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Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 25 2011, 06:11 PM

Its all in the header.

An infiltrator type character can max out his infiltration, cover up in ruthenium, throw on a chameleon suit with full thermal dampening, and a variety of other options to avoid meatside detection. He sacrifices some armor and BPs/Karma, but he can make finding himself damn hard.

He can get aerosols, nanites, jammers, low power lasers, and MAD proof bullets and MAD proof guns, choose to run bioware only, and other options to avoid various sensors.

Erase tags, turn off commlinks, etc. to fall off the matrix. It may cost a lot of that cool functionality, but it can be done.

But for the love of me, how does the infiltrator get past an F1 watcher who perceives him astrally no matter how awesome his skills and kit are?

Mundane only. Magic fighting magic is right out, as is any adeptry.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 25 2011, 06:17 PM

Personally, I allow mundane characters to use infiltration against astral perception, albeit at -6 penalty to reflect not knowing exactly what you are hiding from. I would also allow a specialization to hide from astral observers, but it would merely bring the penalties to -4.

For astrally percieving characters, this is still possible, but the penalties are not included.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 06:18 PM

Lots of previous threads on this. The short answer is 'it's hard', and it should be. Magic is magic.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM

Been recently discussed at least two times. Basically, some people think you can still use infiltration, some don't, and both have arguments to back their point up.
That said, you could try using FAB or Mage Sight Drops from Spy Games...

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 06:19 PM

By RAW, Infiltration works against the astral just as well as it does against the physical. Which it does, solid objects are still opaque on the astral. They're just insubstantial.

Posted by: MJBurrage Aug 25 2011, 06:20 PM

All the toys add nothing, but the Infiltration skill itself should still work. The infiltrator knows to use objects that block auras just like using shadows to block vision.

If the GM says no because the character does not have astral perception, than suggest that a magic knowledge skill would give the character the required background to use their infiltration skill this way.

^{EDIT: need to learn to type faster}

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 25 2011, 06:25 PM

I've said before and I'll say it again. get a cardboard box, make a small hole in it and cover with a transparent plastic so it blocks the light of your aura, but you can still see through the box. TA DA, no astral perceiver will be able to see you.
Solid Snake WAS RIGHT.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 06:29 PM

They'll just see a box. Coat the inside with FAB and they can't even stick their head in to check it out.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 06:30 PM

Look, we've been over it already, let's not start it again. I still think that you can't hide from something you can't see, and thus Infiltration is useless, you still think otherwise. In the end it's still up to the particular GM to decide.

Posted by: Traul Aug 25 2011, 06:36 PM

You mean that when you want to stay unnoticed, you start tossing smoke grenades around?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 06:40 PM

It's not about being able to see. Everyone hides from things they can't see, mundane or not. It's about how easy it is for them to see you (in most cases, very).

Posted by: Makki Aug 25 2011, 06:57 PM

a F1 watcher with its 2 dice for assenssing might get +3 if the order was "look out!"
5 dice is still not much to notice anything significant...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 06:59 PM

Most people are Obvious on the astral, though. It all depends. As it stands, the rules don't cover this interaction terribly well, either being too harsh or too easy (depending on your view).

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 07:02 PM

Sure you can. In fact, most people hide from things they can't see.
It's like saying that just because you've never seen a million dollars, that it doesn't exist.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 07:05 PM

I mean when you try to sneak past someone pretty stupid, but invisible for you, you might as well try to outline him, at least, and hope that said outlining won't cause him to raise alarm.

On the contrary. To sneak past a cam or hide from a patrol, you should be aware about them. Passively hiding from things you can't see is handled with Disguise.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 25 2011, 07:17 PM

While I concur magic is, in fact, magic, 100 years ago the idea that something could sit at 30,000 feet and pick up your heat signature in enough definition to determine what your wearing and record it all would have seemed like magic.

But now that its here, those in the business of not being found by that sort of thing find ways...I can't imagine that for 50-60 years every organization that has a vested interest in being sneaky (especially since some of those tend to have lots of resources) has just said, well screw it, if they put up magic, sneaking is game over.

So, what is this with mage spy drops and FAB?

Is there anything that lets you conceivably move around, being all infiltrator like, and still try to hide from the astral?

And not to stoke the fire, but you can't see a drone at 30,000 feet either, but if you know its likely, you can take steps to hide from it...

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 07:19 PM

Yep, I hide from satellites all day long.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 07:37 PM

And here we go all over again. I thought we could at least agree to disagree.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 25 2011, 08:01 PM

I'll agree to disagree...just want to know what options you have to break the magicrun win button.

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 25 2011, 08:25 PM

Something I never see mentioned in these threads is the most common means of subterfuge. Every magician in the world will extol on you the importance of misdirection. It's a LOT easier to be invisible when no one's looking at you. Have a team mate release a bunch of ferrets on the other side of the compound and the spirits (watchers in particular) will certainly want to check it out.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 08:35 PM

They'll also raise alarm, and the whole secure facility will be prepared for your arrival.

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 25 2011, 08:37 PM

Another thing is that most people seem to treat spirits like automatic gun turrets. I.e. If it's alive, kill it. I'm not sure how reasonable it is for any kind of spirit to know all the astral forms of legitimate personnel by heart, but remember that although their 'vision' is superior you're still dealing with a security guard. Con is still an option, as are various distractions. The spirit could easily be tricked into confronting the Face whilst the rest of the team sneak up to the front door.

But what gets me most is the extent to which people will trick cameras and then whine about how 'omniscient' spirits are. You'll shell out for rhuthenium but magic vs magic is too much to ask? This is a different game, hombre, but the rules are the same - keep up or don't try.

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 08:41 PM

My current character con'd a spirit. I manifested to ask why my sin didn't say I was a registered mage.
"I'm a mage?" *roll con, several net hits*



SR3 had rules for that, to some degree. It was either spirits, or wards. There were only so many people the spirit/ward could identify as being OK.

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 25 2011, 08:48 PM

With me as GM the on-call security mage wouldn't get out of bed/body at the mental image of a bunch of rodents.

My point was rooted in the notion that a spirit cannot feasibly be advised on how to react to every possible occurence. You might say they've been told not to worry about anything smaller than a dwarf, fair enough, but if a human can be tricked or distracted then so can a spirit and the spirit should be easier since they've probably had a lot less security training.

Posted by: Traul Aug 25 2011, 08:53 PM

The ultimate infiltration team: gnomes & pixies

Posted by: Draco18s Aug 25 2011, 08:56 PM

Pixies are already immune to perception of all forms at will.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 25 2011, 08:56 PM

Until they call out, "Hey, listen!"

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 25 2011, 08:57 PM

@ Aero:

The difference is thusly: Anyone can shell out for ruthenium. Granted, the street sam with ten tons of steel in his troll body and the minigun probably won't, but any single character can attempt to defeat sensors.

Anyone can cut their commlink to hidden or even OFF and erase their tags.

Anyone can pay up for a chameleon suit if they don't mind a 6/4 base.

So, meatside, matrix side, and techhead side, anyone can disappear if they really want to, with the right stuff.

We're looking for a way for a non-mage to be able to get past a spirit. With technical or skill advantages mechanically, not just through clever play.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 09:02 PM

Magic is supposed to be not just anyone. If you're removing 'be smart' from the equation, what's left?

Posted by: Erik Baird Aug 25 2011, 09:12 PM

A non-mage gets past a spirit the same way a non-mage gets past anything else: intelligent use of cover and concealment. A soldier maneuvering through a battlefield doesn't know where the enemy's observation posts are, but he uses terrain and obstacles to obscure his movement. He doesn't wander out into the middle of a clearing and wonder why he's getting hit with indirect fire.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 25 2011, 09:12 PM

The would raise the alarm for a bunch of Ferrets or Rats? Not Likely...

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Aug 25 2011, 09:16 PM

Fatum, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it's the fact that the watcher can't be seen by the infiltrator that makes it difficult, it would only be that infiltrator doesn't KNOW where the watcher is. An infiltrator would routinely infiltrate past cameras that he can't see (since if he can see the camera, it can see him) as long as he is aware of where the camera is located.

The same thing applies to Infiltrating against a watcher that the infiltrator doesn't see. He can make a reasonable guess at where a watcher would be, and then infiltrate passed with those assumptions. Since he can't be exactly sure where the watcher is, I think it would be reasonable to apply a penalty similar to shooting at an invisible target.

I think the satellite analogy that Draco18 said is very key. I you are aware that a satellite is somewhere above, you can certainly hide from it as you move, even if you have never actually seen the satellite, with the appropriate penalty for not knowing exactly where it is. The GM can decide, "Well, the infiltrator was wrong, there was no satellite, there was a camera over there." SO if the infiltrator was totally wrong about where he thinks a watcher might be, then the GM should let the roll happen as if the user is normally infiltrating, but ignore the results and the infiltrator is "seen". THe same should happen with a watcher. The player should declare where he thinks observation may be coming from, and make his Infiltration roll with the invisible penalty. If the watcher was somewhere totally different, the GM makes teh call and may get him spotted, just as if he fails the roll.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 25 2011, 09:22 PM

Not to mention the general infamiliarity with Earth in general, as well as having a total of 2 dice for most tests they will try, before modifiers.

Posted by: Traul Aug 25 2011, 09:35 PM

That's not a problem for Assensing, though, thanks to the retarded astral perception modifiers in Street Magic.

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 09:38 PM

It depends. Some of the modifiers are big penalties, some are big bonuses. They make sense: in a crowd, you're hard to spot; in the open, you can't hide at all.

Posted by: Traul Aug 25 2011, 09:52 PM

Where are the big bonuses for physcial perception then? This table is off by some 4 dice because the author took average conditions as the baseline whereas the core rules for physical sight take perfect conditions as the baseline: any less light and you get a darkness penalty, any more and you get a glare penalty. A cluttered astral background is -2 dice when total darkness is -6, FAB cloud is -2 when thermal smoke is -6 to thermographic vision,...

Posted by: Fatum Aug 25 2011, 10:05 PM

Nice, and how exactly do you know where a spirit might be, KeyMasterOfGozer? It's not like anything's limiting it in its movements...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 25 2011, 10:06 PM

There are tons of bonuses for physical perception. It's the easiest pool to raise.

Astral space is different, it has super-light (not glare) as well as darkness. They're just different, how is that a problem?

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 25 2011, 10:07 PM

Amen

Posted by: Fyndhal Aug 25 2011, 10:10 PM

A trick I've never actually pulled in a game, but have wanted to for a long time is to pull a page from Khadaji's handbook.

Step 1: Find secure facility that has something you want.
Step 2: Purposefully set off alarm, retreat.
Step 3: Wait for guards to investigate and find nothing.
Step 4: Let time pass, say 2-3 hours.
Step 5: Repeat steps 2-4. For several days.
Step 6: Walk in, ignore alarms, pick up whatever you are looking for and walk out before the guards, who are SICK OF THIS SHIT even bother to show up.

Granted, it wouldn't work for every type of run or against every kind of facility, but it can be damned effective!

Posted by: suoq Aug 25 2011, 10:19 PM

Release a box full of Nimue's Salamenders.

Personally, I prefer going in detected and expected over going in undetected. But that's just me.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 26 2011, 01:02 AM

I do think part of Infiltration is thinking "If I was director of security, where would I put the watcher spirits?" - and that's why you might have a clue which spots to avoid. Obviously, your dice roll result says something about how well you guessed.

And if not Infiltratrion, then Knowledge: Magical Security Tactics.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 26 2011, 01:51 AM

OK, since I wasn't part of the discussion, can someone enlighten me. Because Street Magic says that meatspace objects are insubstantial but opaque on the astral plane.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 26 2011, 02:08 AM

This is True... What is the actual issue you need enlightenment with?

Posted by: Kirk Aug 26 2011, 02:33 AM

The impression I received was that some think it's impossible to hide from astrals. I wanted to make sure that was false.

I'm not arguing yet that it's possible to stealth past magic security, but I wanted to make sure the baseline limit does exist.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 26 2011, 03:26 AM

Here's another one...physical, non-organic objects block/opaque out auras by fluff. Clothes are, by definition, non-organic unless your perhaps wearing a recent bearskin. So, assuming your not running around naked, shouldn't spirits just see a pile of opaque stuff when you go to ground? And when you move, just a moving opaque object, meta shaped - especially if your latexed/nano'd over mask wise and wearing gloves? At what point does an aura break through? Someone earlier said a cardboard box would do it...if thats true, wouldn't a quarter inch of kevlar do the same? A

And if you go to ground in tall grass, does the aura from the grass cover your aura, and your opaqued out body form?

And not possessing spy games, what is a mage sight drop?

Oh, and if your essence gets lower, wouldn't that theoretically decrease your aura? We know it inherently decreases your interaction with the Astral (mages losing their magic etc.)

Do cyberzombies even show up on Astral as an aura?

Questions, questions for having the low tech beat the "high tech" of shadowrun. Because if you aren't looking to strip the advantages away from the haves and render them pointless, you aren't being a good terrorist/shadowrunner.

Posted by: Fyndhal Aug 26 2011, 03:28 AM

It's unclear. The wording on the FAQ can be interpreted to say "You cannot use Infiltration against astral observers unless you, yourself, are perceiving astrally." However, it also stats that it can be done, but is difficult. Each side of the argument clings to the interpretation they prefer.

My interpretation is that Infiltration vs Astral Observers can work, but the observer gets substantial bonuses to his assensing test, while the Infiltrator loses benefit of his toys.

Posted by: Fatum Aug 26 2011, 03:35 AM

Aha, and then you notice that the best option is having them patrol an area, and with how little the limitations of the physical word apply to the astral, you have absolutely no idea where in the area the spirit might be at any given moment, mph?


Far as I understand, your aura extends past your clothes. Like, a couple of inches from your body.

Yes. Basically, that's the most obvious method of actually hiding from an astral observer.

Eye drops that let mundanes see astral bodies.

Nothing I remember on that affecting the assensing tests against you...

Yes, but it's twisted, unnatural and painful to look at.

Posted by: whatevs Aug 26 2011, 03:36 AM

Misdirection has to be the answer to the op's question. Spirits, especially watchers, could be manipulated fairly easily. But what about paying a mage to have a (possibly bound) spirit use the concealment critter power to conceal on the astral?

That's right. I went there.

Posted by: Zarek Aug 26 2011, 06:24 AM

What about Tempo?

Posted by: Fatum Aug 26 2011, 09:43 AM

Tempo's bad for your health, omae.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Aug 26 2011, 10:53 AM

Well, it makes sense that it's harder to Infiltrate if you can't see the people you're trying to sneak past. That would be spirits, for one. But it would also apply to mundane guards with so much Ruthenium that you fail to notice, an infrared laser tripwire, or a camera hidden so well that you don't spot it. These are all the same problem for the Infiltrator.

AFAIK, the rules don't say anything about it. A good ruling would of course apply to all those cases - a basic ruling on how to Infiltrate past spotters you can and spotters you can't see.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 26 2011, 11:36 AM

As Fatum said, aura surpasses your clothes, it is known.


Yes, that's a good way to do it.

Now, I think the biggest problem with being a mundane infiltrator trying to pass through astral observers is not so much the fact that they can be travelling extremely fast and pretty much from any angle, because, honestly, cover and concealment still help on the astral plane. No, the biggest problem is because you are trying to be as stealthy as if you were trying to pass mundane observers while carrying an omni-directional 750 watts spotlight. So, you either carry something with you to block this "light" or walk near other 750 watts spotlights.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 26 2011, 01:21 PM

Which leads to the question: how do you reasonably block the giant spot light while still remaining functional matrix and meat-side?

Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 26 2011, 01:42 PM

You can't, if you've stipulated 'no magic'. Concealment was mentioned (the ultimate, unexplained stealth power), and various applications of Masking might help (more for disguising than blocking). The cardboard box works, but I wouldn't call it 'functional'.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Aug 26 2011, 01:52 PM

OOOOOHHHH, COME ON! If Solid Snake can do it, why can't I?

But yeah, basically, your best option is carpet-bomb the place you are invading with FAB so it can conceal where you are, but won't conceal the fact that the facility has been breached.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 26 2011, 03:18 PM

"I upgraded from a cardboard box to a oil drum!"

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 26 2011, 05:10 PM

Oooooh. Additional "armour".

Posted by: Bigity Aug 26 2011, 05:33 PM

More difficult to affect with spells too.

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 26 2011, 05:39 PM

Well, most spells. Indirect Combat spells will still treat the barrel like swiss cheese, but who takes indirect combat spells?

Posted by: suoq Aug 28 2011, 04:36 PM

I'm still slightly confused with the infiltration against groups you can't see comments. If two groups are hunting each other and trying to stay hidden, what skill(s) do they use?

Posted by: suoq Aug 28 2011, 04:36 PM

d.p.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 28 2011, 04:42 PM

Infiltration (to stay hidden) and possibly Tracking (To actually find them, assuming you have evidence that you can use to track) or Shadowing (to keep them in sight, once you have found them). Could also use a Hacker to tell you where they are, assuming that he has them on the security systems (should not be all that hard, actually).

EDIT: And of Course, Perception... Duh!

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 29 2011, 08:38 AM

By RAW, for individuals it would be Infiltration vs Perception each way. I.e. if Perception wins twice they spot each other, if it wins once then one spots the other and if it doesn't win either then both stay hidden.

Now with groups, technically the Infiltration rolls should be done individually whilst the Perception rolls should be done once per Infiltration roll. This means one opposed test per person, which could get pretty tedious pretty quickly so you might want to make just one Perception roll per side and use the hits as a common threshold for the respective Infiltrators (kinda like an area effect spell). I would suggest simplifying it further by making only one Infiltration test per side as well (so you're back at just two opposed tests) but turn the group bonus into a penalty to reflect it being harder to keep 6 guys hidden than it is to keep 2 guys hidden. Alternatively you could use the weakest dice pool (the guy in the group most likely to blow it) and think of the group bonus as team mates helping him stay hidden - 'Psst, dude, get away from the window!'

Of course the problem with simplifying it to two opposed tests is that the result doesn't indicate exactly who spotted who, but if it's an uncomplicated set-up or you're employing a reasonably abstract approach this shouldn't matter.

There's more you can play around with if you want. For one thing you can allow Infiltration to replace Perception, as people who know how to hide will know where to seek (this is optional RAW).

You might consider successful hiding to impact on the ability to spot the other side. For example, have both sides roll their Infiltration first and then choose how many hits to keep. That number of hits is then a negative penalty to their Perception roll. I.e. a team focussed on spotting the other side is more likely to get spotted themselves than a team focussed on staying hidden.

Another option that comes to mind is Leadership. If one side has time to draw up a game plan I'd allow one of them a Leadership roll for bonus dice in the Perception or Infiltration test (but probably not both).

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 29 2011, 11:37 AM

Ah, the difficult task of making Leadership useful. I agree with it, but in the end it's just a tacked on skill no one actually seems to use.

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 29 2011, 12:13 PM

I find it works well to think of it as Persuasion.

Posted by: whatevs Sep 5 2011, 03:49 AM

Or if yer commanding a group of npc's. I'd give bonuses to keep them under control by using leadership.

Also, if your gm likes the commanding voice adept power. Leadership is used to attack with it and defend against it. It sucks when an adept with 13 dice in leadership tells you to drop your gun, and you're defending with 5 willpower dice.

Posted by: Bodak Sep 5 2011, 11:39 AM

I hope nobody gets the impression from this that ferrets are rodents. They're mustelidae, exclusively carnivorous, with very different teeth to rodents...

Posted by: Aerospider Sep 5 2011, 11:54 AM

Nice pedantry. +1 Karma.

Posted by: Bodak Sep 5 2011, 11:56 PM

I wouldn't really call it pedantry unless you'd also call objections to "Just release a sack full of stray cats near the guard outpost. When the guard sees the canines..." pedantic.

Cats and dogs are roughly the same size and have up to four legs and one tail but anyone who owns a cat or a dog will assure you in no uncertain terms they are very different indeed. The same is true for ferrets and rodents. I happen to have 2 ferrets and when they catch sight of a rat it's like dogs catching sight of a cat (but generally more terminal). They're really totally different.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 6 2011, 12:12 AM

Well say what you will but war finally fixed that, and in a pretty reasonable manner.

Posted by: Psikerlord Sep 6 2011, 12:50 PM

Way I read the astral perception modifiers in street magic, seems to me you could try and use mundane stealth against a spirit or mage. Not a great chance I guess in most cases, but maybe if you mix yourself in with a group of workers, you could apply -2 to the watcher. That plus a distraction might be enough to get you by if your hiding stats are good enough (esp with Edge?). Certainly not impossible. In any case seems to me it should be hard to beat magic without magic.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 6 2011, 02:33 PM

Actually i don't know what about a watcher would even make it able to distinguish a non worker from a worker. Where magical watchers are theoreticly a problem is in places where no one should be.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Sep 6 2011, 06:27 PM

You see, thats where I have the theoretical disconnect. that it should be hard to beat magic without magic. per fluff, people fear magic. They are afraid of magic. They don't understand it. Several major, highly militant, organizations don't have much in the way of magic. And there's a substantial sample size to test against.

This has been the case for over half a decade. Traditionally, humanity has done some things very well: one of them is find a way to utterly thrash, kill, or supplant the power of things that scare them and they consider different, whether they deserve it or not. It seems that by now, there should be a wide variety of ways to not only beat magic, but be better than magic.

You know the moment the great ghost dance happened, someone in the halls of government said two things. 1) Lets get us some of that, and 2) how do we make sure that we can kill the living shit out of anybody who can do that.

Posted by: suoq Sep 6 2011, 07:12 PM

That's so 2050.

We've had dual natured light for years now. (just run a modified current through orichalcum-laced filament). People get convicted though forensic thaumaturgy. For 1000Y you can get some Shade and visit the other side. Heck, you can even get a license for that stuff.

Magic is normal. That's why we have watchers all over the place. Sure, they were scary back before we even knew what a technomancer was, but nowadays even an AI can get a SIN. Hiring a mage is just something corps, governments, and, if you have the cash, people do.

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 6 2011, 07:26 PM

Cameras too.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 6 2011, 08:57 PM

And let's not forget "Karl the Kombat Mage"

Posted by: AppliedCheese Sep 6 2011, 09:05 PM

So, for the first 40 years no one trie dit out? I'll concede 2072 is much more magic friendly. Of course it still doesn't answer why several organizations who benefit greatly from being, well, stealthy, haven't invested in any way to beat the mages. The price point would be pretty good.

1% population magically active.

If its a 50% split between adepts and mages, 0.5% of the population is really considered the threat. Its implied that among those, the even semi decent can make a fat, comfy living due to this rarity. Call it medium life style, maybe trending to high. 60-120k a year.

So, rather than hire your own mage at 120k a year, the company that can make "haha, made your mage obsolescent" implants or gear could still be selling it at a very reasonable price point. Considering bleeding edge cyber is in that range, its apparent that the industrial base can support it, even for a small market

I imagine, for instance, the Ares sales pitch to the UCAS would be pretty good. "Tired of having your infantry platoon hump eight hours the long way around, only to have one dipshit 13 year old from a third world country compromise it all because he can summon a watcher spirit? Alert the guerrillas? Can't afford to put a mage with every 30 men? Just buy Item X, and pronto, you even out that freak of nature."

Need a mage dead? Astral signature seeking missile. A nicely converted heimdahl with a 500 lb HE warhead. Load up the signature in question, and for a mere 15k you can erase that big expensive asset the enemy has. As seen on desert wars!

Whats that intelligence services around the world? The budget has been cut again? Highly trained professionals being mentally raped because they ran into a mage and you can't have yours everywhere at once? Your safe from mind control and astral observation with item Y, and you can equip an entire field team for less than the 3 year salary of a single mage!

In short, it would be very lucrative to neutralize mages. Every armed force, security service, intelligence service, mercenary, shadowrunner, and tin pot dictator in the world would pay for it. Even domestically, it'd sell to the rich and the paranoid.

So freaking invent it! Because magic isn't magic after 60 years. Its just a technology to be beaten. And in this case, there's a lot of money in beating it. Stop treating it as something special and mysterious. Start treating it as something to be exploited and crushed in the opposition, for less. Because from the board room to the war room, for 60 years people have been pondering how to.

Posted by: Fyndhal Sep 6 2011, 09:09 PM

But if we figure out a way to beat it, it wouldn't be MagicRun anymore.

Wait...

Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 6 2011, 09:53 PM

Even the newest 2070 manatech is expensive, limited, fragile stuff.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 6 2011, 10:24 PM

And for 60 Years have not figured out how to do it... Why is that a problem? Stuff IS coming out, it is just taking time, and Billions upon Billions (Trillions by this point?) of research just to get where we are now. Just give it time (realistic amounts of time at that)...

Posted by: Saint Hallow Sep 7 2011, 04:33 AM

Isn't there also a lot of threats to mages in Astral? So having a whole bunch of spells sustained/anchored to you all the time as you fly around slinging AOE Manaballs and such is asking for something to come get you?

Posted by: Midas Sep 7 2011, 07:02 AM

OK, let's look at this logically for a minute.
Q: How does the astrally perceiving infiltrator know there is a watcher or whatever spirit there?
A: He astrally perceives it.
Q: And when he astrally perceives it, doesn't it also get a roll to astrally perceive the mage?
A: Yes, but ... wait a minute!

If you really can't hide from something you can't see, the Infiltration skill is dead. Sneaking through an alley into the gang headquarters but didn't know there was a sniper on overwatch? Game over. Sneaking into the corporate facility? Those invisible microscopic cameras you can't see pick you up as will security drones the spider has sent in 10 ... 9 ... 8 ...

I treat Infiltration as more of an abstract skill, and with the exception of specially designed very secure rooms/vaults infiltration is possible, even if the in-game explanation is that the spider/guard/watcher spirit happened to be looking at something else in that split-second the infiltrator rushes from one piece of cover to the next. Legwork on security systems in a given facility will give the infiltrator a bonus (he knows what to expect, and hopefully has the thermal dampening/ruthenium/McGuffin to counteract the security measure and give him more bonus dice). Similarly, I will give a penalty to the infiltrator and/or bonus on defenders perception for security measures the infiltrator is unaware of and unprepared for.

As for astral guards, I am not sure if this is RAW, RAI or my house rule, but although astral travel is superfast, I would not allow astral perception to provide more than a blur unless said spirit/astral projector moved at "normal" walking speeds. Otherwise you could get one astral watcher covering every inch of a corp facility in one round, in which case why would a corp bother investing in other countermeasures? So, at least in my game, said spirits patrol their said routes at walking speed using "observe in detail".

Also, bear in mind that watcher/other spirits are not necessarily difficult to fool. A spirit looking for an intruder "not wearing a corp badge" could be fooled by the moving box/oil drum/wearing grass camo scenario ("That is a box/oil drum/plant, not an intruder." in spirit understanding). Also, with the right legwork the infiltrator might know to take out a guard/off-duty employee and steal his badge, in which case the spirit would see the badge it has been instructed to look for and even a chromed up heavily armed sammie will get past in its full view. The GM must decide what specific set of rules spirits acting as astral guards are given, and whether the PC's have a chance to discover this through legwork.

To answer the OP's question, as per RAW the Infiltration skill is fine for getting by astral security. Countermeasures such as foliage camo/cardboard box/oil drum to confuse the spirit can help, as can info on astral security routes/procedures through legwork and astral overwatch from a magical teammate. Safe sneaking!

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Sep 7 2011, 09:22 AM

I would tend to agree that sneaking past astral observers is quite possible, no, let me rephrase that, SHOULD BE quite possible.

Let's look at the modifiers:

Perception mods that don't get replaced by astral visibility:

Perceiver is distracted –2, for instance because the observer is travelling around at full astral walking speed, or because a small animal has its attention
Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it +3, possibly, but without an action, and not without having a hint that something might be there
Object/sound not in immediate vicinity –2, this counts on the astral as well
Object/sound far away –3, same
Object/sound stands out in some way +2, this one should apply for all auras of living things, and that's the full extent of the rules
Interfering sight/odor/sound –2, this one should be replaced by astral visibility
Perceiver has active enhancements +rating, not applicable
Perceiver using virtual reality –6, not applicable

Now astral visibility mods:

Sterile (clean room, hospital) +2, that should hardly apply in lots of places
Barren (city streets) +1, quite likely this one applies
Developed (suburban area, desert) 0, or this one
Cultivated (park, light forest) –1, in large compounds outside of cities, obviously
Teeming (jungle, forest) –2, more rare, but still...

Aura Noise
Devoid (no living traffic) +2, likely, but not definite
Sparse (scattered, occasional bystanders) +1, this might apply quite regularly
Moderate (frequent presence of living creatures) 0, I would say that's a rare facility to sneak into
Steady (regular movement of living creatures) –1, rare
Crowded (packed with living creatures) –2, again, in a jungle

Other Factors,
Shadow Clutter –1 to –4, this might apply quite often, for instance when crossing areas where stuff is loaded, stored, etc.
Background Count Inverse of Rating*, this one also: I would expect most industrial facilities to have at least a +1 BC.
Aerosol FAB cloud (p. 126) –2, well, if you put them there.


So, and finally, there are no listed mods for sneaking, so I would simply let an infiltrator roll his Infiltration, and apply the appropriate mods to perception.

A watcher with 2 regular assensing dice now gets, for an exemplary case, while sitting around only watching:
+0 because even while observing in detail, it doesn't know where to observe
- 2 if its watching a larger area
+2 because auras are obvious, (and I would apply another +2 for every spell or focus the infiltrator is sustaining)
+1 because it's probably a sparsely populated area, or else mundane stealth will get too hard
+1 because occasionally mundane security walks past
-1 to -2 because the infiltrator doesn't likely cross the empty causeway
-1 because there is a BC of +1. Oh, wait, now the watcher has force 0. Damn.

So let's take a Force 2 spirit, instead, and just use 2 dice as remaining from the force:

The resulting assensing dice are: 2 to 1. And Tadaa, the force 2 spirit is likely as not not going to beat the trained infiltrator at all, because he actually got 3-5 hits, statistically.

Now if I were lazy I would just forget all those mods, now that I've determined that for many normal cases in fact no modifiers apply to the assensing test. So... generally astral security will just roll their normal assensing dice, vs. the normal infiltration dice of the infilitrator. While this is still much worse than against mundane perception, it's also quite fair.

Posted by: Ascalaphus Sep 7 2011, 11:14 AM

If you believe that most corporate locations have a BC of 1+ (which I don't agree with), then there won't be Watchers at all.

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Sep 7 2011, 02:53 PM

Yes, which is what I added, and replaced watchers with F2 spirits, which are then F1. Perhaps there shouldn't be a BC, well, in my experience as a player, and often as the Mage player, there often was. As a GM... it depends on what kind of facility it is.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 7 2011, 02:56 PM

I agree. The nature of sterilizing the environment would create a negative background count, if anything. But still, most areas would have no BC, unless they are particularily well kept (I may give a lab room with tons of filters and strict allowances on what comes in and out a BC of negative 1-3, dependant on how stringent it is.)

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 7 2011, 04:18 PM

Even if you ignore the background count, your total takes a watcher (2 dice) to having.... 2 to 3 dice.

Soo....net 0 gain?

Posted by: Brainpiercing7.62mm Sep 7 2011, 04:28 PM

The overall point is that IMHO hiding from astral observers isn't actually harder than hiding from normal orbservers, you just don't get all the toys and darkness to work in your favour.

Can anyone provide actual rules to contradict me?

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 7 2011, 04:56 PM

While true, the observer also has far fewer dice (on average).