lot of jobs the security is going to be good enough that your going to have to line up an excellent plan in order to pull it off. Nothing about shadowrunners makes them able to do that faster or better then anyone else, their skills and talents are what gets them able to do the job.
All that's before you throw J's who are out to work you over in the mix.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 15 2011, 08:21 PM
They're protagonists.
Posted by: vladski Aug 16 2011, 07:33 AM
I linked Heat up there because that's been my template for most medium to big time shadowruns for a while now, any job worth doing will require planing and and execution, finesse and force. Some jobs aren't worth doing for the money your employer is willing to pay you. Some jobs (banks in specific) the opposition is going to hunt you for a long long time, so that increases the cost metric. All jobs can be done, but not all jobs are worth doing. A lot of jobs the security is going to be good enough that your going to have to line up an excellent plan in order to pull it off. Nothing about shadowrunners makes them able to do that faster or better then anyone else, their skills and talents are what gets them able to do the job.
All that's before you throw J's who are out to work you over in the mix.
I agree with you on the highlighted sentiment and I hope you realize there was a bit of hyperbole there to make a point. I was trying to point out a drift I was hearing in many of the early comments that made runners sound like really whiny prima donnas that want every thing handed to them on a platter and guaranteed success. A lot of the time a Johnson hires a runner group because a really bad situation has just cropped up that needs attention right NOW before it blows up. Therefore, he seeks out professionals that are skilled and trained at impromptu solutions. Time is of the essence and the details are going to be scarce in the handling of a delicate situation when dealing with unknowns and a time crunch.
As far as the bank setup went, I was exaggerating. More what would be likely is that the runners would stage a quick "holdup" of the bank that need not be monetarily successful. Just the cash in the drawers concept to buy time for the real crime of lifting the keys. Then, run out the door, throwing the cash to the crowd outside and proclaiming some sort of Robin Hood-y type motive (and naming some group of people's terrorist org that they have no affiliation with) and fade away in the commotion. More to the point, who actually robs banks in the 2070's anyway?
I guess what I am trying to say is that while runners are professionals, they are professionals in the business of impromptu, high risk jobs that most people would never do. Runners may be thieves and assassins, getaway drivers, mercenaries and con men. However not all of those professions are Shadowrunners. It's the high-risk, low information, short notice jobs that define a large portion of the career. True Shadowrunners are elite BECAUSE they can pull these things off on a very short notice with the (perceived) odds against them.
Vlad
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 16 2011, 10:20 AM
True, but you can't do a job without at least some intel.
If the Johnson can't provide intel, he needs to provide time to *get* the intel.
In "The Grab" the runners are given a name and picture of a victim and nothing else. The victim is too young to be on electoral roles, property lists, phone directories or driving licence databases so is possibly harder to track down than an average adult, depending on how hard the GM wants to make it.
They are told that during the kidnapping the victim must not be hurt at all - again, depending on the GM, this might preclude tasering, narcoject, neurostun or tranq-patches, meaning that the victim may have to be taken alive *and* awake, which adds another level of complication.
They have 3 days to deliver the goods.
Spoliers:
Now, hopefully they can find out everything they need - home address, layout of home, school address, layout of school, vehicle in which she travels, route to school, security arrangements at home, school and during travel etc etc via the matrix and contacts in the 1st day.
That leaves 1 day for surveillance, and one day to carry out the grab.
And if they are a novice group who have not set up for a kidnapping, they are going to find it hard to get hold of any specialised gear in the 3 day time slot.
Fortunately the surveillance day and the kidnapping day are going to be the same routine for the victim, but of course the *characters* have no way of knowing that. If they set up for an extraction at the school and the vic stays at home that day with a cold, they now have even less time to carry out plan B, a completely different raid on the home, instead of just waiting for a couple of days.
***
Is it impossible? No. Is it difficult? Yes - which is why Shadowrunners get hired. BUT is it way more difficult than it has to be? YES - which should set alarm bells ringing. The Johnson hasn't just chosen a name at random, so its a given that the Johnson has a lot more intel about the vic than she is sharing (including the "minor" detail that she has a built in cyber-eye that wil record the faces of all the runners and upload them to the matrix) and has *no* legitamate reason to not share it. The deadline also seems entirely arbitrary. It makes it a all hell of a lot more difficult than it actually needs to be.
Given the choice, unless I were running with an experienced group that were specialists in kidnapping and already had lots of useful gear specifically for this sort of job, I would be very loathe to take on the job for the relatively low pay on offer. If I had been hired individually instead of as part of an existing team and thus had *no idea* what my fellow runners were capable of, I'd be even more leery, but that's exactly what a player might be facing when they rock up to the game at a convention. But at such a game, its do the run or walk away from the table IC AND OOC, which puts meta-pressure on the player.
***
Short version - THe Grab falls into the category of being obviously dicked around by the Johnson, which is in most cases a big flashing neon "No!" sign.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 16 2011, 11:14 AM
If the Johnson acts like he doesn't want the run to succeed, that's a reason to start walking.
For example, he refuses to share intel relevant to the mission, just because. Here and there in books it's suggested that if the runners don't want to do legwork themselves, then Johnson will dock some of their pay - sort of a punishment for not doing all of a school assignment.
But SR isn't school. Johnson should want you to succeed. If he already has some information necessary to succeed at the mission, he'd be a fool not to share it - he runs the risk of the runners going in underprepared, and the mission failing.
And over-mysterious Johnsons. "I want you to do a job for me. I won't tell you what the job is until we agree that you'll do it." That just doesn't make sense.
He shouldn't be telling them everything until an agreement in principle to do the job is reached, but some generalities are needed before agreement is possible; "I want you to kill a well-protected corporate official" or "I want you do steal a prototype from a secret lab" give more of an idea.
At that point there's some discussion about what price range that fits into, and if it looks like an agreement is possible, Johnson can give more specifics.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 03:28 PM
Some Mr. Johnsons might not want to give out details and such for the same reason espionage agencies don't always work off the data given to them: It could compromise an agent they have already inserted.
Making the Shadowrunners do their own Legwork means that their agents won't have to be used in any way, and protects a valuable, and already paid for, asset.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 16 2011, 03:55 PM
Making the Shadowrunners do their own Legwork means that their agents won't have to be used in any way, and protects a valuable, and already paid for, asset.
Until the Runners shoot them during the job, since they didn't know not to...
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 16 2011, 04:09 PM
Making the Shadowrunners do their own Legwork means that their agents won't have to be used in any way, and protects a valuable, and already paid for, asset.
Sometimes Johnson might want to conceal how much he knows, that's true. In which case he's still best served by giving them some leads, and pretending that's all Johnson knows.
Since this is information the runners need to do the job, Johnson wants them to find out the information. Either they'll find out, or they'll fail the job - and we're assuming Johnson wants the job to succeed.
All too often though, it's described like Johnson is keeping stuff secret just for the heck of it. He knows more, and the players know it, and they know they need that information. So he's just being obstructionist* and generally not looking like he's dealing with the runners in good faith.
And when you get the feeling Johnson isn't dealing with you in good faith, you should back off, because he's going to do his best not to pay you...
* Because some scenario writers and GMs seem to think that there's some sort of moral reason that the PCs need to do legwork themselves. But this isn't school; it's about the end result, not the homework.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 16 2011, 04:17 PM
There's only been...one run I ever regretted taking. And one that we did take that should have paid more.
In reverse order those were:
Stealing an oil tanker (in Puget Sound) and driving it out into international waters for a measly $30,000 (for the party of 6). We did it for the notoriety1 ("we stole a god damned oil tanker!")
Kidnapping a guy from an archology who never left the "these floors are not accessible to the public" and delivering him to a target location in Seattle (we were in Miami trying to get a "free ride" back home") without ever causing him to freak out and without injuring him. We spent half of the total cash prize to a cabal of mages to implant a ritual suggestion that he should "go try on hats down in the mall." Oh, and then after we had him back at the safe house, we got hit by spec ops (hilarious point: they hit the room with thermal smoke and used ultrasound in an attempt to blind us. No one was adversely effected, due to all having ultrasound).
That said, I'd really like to run a series of missions that push the boundaries of what the players are willing to agree to, where every step is missing some crucial piece of information and the punishment for refusing is perceived to be greater than the horror of agreeing. The crucial bits are filled in some time later and reveal what, exactly, the players did agree on and find themselves in the untenable position of having crossed a significant moral boundary without realizing it and having done it willingly.
Problem is, I can't write it, and the man whom I know who could, is unreachable.
1Dictionary definition.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 04:53 PM
Problem is, I can't write it, and the man whom I know who could, is unreachable.
Our Primary Shadowrun GM is pretty good at running such scenarios. Had a few of them in our time.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 16 2011, 05:25 PM
Jim though...
Jim would bring them to a whole new level of horror.
Jim's created a Paranoia mission that can handle as many as 256 troubleshooters, ran a Scion game from Hero to God in 11 weeks, and run amazing one-shot SR games drunk.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 16 2011, 05:37 PM
RE: Johnson's and information
Often times my J's will tell the character's as much informationa s their comfortable with and then say "There is other information out there, I leave that up to your own devices as I have touched this matter all I can afford to" or some variation on that theme. Johnson's interests, and if necissary identity are protected players know there is other information to be gleened.
Often this works best with J's the players have worked with a few times as by then they'll at least suspect who their working for, and understand why that entity might need to limit their connections on the matter.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 16 2011, 05:38 PM
In fairness, you only need 8 players to do that in an average evening of Paranoia...
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 16 2011, 05:49 PM
I meant 256 concurrent troubleshooters. I.e. 256 players.
Posted by: suoq Aug 16 2011, 06:22 PM
There seems to be an undercurrent of Johnson's being omniscient in some posts.
It simply may be that the target uses (or is having used on them) the same "cover your tracks" techniques the shadowrunners often use themselves. Is the target someone's Evil Twin? (or perhaps the Good Twin) (RC 104). Is the target Erased? (SR4A 90). Digital Doppelganger? Is it a case of Mistaken Identity? The other guy in Spammed? Was he just the poor fool some other runner pretended to be with a forged access_ID for a Mission? Is he using the same stolen Access_ID to buy porn and drugs that someone else is using to commit murder?
Does Mr. Johnson have the right target? Does he have so much conflicting information that he doesn't want to give it to the runners because he knows much of it is garbage?
----------------
Week one Mission: 12 years ago, someone stole my little girl on her first day of school. I've spent my life looking for her. I've found her. I need you to bring her back to me.
Week two Mission (from another fixer): Last week, someone kidnapped my teenage daughter. We've received no ransom, no news. We don't know who or why. She can't be dead. She just can't be. We need you to find her and bring her back to us. Bring back my daughter. Please. Kill them all if you need to. Just bring her back.
Posted by: Manunancy Aug 16 2011, 07:56 PM
I'm talking actual player groups, not NPCs of course. Because occasionally on Dumpshock there's this "they're AAA, they're so good, you can't possibly win" sentiment going.
I'm of that opinion - against an AAA a runner team can score some victories but they can't win teh war and take the corp down. They're simply too big for that. Runners goingst against an AAA (and even an AA) corp are the esuivalent of a guy with a machete taking on a whole jungle. Sure he can hack his way into it, but by the time he's on the other side, the track is already grown over...
Posted by: kzt Aug 16 2011, 08:11 PM
I did that one. The PCs figured out that there was a history of girls who looked like her disappearing and never being seen again every few years and did in the Johnson. Before he could reach the button to set off the HE in the briefcase full of cash he gave them.
Posted by: EKBT81 Aug 16 2011, 09:28 PM
Honestly, I'm somewhat puzzled by that viewpoint. AFAIK runs like "steal the prototype/research data" or "extract scientist" have always been described as standard business practices of inter-AAA competition in the SR books, to the point that in most cases the corps wouldn't even bother to pursue runners for them after a certain time since they'd only lead to an anonymous, deniable Johnson anyway. Also since AAAs are so big (at least ten times as big as today's largest corporations IIRC) the average run would be barely noticeable on their balance sheet
If you as a runner think you can take down an AAA (or an AA) all by yourself, you're of course severely mistaken. But just doing runs against AAAs is merely providing a common extralegal business service. Your pay will probably be written off under "external consultants" on the company budget.
For me "winning" isn't about taking down AAA corps. It's about making money off their business rivalries.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 16 2011, 09:47 PM
Some of this stuff interests me because it comes in the three flavors I see Shadowrun usually taking:
You have your street or personal level: Here's where gangs pay you to take out other gangs, people want their lost daughter recovered things of that nature. What usually defines this sort of work is resources and therefore time. Most individuals in the sixth world don't have the money required to pay a team of Shadowrunners for an extended engagement. These are the jobs that are relatively straight forward. Go here, do X, follow any necessary cleanup. Boom done. The J's will typically be emotionally invested and that can cause problems. Smart or at least connected ones will get someone else to handle the arrangements, like a fixer, but because of their emotional involvement they'll usually be waiting in the wings. Then you have cases where for a variety of reasons the J sees no need to bother with distance, gangs hire people like this for example as do those who are hiring Shadowrunners for legal work, no matter how thin that skin of legality is. These J's simply do not have the resources for full and complete legwork, everything they know they know first hand, and usually they will tell you it, but they might be wrong.
At the next level up and somewhat overlapping is the corporate/organizational level. These are jobs hired through professional "Deniable Assetts Specialists" or other designated Shadow faces to have shadowrunners do the organizations work while keeping their hands clean. The pay will almost always be better but the jobs will usually be a order of magnitude more complicated. Because your J is investing so much money in the mission he's likely invested a considerable amount of money and effort in making sure he's got the angles covered. The only info he won't give you is info that he feels could somehow hurt him or his organization which can actually be a pretty broad description.
The final level is world shaking stuff: This is like the corpoate level but usually involves major antagonists of the sixth world. Sometimes the money is pretty good on these ops (or at least the swag you pry out of the dead horrors lair is) but a lot of times you go on these because of your own characters investment, even if that investment is what the ghoul apocalypse will do to your property value and ability to walk down to the bar for a beer without getting eaten.
On levels 1 J's are definitely not all knowing and will share a lot of what they do have. On level 2 they usually know a lot more but share a lot less. Level 3 can be anyone's guess.
Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 16 2011, 09:51 PM
EKBT81's impressions run the same as mine, runners who refuse to run against any AAA's are going to have a very hard time finding any meaningful work. On the other hand most of the AAA's don't take things personal, there are some big exceptions MCT has pretty much put the word out that if you penetrate one of their zero zones they will spare no expense and time to kill you. Aztechnology can run the same way although there's been indications in the fluff that this has actually startedf to affect their bottom line because their having a hard time finding teams to work for them and are having to clean up their Shadow image. SK seems to run similar depending on who'se writing them although some of that can likely be written off as Lofwyr's mood that week.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 17 2011, 02:40 AM
Yeah, I prefer not to run against AAAs or specific facilities with really ugly reps but that's hardly the same thing as saying that AAA targets are a deal breaker if there's no good alternative jobs available. After all, it's frankly a li'l naive to think that you can truly avoid AAA entanglements long term since by definition their business interests extend well beyond the buildings that happen to have a AAA logo on the shingle. The big picture is simply something that no individual player can see entirely, so I tend to just accept that there are always risks and worry more about whether the job seems to be something we can even pull off rather than what I think what a massive, faceless corp will do about it if we succeed. So, really, if I pass up a AAA target it's probably because I had some specific incentive not to, such as with kzt's group and the cushy Ares contact or because I feel like can bet on the bigger dog in the fight like with Daer Mune's group.
Posted by: Malbur Aug 17 2011, 03:51 AM
... noob question... whats a milk run?
Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 03:52 AM
Guy walks down to the corner store to get milk and suddenly... NINJAS!
Honestly, "Milk Runs" are simple jobs, even in common terminology. Usually IRL, they're no problem.
In Shadowrun, they're the ones that screw you the most. Low pay, supposed to be low threat, but if something goes wrong, you're usually spending more to get out of the trouble than you're making.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 03:54 AM
http://dragon-tails.com/archive.php?date=2006-01-22.
Posted by: Whipstitch Aug 17 2011, 03:57 AM
One of these days I think I'll have to center a run around a genetically engineered cow.
Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 04:04 AM
'Course, they were the cause of the 'run in the first place, and it was a connection that was going batdrek insane over the situation...
Posted by: Psikerlord Aug 17 2011, 11:37 AM
This is a metagame issue. If the job offered really is the game the GM has prepared... the PCs should never decline it! It's the game he prepared!! It doesn't matter about roleplaying in this scenario - do you want to play SR tonight or not? And btw, if you refused, you'll piss the GM off big time! He spent hours putting this scenario together, after all.
If the GM builds in a refusal as part of a plot well then fair enough. But in that case the GM has to be ready for PCs accepting the deal too... stranger things have happened
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 17 2011, 11:50 AM
If the GM builds in a refusal as part of a plot well then fair enough. But in that case the GM has to be ready for PCs accepting the deal too... stranger things have happened
A good GM should be ready for any response. If my players refuse a run, I usually havea smaller play available. Won't pay as much, usually "easier", although it may fall outside their normal expertises. And I offer the other job to the NPC Runner teams I have floating around, and extrapolate how well they do. Sometimes, the PCs will hear about the results on the news.
Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 17 2011, 11:52 AM
If the GM builds in a refusal as part of a plot well then fair enough. But in that case the GM has to be ready for PCs accepting the deal too... stranger things have happened
Bollocks to that.
The roleplaying is a huge part of the game, and if I'm roleplaying, and there is no way in living heck my character would take that job, then I won't take that job. Any GM worthy of the title will take things like that into account when planning his game. If he can't do that, then I probably don't want to be playing his game anyway.
If the roleplaying wasn't an important part of the game I'd be playing DMZ. Or chess.
***
The only exception would be a missions game, in which the GM and the players meet cold, and so everyone is aware that the game won't be tailored to the players. However, in such a case, its up to the players to make sure their character personalities are such that they can accept most jobs without having to break character.
Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 17 2011, 12:44 PM
If the GM builds in a refusal as part of a plot well then fair enough. But in that case the GM has to be ready for PCs accepting the deal too... stranger things have happened
I disagree. If a GM makes a job that's totally unacceptable to a character, for example morally ("go kill everyone in the orphanage"), because it sounds unreasonably dangerous ("go break into Aztechnology HQ"), it's just not paying enough ("You want us to overthrow a government for 5K each?") or aids the enemy ("our all-troll party is going to do a job for Humanis?"), it's the right thing to turn it down.
Of course, it's annoying when that happens. It's a classic RPG problem: how to bait your adventure in such a way that the PCs would want to engage it. But there's also a classic solution:
1) The GM needs to know about the PCs. Players should tell the GM what motivates the PCs, what they want. Also, what they're against; moral limits, things they hate. Basically, if you use the 20 Questions from Runners' Companion, this should work out fine, and the GM can avoid mishaps.
2) The GM should put some wiggle room in. Johnson should be willing to negotiate some parts of the job - payment of course, but perhaps also deadlines, what kind of casualties are acceptable and so forth, just to alleviate some PC objections. (Money tends to do a good job of smoothing over objections; "I know what I'm asking you to do is morally wrong, but think of all the good you could do with the money I'm offering you!")
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 01:47 PM
Didn't someone do that? A cow engineered to secret novacoke, if I remember correctly, and so when they nabbed it, it was tripping balls on its own milk and due to an implanted comlink shouted "I'M BEING STOLEN."
Posted by: squee_nabob Aug 17 2011, 01:47 PM
You can also have your fixer call you with three potential jobs lined up, then the GM reuses parts of the adventures that weren't run (same layouts or security two runs down the line).
Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Aug 17 2011, 01:57 PM
If the GM builds in a refusal as part of a plot well then fair enough. But in that case the GM has to be ready for PCs accepting the deal too... stranger things have happened
This can be directly translated into the deal with teh J: If the runners walk away, then the offer wasn't good enough. Either the GM compromises and increases pay/makes things more attractive, or he doesn't, and everyone has to deal with the consequences. If he is then pissed, then he just sucks as a GM.
Posted by: Kalvan Aug 17 2011, 02:00 PM
We refused to get involved with Seattle Mafia politics involving the O'Malleys and Finnigans.
We didn't get involved in the events of [i][Emergence/i].
We didn't take up offers on several runs involing Dunkelzahn's will.
As much as several of us wanted to do it, we ultimately didn't do or take any part in a plot against Kenneth Brackhaven's life.
Posted by: DamienKnight Aug 17 2011, 03:50 PM
In our group everyone has two characters. This allows one character to have some downtime (injury, surgery, etc) and the player can still play with their other character. It also allows for more realistic job accepting/declining. If one of your characters has high morals and wont kidnap a child for a mission, they can turn down the job and the player can pull out their other character.
With that in mind, we routinely have characters turn down jobs because either it is not paying enough, or it goes against the characters moral code (be it helping a drug dealer, murdering or otherwise harassing the innocent, or working for a corp they dont trust.)
One other time the GM had an Indian Johnson (that guy can do a fantastic Indian accent) which annoyed one of the players and made him feel like the Johnson did not know what he was doing (thats really a bit racist now that I think about it, but I guess that player really is a bit racist) and was a very paranoid player anyway. When the mission involved riding in a sub into an underwater base (which the GM had painstakingly mapped out in detail) he flat out turned down the job, saying he always needed a way to retreat from a run, and he cant swim out if they are that deep.
I spent 30 minutes trying to convince him to take the job, but he never took it. We ended up playing Borderlands on PS3 and forcing that player to make another less paranoid character for the next time something like that came up.
His next character was a Pimp who loved fried chicken (brought it to the meets and offered it to Mr. Johnson) and would do ANYthing for money. Wow, yeeeaah.. that guy was super racist now that I think about it.
Ah, but my point is, have your players create backup characters so they dont violate their characters beliefs just for a chance to play.
Posted by: kzt Aug 17 2011, 07:38 PM
Playing another game, I had a GM who offered us some pretty ugly job, like kidnapping a kid. We refused it and he the guy said, "Great. I really didn't think I was dealing with people who would take that kind of a job, but I needed to know before I hired someone to stop the people who I know are going to kidnap..."
It worked really well, he was prepared to handle whichever side you wanted to play.
Posted by: Draco18s Aug 17 2011, 07:50 PM
It worked really well, he was prepared to handle whichever side you wanted to play.
Nice.
Way to turn the "Accept Quest [y/n]" into an "Accept Quest [y/y]" option.
Sure, the details changed, but there's no way that the players could have known prior to selecting their option what the dialog tree was going to say.
(That is, if they'd accepted, he'd have given them a job anyway)
I always love those kinds of tricks.
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Aug 18 2011, 12:36 AM
Back in 3rd edition a johnson offered us a total of 100 000 nuyen to whack Maurice Bigio.
I said, "No way!" The rest of the group silently but unanimously agreed.
The GM was very surprised and none of us understood why he was so surprised. 100K for a team of 4. 25000 nuyen each. Kill the head mafia man of Seattle. Suuuure that won't come back to bite us in the ass...
Posted by: suoq Aug 18 2011, 01:10 AM
I said, "No way!" The rest of the group silently but unanimously agreed.
The GM was very surprised and none of us understood why he was so surprised. 100K for a team of 4. 25000 nuyen each. Kill the head mafia man of Seattle. Suuuure that won't come back to bite us in the ass...
Once the other three dropped out, I would have seriously considered that offer.
Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 18 2011, 01:38 AM
Whether you succeeded or not, it could be a crowning moment of awesome, depending how far the character gets.
Posted by: scarius Aug 18 2011, 02:24 AM
Don't forget that the old "sniper on the roof with a good gun and a camera on the rifle" can also get the job done from a distance with not many people knowing who made the shot
Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 18 2011, 05:18 AM
I'm surprised there aren't more hits using stealth drones with anti-vehicle missles. It works for the USAF today, and drones are cheap and available in the 6th world.
Posted by: Psikerlord Aug 18 2011, 10:57 AM
Just to clarify my earlier post - I am assuming the GM is offering a worthy job, one which bascially fits the PCs. If not, well, yes, GM could be in trouble - but what GM is going to offer a job they suspect the PCs won't take (putting aside the scenario where you are supposed to reject it, and the GM has another "real job" prepared)
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 01:03 PM
This is another example of Lost Tech from before the Crash of 2029.
Posted by: Xahn Borealis Aug 18 2011, 02:29 PM
*le snip*
Ah, but my point is, have your players create backup characters so they dont violate their characters beliefs just for a chance to play.
That's pretty clever, they could be each other's contacts too, maybe even sharing gear. "I don't have a rocket launcher, but my alt- I mean my friend does."
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