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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Magic and Ware Questions
Posted by: Bushw4cker Aug 31 2011, 03:38 AM
If a Ghoul gets cybereyes, does their dual-nature power now include astral vision, since they paid for the eyes with essence?
Could a ghoul with datajack, use commlink and contacts to see? or would the ghoul have to have cybereyes as well?
Can a character have cyberware/bioware and have astral sight or spell/spirit knack quality?
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 31 2011, 03:55 AM
The ghoul would have to have raised their Magic rating, or the cybereyes would instantly Burn them Out (no longer Dual). I don't understand your question though: all ghouls are Dual Natured and *have* astral vision by default. Astral vision is an inextricable part of Dual Nature (it's practically the only defining characteristic, in fact).
Yes, sensors work fine, though the precise interaction between senses/sensors is not clearly laid out in the rules. Some GMs could require sensor tests for everything, I suppose.
IIRC, knacks/astral sight qualities can't have their Magic raised from 1, so… no. Any Essence loss would burn them out. 
*If* I recalled correctly.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Aug 31 2011, 05:51 AM
Correction. There is no Astral Vision. There is only Astral Perception. It is an additional sense. Only for us mundanes its sensations are mostly described as visual sensation, because the visual sense is the most important for us.
Whether the ghoul has or had physical vision is irrelevant for Astral Perception. As Yerameyahu correctly pointed out any Essence loss would remove the dual-natured quality form the ghoul. This actually is a very good idea for any otherwise non-awakened ghoul. It removes the threat from the astral plane.
@Astral Sight: Only if the GM gave the character that quality through Latent Awakening, which I would consider a jerk move.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Aug 31 2011, 03:57 PM
You're right. We do call it 'Astral Sight' or 'astral vision', but those aren't accurate. (Astral Sight is the RAW name of the knack, though, yes?)
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 1 2011, 12:58 AM
I recall there being a sidebar about knacks and astral sight, aout allowing characters to raise their magic to allow for the use of them, even cybered up. Personally, i have no problem with it, they are adequately restricted in my opinion, otherwise. Why spend 25 BP to be able to cast one force 1-6 spell, which will probably give the Street Sam more damage then just opening fire or sneaking past the opponent anyway?
Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Sep 1 2011, 01:06 AM
If the cyber eyes sent raw sense data as transmitted through lenses just as the naked, mark 1 eye ball does, then yes. If the cyber eye takes in stimulus as a human eye would (ie a lens) and then at any point digitizes it, then the eye can not perceive astrally. The sensors in a stock cybereye have no way of receiving or processing astral data that I know of. You'd lose the visual portion of astral perception.
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 1 2011, 01:13 AM
Except there is no "visual portion" of astral perception.
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 1 2011, 01:26 AM
Astral perception doesn't come from your *eyes* anyway. Neither does it come through the air. Cybereyes are unrelated.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 1 2011, 01:27 AM
You just need a magic rating to astrally perceive.
Magicians with cybereyes can do it all the time.
Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Sep 1 2011, 01:46 AM
Fair enough.
Posted by: Mardrax Sep 1 2011, 11:32 AM
Just for spelling it out: note that a Ghoul's blindness doesn't apply to Astral Perception. They can 'see' you fine on the astral. Unless you do the Solid Snake.
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 1 2011, 12:47 PM
Do you have a page reference where it says that they actually loose dual natured upon burning out? It would make Ghouls a lot more playable.
Posted by: Udoshi Sep 1 2011, 01:06 PM
Sure do. Emphasis mine
Starting Infected characters start with Essence 5 and Magic 1
during character generation. The Infected may increase their Magic
attribute with BP or Karma as any other attribute to a maximum
of 5 (+ initiate grade). Magic is used for any tests involving the
Infected’s innate powers. If an Infected character’s Magic attribute
is reduced to 0 (temporarily or permanently), it loses the use of all
its powers except Natural Weapon and Enhanced Senses, if any.
Note that ghoul sams have less essence to play with than other archetypes, and some restrictions on the type of ware they can take, but make up for it with good stat boosts.
But yeah. If you want to play a ghoul, and want to dodge the Dual Natured problem, just get a datajack or some cybereyes.
A ghoul mage, on the other hand will not have as much magic as another character.
If you wanted to get no-essence sight, you could pretty easily hook up Trodes, a Sim Module to pipe the stream, and goggles with an Image Link together.
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 1 2011, 01:11 PM
Does Dual Natured actually count as a "power"?
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 1 2011, 01:17 PM
In the case of non magicians, it's actually more of a FLAW . .
Otherwise, it means you can do everything you can do with your normal eyes without most vision modifiers.
and you do not have the -2 dice because you are astrally perceiving . .
Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 1 2011, 01:28 PM
Why wouldn't it be?
Page 294, SR4A
-k
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 1 2011, 01:33 PM
Just sounded too good to be true. You loose all drawbacks associated with ghouls (dual natured & infection), and can even get some BP on top of it (infertile infected).
Posted by: Udoshi Sep 1 2011, 01:33 PM
Actually, the main benefit for being dual natured comes into play if you're a magician or a mystic adept.
Being able to lay down Counterspelling on the physical and astral planes at once, without any penalty.
That's about the only upside, though. Getting rid of it means you can't be astral jetfightered by spirits and mages.
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 1 2011, 04:31 PM
Being a dual natured ghoul isn't quite as bad as most people make it out to be, though. It can be dealt with without burning out and losing the dual natured power. Just make a ghoul PC as an adept or mystic adept with Great Leap and Distance Strike. Ghouls can make scarily effective melee fighters with their attribute boosts.
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 1 2011, 04:33 PM
For truly unmatched physical power, try a ghoul Troll. Talk about the worst thing to meet in a dark alley...
Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Sep 1 2011, 05:08 PM
A really hungry Lofwir, specially after you've been pranked by your friends and is completely covered in tomato sauce.
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 1 2011, 05:21 PM
Touché
Posted by: CanRay Sep 1 2011, 05:26 PM
Actually, being German, wouldn't he rather a nice bier marinade?
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 1 2011, 06:47 PM
Hmm. Runnerwurst und bier. I wonder how big a mug you'd need to hold enough beer to satisfy Lofwyr.
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 1 2011, 06:48 PM
Does not compute
Posted by: Tanegar Sep 1 2011, 06:49 PM
So "enough beer" is like "enuff dakka?"
Posted by: CanRay Sep 1 2011, 07:20 PM
"Sir, a... A... A dragon just came and DRANK THE BREWERY! ALL OF THE BREWERY!!!" "Yeah, he does that. Don't worry, he owns the place, so he's drinking his own profits."
Posted by: Udoshi Sep 2 2011, 02:40 AM
....
You know that burnt out ghoul and adept are mutually exclusive, right? Magic 0 adept is not an adept at all.
Though i suppose its a good candidate for way of the burnout
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 2 2011, 02:43 AM
Read again. He's talking about *not* burning out, and dealing with it via being an adept.
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 2 2011, 02:49 AM
Thank you, Yerameyahu. 
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 2 2011, 02:51 AM
I'm not sure you're right (at least, about effectively dealing with Dual Natured). The Mystic Adept with a Stunbolt, on the other hand…
Posted by: Sephiroth Sep 2 2011, 03:58 AM
Ultimately it does come down to tactics. A ghoul PC should try not to allow itself to be attacked from the astral in a wide open space. In that case, obviously the mage will have the gross advantage. But if the ghoul is smart and puts the mage in a position where he/she has to enter an enclosed space to attack the ghoul, like...say... in a vehicle (the popular and very tempting situation for "spirit-bombing," as we both know), then the ghoul PC will have the advantage over the mage or spirit in question. ESPECIALLY with Distance Strike, Great Leap, Pain Resistance, and Spell Resistance. Tactics are important for Ghoul PC's, that's true for everything in SR, but a ghoul adept definitely has it better off than a non-Awakened but still dual natured ghoul.
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 05:02 PM
The Ghoul adept would be better off, yes. But Ghouls are not necessarily feral creatures, even as NPCs (although they can be), and should be able to mitigate their weaknesses, anyway. As Ghouls are Dual natured, and as such able to astrally percieve, they have the ability to construct wards, which, in combat with a mage, can function as stationary barriers the ghouls can freely pass without letting the mage through so easily. They can also be used to herd astral projectors into traps.
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 3 2011, 05:07 PM
Provided the Ghoul actually has homeground advantage. If he doesn't, he's just as easily screwed by enemy wards.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 05:13 PM
wait . . ghouls can construct wards without being mages themselves? O.o
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 05:22 PM
SR4A 194
Wards are a temporary form of dual-natured mana barrier that can be
created by any Awakened being with astral perception (including spirits
and adepts with the Astral Perception power).
First line about wards.
The test is Magic+willpower. No spellcasting involved.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 05:45 PM
*blink blink* . . dude . . i never knew that . . i don't trust magic . . will have to make sure none of my GM's or players in my group ever learn of this <.<
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 06:01 PM
Yeah, since that security mage you may be specced out to fight could actually be an AR Adept with Astral Perception, commanding drones.
Posted by: Irion Sep 3 2011, 06:07 PM
Sorry, but beeing dual natured, exept for a spirit, sucks big time.
A ward is a real problem for your kind.
Have fun rolling this charisma+willpower-test against force*2.
Force 6, bad for you.
And even if you get through, you set off the alarm...
The easiest way to deal with this bullshit of dual natured is to replace it with astral perception.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 06:11 PM
i am NEVER specced out to fight ANYTHING magical that i can not simply hit with a blunt object the size of a motorcycle i'm afraid <.<;,
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 06:14 PM
A ward is a real problem for your kind.
Have fun rolling this charisma+willpower-test against force*2.
Force 6, bad for you.
And even if you get through, you set off the alarm...
The easiest way to deal with this bullshit of dual natured is to replace it with astral perception.
I know it's a problem, but it's not supposed to be all upside. You just need to be imaginitive with how you deal with it. In a Ghoul Warren, being able to put up Wards on the walls will help protect you from the annoying mages that will probably come to slaughter you. And so will putting smaller wards around the open areas, since the creator can freely choose who can go through. Even if not strictly allowed at all times, I would give all ghouls that live in the area the homefield advantage, there, as they should be able to pick there way between the barriers.
Dual Natured is a hurdle for offence, but it can be a boon for defense.
Posted by: Irion Sep 3 2011, 06:30 PM
Sorry, it is more of a drawback than a boni in any way.
How is it a good defance if any mage can fry your ass? If you can be burned on both planes on the same time.
But so what? You are still able to cast a spell on the target behind the ward...
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 06:35 PM
How is it a good defance if any mage can fry your ass? If you can be burned on both planes on the same time.
But so what? You are still able to cast a spell on the target behind the ward...
It'll provide bonus dice on the resistance test, which is better then nothing, and if the mage isn't in person, the ward provides a negative dice pool modifier to astral perception, meaning, no, he might not see you.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 06:48 PM
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 07:02 PM
The one time i DID try magic . . it was underwhelmingly weak . .
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 07:12 PM
I get the feeling that I was running the magic rules wrong. Will try to do better if I ever get to play.
*Sighs* IF!
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 07:32 PM
*Sighs* IF!
Did your game not pan out?
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 07:34 PM
*Sighs* IF!
Repeat after me:
The Magic System gets stronger the less the GM understands it!
The Matrix System gets weaker the less the GM understands IT!
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 07:46 PM
The other two just fell apart like all the others I've tried for 20-years.
EDIT: Back on topic, I'm working on a character concept for my writing (I can rely on that at least somewhat) for a Physical Adept Troll walking The Way Of The Warrior with a Cyberarm (And a story behind that, of course). Thoughts?
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 08:07 PM
The other two just fell apart like all the others I've tried for 20-years.
EDIT: Back on topic, I'm working on a character concept for my writing (I can rely on that at least somewhat) for a Physical Adept Troll walking The Way Of The Warrior with a Cyberarm (And a story behind that, of course). Thoughts?
Sounds like my kinda guy!
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 08:12 PM
Basically, I made two players for groups that I can't play (One because I can't play the character, the other because the group fell apart), Nas from my stories, and this new character, all brought together to do a job... Magic and tech combined in a strange mixture.
And then Mr. Johnson is forced to carry the Idiot Ball by his superiors, and makes a very, very, VERY bad mistake...
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 08:19 PM
J:"Hmm, i have an adept who could be kinda usefull with his skillset . . and we have that guy with the interesting arm, but he is an ass . . i have a cunning plan!"
some hours later:
J²:"Hmm . . ok, so . . this did not go exactly as planned . . but i think we can learn a valuable lesson from this . . namely'Don't force a Troll-Adept into anything he does not like and giving him something horribly efficient at hurting people at the same time!'"
Posted by: Mardrax Sep 3 2011, 08:43 PM
By "Mad Rep," do you mean you're widely acknowledged, or have a reputation for being mad?
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 08:45 PM
Probably both.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 08:53 PM
Also, I'm from the mountains of Northern Ontario, these Flatlanders think I'm downright completely insane.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 08:55 PM
Poor guy.
Why can't you be german and in Hamburg?
I'd love to have you in my group as a co player . .
if only so the GM's pay less attention to me <.<;,
Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 09:13 PM
'Cause I'm here.
Posted by: Mardrax Sep 3 2011, 09:17 PM
Yay for Awakened with cyberlimbs! Especially when they're the non-optimal choice!
I have a semi-leadermancer, full-time squishy with two half-legs of awesome. Used 'ware too. I love him.
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 09:30 PM
I have a semi-leadermancer, full-time squishy with two half-legs of awesome. Used 'ware too. I love him.
I made a mage hacker with a cyberarm once. Best character I ever played, even though only one spell would ever work for him... (Shape Ferrous metal)
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 09:32 PM
*blink blink*
dude, that's genious O.o
shape arm into a blade for example?
Posted by: Critias Sep 3 2011, 09:36 PM
It can make for a nasty mo'fo. Except for the troll part, I ran an adept-plus-cyberarm for a long time, and Jace worked out just fine. Nasty piece of work.
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 09:36 PM
dude, that's genious O.o
shape arm into a blade for example?
Well, maybe. He didn't have any melee combat skills, but eventually I might've. Mostly, I just used the spell to bolster defence with a barrier or additional armour.
Edit: Two dumbfounded reactions in one day. I'm on a roll.
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 3 2011, 09:39 PM
*shrugs*
shape arm into shield then, that's good too, right?
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 3 2011, 09:48 PM
shape arm into shield then, that's good too, right?
Well, maybe. See, I didn't want to play with the arm too much (so I upped the armour on it to play with that if I needed to), because if I altered the shape, it wouldn't act as a cyberarm anymore, and would require the right tech skills (cybertech), in order to get teh piecing back in working order. (GM and I worked it out before hand, I didn't invest in the right skills, so I put a cyberwear scanner in the arm. Figured if I can't mess with mine, I might as well know whose I might have the chance to mess with)
Posted by: Traul Sep 3 2011, 10:11 PM
EDIT: never mind
Posted by: Yerameyahu Sep 3 2011, 11:33 PM
Are cyberarms even made of ferrous metal, and doesn't their extremely complex mechanical structure pose a problem? I guess he could have a nonfunctional 'hook' arm.
Posted by: Mardrax Sep 3 2011, 11:36 PM
Not to mention you can't affect part of an object with magic, let alone specifically target an implanted piece of cyberware.
Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 02:56 AM
Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 4 2011, 04:42 PM
Which is another reason I went with the Armour upgrade. It made more sense that the armour could be ferrous, then the whole arm.
Yes. However, the shape spell can affect any object of the type it is designed for, even if it's a piece of something else, by breaking it down (it reduces the "structure" by force each turn).
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 4 2011, 05:11 PM
Ganger: So, what you gunna do? Force that arm down my throat?
Bubba: Exactly. *casts turn to goo on cyberarm*
Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 05:22 PM
Bubba: Exactly. *casts turn to goo on cyberarm*
Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 4 2011, 05:26 PM
Uhm . . Turn to goo specifically does NOT work on Cyber-Ware!
You'd turn BUBBA into goo, but the ARM would stay the arm.
Posted by: Elfenlied Sep 4 2011, 05:33 PM
So therefore, I'd need a character with all limbs except one arm replaced by cyberlimbs. Then it works!
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