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Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 01:25 AM

This is an opinion poll, but not the kind that needs to use the poll options feature.

Yes, I KNOW this question is incredibly situational, both considering in-game situational factors (a melee character who is 'very powerful' in his element is not so over 100 meters; a mage in a background count, a hacker in a deadzone, a sniper engaged in room clearing, and so on) and metagame social factors (everyone has different ideas of what the power level of a starting character should be), but as a very very very rough balance benchmark, what do you consider to be 'adequately powerful'.

To use one extremely narrow and specific example as an attempt to get a generally agreed upon benchmark...

Can the majority of us agree that an attack made at up to 50 meters at 17 dice with a base DV of 12P and a base AP of -2 (Ballistic) is "sufficiently powerful" to be considered "powerful", i.e. "A Powerful Attack"? By powerful, I mean enough of a threat to be potentially fatal to any starting character, spectacularly fatal to some, and powerful enough to almost certainly deal non-trivial damage even to a character with 50-100 Karma under their belt. (We can leave obvious outliers like 'binky' out of it for now, I think.)

If we can find a starting point, we can extrapolate and expand and broaden from there. But yes, I am starting very, very, very small here.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 20 2011, 01:26 AM

You've clearly never played a summoning aspected mystic adept focused on melee with an ally spirit that he channels and uses a force 10 increase movement power to run hundreds of meters per turn.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 01:40 AM

Clearly.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 20 2011, 03:59 AM

I go by the fluff of a situation, where the runners stand in the hierarchy of the universe. If runners consider a gang nothing to be afraid of, thats good. If they could care less about angering the yakuza, and consider a SWAT team to be managable, they're pretty tough but still managable. When they laugh in the faces of Red Samurai and Tir Paladins, and consider them no challenge whatsoever, they're powerful.

And if they aren't afraid of Lofwyr, you as the GM aren't doing your job.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 04:07 AM

The British Dragon you were dealing with loses his stiff upper lip, goes, "Slot this for a game of soldiers.", and flies off real fast.

Whatever is behind you, is powerful.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Aug 20 2011, 04:23 AM

As far as I am concerned, anything with a total dice pool greater than 6 is above the fluff average and powerful. I am of the opinion runners should be able to have a run so successful once in a while no one even knows they were there (for a sufficient length of time as to be untraceable) other than their employer, which may have been them. And that if a runner ever fights a fair fight, they screwed up somehow.

There was a scale that did up fluff ratings based on total dice pool that IIRC Snow_Fox put together that I really liked that would be a good basis for deciding what is "powerful".

So with that in mind, I would be a pretty lenient GM until an NPC(s) who plays on the same ruthless level comes along, then its on the NPC(s) to screw up the ambush or leave traces but those types of NPCs should be as rare to possibly be never encountered directly just like the shadowrunners. This isn't D&D and I like that.

Posted by: Socinus Aug 20 2011, 05:20 AM

Honestly, I dont think there really is a "powerful" in this game.

Yes you can munchkin your way into insanely high dice pools, but even a starting character with the right equipment and smarts can still kill you easily. For every move there is a counter move and for every game-breaking secret, there is something that can stop that dead in it's tracks. Even the most honed and refined trick can be countered. To be good, you need to have LOTS of tricks and keep changing them before the environment can adapt to you.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 05:26 AM

*Clutches my head* Never, ever drinking with a Russian Troll again. That "Vodka" he had was mighty powerful!

Posted by: Irion Aug 20 2011, 07:55 AM

Thats were mostly the possession mage is mentioned.
Even a invoked force 5 spirit may do the trick.
Well, the only thing cutting it down would have been the restriction of the physical attributes in the FAQ, but since FAQ is not RAW...


Depends. Of course you may thorshot it. But by countering I understand have something less powerfull to beat it.
So lets but it like that:Possession is very hard to counter...

Posted by: Socinus Aug 20 2011, 08:31 AM

There is a counter for everything in the game and if you've got a little bit of fox in you, a starting character can take down an extremely powerful built-up character.



Even without thorshotting something there are myriad ways to take someone down. It all comes down to how clever can you be, that's part of why this is my absolute favorite game.

Load the trunk of a car with bullets and put a stick of dynamite in it. Set a building on fire. Hit someone with a truck. Blast the supports of a parking garage and drop the structure on them. Brew together as many drugs and poisons as you can get and put it in a sticky grenade. Plant contraband on them or in their place of residence and inform the police. Hack an aerial drone and crash it on top of them. Set up as many shotguns as you can get and stick them together on the same trigger, point it all down a hallway with the trigger rigged to the door and wait for them to come in. Find a nasty paracritter and sic it on them. Get the attention of a hacker or HuPoly group focused on them. Frame them for an attack on a local crime syndicate. Get them on a plane and crash the plane or depressurize the plane in-flight. Get them on a boat and sink it in the middle of the ocean or sail it into pirate waters. Hack or otherwise sabotage their ride such that the next sharp turn they make, something critical fails. Plant a bomb under their car. Put together a truck bomb and set it off when they walk past. Stir up the local infected and set them on your target. Slip a waitress some extra cash to add an extra additive to their drink. If they use a grenade launcher, hack or otherwise jam the barrel such that the grenade will detonate when fired.

That's off the top of my head. Give me more time and specific circumstances and I can show you some real fun. All it takes is a little ingenuity.

Give me a character concept, any character concept, and a set of circumstances and I guarantee you I can kill that character without a Thor shot and a couple simple steps that almost any starting character could do.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 20 2011, 08:51 AM

I disagree with that.

For a human, Attribute 3-4 + Skill 2-3 is normal for a young professional. Add metatype (+1 or so) and specialization (+2), and some sort of equipment-based bonus like smartlink or a basic implant, for +2 to +4. Often you'll have a Shop or Kit, which is another +2 to +4.

Dice pools are built from a lot of things, and Attribute+Skill is roughly half of it, so saying "6 is normal" is only true for the Attribute+Skill part.

Posted by: Critias Aug 20 2011, 09:19 AM

Or, at least, you have to have access to lots of tricks. Which is why shadowrunners tend to work in teams, after all. So no one person has to try and cover all the bases.

Posted by: Irion Aug 20 2011, 10:51 AM

@Socinus

Sorry, but there is always the bigger stick. Thats not a counter. What you describe is the bigger stick.
Thats like going: A mage possessed by a force 5 spirit is countered by a mage possessed by a force 7 spirit.


All is very situational. It has nothing to do with counter.

So some example for countering stuff:
The elven dodge ninja stripper:
A guy with a gun shooting a lot of bullets in a wide burst with a lot of recoil compensition.
If it is getting too ugly, you have to use granades.
The guy with armor? Sniper rifle or sporting rifle. Laserweapons are also a possibility.

And all of this would not work an the mage I brought up.
The bullets would have a base DV of 1 or maybe 2. Hardended Armor takes care of that. A burning building? What a DV has a such "fire"? 4 ? The Hardend Armor takes care of that.
Shotguns? I guess the reaction test takes care of that.


But all right lets put it to a test:
You get the avarage human mage 2 in all physical, 5 in drain and 3-4 in the rest of the attributes mage possessed with a force 7 spirit(guardian). Having a counterspelling of 6 (+2 Mentor spirit, +2 spec Combat spells +shielding) with 4 Initiations (shielding, Auramasking advanced, channeling), lets give him magic 6
Thats easy to build with 750 Karma.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 11:06 AM

Possession is not nearly as good as you think it is, and it's by no means the magic bullet in and of itself aside from some very particular hilarious abuses (which this guy isn't doing).

The first and biggest drawback this guy has is that being Possessed is entirely visible and obvious. He's running around with his eyes glowing and a blatant aura of power or something like that, and his eggs are 100% in the channeler basket. Auramasking lets you hide this on the astral plane, but not on the physical plane. This guy is super unsubtle and will draw attention to himself - or he'll have to start a lot of fights by blowing his first action getting possessed and that also hurts.

Aside from that, offense is just a lot better than defense. He's quite capable of one-rounding a good street samurai if he goes first, and a good street samurai is quite capable of one rounding him. A Materialization mage who is willing to be equally unsubtle can ram a Force 7 Spirit of Air down his throat. If you want to go full munchkin, anyone with Astral Hazing can kick his ass.

Posted by: Irion Aug 20 2011, 11:22 AM

You mean the only guy who is more obvious on the Astral than this mage is?


Again: It is not about getting the "I fuck everything character". It is about to enhance a character big way with little investment.


It is like the pixie mage with concealment and the cameleon armor. Yes, you may counter her somehow, but thats quite hard to do.
If I need 100 Karma and a bit of cash to set something up, it is not a counter if you can defeat it with millions of nuyen and hundrets of karma.


Thats not what he is about. The only thing he needed was channeling. Thats maybe 30 Karma.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 11:30 AM

Astral Hazing is obvious on the Astral. This guy is blatantly obvious on the physical plane and that's a harsh drawback.

It's less what you are getting and more what you aren't. 2 in all physical stats leaves you super vulnerable when you aren't possessed, so you lean quite heavily on the possession to fight. But you cannot run around in Super Saiyan mode 24-7 because it is massively unsubtle, so when you get into a fight you weren't expecting, you have problems.

Posted by: Infornography Aug 20 2011, 11:40 AM

In my Shadowrun 4 group, 8 dice were a lot and the biggest dicepool had 12 dice.

Posted by: Irion Aug 20 2011, 11:42 AM

@UmaroVI
Yes, he would be better with 6 in all stats and 20 initiations and magic attribute of 20 and of course a bunch of Deltaware.

So if I go first, I need a simple action to call on one of the spirits I have bound. Those just might be force 4 or 5. Still, my chances to survive this battle go up by several thousand percent.

And thats all for the cost on ONE metamagic talent... That is a good deal. (Yeah, I could fokus a hole build around it. But if you focus a hole build around something it is bound to be good...

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 11:51 AM

A battle strategy that costs you your first action every combat is a hefty drawback. Also, your initiative while not possessed is like 7. And you have 2 body and 2 reaction, so people who go first have a very good chance of blowing you away while you are charging up Super Saiyan Mode.

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 12:51 PM

Sat down and played with the math. Fatal in 2 shots to the generalist if is no edge and no full dodge is used.
If the attacker does not use edge and the defender uses either edge, full dodge, or is wearing more than everyday armor*, then there tends to be some stun damage.
With edge and full dodge by the defender, the attacker is not likely to hit the generalist unless he also uses edge.

*6/4 (pick one)+ 4/1 (ffba half)+ 0/2 (ppp) & 4 body to carry it

Posted by: Irion Aug 20 2011, 12:55 PM

@UmaroVI
Most battles don't go "roll iniative and go".
Mostly you know, that someone is comming. (Well, if you GM is not a fan of teleporting enemies. Which I dislike very much)

So this loosing your first action is kind of a leap...

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 20 2011, 12:58 PM

Some battles you know are coming. Some you don't. A character who is really, really bad in the second type is not, IMO, a good game plan.

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 01:07 PM

I'm slightly surprised by that. Agility and reaction are incredibly cheap BP wise to cyber up. (Muscle Toner 4 is under 11BP as is Wired Reflexes 2 & Reaction Enhancers 2. 21BP buys the whole bundle.) It should not be hard to have an agility of 9, a skill of 4 and a smartlink and get 15 dice. For someone who takes the skill at 6 and specializes, that's 19 dice.

Charisma 5, Influence 4, and then either Pheromones or Kinesics, should give a human face 12 dice. An elf face should be pushing 14 and that's soft-capping. (Yes, my elf face would have both Kinesics AND Pheromones, but that's not the point...)

These examples aren't min-maxing or power gaming. They aren't corner cases. They're old standby staples.

Posted by: Infornography Aug 20 2011, 01:35 PM

A pool of 19 dice after chargen isn't min/maxing or powergaming?
In one of the books (forgot which one) it is suggested to cap pools at 20.

Posted by: Traul Aug 20 2011, 02:35 PM

It's not even trying. There is still room for genetic enhancements, reflex recorders, adept improved ability,... A human sammy can get 19 dice on his main firemarm using the core book only (use Reflex Recorders instead of Muscle Toner 4).

No, it is not.

Suoq's gunbunny example has AGI 9 and skill 6, so this optional rule would let him go up to 30 dice. There is a good reason this is only an optional rule: it was never tested before printing, or they would have seen that its completely fails at its intended goal.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 20 2011, 02:47 PM

You missed the "natural" before attribute. His natural attribute is 5, because he's using toner 4. So that gives you 5+6=11*2=22 maximum dice pool.

Posted by: Traul Aug 20 2011, 02:53 PM

OK, my bad. So that's 22 dice at chargen, 24 once he raises his AGI to 6. Then you can add Exceptional Attribute, Genetic Optimization, Metagenetic Improvement, Aptitude, a better metatype to begin with,... I don't think you can reach 30 dice without some of those anyway. The only builds that are hurt by this cap optional rule are the pornomancer and some pointless Athletics gimmicks.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 20 2011, 03:14 PM

Want to make a Powerful character?

Backstory.

Doesn't matter what the dice pool is if the person has the history and reputation that makes no one ever want to mess with them at all.

...

Or they have a really big P2.0.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 20 2011, 03:16 PM

Picking those up post char gen, you're talking about hundreds of karma, and I'd argue investing in other things is the more sound investment. 19-22 dice is more than enough for most situations. Also all of the qualities you listed go over the cap for positive qualities, you have to drop either exceptional attribute or aptitude. Exceptional Attribute allows you to get 10(15) agility, while Aptitude gets you 1 less die (at a mere 9(13) agi, but 7 skill), saves you the need to get a more expensive bioware, and is a bit cheaper on the bp side of things.

I was just pointing out that the typical out of the box max agi max skill character doesn't get anywhere near 30 dice.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 03:20 PM

And lets not forget that the Possession Spirit STILL has to roll to perform the possession, even against a willing target. It takes time for the possession to take. Or am I wrong on this?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 03:21 PM

I would not consider 10/7 an Everyday level of Armor. But that is just me, I guess. Especially since a Body of 4 is not a given in the first place.

Posted by: Traul Aug 20 2011, 03:57 PM

I agree, but 19-22 dice already seem too much for Infornography. I was just pointing out that one that it is nowhere near the maximum, even with the retarded cap rule.

Posted by: Angelone Aug 20 2011, 04:13 PM

The blood mage from DotA is powerful as is Samerial or however you spell his name from the same series. I haven't gotten ahold of street legends yet so I can't use any of them as an example.

Posted by: Traul Aug 20 2011, 04:23 PM

It goes both ways: reputation also attracts kids who want to make a name for themselves.

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 04:27 PM

For fits and giggles I created a "generic" orc in Chummer. The character is built using 400 BP, no negative qualities (allowing players to add personality and power). I went with cyberware since I felt that was easier for new players than magic and the character isn't particularly optimized. No skills are above a 4. The private commlink would be better as a Battle Buddy Basic (but I wanted to avoid WAR and keep to the core books) and probably has more and better common programs than necessary. Comes with a bike for travel, a tacsoft to insure the team has one and to keep from having to slave to another player. The commlink is well enough protected that the team could probably slave to him without issue.

My goal with this was to create a generic, semi-weak character. He's basically self-sufficient and can be made more competent or specialized by simply buying up various skills. That being said, he's still going to eat any member of an "8-12 dice pool" for breakfast. There's no special tricks here or complexities. Any new player sitting at your table for the first time should be able to run him with no modifications or you can tweak him for a new player with some negative qualities and additional abilities.

http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/generic.htm

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 04:38 PM

Very Nice... Are you using a Program to generate the Sheet? If so, which Porgram?

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 05:41 PM

Chummer has the ability to save as HTML in it's print character sheet function as well as the ability to build new sheet formats using xsl. I thought it was a nicely clever feature, using xsl & html to generate character sheets.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 05:52 PM

Indeed... I like it. I might have to look into Chummer. I generally use a Word Document. But then again, I tend to generate a massive character file as well. My current Hacker (A Cyberlogician) is now running at about 25 pages or so. My mage is at 12. So maybe it is not for me. Will check it out, though. Thanks.

Posted by: Bull Aug 20 2011, 06:19 PM

*facepalm*

This will only end in blood and tears.

You're a masochist, Devon. Really

Bull

Posted by: Glyph Aug 20 2011, 06:19 PM

... which would suggest that you're not really min/maxing or powergaming until you get past 20 (or 2 x your natural Attribute + skill).

Shadowrun is a game with strong transhumanistic themes, where magic and technology can create superhumans. And you play shadowrunners, spys and saboteurs who do dirty, dangerous jobs for a living - these aren't first-level characters, they are pros.

All of these things that create powerful characters are design features. Characters are supposed to be powerful. Generally, there is a point where it starts being counterproductive to min/max, but the examples people gave you are of characters who have plenty of room for other skills and abilities.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 06:36 PM

Devon? *looks around*
Are you talking to Me?

Posted by: Critias Aug 20 2011, 06:45 PM

Yeah, but so what? If their group was having fun and still got the game world to work that way, it's not like they're hurting anything. There's no "wrong" way to play. If they had a good time with a team of well-rounded generalists slinging 8-10 dice most of the time instead of 16-20, what's the harm in it?

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Aug 20 2011, 06:45 PM

I'm fine with you disagreeing with that. I am just saying that the extra stuff you tossed into that dice pool for whatever that test is, IMHO that means that character is above average then and thus powerful. All you and many others here seem to be hung up on is "But how powerful?" The OP wasn't asking what is the best of the best EVAR, just what is powerful.

I consider above average according to one's setting to be powerful. If your GM is populating your world with NPCs who have AVERAGE (in other [many] words, some NPCs have less, some have more, add them together, divide by the number of NPCs = Average) dice pools of 8, 10, 12, 15, or whatever rather than 6, then you need something higher than that average to be powerful, IMHO. Its all relative, especially with the many different ways people GM, I tend towards having an average of 6, non-augmented human poor schlubs living in a dyspotian setting.

Posted by: Socinus Aug 20 2011, 07:04 PM

It's not necessarily a bigger stick, it's just knowing where to break a particular stick.


A couple of bullets would have a DV of 1 or 2, but and entire trunk full getting set off at the same time? That's a pretty serious explosion with a lot of shrapnel.

Yes armor mods can take care of some fire damage, but they aren't designed to handle a six story tall inferno.

Stick a couple of grenades under the shotguns so if he does make the Reaction test, he'll set the grenades off by moving the apparatus.


Hit him with a GMC Bulldog going full tilt. He'll have to deal with 32 damage.

Or else put together a car bomb and set it off when he walks past. You can put together bombs that do insane amounts of damage relatively easily.

Get a couple of gas and splash grenades together and pack them with K-10, Cyanide, KE IV, and Ringu.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 20 2011, 07:22 PM

A dice pool of 6 for combat is actually above average for your average corporate drone or Barrens dweller. Humanis Policlub goons have dice pools of 3, and presumably this still allows them to beat up on people (although this is also typically a whole gang of them against one or two luckless metahumans).

But the dice pool of the average Joe doesn't really factor in to how comparatively powerful shadowrunners are, because they don't do shadowruns against the average Joe. They fight everything from security grunts, to the much tougher reinforcements that show up loaded for troll, to paracritters, to corporate expediters and underworld enforcers, and the list goes on and on.

Your standard security grunt, the first line of defense whose only purpose is to keep intruders pinned down while reinforcements show up, has a dice pool of 6, except that their smartguns add 2 more dice. So even at the low end, you're looking at 8 dice. This is not average - this is the low end. From there, they keep getting tougher.

Also keep in mind that every three dice is about one hit, on average, and that shadowrunners need to be better than their average opponents to successfully do their jobs. Not only that, but shadowrunners will usually be outnumbered, will often have fatigue or wound penalties, and will usually be fighting on the enemy's home ground.

So while the definition of power may vary from campaign to campaign, I would define it higher than merely above average. The average shadowrunner should be significantly above what everyone else considers average.

Of course, that's the default shadowrunner who does shadowruns. If it is a campaign of punks from the Barrens trying to survive, that might change the equations greatly.

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 07:22 PM

I don't believe I said there was any harm. I said I was surprised. To be at 9 dice is a 4 skill, human softcap stat, nothing else, no cyberware, adept powers, etc. Once you add +4 (a tacnet and a smartlink) you're already at 13 dice, past their table max. I'm not sure I can create a collection of archtypes that can stay in the 8-12 range for their specialty with 400 BP.

I'd be interested in seeing some of these characters, to understand what I'm missing. Are they using 300 BP or a low Karmagen value? Is it a ganger campaign? There's a lot I simply don't know and I'm unable to guess how that campaign works.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 07:30 PM

Are you saying that anything under 20 Dice is not powerful?




To be clear, I am not asking if 17 Dice, 19 Dice, whatever is min/maxing or powergaming. I am asking if it is 'powerful'. I am asking if it is enough for the average character to be worried about it coming at him, enough for the average player to feel confident that they are making a very deadly attack, and so on.



The above (17 Dice, 12P -2 AP) could also be 17 dice with a base damage of 7P -2AP and -5 to Defense, or 14 dice with a base damage of 7P -2AP and -9 to Defense, or 14 Dice with a base damage of 16P -2AP.

What I'm trying to get at is, is that a good attack. Is that the kind of thing a 'good' street samurai with his heavy gear going all out in a situation where subtlety doesn't matter should be rolling?

Or is it 'overkill' or 'munchkined'?

Or is it 'inadequate'?

That's really where I want to start here. This has already become a wide-ranging discussion with lots of fascinating dialectics going on but I really am looking for an answer to this question. 'Is this 'bad enough', like UmaroVI's trog?'

Oh and if other stats have to be brought in let's assume this is a situation where either neither side is using Edge or both are; if both are, then both are using it after the fact for more hits, rather than pre-Edging. (If only because, at my table that is somewhat more common, which I know is a pretty arbitrary reason but it's kind of an arbitrary question to begin with.



This is very true. Would it be alright if I posted my rubric and see if people agree or disagree with it? All of this assumes a starting character built with 400BP or one within 50-100 Karma of starting. The boundaries between tiers are not hard and fast. I've used Shadowrunner examples, not mook examples, for now.

25+ DICE: There are various and sundry exceptions, but at this level I may become concerned that the player of the character with this dice pool is a jerk, or that the character is terrible at everything else.
20-24 DICE: Superlatively and enormously powerful. PCs really should not be rolling this kind of dice pool often. ULTRA POWERFUL.
15-19 DICE: Extremely competent and extremely dangerous. Above average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. POWERFUL.
12-14 DICE: Very, very, very competent. Verging on the superhuman. Average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. CAN'T COMPLAIN.
10-11 DICE: Far above average, which is to say, average for a Shadowrunner in their secondary shtick, or below average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. NOT TOO SHABBY.
6-9 DICE: Average for a Shadowrunner in their 'everything else'. This is the minimum level a runner should be at at anything that might matter. HALF DECENT.
1-5 DICE: Average for a normal person, which is to say bad for a Shadowrunner. BAD.

If you disagree, explain what parts you disagree with and why.

Posted by: whatevs Aug 20 2011, 07:51 PM

I prefer games that have generally have 10 dice being passable at something, 12 dice as being good at something and 14 dice being really good at something.

Mileage varies though. Example: 12 for a Face to Disguise can be more than enough, because it's opposed with perception, and npc's are typically built to have just enough to get by. 12 dice to shoot with a street sam may be only passable because npc's are typically built with a fair amount of dice in dodge and reaction.

The trick is to id the range based on activity to determine 'powerful'.

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 07:56 PM

It's hard to tell. If the generic character (above) was firing a smartlinked LAW rocket instead of an Ingram, he'd be (9 agil, 4 skill, 2 smartlink, 2 tacnet) doing exactly the same as your street sam. The only real cost would be the skill and another BP in nuyen. 15 BP of negative qualities would buy a skill of 3, a specialty, and the gun and ammo (so, slightly better than your street sam).

I'd say it's reasonable for a starting character. Other than the pinkish mohawk look of the LAW rifle on a starting character, I don't see anything special about it. Personally, I prefer subtle, but that's just me. It certainly doesn't seem overpowered (though it's definately not underpowered).

That being said, I'd expect "disproportionate response" against anyone using a LAW rifle in an area where security is contracted out.


------------

This post reminds me of an old Grimjack comic where Gordon is standing in the street with a Bazooka....

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 07:56 PM

Remember that at the point when you are shooting someone and they are dodging at a bare minimum you have cost them an action which is kind of a big deal. Hitting them on top of that just adds insult to injury.




This has been perfectly civil so far. *knockwood*.



It's not an Ingram, actually it's an FN-HAR with EX-EX modded for 6 points of Recoil Compensation. (Yes, Dumpshock, I know that 'assault rifle X' is technically more optimal than an FN-HAR. Shh your pie hole.)

This character by the way has 9 Agi, 5(6) Skill, and 2 Smartlink. If he was connected a Rating 2 Tacnet, he'd be attacking at 19 Dice, but I assumed he was flying solo for this one. None of this matters, of course; it's just an arbitrary benchmark. It is the point at which I personally say, 'if this is not good enough for you, I do not feel like we have been playing the same game all these years'. I'm not saying it is the best, just that I hope that EVERYONE from UmaroVI down to the guy who said that a dicepool of 6 should be average can agree that it is 'good enough'.

Anyway, thank you for your answer. : )

Posted by: suoq Aug 20 2011, 08:06 PM

Given that different roles have different bell curves (It's really easy to be on the top end on a face. It's incredibly difficult to be on the top end as a hacker without piracy), here's my old dice pools.



--------------

Note for above. By "generic character", I meant the one I posted from Chummer, not the one you started the thread with.

Note #2. The guy who can "hold your tools" should be able to add 3 dice (assisting) to the guy who is asking someone to hold his tools, taking him up to 21 dice, same as the top level. Backup (15) + Backup (12) get 19 dice between them.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 20 2011, 08:07 PM

Seems like we're matching up pretty closely, then. (Also, amusing captions. Although I think 'I can hold your tools' for 9 dice is a bit unfair.)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 08:10 PM

I can agree with your benchmarks here. Not too bad. I might change a point here or there, but otherwise, I like it.

Posted by: Bull Aug 20 2011, 08:31 PM

Check Neurosis' .sig.

Posted by: Infornography Aug 20 2011, 08:38 PM

I agree. Personally I'd lower the whole thing by two, but then again we've been playing with 300-350BP ...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 20 2011, 08:47 PM

Yeah, I figured after I posted...
No worries...

Posted by: Angelone Aug 20 2011, 10:35 PM

Powerful is being able to survive DotA and Ghost Cartels.

Posted by: Mäx Aug 20 2011, 11:41 PM

Maybe not but an atypical character with really maxed Agility does get exactly 30 dice(as long as you have 2 team mates for tacnet usage)

Posted by: Seerow Aug 20 2011, 11:56 PM

An atypical character can get as high as 10 unaugmented agility and 6 skill, for up to 32 dice. (if you can go over quality cap post char generation you can get that as high as 34). That was never really the point.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 01:10 AM

Funny you mention that, I'm actually running Ghost Cartels as a low-powered street level campaign; I toned down all of the opposition accordingly, except for the parts where the PCs are supposed to lose/run.

DotA is...really ridiculous. I have been not just surviving but thriving whilst PCing through it, but I think that's because I have a lenient GM, not a powerful PC.



It sure isn't.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 21 2011, 01:40 AM

No, just that it is usually not min-maxed or powergaming, since you can get there with a few logical choices, rather than any convoluted rules-raping.

Power level is very subjective, but overall, your original example would be "bad enough" for most campaigns.

I liked your dice examples. It's good to have something like that as a baseline for people to agree or disagree with. Here are my thoughts on those dice pools:

25+ DICE: Most characters rolling this many dice will be hyper-specialists, who might still be viable builds, but are not likely to be more than functional outside of their main specialty, and more often than not, have made too many sacrifices in other areas to get to this point. There are a few dice pools, such as social skills and gymnastics, can reach this level more easily because they have lots of potential positive modifiers.

20-24 DICE: Specialist level dice pools. Faces who combine several dice pool boosters, street samurai using a chosen ranged weapon with a specialization. Rarer outside of social and combat dice rolls. Mages, close combat specialists and such who reach this level can be compared to the hyperspecialists above. Specialists generally do not suffer nearly as much as hyper-specialists, when it comes to being limited in other areas.

15-19 DICE: Competent and capable for combat and social skills, extremely good for nearly anything else.

12-14 DICE: Still effective for a face (their dice pool to be good at their job starts out lower, even though it can usually go higher, compared to combat skills). Good combat ability for someone's secondary specialty, slightly weak (but still functional) for someone's primary specialty, at least against weaker opposition such as typical security grunts. For dice pools without a lot of dice pool modifiers, this is actually pretty strong.

10-11 DICE: This is usually where you get secondary specialties that can still be called specialties, like the street samurai who can also drive or sneak.

6-9 DICE: Tertiary skills, either that or defaulting in areas that the character has superhuman Attributes in.

1-5 DICE: Not a reliable skill (or default). Generally something that is not part of the character's role as a shadowrunner (etiquette for the troll tank, data search for the shaman, etc.). At the very lowest end, a genuine weakness. At the 3-5 range, it is something the character is at least not completely clueless about. In other words, the troll with Charisma: 2 and the influence skill group at 1 should not try to fast-talk his way past the bouncer, but at least he won't pick his nose during the meet with the Johnson.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 02:09 AM

So generally speaking, it seems like your expectations are 1-4 dice higher than mine, which is fine. That's a totally acceptable standard deviation.

I would say that 12-14 (especially 14) Dice is quite strong for a combat skill, whereas you would call it slightly weak. I guess that's our main point of disagreement.

Posted by: Bull Aug 21 2011, 03:31 AM

Just to throw in my own two ¥... Powerful is relative. I scale my encounters based around the players. And if 5 players at my table want to play characters with 12-14 dice, and one player insists that he needs 22+ dice to be effective, guess who's going to get nerfed down? Fun needs to be had by everyone, not just one player.

Bull

Posted by: CanRay Aug 21 2011, 03:43 AM

*Sniffs* AW MAN! BULL! Light a match!

DAMN That's powerful!

Posted by: Traul Aug 21 2011, 03:52 AM

Nerfing might not even be called for. Unbalanced power levels are not a problem as long as there is no competition between players. If the min-maxer is the hacker and nobody else wants to deal with hacking, you can just leave him be.

Posted by: Bull Aug 21 2011, 04:07 AM

Agreed. though my experiences say that usually characters that need and insist on min-maxing their characters that way, especially if he knows the rest of the players are at a more moderate level of power, is also usually a spotlight and game hog.

If everyones having fun though? Yeah. then it's fine.

Posted by: Irion Aug 21 2011, 05:57 AM

Guys, you can't but one dicepool to any skill.
Take first aid for example:
You get an easy+6 simply due to the medkit. Logic can also be boosted quite easy.
Or you look at the pornomancer beeing able to get up to 40 dices easy.
On the other hand take a skill like diving or survival. Linked to "hard to augment" attributes, no real out of the box boni etc.

Thats a general problem in SR.
The attribute + Skill dice pool is quite small, compared to the dices you may stick into it.
How much dice this can be does not follow any line. (This is why I like the optional rule, that the dice pool is not to exceed (natural attribut+ skill)*2.
It gives you a frame to work with.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 21 2011, 07:13 AM

Exactly. That's why my look at the dice pools differentiated between types of skills - 12 dice for pistols is weaksauce because there are ways that you can boost the Attribute, the skill, and the modifiers. 12 dice for survival, on the other hand, is Crocodile frikkin' Dundee.

Posted by: suoq Aug 21 2011, 02:21 PM

But the obvious does not prevent conversation. We can accept that it's there and still talk as if it's not and understand each other. Metaphors and examples don't have to be perfect, they just have to be understood by people willing to work with metaphors and examples.

Yes, the first aid kit 6 provides an incredibly easy 12 dice + logic. That doesn't change the view of how many dice is "powerful". It just means "powerful" in this one particular area is easy to get. Likewise "powerful" in survival is close to impossible to get UNLESS everyone works together and assists. In a similar vein, the face is cheap dice compared to the hacker but that doesn't change the inherent usefulness of the dice pool. A well built face doesn't need an assist. A hacker who (through piracy or insane amounts of cash) has an equivalent pool probably already has that assist in the form of an agent (mook) with an EW autosoft.

If you ignore the assist rules, then having separate scales may be a necessary idea, but keeping the assist rules in mind, one single table still works for anyone willing to use it.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 21 2011, 03:56 PM

Huh, that's not how I read Medkits at all.



So you have 3 scenarios:

Medkit 6 left unattended: 6 dice (rating)
Medkit 6 used by someone untrained: Logic+6 (You receive the attribute and the device rating in place of skill, you don't get the extra +6 bonus at this point because you are using the medkit to replace skill)
Medkit 6 used by someone trained: Logic+First Aid+ 6 (Here since you are trained, you get your normal check with the device's rating as a bonus)


The only way you're getting logic + 12 is if you have First Aid skill all the way up to 12. The benefit of being able to use the medkit as a skill rather than a dice pool modifier is you don't take the penalty for defaulting.

Posted by: Traul Aug 21 2011, 04:06 PM

The pools are different and the thresholds to reach are also different. Dumb example: you need a higher dice pool in close combat than in firearms because the melee defense is higher. To go back to the First Aid example, 12 dice are easy to reach but 12 dice can hardly be called powerful: half of them only get you to the Threshold 2. 12 dice is already pretty good as a spellcasting pool, however, and not so far from munchkinism.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 21 2011, 04:08 PM

Those Streeline Special bullets are Powerful Weak!

Posted by: Mäx Aug 21 2011, 05:26 PM

12 dice is powerfull if your multicasting 2 spells, for only one spell, not so much.

Posted by: Irion Aug 21 2011, 05:32 PM

Yes, if you do the powerfocus trick, if you have at least 100 Karma or do not use ware and hardmax. etc. etc.
So 12 dices is quite powerfull for spellcasting. (in general)
(Yes, you may get 4 dices more for special spells)

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 05:40 PM

I definitely disagree that 12 dice is a weaksauce attack pool.



Of course, munchkinery is something everyone has a different perspective on too. I'd disagree with you and say that 20 dice is definitely getting up there.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 05:42 PM

Yes, I believe your reading is correct.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 05:42 PM

glitch

Posted by: Angelone Aug 21 2011, 06:24 PM

12 dice is a weak attack pool, you lose attack dice very quickly when modifiers start subtracting from your pool.

Edit - spelling

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 06:28 PM

I might concede that 12 is average, but weak? The Red Samurai have an attack dice pool of 14 and are considered within the game's fluff (which yes, unsurprisingly does matter to me) to be one of the most elite paamilitary units in the world. I don't think that two dice under them (or, in other words, them with their Smartlinks off) should be considered 'weak'.

12 Dice, remember, is equivalent to a character with basically the maximum possible attribute and skill for an ordinary human. So it's not 'powerful', because in SR we have superhumans, but being in essence the peak of unaugmented human performance it just seems insane to call it weak.

Posted by: Angelone Aug 21 2011, 06:47 PM

It's powerful to an unaugmented human yes. However, Shadowrun isn't about unaugmented humans, it's about augmented superhumans who face long odds regularly in order to survive. To Joe Wageslave 12 dice in anything is godly.

Edit- I was actually shocked at how bad Red Samurai were.

Posted by: suoq Aug 21 2011, 07:26 PM

While I prefer your interpretation, the "and" seems perfectly clear
SR4A pg 337

Edit: Unattened = pg 253. My bad.
Going ONLY by pg 253, yes, your interpretation reads correct. I'd love to have someone errata 337 to have an "or" there.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 21 2011, 07:59 PM

Okay, I wasn't aware that it was also described on 337.

I'd say it's a case of conflicting RAW, so the GM gets to choose which to follow. I would however say any solution that doesn't make the first aid skill a complete and total waste of build points is probably the better answer.

Posted by: Xarin Aug 21 2011, 08:07 PM

For extra giggles and fun, turns out that part of the text was added for SR4A. It's not in the descirption of the device in SR4. The part on 253 is the same though. Ahhhh, editing for 'clarity' indeed.

And that being the case, I'd probably stick with the original. Either a bonus, or replace the skill, not both.

Posted by: Neurosis Aug 21 2011, 08:55 PM

Well that would be the sane interpretation as the other interpretation punishes a character for having the skill.

Posted by: PeteThe1 Aug 21 2011, 09:19 PM

But there comes a point where you're so good its silly. Even with augmentations the PCs are still ultimately human. And 12-14 is amazing. You think today, 12-14 dice is Tom Brady throwing a football, Stephen Hawking doing physics, or Bill Clinton being a pornomancer. Yes, successful runners are exceptionally good at what they do, and having the tech lets them be better than should be possible, but at some point you're crossing a fuzzy line where you're a better swordsman than Neil the Ork Barbarian. After all, we're only runners, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, more of us.

Posted by: suoq Aug 21 2011, 09:50 PM

My experience is that at that point, you either have a LOT of Karma or a LOT of glass. If you want to avoid that point, don't ignore the glass.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 21 2011, 10:13 PM

Nah, those "superhumans" of today also get a lot of bonus dice: Experimental Physics Facility (+6 dice) or Thinks Tanks and Spin Doctors (both providing assist dice).

A significant part of any dice pool is going to consist of bonuses from tech, gear, assist and circumstances. 12 is a lot of dice if you ignore all those modifiers, but that's talking laboratory conditions; in the wild, everyone gets modifiers. So focusing on typical Attribute+Skill numbers warps your perspective of what weak and powerful dice pools would be in practice.