Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Elfenlied Aug 31 2011, 08:17 AM

I was wondering what they teach new recruits at Knight Errant academy, assuming you're actually a promising candidate (so no skillwire packages please). This is just about the basics, what every field detective should know. Also, this will probably be ridiculously expensive in BP, but doable in Karmagen.

The list thus far:
Basic physical and mental exercise/screening: No stat below 3.
Athletics 2
Firearms 2
Close Combat 2
Perception 3
Etiquette 2
Pilot Ground Craft 2
First Aid 2

Anything I might have missed?

Posted by: Minchandre Aug 31 2011, 08:34 AM

Maybe add Con? Cops often have to trick people when trying to get confessions or witness testimony. Tracking might be good too, for investigations.

MAybe those are both detectives' skills?

Anyway, requiring all of Firearms and Close Combat is unnecessary. Pick one or two skills from each.

Posted by: Aerospider Aug 31 2011, 08:59 AM

Intimidation is a must for law enforcement I'd say.

Also, police have to be excellent drivers so you might consider the pilot skill being a minimum of 3, maybe even 4.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 31 2011, 09:01 AM

Here are the standard stats I use for a standard beat cop. This isn't specifically a detective, nor is it a desk jocky or a meter maid. Stats assume human

Physical Attributes 4
Mental Attributes 3

Automatics 2
Longarms 2
Pistols(Automatics) 2(+2)
Perception(Concealed Objects) 3(+2)
Etiquette 2
Leadership(Crowd Control) 3(+2)
Pilot Ground Craft(Car) 2(+2)
Computers 1
Data Search 1
Close Combat Skill Group 2
Athletics Skill Group 2
Forgery 1
Intimidation 3

Public Security Protocol 3
City Navigation 3
City Laws 2
City Gang Recognition 2
Street Drugs 1

Ares Predator IV
Armored Jacket
Monocle w/Image-Link, Smart-link, and Low-Light Vision
Earbuds
AR Gloves
Holo Projector
Stun Baton
Custom Knight-Errant Public Security Commlink(System 3, Signal 3, Response 3, Firewall 4, Analyse 3, Scan 3, Edit 2)

Posted by: Seriously Mike Aug 31 2011, 10:36 AM

What would be the difference between getting the whole Close Combat skill group as opposed to investing only in Unarmed and Clubs? Or is there another necessary skill in the group, like Dodge?

Posted by: Infornography Aug 31 2011, 11:05 AM

Unarmed Combat (Subdue) and Clubs (Batons) or Clubs (Prods) instead of Close Combat.

Posted by: Kliko Aug 31 2011, 11:11 AM

what ever happened to the "Police procedures" skill?

Or "Security procedures" for that matter.

Perhaps you want to include first aid in there too.

Posted by: Grinder Aug 31 2011, 11:13 AM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=8261

Posted by: suoq Aug 31 2011, 12:38 PM

Pistols (Tasers) 2
Automatics (Submachine Guns) 2 - Note: Personal belief is cops should have additional clip, one clip with S&S, one with APDS. Anyone still standing after being told to lie down with their hands on their head and a hefty spraying of S&S gets the ADPS.
Unarmed Combat (Shock Glove) 2
Athletics 2
Pilot Ground Craft 2
Influence 3
Intimidation 3
Perception 3

Additional weapon skills per job.
Additional pilot skills per job.
Some may have stealth skills.
Some may have computer or even hacking skills.
Some may have additional levels. What's above is a minimum.

Posted by: Critias Aug 31 2011, 03:56 PM

I'm a tremendous advocate of the whole Firearms skill group for cops (in part because of how weird individual gun skills are). For the most part the basic equipment SR gives to patrol officers is largely based on real life (for once).

Everyone's got a pistol and qualifies with it regularly (one skill), the "go to" backup gun in most cruisers is still a pump action shotgun (a second skill), and more and more departments are adding an M4 of some kind to the trunk, for real shit hitting the fan situations (another skill). Since even just a default uniformed officer cruising around in a squad car needs to certify once a year with three different gun skills, the Firearm skill group just makes sense.

And training in Automatics also gives your SWATties a basic grasp of Automatics (so some can go on to use an SMG if they want), and the Long guns they have for Shotguns means eventually someone can branch out into sport/sniper rifles if they want to. SotA 2064 has a good rundown of the SWAT/Fast Response Team load-outs for those who are interested, and starting each officer off with the Firearm skill group at a reasonable level is a great way to get them halfway to where they'll need to be, die-pool wise.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 03:58 PM

"Knowledge skill of 'Law'" might come in handy. Just sayin'.

Posted by: explorator Aug 31 2011, 04:08 PM

Someone who just graduated from K-E academy would not be a 'field detective'. Detectives are chosen from the ranks of regular cops that apply each year, and then get added training. Almost every detective has an undergrad degree in CJ, as most PD's require it.

Today, cops spend 6 months in the Academy. They are paid a full salary as soon as they are hired, so there is motivation to get them trained and on the street asap. While in the Academy, cops learn all about police bureaucracy, police and court procedure, law, and local ordinances. Recruits learn to fire handguns and shotguns, learn basic small-unit tactics, train with their 'billy-clubs', and learn hand-to-hand submission and control techniques. Recruits also learn to drive their cruisers and maximize advantages in chase situations. In a handful of cities in the U.S. officers learn to fire a semi-automatic rifle similar to the AR-15. Cops do not learn first-aid, and are trained to call the paramedics if they suffer an injury in the line of duty, if they see someone with an obvious injury, or if someone makes a credible complaint of an injury.

The other reason training is only six months, is that there really is only so much a recruit can learn in the classroom. The second half of training takes place on the street under the tutelage of specially-prepared Training Officers. This usually lasts six-months, but can be extended up to a year in most cases if a recruit needs more time to get up to speed. After that, most cops are largely on there own, literally and figuratively. They spend their shifts by themselves in a squad car, driving around answering calls. TBH, if there are not many calls, there is little to do. It takes an exceptional officer to initiate any kind of pro-active 'policing' other than just making a presence. Most recruits make it to the streets. Chances are, the recruiting class was 10+ bodies short of what was requested, and the department needs warm bodies.

Sheriff deputies follow a similar arc, but often work for six months to a year as guards in the county jail, in addition to the other training. This time is spent learning to manage criminals,i.e. intimidation and negotiation, and learning the finer points of paperwork and bureaucracy.

The vast majority of cops never fire their weapon in the line of duty. Over half of a departments officer-shooting incidents revolve around less than 5% of the officers. The point being, that most street cops get very familiar with the areas they patrol, and get very proficient at filling out paperwork for car accidents and dui's, and very little else.

After spending several years in uniform, most agencies allow officers to apply for more specialized positions. Detectives get additional training, some in a classroom setting, and some on the streets. Their study concentrates on advanced interrogation and intimidation techniques, along with the psychological implications of dealing with dishonest or deceptive individuals. As far a forensics go, most detectives learn about crime-scene integrity and little else, unless they have personal interest. In almost ALL the cops shows, ALL the detectives go to the morgue and talk to the coroner, but this is mostly a fiction, irl, the detectives are extremely busy, and they already saw the dead body and learned what they could at the scene; reading the report is about as good as it gets.

Now, this is a world where law-enforcement is publicly funded. Today's police departments use private-security firms to handle basic security at facilities/parking lots, etc. That's right, many cops have to show their ID to a security guard on a daily basis. Private security is very affordable compared to staffing those areas with cops, which is how it worked in the past.

Now, K-E is probably a great corp, that cares about its employees and spends top-dollar training their officers. Right? A K-E officer would have to be highly self-motivated to match the type of character described in the OP.

This got kind of off topic, sorry. I have a minor in CJ, and know some cops btw.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 04:14 PM

Actually, don't we have some real members of police forces on here? Let's hear their two cents on their old Academy days?

...

Other than what happened with the Llama that you smuggled into the men's shower room. No one wants to hear about that.

Posted by: UmaroVI Aug 31 2011, 04:44 PM

Remember that you use social skills to defend against other social skills - cops without Con are easy to lie to, for example.

I would suggest:
Probably they have more like a minimum of 3 in physical stats and 2 in mental stats. Someone with a minimum of 3 is going to be above-average, maybe significantly so if they have a few 4s or 5s. Half of all people are below average, and "KE Beat Cop" isn't exactly a glamorous profession that's going to attract nothing but the best and brightest.

I don't buy Athletics 2. Is your average beat cop going to be as good at gymnastics as a high school athlete? I think they should probably have Running 2 and maybe Climbing/Swimming 1.

I agree they need Firearms 2.

I don't think they should have close combat 2. Is a beat cop going to know what to do with a sword? They should probably have Clubs (Batons) and Unarmed (Subdual) as suggested.
Perception 3, First Aid 2, and Piloting 2 I agree, although they should maybe instead have Pilot Ground Vehicle (Wheeled) 1 (3) since they mostly just drive cruisers.

Social-skills wise, they should definitely have Intimidation (Physical) and Con, probably both at 2. Etiquette should probably be specialized in Police and at 1(3). They should also probably know Leadership, since it's used to exercise authority and thus would cover "getting citizens to do what you tell them."

Police Procedures 3 and Law 2 are also probably good.

Posted by: suoq Aug 31 2011, 04:54 PM

Since, oddly enough, "gymnastics" is your "dodge ranged fire" skill, and since I've seen cops practicing skills such as forwards rolls, I think you're focused too much on the name of the skill rather that the actual abilities it implies. Yes, I don't expect police officers to compete in gymnastics, but I do expect them to tumble, keep their balance when walking a beam, vault a counter, etc.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Aug 31 2011, 04:55 PM

Which is what Dodge is for, with a Ranged Specialty.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 31 2011, 05:15 PM

Not a single person mentioned Shadowing? Or is that generally considered more of a detective skill than a typical cop?

Posted by: suoq Aug 31 2011, 05:17 PM

I saw the skills in that group being skill some, but not all, cops would have.

Posted by: AppliedCheese Aug 31 2011, 05:40 PM

Of course, the counterpoint to some of these is thusly:

Most modern cops get very good at DUIs, car accidents, speeding tickets, and maybe handling the occasional drunken disturbance. Procedures, law, bureaucracy, and making sure you don't get sued are all very important functions.

If you were a beat cop in say, 1970's Harlem, you very likely had a somewhat more...immediately physical...skill set after a while. And there's a reason departments on I-95 train more on vehicle search and seizure, and the LAPD of the 90s was somewhat more combative in nature.

Because "firearms 2, law 2, bureaucracy lots" might be fine for policing 2011 suburbia, but I can't imagine its the basic skill pack in a world where go gangs run free, trolls are your domestic disturbances, there's such a thing as an ork flash-mob, and there's even the occasional shadow runner mucking about.

Posted by: Traul Aug 31 2011, 05:57 PM

Security Procedures (Call for reinforcements)

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 07:07 PM

Should any of them have it?

I mean, hell, I can typically spot a police officer even off-duty. It's the eyes, hands, and walk. Very distinctive.

Posted by: Seerow Aug 31 2011, 07:12 PM

I was thinking shadowing for tailing and the like. Especially for undercover officers. Disguise probably wouldn't go amiss either.

Posted by: Critias Aug 31 2011, 07:23 PM

Right, but he's talking about rookies fresh from the Academy.

Posted by: suoq Aug 31 2011, 07:27 PM

That sounds remarkably like "gaydar". How do you know the people you don't think are officers aren't officers?

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 07:36 PM

Same way you can tell someone that's been in combat opposed to someone that hasn't if you know what to look for.

Gaydar doesn't work because there's so many different types of "Homosexuality", just like any other society. A Police Officer (And I'm talking city cops here, I don't have the experience to spot a country officer) that's been on patrol likely has had to deal with a lot of the same issues, and will have ingrained instincts that you can watch for if you know how.

Again: Eyes, hands, walk. That said, I've been mistaken for military (REMF) a few times because of the way I move, so false positives are certainly possible. And if you know about those motions, you can train yourself not to be obvious about them the same way a professional gambler hides their "Tells".

Posted by: suoq Aug 31 2011, 07:54 PM

I'll break the rule of dumpshock and repeat myself. Are you asking the people you do and don't think have been in combat if they have or not or are you just convincing yourself? As an example, have you ever gone to a gathering of 100 random strangers, written down who was and who wasn't and then asked them to verify your answers?

Have you ever found out with large sample of random strangers how accurate you really are?

Posted by: HunterHerne Aug 31 2011, 07:58 PM

That would be... interesting. I'd also place bets that the guys most likely to say "yes", are the guys you'd least expect, depending how wide an idea of "combat" you are using. I have never been in military or gang warfare-range of combat, but I have been on the recieving end of several "fights" involving getting my ass beat into the ground, as well as learning to fight with melee weapons in friendly, competitive combat, which has caused some blood to spill non-lethally.

Posted by: TheOOB Aug 31 2011, 08:20 PM

I defiantly think the beat the cop walks will affect their skills, as will how experienced they are. As for active skills, as I mentioned above, the skills I think a beat cop would have at 3(professional) level are perception(cops need to be alert and able to notice concealed weapons/contraband), intimidate(to resolve situations non-violently), and leadership(to get random people to comply with orders).

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 08:41 PM

...

...

...

Damnit, where's Keith Richards when you need an enforcement of the rules?

All right, have I done so scientifically (Which, in a nutshell, you're asking)? No. I haven't.

Am I trying to convince myself? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't live in a lifestyle where being able to conclusively ID a plainclothes or off-duty policeman is a required skill, so the point is moot.

But the skill is there. How to recognize someone from the way they react and move? Very much exists.

Posted by: Bearclaw Aug 31 2011, 10:17 PM

So far as I know, cops get the First Responder course in training. Which, when I took it, was a 40 hour course. Which sounds to me like First Aid:1.
I'm also guessing that there is less paperwork and political BS in a private police force. Fewer paper pushers and less time filling out reports means more profit.

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 10:21 PM

Or a lot more of it at drekkier pay.

Posted by: Cenobite Aug 31 2011, 10:36 PM

I'd toss in an area knowledge for whatever city they serve in.

Posted by: Kirk Aug 31 2011, 11:33 PM

Haven't worked police. Have worked prison, got told the training is similar. Understand this is State of Colorado and I /know/ it varies from state to state and municipal to municipal. It'll still give some basis.

1/3 of it was paperwork. Laws, regs, and policies, and what paperwork has to be done when and what the standards are supposed to be so appropriate action can be taken. Court and hearing procedures took a bit. Weapons familiarization was very short; I'd be hesitant to give more than a 1.

Got a 1, maybe a 2 in unarmed combat: subdual. We got a surprisingly (it seemed at the time) large amount of training on social skills for defusing situations: approaches, speech (patterns, tones, pacing) and stance both as primary and as backup. Add another huge block of recognizing situations -- call it defensive con and perception training.

Most things at 1 or at most 2; not enough to have to rely on default but far from expert. The vast majority on the "boring" parts of the job; the parts you do 80 to 95% of the time (more if you're lucky).

To repeat myself, it was training for a category II law enforcement officer: correctional officer. The police I worked with in Colorado Springs said the training was pretty much the same for them except they got more street and less facility situation training.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Aug 31 2011, 11:37 PM

I know quite a few cops, and I was loaned out to military police so here are my observations.

Firearms Group: Good, a cop will need knowledge of a wide variety of firewarms, primarily pistols and long arms, but in Shadowrun automatics might come up enough to make it usefull.
Unarmed Combat (grapple) cops in my experience spend a disturbing amount of time trying to physically wrestle someone to the ground in order to get the cuffs on them.
Batons - Beating the crap out of people is a good way to get compliance, you can use this for softening before the above subdue.
Influence Group - Cops spend most of their time dealing wit the public, this is a large part of making sure they can do it effectively, and as others have said this is also used to tell if someones lying to you.
First Aid - Knowing basic CPR and trauma care.
Perception - Natch
Athletics group - The physical requirement to get to be a cop are actually fairly high, and most places due require a sliding scale of upkeep to stay a cop. Bad diet, odd hours, and other factors erode this but realisticly most cops are in better shape then the population norm.
Intimidate- Most cops will have a smattering of this, but a lot of the time they lean on their situational modifiers.

Now personally i found the cyberware package given to the police in the book a joke and more symptomatic of the cyber-hate that fourth seems to have qutie a bit on. Most cops are going to be wared, likely as soon as they get through the academy and own their ware after five years on the force. This ware will include: eyes, ears, internal comlink, light bone lacing. Most municipalities will likely spring for wired reflexes one, others will use jazz and autoinjectors.. The point of this ware isn't to make the beat cop able to deal with shadowrunners it's to help him deal with the public day in and day out reducing the chances of being injured or killed and missing work. In short it's to get the best return on investment. The other stuff is to make anything he sees or hears admissible in a court of law (at least against a public defender or a perp without a hacker).

Posted by: CanRay Aug 31 2011, 11:42 PM

Can't find it at the moment, but the picture of the riot cops from Transmetropolitan washing the blood off their shields came to mind when you talked about the baton usage.

EDIT: Cops also get a bonus to their intimidate when dealing with the general public. They are "The Man", of course, and everyone knows they can be nailed on something... Anything.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 1 2011, 12:11 AM

I agree with most of this, but I doubt some of the ware would be available to even peace officers. Bone lacing, for instance, is a forbidden, and I'm willing to bet only military would spend that much on it. However, the rest I agree. Especially for the recording. Hell's, just today I was thinking that it would be stupid for officers to not share information, in a tacnet-like way, if not an actual tacnet, for the purpose of having someone able to verify accounts, and having someone able to react to the tense situation from outside.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 1 2011, 12:16 AM

Well the swat setup in augmentation already has bone lacing, I just felt that what they see as a swat setup should actualyl be standard issue for many officers. The other caveat is many toys that officers get are forbidden to the public, i do think a tacnet or other central data collection makes a lot of sense, I just didn't want to explicitly add it.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 1 2011, 12:20 AM

When running a Lone Star hack for my group, I informed them that Lone Star either had Biomonitors installed in the officers themselves, or in their uniforms. If one of them goes unconscious or dies, the link-up from the squad car to the HQ (Which was how they were back-dooring to get the paydata) disconnects. Just made sense to me. Also sets off a screamer to DocWagon.

Good news, getting the hacker into the back seat of the squad car worked great! Bad news, yeah, critically failing your "Gangs" Knowledge roll and getting the Halloweeners to be a distraction wasn't so drek-hot an idea...

Also scared the hell out of the Heavy Weapons Troll in the group with the Ruger Thunderhawk by my description of it's functioning. "SONOFACRAP! What the HELL was that?" was his question, followed by, "I want one!"

Posted by: Grinder Sep 1 2011, 05:53 AM

Speaking of US cops here, not german ones.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 1 2011, 06:17 AM

Now you have to elaborate, are there lots of fat German cops? Or are they in way better then the population norm?

Posted by: Grinder Sep 1 2011, 06:36 AM

German cops don't have to re-do the initial sports/ physical tests once they're accepted into service. That means that most cops don't stay in good shape after they've finished their training (which is 2-3 years long iirc).

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 1 2011, 06:48 AM

Ah, American cops do have to re-qualify in most places (there is a lot of variation from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) but traditionally the standards get more lax as they get older so there is a certain grain of truth to the overweight detective one sees on American TV.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 1 2011, 11:13 AM

Tacnets should be used by any and every semi-professional team, from law enforcement, security, the fire brigade, and DocWagon to American Football teams and rally drivers.

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 1 2011, 11:31 AM

I mostly agree, but I'm not sure average cops should have Negotiation.

Intimidate, I agree not all modern police officers would have it, but Dark Eighties Future cops should probably all have it as one of their higher skills.

Posted by: Kirk Sep 2 2011, 01:27 AM

Now all the above said, I've got this picture for how Lone Star and KE and all them work "these days".

The first layer is cameras (and other sensors) everywhere. There are too many to watch, actually. Their use is twofold: first, the fact they're known to be watching is a bit of a deterrent. Second, they're good for seeing what happened so appropriate actions against the right people can be taken. Well, mostly, provided the angle isn't bad or something like that. But still, they help a lot.

The next layer is good old officer presence. An officer riding around in a squad car. There are two tiers here: the good parts of town and the bad parts. The good part first. An officer in a reinforced sedan that has a drone pad which is carrying a doberman. The doberman goes everywhere the officer goes. In addition to officer command there are some automatic events that'll have the doberman signal the rigger back at base that officer attention is needed. Not necessarily a jump-in, but more than the automatics.

The doberman's sensors are always recording. It's got an over-under weapon mount, with a grenade launcher and an automatic weapon. Both have several types of ammo in their bins, and the smartgun ammo selector picks what's needed.

Speaking of ammo, the doberman's got one fairly simple deterrents against spoofing in addition to the standards. Not perfect, mind you, but workable. The standards are decent firewall and system, and both signal and node are encrypted, some commands authorized at security (from officer) and others requiring admin (from rigger). The bonus is that the weapons are unloaded. The first action to use them MUST be "load weapon". As you might guess, this is one of the auto-calls for riggers. If the dobie is loading either things are going down or it's being spoofed/hacked.

The officer... Cyber implants aren't standard, though many choose to get some. The commlink and other sensors are always recording. The comm is running face identification, maybe gait id, and lie detector software. There's a knowsoft with laws and regs loaded as well. The AR is tied into the copnet - a net that checks location, checks nearby RFIDs, and highlights everything that has a file in the records. That guy walking along with a yellow highlight? Tagged as possible suspect in a couple of cases. That lady over there? a slew of traffic tickets - paid, but they still exist. That doorway over there with the flags? Marks a crime site - actually a place where several crimes have occurred over the past month. And on, and on. Officers adjust the flag level, especially as pretty much everyone has some sort of record. Oh, don't forget: black flags around people with no record. Whether it's because their ID is falsified or they've somehow removed every RFID or they're just running everything in hidden, the absence is a warning all itself.

Some armor, a handgun with SnS and smartgun, a couple of handcuffs (one for mages), extra armor and a heavier weapon in the vehicle. It's also got a decent first aid/medical kit, a range of ammo, RFID and other tags, and so forth.

Oh, and the cage in the vehicle is heavily reinforced. It won't hold a heavily cybered troll, but it'll manage the normal street troll, drugs or no drugs.

Bad neighborhood? Fewer per area, riding small vans or trucks instead of sedans, more heavily armored, and the officers and their dogs travel in pairs.

Just my picture, of course.

Posted by: suoq Sep 2 2011, 03:00 AM

I have a hard time thinking there's a single style of enforcement. When I was writing up the local area (as a distraction) I found that I has very different forms of law enforcement depending on the area.

1) Multi-company military/research town. The goal of the police isn't to enforce the law, it's to enforce the peace. There's a lot of military, ex-military, high end security, and consultants walking around with everything from forbidden ware to magic skills best ignored. It became the town where you could retire and no one would look at you funny for carrying obsolete, but incredibly deadly, cyberware. In that setting I decided the police cared about keeping things peaceful. Instead of making sure all the cogs were in the right place, their job was to make sure the machine was well greased.

2) State capitol filled with refugees and academics. Here, we have the flip side. These police are about as fun to be around as the TSA. They know what rights you have and they know how to abuse them. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDhjNF9eUQ ). The resulting situation is just a mess.

3) Gang filled remnants of what was once a city. Here, enforcement is block by block by whomever controls the block with treaties, alliances, and an understanding that one does NOT mess with the mafia copters or ground cars because they will erase your block from the map and let the next group move in to what used to be your territory.

4) A private town/enclave. Once you're inside the wall, you're either a citizen for life or you're watched 24/7. This is a peaceful place and there isn't a lot of need for an active police presence.

In all 4 cases, the presence, abilities, and load-outs of the police are likely to be different despite these towns all being connected to varying degrees.

Posted by: Dahrken Sep 2 2011, 05:15 AM

I don't think it should be part of a somewhat mandatory package for a guy just fresh out of the academy, as the recording/perception enhancement function of those can be done by worn equipment that is cheaper to buy, has no implantation cost and is easier to upgrade/alter/modify or recycle to a new user if for whatever reason someone quits.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 2 2011, 05:59 AM

Whatever other skills a cop has, he needs to be able to twirl his pistol like TJ Lazer before holstering it.

I will say about the physical fitness of cops - most younger detectives I see around the local station house seem to be pretty fit. I am thinking the difficulty of making detective tends to favor the more aggressive and disciplined street cops, who also are probably more likely to keep themselves in shape.

Those street cops you see with the gut hanging over their belts? Probably are gonna stay street cops for the rest of their career.

I do see older detectives that let themselves go, too, though. I suppose after you make detective the years of endless work hours, stress, coffee and donuts, no time to exercise, etc takes it's toll.



-k

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 2 2011, 06:30 AM

I'd say you're standard street cop in SR would have above average physical attributes(especially if we're talking Knight Errant public security), but wouldn't have 'ware as part of their standard package. I'm sure after a few years of service they can totally get a company discount on 'ware and a payment plan, but no way Ares is going to shell out to augment street cops when most of them spend more time writing parking tickets than fighting.

Now detectives are going to likely have some augmentation, and SWAT definatly will(most SWAT is ex-military).

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 2 2011, 06:34 AM

I disagree heartily, augmenting it's officers save KE and other law enforcement company money, especially when you factor in economies of scale. Frankly i'm so sick of this ware is too expensive or inconvenient mindset, because frankly compared to the other expenses incurred to feed, house, train, and medicate a police officer up to readiness for duty a ware package is pretty trivial.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 2 2011, 06:46 AM

Yes, but why would Knight Errant, a subsidiary of Ares, spend the money to augment every officer when most of the officers are never going to see any combat, especially when they can try to get the officer to pay for part of their 'ware through some sort of "price sharing" BS routine that they can use to try to convince the cops to spend their own money to get Knight Errant brand 'ware.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 2 2011, 07:34 AM

Actually it's an established part of fluff to have most, if not all corps have their corpers pay for the entirety of the cost of any 'ware they will need. Of course, the wageslaves can't, and thus will likely be caught up in a debt for years on end. The corp will retain ownership rights to the 'ware until the debt is paid off. Guess what this entails.
Often, a lot of it will be recylced from earlier employees, drastically cutting down on cost. Not to mention often the corp will be implanting its own 'ware, making the up front costs really slim for them already. Note that a set of cybereyes with low light and thermo will run for :nuyen:2500, or about a month's worth of salary. Wired Reflexes 1 are only 4 times that, while Muscle Replacement only runs double that per rating. And these are consumer prices, where the consumer price of surgery is factored in. Cut half out for surgery, half for the point that it's their own ware, and you're looking at around 10k to get every rookie some very tricked out eyes, Wired Reflexes 1 and 4 extra Strength and Agility. And make them indebted say 20k to you, if you're feeling fair.

Also, cops will very rarely be writing parking tickets, as GridGuide will gladly do so for them. Automated and free.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 2 2011, 08:38 AM

I think there might be a discounted in our opinions though. I don't think you're average police officer would have any combat enhancing 'ware. Stuff like cybereyes, datajacks, and internal commlinks I can see because everyone gets those, but even in shadowrun I can't see a situation where all officers get combat 'ware. Experianced officers, detectives, SWAT, and the people who go into Z-zones yes, but not you're average guy who's job is primarly to walk around and make it look like there is a police presence. Combat 'ware is illegal in most areas of the UCAS, and I don't think most cities will tolerate a police force where every single officer has wired reflexes. If an officer elects to take advantage of discounted 'ware thats one thing, but required 'ware implemented into every officer is another.

Posted by: Traul Sep 2 2011, 08:47 AM

That's pretty much the Lone Star SWAT suite you're describing, so it is more than what the standard cop will have. Moreover, Lonestar cops are established to rely on Jazz rather than Wired Reflexes.

It might be different for KE, though, since they are backed by a AAA so they can get all their ware internally.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 2 2011, 09:22 AM

It is 100% illegal for a civilian to do a bunch of stuff a police officer does every day, carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle, possesion of a concealed firearm, speeding, basuc assault (described as physical contact with a person against their will) and on and on and on. Just because something is illegal for civilians to have, which by the way much of the ware is restricted not forbidden, doesn't mean it makes sense for it to be out of the reach of government proxies.

A officers day to day if not week to week job has the potential to come into conflict with someone, that some is usually not a Shadowrruner so their not going to be wared up to that level, but conflict is a natural unfortunate result of many of their encounters. It would be foolish, as well as expensive to not prepare them for that.

Posted by: Kirk Sep 2 2011, 12:09 PM

I don't think they'd cyber the officers at corporate expense right out of (or even in) the academy. Not even if it's "we pay you reimburse".

The big issue is failure during probation. For two to six months you don't know if the rookie's going to stick. You don't want police wares on the street.

Second reason is potential advancements. For the first six months or so the officers don't know enough about the system -- and the system doesn't know enough about them -- to think about departments. While the theory is that an officer is an officer where-ever he serves, vice needs different tools from homicide which is different yet from ... well, you get the idea. Several departments use undercover, and it's a lot easier to not have to remove "police property" RFIDs.

Cost... it's cheaper than a year of medical and such, but it's still money. . Corps are still driven by their bureacratic accountants. Those have a habit of pinching pennies and tossing dollars. In this context, the gear for the majority is "pennies". It's also technically not necessary. Every time they go under the knife there's a potential of loss. But the big deal is the green eyeshade crowd pinching those pennies.

Posted by: suoq Sep 2 2011, 12:44 PM

I see the cybering of the police to be a logical extension of cybering other similar professions.

The first to be cybered are going to be injured soldiers who get augmented instead of replaced. It's much more cost effective to slap on a new better arm/eye/whatever and send them out to do their job. Eventually, you're going to have ex-military who make the cops looks like wussies and the police are going to need to hire ex-military just to deal with ex-military.

In a similar vein, we're likely to see cybered fire fighters. Someone is going to need an internal air tank and cybereyes and they're going to be much better at their job than they were before the accident. Cybered fire fighters are simply better at their job than mundane fire fighters or droids.

Some of the earliest "preliminary cybering" of these dangerous professions will include skillwires and wired reflexes, a pair of items whose cost/benefit is goiung to make it attractive to military, police, and firefighters. By this time, the people people in charge of the police will be well aware of the benefits these other profession receive and they may well have some cybered ex-military on their payrolls. In the meantime, skillwires are becoming common in the civilian population as well. (At least that's how I remember the fluff.)

At some point, it's going to occur to some of these groups that it may well be more effective to cyber volunteers up-front rather than waiting for them to get injured in the line of duty. (Welcome to the FDNY, here's your internal air tank and cybereyes.) Some specific areas will want cybered officers over non-cybered officers. (Lone Star has the contract to guard this facility inside a town that Knight Errant otherwise has the contract for. Your job is to keep all unauthorized people, including KE cops, out. To this end, you're being offered Wired reflexes as well as other enhancements at no cost as part of the contract.)

This doesn't mean all cops will be cybered, but as I said above, I don't think all cops will be uniform. I think each area has to make their own decisions and having all the areas be the same and making the same decisions seems odd to me. This is simply the way I see some units going and why.

Posted by: Traul Sep 2 2011, 12:51 PM

This does not have to be implanted, it works as armor accessories too. Strangely, the firefighter suit in Arsenal does not include an air tank, only a gas mask Damn cheap politicians!

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 2 2011, 01:03 PM

This.
As I've demonstrated, it's likely a net profit for a corp to implant its own ware into its employees without any futher qualifications. For a mere raw investment of 10k nuyen (not even discounting another 50% for being own produce), the R4 Muscle Replacement will give the officer the edge in almost all of the things he'll be doing when getting into situations where he gets to exercise his reasons for existence. The boost to his ability to fire his guns, while minimising the risk of collateral damage. The boost to his ability to use that baton to maximum effect. The boost to his ability to overpower and restrain someone. The boost to his ability to catch up to that person when he runs and get around obstacles in his path in the process. The benefit of 4 extra dice on all of these is pretty massive when dealing with the typical low level gangers.

The situations calling for there actions are the high risk situations the officer is trained for.
They're called high-risk, because there's substantial risk involved for the officer. From severe injury to death. Any of these could result in the loss of investment in training in this person. A training that is worth substantially more than the cost of the ware. Thus, it is worth it by far.

This all holds doubly true for Wired Reflexes, which are half the cost.

In SWAT members, I would expect to see heavier 'ware like Bone Lacing pop up, which is a tad too expensive for the street cop, but for those definitely getting in the line of fire, it pays off.
For HTRT, which is the next step up, much heavier 'ware should be no exception, because these are the people used to combat runner-level people.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Sep 2 2011, 01:10 PM

Eh, why just give the 'ware to the employee.

Offer it to them with an attractive installment payment plan. Have the job pressures basically force them into accepting, or get left behind. Then the poor sap finds the contract effectively locks him into near indentured servitude to the corp.

Far more dystopian and cyberpunk.




-k

Posted by: UmaroVI Sep 2 2011, 01:41 PM

It's mentioned in Lone Wolf that construction workers normally get cybered. In a world where ordinary people get 'ware to do their ordinary, not-particularly-life-threatening jobs more efficiently, it would be totally bizarre for the cops to not have basic, cheap cyberware that makes them better at their life-threatening job.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 2 2011, 01:48 PM

While this is very true, and more likely, there are times when the ware would look free, but comes with a quiet raise to your "taxes" payable to the corp family. That sounds more dystopian.

Posted by: Seerow Sep 2 2011, 03:33 PM

Who said anything about offering? If they want the job, they will get this cyber, and yes, the corp will front the cost to get it/install it if you need help. However if you are getting it through the corp, you can guarantee that the cyber is used, from the last schlub who had your job and got slagged, and on your salary, with the cost of the ware, plus the interest on the loan, your grandchildren will be paying for that cyber. It's a little better if you have the money saved up to spring for your own, but good luck getting hold of that money.

Posted by: Critias Sep 2 2011, 03:45 PM

While I can agree that some cyberware makes sense for quite a few jobs, and I enjoy the invisible shackles of debt and loan repayment and such as much as the next guy -- the fact remains that often it just doesn't make sense, still. In SR4A, for better or worse, there's an awful lot of stuff that doesn't need to be implanted any more because it offers the exact same benefits at a lower up-front cost and without tossing in surgery costs, lost Essence, time under the knife, or removal costs when someone quits.

Sure, cybereyes are pretty affordable and it's cool to think about a corp making someone take 'em and then the corp taking 'em back later and blah blah blah dystopia. But why would they go through the trouble if they can just give someone a pair of goggles or glasses, instead? They don't need to shackle people through holding onto them by their chrome, they already hold onto them by everything else in their life, so if the exact same benefits can be done in a cheaper way (glasses instead of eyes, for instance), there's no reason for the corp to bust out the cyberware. Hell, they could give 'em the glasses they need to do their job, and still charge them just for the glasses (an equipment deposit, or daily rental fee, or whatever else they wanted), and stay pretty cutthroat and asshole-ish.

I mean, chrome up your beat cops if you want your bet cops chromed. It's been perfectly in-canon since the old (and excellent) Lone Star sourcebook, if one assumes that other companies follow similar guidelines. Recycled chrome happens, and has been happening for decades. Some augmentation in the workplace (LEO or otherwise) certainly makes sense. But some of the suggestions being made just don't fly, or at least not for the reasons they seem to be suggesting.

Mandatory cyberware as part of the company's bottom line should only be happening when, well, that mandatory cyberware actually benefits the bottom line. If glasses or earbuds are cheaper, if external biomonitors are cheaper, if Jazz is cheaper than Wired 1 in every cop...just admit you're up-gunning the opposition to account for the power level you want in your own game (which is perfectly valid) instead of trying to jump through hoops to justify it.

Posted by: suoq Sep 2 2011, 04:17 PM

I gave cybereyes to firefighters because they don't have the vulnerabilities real eyes have. They are, for that job, better than natural plus gear. The same thing goes with the air tanks. External air tanks aren't light, inhibit mobility, and need to be worked around. Internal air tanks are better for the job.

Note that many pieces of cyberware are not particularly expensive. An internal air tank costs 650Y. I'm not sure what the conversion rates are, but a SCBA kit for a firefighter costs roughly $5000+ ( http://www.edarley.com/draeger-airbossr-scba-5822.html ). And why I don't see the point in cybering EVERY cop, soldier, or rescue worker, I believe that many of them are going to get it somewhere along the way. I also believe that many people have gear and training from past jobs and past experiences. There should be a lot of people alive who remember wars, riots, and bad times and why they may now be bartenders, taxi drivers, low end security guards, car salesmen, middle managers, etc. that doesn't mean that they've always been those people.

This isn't jumping through hoops to justify power levels. This is what happens every day as people change careers and build new lives for themselves. And as that level of cyberware trickles into the civilian population, the police are going to find it more and more necessary to employ people who can effectively deal with such issues. Police are going to want to employ cybered ex-military because they can benefit from someone else's investment.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 2 2011, 04:32 PM

You try breaking out into a sprint after that shoplifter, traversing half the mall to catch him, while keeping those glasses on your face.
Also, glasses put a barrier between the wearer and people he interacts with. A cop needs to be accessible. Open to the public. People need to be able to look him in the eyes. Without having even a transparent bit of glass in the way, that's constantly reading off the KE news ticker.

Posted by: Critias Sep 2 2011, 04:44 PM

I'm sure that by the mid 2070s someone will have invented a glasses strap.

Accessible? Open to the public? What?

Look at the helmets these guys wear in, I dunno, almost all the artwork, ever. How accessible and open to the public are they? How interested in being accessible and open to the public do they look?

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 2 2011, 04:53 PM

And have the glasses fall off your nose anyway, making you lose 95% of the AR feed that's keeping you updated on the situation?


*grin* True enough.
But that doesn't fly in Fun City.

Posted by: suoq Sep 2 2011, 05:12 PM

Note: Police Car camera systems cost $3000 ( http://www.martelelectronics.com/PVS.html )
Rating 3 cyber eyes only cost 1000 AND (unlike glasses) record what the officer sees for another 500 you can record what the officer hears as well, something earbuds don't do.

Posted by: EKBT81 Sep 2 2011, 05:33 PM

Maybe LS would like their uniforms to look like Judge Dredd's uniform, but don't dare to go all the way there because of the threat of a trademark infringement lawsuit from whatever megacorp holds the rights to the 2000AD IP.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 2 2011, 05:34 PM

They're just not cabale of doing anything spiffy by then. Low Light will run you another 1000. But don't forget that a major chunk of those costs is the cost of the implantation surgery, not the ware itself. Plus, that's consumer price. Corps, especially those running their own clinics and making their own 'ware, will be much, much cheaper off.
Not to mention shoving the cost off onto the employee in the end (with interest) anyway.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 2 2011, 09:21 PM

Errr question, why does Joe non magic user give a flying frag about essence loss?

Further on the glasses versus eyes, if as a person who wears glasses if I could get a set of implanted eyes with perfect vision plus low light, and all the other amenities plus ballistic grade covers I'd do it in a heartbeat and I think most other people would. At some point people got hung up on the min max and poor game design and forgot the great benefits cybereyes and ears have over external add ons, you always have them and they always work. Only in the the flavorless mess of magicrun 4th edition is that so casually overlooked.

Also why would a major chunk of the costs be implantation surgery, it's out patient, if you are a municipality or a corp that has to keep doctors or surgeons ont he payroll anyway the costs once again drops substantially. Or even better just have drones do it because the surgery itself is routine to the point of being trivial.

Um no, again the power level is irrelevant, i just refuse to buy into this make believe that there is this entire cyberware industry that is only supported by shadowrunners and the military there arn't enough shadowrunners and military people for that be the case. Based on current population figures military vets make up about 9% percent of the US population. Cyberware wouldn't exist it's max penetration rate was 9%. So we have a setting disconnect, the cyberware industry does exist, the options are out there and supposedly people have them and realistically as I said, cybereyes are better then glasses or goggles for everyone but a hardcore min-max RPG player, especially when you start to put things like economies of scale and reliability into the picture.

Posted by: Critias Sep 2 2011, 09:36 PM

I'm not saying the industry doesn't exist, and the people don't -- often -- have chrome. I'm saying it shouldn't be mandatory for as many jobs as some people would like to see it mandatory for. Offered? Absolutely. Incentivized? Sure. But not insisted upon.

Especially not in a thread that is (nominally) about kids right out of the academy. Should more cops have cyberoptics and a few other goodies by five years in, or ten? Sure, maybe. But right out the door, while they're still pissing off their FTO and fucking up every ten minutes? I don't think so, personally. Lots of folks wash out that first year, and I can see upgrades like combat 'ware being the carrot on a stick that's dangled in front of them for a while.

Because cybereyes might be "better for everyone but the hardcore min-max RPG player," but that doesn't mean they're better for the company who's paying for them, due to the wonkiness of SR4 making the implanted and non-implanted versions of so many things the exact same. It's a design flaw (in my opinion), but it still exists.

So I just don't see companies forcing their employees to get cyberware in the cases that exist of completely detachable, reusable, company-ownabled, bits of electronics that do the same thing. Obviously you disagree, and that's fine -- it's your game world, run it how you want to run it.

EDIT:

No, it certainly isn't. When these arguments (invariably) turn to things like "every cop should have Wired (1) at least," there is no way you can't discuss what that means to the power level of the game. Or, at least, you should certainly take it into consideration. There has just been, quite literally, a jump up from "most SWAT guys have this cyberware suite to get 2 IPs" to "every beat cop has 2 IPs," and that's a pretty big change in the overall danger -- or power level -- of a campaign.

Again, I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying be aware of why you're doing it, and the repercussions of doing so.

Posted by: TheOOB Sep 3 2011, 06:38 AM

Somewhere along the line I think someone got it into their head that the corps care how effective the police officers are. Drones and computer systems do all the grunt police work, and detectives and SWAT do all the important/dangerous stuff. In 2072 street cops aren't there to suppress crime, they're there to be visible so that Knight Errant can collect a paycheck from the city. It is true that a unformed police presence can reduce crime, and a metahuman can judge peoples attentions and work crowds better than a drone, but they are not hired for their combat or investigative skills, they're hired because if people don't see uniformed officers walking down Pike street they'll hire a different security company.

If a beat cop wants some augmentation so they're more likely to survive their next patrol in the Barrens or so they can eye record their great service while bucking for detective rank, they can spend their own money to do so, and Knight Errant would be happy to sell them the 'ware, but they arn't going to waste time and money augmenting someone who's just is to fill a uniform.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 3 2011, 07:08 AM

And now we've got the "Corps are actively stupid in their corruption" viewpoint in to go with the cyber hate, we can close the thread.

Needless to say I disagree, places that are going to be patrolled are going to be patrolled effectively, places that are not going to be patrolled are not going to be patrolled rather then not patrolled effectively. THere's not a lot of hard data to support either claim.

Posted by: Critias Sep 3 2011, 03:54 PM

EDIT.

Never mind. Whatever. If it's my posts that somehow came off as "cyber hate," I apologize for being unclear.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 03:56 PM

Hey, I've been trying to keep nice and polite about police officers despite having been raised by a Hippie, an Earth Child, and a Biker! It hasn't been easy.

...

Oh, the other people. Never mind.

Posted by: Traul Sep 3 2011, 04:05 PM

You mean you have been raised by the Village People?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 04:21 PM

Only less Gay.

The Biker of the Village People came out of the closet as being Hetero, BTW.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 3 2011, 08:09 PM

They didn't. I just think you're underestimating the effect of utilising amazingly cheap cyber can have on multiple levels, especially if it's produced in house.

- Knight Errant is a major calling card for Ares, prime developper and producer of "defense" equipment. They're pretty much the most visible element they have, short of AR-spamming and the Predator's immortal rep. These guys are out on the streets, and can't be unseen by turning AR off.
- Ares has a reputation of being the best in the field of defense to uphold. Next to an image of being a no-holds-barred, effective, completely unsubtle powerhouse.
- They have recently taken over the Seattle contract from the Star, and have a reputation to establish here. Should they do this well, more sprawls -or even countries- may switch to them.
- Contrary to the Star, they're backed by Ares, and have substantially more resources to help them in their job, both monetary and logistically. If KE needs a special kind of weapon, another branch of Ares can develop them and supply them at base price. The same holds true for 'ware suites.

KE can have the suite I mentioned before developed. It would cost them 9k nuyen per implantation, plus the surgeon's salary. That isn't even two months worth of salary for someone working a 40 hour job according to RC, which is about a part time job for any proper wageslave. For the average employee, it should be more like a month and a half's worth.
This nets them the reputation of being the biggest and baddest thing on the streets out there, making the Star look like amateurs beside them. This not only vastly increases the opinion the general public has of them, but will also make the average ganger think six times before picking a fight with them, likely lowering crime levels without anyone directly intervening. When that average ganger does decide to pick that fight, the chances of the KE officer coming out on top are so substantially improved to almost be guaranteed. This makes KE lose less officers in the line of duty, which on one hand cuts down on costs to train new recruits, on costs for medical treatment, and payment to family in case of death, and on the other hand further reinforces the image of being the best with actual statistics.
And people in charge of overseeing their district's security contracts will take note of all this.

Beside all this, it's also a source of major publicity for Ares' cyberware division.

For Lone Star, I can see the low and non-cybered beat cops. For Ares, that really stretches believability for me.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 3 2011, 08:14 PM

"Ares, we practically are the military." *Suit whispers into ear of PR man, "Sorry, correction. We actually are the military. We just bought out the Army."