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Posted by: Tanegar Sep 4 2011, 07:53 PM

At first, I didn't have a problem with the idea of technomancers, but the more I read and think about them, the less I like them. First, I don't think they add anything worthwhile to the game. In a setting without magic, where TMs would be the wizard-analogue, sure, I could see that; but in Shadowrun I just think they're stepping on the toes of two other archetypes (magicians and hackers) without bringing anything really distinctive to the table. Second, I think they violate, or at least erode, one of the core conceits of the Sixth World, the idea that tech is tech and magic is magic and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Overall, I just think the whole technomancer idea is a bad one from the word go, at least in Shadowrun. What does Dumpshock think?

Posted by: LostProxy Sep 4 2011, 08:03 PM

My group treated the technomancers sort of like adepts except instead of magic they reprogrammed their brains to do stuff they normally couldn't. It went nicely and kept with the idea of them being biological computers and not magical but an AI experiment. Required a lot of rewriting as some Echoes became powers for them to have from the get go. Made it so their biological node was hackable but instead of a Hacker being able to actually get into it he could only crash it causing a load of pain for the TM and for them to temporarily lose their powers until they "rebooted." They could still interact with technology but they were less magical hacker. For example one of the powers we wrote for them was being able to disguise themselves or something small they were holding so they appeared however they wanted on any sensor /AR without needing to hack/edit it. In a world like SR with just about everyone using AR it was pretty nice.

This came from our gripe that TMs were really only good at one thing and that one thing meant we couldn't go on missions that took them out of that element because they would immediately become a lot less useful. Everyone had a strong secondary skill set except the techno.

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 4 2011, 08:26 PM

I really don't see the gripe against them.
A techno is able to bring a much, much different flavour to his schtick than a hacker is. And really, a technomancer is not a mage. He doesn't do magic. He can't even influence the world beyond electronic devices, short of some hefty Echoes. Or through rigging, of course.

Also, a techno can have plenty room for a secondary skillset with mediocre dicepools. Just keep to the 'mental' skills for them. You'll want the attributes anyway. Also, with the way Command works, not to mention Machine sprites, you don't so much need a secondary skillset. You get drones to work those, and can have the sprite's Diagnostics help out yourself and teammates substantially. A rating 6 sprite will on average add 4 dice to someone's use of any electronic device. Apply that to, say, a smartgun and you're golden. If you take up a few ranks in Pistols, you could even make a good shot without having inane ammounts of Agility.

Posted by: suoq Sep 4 2011, 08:28 PM

To me it's no different from having aspected magicians or aspected background count.

My main annoyance is that they're defined as rare and desirable commodities by corporations. It's like having a prince or princess in a fantasy RPG. You end up a with choice of treating them like a special snowflake or, for some unexplained reason, not treating them like a special snowflake.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 08:32 PM

They're Otaku 2.0. Period.

And I think Metaplot is going to make a big deal of what's going on with them, as Netcat's morning sickness just might prove...

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 4 2011, 08:37 PM

So are mages.
And really, so are the guys running around with dicepools in their 20s to shoot stuff, talk to people, etc.

Shadowrunners good enough to live past a couple of succesful runs are a rare and valuable commodity by definition.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 08:57 PM

What, 50% die on their first run? 90% within the first year? IIRC, at least.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 4 2011, 09:22 PM

In my games, likely as well. It's not just die, but captured, too, that puts a krinkle in the runner's rep. My players have been successful in surviving the first runs, but that is only because I send them after low-rank opposition at first. No AAA, or their subsidiaries, usually, but instead gangs, and mall break-ins. Maybe an inspection job.
Sadly, the mall break-in ended in failure because no one turned off their commlinks. And even said they have them in active or passive mode. Led to the drone being hacked, and the police called. A failed (secret) edge test brought a patrol Mage, which managed to corner the team's mage (Yes, he was less powerful then the PC), and forced the PC to run.

Posted by: ravensmuse Sep 4 2011, 09:40 PM

I was always a fan of Rob Boyle's theory: that the rising mana levels interacted with technology and created something the world hadn't seen before.

Otaku were UGE, technomancers were goblinization, and that left whatever SURGE might be. If that's ever followed up on.

I realize that I'm in the minority on that though.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 4 2011, 09:41 PM

What about Protosapient DIs and Emergent animals?

Posted by: Sengir Sep 4 2011, 09:42 PM

Technomancers don't do magic, period.

Some of their abilities look like magic from an OT point of view, but inside the universe these clearly are non-magical and the technobabble about "bioelectric fields" et al. is a perfectly good explanation.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 4 2011, 09:55 PM

Where exactly does it say magic and machine will never mix? They may not get along well, but they are able to work together. A mechanic can use magic and AR to help his repair efforts, for instance. Magic and medical technology can get along, as well, if only because the basics of magical healing can only be used once. The Magic Fingers spell speciically says that as long as you can see the area in general, you can make the small movements happen even if observing the specifics through only technological sensors.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 10:02 PM

Significantly advanced and accelerated evolution indistinguishable from magic?

Posted by: Sengir Sep 4 2011, 10:13 PM

Can't manipulate mana, works without mana. That's quite distinguishing if you ask me

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 4 2011, 10:17 PM

However, it seems to work rather well without electronics, if two technomancers are within reach of each other. Sounds like limited telepathy to me.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 10:31 PM

...

...

...

DAMN YOU BRAIN!!!

Posted by: Mardrax Sep 4 2011, 11:22 PM

Eehrm.
Nerves work in part by passing an electric current along them.
The brain is nothing but a cluster of nerves.
The body has its own bioelectric field.

How is this functioning without electronics?

Posted by: CanRay Sep 4 2011, 11:56 PM

Hardware, software, wetware.

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 5 2011, 12:23 AM

At no point does magic interact directly with technology. The adept mechanic? His magic makes him supernaturally skilled, but it doesn't do the work for him. Magical healing? It heals the injured regardless of whether or not mundane healing is applied. The two never interact. Magic Fingers? Doesn't do anything you couldn't do with your own fingers. Telekinesis is telekinesis, whether it's juggling cars or pressing buttons.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 5 2011, 12:24 AM

Non-organic, electronic devides then

Posted by: Krojar Sep 5 2011, 12:59 AM

If anyone noticed the "optional rules" in Unwired for technomancers, I like to think that in the canon that's what Technos can do (better Attack protection, difficult to analyze, immune to scanning/nuke/defusing/crashing, unbreakable encryption, and superior trace) making it perfectly reasonable to be both rare and extremely sought after. Of course I also recognize putting that in game is grossly overpowered (unless the TM quality is boosted up to 20 BP or more)

Posted by: CanRay Sep 5 2011, 01:01 AM

Did you remember to carry the "Fear" and Divide by "Hung up on lamp posts" in that calculation?

Posted by: Krojar Sep 5 2011, 01:09 AM

HAR!

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 5 2011, 01:11 AM

Alternatively, you can tie 'im up, and leave him in the dessert with no electronics for comfort.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 5 2011, 01:16 AM

Yeah, but it's hard to find a desert in Seattle.

Posted by: HunterHerne Sep 5 2011, 01:45 AM

I hear the ocean/harbour can make do in a moment, too. Natural Wireless inhibitor and all.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 5 2011, 02:52 PM

Which is really no different than Mages, as far as desireability goes. Mages and Technomancers are the same brand of Special Snowflake.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 5 2011, 03:00 PM

Thanks TJ, back to my corner I go...

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 5 2011, 07:36 PM

If you use thos optional rules then all the griping people due do about technomances vs hackers will be true.

I for my part really like Technomancers, but I really liked Otaku. The one thing that tehcnomancers lack now is their tie in to the metaplot now that the big AI's are gone. Mages are to dragons as Otaku are to AI's worked for me on a couple levels.

Edit Addendum: Also if you can slave things to the biological node then you really should be able to hack the biological node is my opinion.

Posted by: KCKitsune Sep 5 2011, 08:06 PM

To me, a Technomancer's powers are psionic based. A TM's powers work no matter where they are. You're a technomancer in space... no problem. Take a mage and put him in orbit (and not near another mana field)... bad Juju... VERY bad Juju.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 5 2011, 09:08 PM

Of course, TMs generate an electromagnetic field just like any device able of sending a wireless signal. That's not exactly magic.
Psionics on the other hand are mages, hence their powers don't work in space.

(Although I dislike this whole "bioelectric field" thing, too, IMO technos should require a datajack or similar like their ancestors).

Posted by: Miri Sep 5 2011, 11:18 PM

Skinlinks and the Skinlink Echo.

Posted by: KCKitsune Sep 6 2011, 12:40 AM

No, that was FASA being fracking stupid.

A technomancer's abilities are Psionic in nature.

There is NO way that a human mind could normally do what a technomancer can do. Once you add in Echos... their abilities are Psionic because they work in space.

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 6 2011, 12:45 AM

Check Street Magic, p. 45 (in the blue-cover FanPro printing; not sure what page in the orange-cover Catalyst printing). "Psionics" is explicitly a magical tradition, albeit one whose practitioners deny the existence of magic.

Posted by: KCKitsune Sep 6 2011, 02:27 AM

Oh, Tanegar, I know that FASA put that into Awakening, New Magic in 2057, but it is still stupid.

Posted by: Krojar Sep 6 2011, 03:27 AM

I believe one of the JackPoint users point out that one theory is that TMs have always existed and that previous instances of psionics who could speak to each other telepathically were actually TMs. It is only with the WMI that their powers have an outlet.

Posted by: Tanegar Sep 6 2011, 09:32 AM

Why? I find it quite an elegant solution. Rather than clutter up the system with a completely new mechanism, they just said, "Psychics are mages who choose not to believe in magic." You can still play a "psychic," and in-universe only those well-versed in magical theory will be able to argue the point with you.

Posted by: Sengir Sep 6 2011, 10:27 AM

Repeat after me:
Electro. Magnetic. Field.

There is nothing psionic or otherwise magic about a TM's abilities, unless you consider a radio or wifi connection magical, too. Yes, a human emitting an EM field which can be consciously manipulated requires some suspension of disbelief, and echoes like Skinlink are downright impossible -- in other words, TMs are no different from nanites, bioelectricity-powered cyberlimbs, or the non-echo skinlink which permeates clothing.

Posted by: KCKitsune Sep 6 2011, 09:51 PM

Still kind of stupid. They could have solved the problem by saying that Psionics doesn't exist. It would have left them wiggle room if they wanted to add it in later.



OK Sengir, answer me these three questions:

1. How does a technomancer extend his EM field as far as he does?
2. How can a technomancer affect the Matrix without any software?
3. How does a Technomancer's Echos work?

A Mage's powers work by magic powered by the Mana field. A technomancer's abilities work no matter where they are.

So Sengir, what handwavium does a TM use to Do His Thing™?

My answer is Psionics. Your answer?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 6 2011, 10:18 PM

CyberKinesis... Easiest Answer there is.
Or the word that they used previously... VirtuaKinesis...

No Need for Magic OR Psionics (which is Magic by SR Definition, Fanmade stuff notwithstanding).

Posted by: Sengir Sep 6 2011, 11:56 PM

1. Because it has sufficient field strength, duh
2. Input-Process-Output. Only that in case of TMs, they do the processing with their brain and not on a computer.
3. They get better at what they do, or, as already stated, use the same handwavium SR uses elsewhere


This is just pointless to discuss. Canon explicitly states that TMs emit an EM field. The field can be measured, jammed, and otherwise interacted with just as an everyday commlink's field. Without an X-ray or assensing, there is no way to distinguish a TM from a person with an implanted link. All their special abilities and echos are explained as neural changes or stuff with their bio-electric field. Nothing, anywhere, at any time, supports the your hypothesis.

Posted by: suoq Sep 7 2011, 02:50 AM

Technomancery.

Why would it have to be be anything we have a name for today? Sure, maybe stuff works in ways analogous to a Tesla Coil or a Theremin. Or maybe it works off of some sort of electromagnetic field discovery that we haven't made yet and due to the separation of the Shadowrun world and our own, we never will.

Posted by: Nyost Akasuke Sep 7 2011, 05:23 AM

I consider it to be a magical effect (in essence), various situations and ambient mana levels sparking a change in genetic astral shadows. Since Augmentation seems to imply (or speculate) that these genetic astral shadows and metagenes cause UGE, Goblinzation, and (possibly?) SURGE, I find it more likely that Technomancers, while definitely not being magical themselves, are spawned from mana/astral-based phenomenon. After all, if these astral shadows of DNA are significant enough to turn an average human into a purty Ork or weird Fish-Man, I don't see why they also couldn't influence the Technomancer's physical design to adapt to the Matrix.