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Posted by: sunnyside Aug 19 2011, 02:56 AM

It's been out for a good six years now, which is roughly seventy two in edition years.

I'm getting to that point where I get reluctant to buy any more products, expecting them to all be invalidated in the near future. Any word that they're planning to keep this edition around unusually long? Or if they've got some kinda promise where books after a certain date will have conversion PDFs printed for free after the new edition hits, or that conversion rules will appear in some version of the new edition's core book? I seem to recall they did that with one of the editions long ago now that I'm typing this.

Posted by: Fyndhal Aug 19 2011, 03:03 AM

4a sort of threw the "schedule" out of whack. As a result, I expect SR4a to last another 2 years. Maybe a little less, maybe a bit more, but probably around 2 years.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, of course.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 03:46 AM

Honestly, not sure myself. There have been some problems with 4e, which has caused books to come out erratically, which may quicken or slow the process onto a new edition.

Honestly, I think we'll see 4e last for awhile as long as CGL is making the books, but if a different company gets the rights, I'd suspect we'd see a different edition.

Me I'm hoping for a new edition, I'm not fond of most of the more recent releases and I think 4e has gotten a bit stagnent.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 03:54 AM

Maybe they can use that new 4^th Edition D&D rules I've been hearing so much about?

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 03:56 AM

Ahh D&D, it started as a fantasy war game(chainmail), turned into an RPG, and is now a wargame again.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 04:00 AM

A wargame, ripping off a MMO.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 04:01 AM

Which ripped off D&D in the first place.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 04:07 AM

*Sings in the key of off* "The CIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRCLE of life!!!"

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 05:05 AM

Of course, SR ripped off it's fair share of sources. I imagine someone read through Neuromancer and Lord of the Rings while drunk and...

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 19 2011, 05:11 AM

I guess we've found Mr. Gibson's board posting handle.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 05:39 AM

Nah, I think he's been a Vancouverite long enough to suggest something a little stronger than alcohol.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 05:49 AM

People always say this. I don't think the ones who say this actually play a lot of mmos. D&D 4e is nothing like an MMO mechanically. And if the game plays that way, it's the fault of the DM not the system.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 05:51 AM

Seemed that way to the few games I tried, both of 4th and MMOs. Get mission from guy, go kill ten snow moose or whatever, come back for reward.

But, as you said, GM. But I've heard the same statement from other people who do play MMOs and have tried different GMs.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 05:58 AM

To be fair, D&D 4e is a wargame, anyone saying otherwise is in denial. 90+% of your character are combat numbers, movement speed, special abilities with areas, special effectives, ect. Tactical grid based combat is essential to the system, and the non-combat mechanics are as shallow as a cat bowl. A good DM can make a very run and exciting game, and players can RP with the system, but the system is still a wargame.

I can RP while I play monopoly if I want.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 06:04 AM

Well I can say I never had a quest that was "Go out, kill X of this, come back for reward". I can also say I've never played an MMO where powers didn't have some in combat recharge mechanic, or one where the amount of healing over the course of a day (or in an MMO throughout a raid) was limited. I also don't think there's any MMOs where tanks maintain aggro on their targets by penalizing the target for hitting others, but leaving the option available. Note: 4e's introduction of defenders and marks is the biggest complaint that I've seen, because people associate tanking with MMOs. But the 4e method of tanking leaves it up to the GM to weigh the cost vs benefit of just ignoring the mark, in no case is any creature ever forced to attack the guy in full plate to the exclusion of everyone else no matter how stupid that tactic seems or how poorly it is working. This is vastly different from any MMO.

In fact, there are roughly 2 similarities with MMOs I see in 4e D&D: 1) There is a pretty heavy emphasis on combat mechanics. In both instances, this does not mean this is what you must focus on. You can play for months in D&D without fighting one enemy, but most groups don't play that way. Similarly, you can run around in WoW as a level 1 roleplaying experiencing the world and trying to avoid these huge skull leveled creatures trying to kill you, but most don't.

2) There are clearly defined roles in the group, and everyone fills the role. I think this is the one that gets peoples goat more than anything (see also: The tanking thing mentioned above, which is related to this), but really, it is good game design. We don't consider Shadowrun an MMO because you have the street sammy, the hacker, and the mage, each filling their own role in the group. D&D3.5 had a big issue with this particular problem because there weren't defined roles, so it became casters do everything for everyone else, including front line melee combat in the rare event that option was actually useful, and everyone else was useless. Rather than continue that trend, 4e shored things up and narrowed down the options to have each class fill a role in the party. People missed their mage being able to do anything, and thus complained about D&D becoming more MMO-like, because suddenly they don't have tools to bypass adventures and dominate encounters singlehandedly. But I do want to point out, this does not make the game MMO-esque, a creative group still has plenty of options, you just no longer have one player with nigh infinite options, and another player with 1 option.



Now, I'm not saying 4e is perfect. The developers could have left a little more wiggle room all around with regards to options and customization without repeating the mistakes of their past, and I do prefer both 3.5 and Shadowrun to it. However I feel that calling it MMO-esque is a pretty big misnomer, and it is a pet peeve of mine.



I won't disagree with this. But there's a huge step from a wargame and an MMO. And that line only really gets crossed if you have an exceptionally lazy DM (who does the aformentioned go kill 10 buffalo, bring me back their wings for a reward style quests)

Posted by: WhiskeyJohnny Aug 19 2011, 06:07 AM

In fact, Mr. Gibson, some of the best roleplaying I've ever seen was at the Monopoly board.

As far as how long 4th will last - have there been any rumblings of a new system? Might the recent troubles at CGL have delayed any planned new edition?

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 19 2011, 06:13 AM

I personally don't like the MMO comparison, but I understand it. 4e basically boiled characters down to a bunch of "crunchy bits", singular abilities that have direct combat applications and rules spelled out. There is less wiggle room to be creative with the use of the abilities, and frankly every class is the same, just have a bunch of abilities that "deal X damage and do Y"

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 11:28 AM

Seriously, a D&D4E shitstorm? Here? Aren't you messing up dumpshock with /tg/ or something, gentlemen?

Also, back to initial topic. I hate switching editions (and I don't really like learning the crunch of new systems, unlike the fluff, to be completely honest). So, unless 5E will be a massive improvement, tears of rage will be shed.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 19 2011, 11:37 AM

I would say atleast 2-3 years, as there seems to be quite a lot of books in different states of development.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 19 2011, 11:37 AM

SR4 will last for as long as people play it, no matter what the publishers do.

UNLESS SR5 is astonishingly good, so good that it makes every current SR player abandon SR4 at the drop of a hat - but really? How likely is it that a new edition pleases all of the players?

There are still dozens of websites hosting SR3 material, after all. SO even if the publisher decides to do nothing more for SR4, its likely that plenty of new fan-made material will continue to arrive - and based on the negative attitude that every new current sourcebook gets from dumpshockers, the quality of said stuff will be just as good :

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 19 2011, 12:09 PM

SR5D20 *runs*

Posted by: suoq Aug 19 2011, 12:32 PM

If it was organized and consistent, I'd switch today.

I've lost track of the number of hacking threads that claim the authors didn't even understand their own rules. I've watched people argue that rules are fluff (which leaves us with entire situations that have no rules). I'm convinced that not only do I still not understand the rules, I'm convinced that not a single poster on Dumpshock understands the rules. (Though some of them will argue against that with their dying breath.)

We should not be this far into things and still not have a clue what you need to spoof, how to spoof, or why you would bother. Despite skinlinking to keep someone from ejecting your "clip", I don't think we can get two people to agree HOW a hacker actually goes through the process of getting your "clip" to eject in-combat before combat is over, even if it isn't skinlinked.

All 5th has to do to win me over is be organized and consistent, to the point where everyone understands it.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 19 2011, 01:27 PM

*Joins the choir*
And it moves us all
Through despair and hope
Through faith and love
.....


Now, seriously, new editions are a fact of life. I've been through 3 editions of D&D (4 if you count 3.5 as a differente edition), 4 editions of L5R (third edition, how I hate thee), 3 white wolf editions and 3 GURPS editions and 2 Shadowrun editions (moved from second edition to fourth, never played the third one).
And as far I as can tell, and this is MY OPINION, all games were an improvement of the last one with the exception of L5R 3ed and D&D 4ed.
I can see a lot of flaws in Shadowrun4, but compared to the the second edition, I think it was one hell of improvement.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 01:31 PM

Well if you look at the precedent (Eclipse Phase, I'm looking at you), changing a bit here and there doesn't really fix 4E's problems. So unless it's something revolutionary, I doubt it will be worth it - and if it is revolutionary, I am sure at least half the current 4E players will frown upon it for the change alone.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 01:37 PM

Really? I like L5R 3rd. Though to be fair, I have yet to see anything on L5R 4th. What did you find objectionable? I found it somewhat less onerous (less powerful) than L5R 2nd. But that was just a matter of scale, I think. I'm Curious. Maybe PM me to keep the derail from extending too much.

Posted by: Bigity Aug 19 2011, 01:39 PM

I tend to agree that CGL will stick with 4th edition for a good while to come, just with all the troubles and issues, it seems the last thing they'd want to do is throw out a ton of effort that went into holding onto the license and putting out books.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 19 2011, 01:40 PM

Is there any noise at all from CGL that they're considering a new edition?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 01:41 PM

Indeed... And, like Fatum, I would heavily resist the "Progress" of a new Edition.

Posted by: Bigity Aug 19 2011, 01:43 PM

I want a new matrix book going back to UMS icons though

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 01:43 PM

Surely this is worthy of an administrative warning? No? No single TOS element bans this? Excuse me while I go update the TOS.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 01:47 PM

Never said I'd resist it if it is noticeably better, just that I'll be extremely cautious.

You could call it trolling, maybe...

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 01:54 PM

It's easy to troll on the forums when you're over three meters tall and have horns.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 01:55 PM

I fully expect to see this in the ToS within the next 10 minutes or I'm reporting this post for trolling.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 02:00 PM

Actually, I think he's making a religious based attack with that.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 02:03 PM

Resisted by WIL + Counterspelling, if available.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 02:05 PM

What's the drain on that kind of attack? And how would you quantify the WIL of the Dumpshock forums as a collective?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 02:09 PM

Great, we're a low-end Dues.

EDIT: Or Dues if he grew up Ghetto.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 02:10 PM

A Ghetto Deus? Sorry, I just could not stop laughing at that one.

Posted by: Infornography Aug 19 2011, 02:11 PM

I think Shadowrun needs a complete makeover.
Sure the 4ed is more streamlined but it's still full of inherited waste and very clunky.
The rules need to be purged badly. I'd prefer them to be less complex and more abstract.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 02:13 PM

MORE Abstract? Really? Hmmmmm.....

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 02:16 PM

The WIL is around 2, 3 tops I'd say judging by the number of glitches resulting in thread derails and pages of pointless bickering.
As to the drain, let's see. Obviously, not Physical (0), Area (+2), Instant (+0), Mental Manipulation (+0), Major Change (+2). So, F/2+4!

Posted by: Infornography Aug 19 2011, 02:23 PM

The basic rules are abstract but certain fields are too simulation-like. Depending on the archetype I'm playing I feel more like an accountant than a player.

Posted by: suoq Aug 19 2011, 02:30 PM

Amen.
Recoil (& compensation) and Social skill modifiers make me yearn for AD&D's (1st ed) encumbrance rules.
I enjoy hacking because it means I can go on a food run and not miss anything.

I think some people enjoy 4th ed, because it allows them to argue online and feel smarter than other people because they have the one true interpretation.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 02:32 PM

If you think recoil is a complex mechanic, I don't understand how you got through hacking, unless your GM throws 3/4 of the rules away.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 02:32 PM

I completely agree with Suoq about this. If 5e has rules that are clear, consistent, and understandable, I would switch today.

My personal metaphor for the SR4 matrix rules is the Mirror of Galadriel. Everyone who looks at them sees something different, and there's no way to know if its nonsense, what the developers intended, what the developers wrote, what was written by 2 different developers who weren't on speaking terms, or what the rules actually say. And if you look too closely, the burning eye of the technomancy rules melts your brain.

The only way to understand the matrix rules is to understand that there are no matrix rules. They can't be fully understood because there just is not a complete, consistent system present to understand.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 02:36 PM

What recoil and recoil compensation is complicated and open to interpretation?

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 02:42 PM

Recoil is pretty cut and dry, but it is sure as hell not simple because of the convoluted stacking rules. If you have a sling, a foregrip, and a shock pad on an Ares Alpha, how much recoil compensation do you have? No peeking at Arsenal!

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 02:45 PM

...you have to calculate it once.
Yeah, you need tables to calculate RC - many other mechanics require those, too; there's nothing wrong with that.
Like, if you're a rogue, what's your bab and fort save on level 11? No peeking at PHB!

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 02:45 PM

Semi-Auto, Short Burst, Long Burst, or Full Auto?

Posted by: suoq Aug 19 2011, 02:48 PM

Include planning for first and second simple actions or next IP if a complex action.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 02:48 PM

+8 and (base) +3. I have literally not played 3e D&D in nearly a year.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 02:50 PM

If it differs, answer for each of them. Same for first or second shot.

Posted by: Infornography Aug 19 2011, 02:51 PM

how about a long burst with a 4-step ammo-mix of apds, flechette, exex and tracer?
with damage code, please ...

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 02:54 PM

I have over a dozen gamers that rotate in/out from my table-top game over the course of the year, all of whom have been with us at least 2 years. In that time, I have made several observations about the matrix rules:
1) They are consistent, except for a one rule about hidden nodes between the base book and Unwired. The problem in understanding is that sometimes there are multiple paths to the same goal.
2) The rules are complex. System administrators (in real life) who sit at the table have an easy time with the rules. People who have a good, but incomplete, knowledge of how computer networks, security and hacking work in real life are challenged.
3) The game tends to work best when the GM presents the matrix as per his understanding of the rules.

So how would I make SR5 matrix rules better? I would present a basic, moderate & advanced set of rules with a simple cross matrix of which rules are allowed at each level. The GM then assigns the matrix rating for his/her table and away you go. Of course, the rules would have to build from the previous level so that as a GM/player increases their understanding they can simply step up to the next level of rules at their table. To be honest, having played 7+ Shadowrun games at each of the last 3 Gen Cons (+having 3 other home game Shadowrun GMs) I already find that most GM's do this without realizing. The only thing that is missing is structured rules for multiple tiers of complexity.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 19 2011, 02:54 PM

BAB for a level 11 rogue is +8. Fort is +3. That's easy, it's a pretty clear pattern (medium bab = 3/4 level, round down, bad save = 1/3 level round down). Recoil stacking is a little more complicated because of what does and doesn't stack, but like you mention you only need to worry about it once, then you're done. You write it down on your sheet and it's over with. Or if you use a spreadsheet/chargen it's even easier since those rules are typically programmed in.


edit: And I got ninjad on the answer. That's what I get for typing more than the minimum.

Posted by: Blade Aug 19 2011, 02:54 PM

I'm pretty sure Jason and a few select writers have already started thinking about 5th ed. Nothing formal yet, but starting to see who could work on it, what should be changed, how it can be done and so on.

I have to admit that I'm a little worried about that idea. I'm sure Jason and the freelancers are doing their best, I know they love the game, but from what I've read so far they lack three things:
- Direction: ask 3 freelancers how they see the game and you've got 4 different answers. That's not really bad, especially since Shadowrun is open to a lot of playstyles, but from time to time, especially when writing a new edition, you've got to set the tone you want. And when you've got someone who wants to go back to 80s cyberpunk and someone who wants to get rid of it all, you're bound to have problems and risk ending up with a flavorless game with no identity.
- Vision: The latest books are bland and boring. They're not exactly bad, but they bring nothing new. I was used to getting a lot of adventures idea, to thinking "whoa that's cool", "I should have had that idea!" and things like that when I read a new SR book. With the latest books I've done that A LOT less. And that's not because I expected it. I was expecting good things from Attitude and was greatly disappointed. The Shadowrun universe is becoming more and more "2011 with elves and cyberware" and so far the new metaplots all seem pretty uninteresting (or not very well dealt with).
- Background and rule grasp: I know there are long time players and dedicated fans in the freelancer pool, but there are still quite a few mistakes in either rules or existing background in the latest books, and the new background and rules are rarely very good, which doesn't bode well for a new edition.

I hope it'll get better or I'm afraid I'll have to become one of those bitter and disgruntled fans who say that their edition is the best and that Shadowrun ceased to be good after.

Posted by: suoq Aug 19 2011, 03:01 PM

Oddly enough, I'm going in a different direction. My hope is that the Germans write SR5 and someone translates that into English.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 19 2011, 03:08 PM

Well, core books are by far the best selling RPG books, and generating liquid assets seems to be high on CGL's priority list since last march...on the other hand, producing a usable core book is far more complicated than just expansion products, so maybe they believe that it would go over their heads.
Predicting a company's actions is hard enough under normal circumstances, and we are talking about the company which just de-erratead Arsenal

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 19 2011, 03:09 PM

The Probability of that happening are rather slim, because, over here, SR4 has been around less time and over there . .

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 19 2011, 03:42 PM

I like this idea.. maybe it could also be applied to differentiate routine and important hacking; using the simple system for routine hacking, and the complex system for hacking when it's a major plot point.



What I'd like to see is a more streamlined equipment system. I want some sort of hold on the amount of detail and customization; for example, keeping track of the camera mods you put on the camera you modded into a vehicle - it just goes too many layers deep.

Basically, I want fully-specified characters to fit on only 1-2 pages instead of needing a small booklet per character.

Posted by: Eugene Aug 19 2011, 03:42 PM

I hope 4th stays around for a long while yet. I've got a lot of time, energy, and shelf space devoted to it. Our group likes it. Do we sometimes change / ignore things we don't like? Sure - but we just do that and move on.

A lot of the 4th edition hate, I think, is all mixed up with emotions and factions vis-a-vis AncientHistory, Frank, and Loren's Great Mistake™. A new edition isn't going to help that. Some fans aren't happy with current metaplot (RWARR trees!). A new edition isn't going to help that, either.

That said, I personally wouldn't mind a rewritten Unwired or a Shadowrun Rules Compendium which gives alternate rules and rules "updates" allowing the system to be tweaked without a complete restart.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 19 2011, 03:43 PM

I can add another one off the top of my head: Agents can either access multiple nodes or not, depending on which book you read.

But all in all, I think the matrix rules are more lacking at the basic description of "how does it look like and what am I doing there?"
- What does the matrix look like if I "step out" of a node? Is there are "grid" as described in Neuromancer between the nodes?
- Where is my icon while I'm trying to hack a node? In the neighboring node which routes the signal through, in my home node, or already in some kind of lobby for the target node? Can others see me trying to break into the node, or just the target node?
- What does a stealth program actually do, does it prevent others from seeing that I am logged into the node, or does it just give the impression that my icon belongs there?
- Can nodes run programs besides Analyze? How about exploit for example?
- If I'm jumped into a vehicle, what do I see of the matrix, and how does my icon look like in the matrix?
...

In short, what the matrix needs IMO is a consistent technical description of how it is supposed to work, in-universe. Only then should these actions be populated with rules and such.

Posted by: Mayhem_2006 Aug 19 2011, 04:13 PM

Could easily do it - D20 Modern has the monster archetypes, D20 Future has the sci-fi stuff, and the fluff is the fluff...

Posted by: tete Aug 19 2011, 04:41 PM

/tangent on

Have you read DMG 2? I dont have it infront of me but they actually praise the MMO mechanical aspects of D&D 4e in it. I've played MMOs since Ultima Online and currently play Rift. I've also played and ran D&D 4e. The way powers work is clearly based off video games (especially things like marking) and MMOs more specifically in how players can get combos off of each other. Skills also work very similarly to Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, where the DCs are based on your level. This is not a BAD thing but it is the way the rules work.



See Everquest Shadow Knight... you can mark an opponent who then takes ability damage when not attacking the shadow knight, it can still attack the mage but it takes necrotic damage IIRC for doing so.

It really boils down to the description of a fair number of powers can be taken directly from several video games.

/tangent off

I think 5e should come out 2013 but... that may be a bit early and I think it depends entirely on how well supplements sell.



I dont think thats true, other than using real world terms for the first time the mechanics are 1e all over again minus the system map, which the map is still implied just not detailed. Its not like actual computer security other than the terms. The problem (much like astral space) is getting the hacker involved without making it involved. I think you do two things, make hacking the best choice for the hacker in combat situations (not as good as the Street Samurai with the shotgun but the hacker should not be pulling a pistol) and secondly no opposed rolls, set threshold and alert stages based on the attempts made. You also have to dump matrix combat because its a solo game and you just cant get around that. Likewise Astral combat needs to go away.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 19 2011, 04:54 PM

You can't mix ammo types in a clip, as per the rules in Core.


Yet you remember which class gets which powers progression.
If that is possible to remember, remembering which RC mods stack and the RC they provide can be remembered also.


This seems to be the case with me, I more or less grasped matrix rules on the first reading, and never had any serious problems with them. Now, magic...


Uh, absolute majority of those is answered in one way (and book) or another...

Posted by: Sengir Aug 19 2011, 05:27 PM

Not "or another", "and another"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 05:44 PM

But they are still answered...

Posted by: suoq Aug 19 2011, 07:45 PM

The more I read this, the less sense this makes to me.

Assuming I'm actually a competent programmer and system admin, and therefore your are free to be as technical as you want, could you explain to me how real life experience helps one understand Shadowrun's hacking rules? To me they appear to emulate "Live Free and Die Hard", not reality.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 19 2011, 07:57 PM

I think one of the root causes of the Matrix rules' suckiness is that first they wanted an abstract rule system, but then they started adding more technical thingies in, and now the result is a sort of hybrid mes which is neither high- nor low-level abstract/technical. As in, it's not clear and simple, but it also doesn't get "realism" right either.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 08:23 PM

My point was a generalization based upon my experience: The more technical the gamer is in real life, the better grasp they tend to have on the hacking rules.
Not saying there aren't exceptions, nor that this is some hard fast rule, only my observations.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 08:26 PM

Actually, I would state that overall, the philosophy is right on track. There are a few cases where creative liberties have been taken like encryption, but given 60 years difference in computing power.. who knows?

Posted by: squee_nabob Aug 19 2011, 08:48 PM

In my experiences, the more technical the gamer is in real life, the more they realize the Matrix rules are a Lovecraftian Horror that eats at your sanity. Man cannot comprehend the Matrix rules. This must mean I fit into the “people who have good, but incomplete, knowledge …” category, which I agree with.

If you know how the matrix rules work (from 2 years of gaming at least), and especially in a consistent fashion, please help me understand them. I play a TM now, and function on a hacked together system of “good enough” houserules. I want to know how the rules work RAW.

If you can provide with two examples, I think I can get a sense of how the matrix works (If you want to provide a whole guide that would be even better).

1) A hacker hacking a node from the concept of “I want to hack a node today” (note, the node is encrypted, data bombed, and hidden for maximal rule usage), Also there is IC on the node with all relevant programs and the hacker needs to get paydata.txt to win.

2) An example of your choice, which explains a common matrix action that (in your opinion) people are frequently confused about.

Thank You!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 19 2011, 08:57 PM

I have had that very same observation.

Posted by: tete Aug 19 2011, 09:11 PM

The only advantage a technical person has is that they know what Exploit and Sniffer mean without having to look them up, where as in previous editions more generic terms were used like attack (though sleaze was there to!)

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 09:16 PM

YMMV. As we said, our observations have been different.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 09:23 PM

Also, Redjack, can you explain how Swap works, exactly? Thanks.

Here's a much more likely explanation: the majority of people who have clear, complete, and up-to-date understandings of how computer systems and hacking work IRL are of above-average intelligence and are good at figuring out poorly-explained things. Thus they are more likely to be able to grasp whatever set of matrix rules your group uses faster.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 09:39 PM

By Swap, do you mean "ALTER/SWAP ICON (SYSTEM)"Sr4a pg228?

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 19 2011, 09:42 PM

I hope so, the only other swap I can think of is NSFW.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 10:09 PM

So, if you imagine the matrix as a sculptured, virtual environment, then everything you see is either fluff or a representation of something. ALTER/SWAP ICON action allows you to change details about your persona (the representation of you), your programs, files etc.

In example: I enter a sculptured node. The node itself is that of an medieval inn. A barkeep stands behind the bar taking orders while a maiden walks around cleaning tables. Two men sit talking near at a table near the entrance. The wall behind the bar is lined with wine bottles. In order to fit into the node's sculpture, I might want to appear as a knight of old, using ALTER/SWAP ICON on my persona. My shining armor is fluff, simply a part of my personal. I ALTER/SWAP ICON my attack program to the representation of a sword and on my armor program to appear as my shield. (conversely, both of them could just be part of my persona. Matrix Perception will be required to determine the difference).

Example #2: I enter a node that looks like the receptionist station at an office. I have hacked the node and have administrative rights. There is a sign in book where everyone signs in before being allowed on. Matrix perception tells me that the sign in book is part of the node security. With my admin access, I ALTER/SWAP ICON the book to look like a file folder, move it aside, and use my edit program to whip up a program to catch all logons and record them before passing them on to the actual security program.

These are just two off the top of my head.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 19 2011, 10:47 PM

And if you're in a sculpted node that's based on a Bunraku Parlor, you're beating programs to death with a purple dildo the size of a troll's forearm.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 19 2011, 10:57 PM

I mean the echo, Swap, sorry.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 19 2011, 11:18 PM

One of the few errata'd items:

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 12:01 AM

What I'm getting at is that the errata leaves it extremely unclear - you can look up the debates about it, if you want. I probably should have been more clear about this instead of trying to beg the question. Here are several different ways of reading it:

1) Swap reduces the modifier for sustaining an existing complex form by one, but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form. That is, if you thread up CF A, and then maintain it while threading up CF B, you take only a -1 on the roll to thread up CF B, not a -2. If you then do something that is not threading or using the CFs, you take a -4.

2) Swap reduces the penalty for sustaining a complex form by 1 for all actions.

A) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 per CF, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -2-2 to -1-1.

B) Swap reduces whatever penalty it applies to by 1 total, so if 2 CFs are sustained, it reduces the penalty from -4 to -3.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 20 2011, 12:04 AM

Part of the problem with the Matrix, complicates it, is that they on one hand want to be technical and accurate, but on the other hand make it fun and adventurous and dangerous and moving at game speeds. Real hacking just isn't that. Its hours and days of trial and error and coding, and not particularly risky compared to a car chase or firefight, and certainly not as entertaining to play at. "For this run, I'll spend the next week at a keyboard, setting up a botnet to DDOS SK, then vandalize their public nodes with naughty pictures of Lofwyr and some sheep." Good times. Long and tedious, even if the end results are amusing, but if thats what hackers did all the time, they'd have NO players at all. So the various writers spice hackers up. A lot. Great, now they're much more suitable to be PCs, but any sense of realism, or even 'making sense' has gone out the window. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Another thing is that all the other roles we've got so many role models to draw upon, picture ourselves as, to really get into character and enjoy the adventure. Samurai replaying The Expendables or Jackie Chan movies. Riggers drawing on The Transporter, Bullit, or The Dukes Of Hazzard (TV yes, movie no, CAS riggers FTW). Faces pulling out stuff they saw on Burn Notice. But hackers get, what, Hackers? Johnny Mnemonic? Or go the realism route and play as Bill Gates. Tailored armored turtleneck sweaters? Woohoo.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 20 2011, 12:06 AM

I happen to be a computer science student, and I can understand the rules. But I don't think they're good rules. I could go for an extensive list of things I think are wrong, but that would just be a very long rant.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 20 2011, 12:18 AM

The quote does not list any restrictions like "but only for the purposes of the specific action of Threading a new complex form"

The quote says "a Complex Form" not "all Complex Forms"

This matches the rule as written.

Posted by: CrowOfPyke Aug 20 2011, 12:22 AM

I'd like to see 5th Edition Shadowrun in a few years, sure. There are still major flaws in the system that have been there since 1st edition that I'd like to see fixed. What flaws? I will answer with my opinions:

-Magic is still way overpowered. If you aren't a magic user user you cannot resist spells without some "funkiness" to help you. This is a huge flaw in the magic system.
-Anyone can be a hacker, your Logic attribute score doesn't matter. Anyone with a good commlink and $$$ to buy rating=6 programs can be a hacker. Seems kinda... lame.
-Riggers are non-interactive and rarely, if ever, truly threatened. "I stay so far away that I cannot be attacked... or traced... or ever harmed really. My character is uber but I never face danger." LAME.
-Troll. Max strength and body. Bioware out wazzu. Vindicator Assault Cannon. Does tons and tons of damage, and literally rolls a KFC bucket of dice to resist damage making it nigh invulnerable. Possible in 1st edition, still possible now. Cheeseburger. And fries. With gravy.

I guess I want Shadowrun to become a more balanced game systematically. And yes, these are my opinions, and opinions only. Still a great game for roleplaying and having stupid amounts of fun with!!


I will add this: Do NOT ever make Shadowrun a D20 based game. It is fine D6 based game.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 20 2011, 12:30 AM

From my experience I can only agree, although it's certainly not because the way the matrix works is so similar to real-life networking.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 12:34 AM

I think you're automatically parsing it the way you already "know" it works. The argument for 1 is:

You thread a complex form, then you sustain it. You are not "threading it" after it has already been made; you are just sustaining an already-threaded form. If it means 2, it would say "reduces the sustaining modifier for maintaining threaded complex forms by 1." What it DOES say is "reduces the sustaining modifier when threading a complex form." As in, "when threading a complex form" is the situation when the sustaining modifier is reduced.

If it said "reduces the sustaining modifier by 1 when shooting a gun" or "when using Hacking on the Fly" or "when making Perception checks" it would be clear what it meant.

For A vs. B I direct you to the countless threads arguing about that. It isn't clear at all, otherwise people wouldn't have differing opinions about it!

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 20 2011, 12:53 AM

Personally, I think that rigger-players could easily get emotionally invested in their drones, to the point where they care nearly as much about damage to their drones as a sammie does about damage to the sammie. Once you start modding drones, they become really expensive to replace. And there's biofeedback of course.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 20 2011, 01:41 AM

This is Dumpshock and even for shit that is obvious, people will argue about it.
You asked. I answered. Take it or leave it. Null sheen to me either way, Chummer.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 20 2011, 01:52 AM

Now I have a burning urge to create a hacker with a day job as a porn star, who themes all his (her?) program icons as sex toys.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 02:26 AM

*Stands Heroically* My work here is done.

*Walks off into the sunset, wearing chaps with no pants*

Posted by: sunnyside Aug 20 2011, 03:03 AM

Thanks for the info. At least there aren't any rumors about anything imminent.

I'll remember that quip



Where did you get that idea? They want to capture some of the haxxor flavor, but technical and accurate are not words I've heard used to descirbe the system before. They threw those out for fun, and, as this is an RPG, I endorse that.



Oh lordy. Use the search function to findyourself some good cyberpunk fiction (heck some of the SR novels).

Hmmm sounds like you're looking for movies. Lemmi see, I suggest watching

Swordfish
Tron (hey sculpting)
mmmayybe the Matrix
Cowboy Bebop (an anime I endorse. Actually very very Shadowrunish)
Ghost in the Shell Seriously, watch this now. And the TV spin offs.





My issue with the matrix is that you really can get lost in the weeds if you get a couple rules lawyers together. And as you add rules it starts taking longer. My game uses the core rulebook rules only with a little spackle to hold them together, relatively straightforward design in the systems I put together, and GM glares if the players start thinking about getting fancier. I don't know if I'd say that's the best way, but it does result in hacking taking very little game time, so I think that's quite worth it.

While I think the matrix is the area most improved over 3rd ed, it's also the area I'd like to see worked on the most.



Between how common RF blocking stuff and spiders are I've never found this to be a problem. Too often a bunker rigger would find themselves cut off from the action.



Really? Where was the anti magic bioware? I seem to have missed it. One thing I quite like about SR is that, because of the glass cannon nature of players if they get hit with the wrong sort of thing, things sort of balance out without having to be in any way balanced the way other RPGs have to work to be.



I fully concur. There are different ways to sling it. But it creates a different atmosphere and way in which the players interact with the world when you're operating with bell curves instead of flat odds.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 03:14 AM

Maybe we can use WEGs D6 system for 5^th?

Posted by: nylanfs Aug 20 2011, 03:15 AM

What are you smoking and can I have some?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 03:24 AM

Puff-puff-pass, seen?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 20 2011, 04:35 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing a new edition. 4e has some decent core concepts, but it is like a 1st edition in how many ways it screwed up. The thing is I doubt the things I see as issues would be addressed so I don't really care if no new edition comes. I am surprised one wasn't planned for the awakening, but hey I guess they didn't want to enter the 6th world in style.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 04:49 AM

Can you imagine the character creation for the early 6th World?

"Roll to see if you get VITAS? You do? You're dead. Start again."

Posted by: Critias Aug 20 2011, 04:59 AM

1) It really just depends on what you count as "fully specified."

2) Some of that's just the nature of gamers. I've seen characters in many systems, set in many eras, that take page after page of gear with 'em everywhere they go, just like I've seen some that get by with four or five pieces of gear and call it a day. It's a tendency that's only exacerbated in modern day gaming, or post-modern (where gear is smaller, lighter, and/or you can have vehicles to carry even more gear).

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 05:22 AM

One of the PCs in my group (Star Wars, not Shadowrun) had a binder for his "Character Sheet", due to the amount of... Everything. Backstory, contacts, equipment, ships, the works.

He fought in everything from a Speedo and a Ankle-Holstered Unpowered Knife (Not including explosives and detonators) all the way up to full Power Armor and the latest in Blaster Technology with Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. He also helped set up firebases with just the stock of weapons that was in the "Weapon's Locker" (Called "The Matrix Room" after the movie came out). It was a larger than average ship, and a variant that was made for the rest of the group was used as troop shuttles/base-units for firebases as well.

My character? Heavy pistol with an elongated barrel for better range and a vibroblade, and a Tac-Vest with armour incorporated into it. Anything else I needed I took off the enemy. This was before I got into writing, so I kept things on the down-low.

If going into Shadowrun, I have one character who has an RV equipped with the latest in 19th/early 20th century military rifles, and an almost two century old elephant rifle (And that's his completely legal civilian ride!). Or another character whose sheets are more full of what his vehicles have than weaponry carried.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 20 2011, 09:29 AM

Most of your points show a lack of understanding of the game system.

1) Magic is powerful, but so is guns, cyberware, and the matrix. There are numerous tools for mundanes to protect themselves from magic, and anyone who seriously needs magic defense will have a magician to provide it. Lets repeat the mantra "The less a GM knows about the magic system, the more powerful it is, the more a GM knows about the magic system, the less powerful it is"

2) Anyone can be a hacker wannabe who uses mooks to do their job. Software and Hardware are both essential skills to handle some of the tasks a good hacker will go up against, and those are logic based. Also those skills get pretty expensive in BP/Karma, not to mention all the qualities you're going to buy to go from a good to a great hacker. Not everyone can be a hacker.

3) a) Biofeedback, b)EVERYTHING can be traced, and c) when you go get found in your van in full VR, you're toast. If you think it's boring don't play one.

4) Please please please don't use the word literally unless you are trying to say something intended to be factually true, and how does having a max body and max strength make a gun too powerful? Trolls are tough, and few things are more scary than a troll adept wielding a pair of weapon foci katana, but they pay for that strength and body, and they get taken down by a stunbolt just as easy as anyone else. Also you know, shaodwrunners. When assault cannons are brought into a situation, SWAT and corporate HRT is usually not that far behind. A holdout pistol filled with narcojet can be just as effective.

Anywho, I think the matrix system works, but it's not presented in a fashion that makes using it easy to learn, the info is kinda all over the place. Also I find that people who know a lot about computers and networking have more trouble with the matrix system, because the matrix 2.0 has many key differences from the old TCP/IP module the internet is based on.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 20 2011, 09:32 AM

Personally, I enjoy picking equipment for my characters (and that's why I always read equipment chapters of the books right after the basic rules, too). So yeah, my runners are likely to have mods upon mods upon upgrades for their enhancements, but that's only cause I enjoy it; could easily have gone without, and done so when statting the opposition as a GM...

Posted by: Grinchy McScrooge Aug 20 2011, 04:14 PM

The main difference I'd like to see in a new edition is for the writers to stop trying to make the current timeline emulate current real-life trends. Stop trying to force Facebook into the setting (social-networking in A Fistful Of Credsticks). Or trying to make current 2011 pop stars into 2072 verbs (Lady Gaga in Attitude *shudder*). This whole wireless-networking crap is bad enough. Making the Matrix wireless killed most of the cyberpunk feel of Shadowrun IMHO.

Consistent rules would be awesome too. Or at least some errata support from the company.

Amen!



http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/saints-row-3/showimg-6/
(Warning: NSFW)

Posted by: Sengir Aug 20 2011, 05:36 PM

Several conflicting answers are not really an answer

And some things have to the best of my knowledge never been answered...for example, where does my icon hang out while hacking a node?


Back to the original topic, does the announcement of a new series of SOTA books (see the GenCon flyer) count as a sign 4th ed is ending?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 05:49 PM

If you are Hacking a Node (and have yet to enter it), you are in the Matrix, probably "adjacent" to the Node you are Hacking. If you are in a System and are moving from node to node, you are in whatever node you last enterd, while you attempt to hack the next node (assuming they need to be hacked). Some Systems are a single node, after all.



Nope... Just an indication that here will be some SOTA books being published using the Edition 4A Ruleset.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 20 2011, 06:15 PM

And now show me where in the rules this is spelled out...the way I read it, being outside a node is not even considered in the RAW, you always are considered to be in a node somewhere


Shh, don't disturb my belief in "cum hoc, ergo propter hoc"

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 06:33 PM

Except that would invalidate everything that has ever been published about the Matrix, regardless of the Edition. The Matrix Exists, and the Nodes are points of interest within that greater Matrix. It would be a far poorer world to ignore the fluff descriptions of the Matrix.

Think of it this way... There are a collection of Personal, Local, District, City, Regional, National, Worldwide, and Orbital series of Ever Expanding "Master Nodes" so to speak. Each has its own cluster of Nodes within it, but eash is a part of the next level ousided of it. That is how the Matrix has always been fluffed. Even now.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 10:01 PM

Your skills still matter, however. (Just not your Logic.)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 20 2011, 10:24 PM

I have to say I thought that was lame. Why have a universal system of skill+attribute+mods if you make exceptions?

Still for 5e if they are working on it I hope it is 1/2 attribute round down+skill(no cap)+mods like mods don't stack. TN4.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 20 2011, 11:01 PM

That's why we have Skillwires.
With the absence of combat pools, the need for an expert system has been lessened.
But it's still there and allows a measured use of edge, the one drawback.
But if you can get your pool up in the 20's before needing edge, then it does not matter as much.
Yes, basically, anybody with the money can be a hacker too. If he is ready to make compromises.
In SR3, the only thing that stopped this from happening were the high monetary costs, and, to a lesser extent, the essence cost.
Well, that and Skillwires sucking something fierce in SR3. And Matrix-Deckers sending other Runners on Beer/Pizza-Runs . .

Posted by: Fatum Aug 20 2011, 11:12 PM

...anybody with the money can also be a sammy (with the same skillwires and maybe an implant or two). Or a rigger. Or anything non-Awakened, really. So this is a non-issue.

Posted by: sunnyside Aug 21 2011, 12:53 AM

Yeah, I like having the option there.

When it came out, I remember we basically stopped playing Shadowrun for a while and had a Session or so of Rigger 3. Which was actually fun.

But I think it works better if things are simpler and the choices few in the core rules.

So maybe a core rulebook character should fit on a page or two, and as the months pile on they expand.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 21 2011, 02:39 AM

The choices should be few? Can't disagree more. The choices should be many, and each one should give you a brand new shiny ability (or a possibility, or just something cool and flashy)!

Come to think of it, could you please point out a classless system that'd fit your expectations?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 21 2011, 03:08 AM

Feng Shui?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 21 2011, 07:39 AM

Savage Worlds might fit as well.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 21 2011, 01:37 PM

Feng Shui is AWESOME, and extremely versatile.

I have Run Feng Shui: Star Wars, and prepped a Feng Shui: Battletech Game. Even considered a Feng Shui: Shadowrun for those players that want excessive Pink Mohawk. Have yet to do so, though.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 22 2011, 02:42 PM

What you are describing is the SR 1-3 matrix, with those pictures of light balls floating above a grid. In SR 4, there's nothing about this, neither crunch nor fluff.


Again, please show me which SR 4 book presents this onion model, or any other model of the matrix. And not with any backreferences to SR 1-3, imagine you are a total PnP noob who never heard anything about this matrix thing previously

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 03:08 PM

World fluff does not disappear just because Mechanics change...

As for no experience; I would direct you to see Tron, Johnny Mnemonic, and the Matrix, so that you would be on the same page. It is Not all that hard to train up a Noob...

Posted by: Seerow Aug 22 2011, 03:14 PM

Actually given that the new Wireless Matrix is described as a completely different beast from what was there before, it's a aspect of world fluff that very well could have changed.


As someone who only played 3e before this and completely avoided the matrix in that edition, I had no idea that the matrix supposedly worked as you described. If it did, it should have been mentioned -somewhere- in the books where it's described. They certainly wasted enough pages on useless fluff they could have slipped that in somewhere.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 03:25 PM

Perhaps...

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 22 2011, 04:38 PM

@Tymeus: I think you're wrong, with regards to SR4. Every Node is related to a single device, there are no nodes-within-nodes. There really isn't anything in the "space" between them; each one is a little pocket universe that connects directly to others. A persona is always inside a node.

So, to the question of "where are you when you're trying to hack into a node?": you're in another node, perhaps your home node.

---

Anyway, another thing I'd like to see changed in SR5 would be the difference between skill modifiers, bonus dice, dice pool modifiers and what-have-you. Some things get added twice if you split dice pools, others don't - it's awkward. There should be more uniformity in how those things behave.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 04:48 PM

Perhaps... It is a perfect analogy for AR Hacking, to be sure. For VR hacking, the Matrix is its own "world", Much like Astral Space is. I do not see that just "Dissipating" in the transition from 3rd to 4th Editions. And I still use it. After all, it is only Fluff, and has absolutrely no mechanical effect whatsoever.

Posted by: tete Aug 22 2011, 05:13 PM

I think he was talking about how in older editions magic was really powerful but if you had a street sam with a willpower of 6 due to height (TN 6) and breadth (rolling willpower vs TN [force]) you were much more likely to be fine against mind control spells. In 4e by RAW having a higher willpower isnt the bonus it used to be.



The fluff is pretty much the same in all editions though VR2.0 and 3rd ed tried to avoid talking about system maps and moved from lawnmower man style look to the matrix somewhat.

Posted by: suoq Aug 22 2011, 05:15 PM

I must not be understanding the question to "where are you when you're trying to hack into a node?".

You are, by my understanding, there because as you're doing it, you can proceed to get the ether beaten out of you. Behind you, like a digital umbilical cord, lies your traceable connection back to your point of origin. While there, you may not have control over your appearance to those around you yet. To those there actually watching you may first be as defined as a 404 page or a loading screen until you have enough rights to tell them you exist and what you look like.

I've love a rule to back up the above statement, but I doubt I'll find one. It's pure invented fluff anyway.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 05:32 PM

Indeed... Your Reality Filter defines Your Fluff. In our games, the "Reality Filter" of the Matrix at large is the same as it has always been. In VR, you see the vast matrix via Icons and connections. A "grid" if you will, from which you can Zoom In/Zoom Out on by selecting another node in the chain.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 22 2011, 06:36 PM

Just as long as you don't have an Agent running that goes http://youtu.be/BVn1oQL9sWg

Posted by: Sengir Aug 22 2011, 06:39 PM

Of course it does, because the mechanics are for a completely new matrix. LTG addresses, remote control networks, color codes, and gray IC are gone to name just a few, otaku don't fade any longer and AR is everywhere, those are not just changes in the rules but also in fluff.

And by the same token, the fluff questions I posed are directly related to game mechanics -- if my persona is standing right next to the node I'm hacking, that means a police patrol might spot me just like during a RL burglary.


Well, that's a nice houserule, but not at all supported by rules or described in the fluff of SR4(A). And if understanding the current rules requires reading past books or watching movies, that means something is seriously wrong with them. A core rulebook is supposed to give players all the info they need to play.

Also, a reality filter can't bend the rules. Your filter might tell you that RC networks are still separate from the matrix, but that won't stop a hacker from taking over your drones.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 22 2011, 06:48 PM

Are you kidding? That guy is my comlink's IC!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 08:03 PM

The Matrix, as a descriptive, Exists as it always has... use it or don't.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 22 2011, 08:16 PM

Then for the third time, please tell me where to find that descriptive in the 4(A) rulebooks.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 22 2011, 08:52 PM

Oh man, don't tell me he's Psychotropic IC and overwrites the person's personality to be like that!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 22 2011, 09:43 PM

As you can see, when in the Matrix, you are not always in a Specific Node. As such, there MUST be other places in the Matrix OTHER THAN NODES, as indicated above. Landscapes are not Nodes, but do contain the Nodes (Portals to such systems). Again. Pretty self-explanatory that the matrix is not just Nodes.

Does this help you at all?

Posted by: Sengir Aug 22 2011, 10:25 PM

The MCT host (or node in current terminology) is a complete medieval village, that sound pretty much like a landscape to me. And Deus had a complete forest in his node


The way I interpret the current rules, the idea is to always be in a node. From there you can either "beam" into another node which allows open access (if you know the access ID or have link/portal), or move to another node for which the current one acts as a chokepoint. See also the description of portals and matrix movement in Unwired.

Problem is, my interpretation also is just puzzled together from various sources in different books. There is no description saying "there are RTGs, LTGs, and PLTGs, several LTGs connect to one RTG and hosts and PLTGs connect to an LTG like this".
Just to be clear, I don't think the SR3 matrix is better, IMO the relaunch was long overdue and for the better. It's just that the old system was significantly better documented.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 22 2011, 10:34 PM

Of course it was . . you try and document a wireless mesh network with mobile nodes, i dare you!
Also, first generation technicians do the whole build-up. then do documentation on it.
Next generation generally doesn't learn from documentation, but from 1st generation technicians.
And then they do less, if any, documentation at all. http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/00000/7000/100/107166/107166.strip.print.gif

Posted by: Kingboy Aug 23 2011, 07:30 AM

Agent, no. Real life alert tone for text messages, yes.

Along with a spliced together .wav of various turret "hello" phrases as the main ringtone...

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 02:32 PM

Just to add my two cents to the bank, I base my view off a couple of nuggets in the book. In particular the bit about routers on SR4A 218. First thing to note is that there's no way I can see this working real-world, but this is a game so...

Every matrix-capable device has a separately coded router. (quit boggling, that's fluff as written.) Each router has, basically, two options: Accept or Forward. There is no Reject on this sub-device. Accept is access to the device/node to which it is attached. Forward is its contribution to the ad-hoc mesh network.

I picture the routers providing the terrain - the raw ground, the sidewalk, the street, whatever - on which the sculptures of the nodes are built. While getting from my commlink to yours I may step on the ground of a thousand others, but virtually I merely give us a shared door through which we speak, pass messages and files, and so forth. In some cases I may actually enter another node. I drag a "silver cord" (non SR standard myth of astral walking) to my home node while doing so, and this cord leaves a mark everywhere it passes.

Matrix-space being what it is, in some cases the supporting ground may be contained within as well as outside some nodes. (Klein would have been delighted, and boggled.) Those with the wherewithal to grok the multidimensional aspect take advantage of it, slipping in and out of other nodes to their benefit (obscuring trails, making searches more effective, etc.) Most who work with the matrix instead treat it as a standard 3d space where doors come close on call, and the ground itself is ignored.

Again, that's the interpretation I get based on fluff as written. I could be wrong.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 23 2011, 02:44 PM

Now I want those as my ringtones.

...

I'd need a cellphone first.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Aug 23 2011, 02:57 PM

Total Recoil Comp:5 (2 internal-IIRC, 1 for each of sling, foregrip and shockpad---also not sure sling and foregrip can contribute together).

Full 10 round burst Recoil modifier is: -5
Long burst is a -1
All others are absorbed.

Posted by: Redjack Aug 23 2011, 04:01 PM

Almost. There was quite a discussion about this a while back.

As per the definition above that all active mode nodes are routers, yes. They provide both the VR and AR. An interesting point that comlinks not in active mode are not getting most of the AR around them.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 04:18 PM

Missed that. I'll have to go looking. (May have been before I logged on, of course.)


Nice point, but with the caveat from SR4A 218 that

hmmm. Makes me think that if a player has set their system to hidden, they should be getting a multitude of penalties as a reflection of:

After all, the things are supposed to be providing support all the time.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 04:30 PM

Except that those bonuses you talk about above are for the actor. Ideally, you should be using a Tacnet instead, which does not rely upon the Mode that you are in.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 04:39 PM

Well, I'd say that tacnet isn't much use in the non-combat phases. You know, face time and investigation time and all that sort of thing that goes into role (vs roll) play?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 04:41 PM

And how is having an AR Schematic going to change that? Will it make the Face more convincing? I highly doubt that it will.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 05:02 PM

I'll bet that one of the things the AR provides is a Farley File, and I guarantee that makes the Face more convincing. More accurately, and reflected in my recommendation of a negative if it isn't on, is that the ARs provide everyone a farley file and not using one makes a person more likely to commit minor gaffes.

In case you don't know, farley files are named for the device created by James Farley for FDR. Basically, every person with whom FDR dealt, who he ever met, got the critical details entered in a file. Before FDR met the person, Farley would put the file sheet in front of FDR for a quick perusal. Thus he'd know of the visitor's wife, maybe that the daughter had entered college. Not every detail, just the things a good friend would know and use in casual conversation.

If everyone uses farley files, and the face uses them better, then the face who does NOT use one is handicapping himself as much as a street sam who doesn't use tacnet.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 23 2011, 05:02 PM

The downside to hidden mode is not getting those AR bonuses. You don't get a penalty for hidden mode, you just don't get benefits.

Posted by: Tanegar Aug 23 2011, 05:04 PM

For what it's worth, if I were interviewing a squad of criminal mercenaries (or mercenary criminals, however you want to look at runners) and they inexplicably knew the names of my wife and kids and details of our lives, I'd be more tempted to have them all shot on general principles than to hire them. There really is such a thing as too much information.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 05:16 PM

And a good face is going to know how much to say and what not to say. I used it as an example of the sort of thing your AR should be able to provide with not much tweaking that was a specific aid to the face. I'll point out that if the only place your face plays is the interview he's losing out on a lot of opportunities.

Posted by: Mardrax Aug 23 2011, 05:19 PM

This is where the face's skill of using them better comes in.

And of course, communicating with a Johnson, you never let on to knowing who he is. This is the kind of thing used by social infiltrators. You have a hard time getting around pretending like you belong, if you don't know who actually belongs.

Edit: ninja'ed for typing too much!

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 05:19 PM

Possible. I wager, however, that most GMs never remember to give the bonuses. Not least because they haven't thought through the assistance an always-on infoweb CAN provide even before specialized emotisoft or tacsoft or other *soft gets added. The easiest way i can think of to apply it is just create a general -1 in all cases where the mode is set to hidden UNLESS a specific circumstance (like tacsoft) overrides it.

Posted by: suoq Aug 23 2011, 05:20 PM

When I interviewed people for employment we would occasionally interview people who spent way too much time researching us on the internet. They talked very knowledgeably about things they had absolutely no clue about, feeding us back our own corporate PR and B.S. The result was predictable by everyone except the person being interviewed.

Any information age is also a misinformation age.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 05:29 PM

I suspect you also interviewed people who did way too little time researching you as well.

Once more, the farley file was an example of what should be a standard AR schematic/file that would assist a face. The claim was that no such thing existed. Much as any other file, it can be misused. Its presence isn't a guarantee of success. Its absence, however, means the face has to work harder to do his job just as a mechanic without plans for the modification or the team who has to work with jammed commlinks.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 23 2011, 05:45 PM

That's actually not correct, which I think proves my point. The complete answer:

This is a trick question. You can't answer it without knowing whether it has a sling accessory or a sling mod, same for foregrip accessory vs. mod, because they do different things. I should note that your answer is never right, though.

Case 1: both are mods
Foregrip and Sling stack to provide a total RC of 2, Shock Pad is 1, Alpha is 2. But wait - Foregrip and Sling stack, but Sling and Shock pad don't! The answer is 4 recoil compensation provided for any type of fire.

Case 2: Foregrip is a mod, Sling is an accessory. In this case the answer is 4, because sling accessories don't provide recoil compensation (so 1 foregrip, 1 shock pad, 2 alpha). Type of fire doesn't matter this time either.

Case 3: Foregrip is an accessory, Sling is a mod. Foregrip Accessories only add their 1 RC on full bursts. So on a full burst, the answer is 4 (as in case 1). But on any other type of fire, the answer is 3, because slings and shockpads don't stack (so 1 from either one of them), and the foregrip doesn't apply. Final answer: 3 for anything but full bursts, 4 for full bursts

Case 4: both are accessories. Now the sling doesn't provide RC and the foregrip provides 1 RC on full bursts. So the answer is 4 on full bursts (foregrip + shock pad + alpha 2), 3 otherwise (shock pad + alpha 2.

Now that's what I call clear and simple!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 05:55 PM

Which is irrelevant if you have acces to that information in your Memory. You DO NOT NEED AR to get the benefits of your Farley File. Claiming that it is required is actually pretty funny...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 05:59 PM

Except for that Always-On Info Web to be useful, you have to actually pause to access it and use it. Not so useful in the midst of negotiations. It CAN be handy, no doubt, but it is not speed of thought access, nor is it indexed for your convenience. And very few people are going to be set up so that it is useful.

Why are you penalizing people for not using something? It is a BONUS, NOT A PENALTY.

The Mind Boggles...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 06:05 PM

And once you have that information on the sheet, IT IS clear and simple. You will know what your RC is; and then you go from there. Don't you put your RC mods on your character sheet? Everyopne I have ever played with does. It has never been a problem at any table I have polayed at.

Posted by: suoq Aug 23 2011, 06:06 PM

Nope. That may happen in places, but I've never actually experienced it.


I'm sorry, but I don't see that. I don't see that in fluff. I don't see that in crunch. And I don't see it following logically UNLESS you have someone else doing real time research as you're talking and feeding you the data and that data feed has to happen though public routing.

What is the source for the data you you claim is helping in AR and why does it need to be displayed in AR and why is the commlink unable to display it to you in AR if the commlink is hidden? I'm sure this is something you've carefully thought out, but since I can't see your thought process here, I'm not coming to the same conclusion as you.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 06:07 PM

No pause is needed to use emotisoft. No pause is needed to use tacsoft. Yes, to read a full file a pause might be needed. But if all you're needing is cues it becomes easy to have no-pause requirements. Especially as (boggle, but it's fluff as written) the holo can be displayed between you and another and the other can't see it.

Why am I penalizing for not using something. Because according to fluff it's constant use material. For just about everybody the matrix is always on, always feeding info, both useful and spam.

If you choose to remove a tool that everyone else uses, you are at a handicap. It's that simple.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 06:13 PM

I so disagree that I cannot even articulate it properly. It is not as simple as you claim it to be. If it were, everyone would agree with you, which is obviously not the case.

And AR is not Constant Use MATERIAL. It is constant bombardment of information. Who says that it is useful information? Likely 99% of what you are bombarded with is actually pretty useless. Filtering all that information is likely an issue. As for Emotisofts, they are likely ran by Agents that update the USEFUL information that they provide. Updating a Tacnet takes an action. So if no one is aver updating the tacnet, how is anyone ever getting any information out of it?

I really think that you need to re-evaluate your ideas on AR.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 23 2011, 06:26 PM

That's what I'm wondering about, too. Going passive/hidden means you commlink will ignore unsolicited connections (an therefore AROs) from the outside, it does not mean that you lose the ability to perceive AR.

As for getting a penalty when not using something potentially beneficial, there is no penalty for not using a smartlink. You simply don't get the bonus.

Posted by: suoq Aug 23 2011, 06:28 PM

I think it just hit me. He's attempting to add the Snow Crash Gargoyle Bonus (Hiro buys a motorcycle) without the Snow Crash Gargoyle Penalty (Ewww. You're a freaking gargoyle"). At least that's my best guess right now. It may be he pictures everyone as a Snow Crash Gargoyle.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 06:29 PM

Well, I'm basing my position on little things like:


and


and


and


In short, I'm looking at fluff as written. That you don't like it is fine - you run your game your way. No problem.

But the world is described as full-time info-feed. That 90% is junk does not stop the underlying fact, nor the fluff as written.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 06:35 PM

Huh. You know, I hadn't considered it that way, but is indeed some of what I'm saying. And I'm saying it because I've read the fluff.

Since my prior experience with SR was about 20 years ago I don't have the immersion of the matrix of 1/2/3 influencing what I'm seeing. Instead I'm basing solely on SR4 fluff as written.

Everyone has AR on all the time. They get some stuff automatically - how much and how useful depends on their skill and experience and in some cases situations. That's per the fluff as written.

If it's not SR as the old-timers play it, well, I'm not (in SR) an old-timer.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 23 2011, 06:38 PM

Hey Kirk, hey TJ: we got it. You disagree and won't come to even a minute agreement, so let it go, ok?

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 06:44 PM

http://xkcd.com/386/

Posted by: Sengir Aug 23 2011, 06:49 PM

Well, IIRC Hiro got the information needed to pull a fast one on the seller because he was actively looking for it, not because he was accepting every uninvited spam message

And that scenario is totally normal in my games, when going to a meeting or fast-talking into a corp facility, one of the guys present has a simrig (or just cybereyes + lip-reading software) and the hacker tags along virtually, digging out useful leverage or just telling the head negotiator to haggle harder.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 23 2011, 06:56 PM

We had that way too often in the last months.

Posted by: suoq Aug 23 2011, 07:10 PM

Agreed after my editing.This is where we seem to disagree. What people get, as far as I can see in the fluff, is what other people want them to get. The receiver is "passive" in that they're not actively "asking" for the information. If their commlink is active, nearby nodes can browse their commlink and decide what to send them. From a logical standpoint, it makes sense for upscale blocks to limit this AR spam to "tasteful".

What you seem to be describing is some form of automated data search and browse without an agent and the results of that search being displayed in AR. I'm not seeing that in the fluff. It would be cool, and I can see giving a bonus (or personally, extra info to be used in RP) to someone who has an agent tasked to do just that.

---------

Grinder: If this is making you upset, you have my apologies. I'm trying to come to an understanding because I think there's a middle ground I want to find and can't find on my own.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 23 2011, 07:18 PM

The problem, as with so many other things in Shadowrun, is that the rules on AR bonuses are really poorly thought out and described. It's basically "While you're in AR get between +3 dice pool and -3 dice pool to whatever you're doing, at GMs discretion". That's not verbatim, but pretty much sums up the rules for that particular modifier. So players always automatically want the best modifier, while ignoring the fact that the GM can apply the penalties at will as well.


Personally, I'd make it so you do a browse+datasearch test to find something relevant to the test you are doing (such as the AR schematic for a vehicle in one of the examples), and what you find gives a +1 dicepool modifier to the test per 2 hits. Penalties for high traffic areas and static would still be GM discretion, because that depends more on the matrix topology of an area than something the player can control. Alternatively you could use the optional rule from Unwired that gives a system+response test, with a +1 dice pool modifier for every hit, but that can allow for some pretty big bonuses on a lucky roll.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 07:32 PM

I think the most relevant fluff demonstrating what I perceive is example #1, SR4A 218. Sketchy Alex gets some stuff on request, some stuff is autopulled by her system because it's relevant to her circumstances and situation, and some unwanted stuff with which she has to deal. It's the middle one that's the automated search and display example here.

Consider also the example of the repair needed on AR 10. You get a couple of pop-up notices: repair is needed, please authorize repairman and payment.

Now, I think what set everyone off was my suggestion of a general -1 mod if the node is set to hidden. To be fair that might be a bit of overkill. On the other hand I still think there are going to be a lot of unnoticed but ubiquitous feeds that, if absent, hamper performance.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 07:39 PM

I have no issues with the Fluff, just your interpretation of it.

None of your examples are instant gratification on 100 different channels. Case in point: to preview the music, you need to actually preview the music. Full time info feed does not lead to utility, nor does it lead to INSTANT useability.

All Passive/Hidden modes do is allow you to take what you want, and ignore the rest. You can still have AR access in Passive/Hidden Modes, you are just not being bombarded with the things that you choose to ignore.

Very different from having access to everything all the time, Which is patently not the case, as you STILL have to filter whatever it is you are receiving for it to be of any use.

As for this:


The autopulled data, in the example above, has to be performed by something. Your system does not have the capabilities for that, so it must, by needs, be an Agent. And an agent has to interact (it needs to actually make rolls), has to have parameters to follow, and has to know exactly what you want (requiring YOU to tell it). None of this is automatic in any way.

No worries though...

Posted by: Bigity Aug 23 2011, 08:06 PM

I don't see anything about any -3 due to not having AR up. There is a possible bonus to be had, but I don't see anything in that section about a penalty.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 08:13 PM

But she didn't call up whether there would be a concert. She was browsing music and got a popup saying "hey, this artist is doing a concert tonight."

Still, your post clarified where the perception error is. I'm not saying 100 different channels of solid information. I'm saying smart-queue info. It doesn't blindly add info it knows will be relevant to you. It sends you stuff it "thinks" might be relevant based on your previous actions and current circumstances.

I walk into a crowded bar, and my friends Joe and Sally with whom I usually drink are in there. I get an ARO smartbox highlighting their location. Mark and Jack, a pair I know but with whom I don't usually drink, are also in the bar. My "people you know located nearby" ARO pops up a button I can open if I want which will identify them. Note it's an interaction. It doesn't pop a highlight on everybody, just those I cued it to show. It does pop a "more info" button, though, without my requesting it.

(edited to add) In addition, it also sends me the bar menu and price list, the specials based on whatever I ordered last time, some advertiser spam that convinced it I wanted to know because I once drank /this/ on a dare... part of working with the commlink is training the heuristics.

It won't show me everything I need. It'll show me stuff I don't need. However, if I have it I have the option. If I don't, the options that can give me some assistance are gone. I can still find Joe and Sally, and might run into (or avoid if that's my preference) Mark and Jack. It's just a bit harder.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 23 2011, 08:19 PM

Not -3 for not having AR up, -1 to -3 for having AR up in something like a spam zone (see page 220 SR4A). There's also distraction penalties ranging from -1 to -3 for doing something in the matrix, or a hacker cause cause distractions equivalent to a spam zone (page 225 SR4A).

Posted by: Bigity Aug 23 2011, 08:25 PM

Ah, my fault for misreading it then, thanks.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 23 2011, 08:30 PM

No problem, I think someone else WAS using the argument that disconnecting from AR causes penalties because of peoples' reliance on it, so it's not hard to confuse arguments. It wasn't however -my- argument.




Edit: To get somewhat back on the topic of rules inconsistencies with 4th edition, or RAW just being funny: Try and figure out if by RAW there's anyway to reduce a databomb's damage after it goes off (ie find a citation that you are able to use armor vs it), or if a hacker using Black Hammer jams a connection the same way Black IC allegedly does.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Aug 23 2011, 08:48 PM

Another way to look at the AR feeds, is to go to Facebook, or hell, even CNN, and look for something that isn't the story of the day. It's gonna take you a moment to find it, assuming it's on the first page. Being in active mode accepting all connections is like that. You get hit with everything. Limiting yourself to passive or hidden will filter all that innocuous stuff. To me, it'd be a huge benefit to *not* have all that stuff filtering in. Have an agent set to auto-pull information based on key words during your interaction if you need to, but get rid of all the other crap. Because really, when you're on a run to infiltrate a delta black facility, you really don't need to know that two celebrities just broke up and that the news is reporting an accident 4 cities away. You need what is relevant to your situation right in front of you. Anything more and you've got an AR distraction, not an AR assistance issue.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 08:54 PM

Sure.... If you are Active Mode. I have no problem with this at all, and makes a ton of sense. In passive/hidden Mode, however, you will still get any of the ARO's from your friends, becuase they are likely authorized, as is the menu and drink list from the club you are at (you knew you were going there, and those are authorized. However, since you are not "Active" any Specials or "Tailored Adds" are likely not allowed through). Not allowing the "Smart Queue" information into your link is not a penalty. Smart Queue Information requires interaction to function; it is NOT automatic.

What you see as "Assistance" many others see as "Annoyances" (one of the reasons I still do not have a Smart Phone or Cell Phone). And even so, it does not penalize you to ignore the "Assistance or Annoyances" that are prevalent in AR. The only penalty you should have is NOT receiving the BONUS. That is not a Drawback, it is a Feature. If you want more info, all you need do is search for it (or have your Agent Search for it). No need to be Active for that at all (unless you are in a place that requires "Active" mode).

As far as the "training your Heuristics" argument goes, that is what Passive Mode is for. It will filter the garbage, and still alert you to connection attempts to see if you want to accept them. Hidden just ignores everything not on your list, and does not alert you to the typical connection attempts asssociated with being in a crowded environment. You will still be alerted if your Comlink is being hacked (asssuming your protocols are set that way and the hardware/software catches them coming in).

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 09:10 PM

Allow me to summarize.

I said AR and its constant input could be a help, so much so that either GMs should be giving the +1 most of the time OR, given that they're not, a general -1 should exist when AR isn't used (with the digressive question as to whether hidden shuts down much of the AR use.)

I was told that there was no way AR could be helpful, with a specific example being to a face - that no possible schematic existed.

I gave a real world example of the farleyfile. There was much babble of how the farleyfile could be misused.

I was then told that there was no fluff where information was presented unrequested. I showed otherwise. Now it's "but that's only in active, and besides it's a distraction."

I am boggled that when you ask for a point, I raise the example, and you say basically "well that doesn't count."

The point Grinder made is still cogent. We disagree. We are going to disagree. At this point we're just repeating the disagreement from different directions.

I do think the general -1 is probably excessive. On the other hand I still think most GMs don't give +1 for AR enough - at least, based on what I've seen and read so far. I can't - WON'T - fix it. I raise it for a consideration, but think all salient points have been made.

Posted by: Sengir Aug 23 2011, 09:31 PM

Because that's what it says in the rules, uninvited stuff only gets on your 'link when you are running active. And while some people sure like the "this might also be of interest to you" feature, there is not much a runner can gain from it. Many people also used http://personal-computer-tutor.com/assistedsuicide.htm, but I wouldn't give a hacker a penalty for not using an unnerving assistant

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 23 2011, 09:36 PM

I don't really like your idea, but for a subtly different reason than the others, it seems.

The game rules basically just describe interactions between people, without any tech being involved. They could be on a Siberian tundra, the Barrens, at the downtown mall or Renraku HQ; they're the baseline game rules and are the same everywhere. They don't measure your performance at skills compared to other people, they measure you according to an absolute standard.

AR benefits/drawbacks and any other tech get added afterwards. They aren't an inherent, inborn part of characters. The game rules and characters can all function just fine in a no-tech environment.

Of course, a Face who doesn't use AR/Farley file will be at a disadvantage, but not a penalty. It's just that all the other faces are getting a bonus.



You score points with me for referring to that

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 09:56 PM

I will also provide my counterpoints and then we can agree to diagree then...



And I think that this is the crux of our disagreement. Lack of AR does not a Penalty create. Chooseing to not use Active Mode and AR should opnly result in you not getting the BONUS, not generate a penalty.



Not sure about anyone else, But I said that AR was not as helpful as you imply. As for the Face and the Schematic. You still have yet to answer how having a drawing helps a Face Talk. I do agree that the AR bonus could be useful, and it would be situational.



Again, I never said it could be misused. I said it is not useful "In the Moment." It is a file like that is constantly updated and referenced, and to be useful, must be perused. You will not just get a flash of insight on accessing the file, you must interact with it.



But, IT IS only in active mode. In Passive Mode, you can shunt it off or ignore it, and in Hidden Mode, it is nonexistant. So Active Mode is the only place that it truyly matters, and it is often more of a distraction than it is a help. Ther fact of Viral Advertising and rampant spam makes Active Mode less than immediately useful most of the time. Does it have its benefits? Sure, and I did not dispute that, but it is not as useful as you seem to be implying.



Note that I did not say it did not count, I said it was less useful than you implied.



This is the crux of the disagreement, though. Any penalty to non-use of AR is excessive, since it is meant to be a Bonus, and not a penalty. THIS was the main issue I was having with your ideas. Not that it could grant a bonus (which it is intended for), but that it could somehow give a penalty for NOT using it.

*Shrug* Let's agree to disagree here. I did enjoy the discourse though. Thanks.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 09:58 PM

noting only to say I read your rebuttal. Thank you as well.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 23 2011, 09:59 PM

Ask Empathy Software. That's basically exactly what it does.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 23 2011, 10:08 PM

Sort of. It is a realtime assistant to interactions only if you have the gear to run it on (Easily obtained, if a little expensive), and only for Social Tests. Most applications of the Sensor Software run best with an Agent processing the feeds and using teamwork to give bonuses. Not many people run them this way in my experience here on the forums, though.

Posted by: suoq Aug 23 2011, 10:51 PM

I think as I've read the last couple pages, I've realize that there is no good central ground. I see parts of what Kirk is saying but the core difference (to me anyway) is that his AR is actively seeking and displaying data (as if he had a very smart agent) where my AR is actively filtering out data transmitted to my commlink from agents on other nodes that are reading my commlink (as described under how an active commlink works) or from other nodes wide broadcasting data (such as AR menus).

His AR is much more useful than mine because he reads the fluff as if the AR is initiated by his commlink for his benefit where I read the fluff as AR initiated by other nodes for the benefit of the owners of those nodes.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 23 2011, 11:11 PM

Exactly.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 23 2011, 11:28 PM

At least.

But that was a mod post that asked you politeley to stop the exchange of arguments - and you simply ignored it. Great stuff. If you want to continue your personal "discussion" with TJ, use PMs and don't clutter this thread with your pointless postings any more (this goes for TJ too). And I don't want to read the next post saying "blabla I'm sorry blabla".

Posted by: CanRay Aug 24 2011, 02:11 AM

4th Edition does not appear to be planned for the heap any time soon. So a few years of stuff is ahead of us, at least. Let's deal with the system as best we can as we make a pretty, pretty universe out of a dystopia.

And not piss off the mods.