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Posted by: Loch Aug 16 2011, 05:23 AM

Just a brain fart for a character idea bouncing around. Let's say you have a heavy weapons troll (or heavy weapons augmented ork) who has enough RC stacked up to fire a minigun on full burst with no recoil penalty. In order to get all the RC you basically need to pad out the last few points with high Strength (after gyromount and assorted mods/attachments). But what if he didn't JUST carry a minigun? What about a character who basically has a truck full of big guns? What would be some other good weapons to include besides Natascha?

Or is this a dumb idea and I should focus my energies on giving him other abilities besides shooting a big gun really well?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 05:30 AM

Yeah, there's no great point in just having a big machine gun. There are lots easier ways to do that. The utility of the Heavy Weapons skill is that you get MGs, GLs, and rockets (depends on how sane your scatter rules are).

And yes, specializing too much on firing a big, obvious gun is maybe a not-fun idea. It limits your play options.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 16 2011, 05:40 AM

You can turn this into a character with lots of fun. Depending on background, where he learned to use those big guns, he may have some other skills that are equally scary and specifically complementary. Like when his underbarrel weapon is a laser designator, and the rigger has a mortar a few blocks away. Or maybe team with a medic mage with an ubercharge Armor spell?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 16 2011, 05:44 AM

Oh, come on, everyone can use a Panther Assault Cannon! Even Wimpy Hackers!

...

Named Bull.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 16 2011, 05:47 AM

There is a grenade launcher that is technically a pistol, don't forget. : )

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 05:50 AM

Ugh, don't remind anyone. Not that it's a problem, because it's clearly under the Grenade Launcher/etc. section, explicitly preceded by a section saying you use Heavy Weapons skill for all of them. If a player tries to BS using Pistol skill with it, I let it shoot nano-grenades. Which coincidentally do nano-amounts of damage.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 06:22 AM

Why use a minigun at all? While the damage is nice the weapon has all sorts of drawbacks that make it a vehicle weapon at best:

• It takes a simple Action to get it to speed, meaning it can only fire in your second action phase.
• as soon as the motor starts you will become a target, so no surprise attacks
• Unless you get a very high dice pool suppressive fire isn't that great. Chances are people will simply dodge and shoot back. That's even without the "loophole" of dropping prone and shooting back
• Full bursts only, so no called shots
• Lots of investment and the need for optional rules to remove recoil.
• Without GM Fiat you can only get a Minigun based on an LMG.

Just take a regular machine gun, slap on a Gas vent 3, Shock Pad and a Heavy Barrel and put it in a Gyromount and even the weakest character can fire full bursts (and all other firing modes) - while running without any modifiers. You can even add BF or SA firing mode to satisfy the RAW for Called Shots. All this can be done at CharGen with an MMG for ¥13150 or under 3 BP.
Just putting the White Knight into a gyromount will be even cheaper.

@Yerameyahu: I don't think he wanted to use the pistols skill. I think he wanted to point out that not all "heavy" weapons are large and unconcealable. If the former is the case, as a GM I would have to show him my proficiency with Exotic Melee Weapon (rolled up newspaper)

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 16 2011, 06:41 AM

Full bursts only, so no called shots

No called Shots with Full Burst ??
It might be RAI but is it RAW ?
Can You give a Page reference (Preferebly in German or maybe a PM ?)

with a curious Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: The Jopp Aug 16 2011, 06:53 AM

Why not go the silly route?

Take a rigger.
Give him Gunnery (Remote Control)
Add a pilot rating to all your heavy weapons
Add the mobility mod (crawling)

Now the rigger can use the gunnery skill while tooting around a lot of heavy weapons.

...for some reason I DO see some GM intervention in the above area...

*EDIT*
Might just need Crawler Drone [Gun] as a specialization otherwise and order the drone pilot to fire.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 16 2011, 07:05 AM

Heck, just mount some gun turrets on a personal mobility device. Hot ASIST, talk through your commlink. You too can be "Stephen Hawking: The Revenge"

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 16 2011, 09:06 AM

Remote control isn't listed as a valid specialty for gunnery, and I'd question the logic of an GM who would allow it

Posted by: scarius Aug 16 2011, 10:28 AM

So you just put the heavy weapons on a walker, slave it to you comlink, walk behind it shooting it your self.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:14 PM

There are an unlimited number of viable specialties. The ones listed are not the only ones possible.
Whether the above specialty is sane is another issue entirely. But it would be valid.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 01:28 PM

True, but if you limit yourself to one type of heavy weapons, you can achieve the same thing


Actually, no. By strict RAW, the list of specialties is exhaustive unless the list has an etc. or similar opening wording. The BBB only allows the creation of new skills with specialization not new specializations to existing skills. I doubt it is RAI but that's what the authors wrote.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:35 PM

Which the FAQ Clarifies (and does so without actually changing the rules, like a Good FAQ should)... Sooooo... Unlimited Specialties.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 01:55 PM

Baring sanity checks by the GM.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 01:59 PM

Baring Sanity Checks by the GM, Of Course...

Posted by: Miri Aug 16 2011, 02:06 PM

If you GM is having to roll Sanity Checks.. I don't think you are playing Shadowrun...

Posted by: Seerow Aug 16 2011, 02:06 PM

So yeah, a weapon being fired in full auto can't make a called shot.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 02:15 PM

Which pretty much makes sense.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 16 2011, 02:32 PM

Naah, you are missing the point.... The Sanity Checks are a Rolled Up Newspaper to the offending Player's head. Good for the GM, and a lesson for the Player.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 02:33 PM

Haha. Well, not actual dice checks, just checking to make sure you aren`t trying anything to damage his (likely fragile) sanity.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 16 2011, 02:34 PM

This too.

Posted by: TP13 Aug 16 2011, 02:37 PM

For miniguns there is an MMG one in the arsenal german content. Also the Ballista missile launcher is a backpack so you can have it on and use your arms to carry other heavy weapons.

Posted by: toturi Aug 16 2011, 02:45 PM

Oh no, the sanity checks are said newspaper to the offending GM's head, wielded in turn by his players (plural). Good for the GM, happy fun time for the players. Remember there are often more players than there are GMs.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 06:54 PM

I figured you use Heavy Weapons even though it's a pistol-sized weapon because of how you aim it, not its size. Otherwise you could argue that daggers and claymores take different skills to wield.

EDIT:

Which is why you give your minigun Electronic Firing.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 07:14 PM

How would electronic firing increase the acceleration of the barrels?

Posted by: Neraph Aug 16 2011, 07:15 PM

Arguably, Electronic Firing means that all the bullets now fire by that method, not spinning the barrels.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 07:24 PM

Electronic firing only means that that the propellant is detonated by an electric impulse and not by a kinetic impulse. How the projectile leaves the chamber has nothing to do with the way the propellant is ignited.

Miniguns can achieve higher rates of fire because the barrels have more time (6 times as much) to cool down between shots. If the barrel gets too hot, it may warp, cause a misfire and/or break the weapon. Removing the rotating barrels will also remove the advantage of the minigun.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 16 2011, 08:22 PM

Nothing arguably does anything, Mr. RAW. Hehe. I'd let players do the 'keep it spun up' trick, but maybe it makes a whining noise or something. As long as there's a good enough tradeoff.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 16 2011, 08:44 PM

Me too. There is nothing against it in the rules either. And the whirring sound is mentioned as well, on the Vindicator at least. I don't know if the medium minigun from the German Arsenal has those drawbacks.

Posted by: Bigity Aug 16 2011, 08:45 PM

There is the noise and the battery life of the motor, -which, given how much cyber is powered by the electrical impulses of the body and such - probably isn't worth tracking.

Predator has some good scenes of a minigun barrel spinning without firing (though I think it's only when the guy runs out of bullets).

Posted by: EKBT81 Aug 16 2011, 08:47 PM

I'd second looking at grenade launchers.

I'll also second thinking about another possible skill field. At least for me, one-trick ponies aren't much fun. You might also run into conflicts with other players if they don't like the "blunt force" approach and have their character optimised for other approaches like stealth or social engineering. Your character's utility obviously varies with your group's interpretation of the setting and the type of runs the players prefer.

For example in my Shadowrun world, heavy weapons have a very limited utility for "classic" steal-the-prototype run, mainly providing "shock and awe" to allow breaking away from the opposition before their reinforcements arrive. They are next to useless if the run is one of those "no one must ever notice" missions. On one of those jobs your character would be limited to waiting for providing fire support if the mission fails and your team needs to get away from the pursuing security. I'd find that rather boring. On the other hand he'd be the perfect candidate for the "take out this gang headquarter in the barrens" job.

If your character has a broader set of skills you allow your GM to present a broader range of possible runs.

Posted by: Neraph Aug 17 2011, 12:23 AM

I was voicing that for Ragewind. He doesn't want to get sucked back into Dumpshock.

Posted by: Loch Aug 17 2011, 02:29 AM

Well I do generally play with a more pink mohawk style group, so I don't think there will be much of an issue with stealth runs. We have kind of a stealthy group already, and we just lost our main gunbunny for regular sessions, so I'm thinking about an alternate character to play as a "distraction" to the infiltrators and rigger/hacker we have. Big guy, big gun, seems appropriate. Of course he'd probably have other skills as well (demolition and pilot come to mind), but this is really sort of for a backup character, since I have a stealth-based mysad already rolled up.

Posted by: CrowOfPyke Aug 17 2011, 03:43 AM

Back in 2nd Ed we had a guy playing a Troll street samurai who maxed out his Body and Strength. He packed around a Vindicator Cannon no problem. Add to that because of his Bioware enhancements the player *literally* rolled a KFC bucket of D6's whenever he had to make a damage resistance test, and well... he was nigh invulnerable. You didn't want to hear from a Troll named Cheeseburger.

This was of course uber-cheese, even for 2nd edition. But it was fun for a while.

Sometimes, just sometimes, I miss the silliness of 2nd edition.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 17 2011, 04:03 AM

It definitely uses Heavy Weapons skill, I was just pointing out that it is, relatively speaking, rather concealable.

(My own Minotaur Heavy Weapons Guy, who I'm finally getting a chance to play, uses one.)

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 17 2011, 04:04 AM

Aw, sorry then. I've definitely had people claim it's a Pistol pistol.

Posted by: Loch Aug 17 2011, 07:14 AM

Thinking about this a little more:

GE Vindicator Minigun
With Gyro stabilization
Add a Gas Vent 3
Add Heavy Barrel
Add Hip Pad
Add Personalized Grip

On a troll with at least Str 10 (probably via cyberarm), that's 14 RC, yes?

Any mods or accessories for the minigun you think I've overlooked? What would be some good mods for an MGL-6 (holdout of choice)?

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 17 2011, 07:27 AM

Or, if your GM will allow you to go back to earlier editions for weapons, there's the Ares HV-LMG from Fields of Fire or the Cannon Companion. Even if you can't get those books, to translate to 4th edition, just apply HVAR / super machine gun rules to an LMG. Slightly reduced rate-of-fire compared a minigun, but more controllable recoil, internal smartlink and recoil comp, can do long bursts as well as full ones, and still higher ROF than a normal LMG. And spinning-barrel BFG coolness without the spin-up time of a minigun. I really don't see why they removed it in 4e, yet kept the HVAR and the SuperMach 100.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 17 2011, 01:43 PM

I would require you to get Gas Vents and Heavy Barrel six times for a minigun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 17 2011, 02:48 PM

Indeed...

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Aug 17 2011, 03:08 PM

I would say that someone who is having you post by proxy is *more* sucked into DS as they can't stay away.

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 17 2011, 03:33 PM

Me too
6x heavy barrel is too Expensive but you can get a Top Mounted (personalized) Foregrip

with a Topdance
Medicineman

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 17 2011, 03:42 PM

Foregrip does not stack with the gyromount. It would be a poor trade.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 17 2011, 04:09 PM

But you need the Foregrip for Tacti-Cool!

Posted by: KCKitsune Aug 17 2011, 04:37 PM

Miniguns are so last century!

Dual wield grenade pistols for Maximum Win™! If you got wired reflexes 2 or better, you can empty each gun in one round. Nothing like 12 grenades going off to really ruin your day!

Posted by: Medicineman Aug 17 2011, 04:55 PM

Quite possible, but the personalized gives +1 Recoil
And its simply necessary ImO to look cool.


what about a Nartaki with 4 Hands and 4 MGL6 ?

with a cool looking Dance
Medicineman