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Posted by: Stormdrake Aug 15 2011, 07:38 PM

Magic Fingers as it is written does not preclude picking one’s self up and moving yourself, or does it? May seem a little silly but I can’t see in the RAW were you could not do this. Is it munchkin? Yes but do the rules preclude it?

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 15 2011, 07:40 PM

I dunno. How much do "you" weigh? How much can the magic fingers pick up?

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 15 2011, 07:48 PM

Strength equal to number of hits on your spell test. So unless you're really lightweight, or tossing a hugely powerful spell, probably not.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 15 2011, 07:49 PM

Maybe you can give yourself a pick-me-up, make yourself smile when you're down...

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 15 2011, 08:06 PM

Just use Levitate instead?

Posted by: Irion Aug 15 2011, 08:36 PM

Yes you can.
Because if reaction would apply, there would be a hell of other problems.
(Normally the strength of a mage is not that high to support magic fingers...)

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 15 2011, 08:37 PM

What? Why would anyone do the reasonable thing?

Posted by: Traul Aug 15 2011, 09:05 PM

It works for pixies, but what's the point since they can already fly?

Posted by: pbangarth Aug 16 2011, 04:38 AM

An obvious option, but if you had Magic Fingers and could use them to simulate the function of Levitate, then you could have two spells for the price of one.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 04:50 AM

Which should clue you in that it shouldn't do that.

Posted by: Blitz66 Aug 16 2011, 06:35 AM

Properly applied, Magic Fingers could simulate a few other spells. An Illusion spell comes to mind...

C'mon, guys. Innuendo 101. Anybody?!

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 16 2011, 07:16 AM

If the Strength of the fingers was high enough then yes, but being picked up by a pair of hands is very unlikely to be as effective as levitate. Are they picking you up under the feet, under the armpits, by the clothing over your shoulders, by gripping your waist? I struggle to imagine any approach that would not call for a DP penalty to the subject. Speed of movement would be pretty poor too.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 16 2011, 11:27 AM

Well, if all you want is levitate up the wall or down from a rooftop - can't see why not.
Actually, I'd allow that second usage case even for the Strength ratings not high enough to lift you.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 01:38 PM

Well, Levitate also does what Fling does.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:55 PM

Sort of.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 02:05 PM

Not really. Dropping anvils on people will work with levitate. Propelling light objects to high speeds for damage won't.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 06:24 PM

Not exactly like, but nearly so. All it's missing is the Strength = 1/2 Magic caveat.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 06:29 PM

How much damage can a light object at 20 m/round=24 km/h (Force 5, 5 hits) do?

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 06:31 PM

Damage codes aren't given, but we have a precedent in the description of Levitate to refer to Fling.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 06:36 PM

Yeah I know that line but It still seems weird that for example pencils of playing cards at that speed should do damage. It's much easier to imagine using heavy objects and drop them, using the ranged attack test to see if the anvil or other object is on target.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 06:45 PM

If I get 5 net successes with a F6 spell to move a chair, it's going at 10 meters a second. If that hits someone, it'll hurt. If I do it with a pencil, a pencil going 10 meters a second creats a good amount of PSI at the tip (or heck, even the eraser).

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 16 2011, 08:59 PM

That is only 36 KPH, unless it is designed as a weapon or hits in a really awesome part of the body a small object really wont do much. On the other hand 200kgs of hard object moving 36 kph would sting.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 17 2011, 12:18 AM

I guess. It comes out to about 33 feet per second, which is 1/1000 the speed of a bullet.

Posted by: Irion Aug 17 2011, 08:01 AM

It should be considered that kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v².
So a bullet moving with half the speed has only 1/4 of the energy...
So your 1/1000 the speed of the bullet would leave you with 1/1.000.000 the energy of a bullet (if we assume same mass).

Posted by: Neraph Aug 17 2011, 03:26 PM

So then... what's the base DV of an item thrown with Levitate?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 03:35 PM

Depends upon how high up he was before he was thrown off the building.

Posted by: Irion Aug 18 2011, 07:59 AM

Depends on the object, the speed and the angle.

From a game design point of view: Always less than the fling spell.

Posted by: Makki Aug 18 2011, 08:01 AM

you have the speed as in the spell description, now ram the levitated guy against a wall/vehicle/barrier and use the Ramming rules

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 08:48 AM

Can I use Slow to slowly fall from a building instead of as a bullet shield, provided I am a troll and not exactly lightweight? Or would you recommend Magic Finger or Levitate instead?

Posted by: Irion Aug 18 2011, 08:57 AM

@hermit
Yes you can.

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 18 2011, 10:02 AM

I always thought that was the intended purpose of the Slow spell, actually.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 12:51 PM

It is...

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 18 2011, 02:22 PM

Along with stopping bullets and grenades (it's all right there in the spell description).

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 04:05 PM

Point is: trollls weigh a lot. Assuming them to be 1,5 times as massive AND twice as tall as a human, we're talking easily 400 kg here. Add to that 100 kg of equipment and clothes, and you need 3 hits or the troll just falls. And that's assuming your troll is part of a one-man team. Plus, Slow is a sustained area, so you need to plan ahead and have good LOS, and are less flexible, unless you want to cast it at the last possible moment. Personally, I think Levitate works better.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 04:51 PM

Really? At 50 KG per Hit? The Troll now needs 10 Net Hits to be affected or he falls. Doesn't look like it works better to me.

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 06:03 PM

Wasn't levitate at 200/hit?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 06:12 PM

Nope... 50 kg/Hit. Mass Levitate is 200 kg/Hit.

Posted by: Mardrax Aug 18 2011, 06:35 PM

Deehrm...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 06:56 PM

Ooops... What the hell am I remembering then?

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 07:28 PM

Ha, my memory works. ^_^

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 18 2011, 08:52 PM

Other than the broken parts the only real benefits of slow are the magical instant slow with no damage parts and it hits multiple targets. The problem with levitate in stopping a fall is if you are falling X meters a second levitate would only cancel force x net hits meters per combat turn. Which works fine if you cast it early, not so great if you are trying to slow/stop the fall at the last instant. Trolls screw things up but a party of more human sized people can be slowed, where with levitate that would be one hell of a multicasting roll. It is a cool concept, but overall yes slow is just a sad levitate if you ignore the bad bullet immunity parts.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 18 2011, 09:08 PM

Actually that is not the case. After a successful casting you can move the object at a speed of up to Force x net hits m/Turnin any direction. The target will simple be accelerated/decelerated to the appropriate speed. Yes, this breaks the laws of physics, but hey it's magic.

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 09:26 PM

All levitation-related spells break the laws of physics. All magic does, actually. It's why they call it magic!

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 18 2011, 09:30 PM

Dakka Dakka, I think that's the point. Being *instantly decelerated* to the Levitate speed might be nearly as bad as hitting the ground.

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 09:58 PM

It's the same effect Slow has, just a lot more versatile.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 18 2011, 10:02 PM

Indeed it does... Not sure why mine is failing me at this moment, but there it is.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 18 2011, 10:39 PM

Hahah, well, luckily, no, not nearly the same.

Posted by: hermit Aug 18 2011, 10:50 PM

That's refering to the spell helping you survive jumping off a cliff. It's true "use" is in making mages immune to mundane damage.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 18 2011, 11:42 PM

And some magical danger. Blast, Sonic, Metal, and probably some other element types would be severely hampered by a 1m/sec restriction. Others would give the mage time to move out of the way (say, fire?)

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 18 2011, 11:57 PM

I don't know. I might say Fire and cold wouldn't be affected at all, since it saps Kinetic energy. Blast, and metal for sure, sand and water as well. Possibly Sonic. Probably Ice. It all depends on if you think the energy is Kinetic, or something else (like heat, or lack of)

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 12:04 AM

Fire I could see as doing full damage, after a round or two as it passes through the intervening area. Cold would be uneffected, as would electricity. Light would be highly questionable (does light only move at 1m/sec inside the zone? ) although I'd say not effected.

Blast: negated
Ice: uneffected
Light: uneffected
Metal: negated
Sand: partial. It could still jam up machines.
Smoke: partial. Slow isn't going to do anything about visibility penalties beyond it's range.
Sound: I'm reversing on this one. Sound waves aren't limited by speed limits, as they are the collision of one molecule with another (Slow isn't Silence) and each molecule doesn't move that fast.
Water: negated

Posted by: Bearclaw Aug 19 2011, 03:16 AM

OK, WTF is "Slow"?

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 03:23 AM

It's a spell from War.

It reduces all object velocities to 1 meter per second within its radius.
Range equal to force, as usual. Maximum amount of moving material is 200 kg * Force, IIRC.

Basically, it's the "I stop bullets, all of them" spell. (At force 2, bullets fall to the ground before they even reach you, at the center).

The German book doesn't have it and is considered to have been errata'd out of existence.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 11:47 AM

Yeah, it was supposed to be a spell for paradrops, but turns out you have to actually think before and during writing spell descriptions.

Posted by: Irion Aug 19 2011, 12:24 PM

Which tends to be a disliked policy in RPGs.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 19 2011, 12:58 PM

I know your pain...

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 02:08 PM

Emphasis on "during" due to the "it stops bullets" note right there in the spell description.

The only thing the spell doesn't do (besides make you immune to magic, but you're a mage with counterspelling, so...) is being hit by a car.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 02:20 PM

...by a truck. With a good roll, you can stop most passenger cars, too (without even the question of whether your spell will stop the hood first, once it touches the area of effect).

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 19 2011, 03:07 PM

What mass do you assume for most passenger cars? Over 1000kg doesn't seem too far off, so 6+ hits is really a good roll.

Don't divide up ensembles into parts otherwise you will ge a lot of effects that surely are not in the description of the spell and most likely not intended either.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 03:12 PM

200 kg per point of force (max).

A mini cooper is 1200 kg. This means that for the smallest car on the market, you'd have to be rocking 6 hits on a force 6 spell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 03:23 PM

Not counting the passengers, who will certainly add to the weight of the vehicle.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 03:35 PM

Oh indeed, that's the curb weight (actually, the curb weight is about 1115 kg).

Posted by: Kirk Aug 19 2011, 04:28 PM

Yep. Definitely a house rule spell for me, but largely because I know a little about kinetic energy. If'n I had to roll my own, it would be as a deceleration rate (say, 50 per combat turn) to 1 m/s with a mass limit of 100 kg per point (force + hits). With that I can work out a DV modifier, but I can't stop bullets or speeding cars (easily, that is). I'm still ignoring velocity squared, but I can handwave that some with "it's magic".

By the way, the nominal drop speed of a body before the parachute pops out works out to pretty close to 55 meters per combat turn. Memory says there's an actual fall speed table but I can't find it.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 04:40 PM

Well, yeah, ok, it'd require a really good roll.
However, I see zero reasons for the spell not to affect whatever part of the vehicle first arrives in its zone of effect.
Anyway, it's a hilariously bad spell, symptomatic of War!, and I don't think we need to discuss it yet again any more (for what, the fourth time now).

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 19 2011, 04:43 PM

I'm just glad that they thought to include the phrase "relative to the local mana sphere" such that it didn't cause people to fly out through the kitchen window, as the earth sped by on its trip around the sun.
(Reminding me of http://365tomorrows.com/02/28/frame-of-reference/)